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13 September 2013

Comments

Russ Steele

George, here some chilling stats to go along with Charles Murray’s insights to changes in the class structure:


• By 2018, the youth labor force, composed of 16- to 24-year-olds, is expected to reach over 21 million individuals.

• By 2030, although 41 million new workers will enter the work force, a staggering 76 million will enter retirement, leaving a shortage of workers that will be hard to fill.

• Nearly 6 million youth (ages 16 – 24) are not in school and do not have a job. Since 2000, the number non-engaged young adults (age 18-24) grew by 878,000, a 20 percent increase.

• 40% of employers said that the high school graduates they hire lack enough of the ―soft skills they need even for entry-level jobs.

• In 2005, 27 percent of 8th grade students scored below the basic reading level and
31 percent of 8th grade students scored below the basic math level.

• Nationwide the overall graduation rate for the class of 2005 was 70 percent, with one-third of all public high school students failing to graduate.

• Only half of the nation’s minority students graduate from high school along with their peers. For many groups – Latino, black, or Native American males –graduation rates are even lower.

• Six out of ten (63%) first-time, full-time degree-seeking college freshmen earn a B.A. within six years. Low-income and minority students are the least likely to actually graduate. Only 40% of African American and 47% of Latino students are graduating within six years.

• Eighty percent of the 30 fastest-growing occupations—including allied health, computer-related, environmental science, and social and human services—will need a highly skilled and educated labor pool to draw from to remain competitive in a global market.

• The U.S. economy is projected to add 15 million jobs by 2016 – half will require post-secondary credentials

• American business currently spends more than $60 billion each year on training, much of that on remedial reading, writing, and mathematics. High school dropouts are unable to enter the workforce with the necessary skills to meet the demands of the nation’s global economy.

• 42 percent of college instructors and 45 percent of employers say that high school graduates are not prepared for college and employment.


It is easy to see why employers are turning to machines to fill the gaps in the work force. But, what will we do with all the un-educated warm bodies that are just standing around, sucking on the economy and not contributing?

George Rebane

RussS 801pm - Good points Russ, thanks for the expansion. And here is an example of what Team Obama and the progressives have left behind during a recovery that should by now be soaring.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323893004579057063223739696.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_LEFTTopStories

stevenfrisch

Ah, one has to love the phrase "lost generation". If Hemmingway only knew it would be used by each generation to define the unlucky detritus of the coming generation.

Bill Tozer

I have pondered why so many teachers and journalists have a liberal bent. Maybe it was those long late night dorm gabfests mixed with smoking some big fat hooters with beer that produced a moment of "clarity". Talking til dawn planning Utopia and how socialism has failed only because it was not the right kind or somebody did not try hard enough or, or, or.

Maybe it is because they (our educators and journalists) see themselves as the only legitimate self appointed defenders of the little guy and life would be grand if only people behaved as they wanted them to do. Don't matter anyway. Don't matter cause they don't have to clean up the mess.

Being liberal means never have to say you're sorry.

The minimum wage issue is back in the news. Ok, should the guy who cleans horse stalls or buses tables make more money while continuing to offer low skills to an employer? Should an electrican make more than a forklift operator because of the electrician skills? Should an accountant make more than a window washer? Should a corporate lawyer specializing in international trade make more than a bus driver? Should a child care worker make as much as a software developer?

I ask these questions to point out that different folks have different skill sets which they bring to the table. The employer takes notice and pays accordingly. The skilled employee can charge whatever the market will bear, based on his/her skills and value to an employer or client.

In the short term:

http://money.msn.com/investing/whos-hiring-and-what-they-pay

Gregory

To add to Russ' dismal stats, the Grass Valley Charter had 40% of their 8th graders below Basic in science this past year. That was 8% Below Basic and a whopping 32% Far Below Basic. Totally lost. To be that bad in a school with only 1 English Language Learner in the student body takes a concerted effort.

Don't expect them at Tech Test; they will be lagging behind their peers even if they are fortunate enough to have above average teachers and curriculums in high school.

Gregory

Ah, one has to love how Frisch (1026PM) sweeps the detritus of his politics under the rug.

George Rebane

Gregory 1000am - I'm not aware that any of our left-leaning friends will ever adopt any of the obvious banners that summarize their social belief systems. In fact, as these pages have shown, they take great exception to having their beliefs gathered under long-acquainted labels where their tenets are quite at home. Daily they confirm Upton Sinclair's "The American People will take Socialism, but they won't take the label."

Stevenfrisch

So Greg, you do realize that my lost generation comment had absolutely zero political context or critique. Isn't it just like you to turn a innocuous comment into an opportunity to be a jerk.

Gregory

Steve, I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you wrote at 11:16AM. One of your constant themes is how out of touch the old right wingers are, and your 10:26PM response to Steele's 8:01PM fit right in. If you had kids you'd be taking it seriously.

My first wife and I both graduated from public high schools in California, and without taking SAT preparation classes, tested well and got into a good college ready to follow an aggressive math and science curriculum. Neither of us had parents in science or engineering; both moms homemakers, one dad a millwright, the other a middle school counselor.

That just doesn't happen that much anymore. The modern educators I ran into in Nevada County just expected the smart kids will do OK; rather than encouraging the best and brightest (ala techtest), graduating from high school able to attend a CSU (with remedial math or English to begin with) is as big a win as attending a Stanford or Cal...

I recall a CSU Chico prof who frequents the FUE sandbox showing me an end of the year paper put out by a Nevada County high school to celebrate where their graduates were headed. One was on their way to the California Institute of Technology, a bastion of science and engineering, with the highest percentage of alumni with PhD's of any undergraduate program in the country. Maybe the world.

Their high school identified it as a community college. Not a clue.

Russ Steele

QUESTION: Watching the news we see a lot of people with tattoos. We see a similar collection of tattoos on people in Nevada City and Grass Valley. My question, is will there be more tattoos in Fish Town or Belmont. What do you think the ratio would be between Belmont and Fish Town?

ANOTHER QUESTION: Are tattoos a generational signature, void of any social class distinctions? The Kansas Miss American candidate is a member of the National Guard, a hunter and has some interesting tattoos. I have seen tattoos on Harvard students, male and female, and other campuses in Boston. Are upper classes investing life times in tattoos, or is it a lower class designation?

George Rebane

re RussS 632pm - to date most tattoos have been either a solicitation or celebration of Fishtown. But since traditional cultural norms are subliming into a common pool, even in the Belmonts (due to the 'nonjudgmental' strictures imposed on all classes by our progressive educational system), are adopting them along with gangsta shorts and frayed levis, etc. I think tattoos are now the continuance of the lower class chic that the upper class has been wrapping itself in for 20 to 30 years. Murray has a very revealing and thoughtful analysis of this phenomenon in the conclusion to Coming Apart.

Bill Tozer

Here is a new item I found to be kinda on topic. If Whittier has a population that is 66% Latino, why has only one Latino been elected to the city council since 1898??

Perhaps the answer came be found in the "New Upper Class." Perhaps those with skills are more likely to register to vote. Maybe some of the 66% of Whittier residents are not eligible to vote because of citizenship or maybe that figure includes people under 18 years of age.

Seems to me if you reside in a community where you have the lion's share of the majority, then you have only yourself and "your people" to blame if you don't elect more than just one of your people to the city council in the last 115 years.

If you don't like the results, then sue. Can't be voter apathy or running lousy candidates now can it? Maybe the new upper class minority registers and votes as if their future depends on it.

http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-local-elections-20130915,0,295413.story

Douglas Keachie

Tozer and Company. I can tell you,flat out why many became teachers. Relatively long vacations during which your life was yours, to explore and do new things, to have fun, etc. The idea of working 48 to 50 weeks a year for someone else doing what they wanted, seemed horrible at the time. In fact it still does. The notion that I could offer services, or open a store, did not really occur to me, despite having done a lot of door to door selling for various fundraisers during junior and senior high.

My original intention was to go into college teaching, anthro, but my four year first wife made some remarkably bad choices, and would continue to do so over the next 30 years, and I had a daughter to care for and protect as best I could, despite her meddlesome and in hindsight remarkably regretful (they traded me for a drug addict born again "project," who finally died of his addictions back in 1999, and despite a somewhat noble heart, never contributed much, other than to convert their granddaughter to born-againism, and away from science, which for Jewish folk is not an ideal outcome.

(Both my ex and daughter have since seen some of the errors of his ways.)

Oh, why anthro? Because of all the social sciences, it seemed to have the best sense of humor about all the senseless and stupid stuff people do in the name of their various cultures, which is actually harmful to the human spirit. And why not a "hard" science" Because, despite a strong interest in science, I had lousy science teachers through high school, likewise math teachers, so I never became as proficient as is needed, and Greg correctly points out. Even with such a background, I still scored 613 in math on the SAT, which was then closee to 99% percentile.

So there you have it, teaching high school was a fall-back, when the train got derailed. I would love to have built a ski area up in Cold Canyon, behind Sugar Bowl, and had picked out a 160 scre parcel which was then selling for $32,000, was last on the market for nearly a million, before it got bought up for a park. I had this figured out by age 17, but my parents, absolutely could not see it (and could afford it, anyways, not without friends going in) They also missed at Alpine Meadows, the year of the Olympics. Lots were going for $1,000, and included the rights to buy season passes forever at $75/year, thus another missed opportunity. Wishes and fishes, you do what you can, to make money, but money is nowhere near the dominant theme of life that it seems to be for so many on the right. It is a difference in outlook. Somewhere in the middle is, I suspect, Nirvana.

Douglas Keachie

"The minimum wage issue is back in the news. Ok, should the guy who cleans horse stalls or buses tables make more money while continuing to offer low skills to an employer? Should an electrican make more than a forklift operator because of the electrician skills? Should an accountant make more than a window washer? Should a corporate lawyer specializing in international trade make more than a bus driver? Should a child care worker make as much as a software developer?"

Allowing employers to pay less than what it takes to keep their employees available for work, basically shifts the burden of keeping those employees going onto the government and private charity. Such wages thus constitute socialism for the wealthy who own the corporations, and are making up the difference via handout of the government money collected from the slightly better off employees, who can support themselves. Walmart is the worst of all, having actually published a handbook telling their employees how to go apply for each program they might be entitled to, because Walmart did not and still does not pay a living wage.

If you think Walmart is a good example of Capitalism, then a successful burglar who steals all you have and gets away scot free is likewise talented. Strange company for you, no?

Gregory

"Because, despite a strong interest in science, I had lousy science teachers through high school, likewise math teachers, so I never became as proficient as is needed, and Greg correctly points out. Even with such a background, I still scored 613 in math on the SAT, which was then closee to 99% percentile."

Blaming incompetent teachers? Tsk, tsk.

A 610 is not even close to the 99th percentile Keach. Never was. Currently, according to the College Board for a guy to be in the 99th percentile they'd have to score 190 points higher, a perfect 800, on the SAT-M. A 610 is about a 72% for guys, 82% for women. It wasn't much different 50 years ago.

Douglas Keachie

You do remember Greg, how I unearth that old student pilot's piece of paper? Give me a bit of time, I'll do the same for this one. Things were different back in 1962.

Gregory

Keach, your delusions about your SAT-M and basic economics are on par with each other.

Gregory

No, they weren't much different, Keach. There was a renormalization circa '98 but an old 610-M is now equivalent to a...

610.

http://www.greenes.com/html/convert.htm

George Rebane

For the general reader, I'd like to point out a clear example of how a liberal mind views the world and thinks. Please read the second paragraph in DougK's 943am.

Bill Tozer

Mr. Keachie. There are numerous educators that have their hearts in the right place, no doubt about it. I was careful to speak in general terms about journalists and educators in general, not specifically.

Being a private sector blue collar type, I judge things by results. And I am JUDGED under the microscope by results. Bottom line stuff, no "ifs or "becauses" allowed. I may not be responsible for things beyond my control, but I am held accountable. Results are the bread and butter of providing for myself and my loved ones. Bad results and you will see me go under rather quickly. Very quickly.

Loved you writing about missed opportunities. Oh, how I could count them all. I once wanted to be a poetry writer and a cross country coach. And work in a fish hatchery in some wooded place in the mountains. The twists and turns...what a long strange journey it has been. BTW, back in the day, The UCLA Bruin (never went to UCLA) picked up one of my poems and published it! Unfortunately, they printed the wrong last name.. Called me William Labelle or something like that. At least I can say I have been published, ROFLMO.

When discussing the minimum wage, why do people always go straight to Wal-Mart? Like 5% of folks in the restaurant industry work for minimum wage. Once took a night job (second job to get through the winter) for our local Express Mart chain. 5 bucks/hour and it was above minimum wage. Learned I had too much of a temper/low tolerance for bull pucky to deal with the public for 8 hours straight. Worked my butt off and did a lousy job. Well, at least it helped pay for the Gold Country Stage, cig money and shoes for the girl's little feet, but not rent or car insurance.

Life is expensive, now matter how frugal one becomes. And I refuse to do the roommate thing as I get older. That is why minimum wage is associated with entry level positions. Entry level. Think Bill Gates did his stint at Mickey D's as a youngin. I once pulled into a town a took a job as a waiter at the counter in a coffee shop. Planed to grab some tips and leave after 2-3 days. Just a weekend thing to get some cash. Made more than the girls serving the tables which pissed them off. Needless to say, I met a pretty young lady, quit the job, got involved making commercials and working on low budget movies then tv shows and that weekend turned into 9 years. Keep on truckin' and keep that head above water. I left town the same way I came in. Broke and alone. Big Time Charlie got the blues.

Would I have done better with skills? You bet. Would I have done things differently knowing what I know now? No. Why? Because that kid who dropped out of college and wanted to travel the world with his thumb up on the side of the road did the "do your own thing". My mindset was different so I did exactly what that mindset did.

All this long in the tooth stuff does not detract from Dr. Rebane's topic The New Upper Class. Just as relevant today as when I was singing the Stone's "Street Fighting Man"

Gregory

George, Keachie isn't representative of liberals. He's just one delusional guy from Planet Frisco who believes what he wants to believe unencumbered by rationality.

He is his own straw man.

We need a little Star Trek interlude...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgHxFNFWlZc

Bill Tozer

Re: the Lost Generation update:

New survey reveals for the first time the younger generation puts getting out of debt as the top goal in life, knocking home ownership of its historical #1 wish list. Sign of the times?

George Rebane

Gregory 1114am - I do hope that you are right, but my own experience counsels otherwise based on public opinion research, published papers, and personal anecdotal evidence (much of it presented on RR). As a case in point we have the writings of Mr Ben Emery, a former RR commenter who left an extensive record of socialist thought on these pages.

But I do agree that 'liberal' encompasses a large range of collectivist ideology which individuals embrace selectively. (Note that I and most people do not require that an individual evinces every jot and tittle of, say, liberal, progressive, socialist, communist, ... beliefs in order to be usefully labeled as such.)

BillT 1114am - Sign of the times indeed. But we don't know which future such signs point to since there are many ways of getting out of debt. The bookends of such methods are 1) to grow the economy through massive tax and regulatory changes, and 2) haul the creditors to the guillotines in tumbrels. The schools are heavily tilted toward teaching the latter solution.

Gregory

Tozer, college students today are not much different then indentured servants. Once they buy into a "post-secondary education" that includes tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars of student loan debt that isn't dischargeable in bankruptcy no matter how much lower their actual earnings are from what their financial aid salesperson (called a counselor at most colleges and trade schools) claimed they'd be earning after graduation, which all too few manage to do.

Modern college education is a transfer of future earnings of students to a left-liberal educational cadre with the Federal government providing the bridge loans, the only loans made in the country that bankruptcy judges can't discharge. WalMart doesn't hold a candle to Uncle Sam.

Joe Koyote

"Modern college education is a transfer of future earnings of students to a left-liberal educational cadre with the Federal government providing the bridge loans, the only loans made in the country that bankruptcy judges can't discharge"

Is the government in the loan business? I thought the gov'ts role is as guarantor to the commercial banks that actually provide the loans so that no matter what happens to the student, the banks get their money back plus interest. It would seem that the bankruptcy issue benefits the lenders more than the schools, the schools get the money up front directly from the banks. And let's also not forget the private for profit schools like University of Phoenix, DeVries, etc. which obtain over 75% of their income from student loans. They seem to be more business oriented than very left-liberal.

Douglas Keachie

Why Walmart? "With close to 2.2 million employees worldwide, Walmart has faced a torrent of lawsuits and issues with regards to its workforce. These issues involve low wages, poor working conditions, inadequate health care, as well as issues involving the company's strong anti-union policies. Critics point to Walmart's high turnover rate as evidence of an unhappy workforce, although other factors may be involved. Approximately 70% of its employees leave within the first year.[177] Despite the turnover rate the company still is able to affect unemployment rates. This was found in a study by Oklahoma State University which states, "Walmart is found to have substantially lowered the relative unemployment rates of blacks in those counties where it is present, but to have had only a limited impact on relative incomes after the influences of other socio-economic variables were taken into account."[178]

Wal-Mart is the largest employer in the United States, employing almost five times as many people as IBM, the second largest employer in the U.S.[179]" ~wikipeedia~

As for the StarTrek clip, grass yes, LDS, no, although my first girlfriend in elementary school is LDS, and we still have fun conversations, via Facebook.

How come, in this face of all the information about automation and robotics posted here from time to time, you are not taking those into account for our coming lowered expectations society. Blaming it on the hapless children born into these times seems rather like that guy who got 3.5 million in farm subsidies, and then started taunting the foodstamp folks for being lazy. He being some Tea Party congressman, if I recall correctly.

How are things cooking down at Jones Bar this afternoon"

Douglas Keachie

George, I take it you think the 2nd paragraph in my 9:43 am is false? Please explain why.

Bill Tozer

Mr. Keachie, Wal-Mart is an excellent example of a low wage, low skill entry level position in today's workforce. I have no reason to doubt the turnover rate you cited. Seems too low at first glance, lol. Count me as a believer as well concerning your quote "have had only a limited impact on relative incomes after the influences of other socio-economic variables were taken into account." Total no-brainer.

Me thinks some (perhaps you are included, perhaps not)....some believe they should be able to make a living wage at Wal-Mart. You can move up nicely at Wal-Mart if you stick around and show initiative, tackle challenges, and be suited for the company business philosophy/model. But to get hired tomorrow and expect to make a living wage?? High turnover cause that is what it is. Low pay. Same with the fast food industry, although I would argue the fast food joints have their employees move with a purpose. Like ants on hot pavement. And they get raises sooner, but not enough to be the sole bread winner in any household.

Mr. Keachie, please note I wrote "low pay, low skilled job." Entry level for the skilled is the same way in that you start off with lower pay until you pay your dues and prove you are a good fit. Take any fresh faced architectural, chemist, accounting student right out of college and the initial job offers at major firms will be surprising lower in pay than most believe. Gotta pay your dues.

Don't expect low skilled jobs to provide a living wage for the sole bread winner of a household.

There was a line in the movie Saturday Night Fever (or whatever it was called) featuring a young John Travolta doing his first movies after graduating from Mr. Carter's classroom. Its a line I will never forget and worth mentioning.

The scene was John Travolta was working in a paint store and having a conversation with the owner, his boss. The boss said something and John T replied "F the future." His boss shot back "F the future and the future will F you." Wanna stay at Wal-Mart or clean the laundry mat 7 days a week? Go ahead.

We are talking skills here, nothing more, nothing less.

stevenfrisch

I am constantly amazed at libertarian minded people who forget that all wealth creation is based on four factors: labor, capital, natural resources and innovation. Without fair labor practices, the rule of law to protect capital, stewardship of natural resources, and education to fuel innovation we slip into a new dark age. That means we have a responsibility to foster all four factors simultaneously.

Russ Steele

We hear a lot of whining about WalMart, but American business have a lot to learn about efficiency and how to reduce cost to the consumer.

Despite its size, Walmart is a paragon of corporate efficiency. It has compiled the largest sales data-set of any American retailer and analyzes this data using the second largest supercomputer in the world (trailing only the Pentagon). Aided by this number-crunching, Walmart excels at knowing what its consumers want. Walmart’s purchasing decisions thus reflect American preferences. In short, Walmart is a driving force in the American economy leading to smarter, more streamlined production, and (as always) lower prices for consumers.

The benefits of Walmart’s efficiency are not only economic, as illustrated by the company’s response to Hurricane Katrina. Walmart’s response to the hurricane was lauded even by its critics: it donated more than $20 million worth of merchandise, including food for 100,000 meals, and it promised jobs for all of its displaced workers. But what I wish to extol is not Walmart’s largesse, which bore immediate public relations benefits, but rather the utility of their efficient distribution system. The first supply truck to arrive at the Superdome after the hurricane came from Walmart, not from FEMA. The administrative particulars of Walmart’s response to the hurricane, detailed in a study by Steven Horwitz, are both fascinating and inspiring. Walmart’s existing distribution chain was – and is – able to deliver needed goods faster and more efficiently than a government agency, which (besides being inept) had no existing infrastructure to respond to the disaster. The Coast Guard, another organization praised for its post-Katrina efforts, was great for rescuing people from flooded houses, but it was incapable of providing them with sufficient supplies afterwards. Without the aid of Walmart, the aftermath of the hurricane would have been even more catastrophic.

During the Oklahoma tornado, WalMart open it stores 24./7 and helped local stores recover. Wal-Mart pledged $1 million in cash and in-kind donations to help ensure the essential needs of residents are being met, directing truckloads of water, food and other basic items to the area to help the community during this difficult time as they work in conjunction with the Salvation Army, Red Cross and other agencies to monitor further ways to help. Including bring in replacements from surrounding states for the workers in WalMart damaged stores, so they could be with their families.

That said, WalMart is the worlds largest consignment store, it does not accept ownership of the product until it reaches the point of sale. But, once that sale is made the supplier knows almost instantly what products are going out the door and what has to be supplied the next day. Using its “Big Data” processing resources, WalMart knows what customer are going to buy for hurricane preparedness and makes sure that every store in the impacted region has extra supplies, including Pop-Tarts.

By mining it’s own data WalMart discovered that people buy batteries and Pop-Tarts when a hurricane is forecast. The put those Pop-Tarts up front with the batteries and water bottles where the customers can find them. When big snow storms are forecast it is shovels and generators that are in high demand. WalMart makes sure there is an extra supply on hand. WalMart has developed the skill to determine what a customer is going to need, some time before the customer knows they need the product.

fish

I am constantly amazed at libertarian minded people who forget that all wealth creation is based on four factors: labor, capital, natural resources and innovation. Without fair labor practices, the rule of law to protect capital, stewardship of natural resources, and education to fuel innovation we slip into a new dark age. That means we have a responsibility to foster all four factors simultaneously.

Excellent points Steve...and why we lost so badly to the eastern bloc nations.

George Rebane

DougK 127pm - "False"? not at all. You expressed a worldview in your 943am that involved specific labels and meanings applied to realities, e.g. like a corporation to compete, it must seek to lower its cost of providing goods/services to its customers. Labor is a cost that comes attached to the skill level and availability of such labor as Mr Tozer explained in his 307pm.

As a socialist, you are a great fan of central planning, which in the case of labor costs assigns the burden of paying a market unsupported 'living wage' for the employer to bear, regardless of the skill sets he needs and the number of applicants that are competing for the job(s) he has available. As a socialist, you have a keen sense of 'social justice', and can therefore dictate to us and employers everywhere what their pay scales should be.

To you and yours there is nothing 'false' in those beliefs since they provide you with a harmonious worldview. To me and mine such views are insane in that they secure the basis for sustained mediocrity at best, and large scale misery at worst. (Charles Murray goes into great detail with lots of data and graphs on how the new Fishtown came to be. And no doubt, you approved everyone one of those government programs.)

Account Deleted

Thank you, Doug for your comment at 9:26
"but money is nowhere near the dominant theme of life that it seems to be for so many on the right. It is a difference in outlook."
We are getting to the crux of the biscuit as Frank would say.
Totally wrong-o, Doug. We conservatives are more educated and realistic about moolah. I rarely think about money at all. I just made sure that when I plan my actions, and make life style choices, they are realistic and based on what I can afford. My wife and I planned our life to be based on buying what we could afford without going into debt. And we do not have the attitude that we are free to do whatever we want and expect someone else to pick up the tab. Liberals and the left are actually obsessed with money. It's always about other folk's money.

Steven F at 3:07 has on this day out-done Douglas for complete lack of thought being invested in a comment.
"I am constantly amazed at libertarian minded people who forget that all wealth creation is based on four factors: labor, capital, natural resources and innovation. Without fair labor practices, the rule of law to protect capital, stewardship of natural resources, and education to fuel innovation we slip into a new dark age. That means we have a responsibility to foster all four factors simultaneously."

Steve - you have it totally bass-ackwards. Libertarians are among the most productive members of society. It's the left that have it wrong. They think that wealth creation is printing money and handing it out to certain folk. Libertarians are the best educated of society. They foster that ideal of constant learning as a way of life. It's the takers of society that don't care about education. Your idea of 'fair' labor practices is that most folk are idiots and need mommy to figure out what is best for them. Libertarians believe in 'fair' labor practice. Fair is what I believe it is for me and you can figger out what is fair for you. If an adult (18+) is not able to negotiate their own terms, the problem is lack of education of the adult and they need more training. They will, of course, never get that in govt schools because most of the teachers in govt schools can't even negotiate for themselves. So much for 7 years of so-called higher education.

Gregory

"I thought the gov'ts role is as guarantor to the commercial banks that actually provide the loans so that no matter what happens to the student, the banks get their money back plus interest."

JK (12:57PM) you thought wrong, at least for the new millenium. Yes, in the old model, for a 10,000 guaranteed student loan a bank would borrow 10K from the Federal Reserve and send the money to the college after the student signs the loan documents, making a few percent off the top to service the loan which was guaranteed by the Federal Government. However, now something like 75% of student loans (and 100% of the federally guaranteed loans) are from the Federal Direct Student Loan program, and the college/trade school gets a check directly from the US Treasury and the student has to pay the government back. No banks are involved.

"Following the passage of the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010, the Federal Direct Loan Program is the sole government-backed loan program in the United States." -wiki

Gregory

The problem with WalMart vs the progressives isn't that they don't follow the law, it's that they aren't unionized.

It isn't my favorite store but then my demographic isn't their favorite customer. No, they don't pay low level employees well, so if you have the skills to work elsewhere and need more income than they would provide, don't work there. Or McDonalds, Subway or be a clerk at any number of retail businesses. If all you need is a job to complement a spouse's job with basic benefits?

WalMart or McDonalds doesn't owe anyone who walks in the door a 40 hour a week job with benefits that one working adult can raise 3 kids on, cover car payments and rent. If you want a retail job and decent pay, apply to Costco but openings are few because they made the decision to pay more and enjoy less employee turnover. Otherwise, you might want to learn to drive a truck or operate other heavy machinery if you want a blue collar job that doesn't involve phrases like "Welcome to WalMart" or "Would you like fries with that?".

Customers go to WalMart because of low prices. If they wouldn't miss the 50% surcharge it takes to shop at a Whole Foods or a real yuppie outlet like our own BriarPatch (referred to as the commie coop at our home, as the first time I walked into the Joerschke Drive store there were several magazines on their rack with a smiling uncle Karl Marx on the covers), they would. I expect most WalMart shoppers are the Gross Me Outlet people and you meet lots of fine people at the Gross Me Outlet in Burger Basin.

stevenfrisch

Posted by: Scott Obermuller | 15 September 2013 at 07:07 PM

Even libertarians agree on what creates wealth in an economy Scott. My definition of wealth creation would work for Smith, Galbraith, Hayek and Friedman....

Here is the difference, those of you who think you know economics would screw workers and rape the environment with no moral qualms as long as it increased profit..that is not an economy..it is a recipe for collapse.

By the way libertarians are not productive if the way they aggregate their wealth or hire people is by externalizing costs to other members of society. Then they are just leeches.

Douglas Keachie

"By the way libertarians are not productive if the way they aggregate their wealth or hire people is by externalizing costs to other members of society. Then they are just leeches. "

is a shorter version of "Allowing employers to pay less than what it takes to keep their employees available for work, basically shifts the burden of keeping those employees going onto the government and private charity. Such wages thus constitute socialism for the wealthy who own the corporations, and are making up the difference via handout of the government money collected from the slightly better off employees, who can support themselves. Walmart is the worst of all, having actually published a handbook telling their employees how to go apply for each program they might be entitled to, because Walmart did not and still does not pay a living wage."

None of the Right, here, are coming up with any answers for what do you do with those for whom there are no longer enough jobs, period. There are too many workers for too few jobs, and it is only going to get worse, and the Right does not give a damn, "Not my problem."


Gregory

"Here is the difference, those of you who think you know economics would screw workers and rape the environment"

Nope. Screwing workers and raping the environment is already very difficult to get away with, and their insurers and their stockholders punish them faster than you can.

It's easy, guys. If you don't like WalMart, don't spend your money there.

Gregory

Keach (10:06), your fish has again lost its bicycle.

Bill Tozer

Blame employers, eh? Well, look at the rules of the game and adjust accordingly.

Noticed the big labor unions don't particularly like the rules of the game concerning Obamacare. Something about having their members getting a tax break for buying health insurance (pre-tax) through the employers while not allowing their members to receive subsidies on the exchanges. Something about double tax breaks for the same thing is against some law and the unions are none too happy. If folks can get insurance on the exchanges, who needs the unions to negotiate health insurance? Let's not forget that Cadillac tax was delayed only to 2016, which means they will pay 40% more for possibly less.

Nasty leeches trying to throw union members upon the burden of other members of society, shame, shame. Opps, that is the unions acting like leeches. Plus the mean ole government acting so heartless for not allowing union members with health insurance escape to the exchanges. How low can Washington go. Shame, shame.

Don't know if libertarians are money grubbing leeches in practice. Do know libs are obsessed with the balance in other people's bank accounts. Keeps them awake at night trying to get their money grubbing hands on all that money sitting around in people's accounts doing nothing and not helping create social justice. If only there was a law, then.....

I do know that contentment in a nutshell it is not a matter of having what you want, but wanting what you have. Has little to do with money. That makes you sleep well at night.

fish

is a shorter version of "Allowing employers to pay less than what it takes to keep their employees available for work, basically shifts the burden of keeping those employees going onto the government and private charity. Such wages thus constitute socialism for the wealthy who own the corporations, and are making up the difference via handout of the government money collected from the slightly better off employees, who can support themselves. Walmart is the worst of all, having actually published a handbook telling their employees how to go apply for each program they might be entitled to, because Walmart did not and still does not pay a living wage."

Peach, as a big believer in the power and grandeur of the state, the above statement shouldn't trouble you at all......there exists a government "solution" to this societal problem. Why aren't you celebrating this? This is similar to what Greg mentioned above.....the left whines, We can't go to college because the evul corporayshuns charge us too much for loans!"...the government solution....take over the student loan market! As a lefty Peach, what's not to like?


None of the Right, here, are coming up with any answers for what do you do with those for whom there are no longer enough jobs, period. There are too many workers for too few jobs, and it is only going to get worse, and the Right does not give a damn, "Not my problem."

Well you can't really have it both ways Doug. If you make the claim that "the right doesn't care about the little guy".... why persist in whining that "the right doesn't care about the little guy"? You have an avowed leftist president heading the executive, and a democratic senate (you had all three branches during this administrations first two years....but hey there were mid terms coming up so I guess that's why you didn't fix everything).

So what is your Blue Ribbon Ten Point plan for resolving all the economic and social inequities in the United States? Emery had one....what about Peachie?

George Rebane

fish 553am - DougK has been making a false assertion for years that no one on the right cares nor has any ideas about alleviating systemic unemployment. Unfortunately it is a tried and true leftwing tactic that has also been used by about every leftwinger frequenting these comment streams.
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2009/05/republicans-need-a-new-strategy.html

Bill Tozer

Mr. Keachie: Wal-Mart is doing the right thing by helping its employees figure out how to get additional help for their families via directing/informing them about where and how to apply for food stamps and understanding their options for the exchanges. Very similar what our military does for our privates who have 3 kids and a pregnant wife and in need of food stamps. Its the caring thing to do. IBM is holding workshops for its retirees and spouses to help them navigate their options on the exchanges.


Solutions for more jobs? My, we have pounded this one into dust month after month, year after year. But in case you missed it, try slashing taxes and cut the regulatory burden on businesses, great and small. Plus, an education system that produces a workforce that is equipped, ready, and capable of applying the knowledge/skills they learned in kindergarten to today's marketplace.

To paraphrase The Emergency Fiscal Dude that was appointed to take over Detroit's checkbook: "What Detroit needs to turn things around is a skilled workforce." Now there a dude that can see the forest from the trees.

The Left has told us that green jobs will save the day. Stats can be deceiving. Yes, green jobs are growing at a rapid pace. Like 60-100% growth rate. But if that means 1.5% of the workforce doing the green thing is now 2.6-3%, we are counting pennies not dollars here. Mighty Mouse is taking his sweet time to come save the day. Fracking is creating a lot of jobs, but suddenly cheap plentiful natural gas is no longer considered a good thing. To the Left, anything cheap and plentiful is to be rejected.

Solutions for jobs? Well my dear noble friend and sparing partner Mr. Keachie: You can lead a horse to water, but you can't....

Douglas Keachie

Still not addressing the fact that there are fewer jobs, and if jobs can be shipped overseas, they will be, even if new money is available . Cutting taxes will simply increase the take of the rich and enable them to gather all the marbles just that much faster. Too many children and too little money are a self inflicted wound, often called welfare queenism, when it occurs in civilian life. Why are you suddenly sympathetic if it occurs in the military? They could of course pay more money for the military, if they wanted to enable a sense of self-sufficiency in their favored breeders. At a point where one is retired, and there are government programs created with the intention of helping the elderly, who often are incapacitated to the point where they can't work ever again, that is an appropriate use of cash.

For a private corporation to tap into programs to keep their employees afloat, while their shareholders rake in the profits which should have been distributed among the employees such that they are self sufficient, is robbery of the public till for the benefit of the shareholders. Thieves, one and all, and condoners of thievery, all who support such schemes.

Were I still teaching (turns out doing a wide range of odd jobs pays far better than substitute teaching, and given the lack of respect for teacher in general, foisted by you know who, among others) I would make a point of teaching a basic fact of life in this country, the rich have made a prime goal of gathering every single dollar they can from the public, and could care less about the common man, and the state of the country, as can easily be demonstrated by the last 30 years, and the unheard of concentration of wealth at the top, and all the ways they have of selling folks on way to give up what cash they do have.

Of course, all the taxes on the common man to pay for Walmart's welfare harvesting scheme, means the average dude has even less money to begin with. Going out the graduation door with these facts firmly in mind, may have some survival value.

As for what I would do, I've outlined it many times before, a basic system of free shelter for single individuals, to give them a place from which to build a nut. Safe housing and a place from which to stay electronically connected, at a minimal level, are needed to give everyone something of a fair shake at not becoming homeless, and at improving themselves. "A Room of Her Own" and a "Well-Lighted Place," combined, with "Well-Connected" added in.

http://farstars.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-hive-for-people-down-on-their.html

Douglas Keachie

"Nope. Screwing workers and raping the environment is already very difficult to get away with, and their insurers and their stockholders punish them faster than you can."

Right here in this thread we see that some members are still suppoorting fracking, despite what OK and a couple of other states have had to say about earthquakes and fracking, and of course there is that wonderful town in Texas which ran out of water, while merrily fracking away.

http://cleantechnica.com/2013/09/13/fracking-update-these-are-the-texas-towns-running-out-of-water/

Bill Tozer

We have systematic unemployment now. The wealth gasp grows wider every year. Duh. New homes are more expensive to built in our Golden State due to sprinkler regulations and energy efficient regulations. Not saying having a fire resistant home or an energy efficient pad is a bad thing, just the realities.


So, how do we go from here to there? Here is the law: Either Wal-Mart provides employees with health insurance or pays a fine. That is what happens when you pass a bill in a mad rush so you can find out what is it.

Obamacare is for folks who do not have health insurance. Silly me, that is what I thought all the fuss was about. Just for those folks who do not have health insurance. Thank goodness Obamacare expands Medicaid to poor young people, not just those poor disabled folks waiting to get on permanent disability. And thank your lucky stars that Obamacare will pay 100% of the states' cost to expand Medicaid....for 3 years. After that, who knows what will happen when the States run out of greenies. I know. Raise taxes on the middle class and the lower middle class and hunt down them rich folks and seize their assets. Rich folks like you and me who own a abode with too much property. Our acreage should be seized and given to some land trust that will develop it for the homeless. Gotta care about the homeless, the unemployed, the downtrodden, now must-int we?

Living on the altruistic plane is the highest calling in life. Not for the faint of heart. Wouldn't mind seeing a drop in property taxes after my acreage is cut by 90%. Might even get the dirt rocky road paved with street lights! Opps, there I go again only thinking of myself. I am such a worm.

To the down and out, we are the Big Time Charlies.

Mr. Keachie, the way I see it is you and I come from basically the same background, but maybe your family had more money than mine...no matter, basically the same background. Add Dr. Rebane and Mr. Steele to the mix and even Mr. Junivall. We all had the same starting point in life, basically.

We all made decisions that directly resulted in actions, be they good, bad or indifferent. But, we arrived at different places and stations in life, not even on the same timetable. The sum total of my current status (good, bad or ugly)is a direct result of every decision I have made. No one to blame except myself.

That is how I see. Complaining that someone is shot in the ass with diamonds is really just self pity, IMHO. Hey, some are a lot better looking than me and have a much more attractive personality, but that is ok. Most are healthier than I.
You lose me when you say "Give them this, give them that." Give them? Or is it gimme, gimme, gimme? It was one our local Congresspersons who said on the House floor "I don't give people jobs. I hire men." An out of state friend sent me a copy of his speech buzzing around the net, but I digress per usual.

My problem Mr. Keachie has always been the man in the mirror, not the other guy.


fish

As for what I would do, I've outlined it many times before, a basic system of free shelter for single individuals, to give them a place from which to build a nut. Safe housing and a place from which to stay electronically connected, at a minimal level, are needed to give everyone something of a fair shake at not becoming homeless, and at improving themselves. "A Room of Her Own" and a "Well-Lighted Place," combined, with "Well-Connected" added in.

Some sort of camp then eh Peach? It should probably have walls....err...and some sort of security....you know to deal with the riff raff.

I note from the other blog post you already refer to them as "cells".....the lefty mask slip.....(I swear it's like a "tell" in poker). Well you're almost there Peach....lets continue shall we?

Further:

You enter one at a time, get "celled" for the night, and can use the common potty when your door opens and it is your turn. Pathway from potty is an instant shower/then blow dryer, whether you like it or not, regardless of garments, which should have been tossed already. You get a new set each day, and a food debit card, that anaylses your diet and only allows stuff in your cart that the state says you need. You get a 2 foot cube to store your shopping cart contents, and a cart that is yours, and is designed with safety in mind. Each hive has buyback spots for
recyclables.

Vat? No delouzing statzion.......Herr Keachie your camp vill spread zee dizeases! To zee Russian Front with you zen!

Bill Tozer

Recyclables? Like beer and evil corn syrupy soda pop cans? Just kidding. Actually Mr. Keachie, it is move in the right direction. Like the theme song from The Jeffersons "Moving on up to the Eastside, going to get me a piece of the pie."

I do find the whole concept of putting folks in 4x4 cubicles a bit on the degrading side. All humans deserve some dignity. Kinda reminiscent of when Frisco's homeless advocates proposed putting people in those Waste Management plastic trash bins. Hey, a home on wheels! Come over buddy, I am the 17th trash can on the right. But a place to relieve oneself with a real toilet and a warm shower is a good start.

People like me would tell the cubicle folks to f off and then go sleep outside under a parked car in increment weather. One must remember that all humans have egos and pride and showing them a laundry list (pun intended)of rules would not be a safe place for me. "You ain't the boss of me."

I found a broken down car quite comfortable to live in back in the day. No way would I go (even with the infant twin girls) to some shelter. I would if one got sick, but as long as we were breathing we had a rusty roof over our heads, f off. Did get crowded, but no aide necessary, thank you very much.

I meet homeless all the time that would rather die than go to HH. Never been there myself or know much about it, except the fiercely independent ones (like I was once)tell me they don't go to shelters, period. Known some that refuse to fill out the paperwork to even apply for aid, just like me. So I can relate and you would have never seen me at a cubicle or trash can sleeping under house rules. To each his own. As long as I can walk and pick up a rake and knock on people's doors seeking odd jobs I would never ever consider asking for food stamps or other entitlements. "Entitlements" come with strings. I like to give, and give with no strings attached. For fun and for free.

Once did apply for child daycare financial help at a place in GV. Sierra Services for child care help or whatever it was called. I filled out the paperwork and left, leaving the lady a phone number of an acquaintance. That acquaintance I paid 1/2 pound of coffee per month to take down any messages I got, which was about 2 a month. Anyways, the child day care people called and I went back. They told me I was put directly on the top of the list and they were all excited to help. But, I just could not take the assistance. Something inside just would not allow me to go there. I promised the lady that I would come back if I changed my mind and I promised I would hit up the food bank if I could not feed the girls. I never did.

Good idea Keachie. At least it is a solution for someone who has no idea how to survive on their own. Or someone with the entitlement mentality. I give all credit to my ex-wife, the Cherokee. She also raised two girls by herself without aid, through thick and thin before we met. She said that quote I always remember: "If you take the white man's money, you sell them your soul."

I will sell my soul when I am too old to walk or work and then draw my first SS check. My, that will be quite the evolution for me. Until then, you go sleep in a hive. Thanks goodness somebody will "allow " you 2x2 feet to store your earthly possessions. No thanks.

Douglas Keachie

Yes, cells, design competition, as cheap as possible to mainufacture and maintain, yet durable and sound deadened, as modular as possible, and yet movable, as the population may find work elsewhere. Still, there needs to be at least 6'2" inches of head room, for at least a 6'x 7' portion, which contains punch and kick proof communications wall (set off the sensors in it, and you are out in the cold for at least a week) Bed size would be twin, extra long. It is not intended to be a permanent residence, but it could be. Mattress is close celled foam, for easy cleaning. Sanitizing and cleaning of units would be automated, done daily. It won't win prizes in Sunset, but it does keep people out of the cold and weather, and therefore keeps them out of ER, there are savings right there. Sanitation is accomplished by daily cleaning. Lockers for personal stuff would be separate, those lockers only cleaned when person leaves the area.

All of us are citizens raised primarily in California, but certainly within the USA, so yes, compared to the rest of the world, we all got effectively relatively equal starts. My parents were the first generation to make above cleaning/sewing woman's wages on my dad's side, and second on my mom's. I got to ski because my dad loved to drive, built his own car at 20 (Cal Tech BS, BTW) and he liked hitting the clubs in Reno, but never lost or gained much, loved the penny slots.

Russ Steele

Lower Class is Growing

Amid slow economic recovery, more Americans identify as 'lower class' A small but surging share
of Americans consider themselves 'lower class,' a surprise to some researchers and activists
despite the bruising economy.

http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-lower-class-20130916,0,5616335.story

Bill Tozer

Good post Mr. Steele. How about us that are considered tasteless by our peers? If I did not have low class, I would have no class at all.

Actually, the economy is driven on perception. Recall all those surveys 2-3 years ago that people answered although they were doing fine, but they thought the economy was in the tank. Like if a guy down the street loses his home to foreclosure, then it seems the economy is still hurting big time.

Love how the LA Times goes straight to the 26 year olds making 14k a year. You would think that was the norm, not the exception reading The LA Times year after year. Still, the post makes a very valid point. People see themselves down in the dumps and aren't stupid. They are down on the lower tier. Probably all their friends are as well. Birds of a feather and all that stuff. Working class used to mean blue collar types punching the time clock at the ole factory. Nowadays working class no longer means middle class or even working.

An excellent post concerning the importance of the Rise of the New Upper Class....or rise of the skilled class. The Great Divide: skilled class and non skilled class. As plain as the nose on one's face.

Douglas Keachie

Still not getting it, are you? Is there anyone here younger than 45? I think not. We've all made money with our various skill sets, some a little, and some a lot, and for the most part, we are all close to coasting smugly home, unless there is a sudden and total collapse of the general economy.

Do you see the same paths you followed still available to your children and grandchildren, and their friends, and especially their not quite at the top of the scale friends? I don't see it at all.

The cost of college in relationship to minimum wage is way out of whack. Berkeley cost $160 a year in 1964, and minimum wage was $1.25/hour. Compare that to $8/hr and $12,500 per year, and look at the difference in interest rates. The number of jobs may actually increase, but now the competition is planet wide for them. We've mislead our youth, and miss invested our tax dollars, at the behest of the corporations who manipulate the government via their lobbyists, for their own benefit, and not the greater good for the country.

Were you 18 again, just how likely do you think make the grade, against the new planet-wide meritocracy? Would Greg's slot at Harvey Mudd have gone to some kid from a rural village in India, who was just a wee bit smarter, and jump started himself via the net, and then po-goed right into Greg's slot? What would Goodknight do, go into acting?

Douglas Keachie

7,000 applicants for 135 jobs, at a call center, that is being set up to explain Obamacare, one of several in the state.

Bill Tozer

What would us old folks have done in today's environment??

Many of our friends here would have made it just fine in the long run. Those who are above the cut and not crybabies seem to prosper no matter what they endeavor to do. Sometimes you succeed, sometimes you fail (and we all fail in various times in our lives) but at the end of the day, they will be standing tall on the sunny side of the street.

No different that those who lived through the Depression, and they had no unemployment insurance. Sure, we are in a new global economy. We have to compete. A winner never quits, a quitter never wins. I have 5 nieces and nephews that were home schooled, 4 entered community college at 16 and entered Cal at 18 and graduated after just 2 years. My sis and her husband are not rich folk by any stretch of the imagination. They told me the most expensive thing about paying for Berkley was the 1,500/clams per month they had to pay to rent a one bedroom apt near the campus and put 2 kids in each. Think both my sister and her husband barely squeaked through high school and neither ever attended college beyond a couple of classes at some community college. Scholarships paid for most of the tuition. The last 2 graduated in last past summer.

One is a geologist working out in Texas, another getting her masters in psychology paid for by Teach America in Baltimore, another is already on her physicist doctorate (and working doing research for Cornell and partners on some atomic super collider) and the 4th is a bio chemist and has some 6 year contract doing stuff for the University of Virginia (which will pay for her doctorate). Yeah, Keach, cannot be done in 2013. Yeah right.

The 5th kid has a pretty bad learning disability but fought hard with all her might and went to Channel Islands (the new state university) and just got her nursing certificate despite being not able to read until 2-3 years ago. She taught herself little tricks and kept it all to herself all these years. That is tackling challenges and overcoming obstacles.

Tell me again, Mr. Keach, that it can't be done.

Guess I just don't get it. You are right. Its impossible. We all might as well just throw out hands up in the air and not even try.

Douglas Keachie

It can be done, but not everyone will make it through, and in far greater numbers than ever before in history, many talented and well educated kids will not find work that pays either emotionally or financially. One anecdotal family does not tell the whole story of the 21st century job market.

Gregory

Sorry, Keach, nice try at a slime job.

While UC Berkeley has gotten *far* more selective since you got in,
(Test Scores -- 25th / 75th Percentile
SAT Critical Reading: 600 / 720
SAT Math: 650 / 770)

... that 610 Math of your drops off the CAL scale now...

Mudd is about the same as it was,
(SAT Math: 740 / 800)

as is Cal Tech
(SAT Math: 760 / 800)

and MIT
(SAT Math: 740 / 800)

fish


HEADLINE: World to End in Fiery Solar Explosion.....women and minorities hit hardest

Bill Tozer

One anecdotal family does not tell the whole story.

My, Keachie, that is exactly what the naysayer libs told Bill Clinton when he paraded a rather large black woman out with him and she told her story when he was pushing welfare reform. A success story at that. They called her an "anecdotal" story. Saw it with my own eyeballs on C-Span.
Hey, I was told you CAN'T get here from there when I was 35, strung out on a $200/day habit, no skills, no friends, no health, homeless and close to death and a drunkard with a record. Way past 18. I know, I am just an anecdotal gnat. Cheer up, Keachie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YBeepShsgo

 Douglas Keachie

Hey Grumpy Cat, would you mind explaining how one can be "dropped off at 613" when the ranges you discuss are only those students between the 25% and 75% ? And suddenly you left out the sex breakdown, and can you deal with a 697 English, 99% for sure for guys, and do you think it is really sane to rate folks by one afternoon's worth of effort on one test once in your life? BTW what were NMSQT scores? I sqeeked in there at 99% as well. Yes, without the paper in front of me, 613 is not 99%, but neither of us have defined, "closee."

Toser, you are indeed a great success story, and I'm sure SS will enable you to help your grandchildren through college, without them having to take out a loan. Does it make any sense for students to be accumulating worrisome debt or have to wash $12,500 of dishes per year at $8/hour, when they are supposed to be learning how to make a better country?

BTW, how do you feel about the fairness factor wherein teachers who have state pensions via teaching, are forbidden from collecting ANY social security, regardless of how much they have made outside of their teaching jobs, during times when they were unemployed by District's and either worked for someone else, or were self employed? Or, God forbid, started a business while teaching and maintained it on the side?

 Douglas Keachie

OK, have it your way. Everything is hunky dory, and automation, trans global trade in products and skills will not change anything, and nobody will be starving, and the Great Divide is nothing to worry about for anyone, it will not change a thing, and we are wasting time here having these discussions, when we ought to be out enjoying life or piling up more moolah, or feathering out respective nests, (in some cases building better foxholes and security systems).

Bill Tozer

Actually Keach, I feel if you pay into SS you should receive it. The fairness act don't seem fair. Even for those that don't pay much into SS through their working lives do receive a minimum amount. My Mom was an example. My older sister is another. Don't think your situation is fair, but probably legal.

Yes, teachers get screwed. Actually know a nice retired couple, both of them teachers. They have to do odd jobs (tutoring, stock trading on the home computer)to stretch their dollars in their golden years. They simply told me they are both retired teachers....that says it all.

Ok, enough of the formalities. Look what they are doing to our kids!!! I will not hold you personally accountable for this one, lol.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/358552/california-protects-pedophile-teachers-kevin-d-williamson

Gregory

Tozer, I liked your family anecdote. Your nieces and nephews couldn't have gotten where they are now without mom and dad getting a lot of things right, and a concerted effort continuing over a number of years.

Keachie has been bouncing from one Bright, Shiny Object (BSO) to another since I first encountered him ~15 years ago on a local listserv. The newest innovation that is going to blow all of us out of the water is online access to education that allows anyone anywhere to learn from the best. If you think about it, Johannes Gutenberg cracked that nut about 600 years ago, and about a century ago a Scot with sense built libraries just about everywhere (even Grass Valley) to enable the world's knowledge to be available to everyone. Yes, the internet makes it easier to have a Carnegie library at the fingertips of anyone with a mobile phone, but what our resident ADHD afflicted educator hasn't figured out is that to go from counting on your fingers to quantum mechanics takes years of focused study and the accumulation of sufficient intellectual capital. What's needed isn't a "jump starting". There is no Royal Road to mathematics; there wasn't in Plato's time and there isn't one now. Flitting to the web site du jour isn't a panacea.

BTW Keach, for someone who thinks the SAT unimportant you sure do obsess about it and inflate the meaning of yours. I checked, even for guys, your SAT-V rates a 95, which you would be happy with if you weren't obsessed.

No, I don't think it's fair that teachers got themselves excluded from Social Security. Yes, I think there should be a way for you to get it. Start by paying all of your back social security taxes on teaching income and have your past employers do the same, getting back some or all of their CalSTRS deposits. You'd get much less from STRS, maybe nothing. Is that fair? Not really, but that's the unfair system the rest of us are subjected to.

Gregory

"would you mind explaining how one can be "dropped off at 613" when the ranges you discuss are only those students between the 25% and 75% ?"

Because something like 85% of the kids accepted into Berkeley have a better math score than you had.

Talk to a guidance counselor. "Billy, there's a small chance UCB will accept you, but be sure to also apply to Davis and Merced and have Cal State Hayward as your backup"


 Douglas Keachie

Well Greg, I merely want the same thing you get, based on the money I put into social security, independent of the money I put into teaching. You would penalize me for having a split career? You who complains so much about how hard it would be to become a teacher in mid-career?

I'd also like to see no cap on social security taxes, so that if you are super wealthy, you put more in. Supposedly that would make SS solvent for a long time to come. I gather you have no problems with armed forces and political types getting both SS and their respective retirements. And for someone who is fascinated with what tier college folks went to, you are the one who is obsessed.

Gregory

Your union got the SS deal they wanted, Keach; from the beginning CalSTRS was set up as a system instead of Social Security. Take it up with them.

I'm not "obsessed" with what kind of college anyone went to, Keach, but it sometimes makes a difference (like when a polisci major from a 3rd tier has issue with a physics major from a 1st tier over an issue of physics and won't listen to reason), and it's been apparent over a number of years that your harassment over the college I went to has more to do with a very old sibling rivalry due to your brother being accepted to Stanford and getting a degree in engineering. He also is a pilot. I was a convenient alternate target.

Sorry you didn't make the Stanford grade, Keach. I'm even sorrier Cal wasn't good enough to soothe your spirits a half century later.

Bill Tozer

Mr. Gregory, in the atmosphere of full disclosure, my chemist niece is now doing stuff at Virginia Tech under the 6 years contact which includes them paying for her doctorate, not U of Virginia. Probably don't matter, but when mentioning other people besides myself I want to accurate. Especially family.

Keachie, I say Cheer up, not that everything is hunky Dory. Here is some red meat for you:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/poverty-stuck-15-percent-record-182148538.html

And just for fun and to tweak your nose, try this one on for size:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/09/16/bush-ended-financial-crisis-before-obama-took-office-three-important-truths/

George Rebane

BillT 205pm - that Fox News link is an important one that has not received any coverage from the lamestream for obvious reasons. The 'crisis' to follow was manufactured and managed as one that could not be wasted for the promised fundamental transformation of America.

Ken Jones

Tozer you cite an article from a couple Bush lackeys that were advising him on economics. Any wonder they claim Bush ended the recession? How convenient. Wouldn't help their business to claim otherwise. Nothing more dishonest than Fox News and as lame as the term lamestream.

Gregory

Thank you, Ken Jones, for a textbook ad hominem response. You found no error in the account, just the politics of the authors, respected professors at Stanford, and you completely misstate the article, which is that the financial *crisis* had been ended before Obama took office, not the recession.

"All the major financial sector rescue policies were created and implemented during the last five months of the Bush administration" is an easily refuted statement. Just point out one that was started by Obama's signature.

fish

Oooh...bad news boys! Bush didn't end the financial crisis...neither did Obama.

Gregory

Tozer, any of the hard sciences are impressive choices, glad to hear your niece has a sweet deal. My own little chemist added an MA Physics last spring on his way to a PhD in chemical physics.

One issue regarding top tier colleges that I am obsessed with, and maybe our own ADHD education apologist is misinterpreting this, is that any good public school system will enable a good student to gain the knowledge they need to gain admission to a top college and graduate. That requires solid language and if a math intensive subject is to be chosen, they'd better have a solid, rigorous mathematics curriculum in place from K all the way to 12, or they won't be able to compete well enough to even get in the door.

My finding fault with the GVSD is from my own experience when realizing how incompetent the district was in math and to a lesser extent, language instruction, and knowing the path through high school starts in the 1st grade. A former coworker of mine at USR, a talented engineer, refused to believe the weak elementary math program at the GVSD was a problem. 'That's all just simple stuff, the kids will be able to pick it up later', then his daughter had a meltdown in Algebra... dad tried to help her and found she'd never even learned terms like "numerator" or "denomenator". Yes, fractions are simple once you grok fractions, and then algebra can start to make sense. In fact, all of elementary arithmetic is pretty damn simple once you understand the fundamental concepts... after some solid algebra, geometry, trig, calculus. Each step is far from revolutionary but a discovery based curriculum where kids spend 12 years discovering things for themselves rather than from someone who already knows it backwards and forwards isn't going to be preparing *any* kids for a CalTech, MIT, Mudd *or* the departments of math, chem, physics, or engineering at the likes of a UC Berkeley, which, by the way, by some measures has a more highly rated chemistry program than CalTech et al.

Bill Tozer

Fish, finally we disagree!! The article said the financial crisis (for all intents and purposes)ended by Dec. 2009 and also clearly pointed out the ensuing recession followed after Dec, 2009. The financial crisis has ended as in the sense you and I and everybody and their mother ain't rushing down to join the run on the banks today. Nor are the big banks shuttering their doors.

Now, I can see a crisis brewing in the muni bond insurance market as one of Detroit's biggest bond insurers may go under after Detroit's bankruptcy. Too much exposure. Think they would have learned the exact lesson after Montgomery County almost took them down. Cheaper ain't always better. Too many eggs in one basket. Not the place for small bond insures to play. The big boys can absorb the hits better.

As far as our dear friend Mr. Jones goes, he has a wee bit of a problem reading the black on the page instead of the white. If you really want to get our friend's undies all knotted up, just post anything from Fox News.com. The messenger is shot at 300 meters. Gets him every time. And he claims Fox is lazy and intellectually dishonest, ROFLMAO. Oh, you point one finger forward, you got 3 pointing back. I love a good irony.

Gregory

"Oooh...bad news boys! Bush didn't end the financial crisis...neither did Obama."

There is no financial crisis at this time, though there are some really big potential crises that many are worried about, for good reason. If you disagree, could you be specific?

If you're in a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging. The Feds and the Fed continue to dig.

Ken Jones

I read the article and stand by my statements. Don't feel it necessary to explain to you Greg. Regardless of any comments I make you will take issue. It is what you do while making typical narcissistic statements. True to form. And no Tozer read the article just disagree. Fox News is both intellectually and morally bankrupt. I guess even a broken click is right twice a day so there might be a hint of truth. Won't catch me citing MSNBC or CNN. Bias runs on both sides of the aisle. You can laugh your ass off, might take some time until you are finished. Regardless of any implication that Fox isn't bias, I will take those citations as pure unadulterated BS.

Russ Steele

Obama’s fairness plan is working, we are headed for common ground, misery for all.

During the four years that marked President Barack Obama’s first term in office, the real median income of American households dropped by $2,627 and the number of people in poverty increased by approximately 6,667,000, according to data released today by the Census Bureau.

That brings the total number of people in poverty to about 46,469,000, or about 15% of the population.

Bill Tozer

Ok, Mr. Jones. Fair enough. Putting words in the strawman's mouth claiming that we believe Fox is not biased was fantastic!! Glad you slayed that one and we can all feel safer now. Boy, you beat that strawman to a bloody pulp. I believe the news division is a good source of infor.

Just curious, Mr. Jones. You say you disagree with the article. Do you have any time in your busy schedule to expound on the disagreement. You disagree with the cause of the global meltdown, more specially the influx of foreign dollars into the USA few years before 2009 which created a lending bubble? You disagree that the Lehman Bros and AIG and banks were over leveraged and overexposed to mortgage back securities in the fall of 2009?

You disagree with Tarp being temporary and all but 5 billion (out of 700 billion) has been paid back?

Maybe you disagree with the premise that the financial crisis was over by Dec, '09. Hint: Financial crisis means financial institution crisis, not personal finance crisis. Perhaps you confuse fiscal policy from monetary policy, or financial crisis from economic crisis.

I do believe that Tarp triggered the OWS short lived self impoding movement, but it was sure entertaining while it lasted. A modern day Kumbaya song with lyrics, no? Even made 1%er a popular phrase. Best thing that came out of the Movement.

So, you disagree. With some, one, or all words on the post??? Tanks, tanks a rock. Love, Bill

Ken Jones

Bill my disagreement lies in the premise of the article. It is an opinion piece, written by two former Bush economic advisors. There is bias throughout the article. Fox has an issue with truthful reporting. I am far from confused Bill. I also have no interest in engaging in a pissing contest about the merits of the article. Made my point, moving on.

http://www.projectcensored.org/11-the-media-can-legally-lie/

Gregory

Sorry, KJ, but that piece wasn't produced by Fox News. It was adapted by the authors from a work of theirs, "Observations on the Financial Crisis", copyright by the Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Junior University

http://www.scribd.com/doc/163852744/Observations-on-the-Financial-Crisis-by-Keith-Hennessey-and-Edward-P-Lazear

So, rather than do your usual cheap hatchet work against Fox, treat it like a work from Stanford, which is where it originated. Try again.

Douglas Keachie

Greg, by pretty much everyone measure, my life has been far more successful and rewarding than my brother's. Someday I'll fill you in on all the gory details, but he has not worked as an engineer since 1979, has no kids, no wife, and darns socks to sell at flea markets, and is quite dependent on the kindness of strangers. In short, he's kind of a mental basket case, despite all the efforts of my aunt, my mom, my sister, my father, a whole succession of therapists, and myself to help him down through the years.

You assume a hellova a lot about things you know nothing about. It shows in other areas as well. Yes he owns 3 aircraft, none of them in flyable condition, and he won't sell them to those who would love to fix them up. They get moved about from time to time, as the storage places he rents shift in availability. Being a pilot, graduating Stanford, and being an engineer, are no guarantee of happiness or success in life. You are in a different universe than he, and for all my grumpy cat and Sheldon all grown up remarks, a much better one, and you've been tested far more than he ever was, and yet have gone on to live well anyway, despite you insane stereotyping of teachers. If their was such a thing as an occupational racist, you'd qualify.

Bill Tozer

Thank you very much, Mr. Jones, for answering my question concerning your disagreements found within the article, I think.

The premise? Short and sweet answer. Tanks again, tanks a rock

Ken Jones

Bill you are welcome.

fish

There is no financial crisis at this time, though there are some really big potential crises that many are worried about, for good reason. If you disagree, could you be specific?

I still maintain that the financial crisis has not ended but has merely been deferred. Under my definition, an ending of the financial crisis required evidence that the economy could stand on its own without constant attention from the federal reserve (manipulation of the bond market) and drunken sailor spending levels by Washington.

If the fed follows through on its plans to taper and rates spike FEDGOVs ability to finance its largesse will be severely impaired. Since FEDGOV spending is the only thing keeping this economy from succumbing to rigor mortis, when it stops I think we will see 2008 - 2011 all over again but probably much worse!

Bill Tozer

Mr. Fish: Exciting times bro, exciting times.

fish

Exciting times bro, exciting times.

Bill at this stage, I will gladly forgo that sort of excitement

Bill Tozer

Mr. Fish. Indeed a double edged sword. Here is a long in the tooth article pointing out the good stuff about QE. Not too many big words. Don't know if it is on topic (The Rise of the New Skilled Class), but it won't make you eyes glaze over too much.

Bottom line: I, too, worry about the cost of financing goberment largesse (is that a French word,largesse?). You don't want to see the projections for how much of our budget will go to interest only in the sweet buy and bye to come.

All in all, nothing will create jobs in our current fiscal and monetary philosophy/policy. The Big Firms are more likely to buy back shares, raise dividends, pay off debt, refinance debt and gobble up smaller companies than expand right now. Little organic growth I can see. Guess we are all still wobbly from that last Great White Knuckler at the amusement park. What a ride! Come on, lets do it again. I will even pay for your ticket. I double dog dare ya. It will be different this time.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-09-17/bernanke-saves-companies-700-billion-as-apple-to-verizon-borrow.html

Douglas Keachie

My work outside of teaching required that I pay into social security. If I have put in the minimum of 40 quarters or whatever it was, why should I be penalized for showing good initiative and going over and beyond the norm in the productivity department?

You have no difficulty with veterans and politicians drawing from separate retirement accounts, what's any different about teachers? I paid in, I expect to get out, even if it is the minimum amount available. Got a problem with that? Please explain. This is not work instead of teaching, this is work over and beyond teaching.

George Rebane

DougK 108pm - we agree (hold the applause please)! If you pay into SS within a proviso that is totally separate from other arrangements for your retirement, then you should get your due, or at least be made whole.

When I was an adjunct professor at CalState Northridge, STRS collected so little from my meager compensation (it was a labor of love) that they remitted my payments when I decided not to accept a permanent professorship. You should at least get your SS money back.

Gregory

Doug, I am shocked (shocked!) that your brother is a "mental basket case", but nothing you wrote refutes my claims. You've been casting stones in my direction for years for having degrees from private universities for years. Thanks for not disputing your attacks on me have been inspired by your brother's BSEE and Stanford schooling, or that you are still smarting over getting rejected by Stanford.

"And for someone who is fascinated with what tier college folks went to, you are the one who is obsessed." -Keachie


It isn't because of the cachet of going to a well regarded school, Keach. For example, here's one measure of Cal State Frisco (Frisch's alma mater) applicants:
http://collegeapps.about.com/od/GPA-SAT-ACT-Graphs/ss/san-francisco-state-admission-gpa-sat-act.htm

Caltech's:
http://collegeapps.about.com/od/GPA-SAT-ACT-Graphs/ss/caltech-admission-gpa-sat-act.htm

Here's Mudd's:
http://collegeapps.about.com/od/GPA-SAT-ACT-Graphs/ss/harvey-mudd-college-admission-gpa-sat-act.htm

Here's MIT's (ryan's favorite):
http://collegeapps.about.com/od/GPA-SAT-ACT-Graphs/ss/mit-admission-gpa-sat-act.htm

I've no reason to doubt Frisch is above average for CSU 'Frisco alums, but you might look at the plots I've linked to understand what it is about top tier schools that make them great... it's the students and faculty they have attracted. I know a couple of CSU math professors, and they are not teaching the math they'd be teaching if they had more students capable of hacking a top tier school.

I did take a few math and science classes at CSU Los Angeles in the '70's when I took a year off from Mudd to recharge my own batteries and bank accounts, and my swag is that maybe 10% of the CSU LA students were top students. From the average student, very low expectations are the norm.

A CSU Northridge math prof once made the claim (in a closed email list I am on) that, in the math teaching methods class he once taught for prospective elementary school teachers, that the students, far from being ready to learn to *teach* elementary math, arrived with about a 4th grade understanding and all he could hope to do is bring them up to a 7th grade level by the end of the class.

That's dismal. That's also a class of people destined to teach a thousands of bright eyed, eager children whose parents will have no clue how clueless their child's teacher actually is.

Gregory

GR, it's a long established SSA rule: no refunds. They are made whole... SS payments are reduced because much of their income was income shielded from SS taxes.

That was the deal from the beginning, and it's been in place for many decades. I'm guessing Keachie didn't bitch about it before he retired.

Keach's union brothers in the private sector (a few do exist) pay SS taxes on their income, and there is less in their pensions as a result. You can't have it both ways.

George Rebane

Gregory 551pm - well then, the two pension programs are not independent as was the proviso for my 122pm prescription.

Bill Tozer

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-09-19/women-waiting-tables-provide-most-of-female-gains-in-u-s-.html

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