Oh, those damn Republicans! (updated 15aug13)

George Rebane

My friend RL Bob Crabb, a man with a considerable trumpet hereabouts, put up this cartoon in today’s (10aug13) Union.  As I’ve opined in the past, Bob is a self-declared middle roader who nevertheless has a pronounced list to port, as is evident from his excellent double entendre offering during our county’s elephant ride contentious fair.


So here we see a number of ideological positions all cleverly wrapped up into a recalcitrant pachyderm that doesn’t want to budge from ground zero.  Now way back when, humorists and keen social scene observers like Will Rogers and Mark Twain thought it a great benefit to the country when Congress was deadlocked or in recess.  And most folks across the land had the same thought, since they all knew that ‘do nothing’ legislatures could also do to meddle in their affairs and lighten their pocketbooks.  Those days are gone with almost half of Americans paying no federal and most state taxes, and at least one in seven getting regular care packages from Uncle Sam.  When it comes to government, bigger is better.

Bob’s graphic reminds us that the more common mind today blames Republicans for causing the problems and then impeding the fix through higher taxes on the wealthy (and the rest of us taxpayers).  Republicans are standing in the way of continuing our relentless borrowing binge that is making the US into a world class bargain basement economy.  The dimwitted Republicans are pushing for growth as our country’s salvation, instead of appreciating those exquisitely placed and soon-to-stimulate trillions (honest Injun!). It’s the Republicans who are throwing sand into that smooth running, well-oiled machine called Obamacare.  Then the mean-spirited Republicans are even trying to get the newly enrolled millions of SNAP devotees to snap out of it.  And to put a bow on it, we all know that if anything goes awry in the coming months, the Republicans are to blame.

Guilty as charged!  Next case please.

[15aug13 update]  Louisiana state senator Elbert Guillory recently switched parties.  His reasons for doing so are edifying.  Let him tell you in his own words (here).  I think we'll send him a contribution.

 

Comments

[Ben Emery]

Republicans are unabashed defenders of big business/ industry. That is their problem and increasingly the Democrats are falling into that camp due to the diminished numbers of labor unions and the increase cost of campaigns and party politics.

Republicans sell the people on the idea that back in the day or good old days America was much better off. Back in the day or good old days being around 1870's before those pesky women had the right to vote, worker rights were a pipe dream, banks had no regulations, Anti Trust/ Competition laws didn't exist, whites were the only people allowed at higher education institutions, and through Jim Crow laws undeserving people of color didn't have a say in our government despite their guarantee rights through the 14th amendment.

Subjects to citizens and participatory form of government is what the radical founders put into motion with their Declaration Of Independence and the US Constitution. It took over 150 years for full voting equality. Since the shift to a corporatist party in the 1970's the Republican Party has been trying to return us to my version of good old days. Voter suppression has been front and center the last decade pushed by ALEC and Republican Party.

[Ben Emery]

"my version of good old day"

Should be

"my republican version of the good old days"

[fish]

Republicans are unabashed defenders of big business/ industry. That is their problem and increasingly the Democrats are falling into that camp due to the diminished numbers of labor unions and the increase cost of campaigns and party politics.

Republicans sell the people on the idea that back in the day or good old days America was much better off. Back in the day or good old days being around 1870's before those pesky women had the right to vote, worker rights were a pipe dream, banks had no regulations, Anti Trust/ Competition laws didn't exist, whites were the only people allowed at higher education institutions, and through Jim Crow laws undeserving people of color didn't have a say in our government despite their guarantee rights through the 14th amendment.

Subjects to citizens and participatory form of government is what the radical founders put into motion with their Declaration Of Independence and the US Constitution. It took over 150 years for full voting equality. Since the shift to a corporatist party in the 1970's the Republican Party has been trying to return us to my version of good old days. Voter suppression has been front and center the last decade pushed by ALEC and Republican Party.

Ben the New Republic called...they want you to stop posting their stuff without attribution.

[Todd Juvinall]

BenE, where do you think the money comes from to run the country? Half of the people pay zip fed taxes so where does it come from?

[Todd Juvinall]

On the topic I am with Will Rogers and Mark Twain. I recall when the legislature here in the Golden State tried to pass a rule a legislator could only offer one or two bills a session. It went nowhere of course.

[Ben Emery]

George,
Spam filter once again. Todd your answer is will be revealed when George releases my comment. My battery is about dead so I will give you a Woodie Guthrie send off for the day.

So long, it's been good to know yuh;
So long, it's been good to know yuh;
So long, it's been good to know yuh.
This dusty old dust is a-gettin' my home,
And I got to be driftin' along.

[George Rebane]

BenE 1219pm - could find nothing of yours in the spam filter. Please post it again.

[Ben Emery]

Todd,
"Half of the people pay zip fed taxes"

Wrong! Anyone who receives a paycheck pays federal taxes into FICA.

Taxes are to maintain or improve infrastructure or the commons that our predecessors built or maintained so we would have a functional nation. What the Republican Party has done since the 70's is to abandon or work against funding of public infrastructure or the commons, which has led us to where we are today. Where we privatize public services and infrastructure at 10 times the cost to the taxpayers. I put at least half if not more of the blame on the Democratic Party for leaving the average people of America behind to pursue big dollars instead of trying to win votes by good governance. Average people of America are Republican, Democratic, Independents, or people who don't vote at all by choice or not. The Democratic Party for about 40-50 years represented the best interests of all of these people and that is why in the time frame we saw the largest strongest middle class emerge in world history. That is why in that time from the D's controlled the Executive branch and the house of representatives for decades with the exception of Eisenhower administration. Eisenhower administrations were more liberal/ progressive than any administration since Nixon.

$0.00 is what people who receive their unearned income through capital gains/ dividends pay into FICA.

So your statement that 50% pay zip in federal taxes isn't just wrong it is ignorant of how our nation works. It is weird how talking points start replacing critical thinking and we regurgitate them without a second thought.

[George Rebane]

BenE 0135pm - Have no idea how long you've labored under this progressive belief, but FICA has nothing to do with maintaining or improving infrastructure. Its funds go into the underfunded ponzi schemes known as Social Security and the designated benefits program called Medicare. 47% of Americans paid no federal income tax, and 14% paid neither income nor payroll taxes, thus sayeth the Brookings Institute -
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxtopics/federal-taxes-households.cfm

Time to update the ol' knowledge base.

[Ben Emery]

George,
As you might suspect I reduced my comment when I recreated it, which made it considerably shorter. I worked it down the tax I voluntarily pay when asked what type of animal are you feeding this hay? Most people will say some sort of livestock to avoid the tax but I say horses if it is for horses because I want a functional local/ state government.

We were talking federal taxes not income taxes. That is a typical talking point pushed by those who are paid by the establishment/ powers that be. They like to conflate income taxes with all taxes. The only tax the wealthy care about keeping reduced is the income tax since all other taxes they are already exempt or constitute such a small fraction of their income it doesn't matter, less than 1%.

Now on the federal income tax statement. That might be true but in that category are many extremely wealthy people, which in your world view includes corporations. Lets take a look shall we at who really is the freeloaders. 80% of those who don't pay federal income taxes are households that earn less than $30,000 annually. When 50,000 factories shut down and take over 7,000,000 decent paying manufacturing jobs withe them leaving a huge chunk of the blue collar middle class out on a limb I would have to say transnational corporations are to blame more than the workers themselves.

Here are the top ten "people"/ corporations who avoided paying federal income taxes. Now take a look at their profits and calculate how many people at $100k who would pay income tax it would take to match the top ten tax dodgers. Here is the title and excerpt of the article

Corporate Tax Dodgers: 10 Companies and Their Tax Loopholes
April 17, 2013

Bank of America
Had $17.2 billion in profits offshore in 2012 on which it paid no U.S. taxes. Reported it would owe $4.3 billion in U.S. taxes if profits are brought home.

Citigroup
Had $42.6 billion in profits offshore in 2012 on which it paid no U.S. taxes. Reported it would owe $11.5 billion in U.S. taxes if profits are brought home.

ExxonMobil
Paid just a 15% federal income tax rate from 2010-2012, less than half the official 35% corporate tax rate – a tax subsidy of $6.2 billion. Had $43 billion in profits offshore in 2012 on which it paid no U.S. taxes.

FedEx
Made $5.7 billion from 2010-2012 and didn’t pay a dime in federal income taxes. Got a tax subsidy of $2.1 billion. Received $10.3 billion in federal contracts from 2006-2012.

General Electric
Made $88 billion from 2002-2012 and paid just 2.4% in taxes for a tax subsidy of $29 billion. Paid no taxes in 4 years. Had $108 billion in profits offshore in 2012 on which it paid no U.S. taxes. Received $21.8 billion in federal contracts from 2006-2012.

Honeywell
Made $5 billion from 2009-2012 and paid just $50 million in federal income taxes – a tax subsidy of $1.7 billion. Had $11.6 billion in profits offshore in 2012 on which it paid no U.S. taxes. Received $16.7 billion in federal contracts from 2006-2012.

Merck
Made $13.6 billion and paid $2.5 billion in federal income taxes from 2009-2012. Paid an 18.4% federal income tax rate, half the official 35% rate – a tax subsidy of $2.2 billion. Had $53.4 billion in profits offshore in 2012 on which it paid no U.S. taxes. Received $8.7 billion in federal contracts from 2006-2012.

Microsoft
Saved $4.5 billion in federal income taxes from 2009-2011 by transferring profits to a subsidiary in the tax haven of Puerto Rico. Had $60.8 billion in profits stashed offshore in 2012 on which it paid no U.S. taxes; reported it would owe $19.4 billion if profits are brought home.

Pfizer
Received $2.2 billion in federal tax refunds from 2010-2012 while earning $43 billion worldwide even though 40% of its sales are in America. Had $73 billion in profits offshore in 2012 on which it paid no U.S. income taxes. Received $3.4 billion in federal contracts from 2010-2012.

Verizon
Made $19.3 billion in U.S. pretax profits from 2008-2012 but paid no federal income taxes during the period; instead got $535 million in tax rebates. Total tax subsidy: $7.3 billion. Received up to $6 billion in federal contracts from 2011 through 2023.

[George Rebane]

BenE 758pm - You're making it sound as if these corporations were a criminal enterprise. What laws did they break? For what infraction would you indict them?

[Ben Emery]

George,
Once again we are talking about federal income taxes. They broke no law despite making billions and receiving billions in subsides and paying nothing in federal income taxes. How can this be legal? How can you be alright with billion dollar enterprises not paying back into the system in which allowed them to make those kind of profits?

Here is where corporatists don't get progressives. Just because it is legal doesn't mean it is ethical or what is best for the United States of America. This where the difference between liberals and progressives becomes very evident. Liberals will load more and more programs helping those who no longer can afford to live in this corrupt system that benefits the wealthy and large corporations. Progressives want to correct the system to make what these corporations are doing illegal creating a system where people can afford to live. Thus reducing the size and scope of social programs. The wealthy and large corporations may take a hit on their bottom line but as a whole it is better for the entire United States of America.

We have a two party system in place where liberal democrats and corporatist republicans run the two largest institutions in the US. Those two institutions control our government and are beholden to the wealthy and large corporations who fund their institutions and candidates. With this funding are favors in return. The institution has become more important than the good of the nation.

Exxon was subsidized to the tune of $6 billion and that is one company. The entire 2008 federal election spending was around $5 billion. One company with basically tax payer money could have bought off all federal candidates to side with their companies interests. We are basically seeing this take place right before our eyes and with citizens united decision we will actually see less lobbying and more straight up corporate or billionaire sponsored candidates.

I am taking the http:// out of the link so the comment will post.

40 Behind-The-Scenes Billionaires Funding The 2012 Election

www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2012/03/22/40-behind-the-scenes-billionaires-funding-the-2012-election/

Despite the overwhelming amount of this money going to the republican side because they are unabashed corporatist the democrats still control the executive branch, senate, and received 1.5 million more votes for the house. So what is the problem you are probably asking yourself. The democratic leadership is just as corporatist as the republican party but they like to give the illusion of choice so the rhetoric is much different but the policies are very similar when boiled down.

Only in a fascist corporatist state could a company like GE have a year of $108 billion in profits and it be legal for them to pay zero in federal income tax. If this isn't bad enough GE received $22 billion in government contracts.

You might say those who invested into the republican party 2012 lost huge sums of money.

Off the top of my head I believe
If I have a $100 dollars and I lose a dime is equivalent to having $1 billion dollars and losing $100 million. Is losing a dime out of $100 dollars really significant?

[Bonnie McGuire]

I can't believe how blind some people are. Businesses take risks financially and pay taxes. They also provide the jobs for employees who pay taxes. They're the money tree for all those in government. Those in government pay taxes from the taxes collected from the businesses and employees in the private sector. When government gets bigger it has to raise taxes on the businesses and employees in the private sector to pay for the increase of government employees. It can't keep up with the excessive demands of government labor unions. The Feds can print more paper, but cities and states can't, so the Fed baits the hook with grant goodies that require more concessions on the private sector. It's another form of racketeering. Disgusting.

[Bill Tozer]

Bonnie, where have you been?? When the women folk join the forum they show their stanch unabashed solid meddle. They are some of the best commentators on the planet. No nonsense.

As far as the do nothing Congress theme, I see that some of the states who meet just 30 days a year are in pretty good shape. Less chance to mess things up. Opps, that is Stand Your Ground Congress. Was Mr. Crabb referring to Florida and the 30 states that have some form of Stand Your Ground laws? No, can't be. It said Congress, not states.

Mr. Crabb is a fine gentleman, but in this case I feel he is misguided. Who needs Congress to do anything when we have the Executive Order trump card. Lawmakers? Executive Orders don't need no stinkin' laws or lawmakers.

If I was King of the World or Boss of The Planet of the Apes or the Duke of Earl, I would have drawn an elephant with a banner naming it The Fed Government (instead of just that antiquated insignificance thing called Congress). My picture would have this big fat elephant called the Federal Government with the half the masses shoveling food into the Elephant's input and the other half of the unwashed masses shoveling up the dung coming out of its output.

[Bill Tozer]

"I can't believe how blind some people are."

Believe it Bonnie. And there is a lot more where that came from. Fact is stranger than fiction.

[George Rebane]

BenE 115am - "If I have a $100 dollars and I lose a dime is equivalent to having $1 billion dollars and losing $100 million. Is losing a dime out of $100 dollars really significant?"

I think you may be exhibiting some progressive math here Ben. What you meant to say is "equivalent to having $1B and losing $1M". And losing $100M or 10% of $1B is very significant. But then, what's being off 9,900% when we're talking about government finances?

BonnieM 509am - What I'm sure you've noticed in these pages is the almost complete disregard for the notion of risk in the progressive mind. They view risk mainly in terms of what if the government won't/can't pay for that. That risk is somehow connected to profits is a non-starter for them - after all, did not the company's trucks use highways paid for by government? They don't even understand who paid for the roads. And it was all paid out of taxes on profits. Were it up to them, taxes would be paid on revenues (top line), not profits (bottom line). But that is all part of the grand disconnect in the country.

BTW, welcome back.

[Gregory]

Let's see... the corporation income tax is akin to the skimming the Mob did in the back room of the casino. The feds getting a piece off the top before the profits go to the owners of the corporations, be they a 1% of the 1% like a Heinz-Kerry, my 401K or CalSTRS, where taxes would be paid, sometimes soon, sometimes later. But they would be paid.

By my understanding there are a couple things here that Ben is ignoring: one is that the corporate federal tax rate of the US is the highest in the world, so the world's corporations have the biggest incentives here to work the tax laws. Second, we're the only country that, when a corporation makes money from a foreign operation, that paid the taxes of that foreign country where the profit was made, taxes that profit a second time if the corporation tries to bring it home to invest here or disburse to the owners, be they a Heinz-Kerry or the poor widow McGullicuddy and her six kids.

So companies leave the money outside the borders rather than trigger taxes that, no matter the rate, the Bens of the world will think too low.

Why did those horrible companies not pay US Federal income taxes? Because no tax was owed. That doesn't mean billions of Federal, state and local taxes weren't paid by the company directly, or by the owners who paid taxes on dividends or sale of shares.

Isn't it interesting... the Bens are adamant that corporations don't have the freedom of speech of the people in the corporation have, but wants to treat them like people when there's taxes to be paid.

Ben, those corporations didn't pay any taxes one or more years because they didn't owe any, based on their US profits (or lack of profits) and the hoops they jumped through (like investments in equipment or training) in order to not pay the onerous US rates. However, their owners and employees paid a bunch.

"Off the top of my head I believe
If I have a $100 dollars and I lose a dime is equivalent to having $1 billion dollars and losing $100 million. Is losing a dime out of $100 dollars really significant?" -Ben

"Off with his head!" - the Queen of Hearts

Now I see why Ben has such strange ideas about money... he has no number sense whatsoever.

[Douglas Keachie]

" by the owners who paid taxes on dividends or sale of shares."

There are no sales taxes on the "sale of shares." If there were, the Federal deficit could be paid off in less than 20 years, at a tax rate of 25 cents per $100 sold. The rich protecting the rich, once again.

[Douglas Keachie]

Ben was trolling you, Greg, he said "If." You fell for it.

[Douglas Keachie]

Comment appear to post and then disappear, as shall I after this one.

[Douglas Keachie]

Now these comments appear to be sticking. I initially praised the cartoon. Then I noted that the are no sales taxes on the "or by the owners who paid taxes on dividends or sale of shares." And that the Federal deficit would be paid off in 20 years with a stock sales tax rate of $ .25 per $100. Let's see if this one sticks

[George Rebane]

Administrivia - Just posted the 11aug13 update to 'War on Terror in Perpetuum, Amen' that describes a new 'kill switch' for shutting off the recording capability of nearby smartphones that will soon be available to a government agency (like your local police).
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2013/08/war-on-terror-in-perpetuum-amen.html

[L]

Think it through, folks. 100% of the cost of everything we buy is labor. The air, water, C02, trees, iron ore, dirt, gold, everything material is free, gifts from God (or Nature for the Dawkins fans).

Man creates nothing ex nihilo, he only reorganizes what is available by applying his labor.

It follows that 100% of all taxes is on labor. That means you, me and the fellow behind the tree.

Corporate taxes simply mean that a portion of the labor is taxed twice.

Maybe peoples' tax rate should be based not on income but on their usefulness to our lives. That'll mean lawyers, celebrities, sports figures, bankers and other parasite class folks will be out of luck. L

[Todd Juvinall]

Sales tax is the best way to tax in my view. You buy something you pay the same rate. A poor guy who scrapes enough money up from the street to buy his hooch corner and the billionaire pay the same rate. Easy, no paperwork.

[George Rebane]

L 118pm - that corporations pay no taxes has been a perennial teaching point on RR. However, it is quite inaccessible to people of the Left. Thanks for the refresher and expansion on the role of labor.

[Ben Emery]

George and Greg,
So let me get this straight,

-Make so little a person doesn't qualify to pay income taxes = bad

-Make billions in profits while receiving millions and billions in subsides and government contracts and not paying income taxes = good

Yep, a bunch of fascist corporatists among the ranks at Rebane's Ruminations.

We don't need government because GE, Monsanto, Bank of America, Goldman Sachs, Lockheed Martin, Merck, Tyson Chicken, Walmart, Exxon Mobil, and United Health are so trustworthy and will do right by their consumers.

You guys live in fantasy land.

[fish]

And that the Federal deficit would be paid off in 20 years with a stock sales tax rate of $ .25 per $100. Let's see if this one sticks

Pay off the federal deficit? How bout all that debt?

[Bill Tozer]

1) If the progressives are so brain dead they cannot understand the difference between gross and net, well....well...that says it all. Cannot fight imaginary bogie men.

Say a real estate agent makes 10k on selling a home. They run ads in the paper, drive around countless hours and burning countless gallons of gas showing homes to potential buyers, pay for reams of copies of documents, license fees, fees to the broker, etc. So, they really make 7k instead of 10k. Tax them on 10k? Revenue is not profit. Gross (revenue) minus cost=profit(net). Profit minus taxes=net profit after taxes.

2) Progressives go nuts on the word taxes. Knee jerk reaction. They can't help it. Its always evil corporations are not paying ENOUGH taxes, not by a long shot. Coupled with those horrible people that own the big house on the hill. Guess they equate the word "taxes" with capitalistic pigs like Mr. Pelosi , Bono, and Ford Motor Co. To them the word taxes actually means some Mc Scrooge ain't paying enough, never about what themselves are paying in taxes. Never. Life will never make libs happy until they make the filthy rich poor (except the filthy rich progressives). Their unquenchable desire and thirst.

3) Progressives do not understand risk. Perhaps they cannot wrap their deformed heads around the concept. One of life's great mysteries.

Take the libs forcing evil banks to lower their lending standards. Usually started by some community organizer shake down artists. Prime loans are unfair!

What happens? Banks must make RISKIER loans in riskier places. Riskier because of 3 things. First, Residents of poor areas usually to not have plenty of prospects of obtaining stable long term employment and replacement employment opportunities are less likely in poorer communities. 2)Banks view poor areas like Detroit as a risk because the banks have no guarantee that the borrower's home will likely to retain it's value (loan amount) through the life of the loan. Third, banks take on the risk of borrowing money from depositors and investors on the short term and lending that money over 30 years on the long term. Their risk is when rates fluctuate, they might have lent money to home buyers at 4% over 30 years and might have to pay back short term (3-5 years) money at 6%. Notice the word "might". It is also called risk. Risk of losing money, which means no profits, which means no taxes for the libs to get their nasty little grubby hands on.

To add insult to stupidity, progressives claim that banks don't lend to poorer communities because of racism. LOL! Its about risk, not race. Its about the odds of losing money and not repaying borrowed money to depositors and recouping lent out money. We ain't talking about working for the Red Cross here. Racism? As that distinguished Senator Robert Byrd from West Virginia said some are white (n words). Ain't racism, but try to convince the control freaks who live in constant envy of other peoples' money that.

Here is my fantasy. Someday in a perfect world the progressives will take the cotton out of their ears and put it in their mouths. Oh, those darn Republicans.

[George Rebane]

re BenE's 153pm - readers will note that the unapologetically innumerate Mr Emery is practicing that great progressive debating tactic again - having a conversation with himself.

[Todd Juvinall]

How true George, the man is truly a mental case.

[Jesus Betterman]

A flat sales tax on everything would include stocks, right? This machine thinks I'm Betterman still, don't argue with a machine.

[Gregory]

"So let me get this straight"

Sorry, Ben, you didn't get it straight. S'OK, it wasn't expected from you.

[L]

Keachie, Koyote, Betterman, you're all 'effing idiots. When an investor cashes out, he pays a tax if he's won and not if he's lost. It's called a Capital Gains Tax and has nothing whatever to do with a "sales tax." My God, what did you do when attending class? L

[Michael Anderson]

Let's bump up those capital gains taxes a bit, shall we? Are the efforts of the capital class any more solemn than the efforts of the labor class? Does their silver spoon somehow justify a lower tax rate?

Just askin'.

I do appreciate Todd's call for more taxes being laid upon consumption and less on labor. Taxes, fees, tariffs, and duties are all disincentives to certain behaviors. Taxing income produced by labor is completely stupid because it creates a disincentive to work. Income tax rates need to be as low as possible.

On the flip side, as Todd rightly suggests, taxes on consumption actually meet the needs of the user, based upon actual use. I would go so far as to suggest that an additional gas tax for basic auto insurance be added to the pump price so that we could all be free of the usurious uninsured driver amendments.

Simple fixes for complex times. In a political system that was created when steam engines were all the rage, this should be easy money.

But as Ben E. continues to hammer home, the political system we live under is a toxic mushroom and it is just a matter of time before it kills the host. Then we can move on to something better.

Lookin' forward to it, I am.

[Gregory]

"If I have a $100 dollars and I lose a dime is equivalent to having $1 billion dollars and losing $100 million. Is losing a dime out of $100 dollars really significant?"

Repeated just so we don't forget Ben's math moment. Perhaps Keach can commiserate.

[Gregory]

"I would go so far as to suggest that an additional gas tax for basic auto insurance be added to the pump price so that we could all be free of the usurious uninsured driver amendments."

From socialized medical insurance to socialized car insurance. Figures.

[Bill Tozer]

Where my Obamaphone? Oprah Win-free once passed out cars to poor women on her show. Saw the tape of it. Actually, GM donated the cars but she got the credit. A dream come true!! Unfortunately, most of the recipients of the heavenly gift could not afford the cost to register the cars. A thousand plus dollars is a lot of money for us poor folks who drive old beaters. Plus sales tax. Anyways, the letters started coming into the show asking for more mula from the new car owners. Plus there is that little overlooked cost of auto insurance. Its too expensive. And making sure no one messes with the new cars and steals them is like being a security guard. Plus the welfare department wants to know the value of the car. Its not fair!!
There oughta be a law. Maybe some kind of government subsidy for us po folk. New shiny cars is a basic human right cause it falls under the pursuit of happiness clause. Just like a former mayor of Nevada City told the Union..."that health care is a pursuit of happiness", thus a right.

A man of the cloth once told me something I will never forget and have pondered many many times. He said "the most materialistic people he has ever counseled are those who are the poorest." I am beginning to see his point. Where my Obamaphone?

[Joe Koyote]

Keachie, Koyote, Betterman, you're all 'effing idiots. When an investor cashes out, he pays a tax if he's won and not if he's lost. It's called a Capital Gains Tax and has nothing whatever to do with a "sales tax." My God, what did you do when attending class? L

Gee.. I got hammered and I didn't even comment on this thread. Who is the idiot here? It might be better if people stuck to the topics at hand rather than make random personal attacks, it makes them look foolish. I often find that people criticize another's choice of words and attack their person for being a dirty evil lib but seldom address the points that are made. Is this because they really don't have anything of substance to contribute to the conversation and are so uncomfortable with differing opinions that all they can do is lash out? People usually resort to personal attacks when they have no logical or reasonable response or are to uninformed to understand the concepts.

[Bill]

Mr. KKB. We have simply learned to take a page out of the lib's playwork. Its truly fun and so much less frustrating. Being besieged by scandals? Not problem. Just blame them vulgar neo-cons for the lame economic progress.

[Joe Koyote]

Bill, you are right.. it is more fun to sling mud, vent, and blame the other folks than it is to try and figure out what is really happening. In reality, no one who posts here is persuading anyone about anything. We all are just venting our frustrations at the state of affairs and lashing out at those who think differently. It is a lot like the audience for a lounge act hypnotist, they don't know why they are clucking like a chicken, just that they are clucking like a chicken. The world is currently being subjected to the most sophisticated persuasion (ie brainwashing) techniques ever conceived and, for the most part, don't even know it. Cluck, cluck.

[fish]

The world is currently being subjected to the most sophisticated persuasion (ie brainwashing) techniques ever conceived and, for the most part, don't even know it. Cluck, cluck.

"Vote for me and I'll give you stuff", "The NSA isn't listening in to your phone calls or reading your e-mails", "This is the most transparent administration in history"

Yeah.....sophisticated.

[George Rebane]

Apropos to the above comments, I call your attention to the 12aug13 update to 'War on Terror ...'.
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2013/08/war-on-terror-in-perpetuum-amen.html

[Gregory]

"Who is the idiot here?"

The folks who think people who sell stocks for a profit don't pay taxes, and that people who sell stock for a loss should also pay a tax.

Maybe we should charge a sales tax on houses, too, whether there's equity held by the 'owner' or not. What do you think, kids?** What would that do to the housing market? What would that do to the availability of mortgages for folks who would be planning on actually living in the house but might have to move with a job or changing family needs? Would that be significantly different than what it would do to securities and commodities markets?

** Obviously a rhetorical question, but my answer would be no.

[L]

Joe Koyote = Jesus Betterman = Doug Keachie. The (banned) idiot. Clear enough? L

[L]

Michael, you and Todd are basically correct that we should be taxing consumption instead of income. But keep in mind my fundamental point above, all taxes are on labor, without exception. Capital gains taxes are lower than income taxes because of the "risk factor" which Dr. Rebane has explained, more than adequately, in many posts. If you risk, and lose, the government is not going to compensate for your bad guess; if you win, it will take less than it will take from your guaranteed salary... sounds fairly "fair" to me.

Fundamentally, all taxes task the usefully employed to support the useless insofar as the Feds have moved themselves beyond the required activities as enumerated in the US Constitution. 90% of what the Fed govt does is not enumerated in the Constitution, per the 10th amendment, it is reserved to the states.

That's the world I'd choose to live in; AZ is not CA, and the difference shows. That's why I now live in Tucson instead of Topanga. L

[Bill Tozer]

Mr. Koyote is not banned. Maybe Mr Keachie was put on a time out, but that was then, this is now. Heck, look at my posts and I have not been banned. But, then again, Dr. Rebane cannot contact me directly since I moved and changed my e-mail address. I was intending to contact Dr. Rebane and inform him of the new e-mail in case he wants to admonish me privately. Something like missing you, wish you weren't here. Its on my list of things to do, NOT!

Dr. Rebane is truly long suffering with all of us. But, every man has his limits and I am been sensing the good doc's patience has been wearing thin lately. He needs a smoke and a pancake. Explaining over and over and over again that the hole does not equal the sum of the parts can drain a man of his energies. The whole equals the sum of the parts, not the hole (which could make even a freight train take a dirt road).

Everyone is welcomed here, even me. Just play by the rules. Show some respect, even to the libholes, and all is well. We have a big tent, and holes are welcome here to serve as a living example of broken thinkers.

Now, I have to go read some update on the war on terror before I serve my time back in the penalty box communicating with holes.

[George Rebane]

BillT 1258pm - Mr Tozer, your 'pen' is a joy to behold. May your wit and wisdom continue to grace these pages.

[Joe Koyote]

Joe Koyote = Jesus Betterman = Doug Keachie. The (banned) idiot. Clear enough? L -- you have no idea what you are talking about if you are implying that those posters are one and the same. They are not.

[Bill Tozer]

Which reminds me....anybody know when they are going to do a remake of SYBIL?

[Joe Koyote]

How about "the Monster that Devoured Cleveland." Remember that one?

[Douglas Keachie]

Curiously enough, the Obama motorcade ran out of gas, because of an un=repaired gas gauge. Capital gains taxes are ONLY paid if a profit is made. So your logic is, that if you've made a profit, only then do you pay taxes. If that is the case, then nobody should ever pay taxes, as when we cash out, we have nothing left but moldy molecules, that need to be incinerated or buried. If I recall correctly, dividends from stocks are considered taxable income, and so obviously, it is possible to pay taxes at more than one point in the life cycle of owning, buying, and selling stocks. How many tims in the ownership of a vehicle do you pay "taxes?" Fees, taxes, same dip, different days. "L" fails.

[Douglas Keachie]

""If I have a $100 dollars and I lose a dime is equivalent to having $1 billion dollars and losing $100 million. Is losing a dime out of $100 dollars really significant?""

IF I have a $100 dollars AND I lose a dime IS equivalent to having $1 billion dollars and losing $100 million. Is losing a dime out of $100 dollars really significant?

It's an IF, THEN , ELSE statement, Greg. We all know that this is a false statement. 100 million is 10% of 1 billion, and a dime is .1% of $100. You may be good at math, Greg, but you are only fair at logic. Trolled again, you are.

[Douglas Keachie]

Anytime you take on a new employer, you take one hell'ova risk that he/she will turn out to be a "hole." Having money to spare, indicates that society has already helped lift you to a point of greater security than the average kid just graduated from high school looking for his first job. Risk is relative to amassed capital. The more you own, the less risk to your personal well-being. This obvious point is lost on "I did it all myself" conservatives. "It's good to be the king." ~Mel Brooks~

[fish]

Anytime you take on a new employer, you take one hell'ova risk that he/she will turn out to be a "hole." Having money to spare, indicates that society has already helped lift you to a point of greater security than the average kid just graduated from high school looking for his first job. Risk is relative to amassed capital. The more you own, the less risk to your personal well-being. This obvious point is lost on "I did it all myself" conservatives. "It's good to be the king." ~Mel Brooks~

My suggestion to you is that you loosen the cinch at the bottom of the hefty bag before you really start to lose brain cells. I mean really....it's difficult to cram that much FAIL into just four...wait five sentences....somehow you manage though!

[George Rebane]

DouglasK 847am - Please stay out of any profession that requires the implementation of (your) logic in any finished product that is consumed by the innocent. And Mr fish's 934am says it even better.

[Ben Emery]

Doug, 13 August 2013 at 08:47 AM
My comment was at like 2am at the end of a long day in the sun and a couple of beers. I thought about the calculations for about 10 seconds. Didn't seem quite right but the math wasn't the point now was it.

Those who nit pick on stuff like that have no position to stand on so they go after the little insignificant stuff to change the topic.

These billionaires could drop $100 million into an election and think twice about the money because they have hundreds of millions if not billions more left in their wallets. Then we throw in corporate coffers laundering money through US Chamber of Commerce to influence elections. If we took just a fraction of one percent of their profits our entire election season could be bought ten fold in every election. At some point and we are approaching fast there will be a point when big money has such a huge stranglehold over the parties that control our government straight up corporate representative could become legal.

Corporatism and Fascism doesn't happen over night it takes time and crisis. We crossed that bridge after the violent acts on 9/11/01.

[George Rebane]

BenE 954am - I was waiting for your 'never mind the math, it's the thought that counts'. Unfortunately your thought only counts when you're distributing your own money. You and yours don't get to tell others what sums in their wallets are significant to them or not - at least not yet, even though that's what the country's social justice promoters (aka Marxists) are pushing for.

[Ben Emery]

George,
You are a fascist/ corporatist through and through. I never had any doubt of your true objectives of RR. Through my participation along with others pressing you on the issues on RR we have shown any others who read this tripe you put out as constructive commentary as nothing more than authoritarian bigoted racist bull shit with the title of PHD attached to it. I've said many times before but will say it one last time. What you have proven is being well educated in a specific field doesn't make you immune to being ignorant on many many other issues.

[Bill Tozer]

Thought a dime was much less than one tenth of a hundred clams. There is a decimal point problem, but never mind those little details until the rubber meets the road. My Momma always said the "road to hell is paved with good intentions." Just as long as it appeals to your emotions and makes you feel good about sticking it to Da Man, then that is all that really matters. Besides, I dislike (extremely dislike this morning) those spell check police. Like who really cares if I can't speel or make a typo? Just as long as the decimal points are accurate on my on-line paystubs. That makes me feel emotionally good. Makes me feel better when they error on the side of caution.

[fish]

Through my participation along with others pressing you on the issues on RR we have shown any others who read this tripe you put out as constructive commentary as nothing more than authoritarian bigoted racist bull shit with the title of PHD attached to it.

Run Ben Run........back to the rabbit warren!

[George Rebane]

BenE 1014am - I notice that your current comments on this and nearby RR posts are beginning to show little white flecks of foam around the edges. I am surprised that you continue to expose yourself to "this tripe". (And my PhD is "attached" by the likes of you, not me.) However, if you are looking for a more suitable blog on which to register your views, there's one I can suggest that does a good job reporting book fairs, wine tastings, and the openings of local pizza parlors. Given your opinions of me and my commentaries, I keep wondering what value you find here, why do you bother to comment on such an insignificant venue that spews such outrageously wrong, rejected, and out of the mainstream offerings?

[Ben Emery]

George, 13 August 2013 at 10:41 AM

Why? I had a person I respect say to me they thought you were moderate and they thought you were fair on the issues. I looked up your blog and started commenting. At the beginning I tried to find common ground to only find insults from yourself and your minions. That person along with many others have thanked me for exposing your true positions on the issues. I am glad you and Paul have a good relationship because it shows me in person you must be a better person than the opinions you express on RR. I think that of all the regular right wingers here and I wish everyone here well in the futures because we are going to need to come together if we are going to get through the shit storm on the horizon brought to us by gigantic transnational corporations and their forced policies onto our nations.

[l]

Mr. KKB, you need reminding that the investor who is taking a risk is using money that has already been subjected to income tax. If the investment goes bust, he has in effect spent it on nothing. If the investment is successful, the govt taxes it a lower rate than the first bite to encourage him to continue to invest reather than devote those bucks to consumption. I had no idea you didn't understand that. L

[L]

Actually, Ben, the best-known examples of 20thC fascism did happen almost overnight in Italy, Germany and Portugal. Spain needed a civil war to get it extablished, but it also lasted a lot longer there. It is happening in the US more like in Germany.

Note that in the above examples govt fascism was the cause of corporatism, not the other way around. LL

[Gregory]

"Those who nit pick on stuff like that have no position to stand on so they go after the little insignificant stuff to change the topic."

Ben, sorry, but ten seconds is enough time for any numerate adult to figure out a dime is to $100 as 1 is to 1000, and that the ratio of a million to 100k is 10:1. What's delicious about it is that it is so garishly idiotic to all.

No, George isn't fascist nor is he guilty of all the other thoughtcrimes you accuse him of, but from your far left vantage point I'm sure it's hard to tell the difference.

[Bill Tozer]

Oh Dr. Rebane, my brother Ben is just not having a peace, love, and rock and roll kind of day, and neither am I. We all have our moments. I know I got my brother's dander up with my comment on another thread about not shitting on his Grandpappy's grave. How could he not play mother hen after that? Too bad his righteous indignation was taken out on you, not me. Think the shrinks call that "transference of anger". We are all works in progress.

With those niceties said, lets get down to business. The topic at hand is "those damn Republicans". Brother Ben just see things differently than yours truly, although I saw them the way he sees them now when I was 17-20 years old. Maybe it is cause I skipped kindergarten back in the day, lol.

Brother Ben classic comment from 08:47 addressed to Mr. Keachie says the great divide in a nutshell: "If we took just a fraction of one percent of their profits our entire election season...."

Now, who is "we" taking (TAKING) just a fraction of the 1%ers profits. If only we could take. That is the cog in the gears. Who is we? Who is taking and who is giving with the proverbial gun to one's head.

Its that "we" that gets my dander up. Brothers like Peaceful Ben see things as "they, we," i.e., the whole enchilada instead of putting a face on it. I used to see things in that light. Even the Treyvon Martin cause was a bigger issue of "they" and "we" while those hard nosed Republicans where looking at the facts of the case, not hearsay. Libs saw it as a big racial issue, not whether or not a shooting was justified or a crime had been committed.

Republicans looked at it as a nuts and bolts legal issue in the here and now, while others looked at it as the legacy of Jim Crow laws and eons of slavery instead of Treyvon Martin himself or Mr. Zimmerman. Long winded example.

I say put a face on it, like we do with Bill Gates or Warren Buffett or A-Rod. Not "they".

Once down South I noticed a white co-worker using the N word referring to blacks in general but he was going hunting with his black friend the following day. I asked him about that. He said "the Yankees love the race, but hate the man. Down here, we hate the race but love the man." Even Martin Luther King said he never seen such hatred until he went up North to Chicago and Northeastern Cities. Never.

This story is my view of the great divide. If given only two choices and no other options, would you be a Yankee or a Southern boy? Who you love the man and disparage his race or would you go goggle-eyed over the race and disparage the man?

I can't change the world and it is a waste of time bemoaning the ills of societies. Sure, its fun, but leaves me empty at the end of the day. My transformation has been to focus less on what's wrong with the world and more on my neighbors, co-workers, and people I interact with. Put a face on it.

Instead of we taking, how about we telling "yes, you can do it! Don't matter that the deck is stacked against you. You can do it." Instead of this "all yous need US to take from the 1%ers"....What about the old hand up, not a handout? The old safety net, not an hammock. The old lets look under the hood and together will figure out what is wrong. It may not be the whole car, just an engine part.

I am beginning to think that the progressives are the true racists here. They hint that another man can not make it without "we taking ", thus implying the man is inferior because of his race or background. Such nonsense. The old individual's rights versus this warped group think that dismisses the individual and dismisses success stories of those that beat the odds as "anecdotal".

[Gregory]

" Didn't seem quite right but the math wasn't the point now was it."

You were using the Bad Math to justify confiscatory taxes, weren't you? Ben, most of your attempts at enlightening the heathens here have been lists of assertions nearly as ludicrous as your misstatement of 4th grade arithmetic.

[ouglas Keachie]

Only a fish would carry a garbage bag upside down.

[fish]

Spam filter ate my reply ouglas....no matter it was as pointless as your garbage bag comment.

Bill, well done! That was Fred Reed like in its magnificence!

And on that note:

Respecting All Cultures
ByAllowing Them to Remain Separate

August 12, 2013

Note: WHile I try to read all email and answer what I can, and find almost all of it interesting and thoughtful, I get swamped. Nobody likes being ignored, and I don't like doing it, but sometimes it isn't avoidable. Apologies.

Americans have prided themselves on America´s being a melting for so long that few notice that it isn´t. Cultures that could melt did, and those that couldn´t haven´t.

We tend to regard categories such as African-American, European-American, and Mexican-American as political, when in fact they designate unassimilated and perhaps unassimilable cultural entities. The differences are stark. The United States indeed is multicultural.

Go to a purely European-American community in, say, Idaho or Iowa. You will find clearly defined attitudes toward obedience to the law, the raising of children, toward schooling and acceptable behavior in school, toward democracy, self-reliance, constitutionality, civility, toward law and its enforcement. These qualities are not associated by accident. They closely resemble those found in Denmark and Finland. This is hardly surprising, since European-Americans came from Europe.

Now go to a purely African-American cultural enclave—say, Detroit. Here you will find very different attitudes toward study, behavior in schools, law enforcement, and reliance on governmental charity. Again unsurprisingly, society in Detroit resembles more closely that of Nigeria than of Holland since its people came from Africa and have had no contact with Europe or its values.

Now go to a Latino-American enclave, maybe El Paso, or Berwyn in Chicago. While Latino-American culture has much more in common with European-American than does African-American culture, because of heavy European influence during colonial times, attitudes toward schooling, government, marriage, and so on are distinctly not European-American.

Now, it is natural for cultures to be proud of their achievements and fond of their customs. As a European-American, I note that we have a continuous history from Agamemnon through Pericles, Archimedes, Xenophon through the magnificent achievements of Rome in government, architecture, and law--Ulpian, Papinian—through the Renaissance and its intellectual and artistic preeminence, through the invention of mathematics, chemistry, physics, electronics and so on. I grant that I am prejudiced—one always is regarding one´s own cultural home—but I think ours is a pretty fair record.

The successes of my people have sprung from studiousness, a talent for organization, obedience to law, and a certain adventurousness, both economic and otherwise. (“Hell, let´s drop out of Harvard and start Microsoft.”)

These qualities I think are the core of European-American identity, but they are not remotely unique to it. The Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, and Jews for example share these values, with which account for their obvious successes. This underlying similarity of the deeper values explains why there is comparatively little friction among these groups.

Now, while I feel proud, justly so I believe, of the nature and accomplishments of my own people, I do not believe I have a right to instruct other cultures as to how they should live and behave—provided that their manner of living and behaving does not affect me. If a Mexican-American community chooses to play loud ranchera late at night, and put chili in milkshakes, I have neither the right nor a desire to complain. Different cultures have differing tolerances for noise and eat different things. So what? It is their business.

Similarly, I do not believe that I have a right to tell African-Americans how to live—provided that their culture does not affect me. Being a European-American, my suspicion is that people in Detroit would prosper by studying more and shooting each other less, but this is a cultural prejudice on my part. They can do as seems best to them. Nor do I pretend to impose my European-American notions of proper schooling on Detroit. The African-American community can teach its children anything it wants, or nothing at all. I don´t care. It isn´t my business—provided that it doesn´t affect me.

I don´t say this from hard-heartedness. If the schools of Detroit said, “Fred, we got these lousy, worn-out stupid textbooks and not enough of them. We need books with bigger words and smaller pictures. Can you help us?” I would respond, “Sure, which books you want? They will be on a truck by noon tomorrow. No charge.”

But multiculturalism is, or should be, a street of two directions. If I don´t want to impose my values on other cultures, neither do I want them to impose their values on me and mine. And that is exactly what the federal government is trying to do. It istrying to destroy my culture by melding it with others. This Is not multiculturalism.

For example, I believe in the correct use of language. My culture after all produced Milton, Shakespeare, Dodgson, Galsworthy, and Tolkien. But when African-Americans are put into a European-American school, they do not learn English, but rather impose Ebonics, and every third word is “Fuck.” This latter is said to be acceptable because it is part of their culture, as it certainly is. It is not part of mine.

As a European-American, I believe in advanced courses and strict grading. African-Americans do not, and so standards have to be lowered for my children. As a European-American, I believe that boys should wear their pants somewhat higher than the level of their ankles, and that any student who curses of pushes a teacher should be permanently expelled. African-Americans do not share my European-American views.

How other cultures view these matters is not my concern. Provided that they do it in their own schools.

Having said these things, I will of course be said to be a white supremacist and a racist and all the other markers of very dim minds. Hardly. For one thing, culture is not synonymous with race. I am perfectly content to have people of other cultures and races in the schools of my children, provided that they accept my European-American core values. For another, I am not aware that Koreans, Japanese, Chinese, and Vietnamese, whom I very much admire, are white, though perhaps with global warming a hotter sun has bleached them. I know many Mexicans who share the core values of European-American culture, and do not regard myself as supreme over them.

Further, like almost all who are called white supremacists, I am in fact a cultural left-aloneist. I do not want supremacy over any group, as that would mean having them in custody, a responsibility of which I weary.

At the end of the day, I have to wonder what purpose is served by forcing cultures to mix. Nobody seems to want it. In Washington, DC, a city I know well, neither cultures nor races mix. When blacks move into a neighborhood, whites move out, and when whites move into DC, threatening to become a voting majority, blacks become unhappy. When whites leave the city, they go to white enclaves, notably Arlington, Fairfax, and Bethesda. Blacks go to Prince George´s County, mostly black.

Why not let them? Why not let people live with whom they choose, as they choose, and raise their children as they choose?

Nah.

[George Rebane]

fish 127pm - Thank you for that 'comment' by Fred Reed. It again summarizes exactly my position on cultures and multi-culturalism as witnessed on these pages. Fred Reed's website, where this originated, is
http://www.fredoneverything.net/Multi.shtml

BTW, the spam filter is empty, so I have no idea where your referenced comment went. Will publish when/if I find it.

[fish]

Will publish when/if I find it.

No need. It was truly as pointless as ouglas comment earlier.

[Paul Emery]

RE Ben 11:04 AM

Yeah Ben I've pretty well given up on this forum as a vehicle for enlightening conversations. I realize that the version of free enterprise and markets and freedom preached by this choir is based on Social Darwinism as the only viable process possible. When extended to health care it reveals a level of cruelty and indifference to basic human needs. It also reveals to me that eugenics is the inevitable conclusion to create efficient cost effective health care under free market visions. When extended to Foreign Policy it insures that American Imperialism will continue with obvious ramifications for the future. The indifference to the health and welfare of the earth is disturbing beyond comment. My flirtations with discussing these ideas is fun but I see no point in pretending this is a serious dialogue of contrasting ideas. Basically it all comes down to Party politics as the only option, which I am no longer interested in talking about seriously.

[Todd Juvinall]

Sorry to see you go PaulE. You always provide a good chuckle here in our serious discussions of things important. You go over to the DailyKos and talk about MJ. Adios.

[Paul Emery]

No problem Todd. I'm going to still be around for laughs. I just can't take seriously any conversation that takes the Republicrats seriously as representatives of our future. It's way too late for that.

[fish]

I still marvel at the cognitive dissonance of a man who rails at the government (a position I endorse) yet embraces the concept of "free" state provided healthcare (a position I find unworkable).

[Todd Juvinall]

PaulE you are just too funny.

[Bill Tozer]

A tribute to my brothers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYFJmm0aK-8

[Paul Emery]

Fish

I rail at abusive and unnecessary government that gives subsidies to the wealthy and sends the poor to emergency rooms for their routine health care. We are the only country in the civilized world that does not have some form of national health care. We also spend the most on Military.

[Gregory]

"Yeah Ben I've pretty well given up on this forum as a vehicle for enlightening conversations."

If by that you mean you don't think you'll be converting anyone, it's about time.

"I realize that the version of free enterprise and markets and freedom preached by this choir is based on Social Darwinism as the only viable process possible."

Paul, it isn't "social Darwinism" to believe one who lived a responsible life, getting an education, taking responsible jobs, spending within their means, owes their less responsible neighbors a large enough slice of their pie to get the same health care delivered in the same way. Not by waiting in the clinic, making an appointment and having what looks like insurance but is, in reality, prepaid health care paid for by the confiscation of the wealth of others.

"When extended to health care it reveals a level of cruelty and indifference to basic human needs."

Not at all; right now, if you are a woman about to give birth, you can get taken to any ER and you, and your baby, will get the benefit of 21st century medical science.

"It also reveals to me that eugenics is the inevitable conclusion to create efficient cost effective health care under free market visions."

Bizarre. It wasn't that way when health care really was based on a free market and charity, before we started down the Great Society path. Why would it be different now?

"When extended to Foreign Policy it insures that American Imperialism will continue with obvious ramifications for the future."

Paul, you just have to believe. Really. With Obama as our chief executive the world will love us, give it time.

"The indifference to the health and welfare of the earth is disturbing beyond comment."

I can't think of any indifference to the health and welfare of the Earth ever being an issue here. If it's catastrophic anthropogenic global warming you are obliquely referencing, it's becoming quite clear we're facing cooling, not warming. The sun's magnetic field is weakening to the point there may not even *be* sunspots in the next cycle, and we're facing decades of cooling, not warming.

There is also record antarctic ice for the SH winter, and a record cold summer in the arctic. We live in interesting times.

"My flirtations with discussing these ideas is fun but I see no point in pretending this is a serious dialogue of contrasting ideas."

What you call "flirtations" I'd call hit and runs that look more like sparring than discussions. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee. Set traps, play gotcha.

"Basically it all comes down to Party politics as the only option, which I am no longer interested in talking about seriously."

Good. Come on back and discuss things straight up when you're ready.

[fish]

Fish

I rail at abusive and unnecessary government that gives subsidies to the wealthy and sends the poor to emergency rooms for their routine health care. We are the only country in the civilized world that does not have some form of national health care. We also spend the most on Military.

I rail at abusive and unnecessary government that gives subsidies to the wealthy...

Agree completely.

....and sends the poor to emergency rooms for their routine health care.

Funny. Growing up we certainly weren't wealthy...not by a long shot but my parents paid for our routine medical care.

We are the only country in the civilized world that does not have some form of national health care.

We have medicare (going broke).....we have medicare (flirting with going broke)....we have SCHIP. Wow it appears as though we have some forms of national health care.

We also spend the most on Military.

We do and I think we could spend much less.

So in essence you loath "abusive and unnecessary government" when it doesn't do exactly what Paul Emery wants it to do.

Is that it?

[fish]

.....we have medicare (flirting with going broke)

medicaid!

[Paul Emery]

Gregory

Hit and run tactics are claiming that there's a price to pay for Teachers Union members refusing to donate to political endeavors and making no attempt to verify your claim.

Fish you write :
"So in essence you loath "abusive and unnecessary government" when it doesn't do exactly what Paul Emery wants it to do."

So what. Don't we all make that distinction? There are those that applauded our unconstitutional war in Iraq for example as righteous foreign policy so to them it was not abusive.

We don't have national health care Fish but instead a mish mash of programs that are the most expensive in the world (18% of the GDP) and leave millions with no health care unless they declare bankruptcy and become destitute. The discussion we had about the boys with Cystic Fibrosis convinced me that there are those that would just as soon let those children die rather than pay taxes that would help provide them care. Also the discussion on whether parents should be required to have health insurance before having children was an eye opener about what free market health care is really all about. Eugenics is indeed a practical way of eliminating the sickly pre-borns and is the practical alternative to providing a lifetime of care at the taxpayers expense.

Also Fish when we were growing up family doctors could provide health care using their best judgement as to diagnosis but not so nowadays. Today they are general contractors who farm out the diagnosis to medical techno centers that they own for thousands of dollars worth of tests before they make a call. If they don't do that they are subject to lawsuits. In other words, the whole system works together to make health care unaffordable for families that don't have insurance. Just try and upset that system with the health care industry spending a Billion a year on lobbying.

[Gregory]

"Hit and run tactics are claiming that there's a price to pay for Teachers Union members refusing to donate to political endeavors and making no attempt to verify your claim."

Paul, you were off claiming I was making stuff up before I had a chance to reiterate what was in a link I'd already posted and you apparently didn't bother to grok. Detailed in a lawsuit, links posted, that is attempting to do in the courts what the unions spent millions to kill in a proposition. You got it balled up and continue that here with your imitation Keachie tactics. It's teachers who don't want Union membership, not Teachers Union members, that get the runaround. From a quarter to a half of dues go to political endeavors; if you refuse to join the union, you get hassled about your status every year, having to again opt out, and then get the runaround every year when the the amount of dues sans the political component is agreed upon.

The little windowdressing checkoff fund where a teacher in the union can designate a tiny fraction of their dues (what was it, $30?) to go to a union PAC or go to the union general fund, isn't the issue. It isn't a voluntary contribution to the PAC, it's money the union will be spending one way or another, and even if it goes into the general fund it's likely to be spent on politics the member might disagree with.

[Paul Emery]

Can you share that link again Gregory.

[Gregory]

Paul, I'm sure a bright fellow like you could find it if he tried. You could even google; the suit was filed in April.

[Bill Tozer]

Mr. Paul. You have mentioned more than once the story of your dear friend's children who without the government stepping in to foot the bill, the parents would not be able to afford the medical care and the boys would die.

The children HAVE received their medicine (in this case), DO receive it at this writing, and WILL continue to receive it whether Obamacare is repealed or not. Nothing said here will change that.

But, I see your point. We (I) have not praised this good news enough, or the right way or used the right words to convince you of anything other that we secretly or overtly really, really want the kids to DIE.

Remember that outspoken Congressman from Florida with that big poster with the word "DIE" written on it? He stood on the House Floor and proclaimed "This is the Republican plan... DIE." Yep, you are on to me. I really, really want the children to die a slow agonizing death. There, I said it. I want everybody to DIE. That is our plan. Darn, Mr. Paul, you pulled that gem right out of me and now the Emperor has no clothes.

Me thinks you are titling at windmills, Mr. Quixote. Actually, I prefer that death comes quickly to ANY family that is anguishing over watching a loved one slip away. It is so heart wrenching when the process continues for too long and the unspeakable pain the loves ones suffer through.

Well, can't convince you otherwise. Yep, our plan is for you to DIE. Busted again. Wonder what that Congressman is doing since he got voted out of office? I heard is is doing quite nicely in the private sector, making hand over fist emptying little old ladies coin purses. Our plan its for him to DIE also.

[fish]

So what. Don't we all make that distinction?

Gee Paul if that's your position you should ask for a pony too.

[Todd Juvinall]

People like PaulE show everyone eventually their disingenuous. America has Medicare for the old, Medicaid for the poor and the ER for everyone else. The lack of any sympathy for the slobs that pay for all that is where PaulE is exposed. No argument matters as long as America has not adopted HIS desire. Danish healthcare. PaulE, you are right, you don't debate or discuss, you are simply a drone from the left./

[Ben Emery]

Paul,
I think Todd called you, Frisch, Anderson, Tozer, and I slobs. We are working while Todd, Rebane, Steele, and Goodnight sit around sucking up those entitlement benefits they despise so much. I don't blame them they paid into them just like everybody else but do find it funny they think only they had to pay into the programs.

[Ben Emery]

All this health care back and forth has one major flaw. Nobody has mentioned the absolute abandonment of big business towards the American worker. The social compact was decent wages and benefits to receive all the privileges of a corporation in the biggest economy on the planet. Once "free trade" and "supply side" was forced upon us that compact or contract went out the window.

It is impossible to show causality to any one policy but can show correlation with the Reagan Revolution and the policies it brought. The counter to the progressive era started in the mid 70's but it wasn't until Reagan took office was it solidly implemented. Check out these graphs and observe when the skyrocketing of costs or debt began to happen. This isn't about Republican or Democrat it is about right vs left policies. We have a right center party in the Democrats and an extreme right party in the Republicans at the moment. It isn't about a single policy it is an overall ideology that has transformed our middle class powerhouse nation into the most unequal nations in the developed world.

Health Care Costs
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2010/12/u-s-health-care-costs-since-1980/

National Debt
http://futuretimeline.net/subject/images/us-debt-graph-2020.jpg

Unionized Workers
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/TUWbVZ16InI/AAAAAAAAO4I/VxVlHEMn4Iw/s1600/union.jpg

Corporate Profits and Worker Wages
http://www.businessinsider.com/corporate-profits-just-hit-an-all-time-high-wages-just-hit-an-all-time-low-2012-6

College Tution
http://inflationdata.com/inflation/images/charts/Education/Education_inflation_chart.htm

[fish]

So how are you going to undo all that Ben?

[Ben Emery]

Fish,
Unfortunately we have to make another major shift or reversal of the policies that created this mess. Major tax, trade, banking, and military reforms are a must but since we have two political parties owned by those who benefit immensely from our current corrupt system it isn't going to happen until the house of cards collapses.

The question becomes how prepared are we when the collapse happens?

[Keachie]

test

[Keachie]

Published your racist screed at Farstars, which shows up in NCVoices.us, for all the liberal world to see. Carry on...

[Gregory]

Ben, you putz, I don't receive any "entitlement benefits", nor do the ones that get them think only they paid into it, tho' I did suck up as much of the SS survivor's benefits as was possible, as did my kid, those ended for me 8 years ago. The older retirees like Rebane got much more from the program than they put into it, the Bens will put much more into it than they get back.

Wait, all of a sudden, SS doesn't seem all that bad...

[fish]

Unfortunately we have to make another major shift or reversal of the policies that created this mess. Major tax, trade, banking, and military reforms are a must but since we have two political parties owned by those who benefit immensely from our current corrupt system it isn't going to happen until the house of cards collapses.

The question becomes how prepared are we when the collapse happens?

Wow! I didn't think you would get the right answer! Well done sir!

[fish]

Published your racist screed at Farstars, which shows up in NCVoices.us, for all the liberal world to see. Carry on...

So who exactly did you "tell on" Peachie...this blog as a whole or was there a particular heretic that was singled out?

[fish]

Published your racist screed at Farstars, which shows up in NCVoices.us, for all the liberal world to see. Carry on...

Oh my Doug....what a catbox of confused progtard thought! Hold on a second....I'm a little dizzzy.....after visiting.....that! Whew....!

As long as you're tattling you really need to find a way to draw attention to the....ahem...racist screed if you want all the cool kids too see it!

[George Rebane]

Gregory 931am - good points. In my case, I'll let you know when I break even on my SS contributions. But the real calculation should be done with everyone's contributions invested at some realistic discount rate over the years, instead of under the confiscatory ponzi scheme that the feds run.