Supes hear State of Jefferson prezo (updated 18may15)

George Rebane

This afternoon the Nevada County Supervisors heard a presentation on the State of Jefferson by the movement's local steering committee.  It was followed by public comment from both pro and con residents of our county.  I made the following statement during the public comment segment.

I too want to thank you for hearing from the State of Jefferson steering committee.  I am a proponent of advancing this historical experiment in constitutional self-government.  It is indisputable that the voices and values of rural counties have been largely ignored in many state houses.  Until recently these counties have been resigned to their second class status by staying the same ol’ same ol’ course.  But to more of us, continuing to follow Rodney King’s appeal to ‘just get along’ brings to mind a famous man’s definition of insanity.

We realize that today the SoJ movement is still new, not well understood, and therefore opposed by more than the usual collectivists whose historical aim has always been to increase the size of Leviathan under which we labor today.  For them the creation of smaller and more like-minded jurisdictions such as SoJ is counter to the global unification goal they hold dear.

It also appears that our Nevada County government staff has taken a strong stand against SoJ by suggesting that when compared to other so-called SoJ counties in northern California, our county stands out as the best while still ‘working together with’ Sacramento.  However, to me the staff’s data tables tell a different and more illuminating tale.  Historically these rural counties have enjoyed productive economies based on agriculture, timber, mining, and recreation.  But that was before Washington and Sacramento unleashed their massive bureaucratic assault, enforcing on them versions of dubious and scientifically unsupported bromides that promise to save the environment and stop manmade global warming.

Today the years of buckling under diktats from the likes of the EPA, CARB, Water Resources Board, and other government agencies have devastated the region’s economies and resulted in the dire statistics that our county staff has assembled.  Nevada County’s placement at the top of that sorry heap has less to do with any bounty from Sacramento, than with our fortunate proximity to a large urban corridor, and our historical but now diminishing industrial base.  In short, the data you have been presented is simply a detailed epitaph in the making for rural counties that have gone along to get along with Leviathan, only to reap a dismal reward for their cooperation.

To my mind the only remaining viable alternative to SoJ is our joining or even leading the growing national movement to restore ‘permissionless innovation’ by simply adopting ‘Just Say NO!’ as a response to insane and inane regulations.  As a fortuitous coincidence, today is the release date of By the People: Rebuilding Liberty Without Permission from the celebrated political scientist and sociologist Charles Murray.  This book is a ‘how to’ manual for America’s small businesses and political jurisdictions going viral to effectively resist and turn back regulations which are “pointless, stupid, and tyrannical”.  It contains a detailed plan of how Americans can start saying NO!, one regulation at a time.  And in the event you missed Murray’s nationally published essay on the subject this weekend, I will gladly email you the link.  Gentlemen, I suggest that change for the better is afoot across this land. 

Finally, all the arguments against SoJ rest on stasist projections.  Stasism is the belief that we can see tomorrow only through the lens of current practices kept rigidly unchanged.  Its corollary is ‘if it hasn't been done, it can't be done’.  But proponents of the State of Jefferson believe that in this most exceptional country the world has ever seen, the new and the never-been-tried has always served as a beacon to innovation, enterprise, and in the end, a better life.  Thank you.

[update]  The BoS session on SoJ lasted almost exactly two hours; way too short of a time to get everything aired.  But hopefully, the Supes will take a deeper look at the wisdom of forming the State of Jefferson.  Their next step would be to agree to a resolution or declaration in support of doing more discovery about SoJ, a move which should eventually make Nevada County a participant in the conversation on how to approach Sacramento on the matter, and what course to take if Sacramento blows us off.

The progressives’ mantra of financial infeasibility is a stasist red herring that may persuade the low information type voters (and politicians).  But an important factor that did not get more mention beyond my comment is that SoJ and ‘Just say NO!’ can now advance from a national awareness to a national movement.  Unfortunately all of today’s commenters  – including some who shared substantial autobiographies to frame their feelings –  focused on an extremely parochial perspective that posed the SoJ initiative in a vacuum relating only to northern California rural counties, as if such experiences about representation and self-determination were not shared by the rest of the country.

It is my strong belief that SoJ in California will succeed only to the extent that it can connect with other such movements in America, and in the process give and draw strength from the national initiatives, be they for the formation of new states or aggressive civil disobedience against pointless, stupid, and tyrannical regulations.  If SoJ decides to fly solo into the assured maelstrom of progressive resistance, it will fail on all counts.  If it joins arms with such movements across the country, the chances for increasing the number of states in the union, or at least achieving significant regulatory rollback, will increase sufficiently to make the enterprise a betting man’s game.

Kudos to Board chairman Ed Scofield and the supervisors for running a model town hall session where all had a chance to hear from the State of Jefferson promoters and the public who also wanted their voices heard.  God bless us, we are still America!

[18may15 update]  More people have weighed in on last Tuesday's SoJ presentation to the BoS.  Mr George Boardman, columnist for The Union who frequents these pages, offered his thoughts in the newspaper's 18may15 edition (here).  While correctly identifying Nevada County as the potential Marin County of the new SoJ, he succumbed to the stasist (q.v.) view of how the remainder of the new state would fare economically.  Generating stasist projections is a simple, comfortable, and readily communicable enterprise, but also overwhelmingly error prone and a hard addiction to shed.

I also received an email from Mr Eduard (Eddie) Garcia, chairman of the NC SoJ steering committee, with his attached thoughts on last week's event and its echoes.  I believe he has submitted them to The Union which could have productively paired the two viewpoints, but apparently chose not to.  In any event, Mr Garcia's unedited piece follows.

OBSERVATIONS ON THE MAY 12^TH PRESENTATION TO THE BOS

Last Tuesday, May 12^th, the Board of Supervisors listened to a presentation about the State of Jefferson movement.  By The Union’s account, over 250 people attended the presentation.  The meeting was presided by the Chair of the Board, Supervisor Ed Scofield, who, very even-handedly, allowed  proponents and opponents of the State of Jefferson to express their opinions.

The opposition to a new state seems to share its concerns with the State of Jefferson proponents that the rural counties of Northern California do not have a voice in our State Legislature.

However, there is a disagreement on what should be the remedy to our lack of representation.  The  opposition’s solution seems to fit perfectly a definition of insanity: keep doing the same thing over and over expecting different results!

The opposition also bases their position largely in their belief that the State of Jefferson is not financially sustainable.  They are not providing any data to support that belief.  We, on the other hand, have submitted studies that show the absolute financial viability of the future 51^st state.  I would like to invite our opposition to a public discussion on this issue at which time data could be examined in depth to clarify this issue.  Since this issue seems to also be of great concern to our Board of Supervisors and our county’s CEO, it would be very informative if our Board of Supervisors would schedule a hearing to have both sides present their case for discussion.

The CEO of our county seems to have jumped into the fray by including a document entitled “Various Comparisons with Jefferson Counties” in his May 8^th weekly Friday Memo.  In it he compares Nevada County to eight selected counties out of the twenty that are working to become the 51^st state.  In these comparisons, Nevada County comes out on top in most criteria.  That is no surprise since our BOS and the CEO are doing a great job administering our county.  The implication of these comparisons would seem to be that Nevada County should not become a part of the new state.  However the CEO did not attend the presentation, when he might have had any questions answered.  It would have been more informative if all 20 counties under consideration would have been included in the comparison.

One does have to question what prompted our CEO to publish such a document four days ahead of the State of Jefferson presentation.  While the CEO’s office does a great job of administering our county, perhaps it would have been more appropriate to listen to the grassroots presentation and ask questions if necessary, rather than issue an incomplete document.

While Mr. Haffey is perfectly free to offer his personal opinion, one would question the motivation behind publishing an “opinion” as the CEO of our county.

One last observation on the May 12^th meeting.  At one point, it was requested that the opponents to the SOJ raise their hands followed by a request that the supporters raise theirs.  By my humble, conservative estimate the supporters’ hands far outnumbered the opponents’!

Comments

[Jon]

From what I saw and heard, its basically this in my reading:

-Representation above all else. Financial projections be damned.
-Come on guys-can we try this leap of faith? Lets just try cutting, mining and drilling our way to prosperity without any State regulations or taxes to impede us. Forget about non-government forces that affect the viability of these industries. Everyone grab a hardhat, a saw, or a shovel and get to work. Forget about the Fed regulations. Maybe we can nullify them anyway.
-Supervisors- can we at least give this a shot? Maybe we can go back to CA if it doesn't work.
-Forget about the majority of the Nevada County population who like living in CA.

[George Rebane]

Jon 357pm - We were clearly at different events; with the great emphasis on our having no effective representation, I heard none of those things.

[Jon]

I watched via video feed. Did not see your statement.
My first bullet point is utterly accurate. The others could easily be surmised from the presentations I saw after 1:30. It was clear that there are major questions about the financial viability of the endeavor. Not a single solid financial reason to make the move, only the Patrick Henry type arguments today.

[Account Deleted]

"Everyone grab a hardhat, a saw, or a shovel and get to work."
Jon seems to think that's a bad thing.
"Financial projections be damned."
Whose projections?
"..without any State regulations or taxes to impede us"
Citation?
"It was clear that there are major questions about the financial viability of the endeavor."
Sounds like the whole state of California.
"...only the Patrick Henry type arguments today."
Well, he was correct - you have something better?

[George Rebane]

Jon 410pm - Actually, the financial factors are very intriguing because they reflect on similar movements across the country. There are enormous efficiencies to be gained when counties don't have to send certain taxes to their state capitol to have a fraction of them returned under 'pointless, stupid, and tyrannical' strictures on how these monies are to be used. Progressives are completely blind to the workings of such inefficiencies.

[Barry Pruett]

It was a nice presentation, and I agree with your comments which I missed when I went back to work. Maggie also enjoyed listening to "Safari Eddie," as she calls him. An educational presentation for a child seeing firsthand the virtues of petitioning one's government for redress.

[Walt]

Seems I'm already "armed" with those tools.(and safety equipment)
Yes, you CAN dig and saw your way to prosperity. What the Hell built America ( and Grass Valley, and Nevada City) in the first place? It was government regulations and law the slammed on those breaks.(fact) Then the stoned hippie showed up from Frisco and started humping knotholes in the trees. ( then invited friends of "this and that")
First they yapped about " NO MINE in the middle of TOWN!!!" Now they yap " NO MINE in the BUSHES!!!" " No mine ANYWHERE for that matter".
HELL!! Now they fine excuses to stop salvage logging, after the catastrophic wild fires, they helped create.( Nope,, can't thin the forests) " For the critters! It's it's own ECO system!"

[Don Bessee]

We often hear of the liberals rose colored glasses, in the sock puppets case here that appears to include a lefty hearing filter too! LOL In a state that is taking in more money than ever and more than they know what to do with (like pay debts to counties or reduce overall debts) it is amazing the answer for everything is more money and more workers. I think everyone should understand the part about the sheer number of state workers and their impacts on elections beyond the obvious union money they bring to the table thru mandatory dues.

[George Rebane]

I should mention that Norm Sauer's public comment included a report on the little known fact that government agencies that control government lands in state and county jurisdictions get to vote a prescribed tally of votes that is entered into the overall vote count with legitimate voters. In low turnout elections, such agencies carry the day, and it is usually for higher taxes and bigger government.

[Don Bessee]

Dr. R, how does that play into the liberal narrative that corporations are not people in spite of the fact they are owned by people and pension funds that want a voice to protect their interests? The issue Norm brought up needs a bigger spotlight on it. Hey Norm, Editorial time!

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: George Rebane | 12 May 2015 at 07:10 PM

Could you ask Norm Sauer to be more specific about his contention that "that government agencies that control government lands in state and county jurisdictions get to vote a prescribed tally of votes that is entered into the overall vote.."

[Todd Juvinall]

If corporations pay taxes wouldn't that indicate certain "rights". Taxation without representation could be alleged if they were not granted those rights under Citizens. So the left appears to not only want the corporations to pay taxes and take away their only "right" in an election and that is donating money.

[Jon]

I wish someone would present a viable financial strategy, with a realistic pro-forma for this new supposed state. For a group aligned with the fiscally-driven Tea Party, the financials remain sadly lacking amongst all the nostalgia, ranting and inflexible obsession with the vision of America as it was in 1787. Have no idea what some of these rants refer to in relation to Jefferson.

Walt, my advice is to relax and roll with things. We residents in these parts are a mix of suburban and rural, quite unique in CA. If your favorite industry of mining can be permitted outside of residential areas. go for it! Not many people have, or are interested, or can pull it off. Maybe you should read about Sutter Gold, a fully permitted mine, given the full go ahead, that is in deep doo-doo today down in the Amador gold area, supposedly rich in mineral wealth. Cannot blame the CA regulations for that fiasco. Seriously Walt, your frustration that we can't go back to 1935 will literally kill you if you let it, blood pressure and all.

[Barry Pruett]

Steve: I would like to hear more about that too.

[George Rebane]

Re Norm Sauer's comment - have emailed him to request more specifics about the report he cited.

[Walt]

WOW!! Your pulling a Nevada City trick.. " change the subject". ( you sure bailed on the other but fast)
I'm not going to bother with giving you the history of the snuffing of mining at the Gov. hand. In short, fixing the price of gold at well below the cost of mining. Other things played a big role as well. ( all Gov.)
Since your a city flatlander you really don't know what went on up here ( nor do you really care) and continues today. ( more local stuff)

Who was it that bitched about Fish posting "up here"? How bout chastising one of your own for the same "offence". ( Naaaa,, not going to happen)

Ya' see "jon",,, your sticking your city slicker nose where it doesn't belong. You don't need to worry about a mine popping up in your cement jungle. ( but what MADE that jungle came from a mine.... Think about that. from that computer, to the floor you walk on ( that would be a cement slab no doubt) It all came from the ground, one way or another, and someone like me dug it up.
Where did the lumber come from that keeps the rain off your head? It's didn't magically appear at Home Depot. And yes the tar shingles also came from a hole in the ground.

[Don Bessee]

I wish 'jon' would be go relax and roll another one. Cant blame the regulations blah blah blah, what a bunch of slavish devotion to the man. Clearly not a student of history. I am surprised he has not trotted out the lets compare mesa scores as if he had one.

[Walt]

The two biggest pluses of the creation of SoJ is getting out of the cluchs of CARB and CAL. Waterboard.

[Don Bessee]

Dr. R you may be on the 0 list. The prez just said "We are going to have to change how the media reports" when referring to news sources. Sounds like the follow on to the FEC claiming jurisdiction over online speech.

[Jon]

Don Bessee, haven't rolled one in 30+ years. Only did it then for social reasons. Wine and meditation much more relaxing. NO, you cannot blame regulations for the predictable fiasco that is the so-called Sutter Gold Lincoln mine. Clearly not a student of deceptive business practices these outfits employ.

[Jon]

Don, a mesa score? It is a measure of calcium. Please elaborate further. Thanks.

[Patricia Smith]

I am trying to keep an open mind about forming the State of Jefferson, but it seems like an impossibly long shot that the legislative body that (you say) doesn't represent you, would vote in favor of succession. As the patron saint of lost causes, I understand your frustrations, but not the remedy. The easiest method of acheiving your goal would be to put it directly in the hands of the citizens through a voter's initiative. Perhaps you could reason with So Cal voters that it is in their best interest to break free from Nor Cal. Then assuming you succeed, it would still have to be ratified by 3/4 of the states. Good luck!

I also want more information about government agencies having a proscribed number of votes. It's hard to believe that this is possible (but who would have thought that the NSA is spying on our every move)? It reminds me of a Mark twain quote, "If voting made any difference, they would never let us do it."

[George Rebane]

PatriciaS 848am - Yes, it is a long shot, but it's the only shot we have going. Keep it California's counter to SoJ is beyond inane - all of their prescriptions call for doing the same thing, which hasn't worked for decades and has brought on the current state of affairs. And a statewide voter initiative is a sure way to loose; why would soCal give up control of the norCal resources that cost them literally nothing That we get more than we give is BS on the face of it. Were that so, then cash strapped Sacramento would be helping to cut us loose and create SoJ.

I outlined the only approach that has a chance, and that is becoming a very large burr under Sac's blanket. The 'Just say NO!' campaign I have been recommending, and now introduced nationally by Murray, is our best strategy. The representation and regulatory rollback issues must be joined at the hip. I will expand more on that.

[George Boardman]

You and one other speaker criticized county CEO Rick Haffey for his Friday memo comparing Nevada County with our neighbors to the north, suggesting he is part of an effort to torpedo SoJ.

I think you need to cast a wider net. Haffey has shown an abundance of caution over the years and would never buck any of the supes in public on his own. I suspect the memo was requested by a supervisor who opposes SoJ but doesn't want to catch any flak from its supporters.

I'm also willing to bet there are at least two other "no" votes on the board.

[George Rebane]

GeorgeB 929am - While Rick Haffey has not hidden his contempt for the SoJ initiative, you may be absolutely right about the 'higher provenance' of those comparative data tables. Nate has made no secret of his opposition to SoJ (I was amused by his body language yesterday - utter disdain) and finding two more like-minded supes is definitely not beyond the pale.

This BoS prides itself in knowing the ropes as they are now strung by Sacramento, and navigating the county through that intricate web with the least damage to themselves. The one thing we can be sure of is that our county's 'comply/confront switch' is permanently toggled in 'comply'.

[Brad C.]

What I found hopeful as I watched the presentation is that there are citizens from multiple political and philosophical persuasions out there who are actively interested in changing how we are taxed and regulated.
I see a glimmer of a grassroots movement that many can join in that "just says no" and works to get things changed for the better and transcends the usual divide.

[George Rebane]

BradC 1059am - Good words, and agreed.

[George Rebane]

Re Norm Sauer's remarks to the BoS on govt agency voting. Norm is a bit web shy so he emailed me his response to StevenF's 801pm and BarryP's 834pm requests to amplify. He sent me the following entitled 'Govt votes overwhelm People' -

Today, Wednesday, May 13, 2015 is the final day of voting in the Marin/Sonoma Mosquito and Vector Control District fee election. Sounds boring until you consider how bizarre it really is.

The District seeks to impose a $12 per real property parcel fee in both counties. But not just property owners in those counties will cast ballots.

The bizarre takes us to Proposition 218 passed in 1997. The laudable purpose of the measure was to guarantee the right to vote to property owners on local service fee increases. Prop. 218’s theory is the tax burden is allocated according to the benefit provided to each parcel from the mosquito control service funded. And, because Prop. 218 eliminates the exemption of government property from service assessments or fees, every governmental agency in Marin and Sonoma Counties is allowed to cast ballots.

A very undemocratic oddity deviating from the “one man, one vote” Supreme Court mandate resulted as an unintended consequence of Prop. 218. Namely, the largest single block of votes in the mosquito district fee election is cast by government.

While homeowners get $12 worth of ballots per parcel, private large-scale landowners get hundreds of votes. The allocation of votes is based on the mosquito district’s hard-to-fathom engineer’s report. The report is an impenetrable procedure utterly lacking in transparency. It emerges that Marin County government is assigned 6,211 worth of ballots while the federal government is allocated 9,167 ballots. Every unincorporated city in the two-county district will also vote, their ballots totaling 12,840 votes.

Even more bizarre, the Marin County Board of Supervisors allowed different department heads to vote their ballots. It is a safe bet most ballots cast by government agencies were “yes” to pass the parcel tax.

[Walt]

"Share voting" is what I would call it. Just like the number of shares one holds in any given business. Just like the 546 votes I have in one particular gun maker, when the CEO, and board of directors comes up for election.

Yup, and state, county, and city have PLENTY of real estate by the parcel to tip the scales . If things look like they are no going their way, a walk down the hall to the assessors office, and start chopping up gov. land into the needed parcels. The land will never be sold so no one would be the wiser. They are just lines on an "in house" map.

[joe smith]

GR 12:18
Mostly cut, blend and paste from the Marin Independent Journal http://www.marinij.com/opinion/20150414/dick-spotswood-mosquito-fee-vote-is-a-bizarre-election
The irony of this is that the seeds of Prop 218 were germinated in Marin County. The pigeons have come home. It is a half baked proposition that has many, many holes in it that need to be challenged.

[George Rebane]

joes 536pm - I'm not sure what your point is re Norm Sauer's report. You sound as if you were expecting Sauer to fabricate something unrealized and unreported. Are you contending what was reported?

[joe smith]

Not at all GR. I side with Norm on this 100%. I think though, that Dick deserves credit for the heavy lifting on the reporting.

[Walt]

This revelation sure took the wind out of the sails of those trying to paint the SoJ people as a bunch of kooks. Score 1 for our side.

[Account Deleted]

from jon - "I wish someone would present a viable financial strategy, with a realistic pro-forma for this new supposed state."
I love it when libs start to act all financially conservative. Doesn't bother jon in the least that the current state of Kali is spending it's way into ruin.
The SoJ has water. Kali doesn't. Especially SoCal. What part of that equation is so hard to understand?
Sadly, that is also the reason the SoJ will not happen.
I do wish the SoJ well, but it will be as if Estonia politely asked the USSR if they could have their leave.

[Walt]

Rio Linda "jon" fails to consider money is already here, and will have the ability to make plenty more once the overlords down in SAC. stop getting their tribute payments.
No CARB or Ca. water thieves to block progress. An end to some state tree hugger stopping a good project because of a "vernal pool". ( a depression in the ground where a rotted stump used to be.)
Heck. Just maybe the SoJ can resend the "wild and scenic" designation of the Yuba, and a new water retention aria can be built. Maybe even more than one. Look at the lives that would be saved just from drownings alone. ( yes LIBS,, "If it saves ONE life"..)
On average 5 people drown getting caught under the rocks down at the 49 bridge every year.

As I said before, you can't eat or drink pretty.

[Don Bessee]

joe Smith = jon = the usual suspects = trolls = (insert your best giggle here)

[Jon]

Gotta love it when the supposed fiscal experts rely on simplistic rhetoric in place of good old sharpened-pencil analysis. There remains no reasonable financial analysis of a SOJ move, scrutinized line item by line item. Sorry Scott, the arrogant Dirty Harry approach using your water example isn't going to cut it here. Nevada County is going to want more than "what is so hard to understand" assurances. We folks here in Nevada County have a hell of lot more in common with the Sacramento region than we do with the Modoc or Siskiyou economies. SOJ is not going to happen in Nevada County. But I also sincerely wish Modoc County and the like well, as it is undeniable that they are far removed from the decision makers in Sactown, and share little in common with the rest of California.

As for Walt, I remain baffled by his rants. I will say that the Wild and Scenic designation for the Yuba was a great economic driver for our County. You cannot eat or drink pretty as Walt is so fond to say, but you can take it to the bank with the millions of visitors that have circulated many millions of dollars in our communities.

[Polly Parrot]

Actually Don, we all know that you're a number of different posters here, including joe Smith, jon and you take about rolling one, maybe we should speak with the guy who sells you your pot, to see how much you've been partaking lately.....?

HYPOCRITE!

[Patricia Smith]

George, can you find out who Polly Parrot is? Bessee has alleged that I'm posting under this fictious name, but I know it's not me, so who is it? The only one who shares a thumbprint with Polly is Fish, but he has denied that he is the secret poster too. What gives? Why can people post fictitiously on your blog? If they don't have the guts to say their piece using their own name, they should keep quiet.

[Ben Emery]

George R. 13 May 2015 at 10:27 AM

"This BoS prides itself in knowing the ropes as they are now strung by Sacramento, and navigating the county through that intricate web with the least damage to themselves. The one thing we can be sure of is that our county's 'comply/confront switch' is permanently toggled in 'comply'."

This is right on the money. The state has strings attached to funding that counties totally rely on. It is a way to stifle any dissent from the counties. The same goes for the states and federal government. The highway/ interstate funds is a perfectly example of it.

You can have your dissent but you'll lose much relied on funding for your region/ state. Very few sitting politicians want to be known for losing existing funds due to their actions.

On an other note. Please stop calling everything left of your positions "progressive". The progressives in the state of California want regional control, regional economies, public banking, local investment, ect.... That is why progressives generally oppose and protest much of the federal government. Progressives and principled conservatives have lots in common. If you would just take the blinders off you would realize it.

[fish]

Please stop calling everything left of your positions "progressive". The progressives in the state of California want regional control, regional economies, public banking, local investment, ect.... That is why progressives generally oppose and protest much of the federal government. Progressives and principled conservatives have lots in common. If you would just take the blinders off you would realize it.

...and right on cue, another "No True Scotsman" from Ben.

[Todd Juvinall]

Sorry Ben Emery, I don't say "progressive" I call it liberalism. Those on the left try words ALA Orwell's 1984 and see what sticks. You are a liberal and really have little in common with the "conservatives". I do enjoy this mental mastur***** you toss out though. Good comedy.

[George Rebane]

BenE 731am - I understand your concern for correct labeling. I use the label 'progressives' to identify (accuse?) people who do, in fact, promote a bigger Leviathan. Why? Because the two such major proponents, Hillary and Obama, continually label themselves and their policies as progressive. They should know.

PatriciaS 729am - PollyP is a unique commenter, and is not fish. I allow sackheads to post because it has become the universal web culture to allow people to use handles that maintain their anonymity while also maintaining a consistent identity as they participate in comment threads. I'm doing my best to minimize the ad hominems, especially by named commenters against named commenters. But I agree, everyone should stand by their opinions, and kudos to those with the courage to do so.

[steve frisch]

Posted by: George Rebane | 13 May 2015 at 12:18 PM

George, thanks for tracking down that response from Mr. Sauer. As I suspected the comment, "that government agencies that control government lands in state and county jurisdictions get to vote a prescribed tally of votes that is entered into the overall vote.." is actually to be much more narrowly interpreted to mean that in cases where government owns land, and that land is subject to an assessment fee election, the government as a landowner being assessed a fee is a eligible to vote in the election.

The statement from Mr. Sauer is vague, and without that caveat would imply that the government can vote in any election, which is clearly not true.

[Patricia Smith]

Thanks for trying to clarify the Polly Parrot question George. But since you stated that Fish is not Polly, can you also state categorically that I am not Polly either? I guess we will have to see if Polly is willing to reveal "her" identity. I have no respect for anyone that makes snide comments but doesn't have the courage of their convictions to be identified. What character!!

For the record, Don Bessee and I are political foes, but I don't like it when someone makes unsupported claims against anyone - even Bessee. So whoever is Polly, please substantiate your claims or shut the heck up.

[Walt]

" I will say that the Wild and Scenic designation for the Yuba was a great economic driver for our County. You cannot eat or drink pretty as Walt is so fond to say, but you can take it to the bank with the millions of visitors that have circulated many millions of dollars in our communities."
Post your facts. Show us the money.
If it's "all about the money", a lake is liquid gold. From people coming to recreate in droves ( those rich city folk with boats) fisherman from all over, and the revenue generation from the cops busting kids there to watch the submarine races in the middle of the night.
Then comes the sale of water and hydro electric ( that would be GREEN POWER,,, "jon")
That would bring in plenty more greenbacks than what a few nature boys and gals would bring in on a drive through day trip.

First you say you live "in the city",, now you claim to "live up here".
So which one is the lie?

[Jon]

Not going to debate the universally agreed upon positive impact from the Yuba Wild and Scenic designation. Go ask the State Parks, SYRCL, or any of the Republican Supervisors within its footprint. Go ask any of the thousands of attendees of the Wild and Scenic festivals, or the small business owners in town who benefit.

As to your last point- you must be imagining things.

[George Rebane]

Administrivia - for the record, Patricia Smith is not Polly Parrot.

[Larry Wirth]

Steven F @9:12

So it's all good, since it's limited in scope? Small problem: the government employees voting for the tax aren't the ones who will be paying it, it'll be the opposition who are outvoted by giving the government "voters" two votes.

One person, one vote works for me. L

[Walt]

LOL! "jonny",, confuse a "festival" with a brush covered canyon, then dodge the part about getting caught in a fib. "you must be imagining things". Really? Short term memory loss?
Forget our little conversation on solar, and your "hobby garden"? Then in your midnight rant, imply you live "up here".

Funny thing about city slickers. They live "down there" yet like to tell "hill people" what to do. Those city folk sure like to take OUR water, but demand "we" don't build any dams so on the rare occasion they decide to take a drive, they might have something "pretty" to look at.
Do city people have their backyard pools open for anyone to use? (nope),, Uh,, where did the water come from to fill it?

[Jon]

Walt, you seriously are delusional, and very mistaken.

[Todd Juvinall]

Walt, Wild and Scenic is a economic bust except in one area. The "grants" of taxpayer money to do the things the landowners used to do for free. A bunch of hippies attending the local "smokefest" of goofy art here is putting little into the coffers of the business people here.

I recall the debate on Wild and Scenic in the 90's as the proponents told us how many people were using the river and how WandS would attract so many more. Then the river got algae blooms after they took over! Nothing the private owners of the lands would do could be as crappy as the WandS fiasco for Nevada County. What a hoot!

[Todd Juvinall]

Oops left out the fact that Izzy Martin went to Byron Sher, a State Senator from the Bay area to carry the WandS because it was opposed by our own legislators and populace. That's how it started sort of like ObamaCare later. No support from the folks but a lot from the libs. It is a disaster for the county. I recall the algae blooms actually caused the river access to be shut down. What did they do to the Yuba? Jeeze, we all used to swim in it until the libs got their hands on it.

[Bonnie McGuire]

Yeah Izzy bypassed our reps to get what she and her cohorts wanted...by hook or crook. Kinda think the algae was caused by lotsa pee in low, warm water. And even more obvious has been the necessity to clean up all the trash left behind by environmentally concerned people enjoying the river. Amazing.

[Account Deleted]

from jon - "the arrogant Dirty Harry approach using your water example isn't going to cut it here."
What's Dirty Harry got to do with it? SoJ would have an abundance of water. The rest of Kali would not. As it is, LA is currently stealing water it has no legal right to from the Colorado. Supply and demand, my friend. They would need SoJ water and would have to start paying for it. Have you ever been to a store, jon? You have money and they have something you want. You pay them money and then you get the item from the store that you desire. When you go shopping, do you consider the people at the store to have a arrogant, Dirty Harry attitude?
Which takes us back to my point about how Kali knows this and is not about to let their 'source' of free water go away.

[Walt]

Yes, I remember those days well. Dizzy Izzy had to carpetbag to points South to stick it to Nev. Co. I guess they count the parking tickets issued for illegal parking as "income",
as well as the arrests for drugs and alcohol down at "the river". All money makers.

"jon" has yet to prove his "millions" in any way shape or form. All that land was forked over to the state to control.

Growing up here, Bridgeport was a great place to go. Now it's a zoo on a hot day.
And not the "money spending" kind of people go there. It's rude, mouthy, idiots from the valley.

"jon" REALLY needs to support his "millions" claim. ( maybe if he added it up from the past 15 years, he might break a million) That's a lot of gas and beer,, and maybe a "weedman" in any given parking lot.

[Todd Juvinall]

Apparently some guy named Bishop didn't know there are and/or were, private landowners along the river. Jeeze are these people educated at all?

[Walt]

Yes, Todd,, they got arm twisted... uh, "willing sell/willing buyer". ( We can make things REALLY difficult for ya')

[Don Bessee]

Patty, sorry I thought you were polly parrot. That still leave the matter of my pissy pit bull panting for a play date with polly parrot and if there are any pieces of polly parrot left we can prepare polly parrot pot pie!

[Patricia Smith]

Don, your comment proves you aren't smoking weed. That's a tongue twister if I ever heard one. Apology accepted.

[Jon]

Scott, good luck convincing our BOS of the merits of SOJ based on the water theory. Reason NevCo will never support SOJ is because there never will/never can be a solid pro-forma presented to a Board with a very good history of fiscal discipline.

[Jon]

Walt, sorry you hate visitors to Nevada County partaking in our State Park activities spending their money here, and wanting to return again. How rude is that? You'd rather we discourage Bay Area visitors and their money?

[Jon]

sorry Walt, I just re-read your rants about visitors to Bridgeport. You would prefer Bay Area types with money and don't like mouthy, trashy idiots from the Central Valley. Or something. Gotcha. Just classy, educated types like yourself.

[Walt]

Nope,, I'm not a "drawbridger". When was the last time YOU spent time down at "the river"?

Every year volunteers need to pull vast amounts of garbage from the "wild and scenic" river. ( Left by friends of yours?) They buy their "whatever" at home (wherever that is) and leave it where they "party". Yup,, those state park rangers are sure earning their keep.
You have yet to prove your "millions spent here" BS.. What will be the next wild number to be pulled from that colostomy bag? LIB and friends are real good at wildass claims.
I guess you forget that illegal dope is what keeps the county afloat. ( Just ask Patricia)
Not ECO tourists on that special trip to the river.

As for the SoJ,, more people than not like the idea here. We are not the only ones in the nation looking to part ways with the "state" because of bureaucratic LIB BS.
Colorado has some "breakaways", as well as NY.

I will have the lawn chairs out, sitting at the new state line, watching the exodus of Progressives fleeing.(or getting evicted..)

[Jon]

No one who leaves trash is a friend of mine, or anyone at SYRCL or similar conservation groups. Those pigs you describe aren't aligned with me or any progressive-minded organizations. You don't really know what you're talking about.

[Walt]

But "jon"!! Those are the ones you say are "spending money" up here. "They" are the ones who frequent the most. Not the "tourist".
My friends "in low places" ( those working behind the counter at the gas stations in PV)
bitch about the valley riff raff "going to the river" all the time in the summer.
And you wonder why it's trashed all the time.
Like I asked.. When was the last time YOU went? There is nothing "scenic" about it.

I was out that way several times a month last year. How bout you? What was parked along side the road? Not "tourist type" buggys,, more like escapees from "Cash for clunkers".

Start charging a use fee like most other state parks.

Again.. Where is that proof of "millions"? Let's have the link.

[George Rebane]

re Jon's 1052am - In the face of the claimed "pigs" non-aligned with progressives, we must always remind ourselves of how the people of the Left deport themselves when they gather to celebrate or protest, and the pig stys they leave behind. And then compare that to how those of the Right behave in similar situations. One culture destroys the commons and expects others to repair it, and the other says it is our commons and we have to maintain it ourselves.

[fish]

Posted by: George Rebane | 15 May 2015 at 11:36 AM

My ex wife and her sister spoke at length about how trashed the "Earth Day" festival they went to in Reno in the 90's was.

[Walt]

Seems "we" had to pick up the trash even here. "jon" (Jeffy) tried to leave a steaming pile , with claims of "millions of tourist dollars" all because of the "wild and scenic" land grab. Seems the bullsh*t has walked.

[Jon]

Walt, fascinating to watch you expound on your description of "valley riff-raff"/libs.. I'm not sure the folks you refer to are all that political. :)

[Walt]

That's the best ya' got? It's ones "your side" counts on votes from. ( Where is my free stuff?)
So How bout those "millions"? Jeffy? Yup,, " fascinating" ( Spock your not.. But a "piece of work" for sure.)
But keep making shit up to fit the need. And as usual, if not me, someone else will put up the facts to flush you BS down the crapper.( another cleanup job done by others)

[Jon]

So you really think people who trash the river up are registered and active voters? Come on Walt, your silly rants have reached a new level of inane.

[Walt]

How do you know they are not? Now your grasping at straws Jeffy.
Ya' have achieved TROLL status today. Now lets see the facts on that "millions" claim.
YOU said it,, PROVE it. Otherwise, back under your bridge.
When the SoJ becomes reality ( and with LIBS taxing and spending the way the do) probably sooner than later, then where will you go? Carpetbag back to the "old" state?

Things will be SO much better for the working class. No more CA. mandated crapcans for cars, and trucks, Heavy equipment won't be 30% more expensive because of CARB regs.
And that's just for starters.

[Walt]

Hay Jeffy! Is THIS how you would react to a law that sticks it to radical ECO loons?
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/05/15/legal-exposure-wyoming-law-could-mean-jail-for-sunset-picture-claims-critic/

Yup, go WAY "out there" and say taking "scenic" photos will get ya' thrown in jail.

To our good Doc. Add this law to the SoJ charter. The ECO gang will surely start flinging poo.

[Todd Juvinall]

The people leaving the trash are democrats/liberals. They do it all the time. Just look at "Occupy Wall Street". Hell Nancy Pelosi, the most powerful gal in America at the time, support OWS and their activities. My guess is they were raised in kennels and never taught to respect others and others property. Once the dogs got old enough they registered as democrats and now they ring their crap to our county and its rivers. Good call WALT!

[Jon]

HAY Walt! The river people that trash the Yuba and destroy property in that ARIA do not vote in elections, period. You are on Planet Delusional if you think otherwise.

[Account Deleted]

"HAY Walt! The river people that trash the Yuba and destroy property in that ARIA do not vote in elections, period."
You have no proof whatever to back up that statement, jon.
Those of us that live in reality have seen the trashed parks and public areas time and time again when ever 'progressives' gather. Just Google it, if you care.

[Jon]

We're going to disagree because no one has ever surveyed destructive river people I would imagine. Common sense would dictate that people that irresponsible and destructive don't participate in responsible civic duties, nor do they even know the dates of elections.

[Jon]

I think we've hit on a major flaw in conservative thinking. Righties see and read about OWS bad behavior and think that that somehow translates into votes for progressive candidates in an election. I would say to you- there isn't a shred of evidence that would be the case. People destroying property in a park or river aren't progressive or liberal. They are destructive ANARCHISTS. Unless there is an Anarchist candidate on the ballot, why would you think they would support anyone of a major party?

[fish]

Anarchist candidate.......?

[Walt]

Jeffy. Seems your the one who's delusional. It's a known fact that it's LIBS who have the mental disorder. ( Need for me to supply the link?,, yes,, there ARE a few)
So The PRO LIB bumper stickers on those refugees from "cash for clunkers" I see "down there, are only for looks.
What will we read about come next election time? Something like this from the Left? " Cast your vote for a bag of dope!".. ( Oh wait... I read about that one already)

And on the subject of delusional,, now would be a good time to show some proof of that "millions" you spewed forth about.
Still,, not a word on just what is "scenic" about a dry bush covered canyon. DO TELL.. ( naaa,, not going to happen.. Delusions have set in. That seems to be your favorite word today.)

[Jon]

ding ding ding, that's the point fish.

[Jon]

Hay Walt, take a photo of a PRO LIB bumper sticker on the car of someone trashing the river with their cheap beer cans next time so I can see it :). We don't believe you.

[Jon]

Walt, still hoping for a repeal of the Wild and Scenic designations when your fictional SOJ is created? Ain't happening Mr. Dirt.

[Todd Juvinall]

Jon | 15 May 2015 at 03:48 PM

You are once again incorrect. The Park Service did a number of interviews/Surveys at river access spots of river folks back when the SYRCL people were trying to foist Wild and Scenic on the County and the river's private landowners. You need to do better homework. LIB and DEMS "Jon". Trash the place and wreck it for the good people. Algae blooms, river shutdowns and now I heard parking fees! Where do you think your lib/dem people crap? In the river!

[Don Bessee]

Righties, Bushies gee who talks that way? Sock puppet says 'we don't believe you.' Who is the 'we'? Lice or fleas don't count, perhaps a mouse in the pocket?

[Walt]

Oh oh,, Our TROLL is about to blow a fuse. I can hear ya' snort'n and puff'n all the way down here in PV, Jeffy. ( So loose "jon" the jig is up...)
How bout those "millions"? Jeffy,,,? ( just pulling wild numbers out of your backside as usual. Better wash that forearm digging so deep)

[Jon]

I see, State Parks surveyed their political views and voter registration status! Keep going Todd, this is great.

[Todd Juvinall]

Yes and it was all dems bubba.

[Walt]

Jeffy just won't answer pointed questions.. Why not Jeffy? At least you could make stuff up, as a good try. I will ask again.. Just what is "scenic" about it? It's sure one HELL of a fire hazard. The Park rangers really need to frisk all who enter for lighters and matches. We better close it off this year.. Just to be safe. Then will be no need for a river clean-up in Sept. from what LIB voters left behind.

[Walt]

Hay Jeffy.. " NO SoJ",, Never happen!",, Really..? I recall a time when "they" said "pot will NEVER be legal." Uh,,, As you were saying? ( I heard LIBS were going to keep winning elections too... How did that work out? Even Nancy P., and Debby W. Schultz assured you that LIBS would hold the Senate and take back the House.) So your "Karnack the magnificent"
prediction that SoJ will "never happen" is already on thin ice.( even less with AGW)

[Jon]

OK there Jeffy. Whatever you say.

[Walt]

No,, YOUR Jeffy.. I'm Walt... Can't keep your fictitious names right anymore?

[George Rebane]

Jon 353pm - It is remarkable that all those non-voters for Obama showed up at his inaugurations and trashed the Washington Mall. Yet when conservatives (e.g. for the Glenn Beck affair) showed up, they left the place cleaner than they found it. And that has happened throughout the state capitals and major cities in the land.

To argue that we are not sure that these trash dispensers are not voters of the Left is beyond ludicrous.

fish 358pm - your comment again didn't have the correct HTML tag to end italics, which made every comment thereafter in italics. A little more care please.

[Don Bessee]

It has been pointed out that Pattie S is over on the liberal lament land claiming there were no deputies at the SOJ presentation and the poor old asa is being discriminated against. Uh pattie, review the video. I was in the back row right by the press box entrance. I saw a deputy by the doors near the bathrooms and had one by the press box for most of the event.

[Walt]

Was there a riot or mass confrontation no one heard about? sound like the MRAP should have been deployed. And just what was the asa's beef this time? Discrimination you say? What? getting ignored? The news images are out on Google Earth for the aria. ( my place as a date of 30 days ago). Yup the pot plantations are already looking good. ( Big ones) Ya' can't miss them.

[Walt]

Another group of LIBS a few years back also left their crap for others to pick up.
Our past editor of The Union told of how he had to pick up the "peacenik's" leavings
when they came rolling into town one snowy day. And The Union was nice enough to allow them to start their funeral march from there. He put pictures in the paper even.
They sure knew how to say "Thank You". ( Sucker,, now you clean up our mess.)

[Jon]

Walt, are you an opera buff? Always talking about arias. But hay, who knew? :)

[Walt]

Sorry Bubba, I deal in facts. ( unlike you) But one thing is for sure, you make for good theater. Who needs opera when there is you for free entertainment? The only challage is getting a sane answer from you.
Why is it most LIBS can't fathom truth or reality?