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20 August 2013

Comments

Bill Tozer

The organ transplant protocol is clearly defined. A panel decides who gets one and who doesn't. Knew a guy who was a former junkie. Never really held a job in his entire life. He has passed on. Lived in GV in Section 8 housing, drew disability (got Hep C from a blood transfusion after being stabbed back in the day) before Aids made them test the blood. Paid like 90 bucks a month rent forever, give or take. His wife was a professional student who kept getting school grants well into her mid 50's. Right before she was to graduate, she would change majors and start to money train over again. She also got paid by the state for in-home care of her own husband. Finally took in niece and got 600 more clams a month for "foster care".

I could not continue my friendship with him or his wife because it bothered me so much after he asked me if he could stash (hide) his new Harley at my place. Drove nice cars as well. He was ok, but his rants when welfare reform was happening about "THEY HAVE TO give you this and that. Both thought welfare reform would never never happen and it should be illegal. She took a grant writing class at American River College and taught all the welfare mothers over at the complex how to get more money forever and ever, amen.

So, my friend needed a kidney transplant. Trouble was the anesthesia needed would kill his bad heart. Oh, they kept him on the list until the day he died, but after his first review for a transplant, he confided in me that "they might as well have given him a bullet".

The point is the review panel looks at one's life in its entirety before the transplant and guesstimate what kind of life will the recipient of the transplant have after his/her operation. The waiting list is long. Are you a hard working stiff with a young family and will continue to be an asset to society after the transplant? Or, are you an aging doper who will continue in self destructive ways after the transplant?

Yes, its like playing God for the docs. But the list is long and the organs should go first to those who will continue to be productive members of society as they were before their need for a transplant.

Had a next door neighbor once that also needed a transplant. They told her to give up smoking. She refused and got hooked on pain meds. The meat wagon hauled her off one night as she overdosed on pain meds and I saw her earlier in the day still smoking.

I thought them libs have scolded us that Mexico has such great health care. Heck, thousands of Americans cross the border daily to get cheaper meds and make their SS checks stretch. So, somebody shits on our country by breaking our laws entering here and then screams bloody murder that they don't get what they want when they want.

Hey illegals of all races, creeds and national origins: Get the hell out of my country and come back legally like millions of immigrants have done before you. Like my grand pappy did and my mother's great grand pappy did. I don't care if you get all butt hurt. Mexico has fine health care per every lib who has posted here.

Paul Emery

George

Can you tell me what point you are trying to make in your 21aug13 update. It seems you are using an anecdote to make some kind of point, which according to earlier postings by you is a decidedly Liberal trait.

Joe Koyote

cluck, cluck, cluck -- conservatarians are good progressives are evil -- cluck cluck cluck -- the sky is falling and it's ll their fault.. cluck cluck cluck -- so what else is new?

George Rebane

PaulE 1108am - Actually I'm using three anecdotes to confirm the ongoing thesis on RR that our progressive(ly) promoted politically correct attitudes are both insane and societally dysfunctional.

JoeK 1109am - Yeah Joe, while I wouldn't use the word 'evil' to generally describe the promotion of progressive policies, unless, of course, their purveyor is doing it knowing that it will hurt the country. I have seen no evidence that you are evil. Nevertheless, for better or worse, the collectivist/conservetarian dialectic is an enduring theme, not only on these pages but all over America (and the world?).

We are both attempting to convince the yet-to-be-convinced that our respective nostrums are the most beneficial to humankind. And that becomes evermore important as the proportion of oblivians among us increases.
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/08/21/act-scores-fall-lowest-level-five-years

Walt

Great read Bill, and So true. Yes,, there is even a professional deadbeat or two
in my clan. I don't speak to them either.

There was a small discussion a while back on the IRS, and who gets non profit status.
Well.. "O"'s Brother happens to run the finances for the Muslim brohood. And low and behold,
that Lois Lerner signed the tax exempt papers for the "group".
No wonder "O" has sided with the enemy. You know,, back when he demanded Egypt give the Brohood
another chance?

How long will we allow these " high crimes and misdemeanors" to continue to be played upon this great nation?

Todd Juvinall

I think the driver is white in the murder for fun by the two black teens. My guess is the race hustlers will be making sure the system of oppression by the criminal justice system, contrived by the white power structure, will be "fair" to the killers. Also, my guess is these killers will be released by the age of 25.

Paul Emery

So George what is the difference in your use of antedotes to press an argument and my use of antedotes as living examples of health care problems.

George Rebane

PaulE 1213pm - I use anecdotes to illustrate a previously defined and expanded general principle or ideological tenet which fill these pages. To my knowledge, you have yet to share tenet #1 from your ideology and resort exclusively to what I have here cited as 'issues activism' (defined by a progressive academic in lamenting the intellectual wasteland of expressed progressivism) that rests on nothing but anecdotal illustrations void of principle.
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2012/03/-the-liberal-mind-yes-virginia-we-really-are-different.html
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2012/08/the-liberals-intellectually-baseless-ideology.html

Were it not so, we could be debating the relative merits of ideologies which underpin our assessments of public policies. Oh well.

George Rebane

ToddJ 1145am - It was reported (can't find it) that the driver was a mulatto, which by today's racial norms makes him a 'black', as per 'our first black president'. This is corroborated by the picture of the lad in the link I provided. But, agreeing with you, I don't think resolving this question is a hill worth dying on.

Paul Emery

George

What an arrogant and desperate response to my query. To clarify things before I respond in detail you believe that my view on health care problems are "void of principle" therefore any examples of human suffering that I use are not valid.

Paul Emery

George
rewritten for clarity:

To clarify things before I respond in detail I want you confirm that you believe my views on health care problems are "void of principle" therefore any examples of human suffering that I use are not valid.

George Rebane

PaulE 109pm - "arrogant", "desperate", wow! And here I thought that my response was clear, complete, and concise. Apparently you did not read the citations that expand my answer. Such different worlds.

But yes, until you FIRST supply the principle behind the illustrating anecdote, the anecdote is indeed void of principle, and will so languish until the supporting principle is revealed. Until then, you are doing nothing but emoting and inviting, nay, insisting that your listener share your emotional basis for the policy you are promoting.

Paul Emery

Here we go

My principal is that

I am my brothers keeper.

what more do you need and what is your contrast to that?

Paul Emery

Here is a useful definition of moral principles

They represents a set of values that orient and rule the conduct of a concrete society. The law establishes an obligation in the individual's conscience that belongs to the cultural field in which such values are accepted.

Joe Koyote

Hey Todd.. aren't you being a little too judgmental? Maybe the perps had a grandfather who was dragged out of their house and lynched for looking at a white woman.

George Rebane

PaulE 130pm - That little homily is hard to accept as an ideological principle, since demonstrably you are not your brother's keeper. One can identify billions of brothers that you do not in any sense 'keep'.

Your 151pm quote is extracted perhaps out of some unknown context. Laws don't establish any obligations that are in the moral conscience of an individual. Laws only establish behavioral mandates through force, which mandates are moot on morals. In short, moral values don't need to be enforced by the gun.

fish

They represents a set of values that orient and rule the conduct of a concrete society. The law establishes an obligation in the individual's conscience that belongs to the cultural field in which such values are accepted.

Is this your own or are you "copying someone else homework" again?

Paul Emery

Fish

It's from Websters Dictionary, printed version, where most definations are found.

George, this is a defination of moral principals that don't have anything to do with law.
My belief that we are our brothers keeper is a personal value that I try to extend to my actions in life. Do you have a problem with that?

George Rebane

PaulE 328pm - No problem at all with your attempts "to extend (such) actions in life." But a big problem with your trying to pass this off as an operational tenet of an ideology upon which formalized public policy is made (ie laws, regulations, codes, ...). And, of course, the cited definition has everything to do with "the law" since it uses it as part of the definition.

Todd Juvinall

Joe Koyote | 21 August 2013 at 02:37 PM

Not Judgmental Joejust realistic. You have a problem with that?

PaulE, I think the use of "brothers keepers" may have been from a religious sect? Aren't you mixing church and state? Please tell us how a person helping their brother gets translated by you into higher confiscations of my money by government to give to others not related to me? Also, if you are true to your arrogant musings here (that you are better than us because you say so through this phony emotional tripe) then how come you don't list your tax returns for all to see how much you gave in "charitable money"?

You libs make assumptions that are just bogus about the term "charity" or "brothers keepers". If you want to show us your compassionate giving to others, then list it here and shut us up and send us to our room. If not I will put you in the Joe Biden and Clinton underwear write-offs as a good example of a "compassionate" lib.

Paul Emery

George

You are so unpoetic. You know what I'm talking about. Of course "brothers keeper" is not a literal truth but more what I strive for in my life and what I feel is my obligation in living a rightous life.

Todd

You're an dork and don't have a clue what I'm talking about. All you want to do is argue.

George

I defer to Thomas Paine ( Agrarian Justice) thanks to Ben Emery, on the responsibilities of our culture to be their "brothers keeper".

"There are, in every country, some magnificent charities established by individuals. It is, however, but little that any individual can do, when the whole extent of the misery to be relieved is considered. He may satisfy his conscience, but not his heart. He may give all that he has, and that all will relieve but little. It is only by organizing civilization upon such principles as to act like a system of pulleys, that the whole weight of misery can be removed.

The plan here proposed will reach the whole. It will immediately relieve and take out of view three classes of wretchedness-the blind, the lame, and the aged poor; and it will furnish the rising generation with means to prevent their becoming poor; and it will do this without deranging or interfering with any national measures.

To show that this will be the case, it is sufficient to observe that the operation and effect of the plan will, in all cases, be the same as if every individual were voluntarily to make his will and dispose of his property in the manner here proposed.

But it is justice, and not charity, that is the principle of the plan. In all great cases it is necessary to have a principle more universally active than charity; and, with respect to justice, it ought not to be left to the choice of detached individuals whether they will do justice or not. Considering, then, the plan on the ground of justice, it ought to be the act of the whole growing spontaneously out of the principles of the revolution, and the reputation of it ought to be national and not individual."

Al

Thomas Paine was a useful plagiaristic Pommy and white.

To see my man crush Uncle George out-there currently advocating our Rights and our Republic's Contract go to:
http://www.nevadacountytv.org/pages/node/82
Thence enter - Breaking Bread - in the Search Bar.
You will see His contributions to the program "Breaking Bread" in Epsodes #1, 2 and 4. Tis awesome.
Cudos, too, to da blog gang (the infamous "four or five") for your reasoned efforts .

George Rebane

PaulE 455pm - Then I was right, your 'brother's keeper' copy was not an ideological tenet, even for you (so what was the righteous indignation of your 109pm about?). Which brings us back to square one - your emotional anecdotes are still void of any operating principle that supports critical thinking for making public policy. But then again, that limitation only applies to reasonable people.

Todd Juvinall

PaulE, au contraire, I know exactly what I am talking about. You inability to put yur money where your mouth is is evident in the "brothers keeprs" straw man you are trying to foist. But as usual, you never answer our questions. PaulE we have you down pat, you are a joke here man.

Al


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGMQU2ru9qo

Al


To see Uncle George out-there advocating our Rights and our Republic's Contract go to:
http://www.nevadacountytv.org/pages/node/82
Thence enter - Breaking Bread - in the Search Bar.
You will see His contributions to the program Breaking Bread in Epsodes #1, 2 and 4.
Cudos, too, to da blog gang (the infamous "four or five") for your reasoned efforts .

Paul Emery

George

Oh now it's "operating" principle. You're going sideways on me George. I was referring to moral principle which is the basis for any "operating " principle being enacted.I know this is getting a little squishy for you but it what happens when you state that only so called Conservatives have the ability to use anecdotes in discussions because the opposition lacks principles.

So for the purposes of continuing let me simplify this by quoting Thomas Paine, who you chose to ignore, who lays out the justification for action beyond charity in the case of lameness, blindness and wretched poverty situations that he described in my post of 4:33.

"It is, however, but little that any individual can do, when the whole extent of the misery to be relieved is considered. He may satisfy his conscience, but not his heart. He may give all that he has, and that all will relieve but little. It is only by organizing civilization upon such principles as to act like a system of pulleys, that the whole weight of misery can be removed.....
But it is justice, and not charity, that is the principle of the plan. In all great cases it is necessary to have a principle more universally active than charity; and, with respect to justice, it ought not to be left to the choice of detached individuals whether they will do justice or not........."

fish

It's from Websters Dictionary, printed version, where most definations (sic) are found.

Funny...I'm looking at Websters right now...morality play, moralize (an Emery specialty), moral philosophy.....morass.....no, that's not it.hmmm, nothing about "moral principles. Yo Paulie....I can put up with the lectures! But why tell lies?

George Rebane

PaulE 634pm - It has always been a principle upon which people can operate - viz make public policy. The "squishy" stuff progressives (of both parties) push leads to the kinds of policies we have now, no reasonable support in sight, only the demagoguery of anecdotes that work on uninformed emotions.

And I have no idea what your quotes of Paine are supposed to suggest. If you think it's his support for increased government involvement, you're quite mistaken. All he says is that working together is more effective than "detached individuals" working alone. But only to the progressive mind does collective action restrict itself to more government. The other ways are many, and I leave them for the reader to discover for himself.

Account Deleted

I have the same basic ethos as Paul. The problem becomes two-fold. First - Paul believes he has the right to use my money for his 'deeply held principles.' (God forbid he would use his) But I don't have the same right. Why? Possibly he feels more righteous or moral than me, I'll let him explain that. Numero two-oh - My definition of being 'my brothers keeper' is clearly different than his, but his trumps mine, because again, he is more righteous or moral or just superior in some way than I.
"lameness, blindness and wretched poverty" Paul might want to update his almanac since the time of Mr. T. Paine. We have a record number of folks on food stamps and they are certainly not, for an overwhelming majority, anything close to what Paine describes. There are folks suffering, Paul. They followed the left-wing, progressive dream and it ends up at the welfare office. I feel badly for them, but they, along with the ones that encouraged that life-style will not listen. "Don't go near the cliff" signs are ridiculed as worthless by the left. And the lemmings continue to fall to their deaths. And the ones posting the warnings are blamed for their demise. We are actually accused of 'attacking' them for trying to warn them. But they know better. That's what I hear them say as they stand in line demanding that I feed, clothe and house them with material goods that even I can't afford.

George Rebane

ToddJ - you were right, the third youth (driver) is reported to be white.

Paul Emery

George

They will have to indeed do that discovery themselves because this forum is no help. In my view this quote by Paine is enough to show he supports collective action to solve problems of lameness, blindness and extreme poverty and recognizes that charity alone cannot achieve that goal, something I believe about health care.

Fish Who cares but you. It's in my printed version under principles, it's a big book circa 1959.

Paul Emery

Scott

Should I have the right to withhold my tax contributions that go to unconstitutional unnecessary and in my view unmoral wars? Does a pacifist have the right to not pay taxes on military spending? Does a vegetarian have the right to not pay taxes that support meat production? I can go on and on.

Gregory

Paul, I think I see your cognitive intestinal blockage... when Paine was speaking of collective action, he wasn't promoting a strong central Federal government with god given dictatorial powers to coerce the collective action. That's what he was fighting against.

Account Deleted

Well Paul, you could go on and on, but social spending is way ahead of military spending and the money spent on social programs is demonstrably harmful to the general population. According to the left, poverty is increasing. Clearly, throwing money at poor folks ain't doing the job. Education funding is going up as student test scores go down. Also - I don't believe I have ever advocated for 'immoral wars'. You are making a straw man argument.
Why don't we try production of goods as a means of wealth increase and a free market where folks can decide where to spend their money? You will still have to support the military as it's a Constitutional requirement. Food stamps are not. You are quite free to work with others to 'collectively' feed the hungry. It's done all the time over at the food bank. The vast majority of Americans who are takers are not blind, crippled or unable to work, Paul. They just don't want to work. And it doesn't help matters that the govt interferes with companies that would like to hire. The govt is making it increasingly hard for small companies to hire and retain employees. Our GDP absent the govt portion is falling. We can not keep printing money and handing it out. We have to get to work.

fish

Who cares but you. It's in my printed version under principles, it's a big book circa 1959.

Oh I don't know....maybe those who you come here to debate against. I'll check the 1959 version....assuming I can find it....if it is as you say an apology will be issued.

George Rebane

PaulE 1019pm - You misread Paine. He was talking about the shortcomings of individual charity not collective charity, the modes of which have been extensively covered in this forum. Unfortunately progressives cannot avail themselves to such alternatives and are therefore blind to them.

With the daily unraveling of Obamacare, I presume that even you are beginning to have doubts about the future of America's healthcare under that disastrous legislation. I do know that you and Harry are really pining for 'single payer', but that is not the bamboozle now foisted on the nation.

Todd Juvinall

Scott makes a excellent set of points about the economy and how things are in reverse under all these liberal policies and laws. I received the latest Sierra College catalog of classes and just finished reading through it. It seems to me it is a prime example of the demise of our country.

Rather than teaching the skills needed to get a job and help pay our way as citizens, the catalog has quite a number of dancing classes, basket weaving and other artsy classes. There are many types of classes that are totally superfluous to getting the country back on track. I am sure the Russians and Chinese are guffawing at us as they read these catalogs and see where America's priorities are.

As they train and teach engineers and scientists, we are teaching our people to Salsa dance. This is all done with the hundreds of billions of our "education" dollars. My guess is there is no response from liberals who like to dance.

Paul Emery

George

You're wrong about Paine on this. If you read his essay you will find this methodology for payment to aid the unfortunates he described. Notice the use of the word SHALL:

"II. The law shall fix the manner in which the property of deceased persons shall be ascertained.

III. When the amount of the property of any deceased persons shall be ascertained, the principal heir to that property, or the eldest of the co-heirs, if of lawful age, or if under age, the person authorized by the ill of the deceased to represent him or them, shall give bond to the commissioners of the canton to pay the said tenth part thereof in four equal quarterly payments, within the space of one year or sooner, at the choice of the payers. One-half of the whole property shall remain as a security until the bond be paid off.

IV. The bond shall be registered in the office of the commissioners of the canton, and the original bonds shall be deposited in the national bank at Paris. The bank shall publish every quarter of a year the amount of the bonds in its possession, and also the bonds that shall have been paid off, or what parts thereof, since the last quarterly publication.

The national bank shall issue bank notes upon the security of the bonds in its possession. The notes so issued, shall be applied to pay the pensions of aged persons, and the compensations to persons arriving at twenty-one years of age. It is both reasonable and generous to suppose, that persons not under immediate necessity, will suspend their right of drawing on the fund, until it acquire, as it will do, a greater degree of ability. In this case, it is proposed, that an honorary register be kept, in each canton, of the names of the persons thus suspending that right, at least during the present war.

http://www.constitution.org/tp/agjustice.htm

Joe Koyote

Todd-- if you are talking about the same catalogue that I received in the mail, then you are NOT referring to the normal schedule of classes for students, that is on-line. The catalogue I think you are referring to is Sierra's version of adult education. Those classes are not part of the normal class offerings, and are mostly taught by non-regularly employed instructors, but by community members at large. The classes are usually on a fee basis that goes to the instructor not the school. They are considered "enrichment" classes and that is why the mostly art stuff.. as well as how to do business startups, how to put together a non-profit.. and so on. You are confusing two separate entities.

Todd Juvinall

I am not confusing anything since these are catalogs from our Sierra College. Who pays for the facilities? How about the instructors liabilities? These classes are under the auspices of the District. I once dated a instructor who fulled me in on these things. I know what I am talking about.

Joe Koyote

Are you referring to the catalogue called Kaleidoscope? Yes they are classes under the auspices of Sierra, but they are not considered part of the regular academic course offerings. The instructors propose these "for fee" classes and if accepted the school takes a cut of the fees. You could teach a class on building if you wanted.

Gregory

Paul 10:39

That proposal of Paine's was for France as something that fit their needs once their Revolution was over.

Joe Koyote

Todd: I received the latest Sierra College catalog of classes and just finished reading through it. It seems to me it is a prime example of the demise of our country.

Rather than teaching the skills needed to get a job and help pay our way as citizens, the catalog has quite a number of dancing classes, basket weaving and other artsy classes. There are many types of classes that are totally superfluous to getting the country back on track.

If you want to find academic classes go to the college website and click on "class schedule"

Walt

On the subject of the low life "thrill killers",
I have yet to read one peep anywhere of where these underage
thugs got their guns. They shot the man with a .22 pistol.(from what I can find) There are photos and videos of a long rifle. Again. How and where did they acquire them?
I guess only guns used in self defense and in a White man's hands
does the issue come up.

Paul Emery

Gregory

Thanks for actually reading the link, something few in this forum bother to do. Yes, it does refer to France as the current example however his view is that it should be applied to a all so called "civilized" nations. He does indeed refer to it as a right

"In advocating the case of the persons thus dispossessed, it is a right, and not a charity, that I am pleading for. "

Todd Juvinall

JoeK, it is all under the Sierra College District. Taxpayers paid for this.

Joe Koyote

Todd: Taxpayers aren't paying for this. The college makes money doing this. The same with the Ghidotti high school. These are non-transferable non-academic courses offered as "enrichment" courses. The artsy courses are largely, but not exclusively for retired people. There are many skill related course offerings in that catalogue as well, from software training to start your own business classes. The point you were trying to make was "Rather than teaching the skills needed to get a job and help pay our way as citizens, the catalog has quite a number of dancing classes, basket weaving and other artsy classes. There are many types of classes that are totally superfluous".. which didn't accurately reflect the actual situation. The college still offers most of the same courses it always has, although many fewer classes thanks to budget cuts. The community education side about which you based your comments are only a small part of the total courses at Sierra. You are making false assumptions based on cherry picked and incomplete information. Having once dated an instructor who "fulled" you isn't going to get you off the hook.

Gregory

Paul, Paine, perhaps the most firmly rooted in idealism of the Revolutionary writers, lost touch with Common Sense spending so much time in France during its bloody revolution. Please note, in his plan for France, that he expected those who did not need the stipend (generated by his new inheritance tax) to not request it.

He was as deluded. Tragically, the Commons doesn't work that way.

Todd Juvinall

OK JoeK, show us your facts about the money. How much is run through the SC budget? Give us your facts and not your hyperbole. Numbers please.

Todd Juvinall

Here is the current budget link for you JoeK. Please tell me where that breakout you say exists is located in this link. Thank you in advance.

http://www.sierracollege.edu/_files/resources/about-us/board/documents/2012-2013-SJCCD-Budget-to-Actuals-as-of-5-24-13.pdf

Joe Koyote

You are grabbing at straws Todd. Your link is to general total budget numbers -- nothing on that sheet is broken down into specific categories.... you might as well have put up a picture of a cat and argued about the missing numbers.

It works this way... Sierra makes money by taking what would be EMPTY classrooms and rents them out to people and in doing so provides a public service by offering classes that might not be available elsewhere. This doesn't cost the taxpayers anything. It is a pay-as-you-go operation. It's that simple. If a class does not get enough people signed up to pay for the classroom, it is cancelled. Simple supply and demand capitalism. End of conversation.

Paul Emery

Fish

A simple google search found this on Wikipedia that must have been lifted from earlier writings including Websters from the 50's. You could have found this with a little effort

"Principle as moral law

It represents a set of values that orient and rule the conduct of a concrete society. The law establishes an obligation in the individual's conscience that belongs to the cultural field in which such values are accepted. It supposes the liberty of the individual as cause, that acts without external coercion, through a process of socialization."

Paul Emery

Oh yeah

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle


Todd Juvinall

JoeK, read my post again. You are apparently unable to grasp the simple question. That is the lnk to their budget, if you have additional levels of info then supply it. Oh, you can't? Then you contention are purely bogus. No facts from you means mine prevail.

fish

A simple google search found this on Wikipedia that must have been lifted from earlier writings including Websters from the 50's. You could have found this with a little effort

"Principle as moral law

It represents a set of values that orient and rule the conduct of a concrete society. The law establishes an obligation in the individual's conscience that belongs to the cultural field in which such values are accepted. It supposes the liberty of the individual as cause, that acts without external coercion, through a process of socialization."

Don't scold me Guitarzan....you said Websters so I'm checking Websters. If it's Wikipedia, then say Wikipedia.

A little more coherence and a less wheedling will help your position immeasurably.

It supposes the liberty of the individual as cause, that acts without external coercion....

No coercion.....oops....then it's a non-starter under "Plan Emery".

Paul Emery

Yes indeed Fish. My view is that we live within our own moral guidelines and that laws are unnecessary in the perfect world. However when Paines view that there are certain situations that require laws to enforce, the above example being help for the unfortunate, then the power of the government comes into being. What triggers that threshold is indeed controversial and the subject for debate but you certainly must believe we live in a nation run by laws that must be enforced to be effective. We should have no debate here. I personally believe that national health care is within that threshold as an essential right in a modern society,

Gregory

Paul, drag yourself back to this Paine in your backside...

Paine was suggesting a 10% inheritance tax on landowners who, in France of the time, were more stratified than most can imagine in the land where Feudalism rose after Charles Martel confiscated church lands to distribute among the warrior class to raise a standing army (pissing off the clergy who got the consolation prize of that army being able to repel invading Moslems unaware of the new army). Now, we have about a 1% tax every year, uncompounded 10% in ten years, 70% plus over a lifetime.

I think landowners are paying more than their share already, don't you?

Gregory

Paul, people already have a right to health care, and get it. They just have to be sick and be willing to wait in line at a clinic.

Poor Bradley Manning, it looks like the health care he'll have a right to in the next 35 years won't include hormone therapy or sexual reassignment surgery. Is that a violation of his right to healthcare?

Paul Emery

Gregory

Well, you should be happy to live in California which has the 2nd lowest property taxes in the country. Way to go Dems!!


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/10/business/11leonhardt-avgproptaxrates.html

Todd Juvinall

California has the second lowest property taxes because of "dems"? Now we can see your folly PaulE. Prop 13 is the reason they are at 1% and that was done by Howard Jarvis etal/republicans. Jerry Brown and the dems were agin it. So please, don't even try to BS anyone here about property taxes. BTW, your dems then took about 90% of our local property taxes, skim their share, pass regs on its use, then trickle it back to us little people for a couple of things.

Gregory

Paul, those aren't the actual property tax rates, and the rate I pay is almost twice what they claim the "effective" rate is.

California is #1 among the states for the top income tax rate being over 10 percent. Those Dems got their way, your snark isn't appropriate.

fish

I personally believe that national health care is within that threshold as an essential right in a modern society....

Emery \e-me-ry\ as a boy's name is pronounced EM-er-ee. It is of Old English origin, and the meaning of Emery is "home strength". From Emmerich. May also possibly be derived from the German name Amalrich, meaning "bravery, vigor; power". Also a variant of Amory. First used as a given name in the 19th-century. Saint Emerus (eighth century) was a French saint.
and

English and French: from a Germanic personal name, Emaurri, composed of the elements amja ‘busy’, ‘industrious’ + ric ‘power’. The name was introduced into England from France by the Normans. There has been some confusion with Amory.

Your surname hints at historical ties to England. Perhaps emigration back to the mother country would be to your liking.....Jolly Old England, the crown, the NHS....sound like they would mean very much to a man of your emotional and political disposition.


Paul Emery

Gregory

Since you took it upon yourself to correct me on the property tax rates can you document your position?

Paul Emery

Fish

Love it or leave it

That's a blast from the past.

Paul Emery

I wrote that to torque you Todd. You're so predictable.

fish

Love it or leave it

Paul...you never disappoint!

Bill Tozer

Since nobody here seems interested in addressing illegal aliens demanding to be put on the transplant waiting list nor the gangland killings in the Safe Passage Zone for children, neither will I. I will spin a yarn concerning Paul's bigger issue.

I see Paul's point clearly. We all see it. Based on love, charity, kindness, and helpfulness to our fellow man. Especially to our fellow suffering humans. The Good Samaritan. Since there are poor (Jesus said the poor will ALWAYS be with us) and Paul E sees their needs up close and PERSONAL with his volunteer work at HH, I see where he is coming from. It changes things when you put a face on it.

Without putting too many words in Mr. Paul's mouth, he has been trying to get through to us that charities are ill equipped to handle the enormous costs and burdens of providing health insurance/health care for the most expensive medical cases. Thus, society (Big Government) is the only one with deep enough pockets to provide medical care for the most costly patients and those without means.

Paine was an avowed atheist (maybe agnostic at best), probably the only one of our founding fathers to declare this. He could not for go for the Christian God because how could a loving God allow his only son to be executed? No Father would kill his son Paine wrote in letters. Thus Paine looked around and saw the lame, the penniless widows and the orphans and said "somebody gotta do something about this."

I believe we are all born with a conscience. We have special names for those who have thrown off their conscious....names like psychopaths and sociopaths come to mind. I believe we are also born with a sense of justice.

It all gets down to when and how to give. And in today's modern world, it is now who will give (including government). Karl Marx missed the boat because he never foresaw the hundreds of millions of dollars people in a free society give voluntarily on a yearly basis.

Reminds me of a story a cop told us the last time I was in traffic school. He said a woman approached him about a bum on the street who appeared in quite rough shape. The policeman knew this particular "bum" as he was a regular fixture on the policeman's beat. The woman was very concerned and said "You should DO something about that man. He needs help. Do something." The officer replied that he just can't arrest the man because he has committed no crime and is not a danger to himself or the community.

The officer then proceeded to tell the woman that if she was so concerned, why not take the man home and "plant" him in her backyard. "He will not harm you, he is quiet, and he will be content just to stand in your backyard. You can watch over him and I assure you he is quite harmless. Why don't YOU do something?" The woman stormed off, flipping off the cop.

We have laws based on moral principles, like it is NOT ok to murder, lie, steal, cheat and stomp on people's feet. Another moral law is not to poke your neighbor's wife. Based on honestly in human relations and doing no harm. And recompense for injury or harm done. But, again, the question is when and how to give that will do no harm. If The Great White Father in Washington does the giving, then am I absolved of doing my moral duty? The human mind can rationalize many things to justify itself.

Paul Emery

Bill

Paine was a Deist, not an atheist, as likely was Jefferson and Franklin and Madison. Because Deists do not believe in organized religion it is difficult to verify as such but historically at the time of the American Revolution it is accepted that that was the case. Here are Paines own words describing the Creator, something no Athiest would write.

"When we survey the works of creation, the revolutions of the planetary system, and the whole economy of what is called nature, which is no other than the laws the Creator has prescribed to matter, we see unerring order and universal harmony reigning throughout the whole. No one part contradicts another. The sun does not run against the moon, nor the moon against the sun, nor the planets against each other. Everything keeps its appointed time and place.

"This harmony in the works of God is so obvious, that the farmer of the field, though he cannot calculate eclipses, is as sensible of it as the philosophical astronomer. He sees the God of order in every part of the visible universe."

Here is a modern definition of Deism.

"Deism is the recognition of a universal creative force greater than that demonstrated by mankind, supported by personal observation of laws and designs in nature and the universe, perpetuated and validated by the innate ability of human reason coupled with the rejection of claims made by individuals and organized religions of having received special divine revelation."

http://www.deism.com/deism_defined.htm

Todd Juvinall

PaulE, torque me? You are too predictable. Too funny. We whip your butt on your own words and you come back for more. Gotta give you credit for getting whooped though.

Bill Tozer

Quite true Paul, which is why I used the term Christian God instead of God. Instead I should have said he rejected Christianity. He rejected the whole notion of a personal God that had blood on his hands. He saw the harmony in place everywhere in nature. That is exactly why Paul Of Taurus wrote that just looking at nature and its harmony to the visible eye, "no man is without excuse." Which is why another wrote (possibly Solemn) that a fool says in his heart there is no God.

Solemn was wise by observing. He wrote that it rains, the waters go back to the oceans, forms clouds, and rains again and there is no new water. I suppose a modern scientist would say there is no new matter. Uncovered, not discovered. Thanks for the clarification concerning Thomas Paine. He was 100% correct about the farmer.

I have had my wars with organized religion which the only verse that makes sense to me and organized religion misses (generally and specifically) "the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." Some call organized religion "legalistic". I do, for the most part. Always exceptions. Fox's Book of Martyrs is an eye opening read if you can still find it around. The other passage that makes sense to me is what Jesus told the religious men of his day. "You search the Scriptures, but you do not come to me for Life."

It is foolish for a finite being to put the infinite in a pigeon hole. And it is just as foolish for an ant to tell me I do not exist, like the tiny ant knows everything about everything. Everything in its limited world. But I digress per usual. What was the topic? Guns and roses?

Gregory

Paul, since you took it upon yourself to claim a list of "effective property tax rates" was truthful, you first. Where did you find how they decided their "effective tax rate" was more accurate than the "actual tax rate", hmmm?

What I paid for my house and how much I'm paying in taxes are public records. Knock yourself out.

On an older subject, have you yet accepted that unions can spend *all* their collected dues on politics and there's nothing a member can do to opt out?

Todd Juvinall

Here is what our DHS brethren do for fun.

http://www.sacbee.com/2013/08/22/5673430/dhs-investigating-employee-running.html

Paul Emery

Gregory

The NYT article stands on it's own. I don't have time to do your research for you. Same with the union stuff. It's your allegation so it's you're research.

By the way, there are more reports of LaMalfa and McClintock puppy and kitten drops from the Brunswick overpass. It stands as true until you research it and prove otherwise.

Joe Koyote

Todd 3:28 -- "if you have additional levels of info then supply it. Oh, you can't? Then you contention are purely bogus. No facts from you means mine prevail." Your "facts" are meaningless and your logic absurd. 80% of opiate based pharmaceutical pain killers produced in the world are consumed in the United States. Where are your facts Todd? Mine are better.. I win.

Does the fact that I taught at a community college for 16 years carry any weight with someone who "attended" Sierra and dated an instructor who "fulled you in"? The other day you mentioned that someone kept going to your blog and calling you an idiot, they were right.

Todd Juvinall

Joe Koyote | 23 August 2013 at 11:50 AM

Based on your responses here I pray the kids you "taught" will be OK. You libs never have facts just feelings. I supply the budget from Sierra College's website, you disagree with it and then produce nothing but personal attacks. BTW, I never mentioned anywhere I can recall that people were calling me an idiot. But, you libs make it up from whole cloth anyway.

16 years of teaching and you can't produce a budget. My my my, the country is toast.

Gregory

Paul, I've done the research but you've not retracted your Keachiesque 'Greg's lying because he didn't cough up a link fast enough to suit me' BS on the other thread. My statements are true and the property tax rates in California are over 1%, including the rate for 45 year old piston engined, propeller driven airplanes.

And while unions have to ask to move dues money from the general fund to an external PAC, they can spend all they want in "member communications" badgering members to vote the way the leadership wants them to vote, running their own campaigns for a ballot measure or a candidate, and a number of other political actions.

Paul Emery

Gregory

I don't recall calling you a liar but I do recall questioning why you refused to show any verification of your viewpoint. It's been almost a month and still no link so I have to assume at this point that it is only your opinion which is fine but I will take it as such. Please, once again show me an example of "badgering" as you put it.

My NYT link shows average property tax rates so it's possible some things are over 1%. Average means average and nothing more or less. Their source is Moody’s Economy.com. By all estimations California property taxes are low.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/10/business/11leonhardt-avgproptaxrates.html?_r=0

Joe Koyote

Todd; If that was a budget then where were the categories under revenue like revenue from the cafeteria, or parking stickers, or book sales? What you linked to was a balance sheet.. not a budget. What happened Todd, was you made disparaging remarks about course offerings at Sierra based on the Kaleidoscope Community education schedule that you thought was the regular course schedule which Sierra has not sent out in the mail for almost 10 years. I, very politely, pointed out that you may have made a mistake and the rest of our exchanges have been your blowing smoke out your rear trying to cover the fact that you mistook Kaleidoscope for the Schedule of classes and then went off trying to make some lame political statement out of it. Business as usual for you Todd.

Joe Koyote

Todd --"BTW, I never mentioned anywhere I can recall that people were calling me an idiot. But, you libs make it up from whole cloth anyway."

You conservatives seem to have selective memory and conveniently forget things. I know you really remember -- the guy's name was Ed Peritz and he would go to your blog and lambast you and call you names. If you want to refresh your memory just read the posts on your blog. They were still there this afternoon in your archives. He was in here one day doing the same thing and you mentioned that he was the same guy who came to your blog and called you and idiot, or stupid, or something like that.

So just who are the people who makes things up from whole cloth anyway?

Bill Tozer

Think I will bypass this junior college debate and go toss some puppies and kitties off the overpass. Boy, that will get them animals rights ladies protesting at my hearing for sure. Definitely make The Union.

Since I got thrown out of the last sensitively training at work, I think I will go out amoung the animal rights activists decrying my treatment of puppies, kitties, hamsters, and possums and tell them to grow up and grow a real pair of hooters, like MX Warheads. That should endear them to me.


Digression over. Back to Dr. Rebane's update. So, 3 bored young men decided to have some fun and gunned down a tourist. Lets see here. There was a black, a Latino, and a semi white dude. I say this was the work of the Rainbow Coalation. Oh, boys will be boys,

Kinda like the Treyvon Martin racial thing where no white dudes were involved.

Todd Juvinall

Joe Koyote, you are too funny. You just can't tell the truth and you try and hide the facts to cover your sorry butt's mistakes. But, you libs are all the same. I gave you the facts, you give none except some yapping and we are supposed to marvel at your grand intelligence. Well, maybe when you teach those sorry little minds of mush you can get away with your methods. Not here. Give us the links to back up your claims and we can part. But you can't, you have nothing. I feel so sorry for the kids you must have wrecked in your 16 years of "teaching".

Ed Peritz must be your pal. He was a known-it-all bloviator and I called him on it just like I did you. You should go have a cocktail, change your phony name to your real one, and take a snooze. Too funny!

Michael Anderson

Dear RR readers,

This is a fascinating debate. I just got back this afternoon from throwing some riding ponies that were left over from the fair off the Brunswick overpass...they didn't splat as satisfyingly as the big-ass pumpkins I like to toss from Town Talk to celebrate the harvest each Fall, but they'll have to do for now.

Anyway, I'm off to Burning Man shortly. I hear there's an art exhibit out there this year, sort of an audio-animatronics presentation, with Todd Juvenile repeatedly entering and exiting a faux TSA X-Ray scanner and touting his heavy balz in an Algore sort of way, and then proceeding to the end of the conveyor belt where there is a Economics 101 classroom that Todd ends up teaching, 'splaining the difference between a balance sheet, a budget projection, and a P&L.

I'm told you can also get snow cones off to the side of this exhibit: "Separate-But-Equal" Coconut Swirls, Big White Vanilla Offerings, and Chocolate "Do-It-In-The-Back-Alley" Surprise.

Here is the preferred charter operator, flying out of a field (KGOO) near you: http://flyalpine.com/?page_id=2613

Michael A.

Bill Tozer

Burning Man was ok until they got all bent out of shape when I accidentally and prematurely set "the BM" on fire before the conclusion of the festivities. Man o man, you would have thought that people would have been a bit more understanding. Good thing they nabbed the wrong guy and I managed to pretend to be disgusted how anyone could do such a dastardly deed. Sure was a great fireball even though a few days early. The guy they nabbed must be a bad lawyer to sit in jail for that long. I better stay away this year in case that convicted man is after revenge. Yes, I better stay low.

Mr. Anderson, in case you are about to do what I have been thinking about doing again...it is a known fact that a frozen cadaver borrowed from the deep freeze at the morgue will not shatter into a million pieces when thrown off the overpass. It will just bounce. Trust me. But it is rather hilarious to watch people slam on their brakes beneath as the body hits the pavement, especially if they have tailgaters on their rear bumper. Wonder what caused that accident?? Well, off to spread more joy and peace and healing words to those who are hurting tonight. Have fun at BM.

Oh, on topic with this one. Bored teenagers beat to death 5 foot 88 year old man.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/veteran-of-battle-for-okinawa-in-world-war-ii-beaten-to-death-in-random-spokane-attack/2013/08/23/71e46118-0c67-11e3-89fe-abb4a5067014_story.html

Michael Anderson

Dear Mister Tozer,

I am not sure why you insist on delivering to this venue the repeated dysfunction of Washington D.C., Chicago, Detroit, and other fucked up environs of the failed American Zeitgeist. What's the point?

Dude, we get it. Why do you think I live in Nevada City Disneyland? Where the biggest problem is whether some boardwalk flower planters and bench seats on Commercial Street will impinge on the flow of heavenly commerce?

I do thank you for the advice about the cadavers. Not that I was thinking about dropping some of them bad boys, but good to know nonetheless.

I will definitely have fun at Burning Man, but I will also be working. We have an airport out there, 88NV, that caters to the beau monde of Sillyclone Valley, and wranglin' those critters is taxiing, let me tell you. Last year there were 17 Global Express machines from Europe and other places in the world (http://www.bombardier.com/en/aerospace/specialized-aircraft/global-6000-and-global-5000.html) parked on the tarmac in Reno, and their passengers were ferried by Jet Rangers to their plug-and-play RV kingdoms through our airport.

Of course, the hoi polloi aka dirty hippies were relegated to long lines and insufficient services. But isn't that the American way?

M.

Todd Juvinall

George, I am watching some of the 50 year March on DC and a question came to my pea brain about one of their complaints. Equal pay for equal work. Is there any place you know of that can show us if a say, engineer, of different races in the USA is paid differently? I could be wrong and maybe these complainers in DC are simply talking about hamburger flippers, but maybe not.

Reading the fantasies of MA here is like reading a Hannibal Lecter screed in Goodhousekeeping Magazine on the latest recipe. The man is off about 90 degrees from real.

Michael Anderson

Todd, here's a thought: now that the economy is starting to turn around, isn't it about time you pulled some permits and built another spec house so you could walk away from it and saddle the taxpayers with another foreclosure?

Todd Juvinall

MichaelA, I have no idea what you are talking about. But tell us all about your trip to take part in the perverted Burning Man. We are all ears.

Regarding the economy. The news on housing nationwide yesterday was down 13% from last year. Not a good time to build.

fish

From the land of Eurosocialist plenty.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/10262743/Italian-factory-owner-moves-company-to-Poland-while-staff-are-on-holiday.html

fish

Hmmmm lousy typepad squirrels....

Again then:


From the land of Eurosocialist plenty

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/10262743/Italian-factory-owner-moves-company-to-Poland-while-staff-are-on-holiday.html

fish

...and then you wind up with a double post! Meh!

Michael Anderson

Todd gushed: "But tell us all about your trip to take part in the perverted Burning Man."

Look, I realize you don't want people to know that you're a regular at Burning Man. But the truth must out. Here is a picture of you enjoying one of last year's art projects: http://costumenetwork.com/MainGallery/108/goatsassoftruth

Gregory

"I'm just using Gregory's tact of spreading unfounded rumors as truth. I guess that's fair game here."

Remember writing that, Paul? It was prompted by your misunderstanding of the CTA's asking members for their permission to move a small sum (on the order of $20) every year to an unaccountable 501c3 (the CTA Institute for Teaching) as being *all* of their political spending. If I don't jump when you demand more information it doesn't move my assertions into the domain of "unfounded rumor".

The CTA funding of politics is legendary... "The CTA alone has spent more money in California politics than Chevron, AT&T, Philip Morris and Western States Petroleum Association combined" (the wiki). Virtually all of regular CTA dues are spent with politics in mind, including member outreach that browbeats members into voting the way the union wants them to. If a teacher quits (or never joins the CTA) they are forced to reaffirm this every year, and the "agency fees", supposedly only supporting issues related to collective bargaining, includes issues like LBGT outreach activities that some christian conservatives (like the ones named in the lawsuit) are not happy their agency fees are being used to fund.

I've no problem with anyone who wishes to fund LBGT outreach, or DEM causes, but the issue is forcing folks to do so as a condition of employment.

Todd Juvinall

MichaelA, is that you coming out of that? Looks like it to me. Too funny!

Michael Anderson

Todd, if you can still remember what happened, this was your costume design that caused you to become a registered sex offender. Own it.

http://costumenetwork.com/MainGallery/108/multihandyouthfountain

Paul Emery

Gregory

Why is it so hard for you to provide me a link to back up your assertions?

Michael Anderson

Todd, here's that costume you designed: http://costumenetwork.com/MainGallery/108/multihandbabe

I love it!

Bill Tozer

My, my, where do we start??
1) Mr. Fish, your comment on another thread is the best short statement of the year. "Everybody in, nobody out." Brilliant. Never heard a better more apt description of socialism or socialized medicine in my life. "Welcome to the Hotel California....but you can never leave."

2) Mr. Anderson, you are on a roll lately. This BM stuff has you in fine spirits I might add. Is that Todd's bum-bum I see on the left of the pic your posted? Ah, the wardrobe designer snuck himself into the picture. Very clever. Alfred Hitchcock would be proud.

3) Mr. Gregory, at least no one forced somebody to be an educator. They may force you to pay dues or a stippling to unworthy and counter production causes, but here is something more beyond the teachers' money being confiscated: Everybody now is going to pay The Race, aka, La Raza. Yep, 50 million to start. Oh my, everybody in, nobody out. And I thought Obamacare was complicated. How naive of me.


http://ricochet.com/main-feed/La-Raza-the-Big-Winner-in-Immigration-Reform-Bill

3) Mr. Gregory

Gregory

Paul, use Keachie logic and tactics, you'll get nowhere with me. You didn't read the links I did leave, so why should I give you more? You're boxing, not reasoning.

Why did you think that checkoff to divert funds from CTA general funds into their captive 501c3 was the source of the $300 million a year the CTA has to spend?

Tozer: "They may force you to pay dues or a stippling [???] to unworthy and counter production causes"

No, the issue isn't dues, it's about freedom of speech. One shouldn't be forced to fund politics one disagrees with as a condition of public employment.

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