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13 April 2014

Comments

Bonnie McGuire

When I look at Mr. Rebane's map of Nevada it looks like the Feds own it. Those who have been watching the takeover of all our natural resources can compare it with socialist Russia and Germany. Nevada is mineral rich. Years ago some people were digging a water well that that turned out to be artisian. There was a big battle with the gov.

I learned something valuable from the Weaver's Ruby Ridge horror story. Originally he was supposed to appear in court for owning a sawed off shotgun. He went to court, but wasn't listed so he went home. That resulted in a contempt of court warrant, so the Swat team went out to arrest him. A gov sniper shot Weavers wife who was near the door on the back deck. Then the war broke out? What happened there was a warning regarding our court system. Not many years some law enforcement and Judges targeted log truckers. A slightly overweight load was an excuse to charge Mel excessive bail, and in another truckers case the Judge applied past, paid for offenses to the his bail. Upon appearing for court on the appointed day none of the courts listed our case, so I went to the desk and asked the clerk to sign the summons so there wouldn't be any contempt charges for not appearing. She then assigned me to a court. You can read our experiences below that made us decide to quit trucking. Since then we've watched what the Gov's done to everyone who uses a vehicle to earn a living using global warming as an excuse.
http://www.mcguiresplace.net/A%20Point%20of%20Law
http://www.mcguiresplace.net/Modern%20Day%20Highwaymen%201
http://www.mcguiresplace.net/Old%20Lady%20In%20Tennis%20Shoes%20Is%20A%20Winner

Some of you mentioned what happened at Waco to save the children (who wound up being BBQed by their saviors). One of the earliest reports was that David Koresh had called the local Sheriff (before the raid) to check out the planes flying into an abandoned airport at night. Were they drug smugglers? The Waco survivors were just as quiet as the Benghazi embassy survivors. No wonder Hillary Clinton labelled those who ask questions "right wing conspiracy theorists."

Walt

I don't know where this was first found, or the person that posted it ,wrote it.
PRICLESS non the less.

Kevin

"twas the night before tax day and all through the house
the deductions being counted as we listen to Strauss

the liberals were joyous and toasted in the air
with the hopes that uncle Sam would soon make it fair

the progressives were restless all smug in their beds
while visions of ebt cards danced in their heads

and mooch in her garden and Barry in the trap
the taxpayers know they got a bad rap

when out on the mall there arose such a fury
Barry sprang from his alinsky book just to inquiry

away out the window there crashed with a flash
tore off his footie pajamas and threw out dana bash

the taxpayers gathered as vast as fallen snow
gave credence to the fury that burned down below

when what to my wonder did finally appear
a leader not corrupt and the insiders fear

and who could it be that brought on this rouse
could only be the freshman senator. Ted Cruz

with Paul and Walker the task is not small
let's take back this country once and for all

to the top of the senate to the top of the house
thrash away, dash away the corrupt sucking louse

as the thieves tremble at the hurricane before them
the patriots stare down with every right they condemn

an then come November we will finally have proof
that this country can be saved we will raise the roof

so get out there one and get out there all
let your voices be heard loudly not small

this is the country that's been bestowed upon us
with responsibility, integrity and deep trust

spring from you chair and give your kids a chance
to have a life like yours and your parents

these leaders fight there’s no fight too small
time to do away with the corrupt politicians, every one of them. all"

Barry Pruett

Steve: I am not disagreeing with you. Bundy broke the law (period). I am simply saying that sometimes it takes someone challenging authority to bring attention to injustice and an out of control government. Rosa Parks broke the law too...and no I am not equating Rosa Parks to Cliven Bundy...I am pointing out that illegal does not necessarily mean wrong. Was Parks' illegal activity right or wrong? History says (and I wholeheartedly agree), she was right to break the law. It takes controversy in the USA to bring things to people's attention...that is what Bundy is doing..."shining a light" as my esteemed colleague would say.

fish

Rosa Parks broke the law too...and no I am not equating Rosa Parks to Cliven Bundy...

I equated Rosa Parks to Mr. Bundy Barry.....it was glossed over! Bundy is in violation of the law, that is certain.....I wonder what set him off 20 years ago and caused him to take on this implacable foe and vile accompanying cheerleaders!?

Walt

Holder "broke the law" and international law at that... Yet he "walked away" from
that. Not all of us can hide behind Presidential skirts.

The DOJ had a restraining order against it raiding a gun shop. They ignored that court order and seized what they wanted. " Court orders? They don't apply to us." " Go ahead.... Sue us..."

There are laws on the books where government is required to turn over documents
through the freedom of info act,, but don't. Sounds like government "breaks the law" all the time. Who get's held accountable there? ( uh,,, no one...)

Back in the good ol' NH2020 days local gov. goons went trespassing for their "surveys". No warrants, just jump the fence and see what they could find to restrict the use of any property. From Elderberry bushes to vernal pools.
And before Steve jumps up with the denials of that even happening, I caught some red handed ( or "green" if you prefer)on my land. Self appointed "eco police"? or deputized "friends" of Dizzy Izzy?
Amazing with all the guns in this County, not one "county" trespasser wound up on a slab.
Where "law breaking" is concerned "government" needs to get it's own house in order. It seems to be the worst offender of "dissing" the law, since no one will hold them accountable.

Speaking of flagrant breaking of the law because " it just ain't right"
I give you the pot people. " Law or no law... I'M GROW'N!!!"
( and some even grow of FED LAND..)

Let's have some more "stoned" throwing at Mr. Bundy. He has taken better care of that land than the Gov. ever did. He can oversee my "share" of that public land.

Bonnie McGuire

Here's the latest concerning the Bundy family that CDA posted on Facebook.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/04/annabelle-bamforth/feds-planning-armed-assault-on-bundy-home/

Interesting and a little scary for all involved. Hope all goes well and good will prevail.

Walt

Bonnie.. I read your story.. Hat's off to you and your family.
Some of my past employers have suffered the same fate.

fish

Oh my Associate Bob is still suffering the vapors......egged on as always by his sycophantic coterie.

Editor’s note: As regular readers know, our community has been subjected to this hysteria.

And there you have it....Jeffys admission that he suffers from and inflicts his particular flavor of hysteria upon the surrounding community.


http://tinyurl.com/community-jeffy

stevenfrisch

Boy this really is the story that keeps on giving. One has to love it when a hero of the 'movement' lives by the adage, "women and children first."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/15/richard-mack-_n_5154606.html

Todd Juvinall

Aren't you a fan like Scrooge of thinning out the planet's population? I could have sworn you are a fan of abortion. Too funny.

Account Deleted

Steve - you need to have an adult help you out here.
I never said anything about shooting people in the head.
You just made that up. Then you fabricated a quote.
"You asked, "What is SteveF's response to that sort of law breaking [throwing rocks] that he claims he is against?"
The 'quote' is a mangled cut and paste that is not accurate.
The 'law breaking' I referred to was border hopping. Not rock throwing.
My point there is why doesn't the fed bring the same kind of enforcement to the border that they brought to the BLM land against a white conservative citizen?
When border hoppers start throwing rocks, the fed agents are told to run away. Would the fed agents in Nevada just run away if the white, conservative protesters started throwing rocks?
Another question to answer now is why did the feds take so long to take action against Bundy? It turns out they didn't really care until the crony 'green' deal Reid set up needed the land. Good to see the lefties here are all on the side of the folks they claim to be against.
In the end, Bundy will loose and Reid will get his way I'm sure. The illegals will continue to flood into our country. Once Bundy is put in irons, we can all breathe easier.

fish

It's brilliant Steve....a move worthy of a Chicago community organizer.

stevenfrisch

Oh for Christ's sake Scott you are just as dense as Todd.

You referenced people at the border throwing rocks. I knew what law breaking you were referring to, I inserted the parenthetical for the benefit of the readers. And I never said you said anything about shooting people in the head, its was a reference to Ruby Ridge..

My main point still seems to escape all of you bone heads...the FEDS did the right thing...they de-escalated the situation when the full panoply of right wing wacko assholes like Richard Mack, Ted Nugent and the Duck dynasty dude showed up ...along with a couple of hundred neo-nazi militia with automatic weapons.

Some bunch of fucking patriotic Americans you guys are. You think standing up for some guy who broke the law and cheated on paying his grazing fees is patriotism?

The issue is not the border, or abortion, or who once read rules for radicals, or any of the other derivative bullshit you are bringing into it.

I notice not one of you can actually counter the clear and convincing legal case made in the opening comment here.

Constitutionalists...HA!

Todd Juvinall

Scott, I think you got the dunce Steve to twitch. Good job. He is pro abortion, kill the babies, arrest the cattlemen. What a guy.

Michael Anderson

Todd, please stop typing. Every time you do, you are exposing your extremities.

You advocate against law and order. And you were once a county supervisor? How can this be possible?!?

Stand down, crazy dude Todd Juvinall. Perhaps you are suffering from PTSD. I will pray for you.

Barry Pruett

Interesting listening from the former number two lawyer at Dept of Interior. http://fb.me/3wOKZGUII

Barry Pruett

Http://fb.me/3wOKZGUll

Todd Juvinall

Bary what?

fish

A little more remote debate from Associate Bobs........

The Rebane Ruminations and Sierra Dragon’s Breath websites have a lot of explaining to do.

Hardly.

Say what you want about the "opposing sides" at least Frisch refrains from the constant appeals to emotion that we see from every other resident of jeffys rabbit warren.

Way to work RACISM into the argument Michael. After all, it is the the "go to" lefty trump card, the Swiss Army Knife of complaint, the one you play if it's early and you haven't collected your thoughts yet.

I know you can't help yourself, it's what you do!

Sorry your ancestor couldn't get a cup of coffee in the towns he was ostensibly sent to serve, mayhap he was a thuggish ham fisted idiot like Bill Pogue. You guys are winning every legal argument and still losing the war.....!

PS: You may have gone straight to the comment section and not seen it but jeffy breathlessly posted an excerpt from Heidi "All Dissent is Hate Speech" Beirich as if it was the revealed wisdom of heaven. Then again maybe it's another SPLC pledge drive and Morris Dees needs a new Bentley.

Anyway...for your edification.

fish

My main point still seems to escape all of you bone heads...the FEDS did the right thing...they de-escalated the situation when the full panoply of right wing wacko assholes like Richard Mack, Ted Nugent and the Duck dynasty dude showed up ...along with a couple of hundred neo-nazi militia with automatic weapons.


Wow...the Duck Dynasty guys were there? I don't watch the show but my kids like it.....why didn't you tell me sooner...I might have gone? Walt and I could have carpooled.

I'd also like to know how you decided the participants were, "...neo-nazi militia with automatic weapons.".

Is that legit or are you channeling DailyKos again?

Barry Pruett

Interesting listening from the former number two lawyer at Dept of Interior..

http://therightscoop.com/in-depth-mark-levin-gives-his-take-on-the-dispute-between-cliven-bundy-and-the-federal-government

Finally.

fish

Finally got to hear it Barry.....thanks.

Here's a little reinforcement from an "American Treasure".....(anyone want to hazard to guess why an our American Treasure has an English accent)?


http://www.steynonline.com/6266/the-plains-of-bureaustan

stevenfrisch

So I listend to the Mark levin piece when you posted it earlier today and the big problem with it is that it misrepresents both the process for listing the desert tortoise and the timeline of the case.

The process to list the tortoise was not 'unilateral'. The process is actually pretty complex, with multiple opportunities for both local intervention and congressional or judicial action.

The species must first be identified as potentially endangered, which is done through submission of a petition for listing. Federal agencies review that submission and determine whether or not the submission warrants action, based on the scientific evidence presented on it qualification as an endangered species. Findings by the agency of merit or lack thereof must be published.

If the petition is found to have 'substantial merit' the agency then does a roughly one year review of all relevant scientific data. This is what is known as a 'status review'. While all of this is going on a parallel process is used to determine if there are conservation methods short of listing that can be used to protect the species. These are done through a process called 'status surveys". At the end of the status review process, if the status surveys fail to identify conservation methods short of listing, and if the listing is determined to be warranted (into which a number of factors go including whether there is a reasonable expectation that listing and protection can save the species, which is not a foregone conclusion) the official listing process begins. The vast majority (more than 90%) of proposed listing fall out of the process at this phase and the species is placed on a 'candidate' list for future review.

All of the above activities are subject to federal rules under the Freedom of Information Act, and documents, studies and strategies are made public.

If the critter makes it this far it is officially 'listed' and the next step is that federal agencies propose a conservation strategy for the species and publish (in the federal register) a proposed rule. That rule has a set comment period during which anyone contesting the scientific data, conservation strategy or the listing of the species, may weigh in and submit documents. Those document become a part of the public record. All comments and data must be reviewed, including independent peer review by at least three outside entities, and specifically responded to. If requested, there is a hearing on the listing. Following that a decision is made to list or not list. If the decision is made to list the decision must be posted in the federal register.

At this point anyone choosing to litigate the decision has 30 days to take action. If not, the species is listed. If action is taken the whole process goes to the courts.

This entire process was established by the Congress of the United States, and upheld in federal court consistently since being established after the passage of the Endangered Species Act.

This process began in Nevada concerning the desert tortoise more than 6 years before the first legal action was taken in 1993 restricting Mr. Bundy's grazing access. 21 years have passed since that first court action was taken against Mr. Bundy and the car has been heard there times since then.

There is absolutely nothing 'arbitrary and capricious' about the decision, or the actions taken to enforce the court orders, as Mark levin implies when he says the federal government acted 'unilaterally'.

stevenfrisch

Oops..

"21 years have passed since that first court action was taken against Mr. Bundy and the case has been heard three times since then."

fish

Is the Tortoise still endangered or threatened? Are they negatively impacted by the presence of cattle?

Account Deleted

Still ducking the issue, Steve. Old LawnOrder Steve. Bundy bad - woof woof grrrr - sic em. Send in snipers. Standard practice. Just like the lib crooks that steal millions. Right.
Meanwhile - and this is just one of many examples -
http://articles.philly.com/2014-04-15/news/49159231_1_order-executive-director-ice-holds#OwVXK5slCe7So2Qw.99
We have highly selective law enforcement based on skin color and politics. Steve can only present straw man arguments and make up quotes.
Care to address the issue, Steve? Steve? Helloooo?

Brad Croul

Walt - you bring up a good example with your Bundy/ pot comparison.
What does the government do when cowboys or hippies break the law and start using "our" public lands to graze cattle or grow pot illegally - they bring out the helicopters and start cracking down and confiscating (pot, or cattle).

I don't see why you are so worked up about it.

But, what have the pro-pot people done? Yes, they got together to pass initiatives and laws to change things. Can't say the same thing about Bundy.

Another thing that gets me about Bundy - he seems to think all that land is his. Earth to Bundy: that desert "belongs" to "me" also. Maybe I don't want to have to have to "tip toe through the cow turds", lol!

fish

Another thing that gets me about Bundy - he seems to think all that land is his. Earth to Bundy: that desert "belongs" to "me" also. Maybe I don't want to have to have to "tip toe through the cow turds", lol!

Well Brad his family has been allowed to work that land for a very long time but this is the first time I can recall you mentioning concern over "cow turds"....just watch where you walk....and not just because of cow shit, I hear there's a protected Tortoise around too.

Hey, you managed to get the "lol" in....well played sir.

stevenfrisch

Posted by: Walt | 15 April 2014 at 04:02 PM

"Back in the good ol' NH2020 days local gov. goons went trespassing for their "surveys". No warrants, just jump the fence and see what they could find to restrict the use of any property. From Elderberry bushes to vernal pools.
And before Steve jumps up with the denials of that even happening, I caught some red handed ( or "green" if you prefer)on my land. "

Just have to correct the record here. Although I was not directly involved in managing NH2020, I did have a role reviewing its process and budget. There was no budget in the process for any independent field surveys of species and habitat. The data used was aggregated from existing sources and field reviewed based on aerial photography and the application of Geographic Information Systems. Some ground truthing of data did occur, to calibrate and check GIS accuracy, but only on public property. There is actually no reason to do this on private property since ground truthing is really only a tiny sample of geographic information.

I think it is shame that Walt did not call the Sheriff's Office and have these people arrested. Walt, does an arrest record or complaint exist? Do you have any documented proof?

Walt may believe this happened, he may even have had trespassers, they may even been doing surveying for some entity but they were not authorized as county employees, nor county contractors, nor do I believe they were involved in any way with NH 2020.

The reason I do not believe this to be the case is threefold: 1) there was no money in any of the budgets for independent biological survey's and in my experience contractors and employees do what they are paid for; 2), there was no process in place in the NH 2020 program for peer reviewing or incorporating independent real time survey data, only existing data, and in my experience doing so would have created a legal defensibility issue that neither the county nor the contractors would want to bear, 3) all scientific data including all review data aggregated from external sources was reviewed by a public committee and incorporated into the NH 2020 Natural Resources Report. I reviewed my copy after this allegation was made, and found no independently done field surveys.

Just more emotional, non fact based, annoying, irrelevant to the issue being discussed smoke from the crew here.

In short, its total bullshit.

stevenfrisch

Posted by: fish | 16 April 2014 at 08:27 AM

The desert tortoise is a federally listed endangered species. They are affected by cattle grazing, but with that said there are numerous places where grazing and tortoise habitat is managed concurrently, including on many of the BLM grazing eases that Mr. Bundy's neighbors are paying $1.25 per Animal Unit Month for.

John

Do you eat beef Brad? What will we do when there is no range land? What will we do when the central valley farms are fallow because the water has been sent to the Delta to save the smelt? Does any of this alarm you, or perhaps Steve? There must be a way to have a reasonable compromise on some of these issues that really do seem to affect "the greater good".

stevenfrisch

Posted by: Scott Obermuller | 16 April 2014 at 08:28 AM

Scott, why the hell would I address whether or not Michael Nutter wants his police force to collaborate with ICE? Last time I checked Philly is 2000 miles away and has nothing to do with the issue being discussed.

See friends, more dissembling, more irrelevant issues thrown into the pot, more bullshit from the smoke and mirrors crew here. Trying to make up for the FACT that they have absolutely no legal or moral case.

fish

...including on many of the BLM grazing eases that Mr. Bundy's neighbors are paying $1.25 per Animal Unit Month for.

I was under the impression that he was the last rancher working those leases?

stevenfrisch

Posted by: John | 16 April 2014 at 08:48 AM


Gosh John, it absolutely concerns me! I work every day to try to find reasonable compromises around many of these issues.

But I would not be too worried about running out of cows. Bundy was grazing about 900 head on 158,000 acres of federal land. That is about 175 acres per cow. And my guess is he bought hay and fed them at least 50% of the year from that rather than grazing. This is not very productive forage land.

stevenfrisch

Posted by: fish | 16 April 2014 at 08:53 AM

He is the last rancher working leases in a portion of the Gold Buttes [Google map it in SE Nevada between the east edge of Lake Meade and the Utah border south of Mesquite}. I actually love that eastern Nevada area, and Pioche just north of Mesquite is one of my favorite western towns.

There are ranchers working BLM leases all around Bundy to the north and east. There are thousand of BLM grazing leases in Nevada, and 18,000 BLM grazing leases to more than 16,000 ranchers on more than 155 million acres of BLM land in the west. That is about 65% of all BLM lands that have grazing leases on them.

Hope that helps put Mr. Bundy in a little perspective.

fish

I am fond of SE Nevada as well.....less south and more east though. Okay Stevie I got nothing else....well done!

Still wish the morons on both sides could work this shit out reasonably.

Brad Croul

John- nobody is saying he cannot graze on federal land. He just needs to play by the rules.

I imagine that when a timber contract is approved, and men and equipment move in to start work, that the rest of "us" who own the land, are excluded from, say camping right in the middle of the log decks.
So, if the BLM wants to lease the land to someone else (for more money to the US taxpayer) for a solar project, or whatever, Bundy needs to either pony up and outbid them, or find another grazing spot. Hell, a lot of cattle are bussed into California from Montana every year for better winter grazing.

Re: water, smelt, etc., we all are going to have problems unless we can direct some more rain clouds this way.

Al

Anyone know if there's a "Bundy Ranch Support Fund"? The Fund's intent would be to payback the alleged $million owed to BLM.
Once such a compromise is consummated, then perhaps other land-use issues and politics can be calmly resolved and discovered.

Todd Juvinall

So the BLM is so accurate about their budgets and their billings that we are supposed to have confidence in their totals? My goodness, these are the same people that are 18 trillion in debt in our name.

Michael Anderson

"Fish" wrote:
"Sorry your ancestor couldn't get a cup of coffee in the towns he was ostensibly sent to serve, mayhap he was a thuggish ham fisted idiot like Bill Pogue."

Actually, my ancestor was highly revered by all the normal people in the small towns on the eastern slopes of the Cascades. He was the guy in the middle, trying to balance out the competing concerns of the families who'd logged in communities for multiple generations, and the environmentalists trying to preserve what was left of the old growth forest. Not a very fun job, but he was really good at it.

The part he hated was having to deal with the 2% of the population that suffered from mental illness, the crazy radicals on the right and left who threatened him with physical harm and who were willing to resort to violence for their alleged "cause."

You wouldn't be supporter of those people, now would you "Fish?"

Michael Anderson

Todd wrote: "So the BLM is so accurate about their budgets and their billings that we are supposed to have confidence in their totals? My goodness, these are the same people that are 18 trillion in debt in our name."

Actually Todd, they're not the same people whatsoever. The people in the trenches, the US Forest Service and BLM personnel who do the day to day in the field, have very little say in what the bureaucrats in their ivory towers, their bosses, come with as far as budgets and billings are concerned. The guys in the trenches don't set policy, that's political stuff.

How come you don't know this? And when you were a supervisor, how were you perceived by the various federal agency workers who acted as custodians of our precious Nevada County resources? From what you write here and on your silly blog on a daily basis, they must have thought you were a complete nut basket.

fish

The part he hated was having to deal with the 2% of the population that suffered from mental illness, the crazy radicals on the right and left who threatened him with physical harm and who were willing to resort to violence for their alleged "cause."

That 2% is in every population Michael...actually I'm pretty sure it's a higher percentage than that. It comes with the job.

You wouldn't be supporter of those people, now would you "Fish?"

And as to my support of those people it would depend in the issue.

Walt

" What diff. does it make now? " ,, Steve, BTW.. I'm not the only one who caught "county trespassers". ( or "volunteers" if you care)
I know.. "so what? that was a long time ago". I also recall that "the info gathered would never really be used",, as county citizens were breaking out the tar and feathers. That little fiasco is what got the "green gang" kicked to the curb.
Just ancient history. ( but I still have a protest button)

Fish.. When the fur flies again down that way, I'll swing by and pick ya' up.
Civilians with full auto weapons?? Really? Well, that IS a state where they can be possessed with the proper paperwork.

Barry Pruett

If the desert tortoise still listed, how can officials get away with euthanizing hundreds of them? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20130825/us-desert-tortoise-threat/?utm_hp_ref=politics&ir=politics

Todd Juvinall

Michael Anderson | 16 April 2014 at 10:33 AM

Yep, you must be right MichaelA, they thought i was a nutbasket. LOL! Actually I was best friends with the retired Forest Supervisor of the Tahoe and he felt the same as I did. You are the outlier opinion you buffoon.

Anyway, we all watched as the Feds stopped timber harvesting and mining and tried their best to boot inholders and grazing in all the Fed forests in California and elsewhere. We got to see them lockup all the enegy in the Staicase Escalante and many others. Yep we saw them commit genocide in the small towns of rural California and the west. Yep, you are just a big government lover MichaelA and when they come for your livelihood to wreck it, you may just commit suicide as many rural Californians did years ago over all this. You are a convenient idiot for the lefty policies. You must be proud.

fish

....and in other news....the Lion of Sierra Foothills Journalism......up to.....calculating....calculating.....wait for it......still calculating....and the big board shows.....8....count them 8 big comments at der FUEhers gossip girl site!

Well done jeffy....way to galvanize the public with your rhetorical skills!

Russ Steele

The BLM was rounding up Bundy's cows to pay a million dollars (1,000,000) in grazing fees. According to documents the BLM paid a Utah cattle wrangler $966,000 to collect Bundy’s cattle. The Nevada Ag Commission said, no one in Nevada would buy the cows, Nevada ranchers do not deal is stolen cows. Yes, this is how the Government does business. Not thinking through the problem.

Walt

Then there is word of the crushed tortoise breading holes by BLM vehicles.
Is the ECO troops going to sue over that?

My question about local "public land" being closed has yet to be addressed .
"someone" said government hasn't acquired "more property".
Then what did Nevada City just buy and/or acquire? Sugarloaf hill? how about a pond? Kiss that tax revenue goodbye.
We have more open space that's owned by some form of government around here, yet it's always out to get more. ( For the pubic good of course)
Yet we have a certain demographic that demands even more.
Right down to trials that happen to be on private property. " we have a right!"
Forget the NID ditch tail fights? I recall the land owner getting screwed in that deal.
Then the state arm twisted property owners in the Yuba River Canyon to get that "wild and scenic" designation (and a new state park) THEN even "closed"
due to lack of funds!! ( for a time)

John

Steve, (8:48) good news that you are working to find reasonable compromises to some of these issues. Any positive movement to report? I am looking for some common ground, and thought there might be some around the issue of the federal government seemingly placing a higher value on everything above our ability to produce food. Bundy's food production may be modest, but add in the 52 ranchers previously forced out in Clark County, and we have displaced a major food production in one county alone.
Setting aside the very unsettling paramilitary actions of the BLM recently, does it not concern you that we appear to be waging war on our food producers, in the name of turtles, or solar panels, or whatever they really intend to do with that land. Does it not concern you that there are central valley farms dying because we are sending water to the Delta instead of to the farms?

Brad Croul

Russ, remember the $800 hammer? The Feds cannot do anything cheaply!

Todd Juvinall

Someone said it here. A government that won't enforce the borders yet sends in the paramilitary from a "landuse" agency to draw down on fellow Americans is truly warped and racist!

Gregory

Let us remember that it really is turtles all the way down, even with the euthanizing of the endangered critters by their 'protectors' because there were too many of them.

"The part he hated was having to deal with the 2% of the population that suffered from mental illness, the crazy radicals on the right and left who threatened him with physical harm and who were willing to resort to violence for their alleged "cause.""
-M. Anderson

Like that guy who ranted at Debra Saunders over her support of the Bush Crime family, warning her she was being watched? Or that same guy who threatened me and my wife with the same, all for the crime of being a climate brownshirt who might otherwise be emboldened to walk down Broad Street in broad daylight?

Sorry folks, but I've been in Clark County, Nevada and not keeping track of the usual ruminants. Frisch has the basics right... in that the Feds stole Bundy's livelihood fair and square, according to law. The problem however, isn't as cut and dried as a deadbeat refusing to pay reasonable grazing fees, as the BLM wasn't so much administering the grazing rights as they were squeezing ranchers out of the business of grazing cattle on the lands that had been used for that purpose for over a century. This wasn't done by an actual law passed by congress and signed by the president; just regulatory creep by the rentless tide of bureaucrats looking for things to do, eroding away at the traditional use that wasn't in favor at the BLM. Boiling the frogs slowly, without good faith. Bundy is apparently the last of 52 ranchers in business in the area, so I'd say his take on the situation was prescient, and that there are adjacent areas where ranchers have not been run out of the business isn't the point.

A prominent NV politician has been saying Nebraska and Nevada became states at about the same time, with similar expectations that Federal holdings would be turned over to the states as had been promised. Nebraska is now nearly wholly owned by Nebraskans, but 7/8 of Nevada is still owned by the Feds, and that is probably the largest motivating factor; not that the BLM could take the livelihood of Clark County ranchers grazing on public lands they (and the state and county) were never given the option to buy.

Regarding the old mess closer to home, Frisch still hasn't come clean regarding the NH2020 community meetings the SBC "facilitated" for the NH2020 process... towards predetermined conclusions that moved NH2020 forward, in what is popularly termed a "Delphi" process. Or at least tried to move it forward.

Todd Juvinall

Good points. I recall when the Germans in the 1930's passed laws to disallow Jews from owning property and many other issues. Those were laws but Frisch would support them simply because they were "laws". I think Bundy was using the age old liberal tactic of civil disobedience. His version of a "sit-in". Now the goal is to bring attention to bad laws or rules isn't it? Sure it is. So Frisch and MichaelA would probably support wholeheartedly a eco sit-in on the delta to protect the smelt but not support Bundy's sit-in. What a bunch of lib buffoons I say. So it is simply those libbnuts here pocking their side, nothing more, nothing less.

Greg, I forgot that NH2020 was the local attempt to foist Agenda21 on the county. So there you go MichaelA, another example as you asked for.

Account Deleted

Thank you SteveF for making my point. Perfect. Last time we heard from Ol' LawnOrder Steve, Mr Bundy is a scoflaw and we need the feds down there with guns and what not to bring order to the west. Because we can't have folks thumbing their nose at the LAW. But when shown in other areas of law breaking, Ol' Lawn Order Steve admits he couldn't care less if they flaunt the law. Steve claims he against the border hoppers (in principle) but flat out says he couldn't care less if there is or isn't any sort of law enforcement at all. That is the point, Steve. Why the massive fed fire power for white conservative law breakers and a total pass for illegal, but future Obama voters? I think we already know the answer. Total hypocrisy. Harry Reid and the Chi Coms will get their crony deal and Bundy will loose, Steve. Just calm down. It'll all be fine.

stevenfrisch

Posted by: Scott Obermuller | 16 April 2014 at 04:38 PM

Scott, can you point to where I said I "couldn't care less if there is or isn't any sort of law enforcement at all"

Now you are just making things up because you can't win the argument.

stevenfrisch

Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 16 April 2014 at 04:33 PM

What a moron.

First, the Nuremberg Laws were unconstitutional under the terms of the Weimar Constitution.

Second, the Weimar Constitution was subverted with the passage of the Reichstag Fire Decree, passage of which was unlawful since violence and intimidation were used to coerce the legislature.

Third, the Article 48 provision rescinding civil rights was unlawful because the opposition legislators, largely the Social Democrats, were either kept from the chamber during the vote, or murdered in advance of the vote.

Finally, Article 48 did not suspend citizenship rights in the Third Reich, thus the Nuremberg Laws were in violation of the Weimar Constitution itself. Since suspension of civil rights has essentially created a dictatorship, cases challenging the Constitutionality of the Nuremberg Laws were never heard.

The Constitutionality of these actions was decided at the Nuremberg Trials, where Wilhelm Frick was tried, found guilty, sentenced and executed, partly for his role in violating the Weimar Constitution in passing the Nuremberg Laws.

I repeat....you can not make your case. You are actually digging a deeper hole for your position. What a moron.

stevenfrisch

Oh, and by the way, Todd, you are so totally full of sh*t to compare the US today to Nazi Germany. There is absolutely no comparison between the legal systems. You may disagree with American jurisprudence and legislative decisions, but they were made democratically, and the solution to a law one disagrees with is to change the law.

That is where you and Bundy are one and the same; you think your opinion, your stupid, emotional opinion, is somehow different and more entitled than any other Americans.

That is the clearest example of anti-Americanism I can imagine.

You are not a patriot, you are a traitor to our values.

stevenfrisch

"Regarding the old mess closer to home, Frisch still hasn't come clean regarding the NH2020 community meetings the SBC "facilitated" for the NH2020 process... towards predetermined conclusions that moved NH2020 forward, in what is popularly termed a "Delphi" process. Or at least tried to move it forward."

Here I will come come clean, you are 100% wrong. There, I am clean, and you are a lying sack of hammers.

Gregory

Frisch, if you were winning the arguments you wouldn't be calling people names best reserved for you, Mikey and Brad.

Barry, thanks for the Mark Levin link. I thought it one of the most reasoned on the subject to date, and I was surprised to hear he was, for a brief time, the #2 lawyer at the Dept. of the Interior.

Gregory

"and the solution to a law one disagrees with is to change the law"

A major tool for changing a bad law is civil disobedience. In fact, if it wasn't for jury nullification and the lubrication of the compound in question, Prohibition might still be the law of the land.

stevenfrisch

Posted by: Gregory | 16 April 2014 at 05:25 PM

Perhaps you missed my post above on this very issue?

Save your false civility and sensitivity about name calling for someone who is not roundly called names by almost every poster here. If you gave a damn about it you would step in when your buddies are busy vilifying those they disagree with.

Gregory

"That is where you and Bundy are one and the same; you think your opinion, your stupid, emotional opinion, is somehow different and more entitled than any other Americans."

Wow, is Stevie projecting today or isn't he?

Michael Anderson

I see the creep is back. Whenever the creep shows up, I need to leave. See ya Greg, enjoy your black hole of depravity.

Gregory

Don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out, Mike.

Speaking of creeps, Mike over at Jeffie's has been a duesy, proudly proclaiming his admiration for his bureaucratic forbears and denigrating immigrants who don't love Big Brother federalism.

stevenfrisch

Posted by: Michael Anderson | 16 April 2014 at 05:38 PM

You know what, I am with Michael; Todd is just stupid, Greg is a whole different animal. I am out of her too.

Russ Steele

When the argument is no going to well for the left, they exit stage left! Good by Steven and Michael.

Todd Juvinall

MichaelA has been commenting then deleting his comments on my blog, numerous times over many days. I delete them. Then he comes to my blog and calls me names. I leave some delete others. Quite a little boy there MichaelA. Steve Frisch just can't win his argument and thus on cue, starts his name calling.

Regarding Frisch and laws. He broke a few is my understanding based on the liens and judgements for not paying his employee taxes for some say, $250,000 in the failure of his restaurant, Passages, in Truckee. (among other things) I wonder how he would have reacted if the IRS sent in armed SWAT and held him in their scopes to collect the taxes he owed. Hey Steve, what did you do with the employees taxes you held in trust and were supposed to pay? You have never answered that.

But, because we say a government of the people, by the people and for the people has become one against the people, we are now the bad guys. I think the left has become insane.

Russ Steele

Why did BLM try to bully Bundy? He may have prescriptive rights according an expert and the BLM agrees.

We are Worried Cliven Bundy Might Have Prescriptive Rights & He Might Use that Defense in Court.

http://freedomoutpost.com/2014/04/blm-worried-cliven-bundy-might-prescriptive-rights-might-use-defense-court/#3AHBkSbbTJfleh7J.99

So what exactly are prescriptive rights? Prescriptive right to property is an easement that gives some one the right to use land owned by someone else for a particular purpose. An example is using a path through Party A's land to get to your land; a prescriptive easement is allowed which gives the user the right to get to his land through A's property.

In most states, if a trespass or use of land occurs regularly for at least 5 years without the "owner" of the land taking legal action, prescriptive rights come into play. Because Bundy stopped paying his grazing fees to the BLM in 1993, but continued to use the land for over 20 years, it is possible he now has prescriptive rights to the land. That might explain why the BLM has not taken this issue to court and never bothered to file a lien against the cattle.

It looks like BLM's only option was to bully Bundy and he refused to be bullied. Now they have lost any leverage, as the public is very much against this type of excessive force, killing bulls in a steel pen, separating new born calves from their mothers, destroying water tanks cattle needed to stay alive, and pointing guns at families and friends without cause. They knew three days in advance the they could not sell the cows in Utah, or in Nevada. They ended up with 400 cows they could not dispose of on the market. The cost of those cows was growing by the hour. No wonder they backed down. Stupid is as stupid does.

Michael Anderson

Russ, do you condone Greg's behavior?

Gregory

Mike, how on earth do you condone your own behavior?

Gregory

"Some bunch of fucking patriotic Americans you guys are. You think standing up for some guy who broke the law and cheated on paying his grazing fees is patriotism?"
-Frisch 8:20

Bundy represented himself in civil court, since the Feds can sue you into bankruptcy without having to provide you a lawyer... that's only a right in criminal court. From the Washington Post:
"March 1993: The Washington Post publishes a story about the federal government's efforts to protect the desert tortoise in Nevada. Near Las Vegas, the Bureau of Land Management designated hundreds of thousands of acres of federal land for strict conservation efforts. "Among the conservation measures required," according to the Post's coverage, "are the elimination of livestock grazing and strict limits on off-road vehicle use in the protected tortoise habitat. Two weeks ago, the managers of the plan completed the task of purchasing grazing privileges from cattle ranchers who formerly used BLM land."

Many people were not impressed by the new conservation plan. "Cliven Bundy, whose family homesteaded his ranch in 1877 and who accuses the government of a 'land grab,' are digging in for a fight and say they will not willingly sell their grazing privileges to create another preserve." People who use the desert to prospect for minerals and to race motorcycles and jeeps also feel shortchanged. "'It was shoved down our throat,' said Mark Trinko, who represents off-road vehicle users on the committee that oversees the plan."

Bundy has repeatedly been fined for grazing his cattle on the protected land, fines he has not paid since 1993. The Bureau of Land Management, which oversees about 800 grazing areas in Nevada, responded by revoking his permit. Bundy has not applied for a new one."

So it wasn't so much grazing fees as punitive fines because he wouldn't sell his grazing privileges or stop the grazing.

Frisch, you're wrong. Again.

Al

Aspiring F-MA Kamp Kommandant Frisch (please God forbid) is a spooky hateful agenda-driven snarky boastful ideologue who
distorts our history by omission and ignorance(?) to intiminate the volk herein these pages and elsewhere.
Do due-diligence before you believe this -fed person.

Some examples of his scheise:

ATF and helicoptered machine guns killed the Branch Davidians for child abuse. Not true. The ATF siege doesn't raid for
alleged child abuse.

Ruby Ridge, in Boundary County (borders with Canada), Randy Weaver, was a government-entrapment victim,
(he and his wife tried to get away from the filth) and more (see Wiki).

Gregory is historically correct. As a member of an offical Local Sub-Committee during NH2020 General Plan, and as a
response to an official proposal to inspect all parcels of land for environimantal constrants, a Realtor and I were joking
that we should plant endangered species on the properties of the Delphi Technique-aided proponents as a lark and a lesson,
and thence to turn them in to the Apparatchik. The proposed onsite parcel inspections were subsequentialy shelved.
How about the current General Plan update schemes; what is up now, you concerned old timers, including me?

Gregory

"Gregory is historically correct. As a member of an offical Local Sub-Committee during NH2020 General Plan, and as a
response to an official proposal to inspect all parcels of land for environimantal constrants, a Realtor and I were joking that we should transplant endangered species on the properties of the Delphi Technique-aided proponents as a lark and a lesson, and thence to turn them in to the Apparatchik."

Thanks for the information, whoever you are. Perhaps GR can give me a head's up as to your identity.

stevenfrisch

Yeah, because so many of you are such cowardly shit heels that you have to post anonymously.

Brad Croul

"the managers of the plan completed the task of purchasing grazing privileges from cattle ranchers who formerly used BLM land." - anyone know how much the Fed paid the ranchers for the grazing rights?

These ranchers were not run off their own land - although, after a while they might have started thinking it was their land.

Al

Greg- per https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zw9GAh658_k , i prefer to remain Al.

Al


Frischenhypenpower Von Uberalless, Get it from the SS NSA, you useful Quisling idiot.

Bill Tozer

Very interesting and revealing.

"You know what, I am with Michael; Todd is just stupid, Greg is a whole different animal. I am out of her too."

Posted by: stevenfrisch | 16 April 2014 at 06:19 PM

Good thing you are out of her, Mr. stevenfrisch. She is actually pretty fine once one gets past the used parts. I know, I know, you are with Michael. I truly hope Michael is OK now that you are with Michael and out of her. A match made in Heaven for sure. It is a bit surprising since I considered Michael more man that you will ever be and more women than you would ever get. Politics indeed makes strange bedfellows.

Walt

Thanks for a little vindication Russ, I mentioned prescriptive easements
when this got started, and "someone" tosses that to the side without a thought. Hell,,, What does a ditch digger know?
How many times has that argument won in court around here? ( plenty)

Brad Croul

If the Fed was billing Bundy regularly (annually) for grazing fees, it shows that they, as "landlords", were just not getting paid by a bum tenant.

Also, you cannot take land from the Fed through adverse possession.

http://www.gabriellawoffice.com/?page_id=102

Gregory

Croul, only about $200k of the million dollars the BLM says is owed are grazing fees. The rest is penalties and interest, essentially for the Bundy's refusals to reduce their business to nothing like the rest of the ranchers in Clark County did.

Nevada news outlets (including Clark County NBC affiliate's Jon Ralston of the Ralston Report, who has been on MSNBC recently) are not giving Reid a pass for referring to Bundy supporters as being "domestic terrorists".

Walt

But the FED can take land FROM you, Brad,
Gov. is supposed to abide by the same rules and laws. ( key word.. "supposed") Those same laws that apply to you and me.

And just what land did he "take"? I don't recall him claiming ownership.
Did he fence off " gov. property" and throw up no trespassing signs?
Did he run off any other "citizens" at gun point? ( fed goons don't count at this point.)

As I see it, "his" cattle ( among others as it turns out) were using that land for cattle grazing LONG before it was "deemed" off limits pretty much for everything,, all because of a so-called "endangered" critter.
That critter and cattle got along just fine for 100 years with no conflicts.

Then the "G" men come along with a piece of paper in hand. The money at this point is a red hearing issue. If it really was about "money", Al Sharpton
would be in the courts as well, since he owes more than Mr. Bundy. And Al HAS money.

Brad Croul

Talking about averse possession here, Greg.
But the penalties and interest also show that the Fed did not abandon the land, as Russ and Walt are implying, by not evicting him sooner.
Anyway, he was not even a tenant, he had a permit to access the land for grazing.
Back in the day, the Bundy family should have homesteaded it, or done something to make it legally theirs.
Sounds like they were free ranging, back in the day.

I got a kick out of Reid's comments. The redneck mujahideen. What a hoot!

Walt

I recall "O" hinting at a "civilian army".. " As well armed and funded as "our military".." That's turning out to be the alphabet soup of government agencies. They ALL have SWAT teams. From the barbershop "inspectors" to the postal service. A government employee gets a badge and an automatic weapon... Instant "army",, and funded by the gov.
And no pesky "posse comitatus act" to abide by.

Gregory

"Talking about averse possession here, Greg"

No, we aren't, Brad. That's a straw man. The Bundys are claiming an easement for grazing, not a possession. Here's a simple explanation of the two:

"Prescriptive easements differ from adverse possession by not requiring exclusivity."

Bundy is not demanding no one else graze cattle there, or not tresspass for things like prospecting or dirt biking. He just wants to let his cattle graze there like they have for over a century, and apparently intends to keep doing it. In addition, there is some evidence the BLM is concerned if they take him to court again, they will lose on a prescriptive easement argument, especially now that he's a darling of the Right and can expect help with legal expenses. His loss on appeal to the 9th Circus was when he was representing himself, opposing BLM lawyers.

Brad Croul

Thanks for the clarification Greg, but, as far as taking something from the Fed - you cannot.

"it is not possible to obtain a prescriptive easement against land held by local, state and federal government. The courts have long held that “time does not run against the King.” See also Civil Code Section 1007."

Gregory

Brad, it isn't a taking if simple grazing fees are paid, and Bundy paid them until the BLM started turning the screws to run him and all his neighbors out of business. Now only Bundy remains.

$200k is the back grazing fees. I suspect the $200k would be forthcoming were Bundy granted a long term promise to allow 1000 head to graze as before, for the per head grazing price for similarly (un)productive land. The nutcase 'the Feds have no right' rhetoric was born out of BLM intransigence. Time to dial it back. It's also time to start turning more of Nevada to Nevadans, more of California to Californians, in fact, more of everything to the west of the continental divide to the states that are west of the continental divide.

Russ Steele

AN INCONVENIENT RANCHER: BLM Docs Show Feds’ Solar Plan Targets Bundy for Elimination

This is an interesting read. The issue was having a place to put the tortoise that were going to be harmed by the solar farm and had to be moved. BLM needed the areas were the Bundy cows were grazing to store the tortoises. The BLM documents actually mention the need to move Bundy.

Read HERE, including screen captures of BLM documents, that for some reason vanished from the BLM website.

Walt

This keep getting better and better, Leftys keep working the " there is no there,, there." angle, yet " More upon more" is getting dug up that says otherwise. The BLM using IRS tactics.. Who would have thought?
Scrub pubic accessed materials at all costs.
The facts don't fit the excuses from the "G" man.

Brad Croul

You guys are such drama queens! Do you envision a hamburger shortage if Bundy goes away?
You are all worked up into a lather over some desert scrub lands.
The Fed is changing the land use from ag to industrial scale power generation. Bye, bye Bundy, hello construction jobs, employment, energy production.

What happened to the goal of energy independence?

What would have been worth fighting for would have been to save the farm land in LA and Orange Counties, for example instead of paving it over, or saving Owens Lake. I don't give much of a hoot about some goomba graveyard outside of Vegas.

Wanna hear about some real injustice, check out the internment of the Japanese Americans during WWII and what happened to their lands.

Are you forgetting that this is our national security we are talking about? We are power junkies, we need all the electricity we can get. If the drought continues, we will not have water enough in our dams to power the turbines, etc.


Walt

With all the fun and games to feed the news outlets, one thing has been left in the shadows. Our food supply. Just about every food group has been
hit by some problem. From pork to fruit and veggies. Beef? That's for the rich foke now... Prices have gone up and less in the package. And our growing season has hardy started. Forget Ca. production. It's toast.

fish

Jesus Brad...take it easy on the strawmen....try not to burn them all at one sitting.

RL Crabb

I always remember that scene in Soylent Green when Chuck Heston steals a chunk of beef from the dead rich guy's apartment and he and Ed G. Robinson cook it up. Ed is old enough to remember what beef was like, and the experience of tasting it again drives him to tears.

We're headed in that direction. Someday you'll run into some guy outside of McDonald's screaming "Quarter pounders are PEOPLE!"

Walt

Brad must have attended that turtle soup party the night the turtle preserve
ran out of other people's money.
BTW Brad, how about those "solar fried" birds at the other solar sites?
Even endangered feathered friends are turning into charcoal cinders before they hit the panels. Just casualties of LIB crony capitalism. That makes it all better.

Account Deleted

"Are you forgetting that this is our national security we are talking about? We are power junkies, we need all the electricity we can get."
Brad - please calm down and pay attention to facts. All solar facilities need non-solar hydrocarbon fueled facilities of equal output to be viable as a reliable source of electricity. Then there is the matter of getting the electrons to some one who will actually use them. Who pays for that? Not the folks reaping the profits of this crony deal. Obama is proudly shutting down far more kilowatts of electricity production than this solar farm will ever produce. This is not about our natl security at all. This is about a crony deal for the wealthy in which some small fry named Bundy decided to dig in his heels and gum up the works. I'm not on his side, just appalled at the folks lined up to lick Harry Reid's boots. National Security? What kind of factual vacuum do you libs live in? The same outlay for this money pit would put solar panels on thousands of roofs and not need any backup plant or new transmission lines to give a superior ROI for electricity production. But then Harry and his cronies wouldn't get their big pay off and that makes lefties cry at night.

Gregory

RL, two words... Soylent Biodiesel.

Brad, with current extraction technologies, the US has centuries of fossil fuels available, and if shorter term crude is more to your liking, either get Obama to approve the Keystone pipeline, or elect D's, R's and even LIBs to the Congress to get a veto proof majority supporting it.

fish

Someday you'll run into some guy outside of McDonald's screaming "Quarter pounders are PEOPLE!"

I can only hope that this happens.....it means they've finally switched from the laxativeburger they're using now.


McDonalds.....blecch!

Walt

Processed hippy as fuel? But what of the high THC content? Hippy's have caused enough engine damage as it is...

Todd Juvinall

Jeffrey Dahmer would be the clown? Too funny!

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