‘The Battle of Bunkerville’

[Rough and Ready resident Weldon Travis sent me his “observations, conclusions, thoughts” on what some have come to call ‘The Battle of Bunkerville’ where earlier this year rancher Cliven Bundy and supporters faced down a company of federales who had come to confiscate his cattle and end his grazing rights on what we know today as ‘BLM land’.  I promised to post his unedited words so that RR readers could have another POV on the matter from a local Nevada County resident.  Here is a previous RR posting on the standoff.

And as the world turns, this seems to be even more relevant today as the local Left has become hyper-ventilated about the claimed existence of rightwing militia groups in Nevada County.  (BTW, I have no direct knowledge of their existence and therefore can add no information to such claims.)  In any event, it appears that we haven’t heard the last of such standoffs regarding federal lands and federal overreach in general.  Therefore Mr Travis, who belatedly did join Cliven Bundy’s supporters (his initial standdown letter here), provides a unique insight into the sentiments that motivated those who gathered at the Bundy Ranch last spring.  gjr]

Weldon Travis

This is a tale ~ my observations, conclusions, thoughts ~ of Cliven Bundy and his struggle against the Federal Bureau of Land Management (BLM) in Clark County, Nevada, 60 miles from Las Vegas and 10 from Mesquite, bordering Arizona.  It may contain errors.

It begins in 1864 when Nevada was admitted to the Union, necessarily ceding vast stretches of public land, almost 85%, to the Federal government; to 1877 when Cliven’s forebears homesteaded; moves on to1946 when Cliven was born and the same year that the BLM was established by President Harry S. Truman.  For me, my wife Irene, and our friend Malen “Jim” Jacobs, all Oath Keepers, it culminated (but has not ended) on Easter Sunday, 2014.   The previous week was reminiscent of Concord and Lexington and the “shot heard ’round the world.”   It was a day that will go down in our proud history, witnessing an intense showdown between heavily armed BLM agents and the Bundy clan, who were backed up by Nevada and other State militias, “irregulars,” Oath Keepers and other supporters.  The local Sheriff, Douglas Gillespie (a strong supporter of Obama), Governor Brian Sandoval and the Nevada National Guard had remained obscure.

A new friend with whom I shared a morning cup of coffee is a major contractor and developer, much of it around Las Vegas.  He was one of seven snipers set up on Interstate 15, a divided four-lane highway which was totally shut down.  As he trained his scoped AR-15 toward the stand-off confrontation, watching developments, some Nevada Highway Patrolmen behind him also stood watch.  My friend wondered if the shooting started, what would they do, who would be shooting whom?  Shortly, they asked him if it would be okay to open one lane each way.  Preposterous, I know.

[To continue reading, please Download BUNDY RANCH ~The Battle of Bunkerville.]

Comments

[Bonnie McGuire]

Thank you for your wonderful website where people can discuss all kinds of things. Hopefully with good manners. In this case you published Weldon Travist's story concerning his experience with the Bundy standoff, altogether providing a bigger picture for others to see.

[stevenfrisch]

I got your bigger picture right here Bonnie; Weldon Travis is breaking bread with people who are snipers, aiming at federal law enforcement officers, and ready to engage in their own personal massacre if things get messy, and holding them up as heroes.

That is total complete bullish*# in any law loving society. In the end the freedom of the people is protected by law and the antithesis is anarchy.

You guys hold these people up as heroes and you pay the price for doing so. You are guilty of encouraging people to engage in violence....nothing short of that.

Citizen 'sovereignty' in the United States of America is created by our Constitution, enforced through the creation of law, in the legislative branch, the courts in the judicial branch, and enforced by Executive branch.

Anything outside of that process is unlawful, un American, un patriotic and anti-Constitutional. One cannot profess to love and uphold the Constitution and draw down on the very people lawfully appointed to protect the Constitution at the same time.

You are liars when you say you love and support the Constitution. You don't know the Constitution and you don't love it when you hold one part of it above another...it is the whole thing or nothing at all. The Constitution is not a menu at the Lumberjack's.

You hate the Constitution because it protects the rights of 'others' who you see as a threat, pure and simple. The very thing that is the beauty of the Constitution, that it protects the rights of everyone, is the thing that you are resisting.

It is no accident that the rise of anti-government rhetoric is being encouraged in our County at a time when the lawfully elected President of the United States is a man who does not look like, act like, or have the same value set that you have. It is a reaction to the rise of a new American society, that is multi-cultural, multi-ethnic. challenges the leadership of the ideas of the privileged class of yesterday, and extends American rights to everyone.

You are not Patriots you are radical anti-American, anti-Constitutional right wing extremists and should be identified as such.

This is not some theoretical exercise in Hobbesian philosophy, it is right here, right now, in our home, and in our society.

When the next Timothy McVeigh kills 168 people in a blaze of misguided glory, or shoots two cops eating lunch in a diner and throws a Gadsen Flag over them, the blood will be on your hands, and the hands of those who encourage others to exhibit this sort of behavior, and the REAL Americans, will hold your violence encouraging rhetoric responsible.

You don't get to wash your hands or clear your conscience if the blood is once removed.

[fish]

Lighten up Francis......

Whassamater Steve....couldn't work calling Bonnie into the overall flow of your rant?

Will respond at length later ......

[Todd Juvinall]

Every time I read the Frisch I have to take a shower to get the crap he pushes off. Then I take a Frisch and all is well. I would say that a person who has no respect for the tax laws of this country like theFrisch, has no place telling anyone else about the "law".

[fish]

Lighten up Francis......

Whassamater Steve....couldn't work calling Bonnie into the overall flow of your rant?

Will respond at length later ......

Lighten up Francis......

Whassamater Steve....couldn't work calling Bonnie a nazi into the overall flow of your rant?

Will respond at length later ......

Friggin useless typepad!

[George Rebane]

This lap around the barn comparing the murders today's progressives attribute to the Right was well covered, among previous posts, here -
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2010/01/the-moral-economy-of-scale-in-murder.html#more
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM

I might add that these millions upon millions of citizens murdered by their own governments were very lawful killings done in very lawful countries.

The Right/Left comparison is also revisited with some relevant updates on Barry Pruett's blog -
http://barrypruett.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-left-not-right-owns-political.html

[Bill Tozer]

Now Todd, that is funny. Life is good. Nothing beats taking a nice smooth consistent Frisch every morning @ 8:24am. I just wish I could get out of bed before 9:00am on my days off. Laundry time.

Seems somebody is recycling the rhetoric from Obama's first months in office. Hate speech coupled with vitriol rhetoric is the sole reason for society's ills. Blame talk radio and Fox News (code words)for the bloodshed. Think somebody has been getting their talking points from Mr. Walker, the Nevada County 2008 Obama delegate. That is soooo last decade.

The only bloodshed I read about down at Bunkerville was Fed agents shooting young bulls and momma cows at random. Where is PETA when you need them? Oh, yeah, our government killed the desert tortoises behind closed doors. Lordy lordy, who knows what goes on behind them closed doors.

Yes, Mr. Nice Smooth Consistent Movement, there was bloodshed at Bunkerville and its all talk radio's fault for stirring up those angry old white men into a frenzy. You know "those types" that get all hysterical: old angry men men that spew forth vitriol, aka C. Walker and his mind numbed robots clinging on his every word.

[Todd Juvinall]

After I took my Frisch the morning, I contemplated. It is usually a liberals position that the government knows best is the people should become sheeple. That is until the government uses a "law" to come take what you own. Or deny you your "rights" in some "misunderstanding". Then after they have expended all their personal resources (or the public defenders) they begin to see the error of their ways. The best example is David Horowitz. The son of communist radicals, he was one until the Black Panthers whom he became acquainted with, murdered his lady friend accountant in the way back. He saw the error of his upbringing and the lies of the left and became my conservative hero! Until theFrisch, Herr Ben Emery and the FUE get their stuff taken from them, they will be the shill for big government. Once they experience the error up close and personal I hope to see them at a Tea Party or CABPRO rally. What do ya think? LOL!

[Gregory]

"You guys hold these people up as heroes"- Frish

Nope, sorry Frisch, that's your delusion, and they aren't "snipers" if they've never pulled the trigger. Fortunately, no one on either side initiated force; chances are that if the Bundy partisans were not there in force it would not have been a bloodless standoff, if one sided.

The murderous thugs rejected by the Bunkerville crowd, laying the Gadsden flag over their handiwork, had delusions of sparking a revolution, and were not "Gadsden" libertarians. The revolution didn't happen.

[Bonnie McGuire]

"You hate the Constitution because it protects the rights of 'others' who you see as a threat, pure and simple. The very thing that is the beauty of the Constitution, that it protects the rights of everyone, is the thing that you are resisting," wrote Mr. Frisch.
What a crock. I think the only thing we have protecting us little nobody citizens is our wonderful Constitution and Bill of Human Rights from stuffed shirts who swear an oath to uphold it, then do the opposite and tell us it's old fashioned and needs changing to support their agenda. That's exactly what those who wrote it said would happen, and why they wanted the nobody citizens to be able to protect themselves from the stuffed shirts. Just look at all the killing last century still going on. Our stuffed shirts who make laws without reading what they are first, also send our young soldiers all over the world to fight so called tyrants for freedom. Wow! Whose freedom? These brave men are killed and suffer terrible wounds that often leave them crippled and suffering great pain. And you know what? The over-paid stuffed shirts tucked away in their safe offices don't even give a damn about what happens to them. More broken promises like they made to those who settled the west, and those occupying the west.

Go hither you miners, settlers, timber men and ranchers and make it prosper so that we can later take what you accomplished away from you. Don't worry about those damn Indian squatters. They're used to us breaking our word. My grandfather was one of those miners who came west and because of him and his partners New Mexico finally got statehood. And so what? After all these nobody's did what they did to develope the west the stuffed shirts began making laws to counteract the promises made. Soon the spotted owl, turtles, lizards, frogs, wolves whatever the excuse...were given priority over human rights. Beware of such anti-human mentality, because those wielding the power behave like unfeeling robots towards their fellow beings. If it were not so, than why do we send our young men all over the world to kill and be killed, while the war undermining our Freedoms is being waged right here behind their backs.

If you think the stuffed shirts who swear an oath to uphold the constitution and our rights really care, or know what they are...think again. As Rand Paul said...they don't even read what they vote and pass in the legislature. Once we had to deal with an ignorant Judge who was abusing truckers with heavy bail for minimum weight tickets. Our Assemblyman asked people to contact him if there were any problems with Judges and Court. We did, and the legislative lawyer said it was okay to set bail where he wanted so long as the actual fine was what the law said. It bothered me, so I read the constitution. "No excessive bail." So I called the lawyer back and told him what the law was. He agreed I was right and notified the Judge. If no one sticks up for the truth the lie gets bigger and bigger until people believe the lie is the truth.

[Todd Juvinall]

Well said Bonnie. You and I are those nobody's Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson had in mind.

[Bonnie McGuire]

Here's the New Mexico mine story. http://www.mcguiresplace.net/Stories/Mogollon

http://www.mcguiresplace.net/Republic%20of%20North%20California
Here's the story of how a DA who said the Constitution's not worth the paper it's written on, and how to get rid of troublemakers who support it. Gov Reagon stopped it. Clint Eastwood made a movie showing the abuse of we nobody's.

[Weldon Travis]

I have reviewed all of the above comments and, aside from some disappointment with the juvenile vitriol, half-truths and misrepresentations, I have nothing to add, nor the time to devote, to this discussion.

NOW,are there any out here in Rebane's Ranchlands who would join me in exploring the efficacy of Nevada County becoming part of the 51st STATE of JEFFERSON?

Its Constitution would potentially ensure much less reason or motivation for me to respond to another Bunkerville, Waco, Ruby Ridge or Wounded Knee-type situation. See: www.JeffersonDeclaration.net for more on Representation, Regulation and Restoration.

[fish]

I have reviewed all of the above comments and, aside from some disappointment with the juvenile vitriol, half-truths and misrepresentations, I have nothing to add, nor the time to devote, to this discussion.

Sorry Weldon but juvenile vitriol is the fuel on which the internet runs.

Now....on to Gummi Bear Girl. (As an aside...my apologies that this is late my wife was good enough to take me out for surprise Mexican last night even though I really don’t need it! Negro Modelo will be the death of me)

That is total complete bullish*# in any law loving society. In the end the freedom of the people is protected by law and the antithesis is anarchy.

It surprises me not even a little bit that you are upset that we seem to not to be as deeply in love with the law as you Steve. Paragraph and paragraph of slavish, fawning, fellatial devotion to a million contradictory laws written by government functionaries not even the elected officials that ostensibly represent us. The majority of these holy scripts are administered arbitrarily or not at all unless it serves the immediate whim of our masters in Washintgton. Yes do go on about the majesty of the law while espousing president empty suits creaky health care plan and selective enforcement. Glad to see that the law is being followed so devotedly there.

I know that you've got it bad for the "law"..... a man whose sustenance is derived from rooting his snout through the arcane world of land use law where a misstep can lead to just what happened in Bunkerville. We never found out, I didn't anyway, what set Mr. Bundy to the monumental task of taking on the federal leviathan. It must have been something though....some junior interior commissar deciding to enforce something that had never been enforced before because it happened to be the flavor in the month in D.C. You know.....more beauty of the law stuff.

This and not even a jot about liberty or justice.

You guys hold these people up as heroes and you pay the price for doing so. You are guilty of encouraging people to engage in violence....nothing short of that.

Really? If somebody here posts a passionate screed about how a gaggle of older white men don't really love the constitution but secretly hate it because ...." because it protects the rights of 'others' who you see as a threat, pure and simple. The very thing that is the beauty of the Constitution, that it protects the rights of everyone, is the thing that you are resisting." and some hothead reads this and takes a shot at one or more of the regulars here on a sleepy Saturday morning will Stevie be turning himself in down at the local constabulary for incitement to violence? Nope! He'll now be going on and on about how in America we all have "free will" and there is no one who can compel another to action (my position actually). Did you lose your mind when Floyd Corkins tried to shoot up the Chik-Fil-A offices because they weren’t as passionate about gay marriage as was he? Go on....were you? Did you post a passionate screed about how we all need to respect the rights of the “other” then? Did you change your tune after we found out the Jared Loughner wasn’t the lefty Holy Grail on gun control...you know the fat, pick up truck driving, NASCAR watching neanderthal that sustains guys like you when you need your daily lefty “intellectual superiority complex” fix. Why poor David Sirota was left crying in his beer when he realized he wasn’t going to get to have “the talk”....the one where all civilized people acknowledge that it’s time...finally time to turn in all the horrible horrible devices of death that make us all less thafe.

To have the pile of bodies upon which to pontificate almost high enough and then have it be wasted because it turns out the guy was on your side!

Citizen 'sovereignty' in the United States of America is created by our Constitution, enforced through the creation of law, in the legislative branch, the courts in the judicial branch, and enforced by Executive branch.

Anything outside of that process is unlawful, un American, un patriotic and anti-Constitutional. One cannot profess to love and uphold the Constitution and draw down on the very people lawfully appointed to protect the Constitution at the same time.

Okay....okay...I’ll buy this premise. I mean this is they way it’s explained in all the high school civics books. But if so, why does fellow lefty cosmonaut Ben Emery go on and on about how the system is so antidemocratic man.....corporations are running the show man.......the politicians are bought and paid for man...a position I also hold Stevie. I had been laboring under the assumption that the system was rigged until you assured me that it was performing as advertised and pure as the driven snow.

You are liars when you say you love and support the Constitution. You don't know the Constitution and you don't love it when you hold one part of it above another...it is the whole thing or nothing at all. The Constitution is not a menu at the Lumberjack's.

Again this surprises me greatly. Two or so paragraphs down you are going to tell me that most of the recent unpleasantness is because the president is black yet his administration picks and chooses from the law like they are at the proverbial Chinese restaurant...a little from column A....two from column B....no don’t get that......the 2nd amendment special...that always makes Valerie throw up later.

All pretty selective if you ask me! But hey....if we learned anything at all from Richard Nixon it’s that it isn’t against the law if the president does it....right Steve?

It is no accident that the rise of anti-government rhetoric is being encouraged in our County at a time when the lawfully elected President of the United States is a man who does not look like, act like, or have the same value set that you have. It is a reaction to the rise of a new American society, that is multi-cultural, multi-ethnic. challenges the leadership of the ideas of the privileged class of yesterday, and extends American rights to everyone.

....and here it really is! Your real motivation...it certainly isn’t war, to paraphrase a certain lefty plagiarist, that gives you morons purpose..... it’s race! It’s why poor soft headed Ben can summon the will to get up in the morning in the globocorpocracy that haunts him so.

But you’re wrong again....I know, I know.....hard to believe! The worst of the anti government stuff from near history occurred during the Clinton administration. That’s when you proggie dimwits really started to feel your oats. Gun control, the Clipper Chip, Whitewater, Vince Foster....the first stab at nationalized health care, the whole Black Helicopter thing really got revved up then Steve. This is but a pale echo of that at best.

You know..... back before the president wore mom jeans and had a tan. Shit Steve Clinton was as pale as you and that's saying something!

You are not Patriots you are radical anti-American, anti-Constitutional right wing extremists and should be identified as such. This is not some theoretical exercise in Hobbesian philosophy, it is right here, right now, in our home, and in our society.

The phrase, “one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist” started with you leftys Steve. Again try not to be so selective in your outrage. And really....if you want to suck up to jeffy shouldn’t it be “our community”?

When the next Timothy McVeigh kills 168 people in a blaze of misguided glory, or shoots two cops eating lunch in a diner and throws a Gadsen Flag over them, the blood will be on your hands, and the hands of those who encourage others to exhibit this sort of behavior, and the REAL Americans, will hold your violence encouraging rhetoric responsible.
You don't get to wash your hands or clear your conscience if the blood is once removed.

Well so far the more recent bloodbaths have been perpetrated by legitimate crazies or guys on the left. Barry Pruett has put together a nice compilation at his site....you should check it out! And lets not forget Steve that those two who shot the two cops in Vegas were kicked out of the Bundy incident because they wanted to start shooting the moment they arrived.

Stop trying to stifle debate that makes you uncomfortable by linking those who merely discuss issues with the actions of others!

[Al]

Holy Makerel; I know who you are, P.J. O'Fish!
Write a wreaking foundational elements book w/ our host Doctor.

[stevenfrisch]

I don't think you get it Fishy, I am not trying to stifle debate, I am trying to stimulate it. The more you washed up old farts talk the better it is for me.

[George Rebane]

stevenfrisch 712pm - "washed up old farts", wow! In what sense do you think that we are washed up? Is it our intelligence, financial resources, energy level, availability to participate, numbers, ... ? Thanks to modern medicine and technologies, we will be around for many more election cycles. And our ranks are constantly increasing with people whose years have educated them on the follies of socialism that you and yours so ardently preach. Soon it may come to pass, that even you will not be able to convince the young and/or the stupid to sign up for government programs that promise them a bankrupt future.

[stevenfrisch]

Wow! I love that word WOW. Perhaps you should use it once in a while on people who compare other people to feces.

By washed up I mean people whose ideas are washed up. No matter what you do in 15 years most of those posting here will be dead. But our society and the world is progressively getting more liberal every decade.

By liberal I mean embracing a worldview founded on ideas of liberty and equality, free and fair elections, civil rights, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, freedom of movement,
freer trade, and increased prosperity and property.

The country will be run by a bunch of younger people who don't care about race, sex, sexual preference, nation of origin or tired old cold war caricatures of ideology.

So keep talking you old farts, it just accelerates the change.

Sleep tight!

[George Rebane]

re stevenfrisch 843pm - the attentive reader will notice 1) the hubris of this progressive reader, 2) that my 800pm totally evaded him, and 3) that he hasn't noticed that none of his prognoses for a progressive America are coming true, especially under the current regime. He and his live in a world of their own where notions like liberty and equality growing in equal measure define their reality. If, God forbid, they ever come to dominate America, then millions again will be sacrificed to the gallows and the new gulags - especially those who remember "tired old cold war caricatures of ideology." To me and mine, this man does recall the Lenin of the 1920s, the Hitler of the 1930s, and the Mao of the 1940s.

[stevenfrisch]

I know the history and philosophies of Lenin, Hitler and Mao my friend, and they are found in the hearts and minds of the 'true believer' like you. You may have lived under the yolk as a child, but you did not learn the lesson. It is the man who professes that others are the 'devil' who is most likely to be the devil himself.

Actually I think its possible that like the child abused by his father you have become the abuser you sought to escape.

[George Rebane]

stevenfrisch 929pm - Bravo! an excellent cap to our conversation that undoubtedly satisfies us both.

[Gregory]

Any worldview based on an inevitability of a worldview becoming dominant is indistinguishable from religion.

Perhaps David Horowitz is right... Progressivism is fundamentally a religious faith.

[Bill Tozer]

"By liberal I mean embracing a worldview founded on ideas of liberty and equality, free and fair elections, civil rights, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, freedom of movement,
freer trade, and increased prosperity and property."

Increased property for whom? Nothing wrong about freedom of the press, freedom of religion, freedom of movement....in fact, they are great things! Wonderful things. Gimme five on the white side.

Trouble is the liberals do not want freedom of religion. They want freedom from religion. I just wish those who chose not to believe in God allow me the same freedoms of expression to believe in a God.

Free and fair elections. When are elections unfair and not free? No more poll taxes. Did you mean the outcomes are unfair? Unfair to whom? Win some and lose some. Read 'em and weep, drown your sorrows or celebrate with party favors and stupid little hats on yer head and don't forget the noise makers. Just register and vote, unless you are a convicted felon in some states (which the Supreme Court has ruled States can set qualifications (citizenship and residency) and restrictions (cons). Cons are called cons because they are con men as well as convicts).

Don't think many liberals or trade unions relish the idea of freer trade. A little birdie told me that.

Freedom of movement? As a US citizen I have the right to move freely about my country. Never realized that was a problem. Haven't heard anyone running on the platform of freedom of movement nor ever heard of mass demonstrations/protests complete with Molotov cocktails demanding US citizens win the right to freely move about their country. I might have missed that though when I was hitchhiking across the amber waves of grain..

Speaking of movements, I thought about you this morning at 8:24am.

[fish]

I know the history and philosophies of Lenin, Hitler and Mao my friend, and they are found in the hearts and minds of the 'true believer' like you. You may have lived under the yolk as a child, but you did not learn the lesson. It is the man who professes that others are the 'devil' who is most likely to be the devil himself.

Ah....the inadvertent admissions are the best admissions.

Well Steve, I eagerly await your new world and sincerely hope that this generation does a better job than have we.

(No denunciation of SPLC and their hate influence over haterz?)

[fish]

......may have lived under the yolk as a child

pssssssst....Stevie...I believe you were going for "yoke" here...because living under the "yolk" is something different entirely.

[Bill Tozer]

Freedom of the press?? Surely you jest. Technically the press is free to do whatever they wish. But are we better or worse off when the press buries stories for partisan reasons? If you mean a free and vibrant press that leaves no stone unturned and lets the chips fall where they may, I am your biggest cheerleader. But, IF you mean a free press as it has evolved into, I just have to ask are we as a Nation of free men and women better off as a direct result of the mainstream press in 2014? Or has the press become an arm of the Ministry of Propaganda?

Note: I am not talking about opinions or commentaries. I am talking about reporting the how, what, when, why and to what extent of hard news. It was Fox News that broke the story of George W Bush's drunk driving arrest as a young man on the eve of the election. That is what I am talking about. With that said, here is a commentary:

http://video.foxnews.com/v/3642750747001/subverting-american-democracy-/#sp=show-clips

[fish]

Perhaps David Horowitz is right... Progressivism is fundamentally a religious faith.

A point that I have repeatedly attempted to get through to young acolyte Ben Emery.

[fish]

Speaking of movements, I thought about you this morning at 8:24am.

Dammit Tozer.....you owe me a new keyboard!

[stevenfrisch]

Ah, another day another shit joke. I am so glad you are putting that Ph.D. to good use George.

[Bill Tozer]

Dr. Rebane is retired. Its up to us to do the heavy pinching. Besides, "don't trust anyone over 30", the liberal mantra of the 60's. Ta-ta-ta-talking about our generation...

[fish]

Ah, another day another shit joke. I am so glad you are putting that Ph.D. to good use George.

You're really going to need to make up your mind Gummi Bear Girl.....If we, and specifically in this case, George are nothing but ...washed up old farts to what use would you have him put his advanced degree?

(SPLC....????)

[Todd Juvinall]

Yes fish, another "old farts" comment from the mushy bodied one. Heck, at 64 I am in much better shape than "mushy boy" and his mentor from NC! I guess when you are a liberal like Steve Frisch, you just don't have to do what you tell others not to do. With that, I am off to take my morning Frisch!

[George Rebane]

Gentlemen, I believe this comment stream went off track some time around 1106pm last night. For the continuance of this enlightening thread, please use the sandbox. A new one awaits.