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« National Ignorance – Proof of Concept Working (updated 6oct13) | Main | The Remarkable Noam Chomsky »

03 October 2013



This dog fight on Capital hill is just getting started. There is that little issue of the debt ceiling in a vary short time. ( despite record tax revenue
coming in by the train load.) Hunger games part II?
What will "O" and Co. hold over the heads of the Conservatives for that?
" Give me more money, or else! I will not negotiate. There is just nothing
left to cut".
Yes,, those words are coming.

Todd Juvinall

I just returned from Ft. Bragg and I have to say, the state is still at work and the people are out and about. DC is not the center of the universe.

Paul Emery


It's always been the Dems that have balanced the budget. The last BB was under Clinton who worked well with the Newt. Bush ran it up again by refunding surplus rather than paying down the deficit. Why should anyone trust that crowd to do the job.

George Rebane

PaulE 826pm - check out Chart 4.04: Federal Deficit 1900-2016

Ryan Mount

The Federal Budget is a function of both the President and the Congress working (or not working) together. So Reagan has Tip O'Neill to deal with, and Clinton had Newt Gingrich.

The fact that the government is in a ~20% shutdown, is an expression of how our system works, and not how it is broken.

The President proposes, but the Congress funds. There's a distinct reason why Article 1 is about the Congress: it's the money handler which enables every other part of our government.

Michael Anderson

Guys, get your monkeys on the same script for goodness sake!

Apparently you have a locked up Stutzman: "We're not going to be disrespected. We have to get something out of this. And I don't know what that even is."

I would suggest axle grease and a breaker bar.

Paul Emery

Why should anyone trust the Pubbmeisters to balance the budget? Seems to me they are the problem not the solution.

Dwight Eisenhower was last Republican President to preside over a balanced 1956 and 1957. Since then, there have been two presidents to preside over balanced budgets, LBJ in 1969 and Clinton in 1998 through 2001. During the last 40 years there have been five budget surpluses, all five were under Democratic Presidents: 1969, 1998, 1999, 2000, and 2001.

Paul Emery

Oh yeah

Russ Steele

Paul @08:16

Do you know how to read Excl Spreadsheets? Only 1999 and 2000 were suplusses acorsing to the link you gave:

Ryan Mount


So the Congress has no role the budget process? News to me.


Guys, get your monkeys on the same script for goodness sake!

Apparently you have a locked up Stutzman: "We're not going to be disrespected. We have to get something out of this. And I don't know what that even is."

I would suggest axle grease and a breaker bar.

Yeah...that is pretty stupid..painfully stupid....and almost as stupid as the dem lawmaker inquiring as to whether the military was concerned that Guam might capsize if they added to the Marine Corps. presence there.

More than enough stupid to go around in DC Michael.

Paul Emery


Bush inherited a budget surplus in 2000. The Republican Congress and President then ran up the credit card, and gave tax rebates while increasing the deficit. Try to blame that on the Demos.

Paul Emery

Bush 2000

"I hope you will join me in standing firmly on the side of the people. You see, the growing surplus exists because taxes are too high and government is charging more than it needs. The people of America have been overcharged and, on their behalf, I am here asking for a refund."

From there on out the Pub Presidency and Congress didn't give a damn about the deficit .


Dwight Eisenhower was last Republican President to preside over a balanced 1956 and 1957. Since then, there have been two presidents to preside over balanced budgets, LBJ in 1969 and Clinton in 1998 through 2001. During the last 40 years there have been five budget surpluses, all five were under Democratic Presidents: 1969, 1998, 1999, 2000, and 2001.

Yeah....don't those deck chairs look lovely....

Since 1940 the debt trend has been either up or flat excepting a brief decline immediately following WWII. It really spiked in the early 1980's when Reagan put the spurs to spending and dragged all those democrats kicking and screaming into appropriations committee meetings. It hasn't stopped since and won't until the rest of the world takes away the checkbook.....and that's when it's going to get interesting!

Ryan Mount


I'm not blaming anyone in particular; I'm blaming everyone including the electorate.

However more specifically, I'm blaming people who don't understand how our government works and using that ignorance as a propaganda tool. Cooperation is not apart of the way we do things here. And there's a very good and justifiable reason for that.

But my bigger point is, the budgetary process is a dance (at best) between the Executive and the Legislative Branches. To say Clinton alone, for example, was responsible for a balance budget is as a really narrow conclusion as saying Reagan is responsible spending increases during Tip O'Neill's Congress.

That's the point.

To your assertion: Regarding the Bush II years up to 2006 I believe, that's what we get when we stack the government with one party. What's worse that a two party system? Answer: a one party system.

Recommended reading: Articles 1 and 2 of the Constitution to see how we're to handle gridlock. Hint: gridlock is built in and good for the country, even if it has short term consequences.

Todd Juvinall

PaulE, the stock market crapped 1 trillion bucks in one day after the 911 attacks. Though I too am unhappy with the subsequent spending, it is understandably in many ways. I blame them all. You seem to always kiss the arse of the dems and criticize the R's. We know where your sympathies lie.

Walt B

Paul... Which do you prefer better? Obamacare,,, or,, the "affordable care taxlaw"?

Ryan Mount

I don't want to dog pile I Paul here, because I suspect he's as frustrated with our fiscal non-sense as much as anyone else. He (if I can be so presumptuous) verses my preference:

Ryan: The only thing worse than a Republican, is a Democrat
Paul: The only thing worse than a Democrat, is a Republican

The net effect is the same Twiddledee and Tweedledum form of government. And I think gridlock would be something that us, well maybe not partisans, might agree on until we have a broader spectrum of representation.

Ryan Mount

>verses my preference:

*[re]verses my preference:

Sorry for the typo.

George Rebane

PaulE 811am - This is a familiar barn. Recalling my high school civics, it is not the President who unilaterally sets financial policy (admittedly the current one thinks so), but Congress, which can even override the executive veto. I know that it's simpler to think about the President doing everything in Washington. And wasn't Nixon elected in 1968 and Bush2 in 2000? "Inherited a budget surplus" for the following fiscal year seems to be another myth - you either credit a President or not. But RussS' 851am deserves your attention. Bottom line, as other commenters point out, Congress has a bit of role in generating and passing budgets.

All of that, however, is beside the point. We have had a deficit spending policy for generations that is based on an ideology of the welfare state (corporate and private). I back the Repubs because they are the only ones who are pushing to reduce the national debt. The Dems only concern is about creating more poor who need ever more bread and circuses to guarantee a compliant constituency. They haven't met a spending program or a tax increase initiative they don't like.

The real question is, 'what should we do going forward?'

Russ Steele

Our government in action under Obama's leadership, relative to the shut down.

“It’s a cheap way to deal with the situation,” an angry Park Service ranger in Washington says of the harassment. “We’ve been told to make life as difficult for people as we can. It’s disgusting.”

This kind of action just energizes the Tea Party as they demand that the Republicans hold the line.

Taking revenge on the citizens for his failed leadership in not world class.

Read more:

Ryan Mount

> I back the Repubs because they are the only ones who are pushing to reduce the national debt.

Which is Paul's point, which I agree with and offered an analysis of why that was the case: single party control.

"I back the Repubs because they are the only ones who until recently pushed are pushing to reduce the national debt."

IOW, as soon as their party's head wasn't President anymore and it was politically convenient. The fact of the matter is no party is immune to this obscene spending spree. Each of the two major parties are like left home teenagers with the liquor cabinent unlocked. The only stopping them is other party acting like a parent(which is a generous compliment to give a politician).

The thing that keeps our Republic together is our sense of adversary, which is one of the Enlightenment tenants I would like to preserve.

I heard someone whining on NPR this morning that we're an embarrassment to the world. Obviously the person has a 10th grade education. The fact that our government is partially shutdown (NPR used the word "partially" for the first time), and we're not in a civil war ala the TV show Jericho, means our system is strong and working properly; unlike the whiners out there.


Gentlemen! More grist for the mill.

Walt B

There is a reason I asked Paul the previous question.
Many an uninformed "person" thinks they are two different laws,
not realizing the two terms are one in the same.
They are for one,, but not the other. Yes.... These people vote too.

Ryan Mount

> Many an uninformed "person" thinks they are two different laws,

Paul isn't one those people.

> Gentlemen! More grist for the mill.

We're in the middle of a transition between the 5th party and the new, and yet to be defined 6th Party system. Conservatives will see this as the world coming apart, neo (non classical) Liberals will see this as opportunity to change things up.

George Rebane

fish 1235pm - thank you for this link that adds to the mountain of evidence on the potential for the Great Divide. My concern continues that so many people are ignorant of this significant social rumbling in the underpinning of our Republic (examples of such people in these pages abound). Many of the so-afflicted even consider any discussion of this obvious phenomenon as clear evidence of treason. Was it also that way in 1850s?


Liberals will see this as opportunity to change things up.

Indeed. Although that depends strongly on your definition of the political label "liberal".

Ryan Mount

> Although that depends strongly on your definition of the political label "liberal".

I attempted to qualify that in my comments neo vs. classical. Neo in modern parlance means "Progressive" in my mind.

Paul Emery

Can we agree on this , Clinton and Gingrich chose to pay down the deficit with over expected tax income and for practical purposes balanced the budget. Bush and the Pubber controlled congress chose to return the money to the taxpayer and ignored the deficit. That was a major part of his 2000 campaign and in such a razor close election might have won it for him.

Obviously the deficit was not an important priority to the Bushers or the Republican controlled House.

Paul Emery

Walt asks:

"Which do you prefer better? Obamacare,,, or,, the "affordable care taxlaw?"

Good one. You saw that on the news as well. Really funny.

Actually I prefer single payer anyway so I'd say neither


Paul, Bush II, having inherited a recession upon being sworn in that was only beginning to turn around when the World Trade Center towers were obliterated and about a trillion dollars vanished from the capital markets, was a born again Keynesian, as was just about everyone else. It wasn't a time for austerity and I think you know those facts. Stop boxing and start thinking.

Todd Juvinall

As I recall Bush in a speech after the 911 murders did his best to ask Americans to go about their daily lives as calmly as possible. He also said we need not take out any frustrations on the Muslims and Americans did not. But as usual, all good things do not go unpunished by liberals. They always do what PaulE does and say nothing about the towers, the money lost in one day or Bush's humanity. PaulE is just a liberal espousing lefty talking points from DailyKos. Oh and the liberal will supposedly protect a Sandra Fluke's right to choose (using my money to buy her condoms) yet would leave 50 million women to the Taliban murdering scum. Amazing eh?

Barry Pruett

Paul: Congress has the power of the purse. In 1998-2001, the budgets that gave a so-called surplus came from Republican congresses...after a shutdown (I might had) which caused Newt and Bill to negotiate and they did a great job lowering the deficits...but they did not lower any of the national debt at all.

I know we talk about the Clinton "surplus" (could as easily be called the Gingrich "surplus") but in reality the surplus is a math gimmick. We have not had a single Congress or president decrease the national debt during a congressional term since Roosevelt. Your surplus equals debt as a percentage of GDP...but we never paid down any debt in the Clinton years, but they (Bill and Newt) did do a good job reducing the deficit, because the cooperated and worked together.

A good article to read about our current president.

Barry Pruett

Also, Paul, I will agree with you in connection with Bush. He had the house, senate, the white house, and the Supreme Court, and what did he do? They tried to buy a majority (like the democrats) and lost their base. I have heard directly from friends in Congress that point blank told me that is what they were trying to do.

We are in the midst of the Republican correction as we speak. The tea party did not rise out of Obama...the underpinings of the tea party began under Bush.

Barry Pruett

Sorry, but I am on a roll today. Obama (like Clinton before him) has a real opportunity to be a hero by getting back to regular order and balancing a budget by working with Boehner and the Republicans in Congress. Only hyper-partisans will deny credit to Clinton and Gingrich for working together and getting our fiscal house in order. Obama has that opportunity staring him in the face, but instead of reaching across the aisle, he is trying to run the government like the mayor runs Chicago. The mayor can get away with anything so long as the buses are on time and the roads get plowed in Chicago. It just does not work that way in DC and failing to negotiate with people (like Clinton did) is not the answer.

Joe Koyote

I think that the Dems “failure to negotiate” comes from the House offering a false dichotomy. This is the propaganda technique whereby two choices, both bad, are offered and no matter which choice is made the benefit goes to those who made the offer. In this case the Dems were given the choice between caving in on healthcare the week (or less) before it was to be enacted (after 43 votes to overturn it including one by the pro-corporate Supreme Court which surprisingly failed) or suffer an embarrassing shutdown and be accused of “not negotiating.” Given that these were the only two choices available, the Dems chose the latter, letting the court of public opinion decide who is not negotiating with whom, especially considering that with regard to Obamacare there is no negotiating at this point. It is a done deal, the law of the land. The right’s new strategy is that if you can’t elect enough people to enact any laws of your own (because your views are too out of touch) then try and sabotage any laws the other guys pass just to make them look bad. In the case of Obamacare, a lot of speculation points to fear on the part of Republicans that once enacted the new healthcare law might prove more worthy than they have portrayed it making them look even worse than they already look. Smart move by the Dems, the Republican’s look more like fools and spoiled children every day.

The problem is intra-party politics and a conflicted and divided Republican party with no real leadership. There are more than enough (18 needed with 21 saying yes) Republicans in the House who are willing to join the Democrats to pass a clean funding bill and open up the doors again. Rumors are circulating that Republican’s who support the clean bill are being threatened with retribution (in the form of primary election challenges) by the Tea Party faction that supports the shutdown. In the meantime the National Park Service alone is losing $450,000 a day in gate revenues alone. The damage to the economy has yet to be calculated and America is once again the laughing stock of the industrialized world. Way to go guys, ideology before sanity always scores big.

Barry Pruett

"Joe": Last time I checked, Republicans won the Congress in the last two elections, and now Democrats have not elected enough people to pass their radical agenda. That coin has two sides.

Over the past three years, the Democrat Senate not even allowed bills that passed the House to come up for a vote - including a budget. During this impasse, not only are Obama and the Senate refusing to negotiate, they have voted to not fund the VA, the national parks that you mentioned, NIH (why would Harry Reid want to save one child with cancer. It was not a big deal to fund the military, so why not the VA and national parks.

This impasse has nothing to do with Obamacare at this is going to lead to a budget on which the Senate will finally have to vote if they want the government to open.

Todd Juvinall

I fail to see the choices as false when the budget of our country, all proposed 3.7 trillion dollars or, hell, what is that per capita? Is comprised of many parts yet now the demshits want to whine because they want to shove the whole thing down our throats as one bill, a CR. I think this strategy is fine. I sent my suggestions off to the leadership a while back that they should bifurcate and vote on ObamaCare funding separately. They are getting around to implementing my strategery.

Joe Koyote

"Last time I checked, Republicans won the Congress in the last two elections," The last time I checked the term Congress referred to both the House and the Senate. As the Republicans only control the House they do not have enough votes to put forth an agenda of their own because they cannot get anything past the Senate, not to mention the White House. Compromise as a bargaining method does not consist of one side making outlandish demands and expecting the opposition to make rational concessions based on those demands.. it is a two way street. How did the Republican party get nicknamed the "party of NO!" anyway? Was it from all of the concessions and compromises they made with the Democrats or was it from drawing absurd lines in the sand, as this episode points out, and then refusing to budge unless they get something in return?

"Senate will finally have to vote if they want the government to open." The House can vote right now to end the shutdown, the votes are their to end it if the leadership lets it hit the floor, so don't blame it on the Senate and bill originated in the House.

Bill Tozer

Concerning the update, I find this selective closing of facilities rather distasteful.

Maybe the Obamas should furlough their 100K/year dog walker or the full time White House projectionists that are on the ready 24/7 in case our President wants to watch a movie at 3am. Or cut the 20k helicopter ride to bring your pet to the the kids while on vacation. Did the dog really have to have its own helicopter flight?

Better yet, lets close down the Interstate Highway System. The states only maintain the freeways, but the interstates are property of the Fed Government. Shut er down instead of a few websites. Its Federal property, a federal facility if you will. Keep them trespassers off Federal jurisdiction.

Guess what irritates me is this attitude coming from our current President is somehow the Federal assets are private property of the Executive Branch. Sending goons to drive people off Federal Land is ass backwards.

Hello! Mr President: You don't own ANY Monument or Federal Building or forest or park or Statue of Layette or Lincoln. These things BELONG to the people. We the people. You are just getting free rent (no problem with that) in a abode that is owned by the people of The United States of America. The Interstate Highway System and bridges and buildings and the Jefferson Memorial were bought and paid for by the taxpayers of The United States of America. They ain't YOUR toys. Look but don't touch, Mr. President. You don't own them. Shoot, you act like someone that has only signed his name on the back of a check and never on the front of a check.

Barry Pruett

"Joe": Who has voted no for the last week on every single spending bill that originated from the House (where spending bills Constitutionally begin? That would be the democrats in the Senate. Demanding a radical agenda of extreme deficits and debt into the future without any compromise is an untenable position over time. This is Obama swinging for the fences, because the last term ended before it started. The Senate can end the shutdown too through compromise with its opposition...that is how divided government works. This will end with a bigger compromise involving the budget and the debt limit, so in the end once the rhetoric stops, maybe we will see Obama finallly come to the table.

Bill Tozer


Todd Juvinall

Did they close down the Mustang Ranch in SParks? Asl MichaelA maybe he knows. I am pretty sure the feds owned it, well maybe that was a few years ago. LOL!

Michael Anderson

Todd, one of my friends once asked, "why do you insist on kicking a burlap sack full of retarded puppies?"

He was talking about you, Todd. In this forum.
In a sack. A puppy. Retarded.

Joe Koyote

"Who has voted no for the last week on every single spending bill that originated from the House (where spending bills Constitutionally begin? "

How can you expect the Dems to vote yes when, from their point of view, the bills contained absurd and extreme attachments? My point is that the whole thing is a PR ploy to attempt to make the Dems look bad. The Republicans new from the start that the Senate would never pass those bills, so in the meantime the country suffers because of the ploy. It's all just political maneuvering to try and influence public opinion, not really get anything accomplished. It is no different than if I gave you the choice of cutting off your hand or your foot and if you choose neither then I will accuse you of not negotiating.

Todd Juvinall

MichaelA, I like puppies. Why would I kick a burlap bag full of your discarded animals?


The " Ranch" is back in private hands and turning a profit once again.
Good call Todd, The government couldn't even run a cat house, but somehow
are believed to run our heath care system?
I read today that in FL. the feds are trying to close open water
IN THE OCIAN!! How stupid can one get?
"O" and Co. are on a mission of spite at this point.
" Just because" something sits on FED land, they believe they can close it.
They tried to close the home of Washington in Mt. Vernon, with no luck, so what did they do? Closed the parking lot, and bus turnaround.
These are the actions of a tyrant. " Just because he can".

"O" has been compromising with terrorists all over the Middle East,
Puton rides in and saves "O" major embarrassment with his RED LINE drawn in watercolor.
Now all of a sudden "O" grows a pair (balls) and " will not negotiate", yet demands everything he wants free and clear. He has nothing to lose. He has no skin in the game at this point. What will America do? Not elect him again?
( Don't think he hasn't thought about finding a way around that pesky two term limit deal... " What? No one else is bound by that,,, why should I?"

Todd Juvinall

Walt, I was wondering how it is possible for "we" the people to own the land and yet be forbidden from using it? Or even looking at it? I think the Founders would be confused about how DC/Executive Branch came to be Idi Amin?

George Rebane

I draw your kind attention to the 5oct13 update of this post.

Michael Anderson

More sage advice:

Todd Juvinall

George, I sent a comment on to the Union article online regarding their Editorial on the "shutdown". They are back to pre-Ackerman liberal bullshit. All of us should send something and chastise them heatedly.


More sage advice:....

If your point is that if the California Republicans are on a trend towards extinction.....well so what?

The problem remains that once the republican roadblock to raising taxes is gone California is still in deep trouble financially. You can tax all you want but businesses will leave (as they have been), people will leave (as they have been), and those who live off the largesse of the state are staying in droves. It remains to be seen if the populace can vote itself wealthy on the backs of far fewer productive citizens.

The TEAM DEM problem at that point is that now there is no one to blame!

Todd Juvinall

Regarding MA's link. No MA, the fact that a plurality puts a democrat into the Assembly and Senate in California is why things have changed for the worse. Since the R's have had only one year, 1996 as their year of controlling the Assembly, we can see what your pals have done to our once great state. We are the leading state of loony governance in America. It is your fault. R's and D's are shrinking and DTS are rising but that has favored the D's. If we had true representation the ratios would be more t\like Parliament in England. Our state is being run by people that are the attendees of Burning Man.

Michael Anderson

Hi fish, good points. I'll get to your comment in a moment. In the meantime, here's some more comedy:

"So there you are. It’s not easy leading a political movement that believes the federal government is at the core of all our problems while depending heavily on the votes of citizens who get both their retirement money and health care from the federal government."


Okay Michael I'll bite...usually I stop reading after seeing the words "Gail Collins" but it's Saturday and why wouldn't I want to perform a thorough fisking of this generations answer to Pauline Kael. Plus I got another solicitation from AARP today and really don't feel like mowing the lawn....any excuse I guess.

Our question for today is: Why don’t the Republicans just throw in the towel? Really, this is not going well for anybody.

It's not....but since they've already gone "all in" why lot let this bleed over into the debt ceiling talk leading up to the 17th? TEAM STUPID has decent protection on the Drudge Report and even the MSM are starting to look askance at some of Harry Reids delaying tactics. The President? Well this morning he decided that injecting renaming the Washington Redskins was a good thing to do in the midst of the financial I guess he's not a factor at the moment. Nancy Pelosi seems content to let Harry take all the fallout at this point. Note to TEAM EVIL blocking old veterans from veterans memorials makes for terrible press...especially when those veterans tell your federal cops to go fuck themselves and go in anyway. It was the feel good story of the last news cycle.

“So many Democrats have invoked my name as the root of all evil in the world,” Cruz complained on the floor of the Senate Friday. This is true. Senate Republicans merely regard him as the root of most of the evil in the world.

Cruz is running for president....any press he gets at this point that doesn't involve cannibalism is good press. That he wants the job should disqualify him on mental health grounds.

Let’s review. Not so very long ago, worrying about entitlements was central to Republican identity. Then, they began to notice that the folks at their rallies looked like the audience for “Matlock” reruns. The base was aging, and didn’t want to change Social Security or Medicare. The base didn’t even want to be reminded that Social Security and Medicare were federal programs.

This is why the republicans are going the way of the Whigs. Their base is dying off.

The next generation of voters hasn't figured how screwed they are to tell President Hollow Chocolate Bunny and his minions to fuck off..... yet! Don't worry though, much like the sticker shock at seeing their Obamacare premiums, when they figure out that they're paying for some retired schmo now retired to Sun City to get a new liver they'll get with the "small government" program in a hurry. TEAM EVIL is in nearly as much trouble as TEAM STUPID.

During the last Republican primary debates, Gov. Rick Perry called Social Security a “Ponzi scheme.” Mitt Romney jumped all over him, then raced off to tell a conservative talk show host that if the Republicans nominated someone with Perry’s view on Social Security “we would be obliterated as a party.”

This is why I never got the antipathy towards Romney during the last worst he was Obama Lite with more executive experience and better financial acumen. Not to worry, Gail Collins doesn't need to rely on Rick Perry to tell her that Social Security is a ponzi scheme she can consult any actuarial economist she likes who will tell her the same thing. I hope Gail doesn't think the push to legalize all those illegal aliens is because we're such nice guys.....FedGov really needs to get all those low dollar under the table workers kicking into the system so the charade can go on a bit longer.

This year, when President Obama proposed a budget that actually did reduce the rate at which Social Security benefits would rise in the future, the chair of the National Republican Congressional Committee denounced it as “a shocking attack on seniors.”

Just like the fact that I can go down if I'm indigent and get "Foo Stam" and eight Obamaphones.....they still have to talk a good game where their base is concerned too.

All over the nation, Tea Party politicians have been telling their most fervid constituents that Obamacare will bring the federal government into the nation’s health system, thus wrecking the wonderful coverage they now enjoy with Medicare. Which comes into their homes through the chimney, where it is dropped by free-enterprise storks.

So've seen the "spaghetti code" graphic showing just how much integration that this force among the various federal agencies. So I guess they got this one right too. Gail might have wanted to hold off on this column until some of the bugs in Obamacare were worked out before singing it's praises so loudly.

So there you are. It’s not easy leading a political movement that believes the federal government is at the core of all our problems while depending heavily on the votes of citizens who get both their retirement money and health care from the federal government.

Shocking....Gail and I agree! I wouldn't want to be in her very public position if the "Pubbers" as Paul likes to call them go the way of the Dodo and leave delicate flowers like Mme. Collins "holding the bag".

“Obamacare is the most dangerous piece of legislation ever passed in Congress. It is the most existential threat to our economy ... since the Great Depression,” said Representative John Fleming of Louisiana. Think about that for a minute. “Most dangerous piece of legislation ever” really does suggest that it’s worse than, say, the Fugitive Slave Act. On the other hand, how many members of the House of Representatives do you hear throw around the word “existential?” So there’s that.

Yeah Gail it is worse but in different ways and will affect a far broader swath of the populace. (Who is checking the fucking resumes of columnists at the times that idiots like Gail Collins can get so many column inches?)

“Congressmen, this is about shutting down Obamacare,” wrote Erick Erickson in the influential blog RedState. “Democrats keep talking about our refusal to compromise. They don’t realize our compromise is defunding Obamacare. ... Our endgame is to leave the whole thing shut down until the President defunds Obamacare. And if he does not defund Obamacare, we leave the whole thing shut down.”

60% of the country hates this thing like fire already and they haven't felt it's effects..... because apparently you can't actually sign up for it if the reports are to be believed.....if Obama had a brain in his head he would give the Republicans the year delay that they want and see if the bugs can be worked out. It would be a win/win. His program would have a far better chance of not crashing and burning and "Orange Julius" could do his victory dance and save some face as well. Plus if it still a shit program he has a year less to listen to the griping about it while he remains in office.


Sorry George....I got a little "potty mouth" in my last posting.....something about New York Times columnists I guess.

I'll work on it.

Paul Emery

Fish wrides

"60% of the country hates this thing like fire already"

That includes people like myself who want single payer or other national care options. You're misleading readers to suggest that they are all against it for the same reasons you are.

In fact don't chest thump till you read this CNN Poll that shows majority support when you combine supporters (49-39 %) of Obamacare and those like myself who believe it doesn't go far enough.

CNN/ORC Poll. Sept. 27-29, 2013. N=803 adults nationwide. Margin of error ± 3.5.


"60% of the country hates this thing like fire already"...

No chest thumping Paul. People don't like it. Do I think that if they get the IT issues worked out people might like it better....maybe but I wouldn't bet on it!

And you can want all the medicare you want's in trouble too!

Paul Emery


People obviously want some kind of national health care system. Problem is the Repubs offer no alternatives except individual reforms that stand no chance of being enacted. Remember, the Pubsters ran a Presidential candidate that said we have no problem because the poor can always go to the ER. That's not a plan and one of the reasons he lost.


Remember, the Pubsters ran a Presidential candidate that said we have no problem because the poor can always go to the ER. That's not a plan and one of the reasons he lost.

The ER was an unpleasant but semi-viable method of delivering health care to those without. The indigent could stagger in, be helped and then skip out on their bills. The hospitals didn't care they just pushed the costs off onto those with insurance much like Obamacare will do in a somewhat more formalized manner. Everything proposed by either side relies on shifting cost from those who won't consume services to those who must consume services. If those in question had something that required more than a simple ER visit....well they were probably screwed but if anyone here thinks that Obamacare is going to usher in an era of unlimited medical services they're in for a real disappointment. Then again what the hell do I know it might be all flowers and rainbows in Obamacare world.

Do I think that the republicans have anything better....nope. Do I think that Obamacare will flop.....yep! Do I think that your proposal to just universalize medicare will might.... briefly but everything I've seen regarding medicare shows that it eventually craters in as well.

Paul Emery


Well spoken. Thanks for the thoughtful discussion. I know too many people who are just a minor emergency from Bankruptcy to take this lightly. In Denmark everybody pays into healthcare as part of their tax bill, something that some Americans want to ignore if they're young and healthy.

All for now. I'm off to a gig.


Have a good gig Paul!

George Rebane

ToddJ 1151am - Agreed. But I'm not sure that such a hew and cry would help from the conservative side. It took a while for The Union to declare its true colors, but declared they have. Perhaps a better campaign would be one directed at Swift Communications such as their 'Contact Us' page on


I do know of one person, a Conservative journalist, who the local fish wrap
offered a "job" too. ( That's what he tells me. I have yet to catch him fibbing.) He declined said offer. He didn't believe his works would even see the light of day with this new "management".
From what I hear, Akerman is doing great. Hat's off to him for getting, while the getting was good.
Case in point of just how The Union is up on things, more than once has it stated that the "new" mining operation in French Corral was up and running
in various articles over the Summer. The truth is,, they haven't even finished setting up the plant. So, No.. They are not up and running, much to my dismay.

Ca. was supposed to be the poster boy for everything great about "O" care.
Ca. was to be the shining success on opening day.... Uh,,, non managed to sign up...
Now we have the Rubik's Cube of government healthcare. They just added an extra row of blocks on "this" one.
Now be honest... How many heaved that muti colored pain in the rear out the window after endless attempts to solve the thing?

Ca. is having a slight lull in the storm. Things will get much worse before any chance of getting better.


Well. The VETS retook another government " war prize"
This time it is the Iwo Jima monument... So.. VETS 2!!(maybe more) "O" and Co.,,, 0....


According to the gang over at Sierra Foothill Report, The Union is a right wing rag. Looks like we are back to where everyone is mad at us. In reality, the paper covers a variety of opinions from the community. That's the way it's supposed to be.


Here is another example of the draconian government of the Obama Admin.
A while back they stuck it to MJ growers and "pharmacies".
(Seizing assists, but not prosecuting.)
They have now taken it a step further. This should make everyone's blood boil.
(Institute of justice)


Checking the RudeWhineFarts today after RL's mention, it looks like Jeff Ackerman himself kicked the hornet's nest. A nice touch.

Crabb's toon in The Union today was as evenhanded as the Editorial staff wasn't. It takes two to tango, and "I won't negotiate" is a horrible negotiation stance, unless you really don't have to negotiate. We shall see.

Russ Steele

Here are Ackerman's comments:

Jeff Ackerman, on October 4, 2013 at 8:19 pm said:
Jeff. I see where you continue your bloviated and personal attacks on The Union and its employees. I was hoping you would have found your own path by now, but…you know what they say about hope. The Union’s “parent company” consists of a lot of hard-working, successful and dedicated professionals. Many of them know just as much as you do about the business, as surprising as that might sound to someone who obviously suffers from narcissism (don’t they make pills for that?). Instead of focusing on what The Union and its “parent company” aren’t doing, why not focus on what you can do to “fill the gap,” so to speak? You sound like a bitter, round man who can’t get over the fact that you once worked for The Union and its “parent company,” protecting that same strategy that you now attack.
Either way, no matter to me. You are like a parasite screaming for attention, playing to an audience of like-minded minions.
Hopefully you are finding time to get out of your little cyber cave from time to time. Last I checked you could use the exercise.

George Rebane

RussS 618pm - Thanks for sharing that with RR readers. I have fond memories of Jeff Ackerman.


Russ, those comments were directed at Pelline?

Michael Anderson

Fish wrote: "The TEAM DEM problem at that point is that now there is no one to blame!"

Which is fantastic! How GREAT is this?!? If they fail, they will fail spectacularly. And if they are successful, their reward will not have to be shared with the other party.

I know Ryan & Earl like the gridlock thing, and I certainly see how they would feel that way since I appreciate certain aspects of gridlock myself. But I also like periodic spurts of effective governance, like when Kennedy/LBJ and Congress pushed the country forward with civil rights legislation, or when we went to the moon, or when the railroads were built. We haven't done anything like that for a very long time, and it doesn't feel good.

Fish, regarding your rant on Gail Collins, that was a really good rant. No need to apologize for the cussing, that was your obvious passion coming out and I applaud you for it. I loved the Pauline Kael reference, she was amazing, even if Clint Eastwood didn't think so. But on to the stupid Cruz strategy, where he is apparently running for president in 2016 and screwing the pooch for everyone else, I offer this:

"'It's as if House Republicans are playing suicide bomber with the U.S. economy,' the CEO of a furniture company in Chattanooga, Tenn., is quoted saying. 'As a businessman, it defies all reason and logic.'"


Michael Anderson

More comedy from the Grey Lady. She is better than The Roxy on Sunset Strip lately:

"The boy looks alarmed. 'A Canadian destroyed the world, Papa?'"


Since when is a furniture maker in Chattanooga a reliable source of macroeconomic and political information?

It takes two to tango and three to waltz; pressure the Prez and Senate to come to the negotiation table. That's how the system is supposed to work.

Bill Tozer

My, my, where to begin? Think I will take a stab at update 20/05/13 and finish with "Obama wrecks work ethic".

Concerning Dr. Rebane's update, we blabber endlessly about the Republican strategy and tactics in this current Washingtonian thang, but not Obama's strategy. We touch on Mr. Prez's tactics, but not his strategy.
Here is our Great Leader of the Free World's long term strategy which makes his tactics dovetail perfectly. Mr. Obama needs to paint the Republicans in Congress as the wretched horrible creatures from the Black Lagoon. He must go out there day after day to destroy these radical Teas Party types specially and the Congressional Republicans in general. It is such a well packaged goal that it might work.
It totally takes the eyes off him and the economy, deficit, unemployment numbers, his siding 100% with the Muslim Brotherhood, Obamacare, Gitmo, IRS scandals, Benghazi, and most importantly, the 2014 elections. For Obama's legacy and next 2 1/2 years, he must have the House back in his hip pocket to do his bidding. Otherwise, he will just be the lame duck he already has proven to be.
Its those sub human radical extremists Ted Cruz types that have declared Jihad on the American people!! Its the Paul Ryan types that hate you and want to snatch food stamps out of the mouths of obese children. All that is missing is updated videos of Paul Ryan tossing Granny out the cargo door of a airplane in flight with sinister laugh complete with 100 dollar bills falling out of his stuffed pockets. Its the Chicago Way.

Now, short and sweet. Obama wrecks work ethic:

Michael Anderson

Greg wrote: "...pressure the Prez and Senate to come to the negotiation table."

What negotiations? This whole shutdown was set up as a way to defund the PPACA. The Republicans in the House and Senate framed it that way. So the walkback is bullshit. They lost. As you've duly noted, no budgets have been passed for quite some time. Nothing but CRs as far as the eye can see.

The Republicans tried a quick e4 f6 d4 g5 Qh5#, but it didn't work out. They lost their Queen. So now what?

The only option is for them is to get something really silly as their consolation prize, and then we go back to business as usual, which means no budget. In the meantime, Pelosi has been given super-natural powers and she is wooing prominent Republicans to build a coalition that will destroy the Tea-hadists.

Great political television, and I can't wait until next season's episodes.

BTW, I can't decide if I want Tozer or fish to be my new BFF. Choices, choices...

Bill Tozer

Mr. Anderson, pick me, pick me! I would love to be your friend. Good friends share just about everything. Will you let me pull your finger? Say yes, yes, yes. I will even show you how to wear a thong. The secret is to wear it backwards and nothing plops out the sides. And color doesn't matter. Comfort rules the day.

Now, back to the real gist of Dr. Rebane's topic, aka the permanent class divide and systematic unemployment. I am exempted cause from class divide cause me ain't got no class. A long read, but not too many big words.

Russ Steele

Billy T

California is not the only state developing a feudal economy. Here is an analysis by the Mercatus Center on the growing divide in the Virginia economy:

Virginia has weathered the labor market turmoil of the past five years much better than other states have. Its mid-year unemployment rate was 5.5 percent, compared to 7.6 percent nationally. But there are two distinct labor markets in Virginia — (1) persons employed directly or indirectly by the public sector, and (2) Virginia’s “real” private sector. While the former — highly concentrated in the suburbs of D.C. — prospered during the Great Recession and continues to flourish, the latter is struggling.

In a recent study published Monday by the Mercatus Center at George Mason University, we estimate that about 30 percent of Virginia’s workforce is employed by government either directly or through federal contracts, compared to about 20 percent nationwide. This gap exists largely because about 10 percent of Virginia’s workforce holds private-sector jobs financed by federal contracts, compared to just 3 percent nationwide.

Times have been good for Virginia’s government-financed labor market. Direct government employment is 4 percent higher than it was before the recession, and annual federal contract expenditures in Virginia have increased 18 percent from pre-recession levels.

More on the issue is here:

Ryan Mount

Michael 09:29 PM >I know Ryan & Earl like the gridlock thing.

"Like" isn't really the right word in so far government needs to "work" eventually. I "like" insofar it is proof that the system is working as designed. Gridlock is a appropriate(that's the correct word) part of the process and is built into our Constitution for good reason as a form of high school civics checks and balances. Should it go on forever? What reasonable person would want that?

This idea purveyed by the media that our system is dysfunctional is idiotic sensationalism to frighten people, and in my not so humble opinion, a form of obedient regime propaganda.

The current gridlock demonstrates that our system is solid and strong and we won't slip into civil war. But you wouldn't get that from the media because that doesn't sell Glade plugins, insurance and new automobiles.


"What negotiations? This whole shutdown was set up as a way to defund the PPACA. The Republicans in the House and Senate framed it that way. So the walkback is bullshit. They lost."

Negotiations is how you go from point a to point b. Boehner self negotiated from defunding to a delay, and with today's hardening, has said it will take a "negotiation" (look it up mike if it's one of those big words you don't understand) to move forward.

That means Obama will have to walk back from his declaration that he will not negotiate.


"This idea purveyed by the media that our system is dysfunctional is idiotic sensationalism to frighten people, and in my not so humble opinion, a form of obedient regime propaganda."

Ryan has it completely correct.

Bill Tozer

Shut down? There ain't no stinking shutdown!

So, what are they going to do next? Why, hang draperies over Mount Rushmore of course.

Michael Anderson

Greg, why should Obama negotiate with terrorists? Let 'em rot in hell.

If the polling starts to suggest movement in favor of the Republicans then maybe the Democrats will need to adjust their strategy. But why make a change when your opponent is being slaughtered in the abattoir of public opinion?

Crush 'em. Call it the Road Kill Strategem.

George Rebane

Dear Readers, I invite your kind attention to the 6oct13 update.

Bill Tozer

Thank you Dr. Rebane. Mr. Steele is one sharp cookie. Some of the stuff Mr. Steele and you converse about on posts is out of my league concerning critical thinking skills. My toolbox just is not big enough.

Concerning the theme of shut down (caused by direct opposition to the ACA), this link got me thinking. Its semi-related to the recent recalls in Colorada because of gun control legislation.

My readings of scores of articles AFTER the special election recalls in CO draw close parallels to Obamacare. The voters of CO were more livid about the process than the actual legislation. Even voters who normally were not impassioned about the recall or the gun control bills became all riled up when learning of the process. The process left an angry constituency feeling they were shut out, not heard, the game was rigged and the die was cast from the get-go.

The Committee in Co heard plenty of witnesses supporting the legislation. 20 police chiefs lined up to appear in opposition before the committee opposing the law and to explain from their perspective why the law would be ineffectual or bad. 20. Only one was allowed to speak. Then the debate was cut off and the committee pushed it through rejecting an open hearing and fair process.

I still an peeved at the process of Obamacare passing. Sure, politics is hardball and should be. Its just the way the Dems did not have the votes to pass Obamacare, so they found obscure rules that were written for totally different purposes and usage.. 51 votes instead of 60 in the Senate. Deemed approved by the House? Yeah, my side lost, but it was like losing a game when the other side cheated and the ref's kids were playing for the opposition. My side did not lose fair and square. No way no how could the Dems garnish 60 votes in the Senate. That's the rub. Reminisce of the USA Men's Basketball team losing to The USSR in 1972 Olympics. There are no silver medals in politics. But I was proud the USA Basketball team refused the silver medal. Another footnote in the annuals of history.

Michael Anderson

Bill Tozer, I feel your pain. That was indeed some dirty, badass, mo-fo, politics. But then Chief Justice Roberts affirmed it. So, we are on to another day.

Bill, are you a baseball player? Baseball is also a nasty game. It's all about losing. If you can lose gracefully, especially in the face of gross unfairness, you will surely win in the end.

That is how the San Francisco Giants won two World Series in 3 years. Losing a game here or there, or getting a bunch of bad calls in a row, just didn't matter to them.

When I coach my kids, on the first day this is what I tell them. "Boys, there is no other sport on planet earth where learning how to lose is so paramount. Don't get lost in the quicksand when things go south. Every play counts. If you strike out, get a hit next time. If you bobble a routine grounder to second base, make the play correctly when your get it again, which is usually going to be at the opponents' very next at-bat. As in life, if you get wrapped around the axle, you will go nowhere."

In order to get rid of PPACA, the Republicans need to get elected in numbers that meet the criteria. It's really pretty simple.

Michael Anderson

George, re. your 5oct13 update --

I'm trying to understand your support for the 63 Republican House members [these are the politicians in safe districts with nothing to lose (and everything to gain) by shutting down the federal government] who started this whole thing by refusing to support a CR unless the PPACA was defunded. You do support what they did, am I correct?

So, what is it that they were really doing? Let's make a list, and as for a handy identifier, let's call them the Sixty-Three:

1. The Sixty-Three knew that Boehner was between a rock and a hard spot, because if he had allowed a CR vote on the floor early on--and moderate Republicans joined with Democrats to pass it--he could possibly have lost his Speakership. This has been an unfortunate exercise of watching John Boehner's id and super-ego do battle in a public forum. But Boehner's alleged powerlessness is a myth, and now that he is doing the walk-back, his Speakership is safe. The end game is all about how much he gets, and when does he do it. A significant sidebar will be how he handles the debt ceiling--my money is on him capitulating, forcing the House to vote to increase the cap.

2. This battle is mostly about the mid-terms in 2014. The Sixty-Three, an extreme wing of the Republican Party, made a calculated decision to hold the CR hostage, and they lost. Everything from here on is just collateral damage, cleanup, and trying to save face. The sooner the Republican Party passes a clean CR (and makes the debt ceiling debate disappear), the better they will do in 2014 in the few Congressional elections that are in contention. Here are some good data on that upcoming configuration:

3. This battle could also (possibly) be about the breaking apart of the Republican Party. As a long-time registered Republican, and a member of the moderate wing (I will vote for Maldonado over Brown in the CA gov. race), I have been long dismayed at the extremism displayed by the Tea Party and other groups who pretend to hold the US Constitution dear, but are really nothing more than bullies, racists, fascists, ignoramuses, and malcontents who have created a huge fracture in the Two Party System (maybe a good thing?). The last time I was a registered Democrat was in 1996, and I have been either DTS, Libertarian, Green, or Republican ever since. The Sixty-Three are hastening the demise of the Republican Party; do you support that, George?

4. All eyes are on Ryan. He is quiet, but he still has Boehner's ear and is secretly working on a deal that will help the Republican Party save face, in what was a HUGE miscalculation.

So again George, why should Obama negotiate? That last time he did that, S&P handed him a shit sandwich. So, no negotiation. Not up for discussion.

I'll leave you with some final links and comments:

"Two dozen of these Republicans — including Reps. Charlie Dent (Pa.) and Peter King (N.Y.) — have pressed Boehner to quickly end the shutdown and assure them that the government wouldn’t default. They’re rattled by the House GOP’s rightward drift, and they’re tired of Cruz and his House compatriots embracing a standoff that has no end in sight. Dent is working with House Democrats to pass legislation that would reopen the government and repeal the medical-device tax, a plan with bipartisan support. King, perhaps the most prominent in the centrist caucus, tells me he expects most Republicans to eventually come his way.
Ultimately, a large group of rank-and-file Republicans wants the mess to end. They may not have the moxie to outmaneuver House conservatives, but they certainly have the numbers."

These are all just classic chess discussions. "If you know that your opponent is going to mirror every single move you do, then start with a King's pawn opening." My guess is that the Sixty-Three don't have access to Google for some bizarre reason.

Bill Tozer

Mr.Anderson. Thanks for getting me grounded. I went off the reservation while digging through past grievances on the link I posted.

Though not much of a sports fan (anymore),albeit I was a rabid fan in periods of my life. I have attended some baseball Cathedrals. The first game I ever saw in person was the Cardinals vs the Dodgers. It ended 1-0 Cards and I was disappointed. Looking back, Bob Gibson was pitching for the Cards during his consecutive scoreless inning record. The losing Dodger pitcher was Don Drysdale who later went on to break Bob Gibson's consecutive scoreless inning record.

"If you know that your opponent is going to mirror every single move you do, then start with a King's pawn opening." My guess is that the Sixty-Three don't have access to Google for some bizarre reason."

Now, that is funny. Mr. King always calls 'em as he sees 'em.

Todd Juvinall

The 63 are from sefa districts? My understanding is they beat out mostly democrats in their districts which says to me it was a turnout/ideological vote for these Congressmen and women. Besides, MA is always whining about booting the old out and bringing in new and nothing could be newer than a bunch of people rejecting the status quo of DC. MA has too much estrogen in his blood stream.

I don't recall ever seeing MA and his ilk saying anything about the "safe" democrat districts. Look at Pelosi, the reason she was made speaker was because of the fact she has 80-90 percent democrat in her district (Willie Brown is our state example). Same for the Black Caucus members. How about Charlie Rangel MA? He was caught cheating yet his district voters put his ass back in. Or Alcee Hastings? You libs are total hypocrites.

George Rebane

MichaelA 1136pm - Thank you for that well-considered comment.

I am on record here stating that the Republicans' chances for defunding Obamacare are nil; it was made by the TP faction to fulfill campaign promises. It served as an opening round. The President's refusal to negotiate at all is specious, made more so by his lying to the sheeple that there is no precedent for it.

I reported on the McClintoc-Toomey bill that would have sidestepped all this default and defunding chazerai. This bill was again included in the House response as recently as a week ago. The Dems refuse to even consider it. I would invite you to do opine on it.

The ones who have most to gain from the national pain are the President and the Dems, and it explains away why they want to keep it going ad nauseam. ACA is a single party abomination that was passed in the middle of the night for reasons other than stated. All other reasonable steps to 'fix' healthcare were ignored and/or sidestepped on the way to socialism. Now it must be brought to the cash flow stage wherein the sheeple are known to behave reliably and predictably when offered another wealth transfer commons.

The final argument for the mess is still explained away by Occam's dictum - Obama sees the American presidency as a stepping stone to higher office, and to achieve that objective he must first deliver the United States as a compliant and contrite peer member of the 'world community'. That requires our country to be economically weakened and militarily castrated. He is well on his way to realizing these objectives.

Bill Tozer

Mr. Juvinall. Good morning sir. I took Mr. Anderson's words to heart. I don't want to be too much of a hypocrite (we all are hypocrites if we are human), nor do I enjoy eating my own words. But, its better than eating squirmy wormies cause nobody likes me, everybody hates me.

We lost. My own words would be to suck it up and take it like a man. Some of us are more gracious than others in this realm of losing.

Just like I tell my Native American brethren. They are big, we are small. They won, we lost. Get over it. Sure, Custer plenty blew Big Horn, but is that all there is to a fire?

Resentments and grievance are a killer to one's well being. Doesn't mean we all collapse into fetal positions. Just means time to regroup.

"He who fights and runs away will live to fight another day." Think that is a French quote.

Just look at our small neck of the woods on the planet known to some as Earth. Some folks in these parts are still upset that some of their forefathers got ate up by their neighbors' forefathers up on Donner Pass. Some folks just can't take a joke.

The solution is simple. Cream the libs next election cycle. Simple but not easy.

We can bury the hatchet, but.....
"Nobody ever forgets where he buried the hatchet."

My, its a lovely day outside. Going to find a feather to keep my wig warm.


The safest seat in the House belongs to Nancy Pelosi, which made her singularly qualified in pushing through Obamacare even though it should be called Pelosicare... she never had to learn to talk to anyone besides other Democrats in her entire political career.

No, Obamacare will be fought bitterly; Moynihan was right: sweeping legislation needs to win by bipartisan 70/30 margins, not 51/49 squeakers.

“The long-term future of bills that have absolutely no minority support and are not popular when passed is not good... This law is vulnerable not just for this week, but for the 2014 elections, and if not then, for whenever the minority party does become the majority.”

A difference between baseball and politics is the inning, not to mention the game, can always be played over again. If you want to be able to bask in the glory of a win, stay with baseball.


The chickens are coming home to roost; the 2014 campaign commercials are being written...

""I was laughing at Boehner -- until the mail came today," Waschura said, referring to House Speaker John Boehner, who is leading the Republican charge to defund Obamacare.

"I really don't like the Republican tactics, but at least now I can understand why they are so pissed about this. When you take $10,000 out of my family's pocket each year, that's otherwise disposable income or retirement savings that will not be going into our local economy."


Most of the press I see isn't breaking one way or the other...especially when there are delicious ironies like shutting down the "Amber Alert" website while keeping Michelle Obama's "Drink Water" website up and running.

Maybe they're both the "Stupid Party"?

Todd Juvinall

BillT, GregG and fish, you guys are great. When I read the left's crapola as spewed by MichaelA and the Emery's, I can rest assured you will set them straight and with humor. As a human (I think) who has been an elected person as well as a leader trying to herd cats here in Nevada County for 30 years, I can say you three have the pulse of reality and are a whole lot smarter than these resident liberals.

There is a little debate going on over at RL's and the same libs are spewing their misinformation there regarding the Tea Party. But no amount of proof or facts can change their thinking. They are truly blockheads.

Paul Emery

Just adding to the compost here. Obama has gained 10% in the Fox approval poll since the current silliness in Washington began. It's pretty much a freefall and the Pubsters will be looking for a neck soon as '14 approaches.


-Approve - Disapprove - Unsure

10/1-2/13 (45) (49) (6)

9/6-8/13 (40) (54) (6)

Not sure I understand your interpretation of the numbers Paul? 5% improvement in the Approval rating with an accompanying 5% decrease in the Disapproval. Do you get to add the two changes?

Paul Emery

10% difference in approval vs disapproval

here it is:

Fox R 45 49 - 4 10/1-2/13

Fox RV 40 54 - 14 9/6-8/13

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