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17 April 2015

Comments

George Rebane

More for StevenF to give him a hint of what other people have seen, analyzed, and concluded about the Great California Exodus –

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/15/upshot/the-california-exodus.html?_r=0
http://www.voiceofsandiego.org/topics/economy/san-diegos-business-exodus-is-really-a-people-exodus/
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304444604577340531861056966
http://www.housingwire.com/articles/32489-high-cost-of-california-housing-driving-resident-exodus
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/03/13/this-stunning-chart-shows-you-exactly-what-the-calif-exodus-looks-like-not-ready/

Steven Frisch

It is 2015 Russ, 2015.

Gregory

"We all get to read the "experts" and then we have free will to choose who we trust."

Well yes, you have that free will, but what you describe is politics or religion. In science, the historic motto of The Royal Society (Sir Issac Newton is a past President) is Nullius in Verba... take no one's word for it. It isn't a matter of trusting an authority... it's a matter of understanding their argument, evaluating the data, and deciding how well that model explains what is known about the real world. And as Feynman once put it, "It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong."

When it comes to experiment, the data on atmospheric temperatures (as measured by both satellite and weather ballons aka radiosonde) is diverging wildly from the IPCC blessed general circulation models.
http://images.remss.com/figures/climate/RSS_Model_TS_compare_globe.png
http://www.remss.com/research/climate

The way Steven Frisch of the SBC keeps his head from exploding is to ignore real data like that and go on the offensive. Yes, Steve, I've been saying the AGW meme has been collapsing for years, and it has been. When I started, the pause was 10 years in the making, now it's been over 18 years since statistically significant warming has been seen worldwide by radiosonde or satellite sensors. Now, the temperature arrows, from oceanic cycles to solar cycles, are all pointing down.

So, how will the ruling party in California handle a collapse of their single most visible organizing principle? I'd say break out the popcorn but it will continue to be a slo-mo event. In the meantime, the Great Exodus will continue.

fish

Posted by: Gregory | 19 April 2015 at 07:39 AM

95% of the electorate is unable to, 'understand the argument, evaluate the data, and decide how well that model explains what is known about the real world' which is why we have the constant parade of "experts" herding the flock to the "proper" conclusion.

I suppose it's a good thing that the Manns and Grubers of this world need the ego gratification associated with letting their colleagues know how they just put one over on the rubes.

Todd Juvinall

It has never been about science but always about political power and control as well as money. The idea was concocted from whole cloth and the quest to find real world science in a fantasy has been funded by hundreds of billions of dollars ever since. Even Frisch gets his cut and he is adamant about keeping the largesse flowing from the weak kneed politicians cowed by the eco nut industry.

Gregory

Fish, yes, of course, but in the past experts (and educated lay audiences) who didn't agree weren't tarred by people like Steven Frisch with labels formerly reserved for neo-Nazis. What is particularly difficult for the unwashed masses is that in the physical sciences, it's nearly impossible to prove anything true, no matter how tall the stack of evidence is... because one inconvenient truth can prove a theory false and it's nearly impossible to know when you've discovered all that one needs to know.

The debate ain't over, and as the APS's chair for their climate statement review wrote in the WSJ, the science is not settled.

Gregory

Here's a bite from a paper on Sustainability published by the National Association of Scholars:
"Could there be a campus sustainability movement in the absence of belief in an urgent anthropogenic global warming crisis? In principle, yes. There was a strong environmental movement long before the AGW hypothesis was invented, and the other components of the CSM—anti-capitalism and progressive social justice theory—are connected to AGW only by tenuous threads. Nonetheless the sustainability movement has bet heavily on the validity of AGW, and if the hypothesis proves false—or unsustainable—the movement would lose most of its credibility." -page 98

http://www.nas.org/articles/sustainability_higher_educations_new_fundamentalism1

California's ruling party has made the same bets as the sustainability movement... Gov. Brown's train is but one example.

Steven Frisch

For the purposes of critique and for those who prefer to paint California as a failed state for ideological purpose rather than deal in facts, the following statistics are drawn from the California Department of Finance, California Employment Development Department, the California Lutheran University Center for Economic Research, the UCLA Anderson School Economic Forecast, the Center for the Continuing Study of the California Economy and Beacon Economics.

Under all of these trusted third party economic forecasters models California is now beyond talking about recovery from the ‘great recession’ and is in expansion mode. Whether you trust the Center for the Continuing Study of the California Economy, the UCLA Anderson Report, or Cal Lutheran’s Center for Economic Research and Forecasting, whose Q4 2014 starts, “This forecast is the most optimistic we’ve had for California in CERF’s existence,” the California economy is in very good shape relative to the rest of the nation.

California has had a steady 3% increase in jobs throughout 2013 and 2014 and into the first quarter of 2015.

The state’s falling unemployment is due to genuine improvements in labor markets rather than more workers giving up on their job search, which is a positive sign. Jobs will increase 2-3 percent over the next couple years. California’s 3% annual job gains from 2013-2014 have laid a solid foundation for future growth.

According to Beacon Economics and the Anderson Forecast in addition to enjoying an approximately 3% per year annual GDP growth for the last two years, we can expect to see 3% GDP growth at least until 2018.

At Forecast L.A. on April 7th, Beacon Economics Founding Partner Chris Thronberg said, “We’re on fire,” and, “Our economy is hot.”

The UCLA Anderson Forecast on April 2 at UC Irvine touted the immense improvement in California’s economy, and how it will drive positive momentum between now and 2020.

All four forecasts and recent data from EDD and DOF show that the housing market is improving, construction jobs are rising which is an important indicator of future wage growth, housing will gain more traction, and all of this bodes well for homeowners and commercial property owners whose equity will increase leading to more investment capital in the economy. There were 100,000 new housing starts in 2014, which will be increasing to more than 120,000 per year between 2015-2018.

Continuing job growth is already meaning higher wages for workers, which rose approximately 2% in 2014 increasing to 4% a year over the next 3 years. This coupled with easier access to credit means workers will have more capacity to borrow and which means increased spending.

As mentioned earlier on this thread and disregarded in 2014 California hit record levels for venture capital investments.

All of these trusted and in fact regularly cites sources by both George and Russ agree the California economy is strong, growing and has reason for real optimism. If they were good enough sources for them to cite when things were bad why would they be bad sources when they are optimistic?

Are some businesses leaving the state? Absolutely. Are new businesses being created and are existing businesses expanding? Absolutely. This is the essence of ‘creative destruction’ and is to be expected. Is the price of a U-Haul a proxy for some of the best data based economic sources and most experienced forecasters in the country, sources you yourselves have regularly cited? No.

Now I am aware that many of you think I am an apologist for the Brown administration. To assuage your fears I agree, and have agreed here in the past, that there are problems. I agree that we are not doing enough to drive business and job growth into rural regions, that we need reforms in our state budget process, that we need tax reform, that we need to reform CEQA, that we need to take advantage of growth to address under-employment (which George has pointed out here is a global trend), that we need to address pension debt.

In every one of those areas (except pensions) I have worked in Sacramento to join others to propose solutions.

The reason we are talking about the economy is that it is the rationale many have for the creation of the State of Jefferson. As George demonstrated in his original post, people are captured by the magical thinking that secession and creation of a new state will solve these problems.

I am here to tell you the problem isn’t as bad as you are painting, things are getting better fast, and the way to solve the rural economic problem is to dig in and do it for the rural regions now and together, rather than waiting for some revolution that is not going to happen.

First, the state and federal legislatures are never going to agree to the creation of a new state. It would upset too many balances of political power at the state and federal level; it opens too many issues of who owns what between the state, the feds, and the SOJ; it opens the door to other secession movements across the country that would throw things like the electoral college and congressional representation into turmoil, and there is a reason it has not happened since West Virginia split off in 1862. The California legislature and the US Congress are never going to approve the SOJ.

Second, the stories you are hearing that the SOJ would improve local economies based on its own federal land management policies are bunk. Every federal law you guys hate that manages federally owned natural resources would still apply in the SOJ. The Clean Water Act, Clean Air Act, National Environmental Planning Act, the National Forest Management Act, the Federal Powers Act, the Antiquities Act, the Endangered Species Act, they will all apply, and they will all be enforced by their respective agencies whether through the SOJ or California.

Third, representation within the SOJ will still be governed by United States Supreme Court decisions, and the decision that established the ‘one person-one vote’ rule, Reynolds v. Sims. Some, like Mike Baird, may say, “well lets just overturn Reynolds v. Sims”, as a matter of fact he sad that last month. Well all of you here know that is not going to happen. Ever. You could not even convince conservative Supreme Court justices to overturn Reynolds, because it would be the Prop 187 of the conservative movement at the national level. You would permanently disenfranchise the Republican Party from African and Hispanic American voters.

Here is the part of George’s statement that I agree with wholeheartedly, “The cry from these people has been ignored for over a generation, and working within ‘the system’ of a state dedicated to serving the populous coastal urban areas which have totally different interests and goals has not worked, and shows no signs of working in the future.”

The answer to this problem is not to waste our time attempting to split from the state, which will never happen, but to bring the concerns, issues and solutions to rural problems to the halls of power and demand change. We may disagree on exactly what that change is, but harnessing the dissatisfaction of rural regions about how the state has invested in rural California will make a huge difference. To tie that change to a hare brained scheme that is the object of not just derision but that pro-actively offends both residents and decision-makers from other regions of our state, is sheer folly, is counter-productive to the real aims of people who think we need a SOJ, and is doomed to failure.

Now I don’t doubt that we would disagree on much, but we would likely agree on much, like the need for investments in infrastructure and housing, forest management and energy, rural broadband connectivity, business development, area of origin water rights, improved education and tax reform.

To spend time, resources and limited local government capacity on the SOJ merely retards progress in all of these areas where reasonable people could find common ground and where we could carry a common message to Sacramento that we need a fair deal in rural California.

And that is the real problem with both George’s sentiments reflected above and the entire SOJ movement, it is derivative and intentionally polarizing, and a luxury for armchair philosophers of some idyllic ‘conservatarian’ state who have no real stake in the outcome, but who choose to adopt this movement for individual glory, political power and gamesmanship. People like Mike Baird are going to end up on Fox News and the lecture circuit, sucking people like George into paying to hear them speak to rooms of disgruntled retirees who have nothing better to do than see Richard Mack and Rosa Koire spin conspiracy theories based on chimera.

Meanwhile the people who work, and live, and raise their kids, and depend upon real leadership to improve their condition will suffer while their local representatives pay lip service to Tea Party types holding a gun to their heads, while laughing behind the scenes at all the silly things they have to do to assuage the base, which is exactly what is going to happen on May 12th.

fish

Meanwhile the people who work, and live, and raise their kids, and depend upon real leadership to improve their condition will suffer while their local representatives pay lip service to Tea Party types holding a gun to their heads, while laughing behind the scenes at all the silly things they have to do to assuage the base, which is exactly what is going to happen on May 12th.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!

.....whew.


Stevie everyone who posts here does just fine living in "your" world. We get to criticize what we think is wrong and that is what the SoJ proponents seem to be doing.

I thought that this would be another instance when you would simply fall back on your pose of smug superiority bemused at silly antics of the unenlightened.

Gregory

From the Director of UCLA's Anderson Report, one of Frisch's claimed sources (though he's soft on details):
"The United States has had 25 percent growth in payroll jobs since 1990. Can you name the three major cities that had job declines over that same period? You might find it easy to think of two: Detroit and Cleveland. The third, and actually the worst of the three, was Los Angeles, which lost 3.1 percent of its payroll jobs over those two decades.

Even in California's most successful cities, San Francisco and San Jose, there has been little or no overall job growth in the last decade, and the substantial progress up north has supported jobs and income for the few, not for the many."

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/forecast-director:-l-a-has-three-big-problems

Forecasting paltry growth over the next couple of years does nothing to regain lost ground.

Steven Frisch

I am not soft on details, as you just proved you can go read the reports for yourself.

I fully acknowledge there are some problems and did so. Of course the report i cited was from April 2015 while the one you are citing is from April of 2014. There have been some changes since 2014. That is what economic reports track. And the point that job creation has over time meant jobs have move to exurban areas is well known. LA and SF have some clear constraints, like lack of developable land, which leads to new ventures looking on the edges.

The biggest change in LA was the decline of the aero-space and aircraft industry, which I am sure George can attest to.

By the way, in my comments I agree that we need broader job creation and to focus on under-employment.

What I am objecting too is this absolutist vision of the economy that George and Russ seem so intent on pushing. The real issues are much more nuanced than "companies are having California". Sure, some companies are leaving California, we are also creating companies, and some companies are moving here. Happens all the time.

George Rebane

StevenF 922am+ - Steve, we are clearly talking past each other in that you cite hopeful predictions (by the usually 'surprised' suspects), while I and others cite recorded performance. In re SoJ, you may agree that our representation in Sacramento is broken, but you and yours have not offered any alternatives of how we may get our voice heard save through the usual pabula and palliatives of 'we have to work together' (aka the Rodney King solution).

As a spokesman for centralized power, you would do much better to attract us as willing partners for the resurgence of rural California if you gave even a hint of acknowledging the stifling effects of regulations, and that if you tax something more, you get less of it. Is there any hope for such thoughts in a progressive mind?

Administrivia - I draw your kind attention to the 19apr15 update to this post in which I offer qualified praise for Mr Frisch's considerable contributions to this discussion and debate that goes far to illustrate the state of public affairs in California.

Steven Frisch

George, I think you must have missed the metrics of actual performance that are also included in my comments--job creation, increased income, housing starts, etc.--and that skews your critique.

The question still stands, how can you cite a source at one time as qualified yet reject it at another? There is a real problem with that.

I also am on record here many times supporting changes in the regulatory and tax structure--CEQA reform, sunset provisions, performance metrics, zero based budgeting, changing timber practices, reducing business taxes--yet you never seem to able to acknowledge that. I may not want to do everything you want, nor do we agree on precisely what to do, but to say I never acknowledge the impact of regulations nor propose change is a misrepresentation of my position.

Is this an either or proposition George--either agree with you 100% or be be branded a collectivist, liberal--if so what is the point of your blog? Isn't it to help people hash some of their thoughts o these issues out? And if I am to agree that if you tax something you get less of it, isn;t that just another way of saying you get more of something else? Perhaps something better.

I am on record, tax fossil fuel, get more renewables. I totally support that.

Steven Frisch

Wow, what an update that is George. Just goes to show one how you welcome a different voice to the fold here. Post at George's and be essentially attacked both personally and professionally and with what are clearly lies and falsehood only to have that parroted by the legion of intellectually bereft minions.

You are a real class act...I knew you were from they way you lied to Paul Emery about following any sort of rules of decorum in a public format.

But to the great unwashed and rare outside reader, I think you just got a taste of why the State of Jefferson movement is so doomed to failure and such a waste of time. Because it s supported by people who are more interested in sitting on the porch collecting their old age pensions while reading The Blaze and kvetching about how they use to walk five miles to school in the snow when they were children than actually working on a real solution.

Bill  Tozer

Mr. Frisch, I find your whining about agreeing 100% with Dr. George or "be branded a collectivist, liberal" rather odd. Therefore I disagree with your premise, you pinko Marxist socialist commie bastard. But, all is not black and white. You have plenty of gray matter left in your Mellon. Plus, we must keep reminding ourselves that the Internet has changed the way we communicate, dear comrad.

https://www.facebook.com/boom99.7/photos/pb.222336294466387.-2207520000.1429467142./973968799303129/?type=3&theater

Walt

Hummmm... I wonder where Steve will skedaddle too when SoJ becomes reality?
I'm pretty sure the current state freebie handout bucket will dry up.

Steven Frisch

Walt, I am wondering if you have that critique of my motivations, would not the same motivation be present in scientists who fund their work through conservative think tank and produce reports denying climate change? How do you rationalize the inherent inconsistency of your world view?

Terry Burns

SoJ a reality? Wheres the money coming from, certainly not from the sale of water.....

If you look at the proposed SoJ budget, they could not even generate enough money to fund the Police and Fire Services without big help from another resource. What about schools, healthcare etc.?

Nice thought, but no resources to make this happen....

Steven Frisch

Hey, I am just saying Bill that I put ideas out there, your friends just don't agree with them, or credit them in any way, which just goes to show you how absolutist the entire mind set here is. Sit on porch, drink beer (or wine for those elitists that fancy themselves kultured), collect pension, complain about the world, support bat shit crazy nonsense, and blog until your fingers bleed.

Actually as long as the crew here is wasting their time blogging they are not out there doing anything, which works for me!

Steven Frisch

Totally correct Terry, not only where is the money coming from, but where is the money to repay the SOJ's portion of the state debt coming from? I calculate that at more than $300 per person, per month for the next 20 years.

Steven Frisch

Bottom line is welfare queens like Walt and Greg need elitists like those who live in Marin and Beverly Hills to pay their freight, because they don't generate enough taxes to do it on their own :)

George Rebane

StevenF 1143am - No AGW skeptic (or conservative think tank) denies climate change - that notion is the eternal red herring of progressives. What they do deny is the veracity of govt sponsored (includes academics) 'science' that infamously interprets data, predicts the unpredictable with demonstrably flawed tools, and then propagandizes that we know how to and therefore must bend climate to our benefit through an amalgam of non-uniformly applied public policies formulated by agenda-driven politicians incapable of understanding climate science as it is.

re TerryB's 1145am - a classic example of the Left's ongoing embrace of stasis.

Jeff Pelline

George,
California will never be the state that you envision, just as Southern California wasn't when you fled to western Nevada County from Simi Valley. In fact, this community is changing as well. While this blog is a good way to vent, it will never influence public policymaking beyond a mall core group of like-minded readers. Along with the name calling in this email thread, your "update" only serves to support your misunderstanding that the SOJ is opposed by people of all political stripes, not just liberals. I hope the BOS has the courage that clear during this upcoming spectacle.

Steven Frisch

No problem George, except, some do actually deny climate change, like Greg, and some deny the anthropogenic contribution to climate change. And the point you are making is derivative: the question is Walt if you questions my motives because you suspect they may be financial, do you equally suspect others, and if not, why not?

Every discussion here by the way turns into and exercise in circular logic. George, you have completely failed to actually respond to any of my key points about the California economy--you dismiss them, as oh, woe is me, too much data. I don't deny there are problems, why do you deny that there are good things happening?

It all comes back to motives--if good things are happening it weakens your ideology.

Steven Frisch

Posted by: Jeff Pelline | 19 April 2015 at 12:07 PM


I suspect they will not 'clear that up' Jeff because people like George are holding a figurative gun to their heads. Oppose the SOJ and you are not sufficiently right wing enough for us and we will work doubly hard to replace you at the next election.

Wanna bet?

The more conservative Supes who think this is bat-shit just want it to go away, which is why Keep It California is so important.

fish

Posted by: Steven Frisch | 19 April 2015 at 11:50 AM


Then there is some plan for a "unified" California to retire this debt (I assume that a similar percentage would apply to the state as a whole) instead of relying on the smoke and mirrors accounting that's currently in vogue under the governance of the democrats pulling the levers of power in Sacramento?

fish

I suspect they will not 'clear that up' Jeff because people like George are holding a figurative gun to their heads. Oppose the SOJ and you are not sufficiently right wing enough for us and we will work doubly hard to replace you at the next election.


...and that's different from the political process in general how?

Steven Frisch

No there is no pan, Fish, but SOJ residents will lose the largess of the more wealthy regions in helping to subsidize paying the debt, and SOJ will have to pay their portion of the debt before they secede so you are really supporting taxing the average household about $600 per month if you vote to secede.

Steven Frisch

Posted by: fish | 19 April 2015 at 12:17 PM

No different than the political process Fish, and never aid it was, just think that if you are going a figurative gun to someone's head you should do it for something that means something.

fish

Posted by: Steven Frisch | 19 April 2015 at 12:22 PM


Who are you to tell them that this isn't important?

I think your AGW obsession is nonsense but you're welcome to beat your gums about it (and suffer the mockery associated with your belief) all you want.

Bill  Tozer

Well, the California economy better be doing better since The Great Recession has officially ended a few years ago. Jobs have been created. I know this as a fact because I have 3 of them. Now, from a historical perspective, we are much much closer to the next recession than a robust recovery.

Mr. Frisch seems like a very intelligent, articulate fellow. And, as former Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid might add, Mr. Frisch is probably clean, good looking, and speaks without the Negro dialect.

I believe the flaw in one of the points Mr. Frisch put forth is that Sacramento will not heed rural counties' concerns with any sense of urgency or seriousness. Sure, they might toss us hillbillies a bone or two until we calm down and quit being uppity and get put back in our place. They (the powers to be) will wait till the winds change and this silly notion of having a new State with effectual representation blows over. Nothing to see here, move on. Our influence in reality won't change a lick today or tomorrow or 5 years from now.

I am saddened by the constant drumbeat of liberal old angry white men like Curtis Walker & Co. commence to put down the elderly white folks on pensions with such an insulting tone. We old geezers here are allowed to sit on the swinging bench under the ole shade tree, swinging and whittling to our heart's content but not blooding our fingers blogging on matters too great for us to comprehend, much less comment about. That is reserved for old angry white liberal men drawing their pensions and the few shakers and movers of the progressive bent. Most ironic. Well, a few parting thoughts before the speech police come a'knocking.

https://www.facebook.com/boom99.7/photos/pb.222336294466387.-2207520000.1429470331./971010566265619/?type=3&theater

Steven Frisch

Posted by: fish | 19 April 2015 at 12:29 PM

Seriously Fish this entire blog is premised on people saying what they think is important and NOT important. I have as much of a right as anyone else. Who is George or Greg or anyone else to say that what I work on is not important? I would ask you the same question I asked Walt--how do you live with having what are clearly double standards?

Steven Frisch

We don't dislike old white men on pensions Bill, we dilate old white men on pensions whose ideas represent the 19th century. I have a lot of friends who are old white men on pensions and plan to be one one day :)

Todd Juvinall

Jeff Pelline | 19 April 2015 at 12:07 PM

Wow! Now let me get this straight. California was the greatest state in our great country. A leader in all aspects, economic, sociol and education for most of my life. Then the democrats decided to make it better. In their attempts, the wrecked the place and people like Pelline and Frisch are just fine with all that apparently.

So if we all acknowledge how great it was under the circumstances and governance it once was, why can we not have it back? Pelline is just a negatory man while Frisch receives largesse from the dismal place and its grants and tax structures so they are of course "happy" with the current circumstances.

Though I am not a supporter of SoJ I understand why people have risen up to take back the place from the liberal usurpers. It won't be easy but one thing is for sure, people like theFrich can always find a way to make money by being good butt kissers to the powerful. I mean jeeze, he is opposed to oil and gas yet loves the revenues they bring. If ever there was a clear example of hypocrisy. As bad as taking money from the tobacco taxes for children's health programs.

Steven Frisch

Man I hate auto spell.

Walt

Where will the money come they say? Uh,, it already here. It just won't be sent to Sac. anymore. The good chance the mines can be opened again. Money from the ground.. What a concept. The idea of a new state peeling away from another, or telling the state that an aria is currently part of to kiss their collective ass and say " WE are now joining "this" state,, is catching on back East. All thanks to rabid Progressiveness. ( A part of N.Y. off the top of my head,, due to oil and gas extraction restrictions... )

Progressives have done a FINE job of dividing the nation, even to the point of states wanting to break away from each other, all because of their collective bullshit. From hyper taxation, hyper gun control, and the biggy,, hyper ECO.

LIBS have so much baggage their own Donkey mascot is refusing to haul the load.

The SoJ idea is only going to grow, when the likes of LA. and S.F. demand more of OUR resources. ( like WATER) We up here need to go without to fill the swimming pools of city LIBS.. Nope, that isn't going over vary well.

fish

Posted by: Steven Frisch | 19 April 2015 at 12:49 PM

Seriously Fish this entire blog is premised on people saying what they think is important and NOT important.
I have as much of a right as anyone else.

You seem to have exercised that right a great deal this weekend...without out any restrictions. Again, the SoJ people have as much right to waste the governments time as anyone.

Who is George or Greg or anyone else to say that what I work on is not important?

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Sierra Business Council receives grant money? Tax money?

Seems to me that makes it eligible for discussion. If this isn't the case then a retract the assertion.

I would ask you the same question I asked Walt--how do you live with having what are clearly double standards?

While I won't deny your point right now you're going to need to narrow it down a bit.

Walt

Here is a little on the New York split.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/feb/17/secession-movement-in-new-york-pushes-for-big-appl/?page=all

The bottom line is,, if secession takes place anywhere, the Progressive LIB caused it.
So they can add that to their list of "accomplishments".

Walt

Steevy is now making outright false statements!! ( I missed it earlier)
You can go screw yourself. I have never taken one dime in welfare! NEVER!!!
I have worked for everything I have. Unlike YOU , who has a hand outstretched 24/7.

Steven Frisch

Hey Walt, I think you missed the point...which I made intentionally vague just to make you mad...everyone who lives in Nevada County is a welfare queen the way I defined it...we pay less in state taxes than we receive in state services from the state.

So you are all (except Fish and perhaps Bill?) queens! Put on the pumps and fishnet stockings boys. Get your bustier on! You are all sucking on the teat of big government.

By the way Fish by your logic I have a right to critique a military veterans life style choices because they are getting veterans benefits. Can I critique people's lifestyles who are on social security? If so I think George needs to buy a Prius instead of a Jeep.

Walt

Typical When people like him got nothing to argue with they resort to slander.
Funny. The likes of SBC survives on "welfare". ( handouts from others)
Yup,, since I pay taxes, he even fleeces MY pockets.

Steven Frisch

Walt you ever take a public contract for dirt moving? QUEEN!

Steven Frisch

See you guys can dish it out but you really can't take it. I provide services. My clients are both public and private (mostly private). There is no difference between what I do and anyone else who takes any public check for anything.

Bonnie McGuire

I can't believe the idiocy of those exploiting climate change at the expense of working people and our economy. It's amazing how blind, deaf and dumb some people are paid to be. From what I've learned from earlier scientists with an honest agenda, in publications, and what they posted along our highways and national parks the earth has always been in a process of climate change regardless of the animals populating it. Our landscape in America used to be covered with a glacier that reached almost to Mexico. It's been warming for over 14,000 years when the mastodons roamed on America. This is the earth's way of transforming its surface. Valleys carved by melting, moving ice and water. Scientists believe a Super Volcano erupted and created climate change in a little over a week because of the tremendous amount of sulfur it expelled into the atmospere creating an ice age glacier. Where's the last glacier on American soil? It's gone because the climate has been warming for centuries. I realize there are those that are well paid to keep their heads in the sand, so no amount of reason will change what they're being paid to teach.

Walt

"Put on the pumps and fishnet stockings boys. Get your bustier on! You are all sucking on the teat of big government."
That's a good one. Seems YOUR the one with calloused knees. To get as much money you get you sure must use that tongue mighty pretty. Ya' work weekends at the Bunny Ranch? They have been in the political news lately.

Steven Frisch

Walt you did not answer my question, did you ever take a government contract or work a government job as a dirt mover? (I ain't dissing your job, I would ask the same of a Phd, like George)

Walt

That's the best ya' got Steve? Now attacking prevailing wadge? ( gov. dirt work)
Uh,, just "who" pushed for those ridiculous pay scales? Your fellow LIBS.
So you have no one to blame but your own.

Walt

I didn't see you bitching about that 50 grand in junk "art" for the roundabout in GV.
Yaaa... Take shots at me... Nice try.

BTW.. wipe your chin.

Todd Juvinall

What a hoot! The biggest whore here, the SBC fellow, is calling all of the people welfare queens in Nevada County! So let me get this straight. The SBC supports laws against all the natural resources being extracted here, then lobbies for money to retrain all those they help put out of work then have the heuvos to call those they crapped on "queens"! Now if that isn't rich. My goodness, with that logic is it any wonder the state is in crapola land?

Steven Frisch

I think you are saying yes you have received money from government contracts (regardless of your position on prevailing wage, but I know you are against it, and yes, it sounds like you accepted prevailing wage too!)

So, you live on welfare, in your book, just like me.

Todd Juvinall

Walt, Frisch is delusional. What a hoot! His comedy act is truly amazing.

Walt

Good luck finding one dime that came my way from any government agency.
But NOPE,, Don't EVER recall doing any work on a gov. project that paid prevailing wadge.
But it's laughable for an OPMer to point fingers at others. ( that would be Other People's Money) BTW How is that " free rent" hunt going? Any suckers? What's the new ponzy scam since the worm farm went tits up? Installing solar panels in mine tunnels?

BTW,, Seems your China connections didn't buy your sales pitch. They are pumping more CO2 than ever. ( then it blows here on the jet steam.) Yup I recall you bragging about your trip or two to Commie land... On someone else's dime no less.

Walt

What's up Steevy? the handout revenue not what it used to be? I hear the sounds of desperation from your yapping.
I would be fearful too if I was in your position, especially if the SoJ took hold.
The OPM tit would dry up fast.

Your kind of like "O".. Never made an honest dollar in one's life. ( it's easier to sucker that buck from someone else.. That IS the Liberal way)

fish

Posted by: Steven Frisch | 19 April 2015 at 01:51 PM

So you are all (except Fish and perhaps Bill?) queens!


Oh no, you can include me on this list as well. 15 years ago I would have been making very similar arguments to those you are now. I've seen just how wasteful government is first hand.

If I lose my job and the position is done away with it will be one grain of sand in the right direction.

By the way Fish by your logic I have a right to critique a military veterans life style choices because they are getting veterans benefits. Can I critique people's lifestyles who are on social security? If so I think George needs to buy a Prius instead of a Jeep.

I'm not seeing how you made this leap of logic Steve? Whether the SBC is funded with taxpayer dollars or not is a legitimate political discussion. If you choose to blow your wages on hookers and blow after the fact isn't a line that I've crossed.

Gregory

So many bigoted defamations, so little time.

Just picking a few Frischian blathers:

"Who is George or Greg or anyone else to say that what I work on is not important?"

The SBC was hired to facilitate NH2020 community meetings long ago. The people of the county were not expecting the SBC to drive them to predetermined conclusions. Somebody lied and I suspect the SBC was in on it. No, having the state borrow money from China so there's money for grants for the SBC to help herd the sheeple isn't what I want my taxes burned for.

"No problem George, except, some do actually deny climate change, like Greg, and some deny the anthropogenic contribution to climate change"

It may be an artifact of your trivial arts education, but you either don't understand, choose to ignore what I actually write or prefer to lie about it. I neither "deny" climate change, nor do I "deny" anthropogenic contributions. In fact, had I been included in the Doran & Zimmerman survey, I'd have been counted as one of the "97%" that agreed that temps had risen in the last century and that a significant amount was anthropogenic, but that's using the scientific definition of "significant" not what the "oh god, we're all going to die" trivial arts crowd prefer.

"Walt, I am wondering if you have that critique of my motivations, would not the same motivation be present in scientists who fund their work through conservative think tank and produce reports denying climate change?"

I named a number of scientists in my first response to your multiple unprovoked ad homs, 18 April 2015 at 04:01 PM. Name one what is producing 'denialist' research because your designated bogymen are paying them. That's more true of the alarmist scientists (including Santer) who produce what the NSF is willing to fund and they have a history of only funding scientists who produce the desired alarmist papers. As James Lovelock put it, "So why on earth are the politicians spending a fortune of our money when we can least afford it on doing things to prevent events 50 years from now? They've employed scientists to tell them what they want to hear."

"I ain't buying your "I am from Harvey Mudd so I know better" schtick."

That never happened; you're confusing ad homs from a delusional retired teacher with a limited attention span who invented that out of whole cloth as he thought a sociology major with access to Wikipedia matched actual rigorous study of math and science. It isn't about where I studied that gives me more gravitas about matters of science than you, it's what I studied. Math, physics, chemistry, engineering... of those, Steve, what did you take besides "college algebra" and "Your friend, the Amoeba", on your way to a trivial arts degree in PoliSci at Cal State 'Frisco?


Russ Steele

From the Instapundit: FROM CALIFORNIA DREAMIN’ TO CALIFORNIA NIGHTMARE: Joel Kotkin over at Daily Beast has a great piece explaining how California’s drought crisis illustrates the State’s devolution into a feudalistic society dominated by an oligarchy of super-rich liberals who’ve handcuffed the State’s ability to grow and prosper:

But ultimately the responsibility for California’s future lies with our political leadership, who need to develop the kind of typically bold approaches past generations have embraced. One step would be building new storage capacity, which Governor Jerry Brown, after opposing it for years, has begun to admit is necessary. Desalinization, widely used in the even more arid Middle East, notably Israel, has been blocked by environmental interests but could tap a virtually unlimited supply of the wet stuff, and lies close to the state’s most densely populated areas. Essentially the state could build enough desalinization facilities, and the energy plants to run them, for less money than Brown wants to spend on his high-speed choo-choo to nowhere. This piece of infrastructure is so irrelevant to the state’s needs that even many progressives, such as Mother Jones’ Kevin Drum, consider it a “ridiculous” waste of money.

And there needs to be, at least for the short term, an end to dumping water into San Francisco Bay for the purpose of restoring a long-gone salmon run, or to the Delta, in order to save a bait-fish, the Delta smelt, which may already be close to extinct. This dumping of water has continued even as the state has faced a potentially crippling water shortage; nothing is too good for our fish, or to salve the hyper-heated consciousness of the environmental illuminati.

Kotkin concludes:

What we are witnessing the breakdown of a once-expansive, open society into one dominated by a small group of plutocrats, largely in Silicon Valley, with an “amen” crew among the low-information donors of Hollywood, the public unions, the green lobby, and wealthy real estate developers favored by Brown’s pro-density policies. This coalition backs Brown and helps maintain the state’s essentially one-party system. No one is more adamant about reducing people’s carbon footprint than the jet set of Silicon Valley or the state’s planning elite, even if they choose not to live in a manner that they instruct all others.

Yep–pretty much sums up the progressives’ approach to problems: Political correctness+ignorance+crony capitalism= preferred “solution.”

I highly recommend everyone read the whole thing. As you may recall, Kotkin was the featured speaker at the ERC Second Annual Economic Summit. I have been a fan of Kotkin's insight for years.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/04/19/big-idea-california-is-so-over.html

Steven Frisch

What is always amazing to me is how much you all think you know versus how little you actually know:

"having the state borrow money from China so there's money for grants for the SBC to help herd the sheeple isn't what I want my taxes burned for."

No money for SBC in the NH2020 process came from the state, the funding to pay for SBC's role came from private funders, we brought it to the county.

"..were not expecting the SBC to drive them to predetermined conclusions."

All decisions about content and process were made by the county. SBC did not have the authority to make these decisions.

"...grants for the SBC to help herd the sheeple isn't what I want my taxes burned for."

None of your money was used or SBC.

"...agreed that temps had risen in the last century and that a significant amount was anthropogenic," Yet you are on record hear claiming that AGW stopped in 1997.

"....Name one what is producing 'denialist' research because your designated bogymen are paying them." Well I guess right off the bat Willie Soon, Judith Curry and Richard Lindzen, two of whom you said you would choose to argue the case above would come to mind.

"...That never happened;" That happens all the time, you regularly denigrate other people ability to understand or their standing to comment on climate science on this blog.


Steven Frisch

"Math, physics, chemistry, engineering... of those, Steve, what did you take besides "college algebra" and "Your friend, the Amoeba", on your way to a trivial arts degree in PoliSci at Cal State 'Frisco?"

See, there you go again, Gregie. On another thread on this blog people take Jeff Pelline to task for acting like he knows better about things because he is a college graduate, or has a formal education, or thinks he is 'smarter'. They call that 'elitism" and are offended by it. They claim that a person who spends their entire adult life reading, learning, searching out wise people and challenging ideas can be self educated, and that the learning of a life can be more valuable.

Yet you somehow get a pass from your peers here when you regularly try to demean people for not having a formal education in what you like to say are the 'hard' sciences, which are inherently more valuable in your mind then even any other science. You are the ultimate 'elitist' and you sit in the midst of people who do not challenge that, who let you pass because they often agree with your opinion, which tells me quite bit about both your confidence in what you think you know and the value of your opinion.

Gregory

"No money for SBC in the NH2020 process came from the state, the funding to pay for SBC's role came from private funders, we brought it to the county."

If they got tax breaks for spending it on NH2020, that's close enough, but my intent was regarding most of SBC's "business".

"All decisions about content and process were made by the county. SBC did not have the authority to make these decisions."

If that's an admission the County was lying to the people of the County about NH2020, and SBC was just following orders of the folks giving them the money (Izzy Martin et al) please, do tell us more.

"Yet you are on record hear [sic] claiming that AGW stopped in 1997"

I'm sorry this is so difficult for you to follow, but the perhaps 1.0 to 1.5 degrees C per doubling of CO2 in the atmosphere continues. It's the total atmospheric temps, including natural variations, that have had a statistically insignificant change in the past 18 years. We'll have our first degree total of CO2 induced warming in about another century.

"That happens all the time, you regularly denigrate other people ability to understand or their standing to comment on climate science on this blog"

That you showed yourself incapable of either correctly representing pro-AGW science or pro-natural variations science, that criticism seems validated on this very thread. Stop calling me a denier and I'll stop pointing out your bloody minded ignorance as vigorously.

Nice editing of your statement, which was that I was guilty of playing an '"I am from Harvey Mudd so I know better" schtick'. I think that's evidence you know it was unsupportable.

"None of your money was used or SBC [sic]"

Sure it is.


Steven Frisch

Greg, people can donate to non-profit organizations and it is tax deductible, we don;t need you to tell us which ones are OK to donate to. You don't get to pick and choose.

There was not such admission about the county, I was denying lying to the people for the organization I was part of, I stopped beating my wife last year by the way Senator McCarthy; I do not speak for he county, and we did not then.

Yet you regularly use slowing of atmospheric temperature increase as evidence of the limited impact of humans, ignoring ocean temperatures or telling the readers how limited a measurement atmospheric temperatures are.

Finally, you can think what you want about me, but you are the definition of an intellectual elitist and your peers here ignore it regularly.

What charities do you donate to? Would you like me to approve the list?

Gregory

"Well I guess right off the bat Willie Soon, Judith Curry and Richard Lindzen, two of whom you said you would choose to argue the case above would come to mind."

Bullshit on all three claims. That they are producing "denialist" research because they are getting money from conservative think tanks to produce that research, please, and it had better be more than a day or so of consulting time on the science that most science professors do as a matter of course.

How many millions of grants has Michael Mann burned producing discredited research that even the IPCC doesn't quote anymore?

I get it, Steve, you want to be given a pass for your ignorance of the scientific issues at hand, while throwing epithets like "denier" at folks who don't agree with the Hansens, the Manns, or the Pachauris of the world (the last guy having degrees in railway engineering, economics and dabbles in writing soft porn and in female subordinates) and the Gleichs that you, with studied ignorance, have decided are scientifically correct.

Either argue the science, or STFU.

Gregory

"Yet you regularly use slowing of atmospheric temperature increase as evidence of the limited impact of humans, ignoring ocean temperatures or telling the readers how limited a measurement atmospheric temperatures are."

Actual quotes, please.

The influence of anthropogenic CO2 is smaller than natural variations, and that is supported by multiple lines of evidence, including measured temperatures being below virtually all of the simulation runs that alarmist science is based upon. Is that so hard for you to understand?

http://images.remss.com/figures/climate/RSS_Model_TS_compare_globe.png

The yellow is the 5-95% range for IPCC blessed simulation runs. Black is the actual temperature. Any questions?

Steven Frisch

Greg said: "I named a number of scientists in my first response to your multiple unprovoked ad homs, 18 April 2015 at 04:01 PM. Name one what is producing 'denialist' research because your designated bogymen are paying them."


Richard LIndzen is on staff at the Cato Institute and Lindzen charged "oil and coal interests $2,500 a day for his consulting services; [and] his 1991 trip to testify before a Senate committee was paid for by Western Fuels and a speech he wrote, entitled 'Global Warming: the Origin and Nature of Alleged Scientific Consensus,' was underwritten by OPEC."

Willie Soon received more than $1.2 million from the fossil fuel industry while failing to disclose that funding as required for review of his research.

Judith Curry, in addition to being paid full time to be the Chair of her department and a Professor at the Georgia Institute of Technology, also runs a consulting business, the Climate Forecast Applications Network, who clients are not disclosed (so she is a lot like me!) where she is described the Founder and 'Leader".

In an interview in she states, in her own words, ""I do receive some funding from the fossil fuel industry. My company...does hurricane forecasting...for an oil company, since 2007. During this period I have been both a strong advocate for the IPCC, and more recently a critic of the IPCC, there is no correlation of this funding with my public statements."

So I guess you are full of sh*t.

Gregory

Let me translate for the open minded readers...

Every penny of grants Soon (who I don't think I've ever relied upon) got went to Harvard and the Smithsonian, who administered the grant and took about 40% off the top. It was all disclosed.

Curry sells her weather forecasts to anyone who wants them.

Lindzen consulted for Exxon for a couple of days and gave a speech once to OPEC. Real scary, eh?

No one not in a Greenpeace frenzy thinks their published research was tainted. Pure ad hominem bullcrap from a usual suspect.

Steven Frisch

By the way, I never said the influence of anthropogenic CO2 is larger than natural variations; doesn't everyone know that natural variation s greater? I said previously somewhere (I ain't going to go look for it) that our output of roughly 30-35 gigatons of CO2 is small compared to the annual carbon cycle which is about 25 times higher but it is still important because it can't all be absorbed, it stays in the atmosphere accumulating. Atmospheric CO2 is at its highest level in 15 to 20 million years.

Gregory

"Yet you regularly use slowing of atmospheric temperature increase as evidence of the limited impact of humans, ignoring ocean temperatures or telling the readers how limited a measurement atmospheric temperatures are."

Actual quotes, please. That's well within the scope of the trivial arts you specialized in, Steve.

Walt

The professional begger and pain in the ass TROLL needs to crawl back under his rock.
If it wasn't for OPM, he would be under a bridge and still receiving OPM.. just not as much as he is accustomed too.

Steven Frisch

You can deny they are 'influenced' but it is the same charge you and others make about me when you call me a rent-seeker; Soon, Curry, to a lesser degree Linden, rent seek for their organizations. So let me be blunt, you are a complete hypocrite.

Plus you are just flat out wrong about Soon, anyone here can just friggin' Google it. And what I said was that Soon did not disclose the donations on his research papers, as was required, not that Harvard did not disclose it, so don't put words in my mouth.

Gregory

"but it is the same charge you and others make about me when you call me a rent-seeker"

Not at all. Your value added is helping others navigate the maze you help push on others. Curry and Lindzen sell their expertise on the weather to companies that need it (and the oil companies operating platforms in the gulf need all the weather understanding they can get).

Regarding Soon:
“The truth is that the Smithsonian received a number of grants and then paid Dr. Soon and others salaries and travel expenses. Dr. Soon’s immediate source of funding was the Smithsonian. Nothing more needs saying about this entire issue.”

— Dr. Christopher Essex, University of Western Ontario

Steven Frisch

You said "Name one" I named three.

Readers can go read about the controversy for themselves, and check the sources, which is what Wiki is really good for:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Soon#2011:_Funding_controversy

You are just never going to a admit you are wrong about anything Greg, it is your nature.

Walt

Anyone been to Reno lately? There is an anti chemtrail billboard there to greet you.
you can bet some ECO (ha)non profit pissed away good OPM money for it.

Walt

Back at you Steevy,, You never answered my question. Any suckers on your cry for free rent?

Gregory

"I never said the influence of anthropogenic CO2 is larger than natural variations; doesn't everyone know that natural variation s greater?"

No, they don't. The whole point of the IPPC's "tipping points" hysteria is that positive feedbacks will drive the world's temperatures up even past the time of the Great Dying, the Permian-Triassic extinction event. Dick Alley at an AGU meeting even made the claim that the PT was due to CO2 because there wasn't anything else to explain it.

Believers in the effects of Galactic Cosmic Rays on climate might expect the PT had more to do with the PT being during an all time low GCR flux because our solar system was smack dab inbetween spiral arms of the galaxy, away from stars that had gone supernova that are the source of that cloud producing ionizing radiation.

IPCC blessed research shows there are NO catastrophic warming scenarios for any CO2 sensitivity less than 2C for a doubling of CO2. Current best research from the reality based physics side of the aisle is that sensitivity is about 1 to 1.5C, the IPCC's computer simulation based research says 1.5 to 4.5C. The latter range of the IPCC types has remained unchanged over the past 30 years despite hundreds of millions of dollars spent.

Steve, why don't you back up, dig up the link I gave to the APS climate review workshop transcript and read what Ben Santer actually says in a scientific review. Also Lindzen and Curry.

Gregory

You named zero, Steve. Soon (again, I don't think I've ever cited him thought he and Balyunas (sp)got a rotten deal a few years ago) does independent research not in some dank basement in his underwear but at the Smithsonian, and after their overhead, even if he got every other penny (and other staff gets some), that would only be about $40k a year. He'd be doing the same research even if Greenpeace gave him money (and with a $100million a year budget, that $40K is a roundoff error for them). He was even not even told of some of the grants as a condition of the grant.

You and the other attack poodles rip any scientist not getting funding from the usual sources that only fund alarmists. That's a formula for blackballing, not science.

I get it, Steve; your entire business revolves around sustainability and may take a fatal hit when the AGW hits the fan.

Walt

Gregory. Even over in Hawaii they try and blame some of their problems on sea level rise.
Somehow the concept of erosion never crosses their mind.( It just HAS to be AGW) Never mind
every time the wind blows dirt and sand go out to sea. Every good rain storm a little more "island" gets flushed away.
If the IPCC (BS)computer models were even close, Hawaii would be charcoal cinders from all the "warming". Funny how their temps have remained stable since the "chicken littles"
started with their fear mongering.
Since the ECO gang has been discredited, the same group of yappers needed a new Villon.
Now they are all amped up over the new telescope. Crap... Now Steve will just HAVE to get the SBC in on the action. He might show up at the protest line with his hand out. " I'm Mr. ECO from Calif. and here to help! Here is my bank account number to deposit "donations" into. Got a "green" telescope on the drawing board Steve?

Steven Frisch

You never said "name one i have cited" you said "Name one what [sic] is producing 'denialist' research because your designated bogymen are paying them."

I named three and proved it.

I get it Greg, you CAN"T admit you are wrong because your entire world view that government should never be the protagonist in solving problems and that the market is the most efficient way to address problems fails if AGW is real.

The same is true of George, Russ, Fish, Walt, Todd and Bill. All trapped in a world where facts challenge their 'truth'.

Steven Frisch

Greg, I think the figures on Soon were $1.5 million, with $300K going to him as salary, fact checked and published, thus open to a libel suit if wrong. I'm not sure I would trust data from a scientist who does not know the conditions of his grants :)

Walt

Stevy. You wouldn't know the truth if it bit you in the ass.
the only "truth" you care about is what lines your pockets.
Your AGW kick has been debunked every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Just like FRACKING was the cause of "burning water". Yup,, your clan swore up and down
fracking was it. Then proved wrong. ( It suck must suck when that happens)
Hell dude!! there is a burning water problem right down in Linda!! Uh,, who is fracking there?
Fracking was to blame for earthquakes. Well shit... too bad an unknown fault was found.
ya' almost had something there.

your side doesn't have any facts. None!
But do tell how you can eat or drink "pretty".
It's a GREAT idea to let needed water flow out to sea. OH... BTW,, Instead of catching six damned fish and putting them in an aquarium, it makes perfect sense to release water into the Sac. river. Enough water for 150,000 homes for a year. Not six spices,, just six fish .
ECO stupidity at it's best.

Jon

Walt, not a single thing you said is based in reality. The world has passed you by, but you don't even know it. What are you going to do in 20 years when renewables dominate the landscape? I bet you'll still be railing against the tens of millions of Priuses and electric vehicles.
Have you tried yoga sessions?

Gregory

No Steve, you don't think, and are willing to believe anything negative if it advances your politics and your company. The folks from Greenpeace doing the smear have been trying that for years and finally hit on something that got traction with journalists who think like you do.

No, Steve, I'm the not the politically driven, scientifically naive animal you are. I was a believer in the AGW story until 2007, when I watched a particularly one sided bit of propaganda, The Great Global Warming Swindle, couldn't believe the story being told in the press could be so contrary to the science and went reading the research for myself, starting with some of the scientists who were featured. TGGWS was generally true to the facts of the matter, and the research I found particularly convincing are the GCR related issues that Svensmark, Shaviv and Veizer have been instrumental bringing to the fore, with CERN's Jasper Kirkby providing credible evidence of the mechanisms involved.

It isn't just coincidental that Lovelock relates the great climate centers are scared stiff they got the science wrong... that clouds and aerosols could be running the show. It's pretty clear now they are, with the Svensmark/Shaviv/Veizer/Kirby having a string of successes, and IPCC projections continuing to diverge from reality.

Soon's grants really are all run through the Smithsonian, Soon's employer, they do get 40% for their overhead, and from what I've read, there is a possibility a civil suit for libel could result. There's a year for them to decide and you'll just have to wait unless you want to go hassle Soon yourself.

Gregory

Frisch, name the papers that:
Curry wrote only because some evil entity bought her off;
Lindzen wrote only because some evil entity bought him off;
Soon wrote only because some evil entity bought him off.

That's what you are claiming. That's what producing "'denialist' research because your designated bogymen are paying them" means.

And that is, in essence, what most 'mainstream' climate papers are written to. Young researchers know they won't get good funding if their results buck the consensus that the NSF and 'mainstream' climate journals expect, and the climategate emails included open conversations among the usual suspects where they discussed getting editors fired for publishing papers they didn't want to have to contend with at the IPCC.

The AGW meme is collapsing, whether you want to believe it or not. Enjoy the show.

Walt

LOL!! Stevey has to drag out his " jon" AKA..

Big solar... Now there is a good one Stev... uh "jon",, The Ivanpaw facility has to pipe in NG just to stay viable. Never mind all the birds it cooks on a daily basis.
Yup wind is the way to go. Those things need replacing before they even pay for themselves.
hen there is the permits that allow them to kill endangered birds.

Uh,,, how much is the replacement costs for those batteries? ( about 52% of the value of the crap can they run.) Nope they don't tell you that at the dealership.

Now waddle off. It's time you fill out the begging for money forms.

I could bury you in facts, but I know damned well you won't read them,, let alone comprehend them. So no use in wasting my time.

Walt

Gregory. These scamitists were working for a preconceived outcome. The problem is that preconceived outcome never materialized. Now the excuse factory is working overtime on damage control. That's why they are using the line, " it's getting cooler because of it getting warmer."

Gregory

Walt, all wind and solar plants must have NG or other fossil fueled alternatives spinning and ready to produce power for the grid in a fraction of a second... not just Ivanpaw, the grid would be unstable and prone to failure otherwise.

I've flown over Ivanpaw when it was operating; besides cooking endangered bird species, it's also a real eyesore.

Gregory

just found another defamation by Frisch that needs response:

"Bottom line is welfare queens like Walt and Greg need elitists like those who live in Marin and Beverly Hills to pay their freight, because they don't generate enough taxes to do it on their own"

No, Frisch, I don't get any government checks and pay taxes on my cars, my home, my income and my airplane. Nice try, jerkwad.

Still no bites on why you're arguably the holder of a trivial arts degree, eh?

Steven Frisch

Clearly you guys are having a hard time with the "welfare queen" analogy.

Of course the term welfare queen did not come from me, it came from the popular use of the meme in the 1970's to refer to people who take welfare and live higher than their means.

That is a practice some here abhor as evidenced by the aversion to pension debt.

When I referred to Walt and Greg as welfare queens I knew it would get their goat, but the fact is that Nevada County receives more in state government services than we pay in taxes, as do most rural northern California counties, and the balance is made up by counties like Marin, Alameda, Contra Costa and Monterrey.

So get on the bus guys, you pay taxes on your car, income, your home, etc....but those residents of liberal counties you love to hate pay for more than you do, and subsidize your lazy ass welfare lifestyle by paying higher tax rates on more income

Speaking of welfare queens, Greg you said you are a private pilot. You keep your plane at the Nevada County Airport (NGOO), correct? Why should the taxpayers of Nevada County and the nation subsidize your fancy ass airplane? You may pay to store your plane, but did you pay for the runways, the safety, the infrastructure to actually operate that fancy plane?

All of these decisions are about values. Of course I value civilian aviation for the benefits it brings, but I know that when the FAA pays for runaways only a very small portion of the population are using them.

It's going to be awfully hard squeezing into that cockpit with heels and a bouffant Greg.

Steven Frisch

I love how Walt just kind of lumps everything all together in a sort of stream of consciousness indictment against the ECO gang.

Of course for me the jury is still out on fracking, much to the consternation of my liberal friends, because I think that if we diverted natural gas to vehicle fuels it MIGHT be a convenient bridge fuel as we transition to electric vehicles. Of course we may just leap right over NG as a bridge, since installed solar and wind are now price competitive with NG even without subsidy.

And of course both Greg and Walt are full of it about our grid not being able to handle renewable energy and needing NG back-up.

http://www.lowcarbongrid2030.org

As far as water storage is concerned, I don't ever remember actually 'coming out' as against storage of water behind dams as a general rule, I just question the economics behind the dams proposed in the Governors water bond. Seems like MWD and ACWA question the economics too.

Regardless I am wonder Walt, who is going to pay for the collapse of the Bay Delta ecosystem when it crashes. I asked that question here a while adjoined no on answered. Why not? Do readers here even understand the consequences of a failed delta ecosystem? Do you get the idea that if we stop allowing some fresh water to go down the delta we will have huge problems with saltwater intrusion, contaminated drinking water supplies, salinity in agricultural soils and the entire food chain in the delta species will be affected?

Why do you want to put farmers and fisherman out of business? Who are you to decide that cotton and alfalfa in Kern county is worth more to society than fishing for salmon on the north coast or row crops in San Joaquin county?

Things are never quite as simple as the Walt's of the world want to make the, are they?

Jeff Pelline

Thank you Steve for keeping it "real" on this blog, which is akin to one of the fictional "lands" at Disneyland. It's "God's work," to be sure.

Bill  Tozer

I cannot believe I am going to give a thumbs up to former Gov Edmund G. "Pat" Brown. He thought big and was responsible for creating big water projects in the State of California. The Father of our current water delivery infrastructure. Of course today we are dealing with some of the shortcomings of Edmund's handiwork and some did not particularly like his outlawing of prostitution in our northern counties. Oh well. We take the good with the bad.
Today, we have Gov Brown Jr. who also thinks big and is the creator of the Fresno to Button Willows high speed Sage Brush Express Choo-Choo train. Get on board little children, there is room for many on board. Unfortunately, the new fangled rail will pass by thousands of parched acres and will make so many stops at lemonade stands along the way it will be neither fast nor non-stop. I just hope that our grandchildren don't look out the train windows upon every square inch of the formerly fruited plains to see hundreds of square miles upon hundreds of square miles of those unsightly solar panels and wind machines creating their own microclimate. Not very green if you ask me.
Ok, two different visions from Pop and Junior. Both big gov. One necessary, one not so liked, needed, or necessary.
Now, I cannot believe I am also going to say something nice about Linda Ronstat's ex-boyfriend who she dumped in Africa of all places. Jerry B. said the other day he will not be telling farmers which water wise crops to grow and which crops should not be planted. Jerry Brown said that reeks too much of "Big Brother" and he ain't going there. Amen Brother Brown, Amen! I might just start using the term Moonbeam with affection. I be a closet lib now as well as a formerly closet cross dresser. Formerly solely because I have taken my fabulous fashion statements outside to the sunny side of the street to be displayed in all its shimmering majesty.
I proudly don the title of Queen of Queens as being more man that most will ever be and more woman than any lib will ever catch.

Steven Frisch

I know this thread is about the SOJ but I could not let the charge that renewables are subsidized and fossil fuels are not, or that that is somehow OK, go unchallenged.

OK, so I did some calculating of rail freight charges per car, with each car averaging 64.2 tons (but this is based on cost per ton so the size of the load does not matter, I used 64.2 tons per carload because this is the national average). I used freight rates as reported by the Surface Transportation Board in 2010. I used a national average length of haul, which was 900 miles. The average carload of agricultural product freight costs the shipper $2,809.00. The average carload of consumer goods is a little lower, about $2,525.00. The average carload of coal is about $975.00. The rate for coal is set by the STB based on federal legislation that gives coal a break on the price charged by shippers. In addition a portion of the shipping price can be deducted from corporate taxes paid by coal companies if they manage their own shipping, so corporate income tax rates are reduced on these companies.

The Association of American Railroads describes, “In 2009, coal accounted for 47 percent of tonnage and 25 percent of revenue for U.S. railroads.”

Wyoming coal (amongst the cheapest) costs $0.23 per ton to mine but $0.47 delivered to the Midwest. (That does not necessarily mean the cost of shipping doubles the price of coal because in the Midwest shipping by barge is much cheaper)

Now an astute capitalist would say, “see they are the biggest customer”, but actually these shipments are split up between thousands of different jobbers, power plants, and customers, so this is not a function of buying in bulk; besides the reason rates are regulated is so that railroads can not charge smaller customers too much in relation to larger customers to avoid monopoly. Remember the progressive era when we actually cared about the little guys?

Now, you tell me how it is not a subsidy to charge less to ship coal than to ship food, or consumer goods for that matter, and how that does not equate to consumers paying more for food and consumer goods to subsidize lower prices for electricity from coal fired power plants?

And if we are subsidizing shipping coal at this level and we eliminated the subsidy what would it mean for the price competitiveness of renewable energy.

Please remember this does not include the other negative externalities of coal production: human health, water quality and other environmental impacts, worker health and safety etc.

fish

Posted by: Jeff Pelline | 20 April 2015 at 06:16 AM


Shouldn't you be out waiting for the man from Hostess?

Don Bessee

Now lets not feed the troll who's name we will not speak. Its bad enough his shill Frisch is stinking up the place with his liberal sputum. Coal in 2010 bears no relationship to now. 0 has succeeded in gutting the coal industry. Take it to the sandbox where it belong stevie.

Jon

Steve, you asked Walt about the Bay Delta ecosystem. I hate to add more work, and I know its embarrassing for him- but for his benefit you're going to have to define and describe the term ECOSYSTEM. Reading his rambling simplistic scribes, its clear he has no idea what you mean, nor how complex an ecosystem can be.

Gregory

Steve, I accept your forfeit on the previous line of argument. Thank you for trying to play. Now Jeff is here, another holder of a trivial arts degree, so you at least have some company.

My fancy ass single engine airplane first flew during LBJ's presidency, is fuel efficient at 170 mph, all it really needs is a simple grass strip and cost me less than what the Bentley or the It's largely taxes on aviation fuels that provide airport improvements, and everyone benefits from the airport. It was first built on donated land (that will revert to the Litton family if it is decommissioned) because of the economic benefits to all, including Litton and the Grass Valley Group. Before it was expanded with the Litton land, it was a smaller strip that the mines used to fly gold out, not to mention other GA aircraft.

GA airports are used for transportation for business, for pleasure, and for emergency services. Air ambulances, law enforcement, surveying, Fire suppression. Everyone benefits. I suppose it galls you that it's a mile of road you can't use without chartering an airplane, begging a ride or needing an air ambulance ride out after you shoot yourself in the foot, but I'll probably never use the road by your house that my taxes helped pay for, either.

Now, remembering I'm not a SoJ supporter, let's consider that we have the government the coastal cities want because they have the votes, and the situation is not unlike that in aviation (no, "NGOO" is not the Grass Valley airport... in fact, no airport has an N prefix) where there is an issue over who pays for enroute air traffic control services. Imagine a dinner meeting at a truly hoity-toity steakhouse, with fat carnivore airlines who like their fine wines, and skinny teetotaling GA vegetarians who can only eat the dinner salads, but the carnivores, with more votes, get everything they desire and expect everyone to pitch in equally for the check.

I don't want or need the government designed to meet the desires of Planet Frisco and the current fat cat public employee unions. Tell me, how much does Frisco pay for the continuing rape of the Hetch Hetchy? Do they actually pay market rates for all the high quality water they need? Shouldn't Frisco flush away its water for the sake of the snail darter?

It's so nice the carbonphobes think they can design a working grid without backup power generation. Good luck with that. The current grid needs backups; perhaps someday, if we are all willing to be in the dark some of the time, folks will put up with the lives you think they should leave bu once the AGW scare goes away, don't expect the sheeple to put up with your schemes.

Can't play more, play nice while I'm gone.

Bonnie McGuire

Todd, you're right on regarding those being put out of work by the gov activist shutting down the timber industry (natural resources) and then hiring and spending money on those to retrain people to do something else for a living. We were in the trucking business for around 43 years hauling all kinds of commodities. Mel liked hauling logs because he could be home instead of being away all over the U.S. Consequently we received publications from the truckers organization, and from Loggers World publication that kept us up on what was going on. Loggers World told the story about a large lumber company in Montana that was forced into court by the environmentalists every time the U.S. Forest Service granted them a permit to cut timber. The company decided to quit doing business because it wasn't worth the continual expensive war. 400 men were then out of a job. Then the Forest Service declared they had around 400 job openings....but these had to be filled by Mexican emigrants. Local men qualifying for gov job retraining didn't matter.

Gregory

Fixing up two sentences that got mangled:

"...all it really needs is a simple grass strip and cost me less than what the Bentley or the Tesla I was stuck behind recently go for. It's largely taxes on aviation fuels that provide airport improvements, and everyone benefits from the airport."

Perhaps I should also point out to the coercive utopian Friscoids here that it's guys like me and George who actually did the work that created the value that fuels the spending you are hooked on.

Fewer and fewer people believe the carbon scare. It's going away but we have years of screaming and name calling before the capitulation can be expected. Payback will be a bitch.

Steven Frisch

Coal price looks pretty stable to me Don...of course this is not measured in the same units I measured it in but you get the picture...

http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=14631

http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=19491

You guys need a research wing....

Steven Frisch

Posted by: Bonnie McGuire | 20 April 2015 at 11:24 AM

Yes, I am really sure the USFS in Montana said they could only fill 400 job openings with 'Mexican emigrants.'

Jon

oh come on Steve, it was a story in LOGGERS WORLD!

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