‘We know what you really said/thought/meant’

George Rebane

One of the prime indications of radical Islam’s victory is the retreat of free speech in the west.  In the US we are unaware of the intimate connection between the Fourth and First Amendments.  Having given up our privacy on all fronts in the false expectation of guaranteed security, our government now monitors, collects, and stores every possible action that we perform in public or in what used to be the privacy of our homes.  Our houses are no longer our castles, but closely watched dormitories from a bygone era renewed.  And tomorrow it will be worse.

Stalin, Mao, and other mass murderers of their own citizens made no pretense of operating under laws, they argued that state security trumped consideration of such niceties.  And the state was ever insecure.  In those times, times which are now returning, the state was always that ultimate arbiter of what a citizen really said, thought, and intended.  The actual record of spoken word or written speech was of no use to a citizen wishing to defend himself against the state intent on his destruction.

The chilling institutional ‘we know what you really said/thought/meant’ is an unanswerable charge against an autocracy, especially one that has a deep archive of records and recordings of every expression you ever allowed yourself, no matter in what context or environment.  With an abundance of data on every citizen, a case can be cobbled together to support any and every conceivable indictment the state needs to control or contain an individual – the ‘what you really…’ gambit is the state’s trump card.

The Fourth Amendment reads, “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

The abrogation of the Fourth – now having been admittedly violated regularly “thousands of times” by our state security apparatchiks – means that ALL expressions during our waking hours will be a matter of permanent, searchable record.  In past years, we know how differently we have behaved when we were told that we were being recorded.  The communicated rate of information instantly slowed down and became deliberate, guarded, and more ambiguous (to give us wiggle room in the future should we be called to account).  Lawyers and politicians have excelled in this kind of communicating, the rest of us have despised it.  Being a ‘straight talker’ in America has always been an admired attribute.

But can we continue to be straight talkers if we are always thinking about the words and actions coming back at us within the context of someone else’s interpretation of ‘what we really said/thought/meant’?  And that someone is always a person or agency, more powerful than we, that does not have our best interests in mind.

The result is that the violation of our privacy – within the intent and context of the Fourth – means that our freedom to express ourselves, to talk straight in order to communicate with appropriate clarity and get things done, has been compromised.  In short, our First Amendment rights will have been constructively abrogated when all of our past is a matter of record to be interpreted by others in the service of their agendas.

Finally, we again come to the asymmetry between the Left and Right in these matters.  The Left are the promulgators, monitors, and enforcers of politically correct speech.  It is they who have worked hard to enshrine these interpretations into laws under labels such as ‘hate speech’.  It is they who know what are ‘dog whistle’ phrases that carry the meanings only they may assign.  It is they who in the media invoke the ‘what they really …’ rule, and then go on to lambast ad nauseum these homebrewed infractions.  It is they who, for example, can ruin a career of person who honestly admits to having used the word ‘nigger’ in their distant past.  (And in their small part, these pages have also been witness to numerous invocations from the Left of ‘what they/you really meant …’.)

Having already made enormous strides in academe, the lamestream, and public offices everywhere, this is how autocracy starts on the road to a society that conforms agenda with realization.

Comments

[rlcrabb]

One has only to read the daily posts at Salon or Huffingpuff (sic) Post to see who has been outed as a racist, sexist, pervert, denier, Etc. Talk about yer high tech lynch mob!

[Michael Anderson]

Wow, the world is coming to an end. I think I will just go out into the backyard and shoot myself, after reading this.

(-;

[Bill Tozer]

This goes far beyond political correctness run amok. Seattle urges its government employees to refrain from using the word citizen. Might be offensive to non citizen residents. Didn't know them Canooks were so touchy. Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10219389/Seattle-bans-words-citizen-and-brown-bag.html

But this goes to stifle free speech in our homes and what we say on-line and at social gatherings. Didn't Dr. Rebane's quote of the Amendments include being secure with our papers? You would get 20 years in prison for simply criticizing Castro if you lived in that socialistic heaven. Write bad things about the Russian Premier? Naughty, naughty, off to the Gulag for you.

But this is something even more. Its like the East Germans monitoring their citizens and citizens monitoring citizens to see who is an enemy of the state. Turn in your Grannie and Daddy for what they said in the privacy of their homes.

Nowadays you can't even criticize or question openly the President. Its considered threatening his life. Don't matter what you said. Its your intents and hidden meanings, not your actions. Just ask Joe the Plumber what happened to him after he asked Candidate Obama a question after Obama came up to him. Joe should not exercised any of his rights to stand along his fence and should have fled inside his home.

I don't give a hoot about some rodeo clown poking fun at Obama. Chevy Chase made a career out lampooning Gerald Ford as a man would constantly tripped over his own two feet. Rich Little made a career out of poking fun at every President. Loved his Reagen impressions, starting off with "well,".

I know they have been listening to the land line phone calls for decades. That is why I never utter the word boob (with the second o really a "m") after getting a heads up way before 9/11. Back then it was just the friendly FBI or SS that paid you a visit and tailed you in them black sedans. Used those old box cameras with the big fat lenses. Oh, SS means Secret Service.

No, what Dr. Rebane is talking about is more than some rodeo clown or Joe the Plumber or even using the word "citizen in a memo. No, this is uncharted territory for our nation, and old stuff in the former Soviet Bloc, Eastern Europe, and most 3rd world counties. We just are better at it with all our new fancy gadgets.

[Al]

Dr. Rebane or: how I learned to stop worrying snd love the Boob

[Jon Dough, formerly the poster named Bill Tozer]

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/08/16/199590/seeing-threats-feds-target-instructors.html#.UhIdAH9OSSq

[Joe Koyote]

Good commentary until the next to last paragraph when you turned it into a typical partisan rant. "Cluck cluck!" said the chickens. The sky is falling and it's all their fault.

[Bill Tozer]

Mr. Koyote wrote "Good commentary until the next to last paragraph when you turned it into a typical partisan rant." Aha! So transparent. I know what you really meant. Wash your mind out.

[George Rebane]

JoeK 1157am - Thanks for the kind words, but the real question important to these pages - Are any of the claims in the cited paragraph (the "typical partisan rant") factually off base?

[Joe Koyote]

Bill -- as far as my dirty mind sees it, protecting corporate interests is a more realistic motive than socialistic boogie men.

[Walt]

Then there was that "movie" about snuffing "W". That was A,OK for Leftists when that came out. GOD help they guy if a movie was even thought of, or even considered,
for "this" sitting ( on his thumb) Prez.

Speaking of Lefty movies, " The Butler" . Is FULL of revisionism. IF you watch
the "made for LIBS" trashing of history, wait for the part where the Reagans
get "revised".

Once again the Hollywood LIBS claim "creative license" to mess with history,
and paint it in their image of what they think it should be.(or been)

[Joe Koyote]

I don't like to "argue" facts because there are "facts" to support any claim and such a discussion becomes a pointless "my facts are right and yours are wrong" exchange. From a philosophical point of view, I don't disagree with your general assumptions. People with a cause typically exaggerate their claims right and left to get the attention they think they deserve. In order to be fair and balanced (pun intended) it should also be pointed out that the erosion of privacy most benefits those in control, in this case the global corporatists. In my opinion, it is they who have the grandest agenda and most to lose should their efforts fail. Those whom you like to call socialists really have nothing to lose except their time and pride. They can always call it a day and go home while the billionaires perceive the masses coming after their treasure and their gilded way of life. If they lose, they lose big. They can't call it a day and go home. I am much more afraid of them then a bunch of wannabe do-gooders, who as a whole are pretty harmless. The ongoing revelations of corporate crime and greed on a global scale seems to me to be a lot more sinister.

[George Rebane]

JoeK 121pm - I take that to be a NO to my 1258pm question.

But your bringing up the 'corporatists vs socialists' conflict its assessment is on target as the Left's view of global political dynamic. On the other side, as a conservetarian I see the so-called corporatist danger to be hand-in-glove with the socialist danger. Corporatism cannot exist without an all powerful state to support this kind of government/industry relationship. Such powerful states are the haven of central planners who ratchet up the government's share of the economy and control of its citizenry through every means possible.

This is antithetical conservative and libertarian principles of governance that promote smaller government, lower taxes, fewer regulations, private ownership, entrepreneurship, individual responsibility, constitutionality, and broadest practice of liberty. In short, a propensity toward distributed (local) planning, control, and decision making.

And therein lies the polarization of two major schools of social organization and governance. Neither can convince the other, and both see error in compromising their beliefs.

[Paul Emery]

George

How is it you justify you're infatuation with the Republican Party and say such things as this.

"Corporatism cannot exist without an all powerful state to support this kind of government/industry relationship."

Are you saying the Republicans are substantially different than the Democrats on this issue?

[George Rebane]

PaulE 208pm - Didn't know I qualified as one infatuated with GOP. But I believe that Repubs are substantially different from the Dems in their backing of 'too big to fail' corporations as witnessed primarily by the political support patterns. Its the mid-sized and smaller businesses that steadfastly support the GOP. The big guys love equally whoever is in power. And lately the needle has tilted even further to the left with companies like GE, Microsoft, and Google giving significant shares of their contributions to the Dems.

Don't take any of this to mean that both parties have not been enthusiastic supporters of the industrial/government complex. We all have to pick our poison.

[Joe Koyote]

George: 1:40
“I take that to be a NO to my 1258pm question.” Your original question was whether or not I disputed the factual base of your claims. You gave no facts in support of your claims. What I do support is the notion that one side of an argument will and does go to extremes to achieve their goals. What I disagree with is the ideological righteousness you often show by always painting the left as the perpetrators, the wrong thinkers, the henchmen, when in fact such antics are standard in the playbook of politics in general without party or ideological affiliation. Let us not forget that the person who mandated the use of the term “nutritional deficiency” throughout the federal empire in lieu of the word “hunger” was none other than George W. Bush. Why? So the general public wouldn't be reminded of the growing chasm between the rich and the poor in America. So, to answer your question, if the "factual basis" of your claims does not include examples of the same antics on the right as those on the left, then I do not agree to the “factual basis” on which you make your claim, because it does not include other pertinent information necessary to make a reasoned decision.

We agree on the corporatist threat but you call their goons “socialists” and I call their goons “fascists”. What’s the difference?

[Paul Emery]

Gosh George

I guess you don't consider Exxon a major corporation. 02:32 PM Rebane "And lately the needle has tilted even further to the left with companies like GE, Microsoft, and Google giving significant shares of their contributions to the Dems."
Exxon’s federal campaign contributions totaled $2.77 million for the 2012 cycle, sending 89 percent to Republicans.

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/totals.php?id=D000000129&cycle=2012

[Gregory]

Paul 304PM

Petrochemicals are the prime targets of the carbon police, currently DEM. It's arguable the Exxon contributions are the proverbial exception that proves the rule, but they still hedged their bets with $300k to Dems, not exactly chicken feed unless you're a corporate chicken farmer who has already moved out of California.

[fish]

Exxon’s federal campaign contributions totaled $2.77 million for the 2012 cycle, sending 89 percent to Republicans.

Again from Open Secrets:

As you mentioned....From "Oil and Gas" selected industries, total to these candidates: $7,924,157 (Dems 10.1% and Repubs 89.7%)

And then of course picking a different cherry. From "Education" selected industries, total to these candidates: $26,518,372 (Dems 81.5% and Repubs 18.3%)

"Big Education" kinda makes "Big Oil" look downright cheap in their support of their TEAM.

[Joe Koyote]

How about individual spending --

1. Every single member of congress received donations from the 1/10 of 1% of wealth holders.
2. the 1/10 donated 28% of total political donations (that is reported donations) for the entire country
3. They gave $410m to candidates and $500m to superPACs
4. 59% went to Republicans
5. 25% of the total contributions by "big donors" came from Wall St.

This is, of course, in addition to the political donations made by corporations in which the 1/10 of 1% hold interests.

[Russ Steele]

JK you wrote:

"Let us not forget that the person who mandated the use of the term “nutritional deficiency” throughout the federal empire in lieu of the word “hunger” was none other than George W. Bush."

Can you please provide a source. It is true the Bush's Surgeon General requested a change to the 80 year old Food Pyramid to correct some know Omega 3 nutritional deficiency, which George Bush supported. Is this what you are referencing, or something more sinister?

[Ben Emery]

Yep George,
Both the Republican and Democratic parties have absolutely distorted and abused the powers that are granted to them by the people and our constitution.

It seems to me a strong defense of the Republican Party abuses and distortions takes place on a daily basis on RR. Its the Democrats fault or progressives when I have shown you over and over again that it is actually the progressives and libertarians who have been pushing back against such policies consistently no matter what party controls the executive or legislative branches. It has been the partisans defending the policies, which allows the policies to grow even more out of control because we are only allowed to talk government policies in a two party paradigm.

I do find it ironic that Moa and Stalin are mentioned but Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, and Pinochet among other right wing tyrants were conveniently absent. It is these subtle or not so subtle indicators, which makes many of your legitimate commentary into partisan or politically charged rants.
As for the left being political correctness abusers, over all that is correct but I absolutely cannot stand political correctness. Its intentions were good but in practice it has failed beyond description. So when I challenge your bigoted remarks it is based on I believe your a bigot not because I am trying to force you to concede to political correctness.

[Todd Juvinall]

Funny how we on the right are expected to be perfect by those from the left on all issues. I for one could care less that Exxon and other energy give 7 million to the politicos. They are at least supplying something humanity needs. It is the gazillion bucks that the eco nuts give in time and money to the lefty politicians who are looking to enxleve us. I would think PaulE would know the difference. BenE I give him a break for his stupidity.

[Ben Emery]

Correction of 19 August 2013 at 04:46 PM

I guess my first sentence is technically wrong, the constitution limits the powers of our government.

[Paul Emery]

Gregory, Fish

Thanks for validating my position that our government is bought and sold by special interests and there is no significant difference in either party on this matter.

[fish]

Thanks for validating my position that our government is bought and sold by special interests and there is no significant difference in either party on this matter.

Thanks for validating my position that you are completely disingenuous when you attempt to make your political points.

[Joe Koyote]

Russ -- My apologies.. I mixed my metaphors you are correct. The Bush administration did not enforce the term "nutritional deficiency" on the federal government.. the correct term was "food insecurity" as reported by the Associated Press 11/16/06.

[George Rebane]

BenE 446pm - I included those second rate killers under "others", the ones you mentioned are not even in the same league as Stalin and Mao.

I didn't know that a factual basis had to be balanced. I thought facts could stand on their own merits. My claimed facts were given in the paragraph you decried -

Finally, we again come to the asymmetry between the Left and Right in these matters. The Left are the promulgators, monitors, and enforcers of politically correct speech. It is they who have worked hard to enshrine these interpretations into laws under labels such as ‘hate speech’. It is they who know what are ‘dog whistle’ phrases that carry the meanings only they may assign. It is they who in the media invoke the ‘what they really …’ rule, and then go on to lambast ad nauseum these homebrewed infractions. It is they who, for example, can ruin a career of person who honestly admits to having used the word ‘nigger’ in their distant past. (And in their small part, these pages have also been witness to numerous invocations from the Left of ‘what they/you really meant …’.)

What are the problems with my attributing these actions/policies to the Left?

[Joe Koyote]

"I didn't know that a factual basis had to be balanced." sure it does... ask Fox News.. fair and balanced.

My claimed facts were given in the paragraph you decried -" Those aren't facts, they are your opinions and perceptions without any supporting evidence to support them.

What are the problems with my attributing these actions/policies to the Left? ---

Nothing, as long as you don't mind that you are passing on half truths that give a one dimensional viewpoint of a complex issue. I am not disagreeing that political correctness is out of hand, just that it is not a problem that is exclusive to the left as you seem to imply.

[Ben Emery]

Todd,
"Exxon and other energy give 7 million to the politicos"

Exxon/ Mobil receives nearly a billion dollars annually with subsides, which are picked up by taxpayer. The American Coalition for Ethanol estimates that when combined with state and local government aid to large oil companies, subsidies amount to anywhere from $133.8 billion to $280.8 billion annually from all sources of taxpayer aid that goes to the oil and gas industry.

So essentially Exxon/ Mobil as are every other big corporation in every industry are using the money we give them to buy off our government for favorable treatment. I wonder why the term fascist and corporatist keep popping into my head when talking with you guys?

[Ben Emery]

George,

If you noticed I didn't disagree and even some what agreed with you on the political correctness point.

On the only using tyrants from what would be considered left is factual other than communism doesn't prescribe dictatorial powers but it evolved to it and that is one of the reasons why large scale communism is a absolute failure as a political philosophy and ideology. Just as President Obama doesn't represent a government even close to a democratic republic.

So to make my point, your free to make the point as you did and I am free to point out why it could be considered partisan or politically charged. We are both free to disagree.

[George Rebane]

JoeK 604pm - I believe you are confused in quoting FN's news delivery slogan to support your contention that one cannot assert that 'water is wet' without an accompanying contrary example.

Regarding what I stated in the paragraph, books and scholarly works have been written about the verity of each claim. If they are only opinions, then they are shared by at least, say, 150M Americans, many of whom are liberals.

I would like to see some evidence that the promotion of political correctness is NOT an exclusive realm of the Left.

BenE 611pm - the American Coalition for Ethanol is bankrupt commercially, ecologically, and intellectually. Diverting America's food/feed grains to the mandated manufacture of ethanol is one of the biggest economic mistakes made by our federal government (and the states that supported it). Given the revenues of the large American oil companies which come to about $987B annually, it is safe to estimate that the total sector pulls in between $1.0-1.1T annually. To claim that on top of that taxpayers defray $130-280B of their expenses annually is more than a bit ludicrous. I would like to see that estimate from anyone except the ethanol lobby which has been leading more than their share of double dummy discussions on fossil fuel subsidies. But that may only be my druthers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_companies_by_revenue

For a more reasoned discussion of the subject (and a total subsidy number closer to $4B annually) read 'The Surprising Reason That Oil Subsidies Persist: Even Liberals Love Them' which concludes with -

If we are to have a productive discussion of fossil fuel subsidies, it is important that participants understand what they are, their intended purpose, and the projected impact of removing them. Projecting the impact requires more than a guess. Because of misleading political rhetoric, people imagine these subsidies as cash payments to oil companies. But, many of these subsidies are not what people think they are. In many cases they are benefiting people who have nothing to do with the oil industry — yet the money spent on these programs is still tallied against the oil industry. The result is a great deal of anger over spending that often benefits the angry people. That is why it is so hard to get rid of fossil fuel subsidies; a majority of the population likely supports at least some of them without realizing that they are in fact subsidies. And until those who are loudly screaming that we must eliminate these subsidies actually take the time to understand what they are — as well as the impact of removing them — we can expect there will continue to be much heat and little light on this topic.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/energysource/2012/04/25/the-surprising-reason-that-oil-subsidies-persist-even-liberals-love-them/

Cue the crickets.

[Todd Juvinall]

BenE, if I am not mistaken what you call a subsidy to the oil companies is a set of tax credits and the oil depletion allowance. Those companies paid billions of dollars in taxes as did their employees. So what is the problem? I would say the outright gift of taxpayers money to supply welfare checks, Section 8 Housing vouchers and all the rest to the tune of five TRILLION buckos is where you should be making your angry voice heard.

[Bill Tozer]

Dr. Rebane's article is much more than silly political correctness. This is a new era which Big Bro has launched with increasing velocity its ever expanding spying on little joey q. public.

How we always get off on evil big corporations is beyond me. Maybe I was wrong for stating on another thread that libs always see things through the prism of race, first and foremost. Yes , I was dead wrong. I am a worm not worthy of the angler's hook. I stand corrected.

Libs see everything through the prism of race AND evil capitalism pig Big Businesses. Its their Alpha and Omega no matter what the topic. What George W did is just filler. I hope this corrects the record.

What separates some of us is that the term "illegal alien." The other side of the great divide calls them "undocumented workers", whether they are working or not. My side prefers the term "deportees."

I once wrote a letter to the Berkley City Council. It was back when they were looking for a PC name for "manhole cover'. They appealed to the public for help. Being a good citizen in the unselfish spirit of helpfulness, I wrote them with my suggestion. I told them that the term manhole has been used for about 80 years now. To be fair to the opposite sex, we should call them "womanhole covers" for the next 80 years. I received no response to my letter written my this hick in the sticks. Puzzling. Maybe the letter was lost in the mail.

Carry on. Back to evil controlling monopolistic heartless corporations no matter what the topic. Don't forget to reference George W for filler. Spying is unfair to people of color is a good starting point.

[Ben Emery]

George,
What jumped out at me about the commentary was the irony, Rovarian projection, or Orwellian doublethink. Just the other day you were proudly wearing your oppression flag with the defense of Stop and Frisk policy, which is 100% violation of our 4th amendment rights.

So I will make the assertion once again that as long as it isn't your rights being violated you support it or will turn a blind eye.

[Ben Emery]

Todd,
If you can't already see the problem you are hopeless and more of a fascist than I thought.

[Bill Tozer]

Brother Ben, the good thing about fascists is they are all on the same page. They have simply found a way to make everybody "just get along' in speech, thoughts, and actions.

[Paul Emery]

Fish

Is there a difference in your view between the Dems and Pubs on the influence of special interest money?

[Ben Emery]

Bill,

"They have simply found a way to make everybody "just get along' in speech, thoughts, and actions."

Unless you want worker rights, are a journalist, part of academia, or a civil libertarian.

[Bill Tozer]

Exactly my point Bro Ben. Don't know about the academia part cause they seem to be living breathing fascists on our campuses. If you are saying the thought police oozing out from Big Brother's fascist foul mouth originates in Washington DC, then we are on the same page. Heard some fascists a few years back dissing some Tea Party folks on the boob tube for carrying around copies of the Constitution. Image people carrying copies of that document in their hip pockets. Them Tea Party types were really off the reservation. Good thing Big Brother knows how to pound down the nail that stands up.

[fish]

Is there a difference in your view between the Dems and Pubs on the influence of special interest money?

What does that matter. You already asserted that..that our government is bought and sold by special interests and there is no significant difference in either party

And yet you always seem to cheerlead for that certain faction of our "bought and sold" government.

I don't mind that you swoon for the left....it's just that you are always so "Clintonesque" in your positioning regarding the issues in your posts.

[fish]

To be fair to the opposite sex, we should call them "womanhole covers" for the next 80 years.

How bout referring to them as "Chastity Plates"?

[Ben Emery]

Bill,
"thought police oozing out from Big Brother's fascist foul mouth originates in Washington DC" I don't think the PC police are a political group but rather the hippy dippy faction of our society that has somehow caught on in the yuppy circles. It drives me nuts and ultimately my wife since I will go on anti political correctness comic routines where I basically use 100% unacceptable language according to our current society. I coach Jr High and High School sports and despite being a very laid back person am considered very old school in my style. I don't throw things as the players but do make all players do a ton of team running for the misbehavior of a few. We win as a team, lose as a team, celebrate as a team, and take consequences for bad behavior as a team. Many players think it is unfair. You guessed it, my reply is "life isn't fair" deal with it.

[Todd Juvinall]

BenE you are too funny. When someone disagrees with your childish view of life they are a "fascist" It appears you do not know what a fascist is. But that doesn't surprise me. The irony of your accusation is breathtaking. My father fought fascism in WW2 to ensure a putz like you could maintain free speech. You are a disgrace to the American flag and the ideals of our Constitution.

[Bill Tozer]

Somehow this all sounds too familiar. Like a fuzzy memory of the past about results don't matter, everyone is a winner or its not fair. Just can't put my finger on it;

http://poststar.com/news/local/librarian-suggests-turning-the-page-on-longtime-reading-club-winner/article_bdbebbc6-0625-11e3-b6f4-0019bb2963f4.html

[Ben Emery]

Todd,
No when you believe the taxpayers should pick up the cost of doing business though our government from the most profitable company on the planet, that is what makes you a fascist.

I strongly encourage you to actually research the political ideologies and what they stand for because you obviously haven't a clue.

[Todd Juvinall]

BenE, you are too funny. No one here can possibly take anything you say seriously. You call a person a fascist for what you call a business/government collaboration yet are totally in the tank for "single payer". I think you are simply uneducated BenE.

[George Rebane]

re BenE's 823am - A most perverse definition of fascism since it indicts almost all members of Congress who back corporate subsidies. We expected nothing less.

[Ben Emery]

George, 20 August 2013 at 09:56 AM
We live under an undemocratic fascist/ corporatist government at the moment. The fact that organizations such as ALEC, Heritage Foundation, Sierra Club, or the thousands of others write model legislation and buy off enough local, state, and federal representatives to put the legislation forward. When a vast majority of that legislation favors a small few at the top or industries what would you call it?

On the violation of 4th amendment of others and your overall bigoted (not political correctness I believe you are a bigot) view towards the poor and people of color, I am interested to know George, what did you think of the civil rights movement and the their actions such as the March On Washington? In the late 50's and throughout the 60's and 70's.

[Ben Emery]

Todd,
Reread what you wrote and then tell me what how single payer works. Not your FOX version but how it actually works and the cost of health care. Tell me how that a single payer system would benefit private health care industry.

The necessities of life within the society we set up should be either controlled by us or heavily regulated by us. Health care is one of those necessities, we all need to see a doctor from time to time. We are the "United" States of America, the Articles of Confederation didn't work out to well.

[Ben Emery]

George,
Subsidizing an the most profitable industry and companies in world history is a slap in the face of the purpose of subsides.

Give billions away to corporations that make profits in the tens of billions but cut off programs that help a person who gets laid off because unregulated banks take down the whole economy is a good thing. Nice morals you got going on.

[fish]

Give billions away to corporations that make profits in the tens of billions but cut off programs that help a person who gets laid off because unregulated banks take down the whole economy is a good thing.

I do so enjoy your rants which seem to consist of, at various times, the moral indignation of a 1930's social agitator contrasted with a post successful election preachy sit down on the Charlie Rose Show.

Very entertaining.

Ben....listen very carefully. You're not going to fix any of this. Your course of action...to hang out on the farm and lay low is the only one worth pursuing.

[George Rebane]

BenE 1128am++ - Unfortunately, your claim of legislation overwhelmingly favoring the few and not the many is not supported by the allocations in the federal budget.

I approved of and supported the civil rights movement in its protest phases - marches, sit-ins, demonstrations, etc. I wholly disapproved of how then these just grievances were addressed by leftwing legislation and programs (e.g. Great Society) which essentially re-established the 'plantation' with a new cynical leadership class whose interests lay in the creation, growth, and maintenance of an ignorant, dependent, and compliant constituency. In short, the civil rights movement was successfully co-opted by the Left as part of an encompassing agenda to make America a socialist country.

While you denigrate my morals, you are blind to alternative views (technically, alternative ways of 'explainng away') of the evidence and of what is going on. As far as I can tell you are a moral person, and proudly at every opportunity declare your moral superiority. I believe that your disabilities are not due to a lack of morals, but instead can be laid at the feet of other causal factors.

[Bill Tozer]

We all know what Obama meant when he said if you like your plan you can keep it: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/obamacare-quirk-insurance-costs-could-132736447.html

[Ben Emery]

George,

Probably to your liking this will be my last correspondence with Rebane’s Ruminations (RR). Unfortunately my opinion has taken a 180-degree turn. I have gone from defending your opinions on Sierra Foothills Report and proclaiming a level of respect for you as well to being absolutely disgusted and appalled at your macro opinions on almost all issues. Others warned me about your true positions and character but I generally shape my own opinions of people through my own personal experience not the experience of others. I still hold to the idea that most likely on a day-to-day level you are a decent human being. Along with that I also believe that at the local level we have many more agreements than disagreements. The problem lies the further we get away from our shared region of the Sierra the further our opinions part.

What I find most disheartening on RR is the outright apathy towards the plight of others, especially the poor and people of color. It is not only you but also the 5 or 6 regular “conservative” participants. I have mentioned it before on RR and will do so for the last time. The things I fight for with passion are rarely going to benefit myself directly. What I am fighting for is equal opportunity and equal justice for all people where as you seem to be just fine with oppression when it isn’t aimed at your specific group. I am a civil libertarian through and through. The thought of violating the liberty and freedom of others for a perceived sense of security of oneself is 100% wrong and immoral in the worst way.

I can handle disagreement but what I will not tolerate is snobbery and bullying whether it is physical, emotional, or intellectual. I believe that your ideology actually has very valid points and positions but it seems all or nothing with those who share it. The conflation of capitalism and governance is where we part ways most, capitalism is a economic model to be used within a governance not the other way around. Your snobbery and articulate bullying style of writing just rubs me the wrong way and therefore I will pursue other avenues to express my views and opinions.

I will not respond to remarks from this point forward. What I will say as a leaving comment is your world ideology is in its final generations and the sooner it goes extinct the better the planet and its inhabitants will be for it.

I just finished a book on Thomas Paine and there was a passage from him that really reminded me of my time at Rebane’s Ruminations. The passage was originally expressed with Thomas Paine opposing the Jacobites lust for the death penalty and he actively promoting the ideals of due process for King Louis XVI he wrote in In Opinion de Thomas Payne, député du département de la Somme, concernant le jugement de Louis XVI

"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
Thomas Paine

[fish]

The thought of violating the liberty and freedom of others for a perceived sense of security of oneself is 100% wrong and immoral in the worst way.

You certainly don't mind violating others rights for other things you want.....everybody in, nobody out.... and yes, I'm sure you can go on and on.

Enjoy the college bull session...the one where you save the world, and right every wrong...... playing on an endless loop in your head!

[Bill Tozer]

Hate to see you go Mr. Ben Emery. Go out and slay those dragons. Its going to be boring here without you. Heck, you are the only one who labored endlessly to get my mind right and I appreciate you being a stand up forgiving kind of guy.

Not surprised since I sensed your frustration caused by knocking your head against a boulder was increasing. Every man has his breaking point. What doesn't break ya will make ya.

Just one last question? Was it something somebody said?

Good luck in all your endeavors, especially the sports teams. Do one of those non-pc comic routines for them someday. It might be a great ice breaker.

Later Mr. Ben and Tom Joad, Ma Joad, Pa Joad.

[Todd Juvinall]

BenE, sorry to see you go. You provide the best evidence of why liberals are so loony and need to be rounded up and fed candy. Good luck at your favorite blog and say hi to your fellow travelers for me and us. Adios!

[Walt]

I give him a week....
On that note, I have seen a new wave of anti "O" taking shape across the fruited plain. At least 14 states now have active
campaigns to demand the impeachment of the mighty "O".
Their spots of choice are overpasses.("Overpasses for Obama’s Impeachment” ) One group I read about
got run off, and one arrested for "distracting drivers, and causing a traffic jam. ( The traffic jam was already there before they hung up the signs. from what I hear)
Maybe the first recorded arrest of a Tea Party person? ( just a guess...)
I believe it's a good time to put our overpass to use.. It's been lonely and un"occupied" for too long.
What are they going to do? arrest us for not having the proper tax exempt papers?
It seems this started back East, and is now working it's way West.
I see no better place, than "Berkeley of the foothills" to help out the cause.

It sure beats making a stink about Elephant rides.
Besides. I'm tired of the saddle LIB moochers strapped to MY back. Jumbo has it easy.

[George Rebane]

BenE 245pm - Ben, there's no denying you did your best. Should you ever return, we'll leave the light on for you. Vaya con Dios.