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17 June 2015


Bill Tozer

Thought I smelled a sheet stain and, by golly, it leads back to the jonnie on the spot.

Totally off topic, but give the libs an old inch and they take a mile. Then, that ain't good enough for them cause they want MORE. More. More, more.


Bill Tozer

Oh boy. "Isn't denying racism a form of racism?" Dunno. Me thinks it's a pigment of your imagination.

On the brighter side, Obama in conjectuon with all the characters of good will in every liberal camp have by their actions been good for business. Berry berry good.


Adam Floyd

Gee Don, let's talk about those uncomfortable truths..... Like the one that you moved into a mentally ill woman's home and took out a loan to pay your taxes in the same amount she owes in child support (@$200K), and considering that you owed @$40K for the same thing I for one am not impressed with you to listen to anything that comes out of your mouth as time after time it's consistently been BS.

Bill Tozer

So much hate. How about we poke fun at ourselves for a change of scenery, shall we?



Account Deleted

"...you even write like a German."
Oh no - not that! First we was crackers, now we're - you know - 'German'.
And we all know what tune that dog whistle plays.
"Tired of responding to these long personal attacks on people."
As opposed to your short ones?
Not sure how tired jon could be as he won't respond to my questions about his posts.
It's Sunday, jon - take the day off and rest. You'll feel all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed Monday morning.

Todd Juvinall

Here we go again! Jonnie is a troll so don't take him seriously as a human. It shows no human traits. LOL! He returned to jis brifge!

steve frisch

Posted by: Scott Obermuller | 20 June 2015 at 11:02 PM

You want a statement of my principles like George's "Conservatarian Credo"?

Well lets see...I support democracy, freedom, capitalism and a controlled market economy, the Constitution, the First Amendment (all three parts), science, equality for all, baseball, small business, land, water and energy conservation, reason, evolution, pragmatism, law, order and justice, the rights and power of the individual, private property, the state as an arbiter or order, the social compact....I guess I could go on?

My favorite color is blue...not the dark blue of the navy but more the pale blue the sky....I mean really WTF are you looking for here?

You are the one who brought up books I have read....I am embarrassed to admit that I read a lot of thrillers like Grisham and Clancy...but I read a lot of history, political economy, economics, religion, science, philosophy, modern fiction and science fiction too....I have read Rules for Radicals and Mein Kamof, I have read the Bible and the Bhagavad Gita, I have read Hayek and Marx, I have read Paul Johnson and Howard Zinn, I have read Noami Oreskes and Bjorn Lomberg....etc.

I have over the years supported public radio, the ACLU and SPLC, my local Chamber of Commerce and Downtown Merchants Association, primarily Democratic political candidates (although I have supported my share of moderate Republicans), and of course the organization I work for.

I have shied away from supporting groups that point guns at the heads of federal agents and threaten to shot them or place women in the front ranks to create a national press incident.

I did once tell some crazy people from a communist front group that having a bake sale to support their newspaper seemed a little silly.

You are on a total fishing expedition here....

Oh and by the way, over the years when people have made statements on this blog that I considered racist I have pointed them out....I guess I am not shy.

I think I have made it clear I think Todd is an idiot, Greg is troll, George is a master propagandist, Russ is intellectually dishonest, Fish is a professional paid provocateur, Barry is occasionally confused, Walt is just a redneck, and you....I am not sure what I think of you my friend...it certainly ain't "German".

But I think the main point is that almost everyone here is confused and just flat our wrong about American history, the history of race relations in our country and the modern consequences of that history, and as such, are apologists for a system that perpetuates racial bias.

Bill Tozer

My, that was about as interesting as a Father's Day mini vacation.


steve frisch

Posted by: Bill Tozer | 21 June 2015 at 07:20 AM

I think so too Bill, but then Scott demanded it so....

Bill Tozer

Oh Steve Frisch, I was just feeling left out after browsing your list of my fellow posters here. It ain't easy being a very sensitive warm fuzzy guy and all. Plus, I am truly an attention whore.
Happy Father's Day. Oh, you omitted Zane Grey from your reading list, but let's just overlook that sin of omission for now in the spirit of common bonds. I did read Truman Copote's book, but found it sooo boring. To each his own.

Todd Juvinall

I think Frisch is a bit off his noggin. There are no racists on this blog. He is probably feeling guilty about his own racism and is projecting. Freud types should read his screeds and nake it into a manual about delusion.

Michael R. Kesti

steve frisch 21Jun15 07:24 AM

I enjoyed it.

Barry Pruett

White liberals fuel racism. Period.


Barry Pruett

This unfortunate event is an opportunity for us to unite in support of our black brothers and sisters to show that racism is deplorable and ignorant. Instead of seeking unity, we have white liberals seeking to take political advantage by attempting to further divide so that they can maintain their voting block. That is disgusting, and what I have seen here this weekend as to Steve and Jon disgusts me. This is an opportunity to love, but instead we see white liberals fomenting hate. You my friends need to pray for forgiveness and mercy and take the opportunity to express charity.


Fish is a professional paid provocateur........*

WAIT....WHAT?!?! I'm supposed to be getting paid for wasting time chatting up the poor deluded lefty dimwits who frequent this site?!?! Kinda disappointed that you didn't slip in the Kevin Costner speech to Susan Sarandon from "Bull Durham"in there too Steve.

On a more important note now that you've calmed down a bit, secure in the knowledge that we are all racists.....were you going to get around to explaining "Plan Frisch"? The one for exponential economic growth.....cuz if you're serious I think this would be an excellent time for me to "get in on the ground floor"! I look forward to seeing your presentation!

PS: Kudos George on being named a "Master Propagandist"! I realize that much like the practice in former Eastern bloc countries of bestowing "awards" in lieu of actual compensation this probably doesn't mean too much to you in any tangible sense an acknowledgment from Steve regarding your nefarious skills is still a lovely gesture!

(....and you guys call the "right" paranoid :-) Oh right....satire.....silly me.)


....too much to you in any tangible sense an acknowledgment from Steve

too much to you in any tangible sense but an acknowledgment from Steve....

Crap! Need to YouTube "Conjunction Junction" again!


Posted by: Bill Tozer | 21 June 2015 at 07:45 AM

Oh William....no need to feel left out! I've always thought of you in a "first among equals (racist hater category)" context for your work here at RR.

I'm sure your contributions haven't gone unnoticed by the "Thought Police"!

Todd Juvinall

Barry I don't think Frisch and Kesti will watch and listen to the link. The black man on his "anti-liberal" rant does not fit their template.

Fish, I too have been waiting breathlessly for the economic plans from Frisch. I am sure he has none, but in his mind he is the "king" and all the rest must accept his pronouncements. His Passage's Restaurant failure will never be mentioned.

White liberals like Frisch, and wannabees like Kesti are the bane of the country. No solutions, only picayune hate filled diatribes.


Oh my.....I wouldn't have thought that the "sweet, sweet boy" as jeffy likes to call him would have slipped custody this easily?! First a church service now a childs birthday party.....it's like he's some kind of racist super hero!


Wait?? Not him?! Ah well...continue with your day then!

I'm sure the usual suspects will be along shortly to inform us that this is all our fault!

steve frisch

Boy Barry, I cannot even begin to tell you how many ways the critique expressed in that ‘rant’ on You Tube does not apply to this situation.

First, my objection to the ignoring of or misrepresenting of American racial history long pre-dates the events of Charleston.

Second, I am not disregarding the ‘number one killer of black men’ there are many policies I support and that many Democrats support that directly address that issue including improving public education, open and fair housing laws, fair lending laws, increased minimum wages, gun control, and community policing.

Third, I agree with him that ‘most white folks are not commending this crime’; and no one said they were. To the contrary most white liberals (whom I by the way am not a spokesperson for because I am a moderate more than a liberal) are commending the unity and values expressed by all people in the wake of this crime. You are using the comments on the video to construct a straw man.

Fourth no one is claiming to speak on behalf of black Americans, another straw man.

Fifth, no one ever said that anyone was saying that most white folks are racists; I said that many people here turn a blind eye to racism, and we sometimes harbor racism in our midst without calling it what it is.

Sixth his basic premise in the video is incorrect, no one is saying that ‘black folks can’t think for themselves’, to the contrary I think they are doing a mighty fine job of calling it like it is, a system that condones racism, and even romanticizes it with symbols like the ridiculous Confederate flag, and myths about our history and Civil War.

My basic premise is that when we tell lies like that the Civil War was about a Constitutional principle like states rights we are apologists for slavery and racism that followed it. George has told that lie here many times and no one here seems confortable refuting it. When we harbor people like Richard Mack in our midst who hob-nob with white supremacist militias we are condoning their behavior. I noticed that you avoided responding to my rebuttal of your outrage over calling that one out. When we engage in rhetoric about black race baiting as Todd does here on his web site, we are fueling the same racial hatred that has divided our country; no one here calls him out for that. When we call people ragheads; one person here called someone a ‘jigaboo’; when we continually point to urban crime as a function of race as many here have; when we denigrate people for cultural traits, which I have seen here, we are engaging in racism.

You can get on your holy high horse but when the chips are down you turn a blind eye to racist rhetoric, stereotypes and behavior. It is easy to pray with the victims of Charleston this weekend it is hard to call your friends out when they violate that prayer every other day of the week. You do that and I may rescind my critique.

Michael R. Kesti

Todd Juvinall 21Jun15 08:44 AM

Barry I don't think...

If you had stopped there, Todd, you would have been correct.

steve frisch

I think it about time someone tried to seek political advantage from tragedies like the Charleston massacre, or Newton, or the shooting of black children by police. We have a society that taught that kid to hate, that filled his head with the idea that acting out in this way was an option, that provided him with the patches of racism, that gave him the ideas in his manifesto, that sent him to the museum of the Confederacy and a plantation to take his pictures, and that ignored his clear signs that he was going to commit murder.

If we don't learn from our inability to recognize that how will we ever learn?

By the way, I did not see any of you saying, "we should pray with the victims of Paris deli massacre" and ignore the system that enabled it. You were right there calling Islam the religion of hate, so the double standard you are applying here is just plain crazy.

steve frisch

Oh and Todd you might note that I watched the video because unlike you I actually go to source material :)

Todd Juvinall

Kesti, if yopu had read the full line you would have earned something precious.

Frisch 9"34AM, Say what? I went to the video and that guys was talking about you! Just put Steve Frisch in place of "white liberal" and there you have it. You are the problem, not us. Jeeze you are to easy. Kesti is just dumb but you are dumb and full of yourself.


yup,, "redneck" and proud of it. Us rednecks are more American and freedom loving than the likes of you will ever be. LIBS have gone to great strides to curtail freedoms. They never met a restriction they didn't like. ( Oh... except ONE... drug use)

Love it. Now Steve is "revising" the civil war. What Next Lincoln was Democrat?

steve frisch

I can't think of anything more 'full of oneself' than publishing a "Conservatarian Credo" based on a made up word and copyrighting a monograph on "Caudaphobia" another made up word :)

Todd Juvinall

Well hey SAteve Frisch, is that worse than a Sierra Business Council CEO spewing commie hatred and racist chat all the time?

steve frisch

Perfect example from Todd's blog this morning: "So I read the article and it became clear to me that real Germans, the white ones, were not those "Germans" that were headed to the ISIL camps to learn how to blow themselves to smithereens along with innocent children. But to really find out this fact, that the people headed out were "immigrants" from other countries, such as Turkey or other Islamic countries, one has to search and analyze. Just as these reporters do here in American articles, you just can't find out the nationality of people other than "white" in these stories."

That is right Todd, only white people are 'Germans' (a nationality not a race) and the US press only identifies 'white people' in their stories, a meme I would challenge to to verify in any way other than your ridiculous twisted vision of the American press.


We have a society that taught that kid to hate, that filled his head with the idea that acting out in this way was an option, that provided him with the patches of racism, that gave him the ideas in his manifesto, that sent him to the museum of the Confederacy and a plantation to take his pictures, and that ignored his clear signs that he was going to commit murder.

But Steve.....it's the progressive left that's been driving the culture and society in general since the late 60's.....is it possible that your societal prescriptions are failing?

What were the "clear signs"? Your "Stormfronters" seem as likely to go on selfie binges (a hobby like young Mr. Roof apparently enjoyed much) as vibrant inner city urban dwellers but seem far less likely to shoot them.


Clearly Walt owns a few Confederate battle flags. Unfortunately its days when people displayed it with pride- are numbered.
No doubt it will remain a symbol for more underground hate groups.


From a good NYT piece today- regarding Republican SC legislators who have had enough of the battle flag:

"One Republican legislator is already pushing to take it down. State Representative Norman D. Brannon, who represents a conservative district upstate and was a friend of Mr. Pinckney said he will file a bill in the next session of the legislature to remove the flag from the Capitol grounds.

In an interview Saturday, Mr. Brannon said every one of the approximately 25 legislators he had talked with about his measure had been positive, either expressing support or at least offering encouragement.

“The flag is kind of like algae in a lake,” he said. “It’s just barely under the surface, everybody knows it’s there, but unless something like this happens nobody talks about it.”

In this case, he spoke bluntly about what that something was.

“What lit the fire under this was the tragic death of my friend and his eight parishioners,” Mr. Brannon said. “It took my buddy’s death to get me to do this. I should feel ashamed of myself.”

He said that the presidential candidates should not mince words. “I would tell them to take a position on the flag.”

Account Deleted

Steve at 7:05 - Thank you. You made my points right down the line.
You continue to spew only generalities for principles.
I can claim just the same. How are you any better?
You continue to claim that people that post here whom you won't name say 'racists' things you can't cite.
I can I can easily tie you to all sorts of murderous ogres of history through the books you have read and orgs you support. Through the same sort of flimsy connections you cite for folks you don't like.
Best of all:
"If we don't learn from our inability to recognize that how will we ever learn?"
OK, Steve - at what point would you have had the police detain that idiot kid? And on what charge and how long would they hold him?
And would you like to be held by the same standards?


hey Steve, re: Germans- with your last name and my own 3/4 German heritage, obviously no offense meant to Germans or German ancestry. My comment goes back to funny conversations I used to have with a very good Dutch friend and soccer colleague when describing another player on our team who was lacking any semblance of flexibility; bullet points for comments, strictly no emotion, just hard line, no compromise, no nuance.
Being Dutch, his immediate description was always- "he's German, what do you expect"?

Bill Tozer

First, I kinda relate to Mr. Kesti, even if I misspell his name on occasion. He is more pure libertarian than most. Guess I can relate to Kesti and that libertarian streak.
*Quick side note: Kesti did not diss me on another thread, fellows. Ignorant just means not knowing, like when using milktoast as an adjective, as opposed to a noun, as in jon's response was rather milktoast. Or is that an adverb?? Been a berry berry long time since I sleep with my high school English teacher and got a very good grade as a direct result of my after school tutoring. Now days they call that child abuse. Oh abuse me, abuse this horny young teenager to the max I say. She taught me a few things as well. "If loving you is wrong, I don't wanna be right.", but I digress and regress.
Thus, instead of milquetoast, my ignorance of putting letters in the correct order showed and even needed a Q and an U. Go figure. No dissing, just the facts, ma'am. Did I say *quick side note? Haha. Just like a lib who believes everything and lies a lot. Me bad, so berry berry bad. Me likes berries berry berry much.

Well, I finally figured out what makes the Emery Twins, little jonn, and white libs tick. Such a glum lot explained....and to music for entertainment value. I, for one, and proud to don bright colors on my back.



Kesti 9:32, well done...:)

George Rebane

For the record, my reading of history is quite a bit different than that of our liberal readers. For example, we learn from Shelby Foote, preeminent Civil War historian, that the South wanted to peacefully secede from the Union, and Lincoln fought the war in order to preserve the Union in its then entirety. For the North slavery was an ancillary issue, and if the South would not have fought for its independence then slavery would no doubt have continued for some more years - i.e. there would have been no Emancipation Proclamation of 1863 - until public sentiment, politics, and economics would have given rise to a different process for the slaves to be freed. But for progressives like Steven Frisch, such sentiments and their expression are evidence of racism, pure and simple.

In any event, now that everyone has convinced their counterparts of the wisdom of their own closely held beliefs, may I invite you to consider continuing your labors in the new 21jun15 sandbox.

steve frisch

Posted by: George Rebane | 21 June 2015 at 10:28 AM

You completely misrepresented my view, and the view of many historians, of antebellum history--I never contended that the north was motivated to fight the Civil War over abolition, quite the contrary I know they did not, that they fought for the preservation of the Union--the contention is that the south was motivated to fight the Civil war over the retention and expansion of slavery, because it was in their economic interest to retain human beings in bondage, not in the protection of states rights. That is what I am saying as racism, pure and simple.


George, even if your misreprentation of Steve's view was valid, how would that evidence of racism, pure and simple? There are plenty of Civil War writers with different interpretations- like African-American Barbara Fields- you would lump her as racist? I would further add- Shelby Foote, while being an incredible source of material, interesting guy, and great story teller, is far from the defining authority for Civil War factual matters.


By the way, I did not see any of you saying, "we should pray with the victims of Paris deli massacre" and ignore the system that enabled it. You were right there calling Islam the religion of hate, so the double standard you are applying here is just plain crazy.

Actually there was a "Je Suis Charlie" thread:


Not much in the way of prayer though.

Again Steve, what "system" enabled Dylan Roofs crime?

Todd Juvinall

My goodness, Steve Frisch is sure protesting his hate filled monologues isn't he? There are no middle/right posters here who are racists. Only the liberals like Frisch are ranting about this. I believe America is for everyone that wants to believe in freedom and hope. Those like Frisch that take advantage of the fruits of others labor to then complain about them is the typical liberal pablum better set in Moscow 1972.

Enablers of hate seem to take every tragedy or misfortune to start the name calling and I can only include that people such as Steve Frisch are such self haters they think everyone else is too. My guess is he has never spent time with people of "color" and only his "books" told him about it.

steve frisch

Posted by: Jon | 21 June 2015 at 10:45 AM

I am actually a fan of Shelby Foote and consider his three volume history of the Civil War a must read. However, Mr. Foote did not extensively cover the antebellum period, did not cover the economic aspect of the war or the events leading up to the war other than in a cursory fashion, and did not go into detail on the politics of the antebellum period. He was masterful in his detail on the battle history and the strategy and tactics of the war, which has real merit.

I would recommend Throes of Democracy by Walter McDougall; Race and Reunion: The Civil War in American Memory, by David Blight; The Fiery Trial: Abraham Lincoln and American Slavery, and Reconstruction: America's Unfinished Revolution, by Eric Foner; Slavery and the Commerce Power by David Lightner; and Contested Democracy: Freedom, Race and Power in American History.

I have not read Barbara Fields Racecraft yet, but it is on my list eventually.


I started my Civil War battle reading way back with Bruce Catton, then Foote's trilogy, Stephen Sears, et al, but wouldn't reference any of them for societal/racial aspects of the time- the lead-up and reconstruction periods. Foote, in particular, was way too deeply rooted in the Southern culture for any real objectivity of the higher level discussions. When you hear the term Southern Gentleman, the picture of Shelby Foote is what you see.


Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 21 June 2015 at 11:15 AM

My guess is he has never spent time with people of "color" and only his "books" told him about it.

Well it's my understanding that he grew up in Chicago.....interesting that the palest guy who regularly comments here chose to live in a burgh that weighs in with the following demographics:

The racial makeup of Truckee was 13,992 (86.5%) White, 3,016 (18.6%) Hispanic or Latino, 60 (0.4%), African American, 95 (0.6%) Native American, 241 (1.5%) Asian, 15 (0.1%) Pacific Islander, 1,431 (8.8%) from other races, and 346 (2.1%) from two or more races.


As an aside my inter-family demographics are more diverse and have higher percentages of minorities....black in this instance (Hat tip-Big Mike and Aunt Dee Dee) than Truckee. My wife and oldest stepdaughter beat Truckee in the Hispanic category as well 40%...(well okay 30% as my wife is mixed white, Mexican, and Native American) vs 20% for Truckee. Truckee is almost 15% points whiter than Portland....reputed to be the "Whitest City in America". Granted they fight in different weight categories but still it makes you wonder.....?

Of course looking at the SBC roster doesn't help his bona fides vis a vis White Supremacy......they're pretty pale as well. I work with more blacks and Hispanics than Steve does as well!

Hmmmm....you might be on to something Todd.....what could he be compensating for??

Todd Juvinall

My grandaughter is half white and half Mexican/American. I think that beats old whitey Steve Frisch too. I really don't know what he is trying compensate for either fish. It sounds like he doesn't like his "color" and desires to be something else. Or, just the run of the mill self hating white liberal like that YOUTUBE video black guy said.If Frisch were serious about race he would be the first one in line implementing "affirmative action" in white cracker SBC-land.

Jonnie, who knows, probably needs his meds. LOL!

steve frisch

While you are engaging in pop psychological diagnoses why does Todd talk so much about his prowess?


George Rebane

SteveS 1035am and Jon 1045am - Have no idea what "misrepresentation" of mine you are referring to since you did not summarize what I said. And Jon's view that Shelby Foote "is far from the defining authority for Civil War factual matters" puts him into a class of his own. Even PBS, not known for its rightwing outlook and interpretations, featured Shelby Foote as the definitive Civil War historian in a multi-part series (based on his trilogy) in which Foote was celebrated for his work by other historians and academics. But then, my purpose here is not to change your minds, but simply to again point to the chasm that separates us on about every dimension of human activity on this planet - history, science, economics, sociology, domestic and foreign policies, ... . Nevertheless, I consider our variant perspectives as an important part of RR's contribution to illuminating the 'mind of 21st century America'.


Let's summarize the events as they intersect with this blog:

A young man from a broken family shoots up a prayer meeting, killing nine people who are all black, racial epithets are involved. It has since come out (a black drinking buddy of the shooter) that he was telling his black friends that he was going to shoot up a college.

Frisch and Jon come here to take the blood they dipped their hands into and smear it on posters here. After Sandy Hook Frisch only had gun law changes in mind to try to beat people with here but this has the bonus of his unfocused and unsubstantiated view than many posters here are, in fact, racists. He generally refuses to cite any specific names or quotes, his spidey sense is guiding his libels.

Does that pretty much sum it up?

I find it interesting Flood was dithering between shooting up a group of blacks in church or a local college. My guess is that, at 21, both groups were passing him by and he wanted to do something to make himself stand out. I've read nothing about the teachings of his parents but I'm sure Father's day is not pleasant for Flood's, not only for his son's notoriety: it was his dad and his uncle who identified him for police.

Frisch and "Jon", grow up and stop siezing tragedies for partisan political purposes.


Roof, not Flood. How I managed that substitution I've no clue but it might be the lack of watching any TV coverage and generally avoiding the news as it dribbles out.

steve frisch

Posted by: George Rebane | 21 June 2015 at 12:42 PM

George, you referenced my reading when you said, "my reading of history is quite a bit different than that of our liberal readers". Since I was the only one bringing up the Civil War and its interpretation, that could only have been referring to me.

There are some other problems with your position:

1) Although I agree Shelby Foote is a good military historian (and I enjoyed reading his work), you never addressed the point I brought up that he did not cover antebellum economic and political history, and thus he was not an expert on that history. Saying this does not put Jon in a class of his own, go on line and read the critiques by contemporary historians of Mr. Foote's work, AND read other historians interpretations and compare them.

2) The following quote is another example of the revising of history I have seen you do: "that the South wanted to peacefully secede from the Union". This is disingenuous at best because it omits the key facts. The South did not just want to 'succeed from the Union", they wanted to extend slavery westward to the west coast and above the Missouri Compromise line, they wanted to break the Compromise of 1850 agreement over the inclusion of slave and free states, and they wanted to EXTEND slavery to Mexico where it was outlawed and annex Cuba in order to maintain and expand their markets for slaves. This is not 'peacefully sucede." This would have blocked western expansion of free states and created a hegemonic slave empire to the south of the Union.

If you purpose is not to change minds but illustrate the chasm, then perhaps you should READ MORE!

Todd Juvinall

Gregory sunmmed up the two white crackers, Frisch and "Jonnie" quite well. I see Frisch and Jonnie, (I think he is MA) are still obsessed with my prowess (LOL) so here is a link for the wannabee Frisch's deepest fantasies. Too funny.


Don Bessee

It is still very interesting our ranting leftists both were in full CCC mode on the topic of the financial crooks that had run amok in the County for so long. They both even passed on the chance to throw a rock at the DA on the issue or the Republicans for endorsing the DA in the last election. Then a friend of the forger shows up in the wee smalls. I would have at least expected a dismissive snark but nothing at all. Now what is their motivation to whistle past the 90 or so counts that came in guilty on Friday?


Nothing of Frisch's 1:33 establishes his borderline insane view that the Confederacy would not have preferred the Union to just let it go.

Personally, I think we in the North would have been better served by waving goodbye to the South rather than wage a bloody war that haunts us to this day. Besides, the right to secede is all but specified in Jefferson's homage to Locke, the Declaration of Independence, not that the Declaration has any force of law.

steve frisch

Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 21 June 2015 at 01:37 PM

Very thoughtful of Todd to post confirmation of my suspicion that he has no...

steve frisch

Posted by: Gregory | 21 June 2015 at 01:55 PM

Yes, Gregory, what I said is that George OMITTED information...get it OMITTED.

The South did not to just want to peaceably leave, they wanted to extend and expand slavery into the Caribbean and Central America.

By the way, who fired the first shot Gregory? The South. Who implored them to stay in the Union and work our a compromise? Lincoln.

For those of you who still hold to the ridiculous 'states rights' argument I suggest you read Lincoln's Cooper Union address:


What I really hate about you guys is that you can NEVER accept the idea that someone else know more than you do about something.....oh, and I know much more than you do about climate change so don't bring that card out, unless you want to meet in a two hour open public debate with mutually agreed upon specified rules of debate. I would take you on any time .

George Rebane

There is nothing in the Constitution's enumerated powers of the federal govt to allow it to prevent a state from seceding. It is only the federal govt's ability to apply extra-legal brute force - e.g. as in 'Mr Lincoln's War' as many in the North called it - that can stop states from seceding.

Walter Williams' short essay on the topic is illuminating -

SteveF 206pm - during the last 40 years the Left has seen to it that American history has essentially been rewritten. One only has to compare today's high school history text with that of pre-Great Society's. What your argument about the South seeking to extend slavery does not reveal is that such extension into the western states (Missouri Compromise) was premised on retaining a Congressional balance so long as the South remained in the Union. But that itself is also besides the point of our different interpretations of history. My 1242pm stands the stronger, the more you continue your multi-year claim to paint me and others as unread of the indelible stone tablets from the mountain that apparently inform your understanding of these events.

Todd Juvinall

Steve Frisch is simply lacking in class. Kesti, where are you? Oh, you only trash righties. I forgot.

The Civil War wa fought because the South Carolina politicians seceded and blasted away at Fort Sumter to prove their point.

Todd Juvinall

Steve Frisch complains at 2:06 PM

"What I really hate about you guys is that you can NEVER accept the idea that someone else know more than you do about something.....oh, and I know much more than you do about climate change so don't bring that card out, unless you want to meet in a two hour open public debate with mutually agreed upon specified rules of debate. I would take you on any time . "

My goodness, you say that about every issue, even having and raising a child! Hubris. No one likes you here because you are a know-it-all and can't resist telling us that time after nauseating time.


Nice try "jon",, seems you forget that your on the "stars and bars" side of politics.
The party of "the klan". It was the Southern Democrat that wrote the fist anti gun laws.
The NRA was the first to fight for minority rights. DAMN, today's LIB is sooo ignorant.
LIBS are till trying to keep the minorities under their "control" "Vote for us, WE know what's best for you. How dare those damned Yankees free you from our plantations."


Ah, so "peaceably" in Frisch's view means secession without any expectations of growth that in anyway conflicted with the Republican Party's plans for the North. That's what Frisch omits from his curious definition of "peaceably".

Great piece by Williams linked by George, here's a snippet:
"Every single bit of evidence shows that states have a right to secede. There's absolutely nothing in the Constitution that prohibits secession. What stops secession is the brute force of a mighty federal government, as witnessed by the costly War of 1861. Only one thing good came out of that war. It eliminated slavery. It's had a devastating legacy for future generations of Americans in that since the issue of secession was brutally settled, the federal government is free to run roughshod over the safeguards envisioned by the Framers, namely the Ninth and Tenth Amendments."


The two "Left feet" also fail to comprehend "redneck" does NOT equate to racist.

Todd Juvinall

This is for that cracker Frisch. More death and destruction this weekend in Detroit.


No whites in this one Frisch. Except for the cops.


More from the usual suspect:
"What I really hate about you guys is that you can NEVER accept the idea that someone else know more than you do about something.....oh, and I know much more than you do about climate change so don't bring that card out, unless you want to meet in a two hour open public debate with mutually agreed upon specified rules of debate. I would take you on any time . "

Frisch, you have no formal education in science and have shown no talent for it here, always resorting to the usual fallacies and ad hominems when your ignorance fails you. No, you don't "know more than" many of us regarding climate change, all you have done to date is parrot the authorities you choose to believe and have shown no patience whatsoever for actually discussing the underlying science.

Given your stated malice towards me (if I recall correctly, you've declared that you "hate my guts") there's no reason to debate anywhere but here. Perhaps Paul E. would host an online event on KVMR's website, but I'd not accept you being anywhere near center stage even if it was online. Your palpable hate is just too disqualifying.

Bill Tozer

Did someone just call Dr. Rebane ignorant? Unknowing? Seems to moi the good doc always says in advance if the topic or field in discussion is not his forte (that's French for Fort Sumner).
So, here we go again debating the reasons behind The War Between The States. This ignorant brut thinks some confuse reasons with causes, but who cares. Now there are many aspects to the unpopular War Between The States and various perspectives taken from personal letters, diaries, newspaper accounts, and the private thoughts of many of the main characters involved. That only sheds light on some of the numerous complexities, symptoms, causes, reasons, etc. We have The War Between The States foremost authorities, but no one single authority. BTW, history has shown that newspaper accounts are often the least reliable and accurate accounts in live time.
I remember when Southern Rock hit the scene and the elistists where afraid the South would rise again and putting it down as beneath them. Deliverance kind of stuff. Old Charlie Daniels on the fiddle singing get down, get loud, get proud cause the South is going to do it again, this time with ZZ Top, the Alman Bros, Wet Willy, and even Elvin Bishop. Now, they have hit there high notes and sour notes since. Who is the one and only final word on the rise of Southern Rock in the early 70's???? Who gives a popcorn fart.

Well, the South (Sunbelt) has risen again and it a growing, healthy driving force in our economy, and benefiting from widespread internal migration. Now it's them darn Yankees and Dems and Union Thugs up north are decrying the rise of The South. See, everyone knows that The South is code word for Confederate Flag waving, moonshine guzzling, ignorant overtly racists MonsterTruck lobbing inbred hillbillies. That is according to our present authorities on The South located behind the ivory covered walls in the Northeast, aka, Yankeetown.

BTW, the Confederate Constitution was the only constitution in the world at the time that barred the slave capturing industry from forgein lands. The Yankees already had cornered that market anyway which kept the New England ports financially afloat. If a slave was already here, then one could purchase one legally.
My take on the main cause of The War Between The States was solidified in the last scene of Gone With The Wind with Scarlet O'Hara gripping the red dirt in her fists making her vow. Yep, it's all about the soil, the soil that gets in one's blood.

Father's Day Story: a farmer may hate his father, but got the love of the soil from hid Dad. Happy Father's Day.

Bill Tozer

Walt @ 3:22 pm. Mr. Walt, your reference to "Two Left Feet" shows an appalling lack of sensitivity to those inflicted by the Libhole Affliction. Now, I ain't no shrink but I have pissed off a few by holding up a mirror to them. Anywho, I will leave it up to the foremost authorities to decide if liberalism is a disease, an affliction, a syndrome, a disability, or just merely be unfortunate enough to possess a plain ole broken thinker. No doubt it is debilitating. We should not treat sick people that way, even if they clean up and present themselves as polished spittoons. They need our sympathy, yet deserve our scorn. We must take the higher road when these shithouse rats cross our paths. Yes, they be children of The Universe, no matter how lowly these abhorrent creatures are. We must gently guide them to the light. Try to show some mercy on their tortured souls. I will try as well, albeit I have fallen shy of this goal on occasion.

Michael R. Kesti

Boy, oh, boy, today certainly was another busy day in the sandbox. It's pretty clear who didn't spend time with family on this Father's Day!

To Steven Frish, who revealed who he really hates, I say, "What we hate about others tends to be that which we don't much like about ourselves."

To Gregory, who says that he would not debate Steven Frish because Frish's, "palpable hate is too disqualifying", I say, "I believe that Frish would melt you down and, if he felt charitable, mop you into a bucket in a debate of any kind, anywhere, and anytime." Don't be insulted, though, because I don't mind telling you that I believe that he would do the same with any of us, including myself. A match with our host might be interesting, however.

Finally, of Todd Juvinall, whose typographical, spelling, and grammatical error rates increased through the day in apparent direct proportion to the steam pressure between his ears, I ask, " Do you never tire of playing the clown? "

Oh, and thanks to Bill Tozer and Jon for the compliments.

steve frisch

Posted by: George Rebane | 21 June 2015 at 02:16 PM

I love it! So if historians don't agree with you, it is magically because historians have been compromised by modern society...not that they may have better resources for research today, or that new information may have changed conclusions.....it is hilarious really.

Oh, and then there is this that you said:"What your argument about the South seeking to extend slavery does not reveal is that such extension into the western states (Missouri Compromise) was premised on retaining a Congressional balance so long as the South remained in the Union."

You must have missed what I actually said, that the South was attempting to expand slavery above the line drawn by the Missouri Compromise and beyond the popular sovereignty agreement established in the Kansas Nebraska Act.

But you really proved my point.....it does not matter WTF a historian says if they disagree with you, no matter their credential, so in essence FACTS and SOURCES don't matter.

That is kind of the definition of ignorance. We might as well flush scholarship down the toilet.


Clearly Confederate symbology has no place in polite society.....eh Jon?!


Todd Juvinall

What a day here. After all my wonderful kids and relatives came by throughout the day I must just say thanks to them all.

For Kesti. You analysis is as dopey as your spelling bees. If you and Frisch ever meet each other the kissing would never stop. You are simply a clown Kesti, pure and simple. Do you ever tire of being an outcast creep?

Regarding debating. I personally have over the years debated many liberals. Including lawyers and I must say, once they get rattled they always lose. Gregory would clean the floor with Frisch because Frisch is sinply a buffoon and easily heated up. Anyway, I hope Kesti finds a job and Frisch finds some humility. Good day. LOL!

steve frisch

Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 21 June 2015 at 09:03 PM

Great Todd, let Gregory prove you correct.


Kesti, unlike Frisch who arguably did us all a favor by allowing his line to terminate, I did spend a wonderful day with my son who is home from grad school. I got a Father's Day dinner cooked for me and we've been drinking killer Tanqueray and Q Tonics; I'm on #3. While I type we're watching the original Apolcalypse Now cut (HD via Netflix and Roku) which he'd not seen before. First comment... "I don't believe Martin Sheen was ever that young" (checking, he was in his late 30's).

I've no doubt I could acquit myself and the science well in a formal well structured and well behaved debate if a Frisch would be civil but he's been pretty clear that is not his intention; I've no doubt he'd be hitting below the belt. That and he really doesn't have a fucking clue about the science so what would the point be? Besides, the McKibben loving KVMR ain't exactly neutral territory.

Let's play Picadore de Frisch a bit more; one of his bigger chunks reads ""What I really hate about you guys is that you can NEVER accept the idea that someone else know more than you do about something.....oh, and I know much more than you do about climate change so don't bring that card out [unless willing to meet on a field of battle of his design]"

"you can NEVER accept the idea that someone else know [sic] more than you do about something"... Steve just can't stop with the self parody projections.

Steve, I started out as a lukewarmer, accepting of the mainstream IPCC view, and have degrees in physics and electrical engineering/computer science (including digital signal processing), both of which are applicable to atmospheric physics, and you do not have a bloody clue as to what goes into any of those fields of study. I can, and have, actually read the science for myself.

Let me repeat: Steven Frisch, You Do Not Have A Bloody Fucking Clue As To What Goes Into Any Of Those Fields Of Study. I'll make a wild guess the only "science" a polisci major like Steven Frisch would take would have a name like "Your Friend, the Amoeba", or General Science 4a and 4b, not applicable to any science major's course of study. Or even a life science major.

I could easily prepare an hour talk which would lay out a cogent, intellectually honest presentation of climate science as determined by the IPCC's favored climate scientists in the Assessment Reports at a level of a decent 12 grade high school physics class or half decent lower division college class.

I could then spend about 20 minutes demolishing it by pointing out where it has utterly failed in its assumptions and predictions, and why, all from original sources in the peer reviewed, established journals. I could do that in the chronologic order in which I read them myself (beginning in 2007 when I realized how badly I'd been lied to by journalists regarding climate science), or a chronological order in which they unfolded in the literature. The lazy way to present that material is to take the slideware from one of Jasper Kirkby's colloquia at CERN and edit it down to a few slides that tell the basic story. Lazy and very high quality, Kirkby is one smart guy; in fact, he's one of the few who actually did have poltics interfere with his research... he wanted to start the CLOUD experiment in the late '90's but the funding got killed until Svensmark published results from a simpler experiment (without a particle accelerator) in 2006.

Mainstream climate science has been systematically ignoring lines of inquiry regarding clouds, aerosols and cosmics they know can only weaken their arguments, which were weak to begin with. As James Lovelock has said,
"The great climate science centres around the world are more than well aware how weak their science is. If you talk to them privately they're scared stiff of the fact that they don't really know what the clouds and the aerosols are doing. They could be absolutely running the show. We haven't got the physics worked out yet. One of the chiefs once said to me that he agreed that they should include the biology in their models, but he said they hadn't got the physics right yet and it would be five years before they do. So why on earth are the politicians spending a fortune of our money when we can least afford it on doing things to prevent events 50 years from now? They've employed scientists to tell them what they want to hear. "

Frisch, if you have a point about the science, write it down and hit Post and don't make fucking excuses. There's no one to doubletalk and throw you off your stride. Write. It's pretty clear you're unable to do so, and so your we have your bluster instead.

steve frisch

You know, you really are just an arrogant little man, Greg.

The rules of the debate were that we could bring our experts; I recommended you bring your weatherman and the conspiracy theorist, but you can bring whomever you want.

But I am not going to waste my time debating this here...because here is not big enough... I want to embarrass you in public, with an audience, on tape, and replay it every time you open your mean little trap.


The weatherman and the conspiracy theorist (whoever the latter might be) aren't "my" people, Frisch. I met the "weatherman" once in Nevada City but that's another story for another time. It will piss people off but I can wait.

Yes, you might as well take your ball and go home. You can't make headway with words and reason; you need drama. That ain't me, babe.

For those of you who might want some science, the guys whose 2003 paper turned me from lukewarmer to skeptic to scoffer really is spending a year's sabattical courtesy IBM. Here's a relatively "accessible" (just maybe not for Frisch) paper on how they teased the 32 million year period oscillation in and out of the galactic plane... from ocean temperature proxy data. Not computer simulations. Here's a taste of his work at Princeton:

Frisch, if you need help, just ask.

"It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong"

BTW McKibben, an honored guest of KVMR not long ago, determined 350ppm CO2 as the maximum safe CO2 in our atmosphere, and named his organization for that number, 350. Please, tell us how that number was determined by McKibben, who spent his time at Harvard not in the science labs but as editor of the Crimson.

Mammals evolved in a 2000ppm CO2 atmosphere, and there was a worldwide ice age early in the Phanerozoic with perhaps 6000ppm CO2 or even higher. There's nothing sacrosanct about 350; it is, in essence, a number pulled out of McKibben's ass.


Please note Frisch just had to come out with the "arrogant little man" insult as his opening salvo, and his demands were to take or leave the "debate" as he wanted to structure it. I'd be "allowed" to bring anyone I wanted.

Sorry Steve, but if you want to create an event to show your greatness, you will have to find someone else. A real climate debate would be a feather in Nevada County's hat, but a Stephen Frisch should have nothing to do with it. No credentials, no gravitas. No science knowledge and, even more to the point, no clue who really does.

For KVMR, something more akin to the Breaking Bread series would be about right.


Why is it these Lefties must rely on manufactured science? When the facts don't meet their preconceived ideals, doctor the data.. Cook the books. NOAA busted doing just that.
Fake polar bear deaths. ECO ships getting caught frozen in sea ice in antarctica. In SUMMER no less. ( looking for melted ice... go figure that one out.)
Then there is the thermometers used to track "agw" set in the middle of parking lots, and next to heat exchangers on roof tops. ( Yup,, that will give an accurate reading.)

All those wild predictions of hurricanes. "the worst season is about to hit!".. then nuttn'.
Every prediction of doom and gloom has fallen flat. ( It's gotta suck when that happens.)
Oh,, wait a minute,, the North pole was to be ice free by 2015.. Uh,, how did that work out?
Now humanity is supposed to be extinct in 100 years. Rightttt... Sure... whatever ya' say.

The ECO gang sure has been batting a thousand. Nothing has happened as predicted.
But they sure lined their pockets with grand money...


Posted by: Walt | 22 June 2015 at 12:26 AM

Actually Walt I'm just sure that their predictive abilities are going to improve any day now.....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....any day now....

"Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary.


Ah, now we see the violence racism inherent in the system!

Seeee?!?! It's just like you said....another privileged white guy (okay, technically 1/2 white) engaged in cultural appropriation!!


He used...used.....that word!!!!! In public

Todd Juvinall

What is interesting about Obama using that word, he truly is a African/American. Momma was a white American woman and his traveling daddy was a African from Kenya. He has no American black in his body but he has the "race". That says that "race" is the paramount issue rather than just being a "black American".


Hey George.....yesterday Steve suggested that I was a "paid provocateur". Since you were identified in the same comment as a "Master Propagandist" the only conclusion I can reasonably come to is that you are my boss.

I've been commenting here for almost two years and haven't received a dime.......

Withholding wages is a serious matter. Is there something you want to tell me....confess if you will....before I go to the appropriate authority?

Todd Juvinall

Patricia Smith,

I just read a article about the ACLU defending a Indian (from India) pedophile in Berkley. His name is Lakireddy Bali Reddy.He would smuggle in 12 year old "low caste" Indian girls (his brother and sis-in-law claimed to be the parents) and used one of his apartment buildings in Berkley as the harem headquarters. Anyway, the local press, the San Francisco Chronicle gave it a "no, never mind" and it took a high school paper to break the story. When arrested (after being released originally) the ACLU though a sentence of eight years was just too great. One little girl died.

Anyway, Patricia Smith, could you please tell us all about this defense of this Berkley resident bu your ACLU organization? I was kind of shocked about the defense of the ACLU by you and the formation of a local chapter here in Nevada County. Perhaps there is a good explanation? If there is crickets from you I guess that means something none of us will like.?

Todd Juvinall

Fish 8:41 AM

While you were getting stiffed on pay, Steve Frisch was getting $226,000 dollars of taxpayer subsidized money. So perhaps he is the paid provocateur?


Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 22 June 2015 at 08:52 AM

Actually Todd I think Steve is merely a hobbyist and that his comments are separate from his employment. As mentioned....until yesterday I thought that this was the case with me. But based on his statement I think that somebody might owe me money! ;-)

Sometimes volunteer work crosses the line into "employment!

I really should thank Steve for looking out for my financial interests!

Todd Juvinall

Well maybe you are right fish. I seem to recall though that Steve Frisch as the CEO of SBC did some Prop 23 stuff. Seems he is one of those people we used to see at BOS meetings when we had a public hearing. A CEO would get up to the mike represning a eco group or no growth organization and claim to be speaking for them. He/she would later come to the mike and say they were now speaking for themselves!

Then we would get Frisch-like people who would speak up for three or four organizations! Always trying to gain more speaking time. Just like Frisch! We used to roll our eyes at those know-it-all yappers..

George Rebane

Gregory 1141pm - Excellent link Gregory. That seems to be the definitive ongoing research on cosmic rays impact on climate. Good report, and we should all look forward to their 2016 conclusions (except, of course, for members of Team Gore for whom the 'debate is over').

Todd Juvinall

Is Patricia on vacation? LOL!

Todd Juvinall

Apparently the issue of putting a ACLU chapter here has driven off someone?


Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 22 June 2015 at 10:09 AM

Nahh....Patricia has departed the field.....at least for the foreseeable future.

Todd Juvinall

I recall her telling us all with great pride about involving herself and others who care about people, about their ACLU chapters birth here. I simply asked why the ACLU would support a rich immigrant from India importing little girls for sex slavery over the little girls! Oh well. All this in Berkley!


No,, she is at the chapter headquarters crying about George and others here, and looking at ways to silence us. Papers from the courts will probably show up by Friday.
That's the new LIB tactic.

George Boardman

Regular readers of this blog know that Todd has trouble with spelling and English grammar. His reading comprehension isn't very good either.

I remember the Reddy case--despite what Todd wrote, it got plenty of coverage in the San Francisco Chronicle and other Bay Area media--so I did some checking to refresh my memory.

The ACLU represented Reddy's female victims--they were minors and had no family to speak for them--and assisted immigration attorneys in filing a civil suit against Reddy alleging negligence in the death of one of the girls. The suit was settled in 2004 for $8.9 million.

Try getting the facts straight next time.


George 9:52, thanks, and you're welcome. I think I'd posted that IAS link a few weeks ago but it's easy to lose the wheat in the chaff.

I think the definitive work on cosmic ray's impact on climate is Kirkby's Cosmics Leaving OUtdoor Droplets (CLOUD) experiment at CERN, but no one works in a vacuum. In fact, Kirkby's CLOUD was inspired by Svensmark's work, and a photo of a balding, greying Svensmark (his middle age spread is also depressingly familiar to me) at work is the middle of the IAS page I linked. In particular, it was Svensmark's Cosmoclimatology paper in 2007 that, with a cleaned up and stylized graphing of the same data, introduced me to Shaviv & Veizer 2003. Check out figure 8 (page 5)and tell me there isn't a STRONG relationship between galactic cosmic rays and ocean temperatures that is unmistakably cause and effect.

Steven Frisch of the "Sierra Business Council", I know you're out there, that's for you, too.

George Rebane

Gregory 1125am - hard to argue against that kind of correlation.

Todd Juvinall

Regular readers know that George Boardman is uauslly wrong on his facts here and in the Union on Monday's. But today he is correct. My source for the ACLU in the Reddy case was wrong. Anyone pedophile I slimed deserves my apologies. Good for GeorgeB, he finally got one right.


George, the correlation between CO2 and temps is pretty good too, except, with oceanic outgassing (pay attention here, Steve, it's high school level chemistry and has to do with dissolvability of gases in water), an increasing ocean temperature also causes CO2 to be released into the air weakens that correlation as an indicator of CO2 being causal.

The beauty of the SV03 (Steve, that means Shaviv & Veizer 2003, the "Celestial driver of Phanerozoic climate?" paper) is there is no bloody way an increasing ocean temperature can affect the rate of stars going supernova thousands of years ago.

BTW, Frisch, for his imaginary 'debate' suggested I could bring my weatherman and my conspiracy theorist. As far as I know I've never cited Anthony Watts (the obvious 'weatherman' reference) for anything though his website does a grand job of presenting both good and sometimes not so good climate information by others. However, I've still no clue whatsoever as to the identity of the "conspiracy theorist" that Frisch was also trying to hang around my neck. It certainly isn't one of the scientists I generally cite (like Shaviv, Veizer, Svensmark, Lindzen, Kirkby, Friis-Christensen...). Does anyone know who Frisch was trying to tie me to?

Steve, I know you're out there, you can make this easier on everyone by chiming and clarifying that claim.

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