« Election 2014 – what it was and wasn’t | Main | Ruminations – 9nov14 (updated 12nov14) »

07 November 2014



BTW, according to Rebane, Cheryl Cook has resigned from The Union’s editorial board. So it’s becoming more “stacked.” Told you so.

Oh well...that's what stamping your feet and stomping off will get you!

Told you so.....


George Rebane

fish 152pm - Please see 20oct14 update at


Posted by: George Rebane | 07 November 2014 at 02:19 PM

I find the writing of Ms. Cook nearly undecipherable!

I'll defer to you George....was she censored....or was she simply offended that Mr. Sauer failed to swoon over the majesty of her thoughts?

I'm stumped.

Todd Juvinall

Ben here is the info from the Sec of State RE: Pelosi's 12th District.

US Congressional 12
District Total
Total Registration 383,736
Democrats 214,616
Republicans 30,802
Other 6,751 23
Percent 55.93% 8.03% 1.76% 0.01%

So tell Nancy she is full of bull excrement for us please!

George Rebane

fish 232pm - From the email of her resignation letter etc, she definitely was not censored by anyone, but simply could not tolerate being on the board with ideological opposites, some of whom would counter her public statements.


Posted by: George Rebane | 07 November 2014 at 02:41 PM

Well then she made the right decision resigning. No sense remaining in an "intolerable" situation.

Bill Tozer

Don't know which one sounds more like Maxine Waters. Ms. Cook or Ms Judith of Nevada City. This was definitely an assault on women and a full blown attack on her character, yeah right. WFT, using words like contempt or rant or a big word such as destruction to describe one's characterization of the ole red, white and blue? Thank you Dr. Rebane for posting this for the world to see, unedited. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I suppose some folks are not use to anything but a monologue. To them a discussion is they talk, you listen, and no response allowed except some good old back slapping "Atta Girl!"s. Anything else (especially debating ideas) is considered an assault one's character.

Thank you, thank you, thank you again Dr. Rebane. However, I take no pleasure when someone makes a complete fool of themselves on the World Wide Web. I need to remember what is coming out of and taught in our institutions of higher learning today. Feelings over substance. Nuff said.

George Rebane

fish 456pm - In situations like that (where ideas are communicated) I would like to see both sides of the ideological divide be represented and defend their beliefs in a public forum. I strongly feel that conservetarian beliefs can successfully stand against collectivism in any form it is presented, and it's important for the ideologically uncommitted and/or confused to witness such a contest of ideas from which they can draw their own conclusions.

This is not the first time that we have seen the progressive side withdraw from such encounters when they are unable to appeal to greater powers to silence the other side. Such behavior is not only a litmus test exposing a dysfunctional ideology, but also the identifying hallmark of its modus operandi.

Given the display of Ms McCarrick's sensibilities and reasoning power in her letter, perhaps The Union should invite her to replace Ms Cook on the editorial board. I would be ecstatic.

Bill Tozer

Dr. Rebane (@17:51 PST). What a splendid suggestion. A bright idea. To add to your positive solution concerning this hysterical emotion-charged episode in the annuals of human history, allow me to offer another positive observation. Ms Judith would be a welcome addition to the Editorial Board precisely because of the fact she holds dear to her heart San Francisco values; something rare, cute and rather amusing in Western Nevada County.

I feel confident her contributions would contain a wealth of material ripe for discussion here and in the Letters to the Editor section of The Union.


I recall the rantings about the 2ND Amendment. Now that the thug protection act has been stupidly passed by the idiot vote ( or by creative voter info pamphlet wording to sound "neutral" (where have we heard that before?) ) our privately owned weapons are more necessary than ever. A thug with a gun inside your home is now a misdemeanor offence.

Account Deleted

Uh oh - doesn't look good for the lefties.
The left complains it's too difficult to find their ID at the voting booth.
What will they do in the future?
"Nearly 50 per cent of occupations today will no longer exist in 2025. New jobs will require creative intelligence, social and emotional intelligence and ability to leverage artificial intelligence."
If they can't find something in their pants with both hands, how will the left manage the future?

Account Deleted

Like shooting fish in a barrel.
"After already receiving a controversial $1.6 billion construction loan from U.S. taxpayers, the wealthy investors of a California solar power plant now want a $539 million federal grant to pay off their federal loan."
Do the Rs want this? No! Does the Tea Party want this? No! Do the Libertarians want this? No!
Oh, where are the so-called lefty independents. They are so tired of wealthy white men being supported by the poor in this country. But this goes on and on and they say nothing. Green energy equals wealthy cons scamming the tax payers.
Your middle of the road, concerned govt at work. Enjoy.

George Rebane

BillT 629pm - On the mark Mr Tozer, on the mark.

ScottO 957pm - You also asked an(other) important question (in another comment thread) as to the nation's source of wealth creation. The Left continues to tell the undecided and unthinking that it is the poor, working at government created jobs, who create the country's wealth. And they would do more of it if it weren't only for the greedy capitalists who stoop to steal most of their hard earned dollars.


Posted by: Scott Obermuller | 07 November 2014 at 09:57 PM

If they can't find something in their pants with both hands, how will the left manage the future?

Manage The Future....? One can only assume with EBT cards and Obamaphones.....or until the money runs out...whichever comes first!


This is an interesting read (regardless of your opinion of the proprietor/site where it's located)....and explains why Ben Emery is not now and will never truly be "a man of the left".

You seem to lack the requisite hate!


These paragraphs will resonate with you I'm sure.....

"I’m a working-class Bohunk. A hundred years ago, leftists loved us. We worked lousy jobs, company thugs shot us when we went on strike, and leftists saw our discontent as fuel for their fire.

Karl Marx promised the workers’ paradise through an inevitable revolution of the proletariat. The proletariat is an industrial working class — think blue-collar people working in mines, mills, and factories: exactly what immigrants like my parents were doing.

Polish-Americans participated significantly in a great victory, Flint, Michigan’s 1937 sit-down strike. Italian-Americans produced Sacco and Vanzetti. Gus Hall was a son of Finnish immigrants.

In the end, though, we didn’t show up for the Marxist happily ever after. We believed in God and we were often devout Catholics. Leftists wanted us to slough off our ethnic identities and join in the international proletarian brotherhood — “Workers of the world, unite!” But we clung to ethnic distinctiveness. Future generations lost their ancestral ties, but they didn’t adopt the IWW flag; they flew the stars and stripes. “Property is theft” is a communist motto, but no one is more house-proud than a first generation Pole who has escaped landless peasantry and secured his suburban nest.

Leftists felt that we jilted them at the altar. Leftists turned on us. This isn’t just ancient history. In 2004, What’s the Matter with Kansas? spent eighteen weeks on the bestseller lists. The premise of the book: working people are too stupid to know what’s good for them, and so they vote conservative when they should be voting left. In England, the book was titled, What’s the Matter with America? (This also factors in to your response to Scott last night about your thousands of friends who can't believe that people vote TEAM STUPID ....we know the the repukes suck....unfortunately most really have no where else to go.)

We became the left’s boogeyman: Joe Six-pack, Joe Hardhat. Though we’d been in the U.S. for a few short decades when the demonization began, leftists, in the academy, in media, and in casual speech, blamed working-class ethnics for American crimes, including racism and the “imperialist” war in Vietnam. See films like The Deer Hunter. Watch Archie Bunker on “All in the Family.” Listen to a few of the Polack jokes that elitists pelted me with whenever I introduced myself at UC Berkeley."

RL Crabb

Jeffy ain't gonna like this! Now it's not just the right wing "Jefferson" nuts bucking the system... http://www.wakingtimes.com/2014/11/05/california-county-passes-historical-law-declaing-right-self-governance/

Bill Tozer

Greats reads both Fish and Crabb. Many words to digest. Much to consider in my wigwam.


Posted by: RL Crabb | 08 November 2014 at 07:56 AM

Good for them!

Russ Steele


Yes, these are the same left wing nuts that have kept cellphone and wireless broadband coverage out of Mendocino, because the radio waves would destroy their children's minds. We sold our Mendo Property this year after coming to the realizations we would never fit in.

That said, I wish our Supervisors had a stiffer spine when it comes to protecting our rights from the left wing idiots in the Sacramento. Good for Mendocino!

RL Crabb

Now if we could just protect our airspace from the UFO chemtrails!


Does that mean "Miracle Grow" is now outlawed there? The organic gang considers it "toxic".

Ben Emery

Please don't forget all of the government and special privileges fossil fuels have received over the years. Just because it is the status quo now doesn't always mean it always was. Tariffs used to be the way it was done to pay for such subsides, it was mercantilism and the way we handled trade in the America for hundreds of years until the Reagan Revolution. No more tariffs but the subsides remained, remove the revenue but keep the hand out. Who pays for it?

In 2010 $550 billion dollars were subsidized to the oil and gas industry world wide.

Bill Tozer

Oh boy, here it comes. the food fight begins. The libs in Texas are now declaring war on any white women who voted for Abbot instead of their Kill All Babies Sex Toy Queen.

Queen Nancy has declared war on every Democrat who failed to get out the vote. She also is blaming the voters!! Stupid voters is why they lost. Well, duh. The voters that did turn out were the ones referenced in Fish's excellent piece above.

The South Carolina libs are calling Scott's historical victory (from any party) racist and are gunning after any black who voted for Scott. Soon they will be kicking down doors and dragging all those Uncle Tom's to the Tree of Woe to be lynched.

Oh, it goes on and on. Hey Nancy, Monica ain't going to gobble the Libbies' goop no more. Blame the voters? Shame on the voters, shame. Why don't you take that finger wagging and clean out your earwax instead.

Definitely an election of which the results have revealed hate, racism, and fear mongering and strong arm tactics. Yeah, give the voters a chance and they rejected the Libbies' politics of destruction. Try something new, you control freak progressives.



Hey Nancy, Monica ain't going to gobble the Libbies' goop no more.

Eeewww.......William! Come on....I was enjoying my coffee! Not so much now!

Bill Tozer

Sorry Mr. fish. I have no idea where that came from. I owe you a cup......or two.

Bill Tozer

What surprises me the most is what I consider normal (in terms of Liberal emotional outbursts and hate) to some is newsworthy. Here is another boring opinion on the tolerance of the Left. Nothing surprising in the least. Could have been written 30 years ago, but I do have a freaky weakness that enjoys seeing bobbleheads exploding in the rear view mirror.


why can't we all just get along. Think some across the aisle would benefit from Anger Management classes.

Account Deleted

"In 2010 $550 billion dollars were subsidized to the oil and gas industry world wide."
Your left wing version of 'subsidies' is highly suspect based on past history.
I'm talking about outright scams that don't work. Is it or is it not OK by you for the working poor in this country to pay for wealthy white 'greenies' to run their scams?
I would remind you that the cost of the petro products I use has gone up mostly due to govt taxes and regs. And a lot of the money I pay in taxes to build and maintain the roads I drive on are now siphoned off for other purposes that I don't benefit from. That's another 'greenie' scam.

George Rebane

BenE 853am - Readers (and you) should know that the "worldwide subsidies" were also made by countries that wanted to attract energy companies to operate in their jurisdictions, employing their people, creating secondary support jobs (yes, trickle down), and paying their taxes. To a propagandist progressive these are demogauged as handouts, and not deals made on a win-win basis. In the US states regularly make such 'subsidy' deals with corporations that they want to attract to relocate within their borders. Would our brave new world collectivist government prohibit the several states from doing so? Perhaps the best answer to this question will be delivered by crickets.


Look at it another way. "Green power" is so cheap, it can't pay for itself.
Isn't this the same plant that needed to burn NG to stay online? ( or was that a diff. plant?)
On the subject of the solar scam, Does Ben forget all the Eagle and endangered bird cooking from those (ha)eco friendly crittier cookers? They got exemptions form the EPA.
Yet we can't dig up one Elderberry bush because of a non existent (around these parts)
Elderberry beetle. Thanks Ben and friends,,,,.

Russ Steele


I have bird kill numbers here: http://sierrafoothillcommentary.com/2014/11/07/renewable-energy-underperforming-environmental-costs-soaring/

We drove by the plant earlier this year and did no see any "streamers", birds on fire in flight, but it was partially high overcast.

The ERC is trying to raise money for subsidies they can pay business that move to Nevada County. I wonder if Ben is against supporting local economic development? Are ERC good subsidies or bad subsidies Ben?

George Rebane

RLCrabb 756am – That is quite a declaration you dug up Bob. As a conservetarian I am in full sympathy with our liberal brethren in Mendocino County re their desire for home rule. Now as you might gather, I don’t exactly agree with all the provisions of their new ‘ordinance’, but that is not for me in Nevada County to decide.

But I do offer the thought that self-determination should be available and practiced to the extent that it is self-funded. (And before the local liberals light off again, this principle is not to be interpreted on a zero/one basis, which seems to be the nature of their reasoning powers.) My point is that if they want to deny revenues to local coffers by banning fracking and promoting notions such as (the mind boggling) ‘Rights of Nature’, then they get to live with the collateral results to which such provisions give rise. In other words, don’t tap my wallet to support your peculiar lifestyle, and vice versa.

Our local lady leading the global adoption of the Rights of Nature is Ms Robin Milam – currently also president of our Nevada City Rotary Club. Readers may recall that Ms Milam has written extensively about nature’s rights in these pages, and readers have debated the pros and cons of implementing such rights.

As with other authoritarian regimes of the past, the Rights of Nature must have human elites who claim special knowledge about what nature wants and needs. These folks (as you read the references in RR) want to expand their belief systems across jurisdictional boundaries without limitation. In the final analysis, they will want to bring to bear the government gun to make all genuflect and conform to what they decree as nature’s rights. And BTW, these fuzzy thinkers, as witnessed by Bob’s excellent link, confuse ‘natural rights’ with ‘Rights of Nature’, claiming that the latter were intended by our Founders with their use of the former in their writings and in our founding documents.

In sum, this aspect of local control may wind up being nothing more than a new tack on the voyage to Agenda21. In spite of that, I support Mendocino County’s local initiative, and hope that they too can support equivalent initiatives like the formation of the State of Jefferson. Then again, perhaps that is asking them to cross one bridge too far.

Todd Juvinall

Regarding oil and gas subsidies. Most of those are tax credits for drilling and exploration, not a subsidy for the company's day to day. If as Ben says there are or were 550 billion bucks in them, that was leveraged into what 500 trillion over the last 60 years? So, tell me what happened to the 21 trillion we transferred to the poor in America Ben Emery. Did it leverage out like oil and gas? Nope, the poverty rate is the same or worse.

Bill Tozer

Ecuador was the first country to have Rights of Nature enshrined in its Constitution. Equal rights to boot. Equal to humanoids. So, how has that been working?

They told the UN climate folks to go pound cocoa leaves. They are drilling in the Amazon Rainforest to the disbelief of our never quiet friends. They also want no part of the Global Warmers' plan to reforest 1 million acres.

They did give the Greenies one opportunity to stop the drilling. Told them that you can start making payments to us in 10 billion dollar deposits and we won't drill, baby, drill. That is just the first installment to get Ecuador to think about it. A few hundred billion is needed for the mere consideration of the sovereign nation to scrape it's drilling plans in lieu of just compensation for lost revenue.

Per my daily Ecuador/Colombia updates from Google, I believe they are drilling full speed ahead. Got to keep the lights on and pay for their low low low cost of food, healthcare, and 50 cent a gallon petro for the people.

Guess no one from the Mean Green Eco Machine showed them any Yankee Greenbacks. Money feeds people, Nature eats not so much.


Russ.. Now that would be a million hit youtube video in 24hrs. if you had caught a bird
auguring in with a smoke trail in tow. I have suggested a "fry of they day,, Sun kill diner" just outside the plant. Now that would be worth the desolate drive just to see what's on the menu.( maybe an app for that?)

Now a new push for a co-gen plant right outside of town. Haven't we already been through that dog fight? Same plant, same place, same gripes to come. Who's money is getting burned this time to push it? ( Don't look at me,,, I was in favor the first time. Seems everything That looks good to me, the "other side" hates it.) But Hell... What do I know?

The same yappers will demand a solar farm on that spot. ( like they did the last time)

Account Deleted

Thanks for the heads up, Bob - good luck to Mendocino with their efforts.
My question would be to the folks on the left: If the Tea Party espouses the same line, why are they evil and the Mendocino folks wonderful?


Heard a good way to describe the beliefs of "O".
" He is listening to the 2/3ds that did't vote... he is doing such a good job that there was no reason to vote"
Yes, that's the LIB reasoning.

Ben Emery

As usual, you miss the bigger point. All established industry has had government help, hell many of them were born out of government programs. If not born out of directly linked to a government program of some sort. This is where you are oblivious, government from the very beginning and even pre revolution helped industry a.k.a. picking winners and losers. So to pick one industry and say they need to do it on their own to prove they are worthy is ludicrous. Another example you guys like to use is Organic agriculture, it is the actual cost of food since they do not receive subsides or if they have started subsidizing organic, it is nominal.

Russ Steele

Our two lefties, Ms Cheryl Cook and Ms Judith McCarrick, should take notice:

Bang! For the first time, a growing — and already substantial — majority of Americans now believe having a gun in the home makes it a safer place to live.

Put that in your chamber and cock it.

Gallup, which has been surveying the politically volatile question for a generation, announced this morning a new poll revealing that nearly two-out-of-three Americans (63%) now say having a firearm there makes a home safer.

That’s nearly twice the number who said that just before 9/11.

And the explosion of support has come across all political boundaries. Back in the fall of 2000, barely a third thought that (35%), while a majority (51%) said guns made homes more dangerous.

But the number who say guns increase home safety has been steadily increasing while the number who see them as increasing danger has been steadily declining — from 35% in 2000 to 42% four years later to 47% in 2006 and now a jump all the way up to 63%.

The more guns I add to my collection the safer I feel.


I say to Ben, more businesses have been done in by government that have been born of it.
Take my own Father for example. He built his business starting right on his kitchen table.
No help from the government what so ever. From selling box lunches on the streets of S.F.
and building the largest catering Co. in all of the Bay. He cut out the middle man and raised his own poultry and beef here,to supply his business there.
Good luck doing that today.
You can thank dear ol' Dad for the beginnings of food safety. He started writing that book.

Ben. Do tell how government put Henry Ford in business. How about Holt machinery? John Deere?
Your beloved Government gave us the likes of Solyindra.
Yup, I bet you even agree with Hillary. " Don't let anyone tell you businesses create jobs".
Never mind the 400 employees Dad used to employ at the height of his food empire.
Naaaa, He didn't build that...(Right Ben?)


BTW Ben,, it was government that closed our mines. It demanded the war metals that came from here,(now do some homework to find out just what those were.)and forced the end of gold production. Then it fixed the price of gold. Then when the war ended the mined had to close because it was unprofitable to mine it. Miners turned into loggers. Then what happened to them thanks to government? (those great regulations you love so much is a good clue.)

Bill Tozer

Scott @ 1511, 11/08/2014

Why? Cause they wear white hats and ride white horses and we wear black hats and ride sinister black stallions in the dead of night. They be the good guys, we be the bad guys, Satan's spawn if you prefer. Kind of like spy vs spy with Alfred E Newman in the Oval Office. It is the burden we must carry as part of the evil Vast Right Wing Conspiracy. For evidence of us being the bad evil guys, just look how many joyous Dem victory celebrations we ruined. Heck, flushing the punch bowl at Harry and Barry's party is a a down right bad thing to do, not to mention making Nancy and Downer Debbi look like fools. That is something only the black hats would do. Our depths of depravity knows no bounds.

Bill Tozer

Holy Mackerel, them peasants are getting uppity again. They should stay on their farms and put their pitchforks down. A sorry brut ignorant lot they are.

Go Mendiciino County, go. Best wishes and fight the good fight.


Joe Koyote

"Gallup, which has been surveying the politically volatile question for a generation, announced this morning a new poll revealing that nearly two-out-of-three Americans (63%) now say having a firearm there makes a home safer.

That’s nearly twice the number who said that just before 9/11."

It seems as if the war on terror has been a boon for the arms industry…. hmmmmm… .just like Ike said

Ben Emery

To many questions to answer in full, as you all know I get long winded/typed.

Much like most Rebane's "conservative" regulars the big picture alludes you.

Doesn't it seem peculiar that you guys pick and choose when government involvement is good or bad. Oil and Gas subsides GOOD, Alternative Energy subsides BAD. You don't want government to pick winners and losers but that is exactly what our Foreign Policy has been since the beginning of our country. You guys want to continue that same policy of American Exceptionalism. Turning a blind eye to your proclaimed "convictions" seems to be a favorite past time.

-How about public roads and highway system? $120plus billion government investment
No roads means no need for mass production of cars.

-How about the government passed law of bankruptcy? Henry Ford filed for bankruptcy many many times.

-How about all the subsides the Ford companies received over the years?
Hell it helped build the largest middle class of all time so I am not complaining because coupled with the Top Marginal Tax Rate being at 91% until the 60's and then 74% until Reagan Revolution those subsides went into worker pay/ benefits and R&D. When the taxes changed so did the incentives that is when we saw the huge influx of monied interests dominating the political system. Then came the virtual elimination of the import tariff and then NAFTA/WTO that basically blew the doors off of any protection of American manufacturing. That is exactly when both personal debt and public debt skyrocketed. That is when government assistance began to grow when the American worker could no longer afford the lifestyle that was set up. That is also when the big banks knew they had to deregulate to get people easy credit and that is also when the banking crisis came back into play and huge bubble economies.

Ben Emery

Paul Emery and his band are ripping it up on the radio right now performing in what I am assuming is a packed Nevada Theatre. It is an opening concert for the partnership of KVMR/ Nevada Theatre.


Nice try Ben. We all pay at the pump to pay for roads. That's until that fund gets raided by LIBS to pay for some pet project. Then the roads got to shit and then LIBS whine for more taxes on fuel. Before that, back in the horse and buggy days, the farmers maintained the roads. They needed to. That was the only way they could get their goods to market.
Grand Dad was an original "teamster" he owned his own fright wagon that was pulled by Oxen.
Only in the 1900s did the "G" man step in. That's less than 100 years ago did "the man" you love so dear start thinking "he knows best". John Q. Public was doing just fine when government stayed in it's place. There is not a damned thing government can do cheaper or better than private enterprise can.
Take the war on poverty. More people are in poverty than ever. More people are unemployed than ever. All thanks to LIB government. But HAY!! More laws and regulations will fix that!... Right?

Bill Tozer

ah, the choice between two evils.


The Occupy crowd has more numbers and growing by the day. Walt, we are doomed!


JoeK... Even more guns will be bought in Ca. now that the thug protection act has been passed by the dumbshit vote. Hell! even steeling a gun here is now just a ticketable
offence. ( if it's less than 950 bucks) I hope to see many a home invader sent to Hell
by an armed homeowner.
BTW The Ca. waiting period to by a gun has been deemed unconstitutional!
That now only applies to first time buyers now, and that the person can get that gun just as soon as the background check is done. The state could not defend it's position and reasoning for that waiting period.
And count on even more CWPs to the public.
Ya' know what they say,, With 911 the cops are more than minutes away when seconds count.

People want that protection, and you can thank "O" and Co. They have been the best gun salesmen.
Ya' think letting illegals flood over the boarder helped? How bout all the illegals that are responsible for criminal activity getting turned loose by the cops and courts and not deported, and are free to do more crime?
We have two dead cops right down the road to give proof to that.

Ben Emery

Please tell me what you think government is and does?

We pay at the pumps to pay for the roads, to who?


Naaa,,, you tell me. Ben... Try reading the Constitution first. It spells out what it's "supposed" to be. Then get back to me. ( there will be a test)

A little something for Joe.

Ben Emery

You are on the brink of seeing how the idea of a Free Market is a myth, keep going I am proud of you. Investment and building of infrastructure, rules, and enforcement of those rules are what create markets.



You are on the brink of seeing how the idea of a Free Market is a myth, keep going I am proud of you. Investment and building of infrastructure, rules, and enforcement of those rules are what create markets.

Sorry Walt but Ben is really correct in this instance. There are virtually no free markets because in a free market the government doesn't collect its "skim" from the transaction.

So you can see where a "free market" would be anathema to governments at all levels.

In fact the notion of "free market" is almost as silly as the notion of a vast, well funded and activist government that exists to...snicker....serve the needs of the "masses"....guffaw.......CACKLE!!.

(hold on....I'm going to need a moment to compose myself.......coffee out nose......just another second more....snort....whew......better now!......sigh!)

Ben you gotta stop doing that to me so early in the a.m.! That was almost as funny as when Steve listed his various local beautification projects and "Climate Action Plan" preparation as evidence of real economic activity.

I've heard it said that you leftists have no sense of humor. That's crap....you guys crack me up on a near daily basis!


Ben. A few more people looking what to do next thanks to the "G"man. and LIB special interest.

In today's day and age, if a job is gone a Progressive killed it.

George Rebane

Free markets - yes, it is a relative term. Most people agree that in its purest form a jurisdiction supports a free market if you can sell anything to anyone, anywhere, any time at any price. That the jurisdiction takes a cut (tribute) of the transaction is really not a factor as long as such a cut doesn't inhibit the transaction between willing sellers and buyers.

'Free market' as an economic reality has meanings in the aggregate and in its specifics. In the aggregate we think of a country supporting a free market when it permits free market transactions (defined above) for most goods and services without having to seek inhibiting permissions or paying stultifying tributes.

Free markets can also exist for specific goods/services and not others.

As such, we conservetarians believe in minimally regulated free markets as an ideal that promotes in society a broadly beneficial quality of life. Do we still have a free market in America? Not really; those days are long gone. But do we have a freer market here than, say, in China? Yes definitely.

The free markets problem that we argue on RR is that collectivists of all stripes seek to diminish free markets in commerce, and conservetarians want to expand them. Thus endeth the epistle for the day ;-)


Free markets can also exist for specific goods/services and not others.

Indeed! You can get a kilo of cocaine or a crate of AK-47s in a "free" or "black market". In times of ham fisted government interference or under totalitarian regimes it is frequently the only place where you can get goods of (vegetables, meat, medicines etc.) decent quality. Maybe a little expensive but available!

The Black Market is why the former Soviet Union never starved.

George Rebane

fish 956am - Right you are. All totalitarian regimes have tolerated black markets to allow their economies to creak along without, of course, admitting it. In the USSR such transactions were said to be 'on the left' or 'nalevo'. (But black markets are really not free in the sense of my 929am.)

Isn't it interesting how easy it is to detect tyranny, even in its early stages? Approaching tyranny readily gives itself away to all but the most naïve who continue their loyalty, justifying its necessity as a means of dispensing equality and fairness. And some of them continue that support even as they are being led to the wall.


The free market taken extremes becomes what is referred to as the "black market". I found it entertaining that Ben was unable to explain commerce that didn't require the guiding hand of government to make it function. Early trade fairs and the like that fostered modern trade all occurring without the 3rd rate minds at the Department of Commerce generating "mission statements" and providing networking facilitators.

I think that his is a riff off some of the Cass Sunstein quotes that were floated shortly after he was made the "czar" of something or another.

They couldn't stuff him back into his sound proof case soon enough....can't let what the proggies really think about business into the real world without guides and interpreters to cushion the impact.


Some LIBS LOVE the black market. they have even bragged about it, and have made excuses for it.
I give you our local MJ profiteers. " If it wasn't for MJ Nevada County would go under".
yet these guys hate the idea of the "G"man getting his cut. ( taxes)


Some LIBS LOVE the black market.

Some do.

Russ Steele

More on the great divide between urban and rural in Thinking Out Loud

Here a sample from the blog post:

The Atlantic magazine took up this theme in a November 2012 article, that the US political divide was a rural-urban one:

The new political divide is a stark division between cities and what remains of the countryside. Not just some cities and some rural areas, either -- virtually every major city (100,000-plus population) in the United States of America has a different outlook from the less populous areas that are closest to it. The difference is no longer about where people live, it's about how people live: in spread-out, open, low-density privacy -- or amid rough-and-tumble, in-your-face population density and diverse communities that enforce a lower-common denominator of tolerance among inhabitants.

The voting data suggest that people don't make cities liberal -- cities make people liberal. [My emphasis.]

This divide is how things are trending:
This divide between blue city and red countryside has been growing for some time. Since 1984, more and more of America's major cities have voted blue each year, culminating in 2012, when 27 out of the nation's 30 most populous cities voted Democratic. According to Dave Leip's Atlas of U.S. Presidential Elections and The New York Times, the 2012 election marked the fourth time in the last five federal election cycles that voters shifted away from the party of the sitting president. Despite that constant churn, one part of the electoral map has become a crystal clear constant. Cities, year by year, have become drenched in more blue. Everywhere else is that much more red.

For years, this continues: Urban and rural counties jostling with a small pool of counties which go back and forth every couple of elections. There's no real realignment, just a constant tug of war as the nation grows further divided.

Don Bessee

I noticed a post on Todd Juvinals blog that lefty jeffy went apoplectic about my post on Todd's blog thanking the truth tells for their help on measure S. So over on lefty jeffies liberal lament land he shows the post hit a lefty jeffy tender spot. Then the sock puppet annie fox jumps in with more inanities. But what is worth noting is 'her' comment about no on s signs still being up (they are statutorily due down next week). The only place they were still up then was truckee. So who or what ever annie fox is, they are looking at the world with a truckee view out their window. Lefty jeffy just does not have the courage of his convictions to admit he loves his lefties and would have been pattie smiths supporter if she had not gone after lefty jeffies sacred cow diaz. :-)

George Rebane

RussS 1224pm - could it be that it's too difficult for the dependent and variously disadvantaged to live in low density areas where people have to make do, be social and helping, where anonymity is hard practice, especially if you are an asshole? High density areas have all the desiderata and support structures for such people and their lifestyles. Yet the wide open spaces still beckon. But when they arrive, they do everything possible to soil their new nests into similes of the ones they abandoned.

Russ Steele

Obama Virus Discovered - Causes Stupidity in Humans

A virus that infects human brains and makes us more stupid has been discovered, according to scientists in the US.

The algae virus, never before observed in healthy people, was found to affect cognitive functions including visual processing and spatial awareness.

Scientists at Johns Hopkins Medical School and the University of Nebraska stumbled upon the discovery when they were undertaking an unrelated study into throat microbes.

Surprisingly, the researchers found DNA in the throats of healthy individuals that matched the DNA of a virus known to infect green algae.

So far, there is no evidence that "Going Green" Democrats are more vulnerable, more study needed.

Details, it is a real virus: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/virus-that-makes-humans-more-stupid-discovered-9849920.html

Account Deleted

Ben at 10:16 - "Investment and building of infrastructure, rules, and enforcement of those rules are what create markets."
Nope - demand is what creates markets. The above mentioned are modifiers of the market. We can all agree that rules of conduct - enforced EQUALLY are most important. When the govt starts putting it's thumb on the scales of fairness, equality goes out the door and businesses end up subsidizing their competitors. And corruption becomes rampant in govt.
More govt involvement in the market equals more corruption in govt.
It's that simple. We can strive for a free market. Just because we can't have a perfect free market doesn't make the principles of a free market bad.

George Rebane

ScottO 704pm - The good news is that in a society with advancing technology, it is also supply that creates markets. No one demanded cars until they were made available, the same with TV's, airplanes, smartphones, etc. But governments seem to have a monopoly in mangling and strangling markets.

Bill Tozer

Black Market? Sounds racist to me.

Cuba is keeping a blind eye on it's growing black market. Growing? Yes. Castro Bros. in the dark? No. It's a necessary evil to the Revolutionaries in charge. They have discovered they need dollars, badly. The black market provides the country with much need US dollars. Of course the People's Revolutionary Government of Cooobaaa runs the currency exchange and takes their outlandish cut as well as the dollars. Retailers accepting Greenbacks is a crime....a crime against the Revolution.


Where is good ol' Ben when ya' need to force feed him? He loves to yap about the stupidity of the voters.
Here is a LIB spilling the beans on just that.

Only the majority of LIBS fell for the "free health care" line of crap.

Account Deleted

I would disagree partially about supply creating demand. Early automobiles were literally horseless carriages. There is always demand for better transportation. Millions of folks wanted to get rid of the horse. It was expensive to maintain when not in use and the poop in the cities was a terrible health problem. They may not have exactly envisioned what a carriage with out a horse was, but they sure took to it as soon as it became inexpensive and reliable. The 'demand' for the auto was always there in the form of 'demand' for a contrivance to sit in and go some where without having to tire one's self. The auto was simply the latest iteration going back to sedan chairs and dog sleds and such. There are a lot of electronic gadgets that are unknown to the public until they are released for sale, but I would argue that if they are popular, they must have filled a demand at some level that was always there. So maybe the demand is not always there for the exact item offered for sale, but it must fulfill some sort of need that previously existed in some basic way. Was there a 'demand' for Hula Hoops before Whammo marketed them? One could easily argue not. Who was going into toy stores and asking for a cheap plastic hoop to twirl around their waist? No one. But in a more general way, there exists (then and now) an ongoing demand for a simple new type of amusement.
Gets down to semantics. Is there a market for avacados amongst those who have never heard of them? But there is always a demand (market) for a new type of enjoyable and tasty food.
Now - is there a market for energy that is inefficient to produce and more expensive than the energy it is to replace? Of course not.
But the govt needs to force you to buy it in order that connected crooks can run their scams. The crooks get richer and you have no choice but to pay them. I kinda like the free market better.

Bill Tozer

Walt, thanks for the link. BTW, Brother Ben has stated many many times he does not like Obamacare but prefers single payer. Obamacare simply does not go far enough. It's one thing to have health insurance and quite another to have health care. People sign up for Obamacare not cause they like it, but rather it is illegal not to. That will drive numbers any day of the week.

Walt, once again your link provided me with another link. This is something that I really enjoyed tonight and what I have been looking for ever since the election results came in. Definitely worth the enjoyment to read all 16 posts. Thank you again Mr. Walt. U B Da Man.


Bill Tozer

Scott, good thoughts. While I do not necessarily disagree with your thought out response, allow me to add my take.

How many of us grew up without a computer like generations before us only to discover that we wanted one. Through time, availablity, price reductions, and improvements we discovered that a computer became no longer a want, but a need.

Now my real point. Remember that story of Adam and Eve running around the garden of Eden before the fig leaf days. They had everything. No wants, no needs, no pain, no aging, no death, all was good. Plus they talked to God everyday and walked in the cool of Eden. No bloodshed, no toil. What more could anyone want or need? All that was destroyed in seconds by less than 12 words. Look at the apple. See how appealing it is. Go ahead, take a bite. You see how it glistens, calling your name....hmmmm, does it not look so tasty, so delicious, so appealing and....drumroll please....it has special powers that will make you like God. Chomp, chomp, end of Eden.

That IMHO, is the root of all advertising. And all advertising had not changed a lick since then. Create a want that people did not know they had and turn that want into a need. Feel like a lonely bored housewife? Heck, light up a Virginia Slims are you are empowered. You have come a long way, baby. Like your cell phone? Well, can YOUR cell phone do this? Sure, you cell phone is only 6 months old, but you want, you need, you now desire this new one. You gotto,gotto,gotto,gotto have it!

Yes, we do have needs, needs to make our lives better or easier. That is why necessity is the mother of invention. But, I have often pondered what was the need of the first human to lick that jungle frog's underbelly and discovered it would make him or her hallicinate. What caused that person to look at the frog and lick it's belly? What want or need was unfulfilled? Another one of life's great mysteries.

George Rebane

ScottO 828pm - Scott, the tack you take with your demand argument creates a self-fulfilling tautology. One can always maintain that humans want more and different kinds of sustenance, comfort, security, amusement, ..., therefore every thing that satisfies one of those categories of wants or needs will be seen as demand creating markets. But that is not the way most free market economists (and I) interpret markets. Markets are usually identified as being the arenas where certain types of things are exchanged - there is a market for wheat, for roof shingles, and also for hula hoops and smart phones. But the markets for hula hoops and smart phones, and hence the demand for those things, would not have existed had not someone invented them and established a business to manufacture and make them available for a consumer to consider buying. Such market innovations involve 'push' and therefore are deemed to be supply originated and driven.

Ben Emery

Wages are what create demand, people having money to spend creates demand. A person can need a new roof but doesn't have the money so the roof isn't ever contracted to be put on. That was the whole idea oddly enough behind Ford raising his wages for his workers. It was actually an adviser/ partner who fought Ford over it and won the argument. This action started the idea that corporations legal obligation is to make money first for its shareholders in the Dodge vs. Ford decision.


.......wages are what create demand, people having money to spend creates demand.

And the source of these demand generating wages would be?

George Rebane

fish 458am - The exact question that my extended slumber made me late in asking this morning (what the hell are you doing up at 5am?). I do hope that BenE will take a swing at an answer - it would be most interesting.


......what the hell are you doing up at 5am?

Any grave shift posting by me can almost always be attributed to:

1) Canine needs

2) Mild insomnia coupled to an insatiable lust for "Peet's Coffee"!

3) Preparation for the morning commute.

Account Deleted

"Wages are what create demand"
So, if there is no money, no one wants anything.
No food, no shelter, no clothing - nothing.
Must be a nice existence in that other universe you live in, Ben.
I will agree that if I have more money, I'd buy more, but then if the govt takes it away, (higher taxes) there is less to invest or spend, so the economy suffers. The part of the equation you lefties miss is how the money is obtained. If the workers' wages are based on a free market between a willing buyer and seller, then it works. If the wages are increased by the govt or an outside force beyond the value the employer receives from the worker, then the employer will either go out of business, raise prices, (negating the raise) take the jobs elsewhere or automate and get rid of workers. Anyone expending their own money must be able to make a free decision as to how much they want to pay for a service, product or whatever. They alone will have the best information as to what the actual value for money is at that time and for that product or service.


Posted by: Scott Obermuller | 10 November 2014 at 08:46 AM

So, if there is no money, no one wants anything.

Bens economic "Order of Operations" reminds me a bit of the old Steve Martin routine about how to be a millionaire and never pay taxes....

First....get a million dollars!

Account Deleted

Bill at 9:55 - as for advertising - yes, one can definitely gin up demand for something with the right ad. I highly recommend a book entitled 'They Laughed When I Sat Down'. Amazon lists used ones for less than a buck. Highly educational and entertaining book about modern advertising.

Todd Juvinall

Just got back from the DMV. The whole process reminds me of the last scene in "Beetlejuice" when Michael Keaton swiped the ticket from the headhunter. My GOD what have we wrought in this state? It is the most ridiculous system! Now I see why it is used as an example of what is happening woth ObamaCare. We are screwed!

Ben Emery

Chris Hedges says what many of us are feeling on the left. The difference between liberals and progressives has never been clearer.


Ben Emery

10 November 2014 at 09:58 AM

Now just imagine being the working poor and having to take a day off work to stand in line to get an official ID to vote?

Todd Juvinall

Ben Emery, you gotta be kidding? I can't believe you think the poor are so stupid they can't figure out how to get an ID. Why are you so derisive of them? They are as capable;e as you and me to obtain an ID and I bet they too can walk and chew gum at the same time. What are you? A reincarnated plantation owner?

Bill Tozer

We all have to take time off to get an ID or wait for the phone guy or see the doctor or transfer a vehicle or........life is sooo hard. A trail of tears I tell 'ya.

Bill Tozer

Fish @8:45am, 11/10/2014
"What the Sam Hill are you doing up at 5:00am?"

Early to bed, early to rise.


Early to bed, early to rise.

Very funny William!

Early to chair....fall asleep, book in hand about three minutes later! Drag carcass to bed at 9:30....get up at 2:00 am to relieve internal pressure...return to a sea of expectant furry, black and tan faces....release the assembled masses into back yard for 10 minutes.....rinse and repeat at 3:00a and again at 5:00a!


George Rebane

BenE 1107am - According to your lights what distinguishes a 'liberal' from a 'progressive'?

Is there any evidence that anyone has had to "take a day off work to stand in line to get an official ID to vote"? I venture that if voters needed IDs and stated that need, then 1) there would be a location with no line whatsoever that would serve them, and 2) a call to the local (Democratic) party HQ would get them convenient and free transport to get that ID.

Todd Juvinall

Ben Emery, if a person can travel over to Sam's Club or to Costco, join the membership, you get a GASP! Photo ID! I am sure there are many more companies in this great country that do the same.

Ben Emery

You guys really cannot sympathize with another person can you?

Ben Emery

We don't have ID Laws in CA. So I am obviously not talking about CA. I am talking about almost every swing state that has a Republican legislature that passed the ID Laws.

You work 50 hours a week Monday - Friday for $10 an hour with no benefits for a boss who doesn't give a shit if you vote or not just if you show up on time and stay late. Your work day starts at 7am because you take public transportation to work. Your work day ends at 7pm with the public transportation home. You have a wife and young child. The nearest DMV is 20 minutes from where you work with at least one transfer but you only have an hour lunch break at the same time a million other people have a lunch break.

Would you take a day off work to go stand in line to obtain a photo ID recognized by the polls?

Bill Tozer

States are already picking those without an ID and transporting them on the taxpayer's dime to the local iD office. Those are states that want to guarantee that only citizens legally vote, the states that actually care about all who are entitled to vote, the states that care so deeply they are willing to stand up to fraud and abuse. They even bend over backwards to expedite the process. Bring your electric bill and whatever you got and they will help you obtain a legal ID. No postage stamp necessary.
All states that boarder the deep blue Pacific Ocean do not care who votes legally. They do not give a hoot about the sanctity of the ballot box. Must be that Citizen of the World thang, where American's interest always always take a back seat to
other two-bit countries, places, and things. We're #2, we're #2!

George Rebane

BenE 906am - nice archetypical progressive anecdote, but no evidence - and you did totally ignore my 818am points, now abetted by Mr Tozer's 909am.

And to your question I answer a most emphatic YES! if that were the only path available for me to exercise my most sacrosanct responsibility as a citizen of republican democracy.

Ben Emery

"And the source of these demand generating wages would be?"

Drum roll.........


At the absolute minimum we need shelter, food, clothing, and medical. Go ahead and start making the list of items and products that are needed for these absolute basic necessities. Once the basic necessities are met alternative markets begin to spin off from there to either make the production of the basic goods easier or possibly pleasure

Ben Emery

"In fact the notion of "free market" is almost as silly as the notion of a vast, well funded and activist government that exists to...snicker....serve the needs of the "masses"....guffaw.......CACKLE!!."

I agree. There has never been a totally responsive government but that doesn't mean we don't try to achieve does it?

That is the dance we all play everyday, you guys in your quest for the mythical free market and my representative government.

Ben Emery

I actually agree with most of what you wrote. I am actually a proponent of creating a local currency to get off of the magical currency the Federal Reserve produces with interest attached to it(for the people not for the big banks). A primitive currency that is a step above barter. The problem is getting enough people to participate initially to make it viable.

This local currency would in no way replace the US Dollar but just allow us to participate in some parts of our lives without propping the system that we all disagree with at some level. A few years back something like this was being tried in Nevada City but not enough people got on board, so it never really went anywhere.


Posted by: Ben Emery | 11 November 2014 at 09:17 AM

So then I can take this as an admission that "demand" for things...commodities....shelter.....etc. precedes? It seemed that you didn't believe that a functional economy could start until everybody had pockets full of money!


That is the dance we all play everyday, you guys in your quest for the mythical free market and my representative government.

Partial credit....let me just tighten this up for you a bit!

That is the dance we all play everyday, you guys in your quest for the free market and my mythical representative government.

Yeah...that seems to reflect reality a little more.

Ben Emery


I get your point but that is the foundation of demand. Demand in economics is created by wages. We are talking about economics/ wealth correct?

This is where we all get weaselly with the way we approach topics. There are distinctions that we all know exist but fail to recognize when it suits our argument.

Bill Tozer

Ben's scenario (9:09am) portrays a person who is too busy to even make it to the ballot box to vote. That is why people like moi who usually work late on Tuesdays (elections fall every couple of years on Tuesdays, do they not?) vote by mail if we chose to.
Once that poor down trodden person of the oppressed class in those other states register to vote with a valid ID, they can kick down for the cost of postage and fill out their ballot in their leaky almost falling down abode with no indoor plumbing and somehow make it to a mailbox with weeks to spare. It's a one time thang, just like getting a passport. Renewal by mail, vote by mail. One day off work is the sacrifice we all make to have our opposed voices heard.

As Ben correctly pointed out, the bossman McScrooge does not care if his indentured servants vote. It is up to the voter to make the effort. Freedom is not free and the cost of liberty is eternal vigilance, I.e., effort.
Makes me wonder what the poor suffering hard working slaves do when they get "the call" from the school telling them to come down to pick up their child, bad Dezarrai now. What happens when they get that call from the medics that sweet little Soshamm got hit by a car riding his bike after school and get to the ER now. Guess the opposed working class can not make it when those calls come in, usually at exactly the wrong time. You know those calls that the poor worker ignores because they are helpless and care more about making another 20 bucks than leaving work early to attend to family emergencies or vote. They are sooo materialistic.
Is there no justice granted by the oppressor to the oppressed?


Posted by: Ben Emery | 11 November 2014 at 11:53 AM

We are talking about economics/ wealth correct?

I no longer know.

I get your point but that is the foundation of demand. Demand in economics is created by wages.

You seem to proceed from two separate premises.

The first (and correct me if I am interpreting you in error) is:

"Drum roll.........


The second is: "Demand in economics is created by wages"

At least with the first you can start your argument. Human needs cause people to engage in behaviors to maintain their own lives and the lives of their offspring (hunting, agriculture etc.) This leads over time to trade and specialization. Over a longer interval a mature economy, similar to what we are familiar developed.

The second appears to be warmed over Keynesian nonsense and is reminiscent to the Steve Martin routine I mentioned yesterday..."how do you become a millionaire and never pay taxes.....first...get a million dollars"! Using your "wages create demand" argument there doesn't seem to be any way to get from point A to point B.

How without the slow evolution of primitive to sophisticated economies do you ever get to the "wages cause demand" stage?

The comments to this entry are closed.