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02 March 2015


Mary Ann

The problem I have is that we have lots of illegal residents who are currently in the US Military, so are you going to exclude them too?

Are you going to change the constitution too? There are more than 5,000 additional residents who are added every year by women who walk across the Canadian and Mexican borders to have their children here....

"Every year, 300,000 to 400,000 children are born to illegal immigrants in the United States. Despite the foreign citizenship and illegal status of the parent, the executive branch of the U.S. government automatically recognizes these children as U.S. citizens upon birth. The same is true of children born to tourists and other aliens who are present in the United States in a legal but temporary status. Since large-scale tourism and mass illegal immigration are relatively recent phenomena, it is unclear for how long the U.S. government has followed this practice of automatic “birthright citizenship” without regard to the duration or legality of the mother’s presence."


Maybe while you're re-writing the constitution we can visit the gun issue to have that make sense too? LOL!!!


Posted by: Mary Ann | 02 March 2015 at 12:24 PM

Wow.....you're like some weird jeffy+Michael Anderson test tube love child.

You're point though is valid.....nothing is going to prevent the admission of more "Democrats in Waiting" for Team Evil and more warm bodies for business (TEAM STUPID) to sell things to.

George Rebane

MaryA 1224pm - No change to the Constitution is needed or contemplated by the above policy. But it does recognize that what you imply as being our inevitable and ad nauseum future, that will come to an end. Things that cannot go on forever, will not go on forever.

However, you seem to have an alternative approach; please share it with us.


So blatant even Phyllis Schafly gets it (I kid she's no dummy)


Ben Emery

Why create more laws to pile onto existing laws that aren't enforced already?

If we enforce existing laws on illegal hiring practices and the problem goes away.

To go after the millions of people hiding rather than a few hundred maybe thousands who hire huge numbers of powerless undocumented workers doesn't make sense. The problem is those few hundred and maybe thousands invest, lobby junkets, cronyism with politician loved ones (look at Doolittle and Abramoff), ect.... control the two parties who control the law makers and the executive branch who set the policy on such issues.

Very easy way to check someones work status in the US, E-Verify, make it mandatory for all employers so the excuse "we didn't know" cannot be used.

Ben Emery

And Yes, I feel the same way towards new gun restriction laws. What I advocate is a national debate on the actual language/ meaning of the 2nd amendment and then work from there forward in shaping actual functional and Constitutional gun legislation.

Mary Ann

The thing I'm trying to understand is how do these illegals get allowed to vote? If you register to vote the elections office checks into so many different records to make sure that you have a lawful valid right to vote.

It's almost stupid to say that illegals will be allowed to vote, as they could never get past the first step and be allowed to register, let alone vote......

I trying to remember if a number of years ago that New York state spent a huge amount trying to find illegal voters and I thought they found 1 in 30+ million?

"The Fifteenth Amendment (Amendment XV) to the United States Constitution prohibits the federal and state governments from denying a citizen the right to vote based on that citizen's "race, color, or previous condition of servitude." It was ratified on February 3, 1870, as the third and last of the Reconstruction Amendments.

In the final years of the American Civil War and the Reconstruction Era that followed, Congress repeatedly debated the rights of the millions of black former slaves. By 1869, amendments had been passed to abolish slavery and provide citizenship and equal protection under the laws, but the election of Ulysses S. Grant to the presidency in 1868 convinced a majority of Republicans that protecting the franchise of black voters was important for the party's future. After rejecting more sweeping versions of a suffrage amendment, Congress proposed a compromise amendment banning franchise restrictions on the basis of race, color, or previous servitude on February 26, 1869. The amendment survived a difficult ratification fight and was adopted on March 30, 1870.

United States Supreme Court decisions in the late nineteenth century interpreted the amendment narrowly. From 1890 to 1910, most black voters in the South were effectively disenfranchised by new state constitutions and state laws incorporating such obstacles as poll taxes and discriminatory literacy tests, from which white voters were exempted by grandfather clauses. A system of whites-only primaries and violent intimidation by white groups also suppressed black participation.

In the twentieth century, the Court began to interpret the amendment more broadly, striking down grandfather clauses in Guinn v. United States (1915) and dismantling the white primary system in the "Texas primary cases" (1927–1953). Along with later measures such as the Twenty-fourth Amendment, which forbade poll taxes in federal elections, and Harper v. Virginia State Board of Elections (1966), which forbade poll taxes in state elections, these decisions significantly increased black participation in the American political system. To enforce the amendment, Congress enacted the Voting Rights Act of 1965, which provided federal oversight of elections in discriminatory jurisdictions, banned literacy tests and similar discriminatory devices, and created legal remedies for people affected by voting discrimination."


The thing I'm trying to understand is how do these illegals get allowed to vote? If you register to vote the elections office checks into so many different records to make sure that you have a lawful valid right to vote.

It's adorable that you believe that!

Todd Juvinall

Mary Ann 4:09 PM says,
"The thing I'm trying to understand is how do these illegals get allowed to vote? If you register to vote the elections office checks into so many different records to make sure that you have a lawful valid right to vote."

No they don't and all you need to do to prove me right is travel there and ask. Where in the heck did you get that info?

George Rebane

MaryAnn 409pm - I'm not sure you understand what I have proposed in my post. The illegal alien problem has focused on the 11M+ who are already living among us. Since no one is seriously proposing to round them up and deport them, the problem has been what kind of new law can we pass that 1) doesn't provide them amnesty for having broken our immigration laws, 2) allows them to immediately come out of the shadows as legal residents to live and work here in perpetuum, and 3) and deny them the ability to become citizens, thereby providing appropriate punishment for being an illegal entrant and removing the charge that their rapid legalization would provide Democrats with millions of new voters.

Have no idea where you got off on the tangent about illegals voting. Also, there should be no constitutional issue raised here because we are essentially pardoning criminals through new legislation, which Congress has the power to do. But I hope this helps.

BenE 402pm - You are not addressing the illegal alien problem that the rest of the country is concerned about. It seems that you are happy to leave them all in limbo, or have them deported in piecemeal, or ... . I have suggested new legislation to address the problem of illegal aliens with citizen children living among us. What's your solution?


Hay Ben... With all the mandatory checks and rechecks, background checks, how do guns keep winding up in the hands of criminals? Read the paper lately? Felons fresh out of the slammer get caught again with guns.
And this crap about banning rifle ammo because they "can go through" cops body armor is another line of BS to the layman. ALL "rifle" ammo (except for .22 in most cases) can do that. The everyday vests law enforcement wear are hand gun rated.

Ben Emery

Are you advocating for more gun laws? If not, we are in agreement for the most part.

Laws are not for criminals that is why I don't really support putting more and more laws into effect. I have argued this in NC city council for their anti loitering a.k.a. illegal to be homeless ordinances. It eventually becomes selective enforcement for law enforcement and I think we are practically there already. A police officer can stop a person for just about any reason these days and if you don't comply then you will be intimidated, brutalized, or arrested for obstructing an officer.

Just look at the Stop and Frisk laws George supports so much.

Cops expose NYPD's Stop and Frisk Program

Bill  Tozer

I agree with Ben Envy...partially! Been awhile. Enforce the laws on the books first and foremost. Let the chips fall where they may. Secure the border and many future problems will disappear.

Ben, do you realize E-Verify is not perfect and has flaws. Glitches in the software coupled with the fact that our current administration does not want illegals verified for employment. Not really. There seem to be delays in verification, mistakes, misinformation, disinformation, and downright sandbagging by our Great Fathers in Washington.
The Matrix is not perfect and I almost smell a conspicarcy. Almost. I do indeed smell a rat.

What puzzles me, Brother Ben, is that you are so quick to sing the praises of E-Verify and trust its instant verification without question, yet you are so opposed to Voter ID which has less flaws. I will survive if I can't make it to the polling booth, but I can't survive for long without a job. Welfare and food stamps are not an option, never have, never will for me.
Build the Wall and hang anyone that hires an illegal alien in the town square, coupled with a good orderly FAIR and JUST process, such as those that took cuts are sent to the back of the line. Just like what they used to teach in school.

Bill  Tozer

Bigum hugs to all.



Ben Emery

There is no perfect system that a human being has ever created. I know just about every other industrialized nation controls immigration through controlling employer hiring. My wife had to turn in her passport at the police station in Switzerland and had to prove she had gameful employment. The main immigration problem in Europe is the colonization of the 19th Century and early 20th Century is coming back to haunt them as Climate Change is altering the continent of Africa creating huge migration issues.

Russ Steele


Can you support your claim "Climate Change is altering the continent of Africa" without resorting to the a paper based on the IPCC climate models? Global temperature increases have paused for over 18 years. How is Africa been altered over the last 18 years with a stable temperature?

Who or what do you think is responsible for this pause in climate change, as CO2 emission continue to increase? It appears that increased level os CO2 have had a positive impact on Africa. Here is one example:

The Sahara is actually shrinking, with vegetation arising on land where there was
nothing but sand and rocks before.The southern border of the Sahara has
been retreating since the early 1980s, making farming viable again in what
were some of the most arid parts of Africa. There has been a spectacular
regeneration of vegetation in northern Burkina Faso, which was devastated
by drought and advancing deserts 20 years ago. It is now growing so much
greener that families who fled to wetter coastal regions are starting to come
back. There are now more trees, more grassland for livestock and a 70%
increase in yields of local cereals such sorghum and millet in recent years.
Vegetation has also increased significantly in the past 15 years in southern
Mauritania, north-western Niger, central Chad, much of Sudan and parts of
Eritrea. In Burkina Faso and Mali, production of millet rose by 55 percent and
35 percent, respectively, since 1980. Satellite photos, taken between 1982
and 2002, revealed the extensive re-greening throughout the Sahel.
Aerial photographs and interviews with local people have confirmed the increase in

Why would people be migrating from Africa when it turing green from climate change?

Ben Emery


Here is a pdf excerpt

"forced migration: Weather extremes, shifts in climate
and the degradation of ecosystems threaten livelihoods
and erode human security, causing forced migration
and population displacement. Already, droughts and
the drying of river basins in southern and eastern Africa
as well as floods and rising sea levels in western Africa
have induced migration of individuals and communities
in search of alternative livelihoods. Examples of climate
change-related migration in Africa include: the continu-
ous movement of pastoralist communities of northern
Kenya ravaged by both droughts and floods; rural-ur-
ban migration in Ethiopia due to adverse environmental
changes in its highlands; and internal displacement of
population in the low-lying and flood-prone plains of
the river Niger in Nigeria. These migrants and refugees
represent a major policy challenge for African govern-
ments in terms of humanitarian assistance and sustain-
able long-term solutions, in addition to national security
concerns linked to competition for scarce resources be-
tween migrants and local populations.
Conflict: Climate change may seriously threaten politi-
cal and economic stability, as, for example, when com-
munities and nations struggle to access scarce water
resources or when forced migration puts previously
separate groups into conflict over the same resources.
Given the history of ethnic, resource and political con-
flicts in Africa, climate change could aggravate territorial
and border disputes and complicate conflict resolution
and mediation processes. Conflict zones and potential
flashpoints in Africa, such as Darfur, the Sahel, the Horn
of Africa, the DRC and northern Kenya, all have popu-
lations living in fragile and unstable conditions making
them vulnerable to climate change’s effects and the risk
of violent conflict. Declining water resources and dimin-
ishing arable land are already intensifying competition
for those resources, and creating tensions for displaced
populations or those moving in search of improved live-
lihoods. Armed conflict and intensified national security
concerns minimize capacity to cope with climate change."



Africa's problem in a nutshell.



Global warming would be the least of their issues.

As it's probably too late, hopefully someone is doing large scale saving of seeds, genetic material and the like as the extinction event should be pretty remarkable. Bill Gates would be doing more good in the long run by concentrating on that kind of thing.

Ben Emery

The exploitation of Africa natural resources and the European colonization of the continent has been the biggest driving factor in the strife, up until now. The factors of Climate Change are only exacerbate the preexisting issues. It is the colonization of the continent that is causing the legal migration to European parent nations. The same is true with middle eastern nations along with India and the UK.

George Rebane

Administrivia - For those with short-term memory problems I remind that the topic of this post is immigration policy as it applies to resident illegal aliens. Please take your climate concerns to the nearest Sandbox. Many thanks.


.....and right on cue. Orange Julius bends over and grabs his ankles!


Ben Emery

Sorry George,
But to try and disconnect issues is a mistake but I understand for logistic and practical purposes on a blog it makes sense.

Why do want to add more laws on top laws that aren't enforced already? The real question is- why aren't the laws on the books enforced now?

Answer- those who benefit from illegal workforce are large investors in both the R's and D's, quid pro quo.

That is the problem as is every major problem we face in today's America.

Account Deleted

"The real question is- why aren't the laws on the books enforced now?"
Ben and I agree! We can start with the govt. The feds go after Arizona for trying to help enforce existing fed immigration law, while cities and states that openly defy fed law are patted on the head.
Of course, the supreme law is the Constitution. Enforcing it would be refreshing. But that's another topic.

Bill  Tozer

Ben Envy, another reason is that some misguided adorable souls worry about liitle Pedro's feeling when he looks up at The Wall we wall builders erected with that mean o' sign that reads in English and Espanol "Alto. Keep Out". How can WE be so cruel. "They are our brothers, our uncles, our neighbors, our friends", thus sayeth the Boyz in the penitentiary.
"Have we no heart? Is this what our country stands for? Mr. Obama, tear down this wall", thus sayeth Brother Ben and his band of merriment makers.

Ben Emery

What does a wall have to do with enforcing existing laws? My major problem is everything is focused on the immigrant at this point not the reason they are migrating. I say focus on the cause of the problem not the symptom if we want true lasting results.

NAFTA, CAFTA, Panama, Columbia, Costa Rica, Chile, Peru, and our free trade agreements with our Americas neighbors is directly linked to the influx of immigration over the last 20 years. Our heavily subsidized agribusinesses are undercutting many of the farmers in these countries creating a multiplier effect of those who can no longer afford to live in their home countries.

George Rebane

BenE 911am - I'm all for enforcing existing laws had that been a consistent policy over the last decades, but it wasn't. Now illegal aliens live among is in the millions. Most Americans (me included) see neither the feasibility nor acceptability of launching massive nationwide manhunts to round up illegal aliens and deport them. That is why a broad range of alternatives have been proposed for the resolution of the matter, and that is why I have offered my own unique proposal.

In the above, you have sidestepped the natural consequences of just enforcing existing immigration law. If you continue to do so, you are literally taking yourself out of the debate, having contributed no more than an old rusty sign swinging in the wind. You are capable of better.

On the matter of government subsidies of industry we agree. However, you and yours seem to run into a problem when comparing unsubsidized production of ag products with unsubsidized production of manufactured products for American consumers. You are all for free markets and trade in ag products, but not so for manufactured products - both equally affect consumer prices and labor opportunities here and abroad.

Brad C.

I never liked the idea that a foreign woman could swim across the Rio Grande and give birth to an American.
That said, what to do about an American father whose wife is a foreign national who is illegal and gives birth in the US?

George Rebane

BradC 932am - current immigration law and the above Rebane doctrine appropriately address that case.

Bill  Tozer

Ben Envy. You must be getting short timers. You wailed against building the Wall and some kid feeling bad looking at the other side of the wall. Remember? Remember your long essays about Wall Builders? Hmmm. Heck, it was probably just 3 months ago. I have not read one of your posts in its entirety since.
Existing law calls for building the fence. I would prefer an electric fence after hordes of illegals have left piles of plastic bottles and plastic bags strewn about our friggin protected wetlands, a federal offense with harsh penalties for committing such a felony. Drug trafficking is a felony. Human trafficking is a felony. Trashing our protected wetlands carries severe penalties.
Think of all the bloated carcasses of dead birds as direct result of them friggin law breakers. They trash our protected wetlands.
You should be outraged by the heaps of plastic trash these felons leave in their wake, killing our fish as well. Add felonies to their misdemeanors. Remember your essay you posted just last week about dead fish and fowl caused by plastic and plastic water bottles????????????
Paper or plastic? Ignorance of OUR LAWS already written is no excuse. A wall or electrified fence would save our fish and fowl. Paper or plastic? How about handcuffs and a bared cage instead. That is a solution. A real partial solution until we stop giving foreign aid to corrupt governments. Ecuador does just fine without one penny from us. We don't need to do a jobs program for the globe. We need to control our borders like any Soverign nation on the planet has the right to. And Congress wrote the fence building law and a sitting President of the United States of America signed it into law a few moons ago. The Wall has EVERYTHING to do with following existing law, dumbshat.

Ben Emery

We can spin our wheels all day about the laws not being enforced is a non starter for real reform. Those unenforced laws are the symptom of the issue not the issue.

Why are those laws not enforced?

Why instead do we go after those workers not employers when the laws are against the employers?

For the same reason white collar crime goes basically untouched while street crime is way disproportionately focused on in our society, those with money are harder to convict and possibly have enough power for revenge.

I don't mind subsides for industry if those subsides are paid for with selective import tariffs or taxes of the industry not the citizens tax dollars. Carbon tax cover the billions of dollars of subsides handed out annually to the fossil fuel industry. Let the industry pay for its own subsides as it did for 200 years before Reagan Revolution started the process of changing that policy. US manufacturing has lost over 50,000 factories and 8,000,000 jobs in the last dozen years or so due to the incentives e.g. import tariffs are non existent. Protecting good paying American jobs is part of the general welfare of the people and our federal government has fallen asleep on the job as promoting the general welfare. Now the general welfare of big industry it has done a very good job as record profits and executive salaries indicate.

Here is a link on our free trade agreements and their effect on other nations.

Free Trade and Immigration: Cause and Effect

The issue of the influx of illegal/ undocumented immigrants is a multipronged issue not one that stands in alone.


We can spin our wheels all day about the laws not being enforced is a non starter for real reform.

Wow.....from your campaign literature?

From Le Wik re COHA:

The Director [edit]

Larry Birns has been the director of COHA since its founding in 1975. A former defense researcher and strategist and member of the Institute for Strategic Studies in London, and a member of Oxford's All Souls College, he was a senior grade public affairs officer for the United Nations Economic Commission for Latin America in Santiago, Chile during the Allende government. Birns taught and lectured for 15 years in the fields of Latin American studies, comparative government, and international law at a number of U.S. and British colleges and universities.

Independent perception[edit]

The Boston Globe describes Birns as a lobbyist and a liberal critic of U.S. policy, [2] and The New York Times says the Council on Hemispheric Affairs is a liberal research group specializing in United States-Latin America relations.[3] The Los Angeles Times describes the COHA as a liberal think tank.[4]

The Heritage Foundation stated that the Council on Hemispheric Affairs had a leftist positioning and would exaggerate negative publicity about right-wing governments in Latin America and was funded by Orlando Letelier.[5] The council was also described as a leftist lobby by Ofira Seliktar in "Failing the Crystal Ball Test".[6] The Daily Beast noted in an article that the council defends Hugo Chávez and his Bolivarian Revolution.[7]


The Council on Hemispheric Affairs was allegedly founded with the assistance and funding from Orlando Letelier and Richard Barnet of the left-wing think tank, Institute for Policy Studies.[5]

See also[edit]

United States and South and Central America


IPS - Now Lefty Bias Free for....never......!

George Rebane

BenE 1214pm - I believe you started the wheels spinning on non-enforcement of existing laws (see your comments above).

Now you have again taken the favored Left side of the import-export argument - its OK to leave our ag industry to swing in the international markets wind (letting import of cheap produce from third world countries), however manufactories in such countries should be prevented from sending their cost competitive products to America. It makes perfect sense since there are fewer and no union workers on modern American farms voting Democrat. Not so in our remaining factories.

Mary Ann

I am amazed at how many of you think it is easy to register to vote. Please call the elections office and they will explain the process of registering new voters. I think you will be greatly surprised by the complex background checks that they do before you are added into the voter roles. I know this as I worked for the Butte Elections office several years back while I was going to Chico State, and was pleasantly surprised. My father-in-law spoke numerous times about "those damn immigrants who are all registering for Obama!!!" After I showed him what was involved, he never said a word again....

My brother's wife (and she is from Argentina) had a child in south America, and my niece is a American / Argentinean citizen. My sister in law spent 3 years awaiting entry into the US before she became a citizen, and the question for me is did this three years assimilate her to our society any faster, did it make her a better citizen, after all she obeyed all of the rules?

Did it help my niece become a better prepared student and ready to be on a equal basis to her soon to me classmates?

After seeing their specific results, I would tend to say NO.

Now I can understand why women would walk across the boarder to have their children as the US is the promised land, but how long can America continue this?

What I would like to see is anyone who has a higher education (Masters, PhD levels) be granted immediate entry (work VISA) into the US, with a accelerated entry for citizenship. I used to see engineers (who were brilliant) awaiting for 3-5 years just to come into the US for a work VISA (what a loss!!!).

I want the US to become a brain drain on the rest of the civilized world. I want people who have spent their time in school to be rewarded for choosing to enrich our country with their knowledge and hard work. America has fallen back several steps in the technological leadership of the world, while the rest of the world marches forward.

Cheap produce from Mexico will always be there, and as our water supplies dwindle we will be left with a former status as the world breadbasket, while the world moves forward.

George Rebane

MaryA 125pm - There is much that you agree with re voters and voting that is the RR position (see also Conservetarian Credo). However, it is extremely easy to register to vote - I have seen it from both sides. Recall, I also am a naturalized citizen. What are you recommending besides following the law as it now exists re vetting the registrant? It sounds like you are recommending some shortcuts that do not compromise the system. We all know that becoming a duly recognized franchised voter is perhaps the most sacrosanct contract that our society makes with a citizen.


I am amazed at how many of you think it is easy to register to vote. Please call the elections office and they will explain the process of registering new voters. I think you will be greatly surprised by the complex background checks that they do before you are added into the voter roles. I know this as I worked for the Butte Elections office several years back while I was going to Chico State, and was pleasantly surprised. My father-in-law spoke numerous times about "those damn immigrants who are all registering for Obama!!!" After I showed him what was involved, he never said a word again....

Spare me "Mary Ann"!

If you can fog a mirror in the US you can vote despite what the bleeding hearts tell you. Motor voter...same day reg....handled by DMV types........please!

Account Deleted

"I am amazed at how many of you think it is easy to register to vote."
I'm always amazed at how little folks think of the sacrifices made by those who gave their lives so we can vote. I'll always remember the picture of some central American country where folks were braving gunfire to vote.
If you don't care enough to register and pay attention to the candidates and issues and then go out on election day and vote, then you shouldn't be voting. Voting is a right for legal citizens, but it carries responsibilities as well. I suppose registering to vote is hard if you think walking and chewing gum is hard. I managed it even though the lefties that comment here think I don't know anything. I didn't think it was hard at all. But what do I know?


"America has fallen back several steps in the technological leadership of the world, while the rest of the world marches forward.

Cheap produce from Mexico will always be there, and as our water supplies dwindle we will be left with a former status as the world breadbasket, while the world moves forward."

What the US lacks is what Ibn Khaldun referred to as 'asabiyyah'. The rest is just window dressing.

Brad C.

Posted by: drivebyposter | 03 March 2015 at 09:00 PM
"What the US lacks is what Ibn Khaldun referred to as 'asabiyyah'. The rest is just window dressing."

Sounds like ISIS is all about asabiyyah. This is probably also a part of what drives the push for the State of Jefferson.

"Ibn Khaldun uses the term Asabiyyah to describe the bond of cohesion among humans in a group forming community. The bond, Asabiyyah, exists at any level of civilization, from nomadic society to states and empires.[3] Asabiyyah is most strong in the nomadic phase, and decreases as civilization advances.[3] As this Asabiyyah declines, another more compelling Asabiyyah may take its place; thus, civilizations rise and fall, and history describes these cycles of Asabiyyah as they play out.[3]

Ibn Khaldun argues that each dynasty (or civilization) has within itself the seeds of its own downfall. He explains that ruling houses tend to emerge on the peripheries of great empires and use the much stronger `asabiyya present in those areas to their advantage, in order to bring about a change in leadership. This implies that the new rulers are at first considered "barbarians" by comparison to the old ones." -Wiki

Is the US getting to the later stages of the asabiyyah cycle?

"As they establish themselves at the center of their empire, they become increasingly lax, less coordinated, disciplined and watchful, and more concerned with maintaining their new power and lifestyle at the centre of the empire—i.e, their internal cohesion and ties to the original peripheral group, the `asabiyya, dissolves into factionalism and individualism, diminishing their capacity as a political unit. Thus, conditions are created wherein a new dynasty can emerge at the periphery of their control, grow strong, and effect a change in leadership, beginning the cycle anew." - Wiki

George Rebane

Re BradC 104pm and Asabiyya - the State of Jefferson is low grade ore compared to the asabiyya force and momentum that our southwestern Latino communities have exhibited for years, and are now achieving the next stage of militancy (see La Raza and MALDEF). But asabiyya is indeed a classic social force in all human civilizations that grow beyond the ability to maintain a grass roots level of cohesion.

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