‘Obama was unaware…’ again? (updated 3nov13)

George Rebane

Forget the latest Obamacare website fiasco for a bit.  A very surprising piece of news is making the headlines this morning about Obama’s reported ignorance that NSA was tapping the phones of certain world leaders.  (more here)  My surprise is not of the kind reported, and perhaps I’m the only one who is surprised by this “official’s” claim of yet another area of his administration’s activities about which this community organizer is also unaware.  But what are we to make of the claim?

1.    Obama is lying again, and he was fully aware, as he should have been, of NSA’s phone surveillance of peer world leaders and the relevant contents which were reported to him regularly.
2.    Obama’s minions did tap friendly world leaders’ phones on their own (lower level) recognizance and purposely failed to report the policy and contents of such taps to their boss.  If so, then how much more of such high level unawareness is going on in this administration?

The point here is that Obama’s ignorance of his regime’s monitoring of peer world leaders was disclosed as an official statement by a lower level lackey.  Whether true or not, this does not project a good picture of our government being run by a cadre of competent leaders.  (Lest some local liberals think that this view is again limited, check out Bob Woodward's asessment that this administration is "a rat's nest of concealment and lies.")

Now we are in danger of Obama doing the next sophomoric thing by issuing some ‘guarantee’ that we’ll never do it again.  Or worse, that we’ll only do it again under the ‘guarantee’ that Obama is definitely not told about it.  Or …?

For the bit of tricky logic involved here, I want to emphasize that I’m not advocating that we base our foreign policy on information made incomplete by purposely blinding ourselves to things we can see and  should view.  I question 1) how such surveillance policy is conducted within this administration (internal ignorance, incompetence, rogue agencies, …?), and 2) how we respond to charges of such surveillance from foreign leaders (further damage to our deteriorating image of being a trustworthy, strong, and competent ally).

[30oct13 update]  H/T to RR reader.


[3nov13 update]  I'm reminded of certain prescient readers who last spring assured us that all of the Obama scandals would be forgotten beyond recall by this time, most of all what happened in Benghazi on 11 September 2012.  Reality is a bit different.  Obama's job performance is so poor that he even invites the lamestream to start ressurecting the history of his administration's disasters.  Last Sunday '60 Minutes' revived Benghazi with a re-examination of the events of that day and the treasonous response from Washington and the Snowden revelations.  While today Sen Lindsay Graham (R-SC) has vowed to hold all remaining Obama appointments from Senate approval until Obama permits the Senate to hear from the Benghazi survivors before concluding its investigation.  (Can you imagine the thinking that is going on in that puzzle palace to continue denying Congress that testimony?)  Hillary should be scheduled for some industrial grade teflon treatments before all this is over.  I think some reporters out there are beginning to smell one or more Pulitzers in the growing pile of garbage that continues to be buried in the Rose Garden. 

Comments

[Paul Emery]

George

Benghazi was a picnic in the park compared to the war in Iraq. During the heat of the war it wouldn't have made the news.

[George Rebane]

PaulE 856am - Now there's another reach. Accountability??!! for what? the operation of a multi-national intelligence gathering network? I'm afraid we'll have to leave you to the joy of your comparison on this. We have fully informed the reader on our respective positions on this.

[Gregory]

Paul, your attempt to whitewash Benghazi under Obama and Clinton by claiming it was no different than Bush's use of CIA intelligence is very strange.

For one thing, Bush never sent the US Ambassador to the UN on a tour of the Sunday talking heads to spread what was known to be false... before, during or after, nobody at the White House thought Christopher Stevens & company were killed by rioters upset by a shoddy, blasphemous video on youtube.

They knew it was an organized terrorist attack, but that would be inconvenient for the 2md term election just weeks away, and their running-dog lackeys in the press lapped up the bogus line.

[Walt]

I need a scientific mind to answer a question
to what we were just looking at up in the heavens.

We saw what appeared to be a "shiny" stationary object
to our South at about 60 or so deg. off the horizon.
I grabbed my long range rifle scope just to see what I could make out, with not much luck. Grabbed the spotting scope
and took a peek. Once stabilized, I realized the damned thing
is in orbit.( it moved right out of frame) Whatever this is has been tracking West to East.
Those that are smarter than me ( my educated daughter ) believes it's reflection off the Moon.. It well could be
according to her "smart phone".
The West to East movement has me puzzled if it's the moon.
Never seen anything like it before.

What were we seeing?

[Walt]

Just went out to look,, and now after more than half an hour, it's still there.

[Paul Emery]

George

How simple can I put it. Intelligence that was used as evidence of the need to go to war was wrong! Who was accountable for this mistake that had such a tragic toll that continues to this day and into the future as we pay for this disaster in both human suffering for the injured soldiers and the families of those who died fighting this senseless war.

This blog is so blatantly partisan that it is impossible to take weriously. Any of the right leaning contributors could have expressed something like Ron Pauls assessment of Obama's policy on Syria:

"The process was identical to the massive deception campaign that led us into the Iraq war," Paul wrote in his weekly column, pointing to a Washington Post report that revealed President Barack Obama's administration had decided to arm Syrian rebels before it had officially confirmed that Syrian President Bashar al-Assad’s forces had used chemical weapons against them."

He gets it, something our host is not capable of comprehending.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/17/ron-paul-obama-syria_n_3454782.html

[Walt]

Well,, now it's gone. One second it was bright in the sky, went back in the house for a moment, come back out,,, nuttin....

Are those "star maps" pretty reliable? According to the "map"
the moon was out of position by a lot. In this case vertically. It showed the moon above and to the right of the Sun. This "object" was @ 3:00 to 3:30 in relation to the sun.

Being visible, and seemingly stationary for close to an hour
(if not more) peeks my curiosity.

[Walt]

OK,,, Things are getting weird.
Object is now at 8:00!!

[George Rebane]

Walt 1142am - Your indication of the direction from the sun is good, but please add to that the distance from the sun in the number of finger widths at full arm extension. I have not seen anything today like you describe. Perhaps it's just a residual effect of the Halloween party you attended last night, if so, send me a bottle of the stuff ;-)

PaulE 1105am - Is this part of your continuing campaign to paint me as the lone looney in these mountains? If so, then I stand fooled in the company of Victor Davis Hanson.

[Walt]

This is getting a tad "X files".
As of 10 minutes ago, it's a bright dot to my E., and slightly S. Somewhere between Tahoe and PV.
I took a shot with a survey transit, and it was at 50 deg.
Called NOAA in SAC and Reno. They have nothing up.
It's way past the sunlight refractive range to be a natural
"sun dog" or ice crystal mass.

My neighbor came by not long ago,( first guy I called to have a witness) and said that he saw two jets giving it a pass.
Just coincidence? Who knows. They could have been way below or even above it. That part I didn't see.
My money is on a balloon of some sort. What else could it be?
Right?
At least whatever it is gave us a bit of excitement and speculative fodder.

Sorry Doc.,, Can't blame this on Absinth. ( good stuff non the less)

[Paul Emery]

Quite the contrary George. I respect your views on many things but I'm afraid that you are a genetic Republican, like some others on this site, and certainly a "tarian" light when it comes to objectively observing the common traits of deceit when it comes to Presidential power abuses. It's a convenient view to have when you can't walk the squack so to speak.

[Todd Juvinall]

George, what a great compliment from PaulE. As you and your parents were escaping from the Nazi's and the commies, both a brand of left, I bet you had no idea you were a genetic Republican. That freedom bug must not be in a genetic liberal like PaulE.

[Paul Emery]

Spoken from a genetic Republican himself. Gosh Todd, if I was a genetic liberal how come I voted for Gary Johnson?

[Walt]

Guess I'm not the only one who saw "something".
I see The Union has it now. I just saw the one.

[Todd Juvinall]

How come I voted for Tom Bradley? You see PaulE, you are a bigot, we are not.

[George Rebane]

Walt 421pm - Well dammit all Walt; here I thought I was going to get a bottle of your favorite, and all this time you were as sober as a judge.

Getting back to PaulE's defense of Obama, I guess it's OK to continue to be an incompetent and a liar as long as you believe that any president who came before you was equally guilty. I wonder how that stands up in the court of public opinion, since with that argument 'Anything goes!' is the watchword of the day for all government officials.

[Paul Emery]

Todd

That must have been in 82. Genetic traits, however, don't manifest till later in life then they're hard to overcome. I will never vote for a Republican of Democrat again for reasons I've overstated on this forum

Actually I played music for several George Deukmejian fundraisers in those days for which I was very well paid, much better than the Democrats. I also played for Sal Russo's wedding. Sal was Dukes campaign manager that turned his campaign around enabling his to win in a squeaker. That led to my band being invited to perform for the Queen of England when she visited Sacramento in '83 I think. As I recall I voted for Bradley but Duke was a very nice man far more pleasant than Brown or Wilson whom I also played music for.

Sal Russo by the way turned into a big time Republican operative currently assigned to heading up the Tea Party Express, the blatantly Republican TP version. Got to keep those populists in line you know.

[Al]

Walt,

http://sploid.gizmodo.com/incredible-sky-event-looks-like-aliens-spaceships-comin-1456604943/@jesusdiaz

[Walt]

Judge, and sober ? In this county? Then lock me in a rubber room. Now.. If you'd care for a jug of somthin' different
you have come to the right guy. Something for a nice snowy night by the fire? or is anesthetic for the current political atmosphere more to the pallet's liking? ( A South West bar tender for a stretch in a past life) Santa may leave a gift
hanging on your gate post.

Now back to the subject.
Healthcare? Guess what I got in the mail?
The old injury an insurance Co. owns is throwing me to the wolfs. I'm supposed to join the Ca. crap.
This just keeps getting better and better......

[Walt]

Thanks Al, but not even close to what was seen.
Actually, that was my first thought.
"This",, traveled slowly from West to East.
Being visible from 10:30 at when I first saw it
till 1:20 it faded from sight in the East.
There is a guy my friend knows who saw it too.
He took some angle and direction notes as well.
I can't wait to see where those lines meet.

[Bill Tozer]

Walt, I believe you saw our own Mr. Anderson waltz across the atmosphere on his way back from the stratasphere. What else could it be?? As anyone seen Mr. Anderson lately or even this morning? Hmmmm? I rest my case.

[Bill Tozer]

Apparently President Obama was unaware. Dilution is now THE solution.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/DC-Decoder/2013/1101/Six-signups-on-Obamacare-Day-1-Why-it-s-a-big-problem-not-a-disaster

[Paul Emery]

George

Please show me where I treat Obama any differently than any other President? I don't support his healthcare plan, he's a puppet of the ruling class like all the others. He uses denyability like all the others when he's backed into a corner. Unlike you I don't believe he is part of some evil plot anymore than the others were dedicated to servint their masters. Bush to the Neocons, Clinton to Big Business, Bush 1 to military and intelligence gangsters I can go on and on. Worst of all he has no sense of humor and is boring. What irritates me is the hypocrisy of singling him out without looking at the general motley crew of Presidents in my lifetime. They all do the same thing and run up the bills for future generations. Bush though was a warmonger, something Obama has had little interest in up to this point.

[Bill Tozer]

Well, as we bicker about Nam and Bush and who was the baddest of them all, Obama is moving forward. Look at what he did just today.

Our own Jerry Brown and the Mayor of LA are on the Presidential Climate Change Panel. Can't turn your back on this guy even for a second, especially on a Friday evening when the press is heading home for some hot toddies. I wonder if Obama knew what he was doing when he was putting his X on the executive order. Alas, no oversight, oh goodie goodie gum drops.

https://reclaimourrepublic.wordpress.com/2013/11/02/obama-executive-order-power-grab-sweeping-takeover-of-nations-climate-change-policies/

[Walt]

Paul.. The bigger and stronger the military the better.
( There is ugly news out today about "O" purging top commanders
http://www.wnd.com/2013/10/top-generals-obama-is-purging-the-military/ No good....)
We need good intelligence gathering, but not Obama style.
A dead man isn't going to tell you where is buddys are.
A hundred grand in missiles for a dirt nap for one or two
isn't a great return value. Clinton at least saw the error
of his ways and made changes for the better.

Don't forget about "O"'s two faced statement about raising the debt. I do believe you have heard them What was his opinion as Sen.? And look what he's been begging for since being elected.
Nevermind the umpteen TRIL. he has racked up on his on.
And just what do we have to show for it?
A Chinese high altitude "weather" balloon taking survey pictures of it's near future real estate tribute payments.

The statute of limitations has run out of the " Blame bush " rampage. Good God... This guy makes Carter look statesman like.

[Walt]

Bill
It's "G C " now.

http://dailycaller.com/2013/11/01/is-global-cooling-the-new-scientific-consensus/
Let the games begin!

[Bill Tozer]

Mr. Walt: Are you saying the Sun might actually influence temperatures here on Earth? My, what a novel idea. How could the computer models have missed that one? It has been staring us in the face this whole time. Another unsolved mystery.

[George Rebane]

PaulE 725pm - What makes these discussions with you so unproductive is that you do not want to discuss the here and now. Even if we stipulate that your analysis of past presidents is true, it doesn't make a difference because their deeds are history. To the extent that their misdeeds can be reversed, they can only be reversed in the present. Hence taking the current leadership to task for its misdeeds comprise the only levers we have to change the course of our future and fortunes.

And the extent to which I and others consider the current president to be particularly damaging to America is a matter of both belief and recorded performance data. He publicly declared his intention to "fundamentally transform" America, and that has been the only promise in which he has been constant. Although I may abhor his methods, he is openly taking America down the path to a socialism populated by the waypoints of Agenda21 objectives. There is no evil conspiracy here, the man and minions are doing what they said they would do; most of our electorate is unfortunately dumb enough to think that they will benefit from it.

You believe none of this, and consider the only topic worth discussing is how your oft told iniquities of past presidents are equivalent to that of the current one. America can't do anything about changing the actions of Reagan, Clinton, Bush2, ..., but we can vigorously oppose Obama's current means and methods to harm our republic. It's the only game in town.

[Russ Steele]

This one is for Paul E and others who think government shut down hurt Republicans.

Obama shut down the government last month rather than delay Obamacare, and even the feeble Republican resistance to Obama’s madness has paid off for Republicans and hurt Democrats. New Poll Shows Democratic Incumbents in Big Trouble —By Kevin Drum| Wed Oct. 30,

The supporting graphics are here

http://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2013/11/02/obamacare-resistance-pays-off-big-time-for-the-republicans/

[fish]

Mr. Walt: Are you saying the Sun might actually influence temperatures here on Earth?

Enough of this crazy talk Bill....people might start to doubt you're "all there".

[Walt]

DAMN,,Fish,,,, The sun doesn't provide us heat?
It sure got cold last night when the Sun went down. ( I wonder why?)( uh,, not really)

[fish]

Walt..... heat is provided by elves and fairies! Surprised you didn't know that.

Oh....and the sun.....just take a look at this

http://izismile.com/2013/05/23/the_teletubbies_sun_baby_then_and_now_3_pics.html

[Walt]

Thanks for clearing that up. Uh,, teletubbies???,,, Really?? And Doc thinks I was drink'n? Have that mentholated home grown checked by a competent lab.
So.... The UFO was the Google wifi interceptor. Now we may know what those
boxes on barges really are. Launch pads.

[George Rebane]

Walt 1049am - Again I doff me hat to your timely, accurate, and balanced reporting of our latest UFO incident. To be sure, there does remain a smidgeon of disappointment that your observations were not induced by some hard to come by ethanol based concoction which even I mayhaps could put to the test some such sunny day.

[Bill Tozer]

Here is another thing President Obama did not know, chose not to hear and closed his eyes to all this stuff where the rubber meets the road, aka, reality. Obamacare better launch soon or else we are going to take it in the poop shute with Granny's corn cob pipe. Can't wait for 2015, 2016. Fun times ahead. Meanwhile, I will buy three of those cute little monkeys that has one covering its mouth, one covering its eyes, and one plugging its ears. Ignorance is bliss.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/obamacare-delay-send-health-care-110200135.html

[Paul Emery]

Russ 08:21 AM

Dream on Russ. The Repubs as a party have the lowest polling numbers in modern history. Hard to put a Smiley on that one.

Fox news poll on Republican Congressional job approval
10/20-22/13 Approve 20 Disapprove 75 undecided 5

http://www.pollingreport.com/cong_rep.htm

[Todd Juvinall]

PaulE, that may be but we are a year out and politics doesn't stay in people frontal lobe very long. Now that the "little people" are going to start paying for insurance and those that thought they would get free stuff find out it isn't free, things will be much different next year.

The R's will brand your favorite party as the cause of the slimmer pocketbook for millions and millions of registered voters (thanks to Bill Murray in Ghostbusters)

Also, James Carville and his polling bud Greenberg just did a poll and it shows the democrats are taking it up the wazoo for next year.

[Paul Emery]

Todd

I don't have a dog in the fight in this one so I have no real passion except as an observer. The card that the Dems are going to play next to seal the deal is Immigration reform. They will press for a solution, the Pubs will do their usual stall with no realistic option and the Latino vote will solidify behind=d the Dems insuring the Pres and Senate for sure and with possible inroads on the house. That combined with the woman's vote, especially when Hillary cleans house and the divided Pubstrs with the TP's pushing too far to the right will lock it up for sure.

[Bill Tozer]

Good thing Obama did not know. Otherwise if might appear he is playing a rather nasty trick on "just 5%" of the American adults who HAD individual policies for heath care. That "only 5%" (per Obama) represents 15 million folks who are told to take a hike and hop on healthcare.com express. 15 million working folks, many who are self employed, all of them responsible.
Hey, isn't Obamacare's goal is to insure 15 million of the uninsured. I know how to insure 15 million folks without costing the taxpayer a dime. LET THEM KEEP THEIR INSURANCE.

Those that bought individual policies shopped around and bought the best insurance they found to meet their needs. They were wise prudent consumers but Obama & Co. is saying they bought inadequate policies. He knows better than the consumers who shopped around for policies to fit their lifestyle, budget, and needs. Like I need free mammograms?? Like I want a higher deductible? Like I want to give my address, my Social Security number, my income, and all my protected info to some web site whose security is as useful as a screen door on a submarine?

First Obama tells those that have and like their individual policies that they are too dense to know what is best for them. Then he insults them by calling them "only 5%, aka, 15 million citizens who are dumber than a frozen turd on a rock pile. Obama's mandated solution is as worthless as tits on a boar.

https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/601770_10151751086615896_1151163268_n.png

[Walt]

Paul has "no dog in this fight"? Whaaa??? You sure have been in the opposite corner of this on going cage match.
Since you have referenced Bush in some defense of Dear Leader,
I have to put one back in your direction.
I don't recall ever hearing of Bush 1 or 2 (or anyone in their administration) call newspaper heads, reporters, on air news people, or any media for that matter, and chastise them in any way when they said something the administration didn't like.
Many a LIB in the media who has spoke ill of Obummercare, have received "a talk'n too.".. Bob Beckel got one of those calls rom the W.H.

[Todd Juvinall]

PaulE, here is a late poll on Virginia. Looks like it is a 2 pointer now. Those crazy TP mist be out there beating doors. Just like they did for Scott Brown in Massachusetts for Teddy boys seat.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2013/governor/va/virginia_governor_cuccinelli_vs_mcauliffe_vs_sarvis-4111.html

[George Rebane]

I invite your attention to the 3nov13 update to this post.

[Todd Juvinall]

Virginia's election news shows things are tightening up. But the publication MYWAY reported this as part of the story on the race today.

"Polls show McAuliffe ahead and campaign finance reports show a dramatically lopsided dynamic, with television airtime tilted in McAuliffe's favor by a 10-to-1 margin."

So for all those lefty haters of corporations, where did Terry get all this money eh?

So I would suggest if there is any corruption out there, it rests with the democrat party.

[George Rebane]

ToddJ 709am - You raise an excellent point Todd - if Repubs get their campaigns financed by the greedy corporations, where do the monies come from for the Dems in such elections where they outspend the Repubs by multiples???

[Paul Emery]

Good observation Todd. What you're hearing is the "sucking" sound I observed of big money dumping the Pubsters because of their extreme right stance garnishing the Dems who are the new middle right where they like to put their dough. And yes, money wins elections. McAuliffe has a solid 6.7 % average edge according to RCP Average Polling, an average that includes your observation on 06:51 PM. You're repubdreaming again Todd like when you picked Romney by 8.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2013/governor/va/virginia_governor_cuccinelli_vs_mcauliffe_vs_sarvis-4111.html

George

Saying the Pubs will benefit by stalling appointments over Benghazi is reliving the Dems dream scenario of the last couple of months that left the Pubs with the lowest major party polls in recorded history. They'll pull the sheets over the party when they stall Immigration reform.

[George Rebane]

Reading this morning's paper, I may have answered my own 829am question. Corruption at the highest levels.
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303448104579151942508574108?mod=WSJ_Opinion_AboveLEFTTop

[Paul Emery]

George

From your link:

"If Mr. McAuliffe wins on Tuesday, the Clinton Show will officially be back in town. "

Clintons back in town? When did they ever leave. For pure corruption Spiro Agnew still holds the trophy. From The Daily Beast.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2009/01/30/in-defense-of-blago.html

"I figured everyone knew that government, like pro wrestling, was fixed—at every level—a belief that was re-enforced when the Vice-President of the United States, Spiro Agnew, was found to be taking bags of cash in the White House. Spectacular! Would that he was from Peoria."

[Bill Tozert]

Mr. Emery. I remember in days of yore when VP Spiro Agnew came to Spokane. They put him up in the only hotel that was worthy of his office. Bob Hope once slept there. Anyway, Mr. Agnew opened his speech with "I am so glad to be here in Spokane, Idaho." Unfortunately, Spokane is in the Great State of Washington. Guess next time Joe Biden opens mouth and inserts foot, it should be labeled his "Agnew Moment".

Right now (as of today) looks like nobody will beat Hillary. That is my perspective from Nov, 2013. She gets the women vote, not held her accountable for Bubba, and ALL the Dems will rally around her in the end. Maybe an unstoppable Juggernaut.

The only things that bother me about the Clintons was when Bubba got elected, he did not put all his assets in a blind trust. Nay, they put some of the mula in a trust they controlled, off shore. The other thing was when they were leaving the White House, they loaded up a bunch of furniture that belonged to we the people. Not huge in the grand scheme of things but it reveals. some character flaws nonetheless. I remember that joke going around DC when Bush was elected but not sworn in yet that Hillary would have to be dragged out of The White House with claw marks on the curtains.

Here is the current poll numbers for Hillary. I pay them no attention this early in the game. Not worth the paper they are printed on.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/10/31/hillary-clintons-poll-numbers-keep-dropping/?wpsrc=AG0002957

Maybe the public does not want to live through another scandal ridden Administration. Who knows?

[Paul Emery]

Bill

Being of Greek Heritage Spiro was quite an embarrassment to that side of my family. Character flaws for the Clintons? Now that's a shocking revelation. Fact is that Bubba is the most popular polition in the country today and despite being serviced by his intern under the desk while talking with heads of state he would easily be re-elected today if he could run.

[Bill Tozert]

Mr. Paul. Well, at least Bubba felt my pain when he was re-elected. Think Bubba is more much pragmatic than Hillary is and understands the art of deal making. Think Hillary can be more ruthless and shares Obama's view that the Muslim Brotherhood are the good guys. But we take them and elect them, warts and all.

DIGRESSION TIME: you mentioned my sarcasm awhile back. This is to clear the record. I truly like listening to the local radio FM station and like the morning stuff. Gradually I have been turning off the talking heads on AM and find comfort in smoothe music during the day while working. Its like my "take 3 deep breathes" moment and calms me down during stressful situations in this post recovery period. Not joking. My favorite DJs are them Irish women. An Irish lassie's voice I find one the most intriguing things on Earth, like watching a sail boat alone on the horizon at sunset.

Since I have not watched TV once in 2013, I find I am gravitating more to the calmer side of the street. Yep, I ridicule and am over the top sarcastic when posting about politics, great and small. But not about good music or Irish lassies, FYI

Digression over. Oh, BTW, I was referring to the magical mystical sound of an Irish lassie's voice. Like a gentle bubbling brook. Not them Irishmen. Hot tempered drunks they are. I know. I am inflicted with the blood of an Irishman. God created whiskey to keep them Irishmen from ruling anything...

[Todd Juvinall]

PaulE, it appears the left is in a conundrum. You stated the corporate money has exited the R's and moved to the D's because of the extremist factions of the R's. So, if that is the case, then you should be supporting the R's as should BenE and others. Isn't it logical to assume that all your sides railing against Citizen's United and its love of the R's is now turned on its head? BenE should be ecstatic! So, I guess the R's are truly the party of the little people as are their donations, The D's are the corporate stooges. Thanks for your astute observations.

[Paul Emery]

You don't get it Todd. I don't support either the Demos or Pubsters. Once again let me state they are two wings of the same fat bird. The influence that big money buys is not ideological it's practical and the TP's or any populist movement scare big money because they are driven by passion and idealism rather than the blind allegiance that you subscribe to that is so easy to control and predict.

My idea to support 3rd party efforts of any kind is gaining strength with around 30% going in that direction.

[Todd Juvinall]

PaulE, you don't get what I said. You rail against money in politics especially corporate, and now you supply a link that says the big money has vacated the R's and went to the D's. This is your opportunity to support the party of the little people and the little money.

[Paul Emery]

No you don't get it Todd. They are the same party with two factions. Republicrats. I will never vote for one of them again.

[Walt]

I take it Paul will vote for the one that will get the least votes. That's the fighting spirit.
Sorta like when fighting a fire, and every drop of water needs to be found to fight it, ya' go and pee on the driest spot of dirt you can find.

[Gregory]

Walt, if you can't hold your nose enough to vote for the lesser of the two evils, you vote for someone else.

If the vote for the Libertarian in Virginia causes the GOP candidate to lose, the next GOP candidate might decide to not alienate potential voters.

The only wasted vote is one given to a candidate who didn't earn it.

[Gregory]

"Who cares if Tenet worked for Clinton he was Bush's hire at the time of the Iraq war"

Again, Paul, Bush didn't "hire" Tenet, nominated by Clinton and *unanimously* confirmed by the Congress under Clinton.

From the wiki:

"Congress voted to support the Iraq war based on the NIE Tenet provided in October of 2002. However, the bipartisan “Senate Intelligence Committee Report on Prewar Intelligence” released on July 7, 2004, concluded that the key findings in the 2002 NIE either overstated, or were not supported by, the actual intelligence. The Senate report also found the U.S. Intelligence Community to suffer from a “broken corporate culture and poor management” that resulted in a NIE which was completely wrong in almost every respect."

Sorry, Paul, but a “broken corporate culture and poor management” wasn't Bush II's doing and WMDs weren't the only reason for restarting the hot war that had been festering for a decade.

Set the wayback machine to 1990 and stop the madness at the start.

[fish]

No you don't get it Todd. They are the same party with two factions. Republicrats. I will never vote for one of them again.

I will however cheerlead relentlessly for the "birds" left wing while indulging in an obscenely Clintonesque "triangulation" dance!

[Walt]

Greg. The far Left has capitalized on the " Libertarian"/ Conservative divide
for decades. How many "spoilers" have cost the "Right" side of the isle seats?
And a Progressive got the spot, despite really being out numbered.

Anyone who is centrist to far right are all in the same boat. ( so to speak)
The "third" (minority) party has done a great job of shooting holes in the bottom of said boat, with 00 buckshot.
So take us ALL down... Just on principal.... right?

[Bill Tozer]

BTW fellars, Abe Lincoln was the first 3rd Party Candidate and did not even get a majority. Some act shocked that Clinton never got 50.1% of the vote either time. And Al Gore has my buddy Patrick Buchanan to thank for our dear friends down in Florida for not voting for either major party frontrunner.

Ok, back to my latest obsession. Obamacare certainly satisfies my OCD. Yes, Obama did not know. Guess he is still among 100's of millions that has yet to read it after signing it to find out what is in it. Suppose that is why he has Valerie "Stand Down, I said Stand Down" Jarret around for to Barry informed.

The architect of ACA says individual insurance policies will be a thing of the past. That is the truest thing I heard all week. Bye-bye, long time no come see.

Obamba says individual insurance policies are substandard. Oh really? If you have a serious illness, the individual policies allowed you to go to a doctor you trusted, a highly referred specialist near your home, a hospital in your local area or even a better one down the road if necessary. With good top notch care as a bonus. Try doing that on the Exchanges.

So, individual policies purchased by pay as you go 50 something responsible divorced males NOW have to include pediatric dental care and gynecology care? To me that is substandard for my consumer needs.

Everybody...er...the ones that drive around with "I love Obamacare" bumper stickers keep flapping their lips about saving money, affordability, and deductibles. Few are talking about what kind of care YOU will receive AFTER Jan 1st when your health care policy and your doctor who you have been seeing for a few years now are no longer available.

I don't blame Obamba. He simply did not know. He simply does not know Squat Diddly or his brother Bo about the forces of the marketplace. Tell me again how you can add a bunch of goodies to your insurance and have it decrease in cost? Don't think my auto insurance works that way when I add items to my coverage and throw in lifetime free towing to boot. More is less. Or is it less is more?

http://watchdog.org/114137/top-hospitals-opt-out-of-obamacare/

[George Rebane]

Gregory 312pm - I will keep watch with you to witness the crickets sent by the Left to respond to this one.

[Walt]

Dementia, Alzheimer's, and good old Progressive Amnesia has spread like wildfire through the Left. The " I don't know"s and " he didn't really say that" are flying out of Talking LIBS mouths.
I guess they forget that new technology called video tape.

[Gregory]

"Greg. The far Left has capitalized on the " Libertarian"/ Conservative divide
for decades. How many "spoilers" have cost the "Right" side of the isle seats?"

Walt, I was a Jeffersonian/Scoop Jackson/"Clean" Gene McCarthy/Daniel Patrick Moynihan Democrat before turning LIB and I really don't care much for Conservative politics or how badly Republicans who spit on libertarian ideals fare.

George, sometimes the song of crickets is a delight to behold.

[Bill Tozer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIA_y5S1ih8

[George Rebane]

Tonight the White House is revising Obama's famous healthcare quote and now maintains that what he actually said was that 'If you like your health insurance you can keep it, as long as you don't change it. Period.' The problem is that there is no evidence for that quote at all. Technically this is known as a second order lie - a lie about a lie. Higher order lies also exist. We shall see.

[Paul Emery]

George 6:40

Sounds like Bush refining the meaning of "mission accomplished" on a war that raged on for 8 years, cost trillions of dollars, and thousands of lives. They are all the same.

Walt, if Gary Johnson, whom I voted for, would have had a chance to appear at the Presidential debates he would have won a good 30% of the votes. But the Republicrats and their corporate sponsors who run the debates won't let outsiders in for fear they would lose control of their monopoly.

[George Rebane]

PaulE 740pm - Ah yes, back to Bush2 again, but your comparison is not even close. Bush2 celebrated the undeniable defeat of Saddam's forces as a milestone (the subsequent internecine fighting between the religious factions was another matter). Obama lied first about Obamacare, and now has audacity to conjure up a purely fictitious statement - a lie to cover a lie. But apparently it works perfectly with some people, hence we must at least acknowledge that he understands the electorate well enough to know what will be compliantly consumed.

[Bill Tozer]

What Obama needs at this juncture more than anything is Candy Crowley.

[Gregory]

"Sounds like Bush refining the meaning of "mission accomplished" on a war that raged on for 8 years"

The mission accomplished sign was requested by the carrier group, and referred to their mission which was accomplished.

"cost trillions of dollars"

Yes, it did, mainly because we listened to the UN, who didn't take any responsibility for their Oil for Palaces malfeasances, or their lack of diligence in getting Iraq to comply with their many ignored resolutions, who demanded we stay there until everyone was living happily ever after.

It would have been cheaper if, after removing the Baathists, we'd just divvied it up according to pre-colonial borders and gotten out.

"Walt, if Gary Johnson, whom I voted for, would have had a chance to appear at the Presidential debates he would have won a good 30% of the votes. But the Republicrats and their corporate sponsors who run the debates won't let outsiders in for fear they would lose control of their monopoly."

It was nice to have a good candidate on the LIB presidential ballot again, after Ed Clark, Ron Paul and even Andre Marrou there was a paucity of talent. But just being let in the debates wouldn't have been enough.

[Paul Emery]

Gregory writes

"Sorry, Paul, but a “broken corporate culture and poor management” wasn't Bush II's doing and WMDs weren't the only reason for restarting the hot war that had been festering for a decade."

It was Bush's responsibility to insure we had adequate intelligence capability to rely on its findings for such a crucial decision. Also his Secretary of defense admitted later on that there was

"No question it was the big one," he said. Asked if the United States would not have invaded if the administration didn't believe Iraq had the weapons of mass destruction, Rumsfeld said: "I think that's probably right."

So it was Bush's failure to insure we had adequate intelligence to make such decisions that lured us into a needless war.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/02/20/rumsfeld-wmds-werent-only-reason-for-war-in-iraq/

[Bill Tozer]

Mr, Paul, speaking of former President George W. Bush, here is a link to Bush's torrid sordid horrid past that I am certain you already are fully aware of. But, it is good to remind our uninformed readers of what really happened so we don't ever repeat them again in the history of civilization.

https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1394389_10151690558220911_213852499_n.jpg

Yes, we all had enough of Bush's dirty tricks.

[Bill Tozer]

Ok, Mr. Paul, all kidding aside, you MAY be on to something considering the chances of a 3rd party. Found this for you. Look at the bottom of page 11. Who would you vote for in the next election?

1) Dems......35%
2) R's 28%
3) Indep. 30%
4) Dunno 7%

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/A_Politics/_Today_Stories_Teases/Late_October_NBC_WSJ.pdf

[Walt]

Well Gregory,,, How does it feel to continue to back a baled faced liar?
Are you in " The end justifies the means " camp?

"O" and Co. are backing a fake LIBitarian in VA. as we speak.
Mybe the Right should fight fire with fire. Find someone who can BS and lie their way
through the Progressive crowd, run as a LIB, trash the opponent with fabrications, get elected, then run up the flag of the true party affiliation.
Progressives have a good history of doing just that. Yes,,, winning by any means necessary is really honorable... Right? Even JFK won on dirty tricks.
When Nixon was asked why he didn't contest the win,, he was quoted as saying, " Why? He stole it fair and square".
Never mind the growing list of impeachable offences "O" and Co. have perpetrated,
and as usual LIBS refuse to hold him accountable. ( unlike the Repubs with Nixon)

I do believe "O" has met his " Read my LIPS!!,,, NO new taxes" moment.

[Paul Emery]

Walt

O may have met that moment with one big difference, he doesn't have to run for re-election. Hillary will be fresh and rested with tons of corporate business money if the Pubs run a winger. If they run Christie it may be a different story but I doubt they can due to the party split.

[fish]

Hillary will be fresh and rested with tons of corporate business money if the Pubs run a winger.

Now that is must see TV!

[Bill Tozer]

Hillary with her baggage and name may be too much for those that want something fresh.

From the political correct Grey Lady:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/opinion/bruni-hillary-in-2016-not-so-fast.html?_r=0&adxnnl=1&ref=opinion&adxnnlx=1383673218-aYzvjjOmAx/IHITDAiAr2Q

[Gregory]

"How does it feel to continue to back a baled [sic] faced liar?"

I don't know, Walt. How does it feel to be incapable of writing in your native language without major errors or grammar and spelling?

It isn't a lie to tell what you believe to be the truth that later turns out be false. In the case of the missing WMDs there may well have been some in one or more of the many trucks that drove across the Syrian border before Iraq fell. What is known is that the Baathist regime, modeled after Saddam's hero, Stalin, was one of the most ruthless in history, and they were sponsoring terrorists. Given Saddam H's orneriness and support of terrorism, there's also a good chance we'd have eventually restarted the war even without the WMD issue to push the buttons.

Again, the *only* underlying reason we're there now is that Bush I started a war and didn't finish it. GHW handed it over to the very corruptible UN and they passed resolution after resolution that Iraq flouted with impunity.

US forces, including Schwartzkopf, never should have been sent to the Middle East circa 1990. Once there, and once hostilities started, Schwartzkopf should have driven to Baghdad when he had the chance and ended it then and there.

Paul wants it to be Bush's fault that he didn't sniff out George Tenet and fire him without evidence early. Given Tenet's popularity in the Senate (confirmed unanimously) it would have been futile to try to get any Democrats (in the wake of Bush v Gore) to support any CIA director nominee Bush would appoint without great evidence the firing was appropriate. In the end, Tenet resigned just weeks before the bipartisan Senate report found fault; he knew it was coming and left quietly.

[Paul Emery]

Gregory

And what of Rumsfeldt's position that we probably wouldn't have gone to war had we known? Also are you saying that it was our role to enforce the UN mandate even though they didn't ask us to do so? Also you seem to imply that Bush was not responsible for the failure of intelligence because Tenet was at one time Clinton's guy. Can you confirm that position then perhaps we can move along.

[Bill Tozer]

"Paul wants it to be Bush's fault"...Duh, Mr. Gregory. Anything to the contrary would be "I don't accept the premise" akin to Mr. Jones' response to evidence that does not fit the predetermined scenario. Hey, we all have our own beliefs and like a bunch of art students looking at an oak, we all draw different pictures. But, Mr. Gregory, it seems apparent that Mr. Paul just cannot not see everything through the Bush Prism. Kinda like Brother Ben who cannot not see everything through the Hundred Billion Years of Slavery Prism. No solution can be addresses until the past is solved. Bordering on contempt prior to investigation. Science has yet to discover a cure for those types of ailments. Maybe someday someone will invent a pill that will.....

Was it Tenet the guy who stuffed all those classified documents down his trousers after being caught going back into his office? Or was it some other Clinton appointee? Too many to choose from and so little time.

Now, back here in the Golden State. California is heralded as the model of what can do right concerning Obamacare. While other states are having $4-6,000.00 deductibles, CA has capped theirs at 2k. A whole lot is riding on CA's exchanges being successful as the model for the nation. But, our Insurance Commissioner thinks we may need a small delay. Is CA leading the nation again?

http://www.latimes.com/business/healthcare/la-fi-mo-health-insurance-cancellations-20131104,0,3987170.story#axzz2joHw4vxp

[Paul Emery]

Well it's somebody's fault Bill. Trillions of dollars and thousands of lives were spent. Was it in your view a necessary war?

[Gregory]

"And what of Rumsfeldt's position that we probably wouldn't have gone to war had we known?"

I think that was an accurate assessment of the politics of the day. Had any of the attacks on the US that Putin warned his intelligence had heard of taken place, I'm sure that would have turned quickly.

"Also are you saying that it was our role to enforce the UN mandate even though they didn't ask us to do so?"

Do you deny that key votes of the Security Council were bought off by Iraqi Oil For Food graft? Even Kofi Annan's son was on the take.

"Also you seem to imply that Bush was not responsible for the failure of intelligence because Tenet was at one time Clinton's guy."

Tenet (a registered Democrat) really was an appointee of Clinton's requiring confirmation and got 100% support in the Senate. The He wasn't "hired" by Bush II as you stated a number of times, and he was eased out by a bipartisan Senate investigation under Bush II. The "broken corporate culture and poor management” was a long time in the making and in place at the time of Bush II's inauguration.

Paul, you want it all to be Bush II's fault. How about making it Saddam Hussein's fault? After all, he is the one who feigned having WMD's to ward off invasions from his neighbors, refused to follow UN directions and killed more Iraqi's during his reign of terror than we did deposing him and fighting the bitter clingers and Al Qaida who moved in.

[Gregory]

"Benghazi was a picnic in the park compared to the war in Iraq."

Except Benghazi was, at its heart, foreign policy driven by election politics (we couldn't have terrorists overrunning US diplomatic installations in a country that now loved us because of Obama's leadership), and the Obama administration lied about it over and over so as to not rock the reelection boat.

Had they not lied, with a compliant press who really wanted to believe it was a riot caused by a youtube video as claimed by the Obama crony Susan Rice, US Ambassador of the UN sent out to lie over and over, we might very well have a different President in the White House.

[Bill Tozer]

Yes Paul, Operation Freedom, Desert Storm, Gulf War 2, Pearl Harbor, and Big Horn was somebody's fault. Boston winning the World Series was also somebody's fault.

I get your point loud and clear. Bush was responsible for things that happened under his watch as all Presidents are. Sometimes they inherit stuff, sometimes they start stuff. The Buck always stops in the Oval Office. I hear ya.

What I am saying to you is that under the topic Obama Was Unaware, we can't even critique the current shenanigans of the current second term Administration without someone piping in THAT this matter is small potatoes compared to what Bush did.

How dare we talk about Benghazi, Fast & Furious, the IRS targeting political enemies, NSA throwing a very wide huge blanket over all of us instead of targeting foreign enemies/person of interest, Solyndra, our Justice department eavesdropping on journalists and their families' e-mails/phone calls, and my current favorite "you can keep your doctor, period."

We must not go there on Obama cause Bush lied and people died. Bush is a war criminal, where is all the outrage???? I want to see outrage!!!!!

Ok, Mr. Paul, here is what you have been clamoring for years. Maybe know we can talk about about where we are at now. Like whatz on the menu in 2013, not what we ate 7 years ago.

OK, Paul, here is a bone I will toss your way.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/outrage

And if your really need me to express some OUTRAGE!, here is another bone:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OutRage!

I feel your torment. I did my torment on them rice eaters years ago, yet even I got over it. Not sure if they did. It was an outrageous party for sure.

[Paul Emery]

RE Gregory 04:30 PM

Gosh oh Golly Gregory. I didn't know you were a UN guy. In your view it was our responsibility to enforce the UN mandate on Iraq because hey were bribed and wouldn't do it them selves. Thats very internarional of you. Then of course you have no problem with our support of Agenda 21 because, according to you , that was also a UN mandate. It's all very clear now. Thanks for the clarification.

[Gregory]

Got it, Paul; you don't want an adult discussion and prefer to go off the deep end.

Read a bit more carefully and you won't find anything positive about the UN, at least when it comes to expecting them to do the right thing when it comes with a cost.

[Gregory]

"In your view it was our responsibility to enforce the UN mandate on Iraq because hey were bribed and wouldn't do it them selves. Thats very internarional of you."

While the UN fiddled, it was US boots on the ground in Saudi Arabia and our USAF and USN aviators (including a not too distant cousin of mine) who were flying sorties to keep a lid on Baathist Iraq. WE were being shot at on a regular basis while Oil for Palaces graft was sloshing throughout Europe and the far east. All the while there was no armistice, just a cease fire that Bush I set up while the UN set up their plan for rehabilitation that Iraq ignored with impunity.

There was no peace, just a simmering mess with a murderous dictator at the center and a UN that was happy with the status quo; only the US and to a lesser extent, Britain were bearing the military costs with no end in sight.

[Paul Emery]

Gregory

Can you show me the Constitutional authority the US had to enforce the UN mandate in Iraq? You are saying it was because of our commitment to the UN that we were there. From Bush's speech to the nation justifying the war

"The Iraqi regime has used diplomacy as a ploy to gain time and advantage. It has uniformly defied Security Council resolutions demanding full disarmament. Over the years, U.N. weapon inspectors have been threatened by Iraqi officials, electronically bugged, and systematically deceived. Peaceful efforts to disarm the Iraqi regime have failed again and again -- because we are not dealing with peaceful men."

[George Rebane]

PaulE 833pm - Interesting question Paul. The last time the US declared war was on 8 December 1941. The Constitutional authority or the lack thereof was the same for Iraq as it was for Korea,..., Vietnam,..., Afghanistan and everything in between. Were it not so.

[Gregory]

"... Iraq and the U.N. Security Council signed a ceasefire agreement on March 3, 1991. Throughout the 1990s, the U.N. Security Council passed 16 Resolutions calling for Iraq to disarm the WMDs program unconditionally and immediately. Because no peace treaty was signed after the Gulf War, the war still remained in effect, such as an assassination attempt of former U.S. President George H. W. Bush by Iraqi agents while on a visit to Kuwait and Iraq was bombed in June 1993 as a response, Iraqi forces firing on coalition aircraft patrolling the Iraqi no-fly zones, U.S. President Bill Clinton's bombing of Baghdad in 1998 during Operation Desert Fox, and an earlier 1996 bombing of Iraq by the U.S. during Operation Desert Strike. The war remained in effect until 2003 when U.S. and United Kingdom forces invaded Iraq and toppled Saddam Hussein's regime from power."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceasefire#Persian_Gulf_War

[Gregory]

"You are saying it was because of our commitment to the UN that we were there."

No, I never made any such claim. What did I write for you to twist into that pretzel?

[Paul Emery]

Gregory writes: 09:41 PM

"cost trillions of dollars"

Yes, it did, mainly because we listened to the UN, who didn't take any responsibility for their Oil for Palaces malfeasances, or their lack of diligence in getting Iraq to comply with their many ignored resolutions, who demanded we stay there until everyone was living happily ever after."

They "demanded", we complied

[Gregory]

Paul:

"You are saying it was because of our commitment to the UN that we were there."

No, Paul, the US and Britain expecting the UN to keep *their* commitment was what kept the cease fire in place, but the state of war remained. Our aircraft were being fired upon, their agents did try to assassinate Bush I, during the cease fire. When it became clear the UN was not going to keep their commitment, then the war resumed.

We weren't backing the UN, we gave up on them for good reason. See "Oil for Food" for some of the reasons for giving up on the UN fulfilling their responsibilities.

"They "demanded", we complied".

Paul, what nonsense. Fixing a country you broke is ostensibly international law. So, now you are faulting Bush II and the Congress for following international law?

[Bill Tozer]

Hey, what to you think about local LE illegally snooping around people's back yards checking to see if they are in compliance for growing marijuana solely for medicinal purposes. Solely for medicinal purposes as per the law?? Think that is a good idea Paul, now do ya?? Lets go off on Medical Marijuana grown exclusively for patients only. Is that fair that they are restricted around schools? Is it Paul? Shit, we have more cancer patients here than the entire population of Placer County.

Can't ever call you a single issue guy. You have "Bush was worse" and "where's the outrage over local property rights/illegal enforcement of Prop Smoke 'em if you got em"? From what I have seen by fly overs, there is more medicine here that a half million patients could ever consume.

Go ahead Mr Paul, get it all off your chest. Maybe in another dozen years you might move on to something else....like moveon.org. Let 'er rip my brother. Type all night and when Dr. Rebane brings up Singularly, make sure it all relates to that war criminal Bush or how Sheriff Royal is scaring poor little chickens guarding Grannie's 2 dozen plants (for medicinal purpose of course).

It all gets down to not who is right, not who is wrong, not even who is still standing at the end of the day. It all boils down to W and Herb. That be the entire ball of wax, the whole enchilada. Everything else is just minor irritants. We are all ears. Er, speaking only for myself, I am all ears. Come on, drop the rock. Let it all hang out. Free yourself my good man.

I will check back in a 2-3 days to see how you are fairing. You might be writing Chapter 11 or 12 by then. Let 'er fly.

[Bill Tozer]

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/crystal-wright-conservative-black-chick/2013/nov/15/obamas-obamacare-diagnosis-incurable/