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08 January 2014

Comments

Paul Emery

Rebane writes

" Will we as an electorate have learned from our devastating mistake in 2012?"

Well George I didn't vote for Obama this time around because of his poor performance in his first term. At least I was able to change directions which is something those who voted for voted for Bush's second term were unable to do.

Russ Steele

I want to share an experience that I think is an ObamaCare impact.
Our dog Harper has glaucoma and requires daily pills and eyedrops. When
we learned about the problem in September of 2012 the cost of 90 pills
was $67.00, six months later the same pills were $105 for 90 pills.
The last quote we got from Costco was $275.75 for 90 pills. In 18
months the price of 90 pills went from $67.00 to $275.75. We went pill
on the phone and found the same pills at CVS for $198 for 90 pills. So,
the difference is really $67 to $198, or about a 3 times increase in 18 months.
The eye drop prices have increased by a similar factor, though not quite
as much.

These pills have been around for a while, the development cost should
have been recovered some time ago. Why the progressive increase in
price? Increasing administrative costs due to ObamaCare? Big Pharma
getting all they can before being screwed by ObamaCare? Any good
ideas?

George Rebane

Reading the 2004 Democratic platform is an education in what they perceived as Bush2's "poor performance", quite different from today's Monday morning quarterbacking. Also in the first pages we note that Bush2 is dunned for going it alone (when he had almost 20 nations supporting America) in Iraq, and then not acting until he got "the green light" from across the sea. In any event, the 'then' of the Left was quite different from how it has been redressed today.
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=29613

Paul Emery

But George the results were an unfunded war that lasted nearly 10 years that cost at least 2 Trillion $ 5000 American lives for what purpose, untold injured Americans, thousands of innocent civilian casualties to protect us from WMD's that never existed. The bottom line is that you deemed Bush fit for reelection and cast your vote accordingly. Obama did not pass my muster and I went elsewhere.

Joe Koyote

How about Big Pharma just being greedy? Or what about Blue Shield who has jacked prices up, based on healthcare cost increase projections, by almost 23% in the last year, despite, as you say, near flat (around 4% for the last 4 years) healthcare cost inflation. The CA Insurance commissioner, who has no power to do anything about it, says Blue Shield's justification for the rate increase was based on highly inflated figures. Also what role does the non-negotiable Medicare prescription drug pricing structure have to do with rising drug costs? Obamacare, like all things government, seems to be just too easy of a target to foist all the blame on, I think Big Healthcare is using that to their advantage as they can redirect the blame and public outrage, away from themselves as they continue to fleece the public.

Russ Steele

Paul,

You mean the missing "never existed" WMDs that were transferee to Syria and are now being removed and destroyed. Only the lefty Monday morning quarterbacks know there were no WMDs after the war was over. Congress and NATO thought there were and Saddam bragged to the world that he had them. And, we observed on satellite convoys of truck gong into Syria from Iraq restricted areas. What were those trucks carrying potatoes?

Paul Emery

Russ

Show me one piece of credible evidence to back your 2:46 claim. Bush was responsible for the false intelligence because it was under his watch. The point I am making is that both Bush and Obama are failed Presidents but at least I had the courage to vote elsewhere. There was plenty of info that Bush was a bad President when he ran for re-election yet he was supported for a second term by most that subscribe to this blog.

George Rebane

PaulE 225pm - without evaluating your acknowledged Monday morning claims, my point about what the Dems found bad about Bush2 in 2004 stands. It is on that and other information available at the time that people in 2004 made their decisions on for whom to vote. And you are beyond belief to claim that Bush2 was responsible for the bad intelligence machinery that had been implemented during the previous 8 years under Clinton, and brought to bear on an historic attack that occurred less than 8 months into Bush2's administration.

JoeK 241pm - If what you claim about insurance companies is true, then such behavior can only occur in a government mangled market. In a more free market, profits not justified by attendant risk are quickly pared by competitors who offer the same or better products at lower costs. (Look around you, in this proposition is written the commercial history of the US.) And Obamacare is the biggest insurance market mangler of them all.

The real truth of you claims will be seen in the stock price behavior of the accused big pharma companies. Excess profits will make the price of their shares fly to the moon, and such flights are nowhere in evidence. This point has been repeatedly made on RR and repeatedly responded to by the Corps of Crickets.

Paul Emery

George

The invasion of Iraq was March 19 2003, three years into Bush's first term not 8 months as you refer to above. You can't blame Clinton on that one. Are you claiming that Bush had no responsibility for the intelligence sources that led to war three years after becoming President?

Joe Koyote

" If what you claim about insurance companies is true, then such behavior can only occur in a government mangled market." --thanks for making my point about blaming government.

Since the beginning of Medicare part D in 2005, net income of the top 11 pharmaceutical companies combined went from around $57B to $83B. During that same time period those 11 companies pocketed $711B. Big Pharma averaged a 16% return versus 4% for most other industries. Call it what you want.

Ben Emery

George,
08 January 2014 at 02:53 PM
"And you are beyond belief to claim that Bush2 was responsible for the bad intelligence machinery that had been implemented during the previous 8 years under Clinton, and brought to bear on an historic attack that occurred less than 8 months into Bush2's administration."

George W Bush or should I say the Dick Cheney administration pick and chose whatever intelligence that would allow them to proceed with their plans of invading Iraq. Those plans were in place long before 2001 and in March 2001 Dick Cheney Energy Task force was dividing up Iraqi oil fields.

Judicial Watch
http://www.judicialwatch.org/cases/67/factsheet.htm

Cheney Energy Task Force Documents Feature Map of Iraqi Oil Fields
http://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/cheney-energy-task-force-documents-feature-map-of-iraqi-oilfields/

In this link Cheney and staff are pressuring CIA for more invasion friendly evidence.

The spies who pushed for war
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/jul/17/iraq.usa
"The president's most trusted adviser, Mr Cheney, was at the shadow network's sharp end. He made several trips to the CIA in Langley, Virginia, to demand a more "forward-leaning" interpretation of the threat posed by Saddam. When he was not there to make his influence felt, his chief of staff, Lewis "Scooter" Libby, was. Such hands-on involvement in the processing of intelligence data was unprecedented for a vice-president in recent times, and it put pressure on CIA officials to come up with the appropriate results."

George Rebane

PaulE 350pm - You've led us to the most circled barn in these pages. Answers in the foregoing.

Paul Emery

George

The crack in your cathedral ls that you are a habitual Republican and refuse to look at the actions of Republicans with the same critique you use for Democrats, hence Obama bad, Bush good. You tout third parties but won't leave the reservation when your vote is on the line.

I suggest a casual look at Senator Bob Grahams book "Intelligence Matters: The CIA, the FBI, Saudi Arabia, and the Failure of America's War on Terror?" to begin to appreciate the connection between the House of Saud and the House of Bush. According to Graham ,members of the Saudi government and royal family were directly connected to inspiring, funding, and helping support the organization of certain 9/11 conspirators.

I suggest checking this out

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=11120


Bill Tozer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfi4s8cjLFI

Ryan Mount

"Good teacher. He seems to care."

The guy who killed [murdered, IMO] Kinison got off with a slap on the wrist. He got probation and community service. If you're gonna kill someone, make sure you use a car.

Joe Koyote

George W Bush or should I say the Dick Cheney administration pick and chose whatever intelligence that would allow them to proceed with their plans of invading Iraq." Indeed!! In his book "Against All Enemies" former terrorism czar for Clinton and Bush2, Richard Clarke documents how in the early hours and days after 911, knowing full well that AlQaeda was responsible, Bush and Co. repeatedly sought to blame Iraq so as to open the door for invasion. It was all about the oil. Thanks george and dick for putting your personal fortunes before the country you were appointed to govern.

Ben Emery

George,
The reason the trail around the Iraq Invasion barn is so worn is due to the lack of accountability on your part. We were lied and forced into an invasion and occupation not by a Republican administration but by a group of sick individuals who identify themselves politically as Republican. What the last 13 years have proven more than any other time in my adult life is when it comes to partisanship Americans have very selective principles and convictions. I have never seen the Democrats so united against an administration. Most of them have gone silent with the Obama administration. Obama has continued most of the horrible foreign BushII era policies in practice and in spirit. I have lost large amount of respect for those who I marched with during the BushII era but who are now silent. One of the reasons why I stopped supporting the Democratic Party all together and why I constantly challenge Democrats on their positions. It has never been more evident we have a one party government that has a slight divide on social issues.

"A time comes when silence is betrayal."
Martin Luther King Jr.

"... I knew that I could never again raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed in the ghettos without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today -- my own government. For the sake of those boys, for the sake of this government, for the sake of hundreds of thousands trembling under our violence, I cannot be silent."
Martin Luther King Jr.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0115-13.htm

Paul Emery

Well spoken Ben. If we could unite forces against the Republicrats but with such blind loyalty as exhibited by many on this blog to the failures of the past we can only dream. The manipulation of information to create a cause for war in Iraq is high treason and should be treated as such.

fish

Well spoken Ben. If we could unite forces against the Republicrats but with such blind loyalty as exhibited by many on this blog to the failures of the past we can only dream. The manipulation of information to create a cause for war in Iraq is high treason and should be treated as such.

You guys won't let go of the welfare state so it seems that you've agreed to your half of the "Welfare/Warfare State" Grand Bargain...get back to me when you're ready to negotiate.

George Rebane

re BenE's 1056am - And that assessment of "the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today" for "the oppressed in the ghettos" came before the Great Society programs really kicked in. But MLK's equally damning the US in its worldwide role is blatantly false given the millions upon tens of millions of people who perished under communist regimes during that same epoch.

Ben Emery

George,
Can we drop the right vs left republican vs democrat rhetoric. Governments of communism have proven to be a breeding ground for tyranny as has fascism/corporatism.

What we are really talking about is a form of government that regulates economic markets that benefits the most people of society/ nation. I can point to democratic socialism as a good example of a form of government that works well for a vast majority of the people who live within the system, can you do the same?

the key is- works well for a vast majority of the people

Ben Emery

Fish,
"You guys won't let go of the welfare state so it seems that you've agreed to your half of the "Welfare/Warfare State" Grand Bargain...get back to me when you're ready to negotiate."

Nothing to negotiate. Have a government that represents the interests of the human being "persons" by putting up walls against corruption. If we do this the size and scope of government shrinks to where it is workable and we are able to hold those who sit at seats of power accountable. It is really is that simple but we need to be vigilant against corruption and make it so unappealing that very few will attempt to rig the system.

George Rebane

BenE 139pm - No we can't drop the rhetoric that compares collectivist forms of governance with minimally regulated capitalistic forms - Right and Left are merely convenient labels to summarize longer descriptions for such forms. More here -
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2012/09/what-makes-a-good-community.html
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2013/02/ideologies-and-governance-a-structured-look.html

Your description of "fascism/corporatism" in these pages has been nothing but another form of collectivism operating under the government's gun. It has nothing to do with the minimally regulated capitalism of those who claim the conservetarian mantle (or its conservative/libertarian derivatives).

Progress in the debate is stunted by ideologies not nuanced enough to recognize the difference. The evidence against central planning and control is legion, as is sparse the evidence against governances that allow freer markets, individual enterprise, and governments of lesser scope. The creation of wealth and betterment of all lives since the Renaissance has ALL been due to governments permitting more individual freedoms, not less.

I leave you with the question, 'Why are Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, the poster children of 'democratic socialism', continuing to turn away from their formerly collectivist ideals. Whenever people under central planners have approached the break point (i.e. run out of other people's money), for some reason their governors have always reduced taxes and regulations to provide the needed relief - why is that? why haven't they doubled down on all that good socialism and increased taxes and the regulatory burden?

Bill Tozer

Nothing to negotiate until you agree with the Emery Twins. If only opposing views were not so darn stubborn
and if only Dr. George would capitulate to the Dynamic Duo's world view, then life would be grand indeed. Then we can all be pals and yuck it up and sing Don Ho songs on the uke.

So, let me get this straight. Iraq=bad juju. Afganistan=good juju. Simple enough.

The problem with capitalism and our economic system is there is not enough capitalism. Capitalism takes a hit, people get light in the wallet. Simple enough again. I think I am getting the hang of this. Its all good juju.

Now its time to get together and get along and head on out to the next barn burning barn raising barn circling. Is it circling the wagon round the barn or circling the barn around the wagon. Don't matter, we are all buddies now...er...just as soon as Dr. Rebane cries "Uncle!" and dons a colorful Che Guevara headband. Until then, head em' up, move em' out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSHr4ubuD64

fish

Nothing to negotiate. Have a government that represents the interests of the human being "persons" by putting up walls against corruption. If we do this the size and scope of government shrinks to where it is workable and we are able to hold those who sit at seats of power accountable. It is really is that simple but we need to be vigilant against corruption and make it so unappealing that very few will attempt to rig the system.


More empty sloganeering from Ben Emery.........I for one am shocked!

Ben Emery

Must be a coincidence that the second group of people were more hostile towards the thieves.

What Would You Do? Bike Theft (White Guy, Black Guy, Pretty Girl)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge7i60GuNRg#t=203

Bill Tozer

"George,
Can we drop the right vs left republican vs democrat rhetoric. Governments of communism have proven to be a breeding ground for tyranny as has fascism/corporatism."

Ah, the cry from the prophet in the wildness. Brother Ben, It is difficult to drop the left/right rhetoric. Change takes time. On a personal note, is not easy conversing with Chicoms like you, but I will try to oblige you and your fellow pinkos that are hell bent on shredding the Constitution of the United States of America.

I am aware that certain folks do not like to be pigeon holed with names like liberal/progressive/socialists/commie bastards, but no other label seems apt or captures the true essence of the rancid stink. Thus I simply use the benign and non offensive term libholes when extending the hand of friendship to my misguided lefty control freaks. Like the saying from the 90's, Men are from Mars, and Libholes are from some other planet.

https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1545789_10151864231305911_294604993_n.jpg

https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1393894_10151693265660911_1316537254_n.jpg

https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1476640_10151764446890911_1041799053_n.png

https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/1560768_10151866292500911_246996076_n.jpg

Love and butterfly kisses, your buddy Bill :)

MikeL

Ben,
As a bike theft and a oppressed white guy I would appreciate you not promoting that video. I make a very comfortable living and recently hired three pretty blond white girls to cut to the locks off of chained and abandoned bicycles in order to expand my business. Just so you don't get your panties in a wad, I do provide medical and dental insurance as well as prepaid legal to my employees.

Paul Emery

Crickets from Russ on my request for credible sources showing Iraq shipped WMD's to Iran.


..." WMDs that were transferee to Syria and are now being removed and destroyed."
08 January 2014 at 02:46 PM

Account Deleted

Ben - since I would have questioned anyone stealing the bike, I guess you owe me a big apology. If you saw a video showing mostly dark skinned folks being rude to some one vs mostly euro-descent white folk being polite and helpful in the same situation, would it change your views about anything? Of course it wouldn't. This video doesn't have any bearing on real life. I could set up staged situations that show anything I want to prove.
Real life is far more telling. And real life doesn't work out neatly with everyone put in pre-set little boxes. By far, the most commonly used prejudicial images are employed by the 'progressives' and the left. The wealthy are always pictured as cartoon characters. I've known plenty of wealthy folk and they just don't fit the image as portrayed by the left. Their generosity and hard work are completely at variance with the deliberately false personae the left tries to create. Physician, heal thyself!

Russ Steele

Paul@11;15AM

Sorry Paul, I have been busy.

Here is my sources of information that has many links to other sources. [sorry some seem to be broken]

http://pjmedia.com/blog/satellite-photos-support-testimony-that-iraqi-wmd-went-to-syria/?singlepage=true

The article concludes:

General Tommy Franks and General Michael DeLong, the top two officials in CENTCOM when the invasion began, have spoken of credible intelligence supporting the theory. General James Clapper, President Obama’s pick to replace Dennis Blair as director of national intelligence, has previously stated his belief that the weapons went to Syria and took part in the meetings organized by Shaw.

Much more evidence exists that the WMD went to Syria, as documented here. Obviously, it is impossible to prove and we do not know exactly what went to Syria, but the history books on this issue shouldn’t be written just yet.

I choose to believe the evidence, it is more likely that the WMDs went to Syria. You may not choose to believe the existing evidence to support your Bush Derangement Syndrome, and that is OK with me. Each to his own.

fish

About time we got some good news on the Obamacare front!

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-01-10/292-million-down-drain-white-house-fires-main-obamacare-it-contractor

Only 292 million dollars to a company who...apparently had a history of this sort of thing....on the automation of federal retirement thrift payments system ....AMS had gone $60 million over budget and virtually all of the computer code it wrote turned out to be useless, according to a report by a U.S. Senate committee."

In the spirit of civic mindedness...I agree to provide an equivalent non-functional system for exactly 1/2 the price.

And to think that various members of the Emery clan have the gumption to say that we...... "Georges minions".....(using young Bens turn of phrase) have no community spirit!

Account Deleted

Sorry fish - the free market is hard at work here - I'll underbid you by 50%.
And I'll provide any employee I hire unlimited vacation and sick leave time!

fish

Ya know Scott...we could split the 292 large.....146 Million each and we only hire chimpanzees....a lot of them...overseas of course, sweatshop conditions! We either get a working online healthcare market or the worlds greatest novel!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no_elVGGgW8

Paul Emery

Russ

You seem to refuse to accept reality here.

You must be aware that even Rumsfeldt accepted there were no WMD's. There has been no effort from either the Bush or Obama administrations to support your theory. Also this from the Presidential Commission on WMD's. This was Bush's own commissions report in 2005

http://zfacts.com/sites/all/files/doc/war/2005-03-31_wmd_transmittal_letter.pdf

"We conclude that the Intelligence Community was dead wrong in almost all of its pre-war judgments about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. —Commission on the Intelligence Capabilities of the United States Regarding Weapons of Mass Destruction"

Ben Emery

Back to authoritarian fascist/ corporatist rant then.

George and his fab five followers will argue unlimited campaign contributions are just fine, it is free speech.

So what we have is a government that has two major political parties that control the levers of how "our" government governs. Over 90% of campaigns are won by the incumbent due to gerrymandering at the state level. Over 90% of campaigns who spend the most win. A majority of legislation is written by industry lobbyists. Unlimited donations to those who control our legislation is then a government up for sale to the highest bidder. So there is little to no representation for those of us (99%) who don't have large checks in hand to give to the political parties or candidates.

Why should a billionaire who is based in state A directly be able to back and support campaigns in state(s) B, C, and D? How is that good for the people in state(s) B, C, and D?

Solution, public financing of campaigns with the usual requirements of signatures and small donations. Think of it as a investment against corruption or investment in democracy. At the moment 1/3 to 2/3 of our representatives time is spent fundraising (getting bribed) for their next election. Set campaign season for 8 weeks. Free and fair advertising on public airwaves for candidates. Create a firewall of careers in industry to government and vice versa. People should not get wealthy being a public official. End insider trading for Congressional offices. End lobbying junkets, office visits only. Instant Run Off Voting.


fish

Solution, public financing of campaigns with the usual requirements of signatures and small donations. Think of it as a investment against corruption or investment in democracy. At the moment 1/3 to 2/3 of our representatives time is spent fundraising (getting bribed) for their next election. Set campaign season for 8 weeks. Free and fair advertising on public airwaves for candidates. Create a firewall of careers in industry to government and vice versa. People should not get wealthy being a public official. End insider trading for Congressional offices. End lobbying junkets, office visits only. Instant Run Off Voting.

I could get on board with most of this....two problems though.....most of you fixes won't survive the courts....and democracy as a concept is fundamentally flawed...other than that, I see real promise in your proposed solutions

George Rebane

BenE 446pm - Your aim for keeping government being bought and paid for by special interests is laudable and shared as RR's record shows. However, your approach puts Rube Goldberg to shame and requires ever more complexities of regulations, laws, and in enforcement. As Mr fish's 500pm points out a couple of realworld problems.

But coming around the barn one more time - has anyone on your side of the ideological fence ever considered starving the beast of the funds it has to spend?? Why do you think all that corruption goes on to get to Washington and then stay there - follow the money. If the feds were relieved of half of their budget - letting the states administer such monies - then there would not be the concentration of power and corruption by the Potomac. Every solution that the Left comes up with requires the removal of more freedoms for the people, and the taking of more of their money by force. What was that definition of insanity again?

Bill Tozer

"George and his fab five followers will argue unlimited campaign contributions are just fine, it is free speech."

Hmmm. Projecting again Brother Ben? The Fab Five will? Will argue? Yep, the proof is in the pudding. The Fab 5 (who are most fabulous if I do say so myself) will argue this and that. Brother Ben, you have a crystal ball or ESPN. Yep, the Fab Five WILL say this is fine. The Fab Five along with multitudes of Strawmen will sing it loud and proud in unison. You be one smart feller. Gotta get up pretty early to pull one over on you.

Predicting exactly what the libholes will say and do is like shooting fish in a barrel. (No offensive directed at Mr. Fish.) The way you bounce around from one topic to the other, I should call you Brother BM instead of Brother Ben. Hard to keep up with all your movements.

More love and butterfly kisses, your buddy and pal, Bill

Todd Juvinall

BillT, you are a hoot! Brother BM, now that is too funny!

Ben Emery

George,
You are right we have gone around the barn many times. Your position or complaint is what governments do, they provide services and create laws. Lets say we did it, we cut government spending to about 10% of GDP.

Paint that picture for me, how does it look?

As for the real world issues. They are laws that can be changed if we get enough people to support the idea.
Move To Amend
https://movetoamend.org/other-amendments

Bill Tozer

Concerning the hypothetical situation Dr Rebane posed about a Romney/Ryan ticket in 2016, I can guarantee you that a Romney appointment of the Attorney General will not be a shit for brains lunatic like Eric Holder. Imagine a Romney/Ryan Administration putting up with this nonsense spewing forth from Eric Holder. Never happen in a billion years.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/01/10/education-experts-blast-obama-administration-call-for-race-based-punishment/

George Rebane

BenE 623pm - Not signing my name to anything yet, but consider if total government would be constrained to live withing 20% of GDP. Let's divide that - feds 10%, states 5%, local 5%. The feds would be in charge of national security, and major infrastructure funding/maintenance (primarily in transportation and, say food and drug safety). The states determine how to allocate social services down to the local levels. The states would, of course, be completely in charge of how education is handled. Does that give enough to start chewing on in this discussion?

fish

Your position or complaint is what governments do, they provide services and create laws.

Used to provide lots less services wise....fewer laws and regs....more freedom.....the horror!

Lets say we did it, we cut government spending to about 10% of GDP.

Paint that picture for me, how does it look?

Pretty awesome.....looks like a free and sustainable future.

Account Deleted

from Ben - "Solution, public financing of campaigns with the usual requirements of signatures and small donations."
Who is this 'public' and how is the money gathered, administrated and doled out?

Ben Emery

Scott,
You can go look at Maine to see how their public financing works.
http://www.maine.gov/ethics/mcea/seed.htm

I can go through it all but I will give you the link and let you figure it out.

Account Deleted

Ben - looks like a program designed by Dems. The unions hustle the members to provide 'voluntary' donations for the party's hand picked candidate and the taxpayers pick up the tab. No thanks. Taking money from me at gun point to provide the election of folks I don't want to represent me is completely unacceptable.

fish

Taking money from me at gun point to provide the election of folks I don't want to represent me is completely unacceptable.

But, but, but.....democracy?!?!

Account Deleted

Democracy is only for those who walk in lock step with the left. The Koch brothers are people but the progressives don't want to listen to them or let them have a say. Only the folks with a victim mentality are the 'real' people. If you work your ass off and start a corporation and provide jobs and pay taxes, then you're not a 'person' anymore. If you walk into a Tea Party meeting, there's not a single 'working person' or 'citizen' there. Only the left should be allowed to dictate how we live as they claim to be the ones that truly represent me. I might have a different idea about that, but because I'm a conservative, I'm not allowed to have an opinion about that.

Ben Emery

What we call democracy in the current United States has very little resemblance to any form of democracy. What democracy is at its core, equalizing the power between rich and poor along with men and women in the polling place. Democratic Republic, which is supposed to be the form of governance of the United States has to do with equalizing the power between rich and poor along with men and women voting for our representatives. What has happened since the Nixon administration we have moved towards government to the highest bidder. Why fight it and lose when industry can just buy it. It took a generation but it has come to fruition, The Powell Memorandum has been fulfilled and everything that was feared from such an ideology has also been fulfilled. This is not knew it happened in the late 19th and early 20th centuries as well.

Powell Memo
http://law.wlu.edu/powellarchives/page.asp?pageid=1251

"The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door. That's the only difference."
Ralph Nader

fish

"The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door. That's the only difference."

Ralph Nader

Indeed!

Ben Emery

Here is educational program from Tony Benn on Democracy. It only touches on each subject and it is up to us to dig deeper. Very much worth the 40 minutes to watch. A democratic socialist from the traditional Labour Party in UK not this spineless weak kneed third way bs Blair ushered in UK and Clinton brought to the US.

Big Ideas That Changed The World - Democracy-Tony Benn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rokTiJfL4WY

fish

So we, suffering under the "flawed democracy" that you rail against currently enjoy the blessings of pretty much everything that Mr. Benn say that our ancestors both in the US and abroad suffered to achieve.....so what's your beef Ben?

fish

Hey Ben......more "wisdom" of the American voter on display.......

http://www.infowars.com/californians-sign-petition-allowing-u-s-troops-to-commandeer-their-homes/

George Rebane

BenE 811pm - Thank you for that link to the big teaching moment from retired British MP Tony Benn on 'democracy'. I urge every non-collectivist RR reader to view this half-hour program. It is a first caliber leftwing propaganda piece that instructs on their view of ideal governance. Collectivist thought reigns in his arguments - "all things should be held in common" - and globalization should be led by national trade unions becoming international trade unions. Socialist bankruptcies never existed. All things of the welfare state represented progress that was finally stifled by the anti-democrats Reagan and Thatcher. In sum, I found nothing in Benn's thought that would differentiate him from the Marxist ideals.

Walt

Since Ben is on the "fairness" kick again,, he can put his money where his mouth is.
I'm pretty sure he's financially better off than me. According to him and his friends, that's just not right. That's not fair!
I've been busy taking care of my elder parent to work.( This is a full time job in itself) I burned through my own hard earned life savings at the task.( at least the gov. didn't get it first)
Since Ben has more, he can make up my difference. Better yet, how bout he get his friends to kick in the same percentage of their horded wealth my way? My plan just cuts out the "middle man". ( bloated government,, "programs")

Come on dude(s),,, I ran out of unemployment a LONG time ago. ( but no extension for the likes of ME,, but LIBS want it for others,, and damn the cost, just add it to our bill) So fork it over! I have needs too.

Let me know when the checks are ready for pick-up.

Account Deleted

Ben - just as folks have different ideas about governance (yes, they do!) - so do corps have different ideas about governance. The vast majority of corps don't spend any money in Washington DC or in the state houses. You'll have to drop your cartoon ideas about corps. Most don't like croney capitalism as it hurts the small businesses. It's only the large corps like GM and the politically driven criminal corps like Solyndra that play the 'buy a pol' game. Most corps are not against me. They, like me, want low stable taxes and reasonable regulations. A lot of large, wealthy corps love all the left wing trash you spout. They are on your side. Welcome to the real world.

Bill Tozer

Concerning Obama's shills hyping BarackObamacare's early results:

The figures are in. Interesting. California signed up about 250,000 souls, of which 182,000 went to Medicare or kiddie medicare. Remember, if you are deemed eligible for Medicaid, you cannot purchase a plan on the exchanges, no way no how. The States' breakdown is interesting. In sum, of the 2.2 million folks across the fruited plain who have signed up, about a quarter of them are placed on Medicaid. Here is the brief:

http://aspe.hhs.gov/health/reports/2013/MarketPlaceEnrollment/Dec2013/ib_2013dec_enrollment.pdf

The longer draft shows about 54% are women and less than 25% of all participants are in the coveted 18-34 age bracket. We need that number of the Young Invincibles to be 40% for BarackObamacare to work. Of course the Administration (Obama's shills) ARE calling this good news, claiming that the percentage of the 18-34 year olds (22-24%) who have signed up is higher than their percentage of the general population.

Whippy-do. We need the Young Invincibles to be 40% of all enrollees for BarackObamacare to avoid the death spiral and those numb-nuts are claiming 22-24% is great news. Libs are not known for basic math proficiencies.

Bill Tozer

Opps, I goofed. Of the 2.2 million who have signed up, 800,000 are heading to Medicaid or kiddie medicaid. That is way more than the 25% figure I wrote. My apologies to all. 25% of all folks going on Medicaid is much too low. Again, my mistake.

Ben Emery

Fish 13 January 2014 at 10:41 AM- I guess you've been missing all the back and forth on voter ID laws.

George 13 January 2014 at 12:13 PM - Never does Benn mention the elimination of private property and the government controlling all of the means of production. Benn nor I have ever advocated we want the government making our shoes, air conditioners, or computers. What we advocate are rules in place that human being natural rights are not violated in pursuit of private profits. Without this there can be no communism. On the other hand the key to fascism/ corporatism is having industry control the rules/ regulations. What you refuse to admit is either through our current government or in in the mythological "free market" industry will control the rules of production thus the rules that surround human being natural rights.

Scott 13 January 2014 at 05:16 PM - I guess you've been to busy telling me I don't know what I am talking about to actually read what what has been typed. It has been made perfectly clear hundreds of times by myself we are talking about large corporations and industry. I am not worried about Humpty Dumpty of Grass Valley influence over our federal or state governments. What you are saying is eliminating corporate/ industry, political action committees, soft and dark money contributions to political parties and candidates would only negatively touch a small few. I would agree with you. There are probably between 50 - 200 that invest into our government enough to have large influence. That means 99% plus of corporations and wealthy individuals would not be affected by the elimination of their ability to contribute large sums of money/ in kind to political parties and candidates. So the question becomes- Why do you support the interests of a very small few that have every privilege money brings them over the 308 million other Americans?

For the record as I have typed here many times before what I support includes the elimination of contributions trial lawyers, environmental, and labor unions. Let our political parties be elected as OUR representatives on their ability to govern and on ideas.

fish

Fish 13 January 2014 at 10:41 AM- I guess you've been missing all the back and forth on voter ID laws.


Not at all Ben....I've been dismissing much of it because it's fairly easy to make the case that expanding the franchise to include every slack jawed idiot who manages to stumble into a polling station is no way to run a functional democratic republic.

Ben Emery

Fish,
Are you in favor of some kind of literacy/ comprehension test?

Do you believe that slack jawed idiots shouldn't have a say in the rules/ laws they have to live by?

George Rebane

BenE 938am - In a country with a growing fraction of 'slack-jawed idiots' who are also encouraged to vote, the result is a slack-jawed idiot government run by a small number of self-serving elites.

Ryan Mount

Ben-

There is a influentional group of people (largely Technorati who think they can fix everything with a smartphone app, but others as well) who believe that democracy and "freedom" (however one wants to define freedom) are incompatible.

So enter stage Right: neoreactionary/neocameralism

From the affirmative:

- http://darkecologies.com/tag/neocameralism/

- http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/08/against-political-freedom.html

From the dissent:

- http://theweek.com/article/index/254690/why-are-us-conservatives-so-obsessed-with-monarchies

- (and this stupefyingly long FAQ): http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/10/20/the-anti-reactionary-faq/

It would be interesting to hear feedback from this blog because I smell wiffs occasionally of neocameralism. Just wiffs.


fish

Fish,

Are you in favor of some kind of literacy/ comprehension test?

Actually yes!

Do you believe that slack jawed idiots shouldn't have a say in the rules/ laws they have to live by?

In most cases no. Obamaphone woman springs to mind.....even kindly Ben Emery has to acknowledge that there is a fraction (growing ever larger) of the population that would like nothing more than to treat the franchise as little more than a grand and glorious shopping spree. Your concept of democracy dies when a large enough fraction of the population learns that it can vote itself largesse from the public treasury.


Account Deleted

Ben - you still espouse a cartoon view of corps. They don't all have one singular view. A lot of what some corps want is exactly what you want. A lot of them back what I want. Your ideas of what our 'rights' are include, I would suspect, things that I don't want as a 'right'. I want a right to pursue profits. And I want that for everyone, including businesses. That right does not interfere with my other rights. And don't start jabbering about "no regulations". No one here is for that. If we had this wonderful govt in which only the individual citizens would be allowed to be involved in electing, you would run smack into the problem of the fact that some have the individual means to be involved full time and travel at will without having to work for a living. Some would have more influence than others. There is also the problem of the govt being in charge of the money (public financing that you want). The folks in power would quickly corrupt the system to favor their own and slow walk, or deny the funds to those not in power. If you want less corruption, then you need to have a less powerful govt. In a free market, bad businesses are controlled by folks not buying stuff from them. You don't like Walmart, but most folks do. That's full on free market democracy. The folks vote with their money and their feet. The fact is, you really don't want democracy, you want to keep tinkering and messing with the 'system' until everyone votes just like you. Right now, the most democratic group involved in politics are the Tea Party folks. Yet you are dead set against them. And in being against them, you join hands with the large corps and the power brokers in the R/D party. Are you enjoying the company of your fellow travelers?

Ben Emery

Scott,
You really don't get it. I am dead set against the Tea Party? You really haven't read a thing I have posted here and everywhere else. I disagree with Tea Party solutions but love the fact they are challenging the establishment within the Republican Party. I am doing the same in the Democratic Party. I could handle living in a conservative governed nation if that is what the majority of people wanted. I cannot handle living in a conservative governed nation when it works against what the majority of the people want. If we go issue by issue you would find our nation has progressive ideals yet we have one of the most "conservative" governments in the developed world over the last 3 decades. What we have found over that same time period we have be in a perpetual downward slide.

What you are doing is projecting the fears of "conservatives" or Republicans onto me. If "conservative" Republican ideas are superior then why all the disenfranchising of voters. If the ideas are that great you would think "conservative" Republicans would want more voters voting not less.

One of the founders of contemporary conservatism in America talking about voting.

Paul Weyrich
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GBAsFwPglw

fish

One of the founders of contemporary conservatism in America talking about voting.

So what? Weyrich wants to win elections.....Hillary Clinton wants to win elections.....Barack Obama wants to win elections....Ben Emery wants to win elections....everybody wants to win elections.

If we go issue by issue you would find our nation has progressive ideals yet we have one of the most "conservative" governments in the developed world over the last 3 decades. What we have found over that same time period we have be in a perpetual downward slide.

"Progressive Ideals"....? Yep...everybody wants their pony!

Ben Emery

"What we have found over that same time period we have be in a perpetual downward slide."

Inequality, debt, militarization, nationalism, corporatism, corruption, size/ scope of federal government, and political divisiveness have all increased during that time frame.

The plus sides are women are gaining ground on equality as are homosexuals. To some of you those might not be pluses and part of the reasons the other categories are moving downward.

fish

Inequality, debt, militarization, nationalism, corporatism, corruption, size/ scope of federal government, and political divisiveness have all increased during that time frame.


All of which seem to be reaching a zenith during a period where if you can fog a mirror you can vote. Not sure I follow your "logic" here Ben.

Ben Emery

Fish,
So how do "conservatives" Republicans win elections? Decrease the numbers of people who vote and increase those who can contribute large sums of money to political parties/ candidates to manipulate those who do vote. Why? Because their ideas are not what the majority of people want.

2010 the big year for tea party we had 43% voter turnout, which technically means 22% of the electorate voted them into office. In 2008 the biggest voter turnout in recent history we had a landslide Democratic Party election. What happened between 2008 and 2010 is Obama showed he was a third way corporate Democrat and progressives didn't join the campaign with their dollars or feet like they did in 2008. The biggest opportunity for a real political revolution since the Reagan Revolution was wasted by Obama and the third way corporate Democrats and the pendulum is hovering far right instead of coming back down for the next swing back to the left.

fish

So how do "conservatives" Republicans win elections?

Same playbook is in effect for both of the electable factions.

Decrease the numbers of people who vote and increase those who can contribute large sums of money to political parties/candidates to manipulate those who do vote.

And this is a bad thing.....as opposed to dragging members of the "Free Shit Army" to the polls and electing the "Ward Heeler in Chief" as Chief Executive? Color me skeptical that your goal that every member of the lumpen proletariat walks home with a purple finger tip is a good one. Regarding your "Big Money Donor" point..... employing TEAM BLUE bundlers to money launder contributions submitted on sequentially numbered checks and claiming that "we've had an excellent turnout from the "grass roots" this election cycle is equally disingenuous.....TEAM DEMOCRAT has their hands in the corporate pockets just as deeply as TEAM STUPID does!

Why? Because their ideas are not what the majority of people want.

Who are you to speak for the majority?

The biggest opportunity for a real political revolution since the Reagan Revolution was wasted by Obama and the third way corporate Democrats and the pendulum is hovering far right instead of coming back down for the next swing back to the left.

Whatever Ben....they claim to be progressive....you claim to be progressive.....maybe getting the definitions straight will mean less disappointment next time.

Ben Emery


Sorry Fish, if you look at voter turnout per election 40's - 1960's were the largest voter turnouts. When the Southern Strategy became part of the Republican Party voter turnouts began to decline and with Watergate it was actually a great long term bonus for "conservative" Republicans due to the distrust of our government from that point forward. The Bush/ Cheney years scared enough of the electorate to come out in huge numbers in 2008. The D's could have run anybody and they were going to win majorities and the Presidency. When Obama proved he was another Clintonite more people became disillusioned. Obama and the 2008 huge majority Democrats did was either advance the speed of the inevitable demise of our current system or assured low voter turnouts for the next generation because people don't believe either party represents their interests, and they are correct in believing so but all of those who fought and died to give us the vote cannot die in vain.

fish

Sorry Fish, if you look at voter turnout per election 40's - 1960's were the largest voter turnouts. When the Southern Strategy became part of the Republican Party voter turnouts began to decline and with Watergate it was actually a great long term bonus for "conservative" Republicans due to the distrust of our government from that point forward. The Bush/ Cheney years scared enough of the electorate to come out in huge numbers in 2008. The D's could have run anybody and they were going to win majorities and the Presidency. When Obama proved he was another Clintonite more people became disillusioned. Obama and the 2008 huge majority Democrats did was either advance the speed of the inevitable demise of our current system or assured low voter turnouts for the next generation because people don't believe either party represents their interests, and they are correct in believing so but all of those who fought and died to give us the vote cannot die in vain.

?????

Todd Juvinall

I guess BenE was too young to remember Reagan beating Mondale in 1984 and taking 49 states. Yep, those wascally Republicans probably demanded the voters to show an ID.

Also, it seems to me BenE that all the attempts by your ilk to bring in the last voters they can find (even mental institutionalized democrats), meaning democrats, has not worked. Voter ID remains a "concept" over most of the USA, but you do remember "same day registration.voting"? Or motor-voter? How about provisional ballots where anyone can declare they are registered, not prove it at the polls and then the rest of us wait for those millions of votes to be verified? Or, how about all those dead democrats that rose from the grave and traipsed down to the polls to elect Kennedy and then Obama?

It seems the democrats want to have the living and the dead and now the liberal zombies all voting out those wascally R's. My goodness BenE, you must not see how silly you are here.

Todd Juvinall

On the update today George. Walmart also sells to all, even the poor, a $4.00 prescription on many drugs. They came out with this to help but I do not recall one scumbag democrat or indie say thanks.

Ben Emery

Aren't we talking about democracy? You guys are talking about winning elections and I am talking about democracy. As it became apparent that the more progressive Democrats became with the election of FDR, Truman, JFK, and LBJ the Republicans "conservatives" have been actively suppressing the vote, which is the antithesis of democracy.

An example of prominent Republican then Supreme Court Chief Justice suppressing the vote.

Jim Crow, From the Polling Place to the Courtroom: You've Come a Long Way, Baby!
https://files.nyu.edu/dpa218/public/rehnquist.html

Walt

Have LIBS been taking notes where Chris Christy is concerned?
Maybe LIBS need to see what "taking responsibility" really means.
Yes, it looks bad for the "big guy", but at the same time, he looks three times as "presidential" than the fool we have today. He even FIRED his life long friends for what they pulled. ( "O" hasn't fired anyone. He did give some promotions,,,)
LIBS are going to have to overcome their own Nixon style tricks and their domestic spying.( that's a big one) Obummercare is the last nail in their
proverbial coffin.
Good luck getting Hillary past Benghazigate.
She tucked her tail and ran when the heat was on. ( and a bump on the head for sympathy..... " I can't testify"..)
And now her own "enemies list" has come to light.
11 months folks,, Nov. will be here before LIBS know it.

fish

You guys are talking about winning elections and I am talking about democracy.

????? Are you pinned under the tractor again?

George Rebane

Ben 107pm - Is there any evidence that requiring a voter to establish his bona fides has suppressed the vote anywhere? The only thing it has prevented is voting from the grave, and voting by those who don't have the legal franchise.

Ben Emery

It is obvious you guys have not followed this issue at all. There are so many moving parts to this lets start this with voter caging? I am assuming we all know what Jim Crow Laws are and why the Voting and Civil Rights Acts were very much needed.

Voter Caging
http://projectvote.org/voter-caging.html

Bill to Outlaw 'Voter Caging' Introduced in U.S. Senate
http://www.gregpalast.com/bill-to-oulaw-voter-caging-introduced-in-us-senate/

fish

As it became apparent that the more progressive Democrats became with the election of FDR, Truman, JFK, and LBJ the Republicans "conservatives" have been actively suppressing the vote, which is the antithesis of democracy.

1) FDR: the Great Helmsman of the Free Shit Army....who could forget the immortal words....tax and tax, spend and spend, elect and elect.

2) Truman: Presidential placeholder

3) JFK: Kind of surprised you lumped him in here Ben....got us neck deep in Viet Nam...thought you were antiwar Ben? Some chat among the conspiratorial about his taking the bullet over wanting to go back to silver backed currency....that certainly couldn't be good for endless social spending under the direction of noble and kind progressives.

4) LBJ: Progressive in that he took the Free Shjit Army to the next level.


Always seems to get back to spending tax dollars for Ben Emery guilt alleviation.

fish

Voter caging is a practice of sending mass direct mailings to registered voters by non-forwardable mail, then compiling lists of voters, called “caging lists,” from the returned mail in order to formally challenge their right to vote on that basis alone. Other methods, such as database matching, have been used more recently to compile voter caging lists. The practice is used almost exclusively by officials or members of the Republican Party, local and national.

So verifying that a voter lives where he claims to live for the purpose of voting is somehow brutal oppression? Really Ben when I saw the term I expected so much more.

Ben Emery

Fish,
It was during the Eisenhower administration the US began its venture into Vietnam not JFK. Actually JFK wanted to leave Vietnam alone, it was LBJ that lied us into a full scale military action and Nixon that sabotaged peace talks to get elected in 1968.

You know what, forget it, once again it continues the point of authoritarian fascist/ corporatist blog. http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html

What’s Wrong with Caging and Voter Challenges?

"Many of the state challenge laws have their roots in the post-Reconstruction Era and are descendants of the Jim Crow laws intended to deprive African Americans of their franchise. In the1890s, former Confederate states reacted to robust political participation by African American voters and candidates during Reconstruction by instituting what was known as the “Southern system.” The Southern system employed restrictive residency requirements, periodic registration, poll taxes, and literacy or “understanding” requirements, to suppress the African-American vote. Challenge laws were passed during this period to enable private poll watchers to issue challenges. The obvious flaw in permitting private citizens to challenge voters is that it opens the door to partisan interference in elections. "

Ben Emery

I posted a comment that didn't take and it is fine George, maybe that is a sign I should continue this issue instead of giving up because I think it won't do any good.

Yes voter caging, as I said there are a lot of moving parts on this issue.

Here is a video about it.

http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/330/video.html

Ben Emery

The next part of the voter suppression. As you will find or maybe not, mostly these tactics take place in "battleground" states where 1-3% of the vote could swing elections.

1) intimidation
2) voter caging (replacing jim crow laws)


#3 voter purging

Voter Purges
http://www.brennancenter.org/publication/voter-purges

fish

Yeah it's kinda greasy Ben....but Palast himself admits that, "...in and of itself caging is not a crime". Other than the black military voters I guess you have no issue with the democrats when they do this to overseas and ship deployed service members?

George Rebane

BenE 251pm - I had never heard of 'caging', but given the extensive reports of how Democrats signed up like-minded voters, it doesn't surprise me that Republicans attempted to discover the legitimacy of such voters before election day. Now that PBS hit piece you linked to tried to intimate that something illegal was done of a magnitude that should have caused a national scandal. Given that the lamestream is all leftwing, what happened to all the court cases about caging? We didn't hear a peep, nor was there anything said of it during the subsequent elections. If caging was illegal and suppressed votes (the big example was 31 college students got 'caging letters' in Jacksonville), why didn't this make national headlines and why aren't people in jail because of it?

Ben Emery

George,
That is the thing everybody here needs to understand we have corporate friendly media not mainstream media. 80% of campaign spending is on advertising dollars and 50% of those campaign dollars are either Republicans or Democrats so virtually no hard hitting investigative piece is ever ever done against the parties just individuals within the parties.

The act of caging itself isn't illegal, it should be because it is an essential link in the chain of voter suppression.

Here is where I really break off from the Democratic voters. I believe the Democratic Party leadership is fine with the practice or will be until enough members of their caucus can muster up enough voters to make it an issue they can campaign on. Then the leadership will allow it to become a platform issue. Until then you will hear individual Democrats talk about it and generally not a word from the leadership of the party.

I also believe this is why voters are not showing up for the Democrats either because they have no backbone and don't stand for anything.

I will post more later about this issue.

Fish,
No, I oppose anybody being prohibited from voting or not having their votes counted. At some point you are going to figure out I am not a Democrat and have grown to really dislike the party.

Todd Juvinall

Let me get this straight. BenE says there are little if any issues in voting that would cause the need for and ID and is calling anyone who desires them a fascist. Yet when we mention voter fraus and people like ACORN registering Mickey and Daffy a bunch times, the same BenE pooh poohs it by claiming it hardly ever happens. OK, got it.

fish

At some point you are going to figure out I am not a Democrat and have grown to really dislike the party.

Right around the same time you stop thinking I'm an authoritarian.

Ben Emery

Fish,
I guess it isn't going to happen anytime soon.

Ben Emery

Todd,
I guess you missed the ending to the ACORN story.

James O'Keefe was found guilty and ACORN was acquitted. Yet the organization and its 400 thousand employees are now finished. ACORN actually promoted democracy and helped low income people with housing and other necessities. O'Keefe and Giles are fu@#ing a$$holes.

James O'Keefe Pays $100,000 To ACORN Employee He Smeared-Conservative Media Yawns
http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2013/03/08/james-okeefe-pays-100000-to-acorn-employee-he-smeared-conservative-media-yawns/

Todd Juvinall

Ah yes, ACORN won, yeah sure. O'Keefe got them destroyed and rightly so. They were a pox on the country and front for voter fraud. Yep, that O'keefe, he is my hero BenE, you can have ACORN.

Todd Juvinall

Here is what Rick Unger, the author of the article listed by BenE says about himself

"I write from the left on politics and policy"

Golly BenE, thanks for the heads yp on another leftwing "journalist" . Too finny.

Ben Emery

My heroes are those who break unjust laws to create positive change your hero's are those who hurt the poor. He also got nailed for breaking into a Congressional office and attempting to bug it in Louisiana.

How is your hero benefiting society and our nation?

ACORN filmmaker James O’Keefe sentenced in Sen. Mary Landrieu break-in
Read more: http://thehill.com/capital-living/in-the-know/100105-filmmaker-okeefe-sentenced-in-sen-mary-landrieu-break-in#ixzz2qRLnCTIX

Todd Juvinall

I seem to recall you were idolizing the OWS thugs Benny. They are your heroes. No one got killed or raped by O"keefe did they? Your buddies in OWS did that and more. You are too funny.

fish

My heroes are those who break unjust laws to create positive change your hero's are those who hurt the poor.


"In 2009, Rathke resurrected the crusades of NWRO by pursuing a so-called “Maximum Eligible Participation Solution” (MEPS) which exhorted all Americans eligible for welfare payments to make “full utilization of existing programs” and thereby advance Rathke's dream of a massive welfare state. The MEPS is essentially an updated incarnation of the old Cloward-Piven Strategy, aiming to orchestrate a crisis that will overwhelm the financial system and cause it to collapse. Rathke writes in his book, “it is hard to believe that we cannot assemble the troops to mount a campaign for maximum eligible participation that harvests the opportunities and dollars already available if we could achieve full utilization of existing programs.” Rathke has also said that technology should be utilized to make it as easy as possible for people to claim welfare benefits.

of course there are others who argue that this may have a down side!

In his 2006 book Winning the Race, political commentator John McWhorter attributed the rise in the welfare state after the 1960s to the Cloward–Piven strategy, but wrote about it negatively, stating that the strategy "created generations of black people for whom working for a living is an abstraction."


Remember Todd, Bens heros (Rathke, Drummond Pike, et al) are the sons of comfort who enjoy "slumming" while retaining the ability to keep black people on inner city plantations forever.


"....the Street Epistemologist actively avoids everything that will question his faith. He will say anything, and adopt any position, in order to attack yours."

Todd Juvinall

fish, excellent. I also sem to recall BenE's love of the only self avowed socialist in the Senate, Bernie Sanders. I seem to recall he has voted consistently against school vouchers for inner city kidlets. Now would it not be the kindest act of his hero to pursue "choice" for those kidlets locked into a life of terror and poverty? These are the things that make me laugh at BenE for his "forgetfulness" about his past statements and his namecalling of all of us. He is a non-serious person.

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