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01 September 2014


Gerry Fedor

I find it to be very interesting when we talk about property rights and conservative thoughts, I thought those were very linked?

yet this discussion turns into waltz on personal vendetta on obamacare, gun rights, and I'm variety of S....

if you believe that we should have a ordinance that was created by law enforcement and their fabrications then vote no, but if you are like I and lots of others who believe in property rights and that law enforcement should not build laws then vote YES on measure S.

if you believe everything that law enforcement tells you, then I have a beautiful bridge in San Francisco, it needs a little painting occasionally, that I will sell you for $1.00.

Paul Emery


Consistent with your concern expressed in your 9:33 "I do believe in selected application of collective prophylaxis in processes where no such mediation would, with high probability, lead to damage/death/destruction to and of others (i.e. the innocents)."...does that not mandate laws regulating the food industry that sells products that lead to childhood obesity and diabetes?

"The childhood obesity epidemic is a serious public health problem that increases morbidity, mortality, and has substantial long term economic and social costs. The rates of obesity in America’s children and youth have almost tripled in the last quarter century. Approximately 20% of our youth are now overweight with obesity rates in preschool age children increasing at alarming speed. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the prevalence of obesity has more than doubled among children ages 2 to 5 (5.0% to 12.4%) and ages 6 to 11 (6.5% to 17.0%). In teens ages 12 to 19, prevalence rates have tripled (5.0% to 17.6%). Obesity in childhood places children and youth at risk for becoming obese as adults and associated poor health such as diabetes, cardiovascular disease, and some forms of cancer. Prevention efforts must focus on reducing excess weight gain as children grow up.

Today’s children, ages 8 to 18, consume multiple types of media (often simultaneously) and spend more time (44.5 hours per week) in front of computer, television, and game screens than any other activity in their lives except sleeping. Research has found strong associations between increases in advertising for non-nutritious foods and rates of childhood obesity. Most children under age 6 cannot distinguish between programming and advertising and children under age 8 do not understand the persuasive intent of advertising. Advertising directed at children this young is by its very nature exploitative. Children have a remarkable ability to recall content from the ads to which they have been exposed. Product preference has been shown to occur with as little as a single commercial exposure and to strengthen with repeated exposures. Product preferences affect children's product purchase requests and these requests influence parents' purchasing decisions."


Michael R. Kesti

Walt 5Sep14 09:24 AM

"You know ,, DUI? Sale without a license/permit, sale to minors,,etc."

Thank you for the clarification, Walt.

My answer remains the same. These can all be managed in exactly the same way alcohol and/or tobacco are managed currently. A variation on the field sobriety test might be necessary but enforcing unlicensed sale, sale to minors, and such would be no different from alcohol and tobacco.


Good Lord.. And they say I'm all over the place. Time for Gerry to pee in a cup.
If you OWN the property, Have at it. But cutting those who rent you the property out of ANY say in the matter is dead wrong. Do I need to repost the proposed ordinance change in "S"? ( again)

You can keep that bridge in S.F. It was built with sub-standard materials by over priced, corrupt, union labor. Like they said one opening day... " uhhh,, you wanna go first?"

What's your peeve about gun ownership? A bag of weed isn't going to keep the bad guys out. But a 12 gauge will.
I sure hope it wasn't due to something you could have done in the past.( or shouldn't have)


"but enforcing unlicensed sale, sale to minors, and such would be no different from alcohol and tobacco."

Agreed,, but it seems the growers don't want any form or registration, to be able to distinguish between who is growing legally, VS illegally.
If the cops had a registry of those in compliance with the law, that way if anyone gripes, they can check the list and save everyone involved grief .
(Yet I required to register MY firearms.. like it or not)


Paul's 12:54
Should be sandbox martial. I don't see any relation to the subject of "S".

( I recall the chastising I got for posting off topic.)


"Maybe you can find where MJ is written in. ( with a sharpey?)"

No, it's in ink:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

I believe you'll find it is the opinion of the Federal government that the personal use pot plant in the closet of your stoner or medical mota user is or relates enough to Interstate Commerce in order to give them authority.

A Federal attorney, answering a direct question from a judge in a gun control case, affirmed it was the opinion of the USA that the judge's shotgun in his closet also relates to interstate commerce and therefore, subject to Federal regulation.

The Commerce Clause, the gift that keeps giving as long as the SCOTUS allows it.


"If you OWN the property, Have at it. But cutting those who rent you the property out of ANY say in the matter is dead wrong."

If you want a say, have a clause in the lease that forbids it. A county registry for properties whose owners wish to bar MJ growing should do the trick, don't you think? Poleeese would have an easy time determining the legality and it should cost next to nothing to implement.

Gerry Fedor

I find the sheriff's claims to be very interesting, especially when you look at them from a purely mathematical stan..

If the recent claims about the 12,000 plant grows in smartsville were accurate you would need a minimum of 48 thousand gallons of water a day.

that would mean that your well would have to produce @40 gallons a minute, 24/7.

Then later in the season you would have to produce 100 gallons per minute per day, 24/7.

I don't know about you, but this is Smartsville not the middle of Lake Oroville....

the question for me is was this report accurate or another fabrication?


Well,,, the 2ND says gun ownership "shall not be infringed" Yet there is PLENTY of "infringement" going on. By city, county,state and FEDS alike.

One could also argue " The right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"
If getting stoned makes you happy, well,,, maybe SCOTUS should take that up.
How many times has MJ appeared before the courts? Plenty.
At least the 2ND Amendment rights are being restored, one case at a time.
The anti gun folk want to ban on "looks" alone, and just because a person is employed in law enforcement, he can own a certain gun, the guy next door can't.


"A county registry for properties whose owners wish to bar MJ growing should do the trick,"
I think that already exists. About 3/4ths of the local phone book.
Which list would be shorter?
I say if your a legal grower, letting the authorities know it shouldn't be an issue. Even everyday legal businesses get compliance inspections.
But NNOOOoooo. Growers want NONE of that. ( where the FEDS are concerned I understand why. "O" sure lied BIG TIME on that little promise)

George Rebane

re my 933am - Sorry for the confusion. I thought the conversation here had gone a bit beyond 'possessory' considerations, and included under what circumstances we would accept the intercession of a collective to limit personal freedoms. But the comments on government's role in controlling booze, guns, chemicals, explosives, medicines, ... pretty well covers it and makes the case for curtailing some liberties. And by no means are such boundaries crisp and uniformly accepted.

That is one reason why we live in societies with different norms, some of which have become cultural. Moreover, that is a prime reason why multi-cultural societies wind up satisfying so few of its members - e.g. Angela Merkel's "Multi-kulti does not work."


With that Doc.,, The "culture" that was here in 1879, has been pretty much been exterminated by the "culture" of 1969. Which one was more productive to society and the betterment to everyone?

Paul Emery

So be it George. If indeed a body count determines the threshold level that triggers government intervention in our free choice of diversions I don't think MJ will rate very high.

I never got a view from you about whether MJ policy it should be left up to the States as Tom McClintock visions?

Paul Emery


Here's the problem with letting the authorities know your agricultural intentions. Mendicino asked growers to register in 2010 and many did and guess what happened? The Feds subpoenaed the list and busted some of those who registered.


George Rebane

PaulE 520pm - as a blogger with a long and accessible record of publicized opinions, I have fully agreed with TomM's MJ policy, and preceded him in pushing for the return of federalization (i.e. states' rights). Yes, I believe that if the feds pass a constitutional law for the whole country, then each state has the right/obligation to tailor it to their own needs as a state law, and then its cities and counties have the right/obligation to further tailor it to their local needs. This assumes that the higher levels of government will properly pass generalized laws, which become more specific as they are implemented at lower levels.

However in recent decades under leftwing central planning, the federal laws come off the starting blocks specifying specifics down to the gnat's ass level - e.g. MichelleO's dicta on what items kids should eat in schools, else federal funds will be withheld. That is autocracy, pure and simple.


"If the recent claims about the 12,000 plant grows in smartsville were accurate you would need a minimum of 48 thousand gallons of water a day."
-G Fedor 1:45PM

It takes a special sort of gullibility to think a pot plant's water consumption averages 4 gallons a day.


Paul. You can thank "O" the lying bastard for that. He suckered the pot people into voting for him to get the Calif. vote. " I promise to leave states that have MMJ laws alone." Kind of like every Dem. " The end justifies the means." That includes speaking with forked tongue. It wasn't like people weren't warned.

Since there is no way to separate the "good" growers from the bad, don't blame LE and bitch about jack boot thugery.

If your "legal" limit is say 40 plants, make damned sure you don't have 41.
If the fence needs to be a minimum height, add 2 inches. Your friendly building inspector will fail your inspection if your deck rail if it's 3 foot 15/16ths when it needs to be four feet. ( I found that out,)
See the business in the paper that got slammed for CODE VIOLATIONS? Criminal charges too. Uhmmm called that one...

Gerry Fedor

Yawn, with knowing Walt's past experience I sure would want him doing my math..... LOL!!!


It wasn't my math skills Gerry, It could have been the weed that blurred my vision when looking at the tape measure. Then again, it could be I'm just a crappy carpenter.
That's why I moved dirt for a living. ( and damned good at it, if I do say so myself)

Take a good toke, and try and solve ONE common core math problem.. ( good luck with that.... Even with a clear head.)

Michael R. Kesti

Walt 6Sep14 09:31 AM

"Take a good toke, and try and solve ONE common core math problem.. ( good luck with that.... Even with a clear head.)"

Others may not be subject to your limitations, Walt, and you might do well to not assume they are.


From what many people say, common core will drive your children to do drugs.
" 9+6 ,,in 10 easy steps" Someone was ON drugs when they dreamed up common core.

Michael R. Kesti

There are no "Common Core math problem(s)." A math problem is a math problem. There could be Common Core math solutions but I feel that many of Common Core's criticisms, exemplified by the video demonstrating a "new" way to add nine and six, are misguided.

Nothing about Common Core requires students be taught the technique demonstrated in the video nor does it prohibit teaching other techniques. Instead, Common Core imposes proficiency standards and requires that students be able to both solve problems and understand the principles behind those solutions. The video's technique demonstrates one such principle, that being that a problem can be simplified by rearrangement. While this is overkill for the addition of two single-digit numbers it is a valid concept that is useful when dealing with more complex problems.

The problem I have with Common Core is that it is yet another one-size-fits-none mandate from the Federal government. Primary education has traditionally and for very good reasons been managed by state and especially local governments. The feds have simply no justification for Common Core and it is yet another example of a government that has overgrown its appropriate role.

Bill Tozer

Thank goodness you are talking about Common Rotten Core. Leave for three days and I see 220 posts about friggin dope.

220 posts about weed. Hey, pot ain't life or death in the grand scheme of things. Like who can't take it or leave it? Sure, to a few twisted individual potheads, they set up a shrine and worship their Goddess Marihuana, giver of live. If a nuke hit, we all could live without it, except those would cannot possibly imagine life without being stoned. You have heard about such freaks of nature. They smoke two joints in the morning and spent the rest of their day scrounging around looking to get stoned. Ain't talking about the true medical patients, just low lives and their ilk. Recreational dope? More like cannot live without a plant. Geez, some people need to put down the bong and get a life.

Three cheers for Common Rotten Core. Anything but smoking dope. Carry on.

Gerry Fedor

Nope Bill, we worship the businesses, and jobs that this industry creates, and we wish you'd do the same.....

Lots of jobs are created by this industry, and you want to see this country make a BIG MISTAKE, try to do what they are doing in Fresno County. More money comes thru this country from this product than every other agricultural commodity combined (timber, grapes, cattle, horses, mining etc).

According the the Nevada County former Agricultural Commissioner the cannabis crop is the greatest single source of revenue for this county.

Ban it and you'll see lots of businesses take a huge hit, everyone from every hardware stores, to the products that are used by these people, to the property value market.

I found it interesting that you look at property values in Yuba County, and they are 14-22% higher than they are in Nevada County, the properties typically are sold within 1 day of being listed on the MLS, and less than 3% fall out of escrow (Nevada County is 11.5%) because of funding issues. Typical days on the market for Nevada Counties properties, 5 acres or more, is 43 days.

This means that Yuba County has been able to increase their county spending (on things like roads, and services, and school) all out of this industry because of the additional tax revenue. They used to be one of the lowest income counties in California, but that ain't the situation no more....

It amazes me that the ilk (thanks Mr. Tozer for his terminology) on this site cannot see that this will be legalized in 2016, so why not make this a financial windfall for the county, or we could we all be looking for jobs as a backhoe operator job, for another 6-8 years (and from what I can tell, still hasn't found one yet...).

It's OK with Bill for people to go out and drink a 6 pack, but smoke a little Pot, and suddenly Bill's panties are in a wad..... Sounds pretty hypocritical to me, especially when we hear about some drunk beating the crapola out of family members, and then assaulting the Police when they come to intervene? Then how often do you hear that happening when someone uses MJ? More likely they are sitting on the sofa, smiling and not causing any problems.

I tend to be a big picture person, and I'm amazed that others here cannot see past the end of their noses on this issue and try to make this a larger resource.

We've spent millions of dollars with the ERC, and the county trying to "enforce their flawed ordinance", yet we just keep throwing money at it. I guess the BOS thinks that they are trying to bring industry into the county, and what has that brought us? Very little, if anything from what I can tell....

I also find it humorous that people here want to keep it away from kids and repeat that fact over and over (as we all do), yet I haven't hear any complaints about the biggest distributor of Pot to high school kids in this county? You should talk with our Sheriff about him dropping 6,000 pounds of Pot by the Harmony Market off highway 30, right in the middle of the High Schools track trail.....

My next door neighbor's kids said all of their buddies were up there sorting threw the discarded materials, laughing as they all said they had enough stuff for the next 3 years..... They we laughing and asking me who they should send the "Thank You" cards to?

It's a interesting world we live in, and how some people live in the past and will be happy living there for the rest of their lives.....

Michael R. Kesti

You are correct, Bill, that "pot ain't life or death in the grand scheme of things." Other than that, though, you have completely missed the point.

The criminalization of marijuana increases the incidence of actual crime while resulting in the incarceration of otherwise law-abiding citizens who do no harm to others. This would seem to be a hallmark of a people who continue, despite reality, to lie to themselves about being free.

You obviously have no respect for those who use marijuana for recreational purposes, Bill, and lump them all into the stereotypical stoner. This stereotype, as most, does not accurately portray the majority of users but well serves those who lack the courage to allow others to live their lives as they see fit.

Alcohol isn’t a matter of life and death, either, but Americans learned a lesson about controlling others with the prohibition of alcohol and its subsequent repeal. It is a shame that this lesson was forgotten by the 1960’s.

Bill Tozer

Gentlemen, I do not like stoners, period. As far as the economic benefits to the county or trying to criminalize recreational use of marihuana,, I believe what someone does it what they do and I ain't no Carrie Nation. Smoke all you want, you are going to anyway.

If the voters say it is ok to legalize marijuana, then that is like a Supreme Court ruling and it's a done deal. Most of the thread here is pushing big time for legal more cultivation of marijuana for medicinal purposes only, as stipulated by what the voters passed. Medicinal purposes only. No problem there.

Criminal grows will remain illegal criminal cultivation until the laws are changed. Mostly large grows. From my first posts to now, I say stay within the law and one has absolutely nothing to worry about.

To repeat, I do not like nor respect stones or drunks or druggies, period. Michael, there is a world of difference between a recreational user and a stoner, as there is a world of difference between having a couple brewskis or a couple of glasses of wine at a fine restaurant and being a 24/7 drunk.

I ain't trying to take anyone's medicine away or anyone's legal use, legal cultivation, legal possession of the Goddess Marihuana, giver of live. Follow existing law until existing law is changed, tweaked, altered, relaxed, whatever.

There is a world of difference between lust and rape, between want and stealing, between blowing a joint now and then and having large scale illegal grows...

For the daily stoner, all I can say is users are losers and losers are users. Has nothing to do with tiring to criminalize anything that isn't already illegal, like illegal grows and folks that are over their cultivation limits, through S or any future ordinance.

Give some folks an inch and they take a mile. I propose taking away nothing, criminalizing nothing that is not already illegal, such as transporting across state lines. Do your own thing, but do not expect me to condone it. Tolerating it is the best I can do, but I ain't going to hope on this bandwagon of legalize everything or we are all going to be like a deep fried Twinkie at the Iowa State Fair.


Like any other "above board" buck that's made, there is a tax on it.
Not one word from this motley crew on how the "man" gets his "fair share".

What next? The "Robin hood" excuse? As it sits right now ( as claimed) dope money is the only thing keeping the county businesses afloat. Some would (and do) call that "blood money".

Forget tax evasion is criminal too?


Speaking to an old friend yesterday, I got news that the "trimmers union" isn't going to like. ( the new unemployed?) There is a machine that's now made locally that trims the buds in record time. Another profit saving devise. The cost of one machine will save enough to buy the next party boat.

Gerry Fedor

Gee Walt, I guess that means that you'll even have a harder time in finding income this year.....

What a sad little monkey who complains about a new business that probably employs 35 people, several engineers, a law firm, and lets not think about the revenue that county businesses get from this too....

I guess your days of growing have changed, just like the attitude of most intelligent people.....

Bill Tozer

Yep, Walt, you can even rent the trimmer machine. No more travelers from near and far hanging around beautiful downtown North San Juan causing problems like last year. NSJ , like my little speck on the map, likes to handle things among ourselves, internally, if you catch my drift. Can't remember NSJ asking the sheriff "for a little help up here" since them methheads were using Downtown as a drag strip and looking for fights. Think those 2 occurrences are the only two times they called for outside interference since the snowstorm of 1856, or was 1878?

Thank you Eli Whitney for the cotton gin. Know some kids that picked up some cash doing the trimming thang. Going rate is 15-20 bucks an hour, but all 3 neighbor kids have not got paid in full.
Walt was correct when he said growers are tapped out around harvest time. Perhaps the Labor Board can look into this screwing of the little guy. Otta be a State law that mandates pay for work done, with no IOUs. No "I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today." No Whimpys. That is so wrong, so immoral. Our youth need to be paid in a timely prompt matter. Friggin small time Charlies trying to play in the Big boys' playground. What a bunch of low life maggot buckets.

Gerry Fedor

Bill, you make use laugh more than Walt.....

You actually think that the kids here would put up with that? Bhahahahah! You guys sure are reaching for anything else that;ll try to make your points stick!

My god guys, you need to stop that " grump old men and I don't know crap" medicine.....

Reminds me that you guys must be going into dementia! LOL!!!

Bill Tozer

Mr. Walt: perhaps someday in the little boutique and trinket shops they will be selling local fine wares with a label that reads "Hand trimmed the old fashioned way". Of course one will be expected to pay more for domestically grown organic grass because of rising labor costs as the product price continues to drop. Gotta find that sweet spot.

Earlier Brad mentioned the high retail costs in Colorada. That is because the State regulates the supply to meet the demand and is still adjusting. The demand caught them off guard so now they are allowing more licensed growers, but the output from each grower is still maxed out at 100 ounces I believe. The small guys are crying foul cause the ones growing in big warehouses are allowed more output and have the means to rewire huge buildings and have all the up front costs pre-paid. An outdoor/ organic greenhouse is at a disadvantage. State controls supply to balance demand and price is set to control demand as well. The State has a vested interest in the supply and demand of Holy MaryJane, patron saint of the suffering downtrodden faceless masses. The State collects from the seller as well as they buyer. Like a bookie, they win every time. Got ya coming and going, as one could expect nowadays from government looking for another source to tax and tax some more.


Keep making our point Gerry, it's ALL about the non taxed buck, and the "patient" is just a convenient after thought, and excuse.

"S" is just another phase in "operation: camel nose".
Now lets hear the justification for the provision in "S" to screw over land lords.
" I don't need to tell you what I'm doing with the property you pay taxes on,, who cares if I stick you with the water and power bill when I make my bucks and split."
You should have inspected more often....SUCKER!! LOL!! and it's on you!"

Right Gerry?

Patricia Smith

Re Michael K, 2:03am. For many patients, marijuana IS a matter of life and death. It has often worked when everything Western medicine had to offer failed. Every 19 minutes, someone dies of a pharmaceutical drug overdose in this country. No one has ever died from an overdose of marijuana. It is one of the few substances that does not have an LD-50 rating (which states the dose level of a substance that will kill half of the people who use it) Yet all of those pharmaceutical medications are deemed "safe" and "legal."

Even when the patient is too far gone to save, marijuana can make their final passage less stressful for the patients and their loved ones. One patient who passed recently from Alzheimer's disease, went out peacefully. He wasn't riddled with anxiety or pain and was able to dance and celebrate his life with his loved ones. I'll take this over being hooked up to tubes and IV's any day!

Measure S isn't about "stoners" or commercial growers. It was narrowly written to allow qualified patients the right to grow their own medicine. Contrary to popular opinion, they CANNOT do that under the county's ordinance as it is riddled with poison pills that make almost every garden out of compliance. (I'm sure there are a few exceptions, but not one appeal has been upheld) It is a ban with lipstick.

I find it hard to believe that true conservatives who value their independence and the Bill of Rights could support the county trampling on the rights of sick people. This is a case of situational ethics: My rights are sacrosanct, but yours aren't.

Patients are not against regulations - we have been trying to get this industry regulated since 1996. Law enforcement has blocked any meaningful regulations from getting through the legislature because they receive tons of money and weapons from the federal government to keep up the failed Drug War (that they can now use on YOU.)

When over 90% of the people CANNOT follow the requirements in a regulation (no growing on hillsides, etc), it is a bad law. No one has a more vested interest in protecting their crop than the growers and anyone that chooses not to erect a fence is an idiot. Our relaxed fencing codes were written to allow growers the ability to erect the best possible fence they can within existing county codes and the CCR's for their neighborhood. It simply got too unwieldy to list every acceptable material and circumstance that required a fence. This does not mean that no fence is required. Plants are not allowed to be visible to the public at any stage of growth. How much more explicit can that get?

Gerry Fedor

Sorry Walt, see I actually have several rental properties, and I do more than just collect a rent check (which is all that I guess that you do???). I actually visit them on a regular basis and when I note a problem I resolve it right then!

See I actually have stipulations written into my rental agreements that I actually follow through with, that way I don't cry like a little girl because someone was doing something that was counter to my rental agreement.

Screw over you landlords.... Hmmmm, you should actually mean "landlords should actually do what is required, and it's more than collecting a rental check every month..."

It's known as "property ownership", and too bad it's taken you this long to figure our what that actually involves......

Measure S has nothing to do with legalization, as it has strict limits on the number of plants based upon zoning and parcel size.

Right now with the current rules, and if I was in LOP, LWW or AS (and on 2 acres) I could grow 99 plants, but Measures S stops that in almost it's entirety. 95+% of the properties cannot grow outside any more.

Walt cracks me up about his "taxation" rules, if you know of people (like your $100K guy), then you should be a "Good American" (I think you'd agree that you should either report him, or be quiet as if not, you have no right to complain as you're supporting his activities - RIGHT??? LOL!!).

So either be part of the solution (as continuing to keep crying about gun rights and rental property, and who get's them, is a bit hypocritical...).

Bill Tozer

Gerry, this grumpy old man simply cannot recall if I have dementia or not. Like I never had a blackout either. If I could remember a blackout, then it wasn't a blackout, now was it?

3 out of 3 kids not being paid in full. Oh, they will be in due time cause we old grumpy men know how to take care of business internally. 3 out of 3 and make it 4 out of 4 if you count my own daughter who had to wait 3 weeks to get paid the remainder of the balance due after picking up some summer trimming work down near Santa Cruz between semesters. Yep, my own flesh and blood and her classmates trimmer from Happy Camp to Santa Cruz and got paid some, then wait for a few weeks. No worries, once they are 21 they are on their own learning curve. Cheap enough lesson about counting your chickens before they hatch.

Best you can hope from me, Mr. Fedor, is that I do not exercise my right to vote.


Patricia. Good post. I'm in agree that MMJ has it's medical benefits. No gripe what so ever on that. But "S" will remove the "right" of land lords that don't want growing on their property for what ever reason. That's my beef with it.

It's the likes of Gerry that give legal growers a bad name.
Funny ... He claims to have never even partaked yet thinks full blown legalization is a great idea. More interested in the easy buck to be had.


There in another certainty in life other than death and taxes. Those that think they can "stick it to the man" and get away with it over and over, wind up getting "stuck" themselves. And "the man" takes it all in the long run.
The day will come Gerry will be in the same place as my ex-brother-inlaw.
A nice roof over his head, the hots and a cot, and sex weather he wants it or not.

"S" isn't going to make MJ any more "legal" to grow, in the State's eyes. Remember CA. is dead broke and would be more than happy to relieve you of those ill gotten gains. Good luck with the "just compensation" defense.

Bill Tozer

I liked Miss Patrica's post. The further we travel down this thread, the further we get from the original intent and purpose, ie., the patient. Like our public education debates, somehow the pupil gets lost in the rhetoric about unions, accountably, Common Core, etc.

Walt, let's be clear. Any full time grower that does not have at least one hundred grand payday a year don't know what he/she is doing. Couple pay days a year is norm.
Anyone that has a script for 99 plants in THIS county is a supplier to dispensaries. Sac county passes out 99 pot plant scripts like Rite-Aide has pills. Plus, with a state license you can drive your wares down to Fresno or Stochoakland or Oaklandam or whatever the Bay Area calls their indoor flea markets. 99 script ers is a supplier, not necessary the actual grower or consumer. Like the old smart sayings from those who are successful, "I'm a dealer, not a user."

Todd Juvinall

So for the ignorant like me BillT, what kind of moulah are we talking about? 99 plants gets how much per plant or pound?

Bill Tozer

On the conservative side, 1 1/2 pounds per plant, $1,200 per pound. $1,500 a pound general price if you hold out a few months after the fall rush of sellers desperate to make their car payments and do Christmas shopping. Conservative side, mind you, low ball......heard it hit $3,300 a pound 3-4 years ago. What a hoot, price dropping like a rock...exactly what them wild boy in the green triangle predicted when this medical herb Proposition was being balleyed about.

George Rebane

re PatriciaS 955am - The obvious thing to do would be for the Supes to modify 2349 so that it picks up the good parts of S, and still gives us an ordinance that can be easily tuned as it is implemented. But Patty touches a sore point when she brings up all the parties who benefit from making MJ as hard as possible to grow and consume. Yes indeed, follow the cash cow - comes from the naïve taxpayers and goes to the crafty crooks and our 'justice system'.

Not being very versed in MJ matters, I keep wondering what the problem is for fulfilling legitimate medical MJ needs. I'm told that a single plant overfills a single patient's annual consumption. Why can't a patient or patient's friend/family discreetly grow a couple of plants? End of story?

But using the medical excuse to raise and sell recreational MJ is a whole new ball game, and I guess that is what all the fuss has been about.


Remember Bill, Nev. Co. isn't the only game in Ca. that "supplies" the bay.(or anywhere else for that matter.) Not to mention what comes across the boarder, by the bale load. My guess is that more than PLENTY from here leaves the state just as fast as employers. That's some serious tonnage.

Remember that "training" aircraft that I mentioned before circling PV all Summer? It's said that's it's a remote sensing "trainer". Just think of the technology that could be packed inside that sucker. What a fine way to "sniff" out those indoor grows in say,,, LWW? Plenty of AF personnel from Beale live there. Any one of them could make a phone call as a "concerned citizen", without exposing the top secret abilities of said aircraft. " I live here,, and I think something illicit is going on there."
Just a "wild" guess.. But with all the OTHER spying by our current government on "law abiding citizens" it might be a pretty good guess. FLIR has made great progress these days.

Todd Juvinall

If Tesla had wanted to have a MJ grow at their new plant in California, Patricia and her minions would have made sure they stayed in California.

Gerry Fedor

George, the sad thing is that the BOS had plenty of opportunities to make adjustments to the current regulations, but they told the ASA group that they had no interest in doing so.

That's why they worked very had and got 16,000 people signed the petition to get it on the ballot, and from what I hear the ASA group has registered another ?? 3,500 new voters.

Nothing like this has ever been done before in Nevada County.

Gerry Fedor

Todd, 99 plants scripts are not any good, as state guidelines state 6 plants per recommendation, and one might expect 1-2 pounds per plant, it's selling locally in the fall for $800 per pound.

Bill Tozer

Eureka, my point exactly from out of the starting blocks, Todd, Dr. Rebane, and Walt. The old shell game with a wink and a nod. Like I said a couple hundred posts ago, dispensaries aren't buying Nevada County weed. No need to and they can say a grand a pound or kiss my multicultural behind. The whole enchilada is about the non medical grass growers. That is what it really boils down to. Got land? Got a friend to help you set up? You be in business....if only we didn't have these ordinances, right?

My line of work allows me to meet people from all walks of life. They volunteer info or I ask, pick their brains on various topics if you will. Last year at the start of growing season, price was 1,800 bucks a pound. A good plant without any setbacks like disease would yield 2 pounds of trimmed packaged for sell bud, but the price dropped again by outdoor harvest time.

Meet a guy with a 99 plant script who lives in Walt's neck of the woods. He does not grow in this county. Knows growers in El Dorado county and buys from growers in other counties as well. He don't need to grow at all. Can conduct business from his home in Nevada County doing the nice young couple routine. Scoops up lbs from growers using his script and refuses to pay over $850/lbs from other growers and takes it to his partner's legal dispensary in the Valley. One hell of a cash cow. Money talks and bull pucky walks. They could care less about some suffering patient, but they did raise $250,000 for charity last year. A regular bone-e-fied humanitarian is their public persona. He should have gotten into politics and make more.

Patricia is right. Focus on our county's medical patients and let them grow on a hillside or make necessary adjustments for their 6 plants. Heck, a 25 plant garden is considered the smallest patch around nowadays. Let folks grow bigger gardens until 64 plants is the norm, which is still pretty small. That would make the illegal for profit growers happier and make them legit.
That's all they want...legitimacy. Too bad they use the suffering ill as the gateway to come out into the light. Like Isis, they hide behind women and children and the suffering. Such friggin opportunists. It's for compassionate purposes. Yeah right. Guess a mans gotta do what a mans gotta do, right? Horse Bucky.

George Rebane

GerryF 239pm - well enough. If the BoS do not respond to the will of the voters, then they will suffer at the polls. And don't get me wrong about Patty Smith's efforts with ASA. I think she has a constituency (don't know how informed they are) and she has done the right thing to put S on the ballot - I applaud her. But I hope that voters do read JAR's comparative analysis and the excellent debate that is documented in this comment stream. Then let the votes fall where they may.


DANGER! Fire on Banner @ Red Dog near the shooting range.

Gerry Fedor

Thank you George, Bill, and even you Walt!

All that we can ask for, is for people to make a INFORMED decision on Measure S, and not let the Law Enforcement community make these decisions for us.


What was I saying about growing within the current law? ( Called that one)
Growing in two places under the same "recommendation"? Really???

There is all sorts of WRONG according to what's in the paper.


To the BUSTED grower in today's paper... According to the evidence the Sheriff made public, ( same script posted at different locals) "your" operation is a "for profit" scam under the guise of "for the sick". That's shameful.
And you wonder why people are skeptical of the whole MMJ "relaxation" of the current ordinance.
I know you can't respond to this, ( if you take your lawyers advice) but sorry pal,, you broke the law, now deal with it.

George Rebane

As promised, a sample set of criteria for amending the current or developing a new marijuana ordinance is presented here -


The USDA (Dept of Ag) says water consumption for pastures, golf courses, vineyards expressed in irrigation inches
is twice that of Marijuana, approx. 30 inches vs. approx. 15 inches.
Perhaps , the water! the water! the water! cry is another chicken little or red herring. Your choice.


You can't eat weed Don, Yaa... Your choice.
Food over a mind altering substance wins every time.

Don Nelson

For 40 years we have been fighting the war on pot. Today, as adjusted for by inflation and measured by its current worth in gold, it is 11 times cheaper than when the pot war began, in Humboldt, in about 1975.

To be very specific, it was $5,000 a pound at its peak and is now at perhaps $1,100 or $1,600 a pound in this area depending whom you talk to.

So, by the rules of supply and demand, the drug war is lost. Long lost. It is time for a new approach. Yes on S sends a message that we no longer want to justify the drug war’s erosion of civil liberty in the name of 'safety.' Needless to say, this approach did not work for prohibition, either.

The change toward taxation and regulation is coming. It is just a question of when social conservatives in this county decide to quit wasting our money on results that we are not getting. Rood center needs to quit being ineffective, reactionary, and rude by using the issue for their culture war.

It is simple supply and demand. Every "bust" reduces supply. Demand is still there. The drug war is obviously not winnable by repression, and the "cure" has become worse than the crime.

The drug war police own the violence that results when they create scarcity that heightens the price, and inevitably tempts new suppliers into the market. They deny this fundamental economic principle but inadvertently they create it -- just like during prohibition.

The truth is that drug war police profit from it in the form of wages and power. Most will do something more "sensible" once the laws change. Although, it may not be as exciting.

Meanwhile, the danger is that they erode civil liberties.

Meanwhile, tax payers are in the middle and foot the bill.

Yes on S says to these authoritarian types "the jig is up."

Yes on S says "Let's rid ourselves (or re-orient both sets of folks that profit from the drug war) of both the drug police and the gangsters. Let’s end this self-perpetuating and expensive endless of circle that is good for prime time drama, but not good for the respect of law.

You don't think police profit? Read about the half-track Rood just purchased with confiscated private property or the 33 agencies that collectively helped themselves to drug bust loot from a take-down in New York. Both articles were in the Union recently.

Last, I refer you to RAMP Republicans against Marijuana Prohibition. LEAP Law Enforcement Against Marijuana Prohibition. Both of these organizations are way ahead of us in their thinking.

I don't expect social conservatives to agree -- they are fighting a culture war and worried about dirty green wild-eyed hippies moving into the area. But, the rest of us should wake up to market reality (as supposedly espoused by libertarians and tea party types except locally where they are tools of the local Republicans). Let's come together to end the violence and profiteering that we are stupidly enabling by not reigning in Rood Center and their self-interested crew of drug warriors.

I am not saying they are not sincere. I am just saying they are not in touch with the trends or the ideological underpinnings of true conservatism. And what they plainly deny is that the drug war is long lost – Pot, in particular has NEVER been more boring, cheap and available.

Some of you sound like you might be sensitive to the classical philosophical underpinnings of conservatism and the associated 'realities (supply and demand)of the market place.

Some of you may be ready to listen to either Sheriff Mack or Tom McClintock more than Keith Royal when it comes to MMJ.

I have already given up on the Board of Supervisors. They are mostly pawns or basically asleep creatures of the public sector special interests that are at stake here.

Tired of the drug war.

Thank you,

Don Nelson

Steve O'Herilihy

Re print of Martin Webb's Recent Post. For those not yet familiar with Martin, he is intelligent and uncommonly perceptive.

People have asked so here's the deal with Measure S...IMHO:

A couple years ago the sheriff said that his deputies sometimes show up at pot gardens and they find a completely legal grow: no evidence of wrongdoing, no evidence of illegal sales, no extra harvest, no fake doctor's note, and so they have to leave it alone and walk away...no laws being broken. But he said he wanted a way to still chop some of them down, calling many of them a nuisance even though they were completely legal and following all state laws. That's how this all started. He falsely claimed (theme alert) to the media there were 30-40 complaints a day but then when asked for proof, they were forced to admit they had zero complaints on file. (Last year they had 1-2 complaints a day, once they finally started recording them.)

So based on a poor premise, the BOS asked the sheriff to make a working group of people to create an ordinance that would declare some gardens - that were otherwise totally state legal based on evidence - a nuisance and allow them to be chopped down, sending perfectly legal patients out to support the local illegal black market. I was asked to be on the working group. It was heavily biased and did not represent either knowledgeable people or a cross section of the community. It was mostly law enforcement/county officials coupled with several people from Alta Sierra (Don Bessee, Lee French, Ed Scofield and a 30-yr-long friend of Ed's who was brought in as an "independent" real estate representative, he also later told me it seemed like a sham group). You'll recognize a couple of those names as being on the controversial ASPOA BoD that were trying to assume power over their neighbors (theme alert), yet were shot down and almost recalled.

The group was dysfunctional and the ordinance is actually taken from another county and dressed up with extra stuff by the sheriff and the county attorney, it was mainly not written by the working group and does not represent good balance. Over an 8-month period, the sheriff only got the group together twice, for 2 hours. That was it! They ignored most all of our input and refused to budge. The ordinance is too complex and too hard for almost anyone to reasonably follow, leading to most legal gardens being out of compliance in one way or another. It is a policy that threatens legal patients and supports the dangerous black market.

What this has done is create a new soft prohibition, allowing an anti-MJ cultural war to distract local cops from chasing illegal grows and instead turning them into smell police that destroy legal gardens. So all Measure S does it take the sheriff's ordinance and replace it with a similar ordinance but one that is more reasonable. They are very similar in many respects, but the sheriff's ordinance helps support illegal growers by chopping down too many 100% legal gardens. The current ordinance requires a lot of onerous things and won't keep our community safer, as it shifts the local supply more towards illegal grows and less legal grows. There are too many nuanced details to cover here. The supply will not dwindle with the current ordinance, it will just shift to more law breakers. Bad policy. Vote Yes on S.

Note: Federal law is fairly irrelevant as annual statistics show that 99% off all MJ arrests occur at the state and local level. So this is where the rubber meets the road: do we want more local prohibition and the crime that comes with it? Or do we want smart regulation that eliminates nuisances while still allowing patients to comply with state law? You decide. Lots of pot will continue to be grown here no matter what happens. The choice is: will it be from state-legal gardens or the law breakers? Research shows that home invasions, environmental degradation and crime are not the effects of pot. Those are the effects of prohibition. We get what we ask for.


Yet the "potters" bitch.

And they come from back East with their hand out for you to "invest" there.

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