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12 October 2014

Comments

Bill Tozer

Dr. Rebane, first the disclaimer. I have read not most of the comments, posts, nor websites concerning the SofJ. I am all for it, but right now it is a mere idea to banter about.

My concerns are exactly what you implied. Will the 51st state just turn into another California-knee-ia with its Californication in time? The Scotland vote got me thinking. Yes, the Scotland thang was to break off from a country, not remain in it like the SofJ. With that said, the new state will have to hire civil servants and teachers. Besides the fact that a teacher in their 30s to 40's would be out of Cal-pers and join the new Jefferson-Pers, what would prevent the SofJ from becoming just another state with the juggernaut of crushing pension debt in due time. That is just one issue and a complex one, even though I don't work for da gobberment. What about the fire fighting bombers that we would have to buy up front? A lot of buildings and communication equipment would need to be bought/ leased just for starting up. Selling water won't save our bacon.

The bottom line is I see Sacramento throwing us in the rural counties a bone or two to serve as a expedient pacifier until this blows over and Sac can get back to business as usual. And business as usual for Californication is "We are big, you are small. We vote and you lose. So. take that cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth, pipsqueaks.

George Rebane

BillT 944am - Those are valid concerns Mr Tozer, the least of them are the initial economic ones (like buying buying the fire bombers). The new SoJ will be a magnet for all kinds of businesses due to its low regulations and business taxes, businesses that don't have to move far and still serve the west coast markets. And getting workers to move to SoJ should also be a slam dunk because its climate and scenery in addition to the greater liberties and lower taxes. But as the years pass, SoJ's success will be a strong attractant for pestilence.

Account Deleted

George - my thoughts on the odds of breaking free of the state of California are already on record. They range from somewhere far below slim and extend all the way to none. A good friend of mine years ago came up to me as I was trying to explain (very politely) to a tired volunteer that his management of traffic was allowing those who had just arrived at a venue to sail past folks who had been waiting in line for hours. Said volunteer issued some choice words at me and I had thrown up my hands in disgust and surrender. My friend's words were succinct and on the mark - (Brit accent, please - he was Norwegian, but educated in Merry Olde) - "Scott, you're dealing with humans".
You want measures/laws/documents to ensure that the fictional/future state of Nirvana will carry into the future that once and great promise that our founders gave us?
Give me a break. You are dealing with humans. I am one generation removed from that previous generation known as 'the great generation'. And we are collectively, sadly, not the even the 'good' generation. It may seem to be contrary, but a struggling state of Jefferson in poverty and need might be the best way to carry forward a collective sense of why they are not 'California' any more. A hope that money and businesses pouring in will provide support is backwards. The support must come from the will of the people and the commercial growth will be a result. How to hang on to the dreams and ideas of the oppressed as they become their own masters and pass power to their children is an age-old dilemma.
But don't worry - it ain't gonna happen. Unless you can find a Moses to lead you from the Egyptians.

George Rebane

ScottO 710pm - My comments on the odds of pulling off a successful SoJ separation are also on record. The movement does have another purpose though, as I've mentioned - to serve as a focused rallying cry for California's unrepresented people tired of just sitting quietly and mumbling in their beer, or tucking tail, pulling stakes, and heading east. The purpose of my post is to elicit a discussion to discover any feasible way of maintaining the planned SoJ, GIVEN that it was successfully launched and subsequently prospered.

That's a double conditional. My own assessment of the probability is high that SoJ will prosper GIVEN that it successfully launches. Here we take it one step further, because, after all, building a state that can be sustained against the pandemic of socialism (eating out the heart of the rest of America) is the objective. If a path to such a future cannot be seen from here, then the movement will die a quick death, and the only alternative for us and ours is some version of the Great Divide. And even though I may be the first to have asked this question, someone else would ask it soon enough if I had not. So, how can a SoJ be politically sustainable?

Bill Tozer

No doubt any State with lower regulations, reasonable taxes, more Libertarian type values, and a friendlier business climate has the upper hand. Ohio has turned things around under Gov John K so anything is possible. Much has been written about the business attractiveness of the Lone Star State, but the underreported secret of Texas's success is tort reform. Not to say Ohio or Texas doesn't have their problems, but which area doesn't?

I fall into Mr. Obermuller's camp with respect to human nature being human nature. We have moved as a country from Life, Liberty, and Property (ownership) to demanding access to the internet, access to persons, places, and things and less ownership of responsibly, less ownership of liberty, less ownership of things if you will. The Great Divide will not stop at a state line. I think the values of the Greatest Generation have been replaced by the next generations that ensured. Imagine those going through the Great Depression and our Revolutionary War without unemployment insurance, food stamps, Medicare, or welfare for unmarried young women with children. Long gone are the Homes for Unwed Mothers.

What I am saying is the new residents of any new State bring with them the same mindset of today, a mindset the Greatest Generation would find puzzling and foreign. I like Montana with its personal freedoms and no sales tax, yet Montana is more liberal than you think. Yet it works. Folks from all sides of the political spectrum valve the Big Sky way of doing things, so Jefferson is politically possible to be sustainable. Plus, it is a lot warmer here and closer to the business hubs of the Left Coast. Could work, but it is up to the next generations to decide their future as their future is not my future.

I can see it working, like British Columbia, specifically Vancouver. A melting pot of like-minded people with diverse opinions. Only major city I know where all the culture, arts, diversity, and businesses exist with hiking boots on every doorstep. Love of the area could make Jefferson politically sustainable.

Account Deleted

Of course the new magic state of Jefferson would pull in all sorts of new business. Mostly from what's left of California. The folks who run California aren't stupid. They know high taxes and onerous regs drive away business. Why do you think they are so keen to give Hollywood and 'green energy' tax breaks? And that is exactly why there will never be a state of Jefferson. If you say it serves as a focal point for those who are upset at the present course of the current state of California, fine. But there are already plenty of venues for precisely the same folks and it does no good as far as I can see. This state is already completely saturated by the non producers and our good gov has allowed as to how he welcomes in a new flood of them by any means (legal or no) every day. I will be glad to admit I'm wrong if only some one can point to any permanent tangible shift towards the direction of sanity in this once fine state. Sorry if I'm channelling Mencken, but there's too much stupidity and lawlessness in this state to have much hope for anything to get better.

Bill Tozer

Mr. Obermuller: You are preaching to the choir about the sorry current state of affairs in our once Golden State. Your sentiments are shared by countless in rural Northern Cal counties, which is why a SofJ has slightly more than a snowball's chance in California Hell of coming to fruition someday, somewhere over the rainbow. You just made the best case for the SofJ I have heard.

George Rebane

ScottO 1007am - Had no idea that "there are already plenty of venues for precisely the same folks" who are proposing solutions to taxation and regulation without representation. And here I thought I was in the know, silly me. Please throw out a few of those to enlighten us.

And apparently you also cannot see "any permanent tangible shift towards the direction of sanity in this once fine state." Well, at least I got that one right. So what besides these are our current alternatives?

1. Continue to grumble and mumble in our beer as California sinks into a total socialist cesspool filled with the Union's greatest numbers of federally funded welfare population, a burgeoning illegal alien population seeking to correct 1848, stack and pack in full swing, and a couple of high tech enclaves of (wink-wink) high tech and government subsidized 'capitalists'.
2. Seek separation through movements like SoJ in the hopes that it will awaken and unite the remaining conservatives and libertarians in the state to actually get Sacramento's attention, and then ... (?)
3. Work toward a Great Divide, many forms of which would provide a much more politically sustainable solution. (See posts in Great Divide category, and in the RR Glossary available here -
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2012/08/introducing-rr-glossary-and-semantics-v20jul12.html )
4. (Reader will fill supply correct answer.)

Gregory

4. Insolvency

Nothing can be done until a financial day of reckoning clears out the mess and wipes out promises of manna from Sacramento that can't be kept.

Todd Juvinall

When I was in Puerto Vallarta a year ago I met a Scottish man and his wife. We had a great conversation! He was a American Civil War affecianoto. We discussed the upcoming vote, then it was a year away, of Scotland's movement to become a separate country from the UK. He and his wife were active in that effort. They were very confident the measure would pass! We now see that a split or breakup is "hard to do" as Neil Sedaka once sung about. My feelings are that if the Republicans would simply vote at a higher turnout rate here and stop whining, we could probably take the state. Bit when the lazy asses stay home we see what we get. Anyway, Don Quixote and windmills is the best example of the probable outcome. God Bless those folks though, they show the system is still there for dissent.

George Rebane

Gregory 837am - I submit that my #1 includes the insolvency aspect, but you may have had something more drastic in mind that includes blood in the gutters. My prediction has been that CA will become the first federalized state, Washington will not let CA go functionally insolvent. After all, that's what God invented the 'printing press' for, and the money will come flowing in after CA can no longer remain a net cash exporter. But as a federalized state we can replace all our legislators and the governor with 2x4s having crayon drawn faces on them - all material decisions will be handed down from Washington. (Of course, some like me, already think that adopting such a substitution sooner than later would be of tremendous benefit to our state.)

fish

4. Insolvency

Nothing can be done until a financial day of reckoning clears out the mess and wipes out promises of manna from Sacramento that can't be kept.

You can discuss and plan for an inevitable SOJ as long as you want..... it will not occur until the above requirement is satisfied. I would add only that a federal financial reckoning day will figure into this as well.

George Rebane

ToddJ (903am) makes an excellent point. According to many studies, about half of Republicans don't vote, don't take part in their community's politics, and just bitch.

And if the US ever comes to a Weimar-like meltdown (fish 923am), then I think all bets are off as to where all the pieces will land. It would be the equivalent of a socio-economic singularity after which every faction, that has an objective and sees opportunity in the ensuing chaos, will attempt to make its move. The outcome is totally unknown, other than it will not resume business as usual.

Account Deleted

There are numerous groups and websites that focus on the maleficence and incompetency of the govt of the state of California. They may not embrace the same solution to the problem - breaking away - but they focus on the same core issues. They are all voices in the wilderness as far as I can see. This does not mean they should quit or give up. I applaud their efforts as I do the efforts of the folks working towards the SOJ. But I am also a realist. You will not attain a SOJ until the majority power in Cal allows it to happen. The only real, final solution I see is to convince the majority power in Sac that the conservative, rural areas need to be represented and treated fairly. They already know how they treat us and they like it that way.
I'm on the side of the supporters of the SOJ but I see no value personally in investing my time or money in such a venture. I spend my time on other issues and hobbies that others would find a waste of time or nonsensical. To each his own.
We can agree that the Cal ship of state is taking on water and is sinking. We both further agree that the ship's captain and most of the crew are busy opening new gaps in the hull for even more water to pour in. The SOJ solution is to have said captain and crew allow you to salvage the soundest part of the ship and sail away happily in the sunset while they sink even faster. It just doesn't seem reasonable to me.
But, prove me wrong and I will be the first to congratulate you and eat humble crow (or sea gull).
Yes - I do vote. All the registered Rs in this state could vote 2 or 3 times at every election and still wouldn't out pace the Dems.

George Rebane

ScottO 959am - I believe that we are in violent agreement on the SoJ, save on one facet. Your 1007pm suggested that there were other voices proposing and working toward solutions, and yet all you refer to here is that there are other voices out there grousing about the situation - two very different activities.

I am told that part of the SoJ approach to Sacramento is to demonstrate how letting SoJ happen is a win-win, and how retaining it in CA under current management will result in a more pronounced lose-lose future. No one has clarified the latter for me.

Account Deleted

I don't think digging through the cesspool of Cal politics and uncovering the filth for all to see is just grousing. There is always a need to actually have the proof of what is actually going on to inform the populace. And there are the groups going to the trouble and expense of trying to hold the govt accountable through the courts and various ballot initiatives. I believe the TP groups are not just focused on the feds but local and state govts as well. These other groups may not be attacking a dysfunctional state govt in the manner that the SOJ supporters are, but they are going after the same root problem.
Another thought - it's not really an organised group, per se, but all of the businesses that are taking the time and money to relocate out of Cal are having the very real effect of highlighting some of the problems here. The pols are having a harder and harder time dismissing this trend out of hand. They are starting to have to answer hard questions from the 'middle of the road'. types about this problem.
Yes, there are always those that just grouse, but there are many other people and groups doing positive things besides just the SOJ folks. Individuals going to the extra trouble of researching the facts beyond what they are spoon fed by the pols and the LSM is a positive use of time. What they do then with that info is critical.
I wish all paths of efforts against the corrupt and incompetent state govt well.

Paul Emery

No doubt any State with lower regulations, reasonable taxes, more Libertarian type values.........

Bill T 8:25

I'm sure the Libertarians in your coalition could care less about what kinds of plants you choose to grow in your back yard. Be careful of what you wish for.

fish

OT:

A political ad for when you really figure out that the Harry Reid won't be majority leader in the next congress!


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-10-13/ebola-america-its-republicans-fault

Keen Observer

Fish,

You don't have your progressive thinking cap on. When in doubt, the default rule always holds true that a more financially robust government can solve ALL of the ills of man. With that being said, you are blasphemous for denying government its proper funding, which can only be achieved through higher taxation of everyone, everyone being defined as only the lazy and greedy members of the ever dwindling middle class.

fish

Posted by: Keen Observer | 13 October 2014 at 04:16 PM


Not a republican of course.....but guilty as charged!

Bill Tozer

Oh Paul, you are such a naysayer. I refuse to do anymore Pot Talk until Nov. 5th, 2014. Gotta be a man of my word, like you, my mentor and long lost adopted retarded brother and fellow soldier in the fight against tyranny and non historical lights in the historical district. If anything, the lights should be red to be historically accurate.
Hey, dude, I promised to show up to see your gig in early November, but I need a time, place and date. Man of my word. Tomatoes are getting real ripe and juicy and will be ready for the shindig. :).

Maybe the State of Jeffersonian values would be a grower's paradise....like don't tread on me and all that stuff. And we are already live in the future state so nobody has to move out or relocate....well, maybe Brother Ben would find the racial makeup not to his liking and move away, but the demographics would not change. Gotta look at the big picture and see the forest from the marihuana cigarette plants. Seems to me that a State of Jefferson would mean less intrusive gobberment for all Libertarians, including you, my long lost Brother.

Weldon Travis

The State of Jefferson Town Hall meeting in Grass Valley was a very informative event, with attendees from six counties. I wish that there were more of the naysayers, scoffers and uber-Liberals in attendance so that they, too, would better understand the win-win potential and would, themselves, benefit.

Steve O'Herilihy


Hi: As a newcomer to county politics during an election cycle this seems like a good place to reality-check my perception of local partisan politics. I am especially intrigued by the highly effective, well executed public relations that comes from local Republicans but am not sure if I am reading the tea leaves correctly. Therefore, let me just put it out there for comment. Am I seeing things or is there some accuracy?

From a sales perspective, the local conservatives market themselves via:

1. State of Jefferson
2. Tea Party
3. Several well publicized local conservative blogs (notably Rebane Ruminations)

Each partisan entity reinforces the other. It is the classic “cross-sell” architecture.

Behind the scenes, the electoral mechanism that harvests these fronts is Republican Women Federated. The RWF is the most well-organized part of the local Republican party. My question to you as a newcomer is, do I have this a correct perception?

If so, it is an enviable setup.

Here is from Rebane:

Is the State of Jefferson politically sustainable?
George Rebane
Last night Jo Ann and I attended the SoJ town hall meeting at the GV Elks Club. This meeting was announced here, and it drew a full house. The well-organized gathering was set up by the NC SoJ steering committee under the very able leadership of Eddie Garcia. I even noticed that Jim Firth, head of the NC Democratic Party and candidate for the GV City Council, was in attendance. Eddie later told me that he had personally invited Mr Firth to attend, and I commend him for his attendance (although I did notice that his participatory gestures did not exactly track the sentiments of the rest of the crowd).

Silly season will be over soon so this topic is only appropriate moving toward election day.

Any thoughts?

Joe Koyote

Here is a question. What makes anyone think the the government of the great state of jefferson will remain any different than what we have now? Governments are governments, and as such, reflect the policies of the political party that is able to elect the most representatives, which is itself a reflection of the social leanings of the voters. ( Note that I use the term "voters" not residents because as we all know actual voters only represent a small percentage of the total adult population.) When I moved to Nevada County 40 years ago it was solidly republican and any and all democrats stood a snowball's chance in hell of being elected. Recent elections tell a different story (Charley Brown). My point is that there is no guarantee that a conservatarian jefferson would remain so over time. When the old folks who started it die off who says the next generation will continue in the same vain? Just look at what is happening around the world (Hong Kong, global climate change protests, Arab spring, etc.). One could even argue that the radical Muslim movement is a rejection of the global corporate status quo and the consumer culture of the West. The world is changing and quite rapidly.

George Rebane

JoeK 906am - Now fess up Joe, did you come up with that question all by yourself, or did you first take a peek at the commentary?

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