A Libertarian Lovefest in Scottsdale (updated 26mar14)

George Rebane

This weekend Jo Ann and I, along with some Nevada County friends, attended the annual retreat in Scottsdale, AZ put on by the Mercatus Center and the Institute for Humane Studies (both at George Mason University).  The conference for liberty prone supporters was a welcome opportunity to hear stimulating speakers, attend breakout sessions on various national issues, and eat great food at the Montelucia resort.

The format of the retreat allows its attendees (slightly north of 200) to have ample time for one-on-one discussions with nationally recognized scholars and well-published pundits.  I especially enjoyed my chats with economists Tyler Cowan and Peter Boettke, and philosopher Matt Zwolinski.  It was good to re-establish that one’s understanding and interpretations of what is going on in the country are not a lonely collection of notions shared by no one else.  While we did identify some differences, they were not of the magnitude that would put us in different ideological camps.  It was truly a libertarian lovefest.

Saturday night’s speaker at the concluding gala dinner was none other than Peter Schiff, nationally known media pundit and author who at times gives me pause when I consider his assessment of how far beyond the tipping point America has gone in the management of its fisc.  Schiff’s latest book, The Real Crash – How to save yourself and your country, sums up his views.  But if you’ve been a regular RR reader, you already know Schiff’s copy fairly well (summary notes here).

A common theme of all the speakers and discussion leaders was that they are ‘short term pessimistic, and long term optimistic’.  It was that proposition in which I most strongly differed with my betters, for I believe exactly the opposite.  Our political system is geared for the short term; every program, legislative vote, and lie to constituencies is designed for just one objective – re-election.  The long term is treated as if it either doesn’t exist or matter.  When we combine this political behavior with accelerating technology, we get what I believe is the fundamentally strong socio-economic result I have long argued, and that we are now witnessing.

On its current course America's economy will continue to reduce the number of available jobs per capita, and its population will not produce the sufficient number of workers to fill the jobs that are produced.

I did my best to make the case for growing systemic unemployment in these pre-Singularity years.  And to my pleasant surprise found these ideas to be received well with serious consideration if not downright acceptance.  We shall see if there are any spreading ripples.

Schiff’s talk covered the details of how we got into this mess called the Great Recession (which I call Depression2), and the nature of the outright lies that we are being told about the non-existent recovery.  Numbers can be deliciously slippery things, and there’s no way that a progressive will acknowledge, let alone agree with a libertarian’s interpretation of economic history.  In any event, Schiff ran out of time before he could switch from diagnosis, prognostications, to prescriptions for a better future.  To remedy that I present some stepping stones on his path to salvation as described in his above referenced book.

-    Jobs: Government can improve employment only by getting out of the way;
-    Fixing the financial industry: Deregulate;
-    Sound money: Return to the gold standard;
-    Tax Reform: For starters, end the income tax;
-    Tear up the “third rails”: End Social Security and Medicare;
-    Fixing Higher Ed: Time to drop out of college? (also see MOOCs);
-    Healthcare:  Repealing Obamacare is just the beginning;
-    America is bankrupt: Time to admit it.

[25mar14 update]  Dr Matthew Slaughter, professor and associate dean at Dartmouth, makes the credible claim that America’s H1-B visa and immigration policies are costing the country an additional 500,000 jobs annually.  This is based on the fact that the 85,000 restricted H1-B applicants consist primarily of degreed STEM workers whose demonstrated multiplier effect results in the half million figure.  There are about twice as many STEM applicants annually as are allowed in by our misguided immigration policies.  These foreigners are also the people who found companies that bring untold wealth, trade balances, and prestige to the United States as a leader of the developed world.  Each year the fraction of native born Americans in the STEM ranks continues to shrink while our politicians are finagling how to get more illegals amnesty to join the constituencies that keep them in office.  (more here)

Meanwhile, our own universities are pumping out graduates an ever increasing fraction of whom are winding up unemployed with unpayable college debt.  Why are they unemployed?  Well they studied stuff that no one cares about enough to take a chance on their ability to do a job in this Potemkin economy.  (more here and H/T to reader)

[26mar14 update]  The big debate forming up between factions of the Right is how to go forward as the self-purported conservators of the nation’s fisc and future.  Republicans are the party of prominence and power for the Right, and leaders of that party have been pushing proposals and legislation that take major steps toward what Schiff and other national thought leaders have prescribed for at least twenty years now.  Today those proposals are ignored by Democrats, and worse, denied that any such proposals have ever been put forward by Republicans.  The lamestream dutifully echoes that message and repeats it to keep the uninformed misinformed.

But the Repubs have not been innocent in contributing to the fiscal and social train wreck ahead.  When they did get their fingertips on the levers of power, they have been simply overwhelmed by the reality of an entrenched liberal government bureaucracy and an electorate that has gotten more than used to the handouts of a carefully constructed nanny state.  And the result has been that the party’s sage heads have always concluded that it would be imprudent to be prudent – imprudent in the sense that if prudence were proposed, Republicans would be thrown out of office.

So today we have the more socialist than ever Democrats with their back firmly turned on reality, believing that they can bamboozle the voters and lenders forever, as they continue to lavish goodies for votes – goodies that are paid for with borrowed money that is even used to service the ever growing debt.  The whole game is based on new lenders forever lending more at ridiculously low interest rates, and old lenders continuing to cook their books, having long abandoned hope of recovering their principal.  To the collectivist, that is how the financing of governance works.

To support this ongoing fiasco requires the careful management of ‘information’ from the government and their corporate cronies.  For example, we are told that America is recovering from the Great Recession.  But by any real measures of the economy’s progress or comparisons to baseline amounts and rates, nothing could be further from the truth.  So the farce will continue until the lenders start demanding real interest for the risk of playing perpetual Ponzi with Uncle Sam.  When that happens the fiscal flywheel that has kept things going will simply disintegrate, spraying shrapnel into every corner of our economy.  Then as we gather in the streets with our pitchforks and torches, it will dawn on us why our police have been quietly militarized.

And no one in our fair land is prepared to do anything to break this vicious cycle of ever more debt to fund ever more spending to buy ever more votes to remain ever more in office.

When we look at the Republicans as the loyal opposition whose long voiced principles are supposed to be the great hope that pulls us back from the brink, we see sage heads shaking and advising that the GOP should help the Dems stay the course.  These ‘pragmatic’ pundits inhabit the full range of Republican politics, telling our candidates that it is better to forego principles and be re-elected, than remain principled and risk being defeated in the next election.  For after all, what can an unelected politician do to help the country right itself?

This Catch-22 is so firmly in place that even local county level advisors to our congressional representatives are not willing to discuss the ridiculous state of affairs in which we find ourselves.  In my talks with these folks, I simply run into a brick wall when making the case that what can’t go on forever, won’t.  Everyone on the Right agrees that what’s happening can’t go on forever, but they will not even consider advising our electeds to do anything that would prevent the train wreck.  I take that back.  These advisers and their elected Republican patrons concur that the country only needs a little magical pixie dust to bring back the Ozzie and Harriet world of the 1950s, and then the country will somehow be back on the yellow brick road to full employment, robust GDP growth, shrinking national debt, and an ever positive current account.

But the numbers say it ain’t gonna happen.

Comments

[Russ Steele]

George,

In reference to your statement: "I did my best to make the case for growing systemic unemployment in these pre-Singularity years And to my pleasant surprise found these ideas to be received well with serious consideration if not downright acceptance. '

This is a huge progression from last year, when this idea was not really accepted, if not rejected by the economic lights at Mercatus. I am pleasantly surprised and pleased by this change in understanding to the employment challenges ahead. That said, the solutions were not evident in the discussion this year, only recognition of the problem. There is still a long way to go for some reasonable solutions.

[Bill Tozer]

I too was struck my Dr. Rebane's comment that Mr. Steele focused on. Bill Gates as well came out last week concerning systemic unemployment in these pre-Singularity years.

A word to our youth: Say "screw the future" and the future will screw you in our 'do your own thing' live for the moment society. It is not going to be easy, guaranteed, or handed to you, but the road map is laid out. When walking through a mine field, it is wise and prudent to step in the footprints of those that made it through.

The long term does not look like roll out the barrels, we going to go skipping down the Yellow Brick Road time. The globe is simply not prepared to enter the Singularity World. We enter it bankrupt, unskilled, unprepared, and the solutions proposed by the Reverend Jessie Jackson and ALL progressives only aggravate the problem each and every time. Their cures are worse than the illness.

You don't fix the caboose by weakening the engine.

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[Fuzz]

Republicans/Conservatives/Libertarians always rail about "following the Constitution" and "personal freedom". I'm an Independent and I love both those things too, but my question is always, "freedom to do what??" As history has shown, some of what you want "the freedom to do" has required the collective sentiment of the populace, expressed through government, to stop destruction, malevolence, ignorant planning, and societal disorder and breakdown. It still boggles my mind that America allowed slavery to continue as long as it did. Let me be clear, I want only "necessary" regulation, and not one law more. Deciding on "necessary" is the big debate. In practice, Republicans essentially want no regulation of anything (barring outright lying or theft) UNLESS it threatens their own bottom line. Then, its panic time and YOU (government) better do something about it! What's going on with Tesla's efforts to direct sell to customers is a perfect example. Those big conservative regulation-hating car dealerships are scared to death of Tesla's direct sales model and (shock and horror) are using the government to try and stop it. Tesla isn't simultaneously selling their cars through independent dealerships so why should those dealerships tell Tesla how to operate? They're free market hypocrites and conservatives should be outraged. What's next....forcing Apple to shut down it's private stores and sell only through Walmart, Staples, and Best Buy? This is why people have become distrustful and skeptical of both government and the free market. Too bad we don't have a grand Divine Referee to expose the motive and effect of everything in real time....it would save so much hassle. Until then, we try to "see the forest from the trees" and guide the good ole US of A as best we can.

[fish]

Those big conservative regulation-hating car dealerships are scared to death of Tesla's direct sales model and (shock and horror) are using the government to try and stop it. Tesla isn't simultaneously selling their cars through independent dealerships so why should those dealerships tell Tesla how to operate? They're free market hypocrites and conservatives should be outraged.

I believe you are referring to the latest push back from auto dealers in New Jersey.....ahhh.... New Jersey hotbed of conservative thought and deed and home to the most unregulated markets in the US!

Really...you're not even trying very hard these days Fuzz!

[Fuzz]

Fish, add in Texas and Arizona, among others, and not everyone in NJ is a leftie. It's the principle involved.

[Paul Emery]

George

Your "stepping stones to salvation" have about as much chance of being adopted as Cheney going to Heaven. It's a wish list beyond all reasonable discussion. How do you propose gaining majority support for such proposals as ending social security and medicare which are extremely popular?

[Gregory]

I think "replacing Obamacare" is the focus group tested slogan du jour. At one point in the past a Libertarian presidential nominee (Andre Marrou, I think) suggested abolishing the IRS and adopting the Federal budget of ~4 years earlier, which balanced the budget without IRS derived income.

Paul, notwithstanding any existential debates of any gnostic consequence, Cheney has as much chance of getting an eternal reward as anyone posting here, including you. Give the Bush Derangement Syndrome a rest.

[fish]

How do you propose gaining majority support for such proposals as ending social security and medicare which are extremely popular?

I think George mentioned it at the end of the post....look carefully....carefully.....there it is: - America is bankrupt: Time to admit it.

But be of good cheer Paul you will probably go to your grave without seeing it.

[Bill Tozer]

I hear what Fuzz is saying. Both sides pander to their constituencies. The Right and the Left, be it kowtowing to the Sierra Club or the biggest employer in your little district. That is why they got voted in and its the American Way. Bring home the bacon or stand in the unemployment line after the next election cycle. And on broader issues, many elected representatives vote their conscious on foreign affairs. The Matrix is not perfect.

This electric car thing is a State by State issue. Puts dealerships at a disadvantage if the state requires them to sell cars through a brick and mortar showrooms, complete with awful bland designer paint on the walls. I am all for buying direct, but local municipalities like GV really, really miss all that sales tax revenue since the dealerships in town went south. I buy direct from wholesalers all the time. You might pay a bit more than what Amazon offers, but with no tax, I always come out ahead. 200 bucks on the nose means 200 buck and zero cents delivered to the destination of my choice. No 200 clams plus tax and shipping and handling.

Fuzz, here is the flip side of the coin which puts a burr in my saddle. Seattle has gone looney left. Makes the Oakland City Council or the Berkeley City Council seem middle of the road by comparison.

In Seattle people are using that new great app for finding ride share partners. But, the Seattle City Council says it has to be regulated and it is hurting the cabbies. Plus, they don't get their cut. So, the lame brains come up with their plan. They are going to limit the riders that use the ride share app to 130 riders a day. Say what? How can they even know who is using the app, who is actually getting a ride, where they meet, etc. Free market is making the cabbies looking like the horse drawn buggy manufactures when Henry Ford came along.

But, no. Even looney left Seattle...strike that....especially looney left Seattle is shaking down the free market to get their cut. That way they can continue to put up signs that tells the reader the term "brown bag" should not be used in local government workplaces cause it has racist roots. All that printing of the do's and don't's in the workplace costs money so they are kowtowing to the cabbies. Even in Seattle. At least they banned the term Halloween cause it might offend Jehovah Witnesses. Who in the Sam Hill put those control freaks in charge?

Cuts both ways. Money talks and BS walks. Both sides know how to get the ear of their representatives..

[Russ Steele]

The facts can be hard to deal with my the left:

Nearly half of all US jobs are threatened by robotics

According to a study by University of Oxford researchers, nearly half of all US jobs could be lost to robots in the future.

Researchers studying over 702 detailed occupation types to find how susceptible jobs are to computerization found that jobs in transportation, logistics and administrative support are at "high risk" of automation. The findings also revealed that even occupations in the service industry were highly susceptible to losing their positions to robotics.

"We identified several key bottlenecks currently preventing occupations being automated," Dr Michael A. Osborne, from the Department of Engineering Science at the University of Oxford, said in a statement. "As big data helps to overcome these obstacles, a great number of jobs will be put at risk."

According to the findings, about 47 percent of US employees are at risk from losing their jobs to computerization in the future. They also said they found evidence that wages and educational attainment exhibit a strong negative relationship with an occupation's probability of computerization.

"We note that this finding implies a discontinuity between the nineteenth, twentieth and the twenty-first century, in the impact of capital deepening on the relative demand for skilled labour," the authors wrote.

They said that while nineteenth century manufacturing technologies largely substituted for skilled labor through the simplification of tasks, the Computer Revolution of the twentieth century threatened middle-income jobs.

The researchers said that this was the first study to look at how technological progress is going to change the future of employment.

http://www.sott.net/article/276225-Nearly-half-of-all-US-jobs-are-threatened-by-robotics

[Russ Steele]

Oops should read;

The facts can be hard to deal with by the left:

[Gregory]

Paul, regarding SS and Mediscare, they won't be eliminated, but I don't see any way around benefits being means tested, and the generations that follow the Boomers getting the Chile treatment, actually making retirement investments that actually have value besides the power to tax someone else's money. Boomers in the US were forced to give their retirement savings to the so-called "greatest generation" and expect our checks to be written by Gen X, Y and Z as they go down the same road.

One thing about Ponzi schemes is they can't go on forever. Neither can SS or Medicare. In short, Paul, we'll have to accept dying more readily than our parent's generation and won't be buying as many Winnebagos.

[Paul Emery]

Of course Gregory, all systems need to make adjustments when necessary.

[Fuzz]

Bill, I agree with you completely on Seattle......that's nuts!! How dare the City Council stick their nose into it. Lots of those ride sharers could be poor people and students, struggling to get by as it is, but that's not the point. It's none of the City Council's business! There are probably vastly more people who would like to ride share than taxis could ever handle anyway. Makes you want to buy an island in Puget Sound and set up your own non-government......except we might end up with an adult version of Lord of the Flies :)

[Bill Tozer]

An island in the Puget Sound? First rule would be 'no rules'! The second rule be no more 'no rules'.

[fish]

Of course Gregory, all systems need to make adjustments when necessary.

Who just justified a selective default?

[Walt]

" Car dealerships"? Really?..?? Just WHO closed PLENTY on a whim, and hostile takeover of GM? Just which political party did "those" dealer owners belong to?

Tesla got big bucks from the gov.,, and maybe those LIB backers are demanding Tesla "share the wealth" by employing "salesmen" to sit in high dollar showrooms where maybe someone will walk in once a week to window shop what they can never afford. Even at 60% taxpayer subsidized pricing, only the (evil) rich can afford the future carBQ .

[Walt]

What is with Progressive Presidents? Is there some hidden rule they must "give away" a slice of the United States with every "Presidency"?? It really started with Carter. He gave away the Panama Canal. Clinton gave China our missile tech. Before he did that,, China couldn't "deliver" a warhead across town, let alone across the globe. No "O" is "handing over" the Internet to God knows who.
( well,,, Gore said HE invented it,, so do LIBS actually have title to the digital landscape, and it's theirs to do as they please?)

The grand "redistribution" continues. One more reason never to elect a LIB again. Just what will be "given away" when the next ( God help us) version
and renamed Progressive gets elected?

[Gregory]

"Who just justified a selective default?"
fish | 25 March 2014 at 09:22 AM

What "selective default"? No SS or Mediscare recipient has any property right whatsoever to the monies they expect to receive, and the amount and timing of benefits have always been at the whim of the Congress.

These aren't bonds or deposits in a financial institution. You don't have a pile of T-bills in your name that you get to redeem. It's a handshake deal with the Congress and if you didn't count your fingers after the handshake, that's your bad.

[fish]

These aren't bonds or deposits in a financial institution. You don't have a pile of T-bills in your name that you get to redeem. It's a handshake deal with the Congress and if you didn't count your fingers after the handshake, that's your bad.

But Greg....these programs are popular...or so I am reliably informed by commenters here.....they can't just change them because they've been poorly managed and are actuarially infeasible!

Did I mention they're popular?

[George Rebane]

And here I thought that SS was supposed to be a contract with the feds - you take my money and invest it as you will, and when I reach the contracted age, I will start getting checks that reflect what I paid into the system that you promised to prudently to manage for me. Now I know that Medicare was something different. I had no Medicare account, but only a Medicare deduction from my paycheck for which the feds promised to compensate me for some of my medical expenses as when and if their funds allowed. In short, one is a program of trust in which the feds have a fiduciary responsibility, and the other is an entitlement returned to me at the convenience and pleasure of the government.

[Bill Tozer]

The wish list of things to do to fix the broken machine all point to jobs one way or another. Its a wish list cause I do not see us touching the 3rd rails much besides doing what Senator Bob Dole when he was in the minority on one of those Presidential Blue Ribbon Commissions. Lost track of how many Blue Ribbon Commissions that have covered the same ground over the years. Tweak the Cola, tweak the contribution rates for people in some distant future. Nothing about the here and now. So in that sense I agree with Mr. Paul concerning fantasy land. Gold Standard?

To be clear, I am not opposed to one single thing on the To Do List. Not one. Fixing higher education, Obamacare, The Debt, government's nose in the job market (and everything under the Sun) along with the other items all point to fixing our economy which translates into jobs, jobs, jobs.
Sometimes I see rays of hope in tackling our near worthless and counter productive public education system, but its mostly playing musical chairs on the Titanic.

We have pasted the point of diminishing returns one or two decades ago, but hope burns eternal in my breast.

Noticed our Federal Justice Department is investigating why so many kids of color (mostly black kids) are being suspended from grade school. Think it is like 71% of the suspensions, just about the same % as the out of wedlock birth rate in those areas. Hmmmm. Now the Justice Department wants to set a quota for school suspensions. They ain't claiming the suspensions are unjustified or racist, merely pointing out that black kids are being disproportionally suspended, thus the result is racist. WTF!!

Thank goodness my last little one changed her mind about becoming a fashion designer and now is fully embracing becoming a biologist. Is diving headfirst into it. She even dropped soccer to take on an additional "real" course. She quit her part time job so she can focus solely on academics and has this no nonsense attitude going on. Guess she does not want to work on the assembly line making baloney sandwiches after watching all her best friends for life drop out and now work at coffee bars. I will gladly cover her rent and expenses with that serious attitude. May not be a real STEM career, but it beats what I did with my life. Excuse me for bragging, just could not help myself. And to think we lived in a broken down car (with her sister) for months and people said you can't get there from here. People say a lot of things.

She has not asked me for a dollar since I paid her one month's rent in January. That girl knows how to squeeze a dime and get nine cents change. If she can do it, anybody can. Math and Science are not her best subjects to put it most kindly, but we all can rise up beyond ourselves if we have courage, fortitude, and motivation.

[Gregory]

"And here I thought that SS was supposed to be a contract with the feds - you take my money and invest it as you will, and when I reach the contracted age, I will start getting checks that reflect what I paid into the system that you promised to prudently to manage for me."

George, you're joking, right? What were the investments that turned Ida May Fuller's 25 bucks into $23K?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida_May_Fuller

[Gregory]

George, tell me, regarding your lamenting of needing even more "STEM" H-1 visas, why is it that engineering is the only good or service where additional supply does not depress prices?

I agree with Milton Friedman on this one; the H-1 program is a corporate subsidy that is about cutting the cost of engineering labor. It fosters the hiring of young foreign workers that are guaranteed to be more docile and cheaper than the average US born engineer.

"Recent research by the Government Accounting Office (GAO) finds over half (54%) of all workers brought in through the H1B visa program are being paid at the lowest level."
http://smlr.rutgers.edu/modern-indentured-servants

[Michael Anderson]

Gregory, I smell a gored ox. I love the smell of gored oxen in the morning.

[fish]

Gregory, I smell a gored ox. I love the smell of gored oxen in the morning.

Posted by: Michael Anderson | 26 March 2014 at 08:55 AM

Is this little gem going to go into your "art" project?

(Elapsed comment time: 28 seconds)

[Michael Anderson]

Fish, the answer is yes. Thanks for asking.

I also very much appreciate your new time-stamping procedure. This is probably what I love the most so far about the 21st century, there is just so much innovation and forward-thinking response to critical analysis that it makes my head spin.

[George Rebane]

Gregory 819am - I've worked with foreign techies all my life. As I reached senior management levels in my companies, I hired foreign workers for many slots technical and non-technical. My experience has been the same as at other companies - the foreigners are more than happy to start out at lower pay levels while their skills are being vetted. But then the successful ones very quickly catch up in pay levels to their American counterparts. Most recent example was BizRate.com which had about a quarter of its workforce made up of foreigners. Our pay scales and actual wages did not discriminate on national origin, and no other dotcom I was aware of practiced such tiered compensations.

[Gregory]

George, while I've no reason to doubt your experience, your small scale hiring isn't what the huge tech firms are doing. 54% at the lowest level isn't par.

The question remains... do you think tech is magic, with supply and demand curves unaffected by pouring in young, inexperienced and cheap foreign "STEM" workers?

Then there's this gem:
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117088/silicons-valleys-brutal-ageism

[Gregory]

Another bit: "Our pay scales and actual wages did not discriminate on national origin, and no other dotcom I was aware of practiced such tiered compensations."

You don't have to "discriminate national origin" to have foreign engineers being paid less. They are overwhelmingly young, and filling entry level spots. *IF* the problems of big tech getting enough STEM worker bees are due to shortages, the pay would be soaring. It isn't.

Even fleabag mom and pop IT services companies can be affected, unless they operate on such a low level that they don't even hire degreed IT help.

[Gregory]

George, here's another view, this time from IEEE Spectrum:

"...these factors may help explain why only about half of those graduating with undergraduate STEM degrees actually work in the STEM-related fields after college, and after 10 years, only some eight percent still do. I should note that those with STEM degrees do seem to enjoy higher salaries than non-STEM degree co-workers in any field they so choose, which may be the best reason to get one.

By the end of the conference it was pretty clear that the assumption that a major increase in STEM educational funding is absolutely required for the US to avert future economic decline is not well tested"
http://spectrum.ieee.org/riskfactor/at-work/education/stem-education-in-the-us-is-more-or-less-needed

[Michael Anderson]

Greg, my experience in this arena is exactly as George describes. So basically, you're wrong.

Your attempt at lame defamation and slurs was very entertaining nonetheless, and I do very much like being inside of your brain, most of the time. I would like to tell you, however, that this time what I found up there were some rotting pumpkins, a couple of dead kittens, and a crying little boy who I tried to comfort until he bit me on the finger and tried to stab me with shards from a broken Romper Room mirror.

You might want to get that checked out.

[Gregory]

Mike Anderson, you have a business IT degree, have never worked as an engineer, and don't have a clue as to what either George or I have done, or are doing. And besides mom and pop (both with the same b-school IT degree), the three young fellers you got there seem not to have anything besides a high school diploma. Not exactly high octane STEM, is it?

Basically, all you have are your very limited experiences looking up where everyone was more technical than you and if you had anything valid and on topic to say you wouldn't be inventing defamations to smear me.

I've given several serious links to bolster my case but all you have is empty rhetoric. It's a fairly simple case to make: STEM workers are unlike every other labor category in that more supply does not depress the price paid for that labor. Give it a try, assuming you actually took macroeconomics at some point and can grok the basics.

Personally, I think the case that only 1 of 10 "STEM" degreed baccalaureates are working "STEM" ten years after graduation makes a joke of the crisis of "STEM" graduates.

I've also worked with numerous foreign nationals, and even in the little Grass Valley advanced development office of THE major modem company we had several Chinese nationals, eastern Europeans and of course, some from the Indian subcontinent. I expect all with H-1 visas were paid just a little less than the rest of us despite being roughly equivalent... easy to justify by jiggering the job category and experience level and would lack prima facie evidence of discrimination. I also know of an Indian with an fresh US MSEE in a little GV company who was only paid $40K. Bright kid, got out of there as soon as he could, but he was tied down for a couple of years, part of the effective involuntary servitude of the visa.

It's a lot cheaper to double US "STEM" workers by doubling those retained in their originally chosen profession from 10% to 20% than it is to double the number getting "STEM" degrees in the first place.

[Michael Anderson]

Hey Greg, why do you continue to make claims about me and my company of which you know nothing about? Oh, I know why...because whenever I touch your little tar baby you feel the need to act like a three-year-old. How in the world does my claim you that you are wrong defame you? And just to be clear, I wasn't saying that more engineers doesn't drop the price for their labor. What I was saying is that you don't appear to like having the competition. Big difference.

The bigger question is why does George allow you to continuously slur and defame me and my business on this blog? The answer is that it serves his interests in some way. I'm not sure why just yet, but I do intend to find out.

The biggest question of all is, why did I come back here and why don't I know any better? I like hanging out with fish, Tozer, DM, and some of the other denizens of this joint, but the crank in the corner really makes the whole place completely unpalatable.

Stick with the issues if you can Greg, and stop talking about my personal credentials and my business unless I talk about them first and put them in the public domain. You're a sad little stalker tar baby, and George appreciates your repellent services for some odd reason. Weird.

[fish]

This is great....like watching Voltaire and Rousseau go at it!

(Elapsed comment time: 48 seconds - including checking the spelling of Jean-Jacques last name)

[Todd Juvinall]

fish, you are sooo funny! I have to say tough that Michael Anderson is far outclassed by Gregory. Mr. Anderson was continuously posting a comment and then deleting it on my blog as a "message". It was simply a childish act. Regarding his business, I recall Mr. Anderson posting his employee total was four including him. I built houses for thirty five years and had a few hundred employees over that time. Three is nothing.

Greg has a keen mind and good writing skills and I can see why Mr. Anderson would be confused.

[Michael Anderson]

Your Italics Are Out at the Plate!

[Russ Steele]

I have been wondering, why it is that some reasonably smart people waste so much time in pissing contests on this blog? It does not contribute to the discussion, it is boring and demonstrates a lack of courtesy for the other readers. Those desiring to engage in pissing contests need to start their own blogs, have a wonderful time pissing in the wind and stop boring the rest of us.

Some one left off a "/i" and now every comment is in italics.

[fish]

Some one left off a "/i" and now every comment is in italics.

Probably me Russ! Trying for decent commenting times so Michael won't be mad at me for unduly wasting the taxpayers dollar.

Stupid typepad!

[Michael Anderson]

Fish, I stand corrected about my obviously mistaken assertion that you were wasting taxpayer dollars by posting comments here. I was wrong. I admit it. Reading the blogs as well, no harm-no foul there either. I promise not to bring it up again, as long as I can remember this promise.

Russ, there is a double standard here at Rebane's Ruminations that I am trying to understand. For example, why does George delete Todd's comments when he slanders Paul Emery's musicianship but leave up Greg's slurs about what I do for a living? It's a weird double standard that puzzles me. I think those of us with differing points of view would like to contribute to the discussion here, Russ, but not if we have to put up with Greg's withering attacks every time we say boo.

I'll take my answer on the air.

[Joe Koyote]

"why it is that some reasonably smart people waste so much time in pissing contests on this blog? " -- I think it is called politics; ideological positions cast in concrete. It is the result of too much exposure to dimwitted pundits who make their money by starting pissing contests over mostly BS hot button topics that would have never gotten any traction otherwise. It is all part of the plan to divide and conquer. As long as people engage in petty bickering they will never come to realize that we are all in the same boat, just what the globalists want, people blindly defending corporate freedom for reasons they can't really articulate because their really is no good reason to defend corporate greed in the first place. Over half of Congress are millionaires, are you? Do they really represent your interests whether you are a conservative or a liberal or progressive or a tea partier, or whatever?
Speaking of globalists, what do folks think about TPP?

[Walt]

Speaking of "pissing contests",,, Seems Ca. elected LIBS are out to see how many felony charges they can rack up and get away with before they get caught.
Even GUN RUNNING!!
Lefty's in power, sure have got ballsy about what they think they can get away with. Holder has done a great job of covering up and not prosecuting LIB miss deeds. ( as long as your at the FED level) Ca. Lefties thought the could ride the coat tails. What happened? Didn't give enough to the DNC election bucket?

Just maybe Holder and the boys will ride in and save the day.
Seems the ATF has been working overtime in Ca. From illegal search and seizure, ( FEDS went judge shopping to obtain a warrant, that other judges refused to grant.)" 80% " finished lower receivers or " AR paperweights" . AND the customer lists. ( Registration leads to confiscation)

Just maybe Holder will say Yee was working for him and "O" to "track weapons".

[Joe Koyote]

Case in point.

[Todd Juvinall]

So JoeK and Russ, how would you debate Putin? How about the midget from North Korea? You might get into some personal discussions? Or Hugo Chavez? How about Harry Reid? Harry did a bunch of real estate deals yet was able to get elected because the "press" did not do their due diligence because they were destroying Sharon Angle as a nut. You see, you will attack (not Russ) Sharon Angles and Christine O'Donnell personally then cry about the people on the right pointing out your hypocrisy. I love this stuff!! Of course I bet you said Clinton having sex in the Oval Office was no ones biz right?

[Joe Koyote]

Todd -- case in point. What on earth are you talking about?

[Walt]

Joe may want to look into Dirty Harry's questionable asset "acquisitions".
Plenty of insider trading there.. How else could he be one of the richest LIBS on the hill? Now,, word is out of his questionable campaign donation "expenditures"..
Just how did Harry get so rich on HIS salary, and coming from Searchlight "nowhere" Nev.?
No wonder the LIBS on Capital Hill shot down the law of "insider trading rules"
that would apply to them.

[Todd Juvinall]

If you can't figure it out then I guess you have no hope.

[Walt]

Let's have a LIB explanation for this..
"One top advocate says President Barack Obama should invite previously deported people back into the United States, where they can compete for the low-wage jobs now being sought by low-skilled American natives and legal immigrants."

Seems the Libby BS of " Americans just won't DO those jobs." isn't holding water.
Half of Americans are out of work, and or on food stamps. ( monkey with the employment figures like LIBS have, and things have looked "rosy".. We are really at about 13% Unemployed.)

Yaa.... Invite back illegals to vote LIB,, is what it boils down too.

[Gregory]

""why it is that some reasonably smart people waste so much time in pissing contests on this blog? " -- I think it is called politics; ideological positions cast in concrete. It is the result of too much exposure to dimwitted pundits who make their money by starting pissing contests over mostly BS hot button topics that would have never gotten any traction otherwise." -Koyote

Certainly there is a great deal of that from some of the more distressed. Here's an example of some of mandersonation's past rhetorical excesses from a decade ago:
"The reason they [the children of the privileged liberal elite] will not join the U.S. Army is because there is the distinct possibility that they will get killed acting as an enforcer for the Bush Crime Family. The reason these children might join the Taliban is because of the confusion caused by most journalists -- yourself [Debra Saunders] being a prime example -- who refuse their Fourth Estate responsibility to expose high crimes and misdemeanors (not fornication) of thugocracies like we presently have in Washington D.C."

Regarding the Fornicator in Chief, I say go for it, just don't lie about it under oath when being deposed for a lawsuit back in your home state, which is a high crime. Perjury, a felony. Clinton was disbarred for it once the impeachment proceedings ended, without getting the felony conviction; that he had earlier appointed the judge to their position might have had something to do with the disposition.

Regarding Anderson's complaint that he gets hit when he comes here, maybe he should stop throwing punches as he walks in the door, and if I misread his company web pages, that his three employees are not techs with no degrees (STEM or otherwise), he should let us know when he's fixed his web info to reflect the current reality. If I seem to be dismissive of what he does for a living, that's only in the context of "STEM"; system administration is the mud room of high tech. Software sanitation engineering. Very important, in that if something of a technician can't be found to do it, an engineer will have to spend their time doing that as opposed to actually performing engineering tasks.

Why do I even bring it up? Russ, this is for you: because Mike and friends paint me with words like Haldol and psychopathy, pure fabrications on their part, and pretend that those lies have nothing to do with my personal or professional life. George lets that happen here so I respond. The old TheUnion blog would delete pure personal attacks but such posts are welcome at RR, as long as it isn't George being attacked and his patience runs thin; perhaps someday it will be a more general rule.

[Todd Juvinall]

The reason things get personal is because the Frisch, Pelline, Emery's and Manderson make it personal. I watched Bush take their crap for eight years and say he did not want to get into the weeds with them so they were able to pound him relentlessly with no blowback. I decided I would not do that so you get blowback from me and others here. If you attack our policies, fine, we will defend them. If you libs attack us personally, you get called out as the hypocrites you are. Michael Anderson represents the phony baloney policies of the libNation and then cries when those policies are debunked. Nothing personal from me or us when he puts forth his tripe on policy. But he has decided that he can't beat me or Greg on the policies and so he gets personal. Same with Frisch and Pelline. They think they can call us stupid, fascists and extreme and think that is just fine. They are trying to define us to others. Well boys, you are going to have to take our blowback or leave. Simple as that. All is fair in politics and war and some say love. This is political war foisted on the country by these ungrateful buffoons of the left.

[Walt]

Todd. If you speak out, or shine the light of day on "anything LIB" ,, it's considered a "personal attack". You don't even need to mention names, and the real name calling and belittlement ratchets up. ( and don't I know it.)

[Todd Juvinall]

Walt, so true. When you read from the manual of law to a lib he calls that a personal attack. I have experienced that many times.

[Michael Anderson]

Well Russ, I hope you now have the answers to your question. Greg believes that my snarky response to his whining about skilled engineers from foreign countries increasing competition for labor justifies his trashing my business and my employees. Russ, do you think this is appropriate behavior? Apparently George supports it since he does nothing about it.

[Joe Koyote]

Walt 10:38 -- I could give a rat's ass about Harry Reid or any of the rest of them. To me they are all the same, Republican/Democrat, it doesn't matter. One is just as crooked and self-serving as the next.

[Gregory]

"his trashing my business and my employees"

There was no trashing, Mike. Grow up.

[Michael Anderson]

Go fuck yourself Greg.

[Todd Juvinall]

Michael A and Steve F are too funny. I have asked both for the gender and racial backgrounds of their employees since they were always chastising us about being a racist or sexist. They refuse to supply the info because it would catch them in their hypocrisy. Bit I guess that is a personal attack. Too funny!

[Gregory]

Todd, if MA's web site is up to date, he has three white guys working for him. On the young side, and I've met one of them in an unrelated context. Go ahead and browse his website, it isn't hidden.

Perhaps the always on edge Michael Anderson will someday grace us with a sentence he thinks is a trashing. In any case, thanks, Mike, for another example of malice, as if I really need more.

[Gregory]

For those of you interested, here's a list of that great talent being given H-1 visas, and the average salaries:

http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2012-H1B-Visa-Category.aspx?T=JT

George, you might compare those salaries to the ones your American engineers were getting, in 2012 dollars of course.

[Walt]

That's the best you can come up with Joe? This is YOUR party of affiliation.
Since when did you stop defending Progressives?... Today??
These things need to be pointed out to the resident Lefties here. The likes of MSNBC isn't going to report it. I have seen how the second coming of Walter Cronkite ( John Daily) (uh) reports the headlines..

Now here in Ca. four of your own politicians have paid a visit to the Graybar Hotel in resent history. And the latest for GUN RUNNING, among other charges.
It seems the only thing pissing off the rest of the LIBS in Sac. ,, is that they have lost the "super majority", and the Repubs can actually have some say in things.( like fighting tax hikes)
And just maybe the fact they got caught.

How much more proof is needed that most elected LIBS are rotten to the core?
From "O" on down. Holder has been to busy covering his own hide to stop these investigations. ( but not on Ca. gun stores apparently. Gotta get that customer list)
Ya gotta do better there Ki-oat,, This ditch digger can bury you.( in facts)

[Michael Anderson]

Greg, I have vast knowledge of your entire engineering career in Nevada County. And the only reason I even bring that up is because you brought it up first. But I don't talk about the details on the blogs because that's not the way I roll.

Oh, and please go fuck yourself.

[Gregory]

"But I don't talk about the details on the blogs because that's not the way I roll."

Mike, you don't repeat it because you have nothing but lies and innuendo.

[Bill Tozer]

Greg and Michael sitting in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N-G. First come love, then comes marriage, then come little Greggie and Mikey in a baby carriage.

[Michael Anderson]

Good one, Tozer.
First sign of intelligence on this blog in over a week.

Where's the proprietor?

[fish]

Where's the proprietor?

Letting us all wallow in free speech....thought you were for that?

[Gregory]

Stands to reason a childish vamp from the girl's jump rope playground greatest hits would appeal to Anderson as intelligent.

Perhaps George is off reconsidering his stance on H-1 visas. Here's a take from a source that the Anderson and Frisch's would enjoy more than George does... Mother Jones. "How H-1B Visas Are Screwing Tech Workers: A program meant to boost innovation instead fuels outsourcing". A former subscriber, I'm used to picking out the gems from the steaming piles in most issues.

An excerpt:
"[In] reality, most of today's H-1B workers don't stick around to become the next Albert Einstein or Sergey Brin. ComputerWorld revealed last week that the top 10 users of H-1B visas last year were all offshore outsourcing firms such as Tata and Infosys. Together these firms hired nearly half of all H-1B workers, and less than 3 percent of them applied to become permanent residents. "The H-1B worker learns the job and then rotates back to the home country and takes the work with him," explains Ron Hira, an immigration expert who teaches at the Rochester Institute of Technology. None other than India's former commerce secretary once dubbed the H-1B the "outsourcing visa.""

Hira's Senate testimony is here:
http://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/04-22-13HiraTestimony.pdf

An excerpt:
"Under the bill's wages, a firm could hire an electronics engineer for a mere $39,000 per year in College Station, TX. This is more than a 37% discount (a whopping $23,000 annually) over the starting salary for an entry level Bachelor's degree engineer. And it is an astonishing 59% lower than the national average wage of $95,250 for electronics engineers at all skill levels."

Again, I know of a company in Grass Valley who scored a foreigner (nice kid) with a fresh MSEE from a well known East coast university for only $40k. Poor guy was stuck in a bad market and had to take what he could get (or go home) and put up with it for a couple of years, because it really is a form of indentured servitude.

[Account Deleted]

Greg - how is lowering the cost of doing business in this country a bad thing?
The 40K a year job in GV is not indentured servitude in any way, shape or form. What country was he from? That money might be far more than he could make at home. During the depression, our country was flooded with highly trained and educated folks from certain areas of Europe. It was one of the reasons we did so well in tech for decades. We need to open the gates for the best and brightest from the world.
Instead we open the gates for the poorest and least educated. National suicide.

[Gregory]

While $40K with minimal benefits might look good to a number of locals, it is on the low side for an MSEE, and if you look at the definition:
in·den·ture
verb:
1.
bind (someone) by an indenture as an apprentice or laborer.
synonyms: bind, contract, employ, apprentice

That is what the H-1B does; it binds the foreign worker to that particular employer for the duration and if they get fired or laid off they could find themselves having to leave the country unless they can find a job quick for another company willing to sponsor an H-1B. Who do you think has the upper hand in that salary negotiation?

Scott, thanks for accepting the reality of H-1B wage suppresion, but I'm not sure that thought fits with George and Russ' SESF TechTest message.

George, what do you think? "Take the hardest classes your college has to offer but we'll have the borders open for kids who took similarly named courses to make sure no one has to pay you as much as the management and law school grads will make".

Sound good?

[George Rebane]

Gregory 140pm - Have no idea what "stance" on H-1Bs I'm supposed to "reconsider". The single employer ploy for the duration of an H-1B is a stranger to me. All the H-1Bs I hired over the years came to me from previous employers - i.e. I hired them away from their existing jobs. And the fact that they were H1-Bs came out in the interviews after the candidate had qualified himself on his merits.

Your perceived TechTest message rings hollow in its final part. With the numbers involved, am pretty sure that the H1-B program does not bend the salary curve so as you would notice. Most certainly neither I nor my acquaintance of peers helped bend that curve.

But during the seminars I do tell the TT kids about the global market for STEM workers and our H1-B program. They know they are competing in one of last remaining unprotected job markets in the world. And America would definitely benefit more if we would open up a facile path to citizenship for H1-B workers.

[Account Deleted]

Greg - you used the term 'indentured servitude' and then quoted a definition of just 'indenture'. Millions of folks work under contract. And when they lose the contract or are fired, they have to look elsewhere for employment. So? You need to go back and look at the history of actual indentured servitude as practised in this country. H1-B is not the same thing at all.
I ask again - what is wrong with lowering the cost of doing business in this country?
I do not see my way as 'wage suppression'. I see your way as 'artificial wage protectionism'. And as with all economic protectionism, it ends up working against the very folks that you try to protect. We are losing our design and production abilities - how does that help wages in the long run?

[Bill Tozer]

In this market, the employers have the upper hand. No ifs, ands or butts about it. And its not just wage that is expensive. Add the cost of Workman's Comp, the employer's share of FICA, Medicare, unemployment insurance, SDI, you have a $40,000/year new hire costing about 70k a year with bennies and employers 3-4% matching to the 401k.

Just read that Ford is going to invest 500 million greenbacks on a plant and that will employ a mere 300 workers on the site. Think Chevron spends 26 million dollars investing in capital and assets for every new employee it hires.

Take a kid straight out of business school with a CPA certificate and he will be paying his dues for the first 2 years until he /she gets some experience under his/her kilt.

Follow the Yellow Brick Road to find the end of the last recession or the beginning of the next one. We are off to see the Wizard because we are off our rockers to believe the future looks bright and rosy. Well, at least our 45 million billion gazillion uninsured folks are getting coverage. Yeah right:

http://news.investors.com/032814-695150-obamacare-enrollment-exposes-democrat-lies-about-the-uninsured.htm?ven=fox_businesscp&src=aurlaeu&p=2

[Bill Tozer]

Opps, that is page two of the link. Hit previous at bottom to read page one.

[Account Deleted]

Correct, Bill - Employers have the upper hand on wages, but the total cost of employment is way high in this country because of the govt. Let's tell the govt to butt out of the private sector employment. Any transfer of funds that are mandated by govt should be handled by the govt. The employer pays the employee the wage and then the employee will settle with the govt any fees or taxes the govt demands. When the govt demands the employer to become the tax collector, it masks the actual costs involved from the public. Just about every working person pays bills every month. Make the govt just be another check the citizens write every month. SDI, taxes, unemployment, any health insurance you want to have and so on. Tends to educate the citizens just what everything costs. Of course, educated citizens tend to be - ahem - Tea Party types and we all know how evil that is.

[Joe Koyote]

"Make the govt just be another check the citizens write every month. SDI, taxes, unemployment, any health insurance you want to have and so on". Not a bad idea, which I am sure would be loved by low wage employers like big box stores and fast food outlets, as it would save millions in book keeping expenses. However, will employers kick up salaries to make up for the loss of benefits or will employees just eat it and the money go into the pockets of the employers? Another possible issue is retirement. I think one of the reasons SS was implemented was that many people are horrible at saving money and if they aren't forced to save they won't. Of course this is gov't intrusion and gov't telling people what to do, but what is more effective forcing people to save for retirement via SS or a similar system, creating some kind of charity based system to care for those non-savers in their old age, or just letting them starve and telling them "I told you so!"?

[fish]

.....or just letting them starve and telling them "I told you so!"?

Feature not a bug!

[George Rebane]

JoeK 1017am - Given your concern for people with little ability to handle their own concerns, do you see any limit to the extension of your philosophy of the state's policies of nurturing by force? Or is the measure of a good state the extent to which it cares for those who can't or won't (as long as its implementations are equitable)?

[Walt]

Think they have trouble now Joe? ( the "low" wage gang) Wait till the graduates of "common core" hit the bricks.
I can't wait to see what CC has done with the tape measure.

We all have the same 24 hrs. of a day. If your not rich, it's no one's fault but you own. ( or theirs) It's their own problem they didn't pay attention in school. People make their own choice to be "low income" workers.
We are guaranteed "equal opportunity" NOT "equal outcome". Yet that's what LIBS say "should be".
How many freeloaders will you keep under your roof? You go out and bust your butt, while they are there eating you out of house and home, running up the utility bills. " Equal outcome" Pal,,, ( wait till mother in law shows up to retire.)
I don't think you would put up with it vary long.

BTW,, Thanks to Liberal monkey business, the 40 hr. work week will only be for skilled workers. You can thank Obummercaretax for that. So many will need two jobs to get by. ( great idea)

[Bill Tozer]

Walt, it is not good for someone to sit around the barn eating all the hay. You are preaching to the choir even though I can't carry a tune.

Our current system was set up to take care of the lame, the sick, the slow. No problem there with me, be it from heredity (genetic defect), things out of there control (a car slams into your bedroom while you are sleeping, crushing your spine)or by foolishness (a person takes 36 hits of acid, puts a 22 up to the temple, pulls the trigger, and lives). That ain't what burns my ever shrinking butt.

What burns my ever shrinking butt is there are way too many people falling into the lame, slow, feeble, and sluggard category. When a much higher percentage of folks are sitting around the barn eating all the hay than in years past, it becomes are heavy burden to bear for those working in the fields.

Our workforce is shrinking. Less folks pushing the wagon. States have figured out that it is way cheaper to get their residents off welfare and long term unemployment by transferring them to Social Security Disability. Heck, 30 years ago, there was not one single case of ADD known in Japan and rare in the USofA. Now every kid has it and Mom and Pop get a child support check every month from Uncle Obama. Can you give me one good reason why the Disability rolls went from around 6-7 million total in the USA to over 11 million since Obama took office? That percentage of growth of the Disability rolls is unheard of and unprecedented. Must be caused by all the stress waiting for your 4th and 5th Obamaphone.

About Social Security. It is called Social Security Supplemental Income. Get that? Supplemental income. Never designed to be your sole retirement income. Never. We all know retirement is coming and we had had all our lives to prepare for it. The prudent and wise frogs dig down into the mud as winter approaches and make it through. The foolish and carefree frogs play and frolic on the top of the pond until one day it freezes over and they become frog sickles. Not a pretty sight. Should have listened.

Our founders knew that some people are simply more talented, smarter, innovative and resourceful. Equal opportunity does not mean equal outcome. Preach it Walt, preach it loud, preach it proud.

[Account Deleted]

That's funny - "I think one of the reasons SS was implemented was that many people are horrible at saving money and if they aren't forced to save they won't."
Guess what? The same folks that won't save, voted in pols that won't save.
What did they do with the SS money they took from me? Gone. Another colossal
govt fail.
Planing for the future and putting aside resources is a basic responsibility every adult should be involved with. I'd be interested in why vast numbers of Americans suddenly can't do that. What happened? We used to do it. Heck, even dumb animals put food away for the winter.

[Walt]

Yes Bill. The "former" current system worked as intended. Just not as "perfect" as the freeloader gang envisions. " FREE stuff for everyone!"
Never mind who foots the bill.( as long as it's not "them".)
As far as health insurance goes, we are seeing the destruction of healthcare... Wholesale...
Seems their idea of "equal care for all" has come full circle. "equally crappy",, and equally unaffordable. ( except for the ruling class)

The young that worship the ground LIBS walk on don't want to work for what they need or want. They want it given to them, and the don't care how, or who from.
Somehow a job has been turned into the only way to acquire health coverage.
( Ya... get someone else to pay your coverage, like it's owed to you.)

The next big LIB "vote for me" BS will come in the form of a "guaranteed" job for anyone who wants one. " Work is a right!" " But work at your OWN pace and hours! Your "job will always be there".
Let's see how that will work out... By mandate. ( and at a minimum wage of 25 bucks and hour.... It's ONLY fair... Right Joe?)

[Joe Koyote]

George 10:56 -- George -- "Nurture by force" Interesting terminology. I would be more likely to call it "covering my ass now rather than later when it will be more difficult".

I cannot disagree with the notion that people be responsible for themselves. However, there will, for the foreseeable future, be those who, for whatever reasons, are unable to care for themselves. If our society continues down its current path as you contend, the rolls of those who are unable to care for themselves will swell to astronomical proportions. What practical solution do you see as a viable option to so-called “nurture by force”? Will private charitable institutions step up? If so, can they handle the load? Do we do nothing except arm ourselves and put up high fences? I tried the fence but the damn county will only let me put up a six foot solid fence. But that wasn’t to keep out the hungry masses, just the most recent urban transplant who moved in next door and started to complain about everything including the rooster crowing (no kidding.)

"Planing for the future and putting aside resources is a basic responsibility every adult should be involved with. I'd be interested in why vast numbers of Americans suddenly can't do that."

I think it has to do with our consumer oriented society and the sophistication of advertising and public relations techniques. People are being brainwashed to buy flatscreen TVs, ipads, cell phones, and tons of other junk they don't really need whether they can afford it or not. In our society success is often measured by how much bling a person flashes. As a child, my parents would take my brother and me on site seeing journeys through the poorest parts of town to show us how others lived. I was always amazed at the number of new cars sitting out front of run down old houses.

[George Rebane]

JoeK 430pm - regarding your observation about our "consumer oriented society"; I wonder if the you think the government has something to do with promoting such a society. The poor and indigent are taught that they too have the right to enjoy equal benefits of the good life manifested by those who earn more and are better off. The government and its progressive cadres are the prime promoters of such equal outcome measures to demonstrate equal opportunity. Is not our "consumer oriented society" then the natural reaction to such state sponsored education?

[Bill Tozer]

Good comments Mr. Koyote. Living and spending above one's means is just one of the problems you have identified. Volumes of anecdotal stories from our forefathers point to walking instead of taking the nickel trolley to making one's own clothes and never ever buying anything on credit. We can only imitate their behavior in our own personal lives and do not have the power to command society to follow suit. And yes, Granny might have been poor as church mice, but she had the emergency stash in the cookie jar or in her Bible.

Another side to consumers spending beyond their means is mirrored by government, the spender of first and last resort. When the good times are rolling along, our legislators lick their lips and dream up new ways to spend. Saving for a rainy day is not even on the agenda, except for some Red State governors. When times turn gloomy, all we have is mandated programs and higher expenses than before things turned south. If a bill has a Sunset Clause, it is extended and always put on autopilot.

There is a quirk about human nature. When the good times are rolling along and we are dancing on the sunny side of the street, our minds and emotions tell us it will always be this way. Conversely, when the years of famine hit, we think it is actually worse than it is and all seems hopeless. Solution: Turn to Big Bro to help us little bros out. Thus more new programs and spending, the death spiral if you will.

Most relationships have the carefree spender and the prudent one. The saver and the spender, the nerd and the free spirit. Kinda like the mind and the emotions, miles apart yet under the same roof. The responsible and the irresponsible. Once they get on the same page, sacrifice and spending can co-habituate with equal input. Money (financial difficulties and differences) are the number one cause of divorce.

Ah, divorce. Divorce can lead a nice middle class couple to the poor house as the divorce wipes out their savings and with each one responsible for their separate rents, debts, and livelihood, their standard of living goes bye-bye. It ain't the 1%ers fault.

I have started over more times than I remember and each time it has improved my life. I still do not have a flat screen or shinny car. Last new shinny vehicle was in 1981 and just paying the car loan (24 months back then) made me sick. Never again, but I digress. Cash is King. I do have a tiny prudent reserve for the lean times and a fatter cookie jar than last year for my autumn years. And hard assets. Then that runs out, I will live on Social Security and then move on to the marble orchard. Of course, all plans are subject to change.

FYI: My neighbor has a rooster than I immensely enjoy hearing at the crack of dawn. Another neighbor has donkeys somewhere cause I hear then baying and love it to. And somewhere a neighbor must have grouse or some similar birds cause I can hear them and it makes my life more enriched. Get peacocks and drive your transplant neighbor up the wall, lol. Move to a rural area and expect the mailman to deliver to your door?? What a hoot, pun intended.

[Bill Tozer]

Just teach our kids if they want something they have to buy it themselves. Even a young pre-teenager will save and save and do anything for work to buy some 300 dollar X Box or bicycle. Told one daughter that if she wanted to go to Costa Rica for a month during the summer, then she can if she pays for it. She was under 18 and went! She also learned how to do comparison shopping with the airlines and how to travel cheap. Took a year of planning. I did kick down for the cost of her passport and shots, but not a dime more. Learned to sacrifice weekend nights for a goal. She even sold her ski boots and used clothes.

https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/t1.0-9/1966944_10152002981885911_511683408_n.jpg

https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/1383257_10151986237225911_285849699_n.jpg

https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/1185144_10152002140225911_1131328164_n.jpg

[Joe Koyote]

George -- You are avoiding my question as to what alternatives are there to "forced nurture"?

[Walt]

Bill. Great post... I taught my kids that if they wanted something, they needed to work for it. ( and for the most part that has worked well.)
One put himself through collage on the idea of "buy low,, sell high".
His product of choice was console video games. He went to Blockbuster and picked up games that were in the "bargain bin" for less than 10 bucks each. Then sold them on Ebay for quadruple, then made an extra buck or two on shipping.
Now he and his (uh) significant other have paid for a house with this "hobby". ( we managed to produce at least one good capitalist)

That teaching has come back to bite. This same kid is sitting on tons of airline miles today. You would think he could break loose some of those miles to help fund his parent's airfare to the Islands for a MUCH needed vacation.. But NNOOOoooo.... " You remember what you preached to me?? If you want it,, pay your own way." Yup,, he had me dead to rights....

[Walt]

Joe.. Is that your piece of work in the paper today?

Whine poverty,,, yet have bucks to go on a retreat....
A " staff retreat" for a so called "non profit"... Paid for by OPM..
( other... people's..... MONEY.)

[Joe Koyote]

what alternatives are there to "forced nurture"? -- crickets -- The conservative mind? Long on complaining absent on solutions.

[George Rebane]

JoeK 1157am - Joe, as you and yours have wont to do, you answered my 1056am questions with another question, and then are laboring me for not answering it. After you, sir.

[Account Deleted]

Joe - we are the solution. But you don't like it. It involves self control.
Not having it pre-dates consumerism by a few millions revolutions around the sun. In those days, if you didn't exercise it, you didn't live. Period. Today we have all sorts of protection of kids while they are growing up and (hopefully) learning self control. Those lessons are undermined by those that preach the 'right' of everyone to do what ever they want and expect that later the producers will be forced at gun point to hand over ever increasing amounts of goodies. It's a great selling point come election time. Self control can't be taught by those who have none of their own. Any more questions?

[Walt]

Your going to need to ask the government "we know best" office Joe.
Government has pretty much regulated " nurturing" out of a parent's hands.
We have been forbidden from teaching "right from wrong" to our children.
If we dare do so, CPS will be on our doorstep with a government warrant in hand.
Better get the new PS4 for your child before the kid brings child abuse and "equality" charges.. ( It's not FAIR that the other kids can afford one.) Or "the man" will insist on a "forced nurture" program FOR you.
Want an "alternative" to your "forced nurture"?? Stop voting for Progressives who are out to control every aspect of our lives, including what and how we teach our kids.
Charter schools do better jobs than public schools, yet needle bending LIBS despise charter schools. ( see what's going down in N.Y. on that.)

[Keen Observer]

Case in point in regards to the intelligence of government:

http://www.today.com/video/today/54826029?from=en-us_msnh

Apparently, the system is so efficient that it takes a 14yr old student to save government $130 million dollars.

[Bill Tozer]

Mr. Koyote got to the kernel by asking what are you guys going to replace da current system with (SSI)? One big fat fair question. Its like asking what are "we" going to replace BarackObamacare with? Certainly both are great questions that begs to be answered.

Concerning SSI, I will take a page out of the Dick Morris/Bill Clinton playbook and say "mend it, don't end it". Yes, that is a chicken squat answer but gets to the kernel as well. It has been around too long to suddenly end it as we know it. Massive programs ingrained in the American culture takes years of debates and more Blue Ribbon Commissions appointed before slightly tweaking the outer edges or kicking the can further down the road. Nothing new under the Sun.

I would start with Federal Disability as judges do not have enough infor or even a representative (civic employee) from the Disability Department in the courtroom to hear the peoples' side of the coin or to answer questions or offer input. A person on Disability takes a pay cut when they go on SSI. Come on in, the water is warm. The cost of the disability program is the major crisis that will go broke long before Social Security or even Medicare will. Its the elephant in the room that no one is talking about. That program will take us all down if not addressed.

Don't get me wrong. I ain't proposing kicking Tiny Tim and Bob Cratchit out on a snowy Christmas Eve. Nor do I mind paying for Tiny Tim's single crutch. I do want all cases reviewed properly instead of rubber stamping the applications. That is a start. When Texas and a few other states send out notices to those already on state disability telling them to go see a doctor and have their disability evaluated by a certain date and signed by their doctor (state pays for the Dr's visit) 25-40% of the disabled simply dropped out voluntarily from the rolls. Long time no come see. Image that. Apply that to the Federal Level and let's see what happens. Can't hurt and may save mucho megabucks.

The real problem is Progressives' broken thinkers. They are simply what I call control freaks. Force us to save? Tell us all day and all night that we are too stupid to think for ourselves and need them to do our thinking for us. They know how to run our lives and are better than us. Ben Franklin said never trust a government that does not trust citizens with firearms in their hands. Progresses are power mad. Oh, I could go on and on, but that tape has been played before.

Here is an article by Tammy Bruce that caught my eye. Ms. Bruce was once part of the Gloria Steinem original leadership and a lib to the max. On her lib talk show she noticed something. That "right wingers" that called her show were politer and a heck of a lot more cheerful than her lib callers. She thought "why are the conservative callers happier?" She saw and heard the difference and began a dialogue with her conservative callers to find out what made them genuinely more content than her angry lib friends. Needless to say, she got kicked out of NOW and has dared to keep an open mind. She still is a lib at heart, but she sees the control freaks the way I do and can articulate it so much better.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/mar/27/bruce-the-natural-match-of-liberalism-and-corrupti/

[George Rebane]

BillT 558pm - Amen, Mr Tozer!

[Joe Koyote]

George 12:26 -- My apologies.. I thought I answered the question by stating that I see SSi as a necessary and preventative measure. -- No I do not think the government promotes consumerism, Madison Avenue promotes consumerism, and to lay that blame on government is a bit of a stretch common to the conservative mind that seems to want to blame government (whatever or whoever that is) for all that is wrong with society. The reason Wall St. wants to eliminate SSI and create stock market based private savings is so they can get a cut of the action via fees and rob investors blind by crashing the Dow. They don't like the competition and there is all that money just waiting to be grabbed. And of course, as we all know, if Congress had kept its hands off the SSi fund there would be no funding problems what-so-ever. Now.. about alternatives?

Scott: 12:32 -- You must have missed the sentence where I stated that I do not disagree with the notion that people be responsible for themselves. " Self control can't be taught by those who have none of their own." I agree and this is largely responsible for the ten percent of gov't assistance recipients commonly characterized as "welfare queens." The other 90% are working people who have fallen on hard times. However, this does not change the situation whereby some people are not, for whatever reason, able to save. This brings me back to my original question. What should a society do with these people? What are the practical alternatives to a tax based system, charity, nothing?

[Walt]

Joe... Just what should a civilized society do for those that refuse to work, because it's easier to have "stuff" given to them? ( even by government mandate)
Why should my earnings be confiscated by government and given to some couch potato?
The "takers" now outnumber the "makers". And thanks to today's elected LIB, becoming a "maker" has become even harder. How many stacks of government regs does one need to "comply with" ( and at great expense)before they can even open the door of business? Thanks to LIBS, "free enterprise" is a thing of the past.

( I know.... I answered the questions for you.)

If your Progressive LIBS stay in power, "what to do with them" question will be answered. Work houses, and work camps will be back in fashion. Conceder it "history repeating itself".

Find a way to pay your own way,, or government will "be there to help".

[Keen Observer]

True Capitalism is and has always been a bell curve, in the sense that there must be a complete existence of both winners and losers for the system to work. If you eliminate the bottom end of the bell curve through redistribution (welfare) or other progressive measures, than you undermine the natural bell curve that capitalism creates, and the whole system collapses. Rather than complain about being at the hind end of the bell curve, I prefer to figure out how to survive in the economy and at least be in the middle of the bell curve. It may be hard to remember, but there was a time in this great country where people looked out for themselves and each other, without the need for government to offer a helping hand at every turn. Government has done a fantastic job of convincing citizens that they can become better citizens through assistance. Its not a hard sell to a growing number of people, to accept some form of welfare in exchange for votes, and the snowball grows larger with each election cycle. If our economy and society can't exist without a government offering significant monetary help, than the system is nothing less than artificial and it should not exist.

Bill Tozer, right on with your screed on disability. Offering disability to "unemployable" folks is a ploy to deflate the unemployment percentage, offering an overly rosy picture of our economy. Its a little known fact, but any person receiving disability is not counted on the unemployment roles.

[Walt]

Now how did I miss that the first time? (Offering disability to "unemployable" folks ) Good call...
There are libraries of gov. regs. on "worker safety". Trillions have been spent to make the workplace "a safe environment" yet there are record numbers on work related "disability".
It sure doesn't help when even MORE government "rule making" puts people "out of work" just because they take medications. " Drug free work zones". That's not just limited to the "illegal" kind of stuff. Then insurance Co.'s got into the act, and that helped thin the work pool. " What?? High blood pressure? You take meds for that? Hummm.... You could have an episode on the job!"
Pick your ailment. It may or may not keep you from a job you want.

Keen points out another bogus gov game of fuzzy math. ( common Core style)
The Unemployment count to make things look are fine and rosy. It seems they are down to only counting the checks going out. It used to be called the " U6". Now it's down to what... " U2"?

[Bill Tozer]

Somehow I still believe deeply in what The Apostle Paul wrote. If a man will not work, he should not eat. Think Solemn wrote (or someone) in the Book of Proverbs that a man/laborer's hunger drives him on. The operative words are WILL NOT WORK as opposed to cannot. It has always worked for me. School of hard knocks and character building for this wayward one. Swallow the pride and take a job washing dishing at night till I sorted things out. The Mayflower had "If a man will not work..." as their credo while on the voyage. Later, they had to re-implement it again after the disastrous first year in The New World. The second year brought abundance and chased away starvation. Each man was responsible for his own crop and there was food to share with others.

May seem harsh and uncaring, but it has always NOT been a matter of giving, but giving under what circumstances. Do you help or hurt a person by giving? Do you stand between a man and his self reliance and fortitude by playing the role of substitute for things he should be doing for himself? Also, I don't know if Paul meant males only because there were special allowances for widows back in the day, as there are now.

I don't believe there is a vast percentage of single males of working age what simply will not work. Even in the Great Depression there was a small percentage (4% or so) of unemployed single males that refused work when offered. Remember there was no unemployment insurance back then.

Knew a old timer that worked on Grand Coulee Dam. He said that if someone showed up looking for a job, the other workers (who felt threatened that the job seeker might take their job) would pick up their shovels and sledge hammers and physically chase him off. "You ain't taking my job" they shouted.

Sure, some are too proud to get their hands dirty. They unusually find a woman to take care of them, especially if they are quick on their feet and can find out in 10 seconds if the woman has a job, a car, and a roof over her head. They will float from Momma Baby to Momma Baby all their lives. When they are shown the door for being a sluggard and taker, they ironically develop hurt feelings and feel they have been wronged, lol. But that is not most folks.

Unarguably Social Security has lowered the senior poverty rate and lifted many of our elderly out of abject poverty. The original Act extended to widows and widows with children. $35 bucks a month was enough to chase away starvation as well. Don't think Social Security was meant for a Cuban citizen old lady to sneak over to the Dominican Republic, catch a flight to Miami and qualify for instant SS benefits paying more than my own Mother received. Something is not right with that scenario. Oh yeah I get it now. The Florida votes are important in National Elections.

Please call me old school. I love hearing it. Human nature is not exempted in this new age. Oh, before I forget, a neighbor young man/older teenager knocked on my door asking if I need help clearing poison oak or moving rock or digging ditches. Should I have sent him to the welfare department instead? Boy, that young man has his head screwed on backwards. There are easier ways to get some money than by the sweat of one's brow. Sell some dope or something besides toil. What a freak of nature he is, acting so old school and all.