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27 June 2014


larry wirth

Well, George, it would seem that while ancient alchemists utterly failed to transmute lead into gold, the liberals who rule California have definitely evolved a method to transmute gold into lead. Long Live SoJ! L

Weldon Travis

George ~

This is a comprehensive, well-thought analysis and projection. Your sagacity and style as a Devil's Advocate are impressive.

It is a pleasure to have you on the Nevada County Steering Committee.

Joe Koyote

" Democracy relegates matters of state and policy to the whims of an emotionally volatile, easily manipulable, and poorly informed electorate. That is why the Founders gave us a democratic republic built on the federal model in which laws were made by people choosing representatives based on the popular vote and geographical jurisdictions."

How is the "federal model" any different from a pure democracy in terms of outcome? Uninformed and misinformed people still cast their votes for representatives who, in reality, could give a crap about their constituency, but care a whole lot about those who donate to their campaigns. At least in a democratic model the voters (stupid and otherwise) have a say in the outcome. Republic style governance is more easily controlled by those interested in maintaining the status quo because their are fewer people to buy off. The voters get to choose between twiddle dee and twiddle dumb both of whom are in bed with the big money machines that finance their campaigns.

For those who claim that government "buys" the votes of the lower economic classes through welfare, etc., turnout records from the 2012 election tell us that those with incomes above $50k turned out in 15% greater numbers than those with incomes below $50k (which was the lowest differential in decades). Since most elections are decided by percentages far less than 15%, it seems that the lower economic groups that typically support Democratic candidates really don't have as much of a say in the outcome as those who make more. Because elections are mostly decided by who buys the most media and given the Citizens and McCutcheon decisions, monied interests with millions of dollars to "donate" (versus the rest of us with spare change) have gained a significant advantage in getting like minded politicians elected, i.e. those interested in maintaining the corporate status quo, that continues to "guide" our nation down the drain while fattening their wallets at a rate that rivals the pre-crash roaring 20's.

George Rebane

JoeK 936am - I'm sure there is at least one salient point re SoJ hiding in there somewhere. Please help us out.


Any "new state" needs to think ahead when the state "Constitution" is written. Other than the obvious, (like chiseling the 2ND Amendment in stone as originally intended and written for instance) making damned sure state government employees can't unionize, and the private side, is "right to work".. Union or no union.

The Left is probably drooling at the thought of "new states". Just more to take over and control. Extra Progressive House and Senate seats to help keep the "business as usual" in play.

George Rebane

Walt 1110am - Your thought about the "drooling" Left is very depressing. It portends a national metastasis that can't be stopped save by shooting the patient. Let's see how bipartisan the SoJ movement becomes. As you correctly observe, it all depends how the SoJ's constitution is written, and that will be done prior to statehood.

The real problem comes afterward as free enterprise states outperform socialist states, and then attract liberals to where the grass is greener. Every such immigrant arrives tainted with ignorance and hubris with visions of new taxes and regulations dancing in their heads. And invariably they immediately get busy soiling their new sandbox with no idea about what made their old home unpalatable. Look what is happening to the counties in the Sierra.


JoKe, I see you've been invited to not post at Pelline's by Pelline. Welcome to the club, and it's nice to see you lack the lickspittle gene he requires of his trusted followers.

Regarding the proposed State of Jefferson, burdened with its share of Sacramento's debt Jefferson would be in the same pile of crap. The best path from here is letting the undeliverable public pensions bankrupt the state and then let adult supervision sort it out. Maybe operate as the Territory of California for a couple years, then let two or three States rise in its place.

Todd Juvinall

Pelline booted JoeK?. Hell, maybe we can be friends JoeK? Wonders never cease! The enemy of my enemy is my friend! LOL!


JoKe, I see you've been invited to not post at Pelline's by Pelline. Welcome to the club, and it's nice to see you lack the lickspittle gene he requires of his trusted followers.

JoeK....what earned you the "Flabby Death Sentence"?

Odds on who gets kicked off the island next?


I didn't mean to rain your parade Doc.,, I just have a good understanding of how Progressives think and operate.
Including turning on,, and eating their own, as it seems in Joe's case.

When (and if) the new state(s) Constitution is written, there needs to be a provision about keeping illegals out, and making sure the FEDS can't ship them in by plane, train and automobile. Nancy "crack pot" Pelosi was down on the boarder welcoming the waives of illegals that "O" invited in. I say house them in her constituent's and supporters homes. The list of "willing" innkeepers can be found at the state elections office.

On a side note, our local Bundy "expert" is going to have kittens upon this news. The Bundy supporters have a new mission.

Steve has been silent on the news of the Mexican military shooting at our boarder patrols by helicopter.
If we had done that, think a simple apology would have done the trick?

Bill Tozer

Emperor Fattis Maximus gave Mr. Koyote the boot? That is so rude. Where is Brother Ben when you need him? Even Bro Ben never got the boot from here. He just took his ball and went home.

Cheer up Mr. Koyote. I imagine you have been kicked out of a lot better places than that. Get even. Unfriend Fattis on Facebook. That is how we do things in 2014. Flipping the bird is soooo yesteryear.

Bill Tozer

Walt, looks like we are in good company. Wonder if the Northeast part of CA will ever resemble the NE part of the USofA?


Dr Rebane, it is a long shot. Do you think for one second that the control freaks down south would ever give up one inch of their authoritarian turf without a fight? They are big, we a small. They control, we are ordered what to do.

I suppose we could pull a Gandhi as simply ask them to leave. But Gandhi was dealing with the civilized British who instituted a system of laws and justice and already put them in place, not some totalitarian regime in Sacramento.


Nope,, can't let the young ones be exposed to anything that may let them think for themselves. It flies in the face of their Liberal indoctrination. The school supplied tablets that the schools supply at taxpayer expense probably have a self destruct program built in if any unapproved political and religious website is accessed.

George Rebane

BillT 455pm - Methinks I answered your 'long shot' question in the title, and addressed the 'turf' part in the second to last paragraph. Mr Tozer, the purpose of this piece was not to paint a yellow brick road to SoJ; quite the contrary.

Russ Steele

Walt @05:06PM

I worked on a NCTV Global Warming Project and we met in the School District Office. A question came up and I tried to use a computer on the desk to search Google, It was blocked. I tried Bing, blocked, then I was informed that all search engines are block on the school network.

A couple of years later, I was asked to make a presentation at the High School. My presentation was in realtime, and required Microsoft Silverlight. Turns out that Silverlight was blocked and the IT person had to go to the server and remove the blockage, before I could present. So what we have is a high speed network that the taxpayers are paying for that is almost unusable as an education tool, no search engines, no realtime presentation of data. Why do they need a gigabit network? What is it really used for, Michael Anderson might shed some light, as it was his IT person that turned on Silverlight.

Joe Koyote

George 9:52-- Democracy relegates matters of state and policy to the whims of an emotionally volatile, easily manipulable, and poorly informed electorate. That is why the Founders gave us a democratic republic built on the federal model in which laws were made by people choosing representatives based on the popular vote and geographical jurisdictions."
The relevance of my post was not so much about SoJ itself but rather your supporting statement, that a republic better serves the interests of the people than a democracy. My point is that given the current role of media and money in our elections it really wouldn't make much difference either way. The "easily manipulable" are still going to get manipulated.

Bill Tozer

Dr. Rebane, of course you spelled out the long shot and turf questions and answered them splendidly. Just pointing out my favorite topic at the root of the Great Divide: Human nature and its lust to be the center of the universe and its insatiable seeking of prestige and controlling others. Perhaps we can show them all the money they would save on roads and fighting forest fires and what little we have to add to the State Treasury. Heck, we probably cost the State more than what we are worth.

But, then again, "can't never accomplished anything." The former mayor of Nevada City has that attitude, I will get her credit for that. So does Obama. I report, you decide.

Joe Koyote

re: Pelline's blog: I called him on making a spectacle of a resident's (who was born here) opinion about the lights in Nevada City in his ongoing tiff about The Union and told him I thought he ought to give it a rest, so he told me to give it a rest. It's mostly pretty boring there, at least here in the lion's den I can get my blood pressure up now and then. I don't take it personally and you shouldn't either. It's all a bunch of bullshit anyway. It just depends on which "great scholar/theorist of the week's" bullshit you want to believe or not. The rest of it is public relations and propaganda carefully chosen just to push your particular buttons. It's a sham and a scam. Why would anybody think the Great State of Jefferson would be any different?

Russ Steele

I signed the State of Jefferson petition, but I am in Gregory's camp, nothing is going to happen until the State of California goes broke and the bone pickers move into salvage the remains.

The best path from here is letting the undeliverable public pensions bankrupt the state and then let adult supervision sort it out. Maybe operate as the Territory of California for a couple years, then let two or three States rise in its place.

I find this more probable than the formation of a new state. Action will only come when chaos takes control of the situation. May we all be one of the survivors.

Patty Haley


Barry Pruett

Russ: You bring up an interesting point. When California is bankrupt, can folks simply create another state in oreder to avoid the bill? That does not seem fair.


Barry, in short, no, although the subject is terra incognita as no state has ever gone bankrupt. I assume you've passed more bankruptcy law classes and Bar exam questions than the rest of us; it's clear some sort of process analogous to what bankrupt individuals and cities have to endure would have to be put into place.

Bills that cannot be paid in full will not be paid in full. But they will be paid. Retirees will make do with less, but that reckoning will be kicked down the road as far as it can go.

Joe Koyote

re: ouster from foothills report. -- I forgot to share what the clincher was for my disgrace and ouster. I compared Pelline's rants about The Union to conservative rants about Benghazi. That is what put him over the edge.

George Rebane

Administrivia - I've moved the mudball conversations to 'Sandbox - 29jun14' so that posterity will not be denied the record of the exchange. Please keep the comments here at least hyperbolically relevant to SoJ. There are some good thoughts you've already entered here that could use expansion. Thanks.

Barry Pruett

Without reading the Constitution, I am pretty sure a state cannot file bankruptcy. It is an interesting proposition, but let's word it differently. If California is divided into six states for instance, who must pay the unfunded liabilities? Ultimately, some bosy has to be on the hook should CalPers under perform...


Barry, no one has claimed a state could file for bankruptcy. It can't, there is no Chapter; there is no such thing. However, the State of California is probably technically insolvent. Unless you have a system where a judge can order taxes to be raised or to require current services like police, fire and education to be eliminated in order to pay for police, fire and education pensions, there really isn't a way for a judge to force payment of pensions that have been overpromised, underfunded and mismanaged for years.

Let's not forget, many of those jobs Bain Capital shipped overseas were to make money for CalPERS and CalSTRS. They were (and are) desperate for the big returns needed to meet their big promises. Romney's BC gave it to them, and indications are they remain accepting of inordinate risks.


A couple of weeks ago, Chuck Frank wrote a column in the Union extolling the virtues of SOJ and inviting support. I sat down and wrote the following which is what the "left" would fear:

"Mr. Frank’s desire to have the state of Jefferson is understandable and alarming. Politically its understandable because the hard right desires to get out from under Sacramento and have their own fiefdom. However, the last thing they want is to actually get Jefferson established, hold an election, and get a majority of Democrats…..sort of like having Satan lead Sunday School. They have a ground-up game of capturing all city/county positions and driving on toward control in the capitol. California, as a whole, looks to have long term Democratic control….(darn that rotten coast!)….so lets carve out our own rural state filled with conservatives. Boy oh boy, we’ll have “open carry” of firearms everywhere, we’ll privatize all natural resources, we’ll eliminate 90% of all regulations, and there will be minimal consideration of the environment in any contest between the environment and business. Heck, we’ll have suction dredging for gold on all rivers and OHV’s can roar up and down any forest road. You can frack anywhere you want and we’re going back to leaded gas. It will be a money making heaven and farm water will take total priority over fish. In fact, there will probably be a nice highway sign that says, “Welcome to Jefferson! …. environmentalists will be shot on sight….with lead ammunition.”

This is hyperbole but not entirely! Since you're on the SOJ steering committee I'll remind you of something you said back during the Bundy flap:

"Save for military bases (an arguably constitutional provision), why does the federal government claim ownership – laughably in the name of ‘the public’ - of large parts of the country? Save for preserving certain particularly scenic locales as public parks, why do states need to own land? (I find federal ownership of land for parks and recreation to also be constitutionally unfounded.) Yes, there are reasons for state governments to share control of ‘infrastructure land’ that contain navigable rivers, flood control dams and levees, and water reservoirs, but owning thousands of square miles of open range, mountains, and forests, the case for such has no reasonable constitutional basis."

After reading that I also jotted down what the left would fear:

"Excuse me? So what entity is going to decide which "scenic locales" get to be saved? .....and if you did that, how crowded do you think those few "scenic" places would become? Are we going to save the few big names (Yosemite Valley, Yellowstone, etc.) but allow all the rest to go up for sale? Can you imagine some Texas billionaire buying the John Muir Wilderness for his own private scenic retreat? How about driving from Auburn to Lake Tahoe and every square inch of forest, as far as you can see, is privately owned? We all need wilderness to maintain our sanity and we are locally blessed to have so much of it to roam. The scary thought is that if Ted Cruz became President, and 70% of congress was Tea Party, these guys actually might try to sell it all off. That would be a developers dream and a nightmare for humanity. What you allow in one state has consequences in neighboring states and possibly for the entire nation...sort of like the stupidity of having a "no smoking section" in an open restaurant. (The "downstream" eastern seaboard states now suing a dirty coal plant in Pennsylvania is an example.)

Have I captured what the anti-SOJ fight would be? Question: If you were elected Governor of Jefferson, and your legislature were all Rebane clones, what would you do in your first 100 days?



There's no need to worry about the proposed State of Jefferson because it's not going to happen. Other than a sending a message why bother to go through the exercise at all when if we merely wait another 25 years or so the United States fractures due to excessive debt, unsustainable promises and conflicting ideologies.

Todd Juvinall

When there i a rumbling of discontent in the peasantry, things like the State of Jefferson arise. It will not come to pass but it does send a message to the "bosses" that they have some "fixin" to do to mollify we, the great unwashed. So, they placed the ability to create things like "constitutional conventions" and other "people based" initiatives into the Constitutions. What you have to read is the steps to accomplish those things. First off, all must start with a vote of the "bosses"!

The initiative is really the only way to change things short of revolution. Of course the "courts" have become part of the "bosses" and usually toss the people's efforts on the pooh pile so we have that to also overcome. But, if you want a State of Jefferson, change the Constitution through the initiative first, then implement after that is accomplished.


The State of Jefferson won't be happening, but this will be:
“We are promising employees benefits that we don’t have the money to pay for,” Pellissier said. “To the extent that Calstrs needs money to pay for these pensions, it’s going to come out of the budgets that are used to teach our children.”

The richest CalSTRS pension out there currently is $339K, about twice the pay Jerry Brown gets as governor. The highest paid K-12 administrator was Jose Fernandez, superintendent of Centinela Valley Union High School District, Los Angeles County, $633K.


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