Reflections on Islam (updated 12jan15)

George Rebane

The pen is mightier than the sword only to the extent that it can evoke more powerful swords.

As millions of others on this planet, my thoughts have turned to Islam and its role in the ongoing global reign of terror exemplified again by the slaughter in Paris last week.  These reflections have been piqued by the diversity of reporting and commentary on these attacks, and how many in the news, commentary, and government industries have trouble calling a spade a spade.  To be accurate, there are a precious few outlets and commentators that dare connect Islam to these events, but most speak only of disconnected and broadbrush notions like ‘criminality’ and ‘terror’ which blossom forth spontaneously out of the void.

This morning listening to NPR I heard an extended interview with Irshad Manji the author of The Trouble with Islam (2004).  She taught us that in addition to fundamental and moderate Muslims, there now exists a group identified as “reformed Muslims”.  She never said from what these folks had managed to reform themselves, but the tenets of this newest version of Islam seems to have been transplanted from the reformed versions of Christianity and Judaism which have succumbed to the siren call of secular humanism, but have yet to complete their wholesale renunciation of their former religions.

Ms Manji waxed eloquently about the proper understanding of the Quran which really teaches non-violence, condemns terror, encourages self-discovery of beliefs, promotes free expression, and elevates women in society.  These finer points of progressive Islam have been missed over the centuries, and continue to be misunderstood.  She also seems happy to have discovered that Muslims marrying outside their faith tends to dilute the stricter teachings of the prophet, and will over time bring Islam into a state of rapprochement in countries where such intermingling of cultures is fostered and tolerated.  But what the poor woman apparently misses completely is that that is the raison d’etre for Islamist jihad – Islam per se cannot survive in multi-cultural amalgams such as exist in liberal western countries.

This report wouldn’t be complete without mentioning that her astounding revelations about Islam have brought forth an uncountable number of the obligatory death threats from fellow believers who for centuries have held quite different views about free expression.

Today our fearful, ignorant, and/or progressive commentators fill the airwaves with condemnations of “terrorists who use Islam for cover”.  The implication here is that these killers are intrinsically evil and would in any case go shoot up satirical publications, Jewish delis, slaughter thousands of fellow countrymen, machinegun kids in classrooms, and crash planes into buildings.  They are claiming to be devout Muslims only because Islam provides a handy scripture that promotes and condones such attacks.  All this terror is only intrinsic evil seeking an umbrella of twisted legitimacy.

Fortunately, more reasoned and civilized Muslim writers and leaders have recently started questioning this claimed legitimacy, a questioning that is still under the lamestream’s radar.  Leaders like Eqypt’s president Al-Sisi who openly in a large Islamic forum questioned the motives and means of the Islamic jihad, and worried about how the world’s population will hold its 1.6B Muslims to account for the large scale carnage that now covers most of the world within reach of its state-sponsored terrorists and terror cells.  These Muslims are confirming to the rest of us that we really are in a war between civilizations in which Islam is using terror as a weapon, not terrorists using Islam as a legitimizing cover.  In this context some more thoughtful of these voices question, ‘Does Moderate Islam Exist?’

When considered in this light, the ‘Je Suis Charlie’ demonstrations this weekend in Paris and other cities continue to miss the point, and IMHO are bringing much joy and satisfaction to Islamists worldwide.  They show how world leaders can march down the broad boulevard of a defenseless western city claiming “solidarity” in everything under the sun – Charlie Hebdo, war on terror, wanton killings of innocents, respect for all cultures, free speech, tolerance for satire,  … - except recognition of the resumption of an historic global conflict.

Meanwhile the Islamic State has become the exemplar and rallying quest for tendentiously radical Muslims everywhere.  IS has demonstrated the next phase of jihad that has added the conquest and administration of territory to the ongoing acts of Islamist terror.  Boko Haram in Africa has duplicated the feat and now controls a large section of northeast Nigeria.  Similar conquests are prepared on the Indochina peninsula and the Philippines, all while progressive western governments are seeking new ways ‘to show respect’ for the burgeoning Muslim enclaves in their cities.  Yes, they are indeed celebrating in places like Teheran, Mosul, and Benghazi.

All this is going on while we continue to ask ‘What is Moderate Islam?’  Into this confusion noted Muslim intellectual and writer Dr Tawfik Hamid advises us that “until the leading Islamic scholars provide a peaceful theology that clearly contradicts the violent views of the IS, the existence of a 'moderate Islam' must be questioned.”

[12jan15 update]  To illustrate how western media abet Islamic terror, one need only read the leading editorial in this week’s Economist.  There that iconic sage of the newspaper industry admonishes its western readers to examine two “themes” from the Paris attacks to see if something bigger has been afoot here during the last two decades.

One is free speech, and whether it should have limits, self-imposed or otherwise. The answer to that is an emphatic no. The second is Muslim Europe—and whether episodes such as this are part of a civilisational struggle between Western democracies and extreme Islam, on a battlefield stretching continuously from Peshawar to Raqqa to the centre of Paris. Again, the answer is no.

Well, maybe batting 500 is pretty good in that league, but I don’t think so.  After having pooh-poohed the reality of a civilizational struggle that has gone on for one and a half millennia and now conceded by observers of all faiths, the Economist’s mavens blithely go on to detail the “battlefield stretching continuously” over the entire world.  But please don’t connect the dots because these are just “criminals, not clashing civilizations”.

But a little later we read that those who can connect the dots may well “have a point”, that “there may well be a connection between Paris and foreign jihad. Part of it is ideological: in their minds, at least, terrorists in the West are often waging a worldwide battle for their faith, powered by ideas they pick up on the internet. There is a practical link, too. Some of those involved in recent European plots—and one of the suspects in the Charlie Hebdo attack—have been radicalised and trained in the Middle East, Afghanistan and Pakistan.”  Practical link?  No kidding! (more here)

We continue with this international charade in fighting an enemy whose name we cannot say, and whose assaults are treated as if they were disjointedly perpetrated by vicious groups of individuals motivated by “ideas they pick up on the internet.”  We continue to proclaim that we are doing battle with the tactic of terror instead of the strategists who launch such tactics.  And to make sure that everyone understands, we demonstrate on city streets in the millions against the tactic of terror, while showing ‘solidarity’ against what?  This dredges up the ridiculous picture of a similar demonstration not held by Parisians in September 1939 against the wanton use of blitzkrieg, while never once mentioning Hitler or Nazi Germany.

To add to the farce, Obama’s foreign policy midgets decided that America did not need to have anyone from its national leadership link arms with other such personages.  This oversight was so unseemly and sophomoric that the administration had to hurriedly issue a ‘My Bad’ statement admitting its screw-up.  To make amends our president promises to hold a conference where high level leaders will meet to affrim their policy of swatting mosquitoes without once considering to drain the swamp.

Comments

[Bill Tozer]

Dr. Rebane's made one comment on his excellent reason post I would have worded slightly differently.

. "They are claiming to be devout Muslims only because Islam provides a handy scripture that promotes and condones such attacks. All this terror is only intrinsic evil seeking an umbrella of twisted legitimacy."

I would have said "They are claiming to be devout Muslims only because Islam provides a Handbook that promotes, condones, requires, and instructs the followers of The Prophet to carry out such attacks." The rest of the post requires little feedback.

There are moderate people, no moderate Muslims. All faiths have backsliders and all Western civilizations have and tolerate (if not embrace) secular humanists. Islam does not tolerate nor embrace "Moderate Muslims", backsliders, humanistic thought, nor other religions or those that practice no religion. Western Civilization and Islam cannot co-exist in the same room or human body.

[Russ Steele]

Part of Andrew Bolt’s incisive column from Australia, a place where many but not all speak plainly about the threat of Islam:

“Our gutless surrender.” Remember that, please, the next time a Muslim goes on a shooting rampage at a U.S. military installation, killing thireen while shouting “Allabu Akbar.” Islamic terrorism or just, as the Obama administration insisted, mere “workplace violence”? Remember it the next time a Mullah in Tehran calls upon the faithful to murder a novelist because said Mullah decided that the book “insulted” Islam, Mohammed, or his aunt Nellie. Remember it the next time that a marathon race in Boston is bombed by young Muslims, or s subway in London is bombed by Muslims, or some coffee shop patrons in Sydney are killed, or some skyscrapers in New York are destroyed by Muslims. Islam is a religion of peace, President Bush said after 9/11. A United States consular facility in Benghazi is overrun by al Qaeda trained terrorists on September 11, 2012, four Ameircans, including our ambassador to Libya, were murdered. Response? United States says that regrettable event was a “spontaneous uprising” sparked by a sophomoric internet video making fun of Mohammed. We can’t even acknowledge what really happened. When Boko Haram jihadists kidnapped nearly 300 Nigerian schoolgirls, Bolt reminds us, “forcing them to convert to Islam and selling them to be raped, Islamist apologist and terrorism lecturer Waleed Aly refused even to acknowledge on Channel 10 that Boko Haram actually had an Islamist agenda, describing it merely as a group of vigilantes.”

We are led by gutless leaders, supported by a fawning and gutless media. Does anyone want to venture how well that is going to workout? What are these gutless leaders going to say when more Islamic work place violence takes place in a place most revered by Americans, will it be more gutless surrender?

[Wayne Hullett]

Excellent, well written post.

Why aren't the so-called moderate Muslims themselves rising up to stop the Jihadist, who ultimately endanger all of Islam?

[Bill Tozer]

Sadly we don't pay much attention of what is going on their turf. When it happens on our turf, it makes headlines.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks-2014.htm

[George Rebane]

BillT 151am - That list of Muslim massacres is a much needed reference to this discussion, thank you Mr Tozer. It absolutely boggles my mind to see how these attacks have continued worldwide over the years since 9/11. But what is totally incomprehensible to me is how the west's progressives receive (and hide) these reports, all the while attempting to divert attention by resuming the narrative that there are plenty of 'moderate Muslims' who are not (yet) murdering and maiming. These are the same useless idiots who accuse anyone pointing out Islam's common theme of dealing with infidels as being 'racist' or inciting Islamophobia.

Islamophobia is real and reminding people of it serves a practical purpose. If it isn't, then we could do away with Homeland Security and its many agencies devoting thousands of security forces to the task of intercepting these ragheads. The useless idiots want the protection, but don't want us to think about why and from what we are being protected beyond some vague notion of spontaneous, random, criminal terrorists.

[RL Crabb]

Please note that I included Boko Haram, who murdered two thousand people this week, in my new year's cartoon. I was chastised for leaving out climate change. You just can't please all the people, all the time.

[Bill Tozer]

Bad Crabb, bad. Be grateful your chastisement was not as severe as that dude in Saudia Arabia who insulted a mere Mullah. His sentence is 10 years in prison and 1,000 lashes. Well, nobody, but nobody can survive 1,000 lashes at one time. So every Friday the good fellow will get 20 lashes across his back and ankles, tearing apart his flesh. Just as he starts to heal up a wee bit, they will haul him out of the dungeon on the next Friday for 20 more. And so on and so on until be pays his debt in full to the Mullah. Then he will only have 9 more years in the Black Hole. Me thinks it would have been less painful for him have just insulted the Holy Warlord Child Predator Prophet and have his head roll around the floor and be done with it. Bad Muslim, bad.

My dear Dr. Rebane. The list I posted is just for the year 2014 only!! Many updates have been added since January 1st, 2015, but I digress. If you read every single atrocity by the Religion of Peace for just 2014, then you have way to much time on your hands or have the patience of Job, to coin a religious expression. And those murders on the seeming never list for 2014 are incomplete. That's only the ones reported or known about. A mass grave discovered is but one mere entry.

Looks like Western Europe sees the handwriting on the wall, to use another religious phrase. North America was represented in Paris by the President of Mexico and the Prime Minister of Canada. Somehow Eric Holder during his interview on CNN from France just could NOT bring himself to use the words Muslim and Terrorists in the same sentence. The USA opposes terrorism, but the Administration already banned the term Islamic Terrorist or Radial Muslim Terrorists or terrorist and Muslim in the same sentence years ago. We oppose terrorism, we oppose violence, and we oppose using the term islamic terrorists. Get it?
Don't think our President of these here United Nations would care for the noun "raghead". I know my sweet Brother Ben does not care for the term raghead either.

Shit, the ragheads even gunned down some Buddhists. All the Buddhists never invaded anything. It's on the Religion of Peace's 2014 Greatest Hits List.

[Don Bessee]

The next Charlie Hebdo cover has mohamed holding a sign that says "all is forgiven". If you are going to at them go big! VIVE Le Charlie Hebdo! I wonder how many of our networks and major print meida ,online news or blogs (that's you lefty jeffy) will reprint this? Gonna need an abacus to count the cowards on this one I am afraid.

[Todd Juvinall]

Don the networks won't even show the cover. They are cowering under their desks. Pelline would rather diss George Boardman than show the cover of Hebdo, he is also a coward undoubtedly.

[Walt]

Give it time. "O" and Co.,, and friends will endorse "no go zones" right here in the U.S.
That's the bleeding heart LIB way.

[George Rebane]

BillT 258pm - Mr Tozer, thanks for the heads up correction. So noted.

DonB 329pm - do you have a link to the cover pic?

[Teine Rebane Kenney]

I'm with Wayne Hullett. (Wayne! Hello!) The most powerful form of dissent would be from Muslim nations regularly and powerfully denouncing (with proof?) this form of Islam.

There, I dared post on my father's blog with all you smarty pants. Spell checked and re-read 3 times. Pulse is quickened.

[Todd Juvinall]

Good job. (no spell check)

[Don Bessee]

I have been emailing the pic out and its up on Breitbart now too!

[George Rebane]

OK, I think this is the new Charlie Hebdo cover that everyone is talking about. And I just saw that ToddJ also has it up on his blog. BTW, Fox News reported tonight that France's President Hollande has also now stated that the west is in a civilizational war with radical Islam.

[George Rebane]

Administrivia - I have deleted the entire JoeS thread starting with his gratuitous and off-topic attack the FUE and one of his readers. I did indeed miss this one but SteveF dropped by to chastise me for it (and also drop his signature opinions about me and RR). Not a good thread to divert us. Thank you Steve.

[Bill Tozer]

Why is showing a pic with the "edible marshmallow hat" raising any eyebrows. As the commentators have been saying the last few days, the NYT published a pic of the Jesus on crucifix in urine. They called it art. Don't recall any radical Catholics, crazy militant Evangelicals or even the people of my youth " The Holy Rollers" storming the NYT office and shooting up the editors. I could have missed that one.

Why are journalists, of all people, afraid of posting or publishing a simple cartoonist's rendering? Why the fear down to the very fiber of journalism? They say it is in the name of not offending a group, but the NYT and a host of media outlets never let that stop them before.

I submit that this fear and loathing of publishing just the cover of Charlie Hudbo's latest edition shows that Islam indeed is a religion of hate, intolerance, violence, and terror. No other way to look at it. One can offend Christians, human secularists, the left, the right, old people, teachers, policemen, but not Islam. Why is that if not fear of reptribution from the devote followers of The Religion of Peace?

Sure, some wacko shoot up an abortion clinic several years ago. But despite the fact than many many Christian and Jews consider abortion as clinical murder, the Christian community denounced such violence on the spot without hesitation while still opposing abortion. No one said the abortion doctor who was shot deserved it. No fear by the media nor the left nor statist journalism in general for grouping Christianity as abortion clinic bombers. See, they had no fear of deadly retribution. No brakes on the story out of disdain for offending people.

The two funniest things I have read lately both concern the ragheads. First, the French, Danish, American citizens that went off to fight for ISIS have become disillusioned with beheading children in front of their parents and raping women and shooting surrendered civilians in the head. They came to fight for the cause, not to do wanton bloodthirsty deeds. So, as they try to call it quits and go back home, ISIS ties them to the front of their tanks, lol. There is no going home alive. Hey, they are home, another lol.

The second thing is the ragheads (talking about the jihadists only, wherever they dwell) are now afraid of a backlash, lol. You can't make this stuff up. They are afraid of a backlash for killing unarmed civilians BY those they tried to kill in The Western World. ROTFLMAO. Reminds me of those PLO pussies that blew up the helicopter on the Tarmac carrying Jewish athletes at the 72 Munich games. The terrorists caught starting pissing their own pants, grabbed the feet of the German Swat team, and started crying like babies with big alligator tears and begging for mercy all the while kissing the German's boots. They were afraid of a backlash as well. Oh, this is too rich. No eye for an eye for those ragheads. What, is it not honorable to die for the cause, lol.

Yep, we mustn't offend on group of people. Just that one group of people. They be different, right? They be special, right?

[Account Deleted]

It gets better, Bill - It seems that when we all join hands and sing KoomByYa, certain folks just aren't loved as much as others.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-01-12/diplomatic-fallout-after-israels-netanyahu-participates-paris-memorial-march-disobey
We all want world peace, but not if it includes the Joos. Only the 'proper' type are welcome to be in a march of solidarity.
We'll all be able to get along when we get rid of the folks we don't want to get along with.

[Walt]

Look what our Muslim in Chief has been up to.
http://dailycaller.com/2015/01/13/white-house-obama-will-fight-media-to-stop-anti-jihad-articles/

Nope,, the press shall not speak ill of the radicals.

[Account Deleted]

Walt - the pres is thinking only of the safety of our troops. Remember in WWII we only said wonderful things about our enemies. We never demeaned or ridiculed them.
And we never bombed the cities of our enemies because that would have helped them recruit more soldiers. That's how we won WWII and that's how we will defeat the terrorists.

[George Rebane]

We live in insane times made more insane by an administration that has turned American values upside down. It used to be that the job of our armed forces was to put themselves at risk in order to defend our ability to exercise our rights. In Obama's America it is the citizens who have to forgo their rights so as to make military service more safe.

A correspondent sent me this piece on the 'Reflections on the Murders in Paris' that spells out what everyone knows, but what no one in Europe or even America can talk about "in polite society".
http://www.meforum.org/4970/reflections-on-the-murders-in-paris

And coincidentally, Flemming Rose, the Danish editor who caused world uproar by publishing a cartoon of Muhammad with a bomb in his turban, has just come out with his essay on free speech that reflects western civilization's experience with the rise of radical Islam. The name of the book is 'The Tyranny of Silence'
http://www.amazon.com/Tyranny-Silence-Flemming-Rose/dp/1939709423/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1421209519&sr=8-1&keywords=flemming+rose

[Bonnie McGuire]

Remember when the Communist Khrushchev was asked what religion he'd choose if he felt the need? He replied Islam. Was this because it's totalitarian? Is this part of the new global government, and why when those concerned about the atrocities being committed in Africa wanted the United Nations to investigate and stop it? After some delay the UN reported it was merely ethnic cleansing. Perhaps the Muslim terrorists are performing their duty to accomplish something we're not aware of, and that's why our leaders and the media aren't saying much. Is this why our southern border is a mockery of Homeland Security?

[Ben Emery]

Here is for everybody to lazy to look up what I keep mentioning of "chickens coming home to roost".

Muslim countries invaded and occupied by Westerners since 1798:

- what is now Bangladesh (Britain)
- Egypt (France)
- Indonesia (Dutch)
- Algeria (France)
- Senegal, Mali
- Niger, Chad (France)
- Moroccan Sahara
- Ceuta (Spain)
- what is now Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan (Russia)
- Tunisia (France)
- Egypt, Sudan (Britain)
- Morocco (France)
- Libya (Italy)
- Palestine and Iraq (Britain)
- Syria and what is now Lebanon (France)
- Kuwait, UAE, Bahrain (Britain)
- Iran (Britain, US, Soviet Union during WW II)
- Iraq (US 2003-2011)

Two points to think about;

1) the legal Muslim residents in Europe are able to live there do to their native country being controlled by one of these European parent nations.

2) Since the industrial revolution we in the west have been encroaching on Muslim regions and stealing resources found either on the land or under it.

Final Question: What would the United States of America do if we were invaded/ occupied, government controlled, and resources stolen by foreign powers?

[Todd Juvinall]

So Ben Emery, what do you propose as the solution? You certainly are able to find your desire of outrage. What do you think should take place?

[Ben Emery]

Todd,
As I have written here many times before. For a fraction of the cost and good will building the US and Western nations should have a Marshal Plan for all the nations we have invaded/ occupied and taken the resources of to allow us to live a high standard of living. Help fund and build infrastructure for the people of these nations hospitals, water treatment, schools, roads, ect.... Have the people of the nation build them so it is theirs to keep or lose, they will be invested with their time, energy, and most importantly the direction of their own futures.

[Todd Juvinall]

What level of taxation do you propose?

[Ben Emery]

Todd,

I am assuming you are talking about western powers raising revenue. As I said, it is a fraction of the cost of war and military actions. If we have money to bomb, destroy cities, and kill people that money would be used to help people instead. No need to raise or make any additional taxes to fund it.

George has made the comment we first have to annihilate the nations or "terror", in the modern case, into submission before such a plan could be initiated. Why? Make an international treaty and shift warfare into humanity. I know the result couldn't be any worse and luckily it will cost less in both money and in American military lives.

[Bill Tozer]

There are many reasons to hate France, but what the French Prez said is not one of them. He declared war on radical Islamist extremist jihadist murdering SOBs.

Finally. No wonder Hillary declared France was our closest alley before she bonked her aging melon and came down with althimers.
Declaring war on the ragheads does not mean little drone strikes. France yesterday doubled its airstrikes on ISIS. US Grant won the war between the states by pounding, pounding, pounding the rebels into submission. Burned all their fields, slaughtered all the livestock, touched the plantations as Sherman marched to the sea and Grant took Richmond. Many civilians who stood in their way got bowled over.

When the allies fought Nazi Germany, we firebombed Dresden 24/7 and wiped out 125,000 civilians, most of them the elderly, women and children. It was a declared war and Dresden happened to stand in our way to Berlin.
When we declared war on Japan, we dropped the big one on them. They did not surrender ASAP, so we dropped another. That ended the war, just as the War in the European theater ended and the War between the States ended. Brute force, with grieving crying widows screaming into the night. No pussyfooting around on these murderers who declared war on us.

These are not a few misguided individuals committing workplace violence. These are sleeper cells that are following the Al Quada handbook and have been called out to wreck carnage. Kill them. No more no go zones. Flood them with everything we got and bomb their funeral processions. That is how you treat fire with greater fire. Let the grieving widows wail into the night. If it is war you want, it is war you will get.
Good thing France is taking to them on their turf. That is good because nobody has found out how many French Generals it takes to defend Paris, yet.

[drivebyposter]

"As I have written here many times before. For a fraction of the cost and good will building the US and Western nations should have a Marshal Plan for all the nations we have invaded..."

While it would be fun to sit Mr. Emery down without a computer and have him list everything he knows about the Marshall Plan, I can't say that it's uncommon in most people to just throw out memes like that. That's why God invented taverns.

Here's a not-bad way of looking at it. I just looked up the Marshall Plan specifics, and it appears that $160B in present $USD was spent. 1/4 of it was for England with roughly twice the population of present day Afghanistan.

A quick reference:

http://assets.nationaljournal.com/pdf/SPRT%20112-21.pdf

and check out page 34. (the whole thing is worth a quick scan, actually).

You know, sometimes the patient actually has to want to get well.

[Ben Emery]

We have spent in the trillions since 2001 on this "war on terror" so $500 billion would be a steal with friends in the end not more enemies than when we started along with a perpetual war.

[Ben Emery]

Bill,
You got it correct, these are sleeper cells of a few dozen people in 2001 and now in the thousands. So why are we using state warfare strategy and tactics to fight small groups spread around the planet. Since 2003/ 2004 "terrorism" has skyrocketed, which tells us we are going about it the wrong way. But we continue chugging along killing/ destroying more people, cultures, and cities creating even more hatred and those who would like to do our government/ business policies harm. It is not our freedom they hate it is our suppression/ oppression of their freedoms through our governmental, military, and business policies.
http://www.start.umd.edu/research-projects/global-terrorism-database-gtd

Things that create terrorism

- Offensive invasions
- Killing of innocent civilians, which bombs do and ill informed soldiers
- Torture
- Drone warfare
- Indiscriminate round ups and unjustified detention
- Occupations and everything that comes along with Marshal Law

To name a few.

[drivebyposter]

Martial law
Marshal Dillon
Marshall Plan

[Don Bessee]

Ben Emery needs to take a look at how many billions we spent in Iraq and Afghanistan on infrastructure, education and health. In Afghanistan as soon as the school is finished and ready for use they are blown up, sometimes if its a girls school they take out the kids too. How many locals siphon off the money on the way to its intended target. How many times are roads rebuilt after they are bombed or power poles? Throwing money at nation building only works if there is some kind of societal structure to administer the programs and tribal based societies have an abysmal track record in this area. Your .edu reference cracks me up, we don't need a cloistered academic to tell us what the issues are, just read what the opposition says. Its all out there on the web and in print and on their tv shows. This is very much like the Nazis and mein kamph (sp?) where they told us exactly what they had in mind and the liberals ala chamberilin convinced themselves that they did not mean what they said. Ask the jews how that worked out. That's how it works when you ignore your enemies stated goals and a pattern of threats that they act on. Face it, this is war.

[Michael R. Kesti]

drivebyposter 14Jan15 02:30 PM

I wonder if you would post something as stupidly meaningless if you had the courage to sign your name to your useless contribution.

[fish]

Posted by: Michael R. Kesti | 14 January 2015 at 02:48 PM

Correcting Ben on grammatical errors that he has made before.....how is that "stupidly meaningless?

[Walt]

One thing is for sure,, a couple of enemy sympathizers are among us.

[drivebyposter]

"Correcting Ben on grammatical errors that he has made before.....how is that "stupidly meaningless? "

Exactly, I was just trying to do it in a reasonably kindly fashion.

The point still holds, that a 'Marshall Plan' sized amount of money has been spent in quite a few Middle Eastern countries already. There appears to be a deeper logic to determining whether money actually sticks in a useful fashion. Using lumps of imported money to actually build economies from near-scratch strikes me as a singularly difficult feat.

[George Rebane]

I wonder how many iterations of invasions and colonizations we have to go back to arrive at the legitimate 'original' inhabitants and/or owners of a piece of turf on this planet. Making a list of just the last go around seems a bit incomplete to use as an argument to place blame and justify retributions. Why go back two such cycles when one will do quite nicely? If someone attacks us NOW, then it seems that we get to counter-attack them NOW without going into the kindergarten round of, 'but you hit me first!'

[Walt]

Well Driveby,, Ben has slithered away from a question put forth a long time ago..(then ask repeatedly) " Just who have we conquered?" That entails keeping that foreign soil as our own. Nope,, we haven't done that. But he LOVES to make conflicts into things they never were. He is of the gang that loved to yell " no war for oil". ( well where was that "free oil"? Not one drop in repayment. Not even for the liberation of Kuwait )

There will ALWAYS be bad guys in the world out to do harm. Yet the likes of Ben don't want to do anything about them.
Never mind these same goons would skin him alive if given the chance just because he's an American. ( nope,, they don't like our freedoms one bit) It our way of life they hate.
Don't even try and talk women's rights to those people Women are property.

France now has more on the ball than we do, and won't put up with it any longer. No more PC crap for them. Some want the guillotine back in the pubic square, and are ready to bring the next Muslim terrorist for a good break in run. " You want to cut off head? well we will start with yours!".

[Michael R. Kesti]

fish 14Jan15 03:05 PM

Oops. I hadn't caught that Ben's error was being demonstrated and thought there was another intent. Mea culpa, but it might not have happened if the referenced comment had been identified as our host has requested.

[Bill Tozer]

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/robert-spencer/britain-muslim-rape-gangs-run-wild/

Hey Ben, Love Not Hate, right?

[Todd Juvinall]

I honestly think Ben Emery has a screw loose. My goodness, he would be speaking German if it were not for our fathers and grandfathers. Maybe he would be one of those prison guards? America has given away trillions in Foreign Aid and that money went to most all the countries of the planet. Bush signed up America for 18 billion to fight AIDS in Africa and that is still ongoing. Seems Ben Emery just has a blank spot inside his noggin to accept the help and kindness of his own country. I am ashamed there are people like him here.

[Bill Tozer]

Hey, nothing to see here, more on. Them socialists countries in Northern Europe that the lefties love look more like the Marxists everyday. Statism rules. As of Jan. 1, 2015, it is against the law to critize the Swedish government's immigration policy. Meanwhile, rapes of Whirte women in Sweden have shot up 9 fold with the majority of rapes by some Arab immigrants. All countries have Arab immigrants, but the Christian Arabs are causing no problems. Hmmm, very interesting. Do ya think it is the Muslim Arabs that are raping and robbing and murdering in Sweden? I know, this one is a tough question. Who has caused the 9 fold increase in rapes in Sweden? The Christian Arab immigrants or the Muslim Arab immigrants. Who beats cops walking down the street? No, this is not a trick question....or is it?
Don't ya just love the Socialist's version of freedom of speech?
http://topconservativenews.com/2014/05/swedish-politician-convicted-of-a-crime-for-posting-statistics-about-rape-on-facebook/

[Walt]

Ben also refuses to acknowledge that after ALL the wars, this evil empire spent plenty to help rebuild ALL those nations, then handed those lands back to the people. Lat I checked, that's not what a concurring nation does. BTW Ben,, just what resources did we "plunder"?
( as you like to put it) Did we ship back ship loads of sand from Iraq? Did we clean out Baghdad of all the rugs? I do recall hearing about shipping plenty of goats over there, and we even sent goat experts to teach them how to take care of them. ( like they didn't know already?)

[Todd Juvinall]

Ben Emery hates himself and by extension, the country.

[Don Bessee]

Check out www.thankyourcops.com Sunday 12 to 3.

[Joe Koyote]

" he would be speaking German if it were not for our fathers and grandfathers." --Probably not.. By the time D-day happened Germany was already defeated. D-day just put the last nail in the coffin. Hitler was about as stupid of a general as there ever was. He apparently didn't learn from Napoleon's similar error a century and a half earlier. You can't defeat Russia in the winter and like Napoleon, Hitler destroyed his army trying. More Russians were killed during the siege of Stalingrad (418,000) than Americans throughout the entire war. Fourteen million Russian soldiers died in the war compared to 407,000 Americans. This does not count civilian casualties. The western allies would have been happy to just let the Russians take the entire brunt of the war, except they were afraid that the Soviets would fill the vacuum left by the defeat of Germany and take over all of Europe, so the race to Berlin was on.

[Gregory]

Hitler was seen as brilliant at the beginning of the war even by his generals. Stupidity wasn't his problem, rather, insanity, megalomania, paranoia... all of which may have been a result of advanced syphilis.

Stalin was in cahoots with Hitler at the beginning of the war and, all told over his time in power, managed to kill about 20 million of his own people in addition to the 20 million soldiers and civilians the USSR lost during WWII.

Without the Molotov–Ribbentrop pact, there might not even have been a WWII.

[Todd Juvinall]

JoeK, if Hitler had been woken up on the morning of D-Day and directed the Panzer division, 13 or 15 to race to Normandy then D-Day was likely a failure. If you would read a bit more about the day you would know that. Also, American soldiers during the Battle of the Bulge suffered 100,000 causalities and about 20k dead. So your just way odd in your opinion.

Hitler was also close to getting the A0bomb thru heavy water. What do you think he would have used it on?

[drivebyposter]

"You can't defeat Russia in the winter "

You can certainly defeat them in a series of campaigns. The Germans had just accomplished it 25 years prior and were no doubt hoping for a political collapse in the Soviet Union. It was a reasonable bet for a major league risk taker.

Dunno about a Normandy failure with some better direction. Allied air superiority was massive for one thing. Just look at the amount of trouble Das Reich had in getting to the scene. It's a bit of Monday morning quarterbacking that would take a stupendous amount of analysis to have a good opinion on.

I'll have to bow out on this one. WWII and it's precursor events are so complicated that no one can say anything meaningful in a sentence or three.

[Walt]

LIBS love to point to statistics of "innocent" children being killed in the battles.
Care to take a peek at the right of passage?

http://video.foxnews.com/v/3987315126001/new-isis-video-shows-young-boy-executing-prisoners/?intcmp=obnetwork#sp=show-clips

These children shoot at our troops as soon as they can hold a gun, yet are considered "innocent casualties" in the press.

[Joe Koyote]

Todd 11:28 -- "What ifs" don't count much in history because they didn't happen and are therefore irrelevant. What if Wall Street hadn't backed Hitler in the first place.. there probably would have been no war. Your battle of the bulge comparison is hardly relevant to Stalingrad where non-civilian deaths were 20 times greater.

[Walt]

Now there is a stretch. Hitler was a power hungry SOB, and was pissed about the loss of the first world war, not to mention an ethnic cleanser. He wanted to rule the world.
Read a history book JoeK. Hope you have blond hair and blue eyes. If not, you wouldn't make the cut.(in his book)
It's pretty obvious you know vary little on the subject.

[Bill Tozer]

Well, history is indeed interesting. Now, for a brief look at what is going on now in Europe:

http://mrconservative.com/2013/03/6673-ten-horrifying-stories-of-muslims-gang-raping-white-woman/

[Joe Koyote]

What is your point Walt, other than bashing the messenger who pointed out that Russia paid a higher price in human misery and death during WWII than did America. That is the history Walt, like it or not. Perhaps you ought to return to the 4th grade where you apparently left off.

[Walt]

So what? Russians shot their own soldiers. Did that tally get added to your body count?
"4th grade"?? Really? At least I went to school. You were too busy chasing birds on a lonely highway, and it still got the better of ya'.

[Gregory]

JoKe, when a partnership of Mafiosi goes bad with one turning on the others, the one that goes running to the police for help doesn't turn into a good guy complete with white hat. That's the USSR in WWII after they get attacked by their former partner in crimes against humanity.

For example, there's the slaughter of 22,000 Polish officers in 1940 that took the USSR a half century to admit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

Stalin killed 20 million of his own people directly over his 30 years in power, and was ostensibly responsible for the additional 20 million of his people who perished in WWII. Hitler could only dream of the power held by Stalin.

[Don Bessee]

Just caught my breath and wiped the tears away after laughing so hard at the video of our secretary of state and james taylors pathetic show in paris. The flopping microphone was priceless. I am sure iran is shanking in their boots at the prospect of our tough negotiator kerry and the nuke negotiations to come. Will he bring taylor with him to play kumbya? Yes I am sure between this and the prez lecturing Europe to not use a hammer to solve their muslim problems that iran and isis were laughing just has hard. In case we did not know it America has done a great job of assimilating our muslims and the prez thinks europe should learn from us!?!?

[drivebyposter]

"...the messenger who pointed out that Russia paid a higher price in human misery and death during WWII than did America"

Yeah, so?

There must be some greater point being made here aside from belaboring the obvious, but for the life of me I can't ferret it out.

The best I can do is something like:

Nazis are evil->German government was Nazi->IBM sold gear to German Government->Ronald Reagan did magazine ad for IBM->Reagan = Nazi

I think it would be more interesting to hear about the lesser known events. The attempts by Poland to cleave off a piece of Germany prior to WWII, or the Polish invasion of Russia. There's no modern analogy that comes to mind, but the corner cases have the charm of being novel.

[George Rebane]

drivebyposter 246pm - On your inference of Reagan being a Nazi, could you please cite some reference that grounded you in logic? And some historical references to Poland's inter-bellum aggressions would also be of help.

[drivebyposter]

The Reagan reference is a joke. You can always connect a modern Republican to Hitler somehow, it's a kind of party game with Team Blue State.

Lemme look through my library for a good reference to post WWI Poland. That country was always a sort of on-again, off-again kind of affair. They were also aggressive enough in that period that the Sicherheitsdienst (SD) false flag operation in 1939 (Project Hindenberg maybe? my memory fails me) may well have had more legs than you might imagine. Propaganda effects would be hard to measure, so I'm just guessing really.

FWIW, there's a not bad Wikipedia entry on the Polish-Soviet War. I've never run into a book on the subject, but given the huge amount written about the era, there may well be one.

[Walt]

I am still looking for the latest on that Nazi underground nuke complex that was recently "rediscovered". ( I posted the story a few weeks ago) It may shed some light on just how close Hitler was to making a nuke. The way JoeK talks, you would think he wish he had.

On the home front, "O" is now protecting a traitor. Yup, that Bergdaul deserter.
The W.H. won't let the Pentagon release it's findings, yet word has leaked out that they "must go easy" on the somebitch. Recall "O" with his parents at the W.H. press conference?
Just a little more proof that "O" is on the side of our enemies.
Only in today's day and age can a LIB President be allowed to be an enemy sympathizer... And get away with it.

[Joe Koyote]

You people really know how to go off on nothing. Probably because in your twisted worldview, you see me as the enemy because I don't agree with your politics. This whole Russia thing started because Todd made a statement that without America's war effort, we would all be speaking German, while trying to refute something Ben Emery said and I brought up the fact that Russia lost way more lives than did the US, and then you all go nuts with obscure posts that were not relevant to that conversation.

[Joe Koyote]

Have a nice day!

[Todd Juvinall]

JoeK, you have totally misunderstood what you alleged and what we said in response. I think you are misguided and historically challenged. We are simply trying to get you straight on history. Ignorance of history as you have shown is why we keep repeating the same mistakes on the planet.

[Larry Wirth]

JoKe, you are quite correct in re: Russian lives lost in combat during WWII. Their tactics didn't help much.

But please also admit that without US Lend-Lease shipments of trucks, planes, ammo, etc. the USSR would not have survived to reap the victories of 1944-45.

[Gregory]

JoKe, your view of WWII and Russian casualties ignores the fact the Soviets (or at least their leadership) were co-conspirators, not innocent victims.

[George Rebane]

All should remember that progressive history and historians have always painted the role of their USSR comrades in WW2 in much more favorable hues than facts on the ground warranted. As an historical milestone we hearken back to the launch of Operation Barbarossa in June 1941 when America's communists and fellow leftists switched overnight from being rabid promoters of 'America First' isolationists to being even more fervent promoters of the US declaring war on Germany. None of this has been taught in our government schools.

[Bill Tozer]

Reflections of Islam: The Progressive Politically Correct Way

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/396474/conversation-obama-doesnt-want-have-jonah-goldberg

[George Rebane]

The discussion of the west's response to Islam and Islamists continues in 'Things are getting "curiouser and curiouser"'
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2015/01/things-are-getting-curiouser-and-curiouser.html