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15 June 2015

Comments

George Rebane

To illustrate the above theses, here is Mr George Boardman's comment from the 11jun15 sandbox.

"I always find it interesting how freedom-loving conservatives, the same people who want to get government out of our lives because individuals can make better decisions that a bunch of bureaucrats, insist on telling me who I can marry, whether my wife or daughter can have an abortion (rape and incest are not excuses), want to force my kid to pray in school, and at the end of life, tell me how I can end it."

To this I would respond with 'who are these freedom-loving conservatives' who tell you who to marry, can have an abortion, force prayer in school, and restrict your exit?'

Michael R. Kesti

George Boardman 15Jun15 01:24 PM on Sandbox - 11jun15

For the record, I am a freedom loving conservative who wants government out of our lives and thinks that governments should not involve itself in marriage of any kind, has no objection to first term abortion, is not religious and has no intent to force anybody's kid to pray, and feels that if you're ready to off yourself you should be allowed to do so.

You cannot make such broad accusations and expect to be 100% correct.

George Boardman

If I had the time and inclination, I could spend days slogging through the conservative attempts in Republican-controlled state governments to preserve traditional marriage, outlaw abortion, open up the school house door to prayer, and tell people how they can end their lives.

Instead, I will just refer you to the current version of the Republican Party platform.

Michael R. Kesti

Science need not and should not disprove the verity of belief systems. Belief systems, by definition, allow believers to accept some ideas as factual without the need for proof. I support everybody's right to hold and express their beliefs and try to always respect those beliefs and long as there is no attempt to forced them on me.

Assemblywoman Shannon Grove crossed a line, however, when she said that she believed that God was punishing Californians for allowing abortion. That line is that she must know the mind of God in order to support her belief and, unless she is a Christ (an anointed one) or at least a prophet, she is not likely that privy to the LORD's thoughts.

In short, I disagree with the contention that she gave a perfectly plausible causal explanation, at least within the context of beliefs held by conventional Christians as I know them.

Michael R. Kesti

George Boardman 15Jun15 02:51 PM

You appear, then, to be making the error of equating conservatism with membership in the Republican Party.

Todd Juvinall

Sadly George Boardman is just another "brainwashed" person who actually believes what he wrote. The thesis of George Rebane above has hit the nail on the head. The left has been in charge almost all my 65 years, of the information. They use it in our schools to indoctrinate against anything not liberal. So we have to gather these poor people from the institutions and toss them into the real world where they finally experience true life.

I would suggest the policies of the left are very evident in other countries. Soon America could be in the throes of the same kinds of policies. China murdered female babies for many years and is certainly in the wombs of all their women. Any different than Planned Parenthood here? Most countries on the planet say marriage is between one man and one woman, yet the lift here says anything goes. Who is truly out of step with humanity? I say the left. Hard to get a baby from the wrong orifice. Besides, the issue is the term "marriage". Not the act of two men or two women deciding they are something for each other. All they had to do is pick a different word. Sort of what the homosexuals did with the word "gay". They swiped that word. So they could swipe one or make one up but the rest of the population has to bow to them? Sorry, not for me.

Regarding the bedroom. I certainly don't want the government involved in the bedroom. Where the libs came up with that is beyond me. I bet GeorgeB likes the government to tell him what to eat, how to drive, what kind of energy he uses and the kind of bedroom he can build!

Lastly (but there is so much more) the liberals have manipulated the social moree's of the country through tax policy. Also regulations. One only needs to read the local "zoning ordinances" of land use plans to see the total destruction of "choice" bt Americans especially the property owners. Boardman is just a brainwashed person, spewing the mantra of democrats.

fish

Posted by: George Rebane | 15 June 2015 at 01:51 PM

To this I would respond with 'who are these freedom-loving conservatives' who tell you who to marry, can have an abortion, force prayer in school, and restrict your exit?'

With the exception of a few stalwarts who are against marijuana legalization I see precious few examples of those that Mr. Boardman cites from those posting here regularly.

Perhaps you should send your complaint to the Republican party.

Todd Juvinall

Here you go George Boardman, the lnk to the present Republican Platform. Only 62 total pages, big type and searchable. I challenge you to read it and come back here with the list of the complaints it spawns for you. My guess is crickets. Oh, if you do please use copy/paste of the provisions you find objectionable.

https://cdn.gop.com/docs/2012GOPPlatform.pdf

George Rebane

GeorgeB 251pm - I'm afraid you stepped into something the contents of which you do not know. Here it is for your convenience -
https://www.gop.com/platform/

Mr Boardman you appear to be one of those in the majority of narrow-minded liberals who believe that if a person does not support the government's paying for something, then that person is against that something. But then I could be wrong.

MichaelK 258pm - "Assemblywoman Shannon Grove crossed a line, however, when she said that she believed that God was punishing Californians for allowing abortion. That line is that she must know the mind of God in order to support her belief and, unless she is a Christ (an anointed one) or at least a prophet, she is not likely that privy to the LORD's thoughts."

Have no idea what 'line' was crossed in stating one's belief. And I can assure you that in the Christian tradition there is absolutely no requirement for a believer to reliably "know the mind of God" in order to fervently believe in a specific instantiation of God's will. Moreover, we are taught that such knowledge of God's mind is not in our capacity when applied to most mundane cases of this world. Yet beliefs may endure, and I do thank God that our Constitution does not proscribe the good assemblywoman for her stated beliefs.

Michael R. Kesti

George Rebane 15Jun15 03:33 PM

It appears that I did not communicate well.

I agree that knowledge of God's mind is not in believers' capacity. One would have to know God's mind, however, in order to assert that California's drought is God's way of punishing California for allowing abortion. The line that Grove crossed, then, is that her belief is that she knows God's mind.

Is that better?

George Boardman

Here you go, Todd:

Start with page 10 of the Republican platform "A Sacred Contract: In Defense of Marriage," and work you way down to page 14.

If the Republican Party doesn't speak for conservatives, who does? You guys remind of Will Rogers' comment about the Democratic Party: "I don't belong to an organized political party..."

Michael R. Kesti

George Boardman 15Jun15 04:06 PM

If the Republican Party doesn't speak for conservatives, who does?

That's a problem for me, too, George.

fish

Posted by: George Boardman | 15 June 2015 at 04:06 PM

If the Republican Party doesn't speak for conservatives, who does?


Actually George nobody really speaks for conservatives. Not in D.C. anyway! Certainly not the Eastern establishment republicans!

Todd Juvinall

GeorgeB 4:06 PM

I asked for copy paste of the provisions you dislike (with explanation). You give us a page range. I have no idea what parts you disagree with or why. Enlighten us please. So please try again.

Regarding GOD's mind or whatever. I would say the woman has decided that the WORD, meaning the Bible, GOD's book, has something she is somehow using to make her statements. In my view, HE gave us free will and stays out of the crapola people do. But that doesn't sit well with some people. 1.8 billion Muslims thinks a dude is going to pop out of a well and he is GOD. People that believe that are close to a NUKE!

Account Deleted

I'm sure the good Mr Boardman wishes he could take back a few statements.
"... insist on telling me who I can marry..."
No one is telling you who to marry, Mr Boardman. No one.
"...whether my wife or daughter can have an abortion (rape and incest are not excuses)..."
Abortion involves another human life. I wasn't aware your wife or daughter had the god-like power to extinquish innocent human life. If they do, please give us the details.
"...want to force my kid to pray in school..."
No one can force anyone to pray anywhere. I think the issue is allowing students that want to pray to be able to do so. Something to do with the free expression of religion. Are you against it?

Jon

Scott,
..Abortion is legal. Many, many years now it has been affirmed to be. Your statement is untrue.

..In many religious-right dominated counties in America, you are still unable to marry who you want. Your statement is untrue.

Thanks for the opportunity to set the record straight on these 2 erroneous points you made.

Jon

Mr. Kesti, maybe you can take up your vision of real conservatism with Mr. Obermuller. Seems like quite a divergence.

Account Deleted

from jon the troll:
"Your statement is untrue."
What statement?
"In many religious-right dominated counties in America, you are still unable to marry who you want"
Unable? Really? You mean I can't marry my daughter? Oh, dear! What does this have to do with American conservatives?
You're way out of your league, jon. Give it up.

George Rebane

Jon 723pm - while it is true that most counties (not only "religious-right dominated") will not issue licenses for inter-species marriage, and marriages that are genealogically incompatible for the protection of offspring; could you be a bit more specific as to which counties keep you from marrying who you want.

We recall that homosexual marriages are being sorted out today across the country. For instance, Californians voted against such marriages but were overruled by the court. I'm not familiar with any religious factors that prohibit gay relationships having the full force of law equivalent to heterosexual marriages - the contention seems to be that a different label than 'marriage' should be used when same sex couples want to tie the knot.

fish

This is why I love her....the chutzpah....the audacity!!

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/15/politics/45-times-secretary-clinton-pushed-the-trade-bill-she-now-opposes/index.html

Hillary 2016!

Account Deleted

Well - the left didn't like 'stop and frisk' because scum of all colors known to the police as hoodlums were relieved of their illegal artillery. They claimed it violated their rights. Now we have the feds involved in local law enforcement. The left falls silent.
“We’ve been here for three years, (and) no incidents,” a man who works at D Avenue but did not want to identified told CBS2’s Diane Macedo. “And then stop-and-frisk has been repealed, so guys are walking around with guns again.”
Black lives only sorta matter sometimes once in a while.
So it's better to have the fed govt upholding local laws. I'll bet we can get them involved in every sort of local law enforcement.
Sounds good to the left.

Todd Juvinall

Jonnie can't produce facts. He is just a troll who bloviates liberal propaganda.

Jon

Ah yes, the predictable cartoon character just has to weigh in. Nothing to offer is Todd's theme.

Jon

Scott, how about you deal with the obvious subject of GAY marriage and counties in Alabama where judges won't officiate. But speaking of strawmen- the predictable animal or daughter example comes to the fore. Yeah Scott, we see that everyday!

Oh the horror of GAY MARRIAGE! Mostly Democrat voters too! Its called evolution of the human race.

Todd Juvinall

Jonnie, you have no proof but keep bloviating. Come on, a troll such as you has to sometimes supply a little proof. But, as usual you are a vacuous whatever.

Homosexual marriage was a state's right issue and to the credit of the fascists in the movement, somehow got it to the SCOTUS. I am satisfied that a state can and should be able to call its own shots. Then our Constitution has meaning.

I bet "jonnie" believes the "hands up don't shoot" was true too.

Account Deleted

"Scott, how about you deal with the obvious subject of GAY marriage and counties in Alabama where judges won't officiate."
What has that to do with my previous statements?
Still haven't answered my questions.
Run away, little jonny.

Jon

sorry Scott. Your previous statements dealt with marrying your daughter. No one is petitioning any court for that right.
I get it-no need to obfuscate- you detest the idea of gay marriage and think Jesus is going to come down and strike America if the practice is sanctioned by our nation.

Hay, what's you take on the Pope's major upcoming pronouncement on June 18 (now leaked to the press) about man made global warming and capitalism's destructive exploitive forces against the creator's natural world? All over the place today. Pope is spot on.

Don Bessee

OH!! MY!! Putrid piles of troll poop!! its back and as relevant as ever! ;-)

George Rebane

For the more clear-minded reader on global warming, I draw your attention to Russ Steele's 853pm comment on 'Scattershots - 14jun15'. Combine that with the Pope's issuing encyclical on AGW, and there can be no clearer evidence of state sponsored insanity purveyed wholesale.
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2015/06/scattershots-14jun15.html?cid=6a00e54f86f2ad883301b8d1289914970c#comment-6a00e54f86f2ad883301b8d1289914970c

Bill Tozer

My, no time to read all comments, but have enjoyed all the comments I have read so far, every one. Here is one person's take on the "girl that wanted to be black" currently in the news cycle. To me it illistrates one tiny wee bit piece of broken shell from Humpty Dumpy, aka, The Liberal Mind. Oh, never mind. They never had one, never will.

Dave Chappelle weighed in on the Rachel Dolezal scandal on Sunday when the comedian delivered the commencement address at his D.C. alma mater, the Duke Ellington School of the Arts.

“The world’s become ridiculous,” he said. “There’s a white lady posing as a black lady. There is not one thing that woman accomplished that she couldn’t have done as a white woman. There’s no reason! She just needed the braids! I don’t know what she was doing.”

Ben Emery

George,
You're incredible with how far off the mark you are with labels and the reasoning for why people might vote or not vote the way they do.

36% of eligible Americans voted in 2014 election, which resulted in your political party of choice gaining majorities. That means 19% of the electorate has chosen the direction of our government that you seem to think is so horrible. Maybe the the other 64% of voters have the right idea that the two major parties don't give us an option therefore voting is a fruitless exercise.

I personally will never skip a vote since so many people died giving me the ability to have a say in our government.

National Registration by the Numbers

independent of Democratic or Republican Party - 42%

Democratic Party - 31%

Republican Party - 27%

Jon

Someone needs to explain to me why some strange idiot in that well known racial hotbed of Spokane, WA is a national story.
No one cares about this very confused, weird and dishonest woman. Chappelle and many others are exactly right- its great comedy material.

Gregory

"Jon", citing gay marriage as an evolutionary step for the human race, apparently missed the component of biology that is required for evolution to take place. So did the Shakers.

No, the Republican Party is not called the Conservative Party for a reason... it's always been a bigger tent than just Conservatives, but with the role the conservative 0Evangelical wing has been playing, if you're a left-liberal wanting to point fingers...

With luck the GOP will nominate candidates I can vote for without holding my nose too hard but I won't be holding my breath. Maybe Bernie Sanders will pull a Ross Perot and make things interesting. You know, the Democratic Party has been taking the hard left for granted for far too long! Get rid of the hard left and maybe the center- and left-libertarians will be welcome in the Democratic Party again... which would also mean the GOP would have to move more libertarian to keep the folks who they get all their good ideas from in that big tent.

Bill Tozer

Dunno Jon @ 1042pm, but it is all over the blogs and very interesting debates equaling this to gender identity, Most people such our Brother Ben and his Traveling Salvation Show do identify with the poor, the oppressed, the poor flies that are having their wings ripped clean off by Mr. Male Fat Cat as we speak!, aka, minorities and Okies.

But even Brother Ben does not take identifying with the underdog to such a degree that he takes brown shoe polish to his skin and vies to be main speaker at some MLK Day address. Besides that, having a white European ancestry girl from Montana finding herself miraculously teaching Africana Studies at Eastern Wa U is in itself a compelling and intriguing story worthy of attention and discussion, IMHO..

Like, dude, try walking a mile in another's moccasins for once, you heartless dickless wonder. Be kind, scrot. Be gentle, jiz bucket, ok. I think Miss Dalezol and Bruce are two of the bravest people on the planet.

I just know I can make money off my Spokane Cut Flowe. She is quite the sap. What a wingnut, but I guess it all makes sense to those who are more understanding and nouturing than moi.

Gregory

Even the BBC Worldservice is covering the NAACP storu in Spokane... she's as black as Bruce Jenner is female, why not? It's the new normal. Or is it?

She may or may not be an idiot, "Jon" but it's clear she's a Democrat.

Adam Floyd

Speaking of Troll poop Mr. Bessee, how's that International Banking career coming along?

Stories, stories, stories.......

Bhahahahah!

fish

Posted by: Ben Emery | 15 June 2015 at 10:39 PM


Ah...the "democracy fetishist" weighs in. So....when can we expect you and that 90% of the electorate "who completely agree with me (you)" to usher in our "Radiant Progressive Future™"?

Todd Juvinall

It is my experience that people do what they believe is in their own best interest. The white babe wanted to be black, now Jenner wants to have a vagina so they do it. The desperate press would rather cover them then a 100,000 Tea Party parades. That is the press bias and people looking for their 15 minutes of fame are everywhere.

Regarding voting turnout. With all the stupid people turned out by our education system, I am glad they stay home and don't pollute the voting system with their ignorance. Not voting is a choice each person makes. It is more important to stay home and watch Oprah than to get in the car to the polls. Hell, we have done everything to allow the dopes to vote, same day registration, vote by mail, etc., and they still don't. I say GREAT!

fish

....now Jenner wants to have a vagina so they do it.


Where are all the Class Warriors on this one? The final "product" notwithstanding l'affaire Jenner boils down to a wealthy white guy with an expensive hobby! I figured we'd see the Emery twins and Jons of this world chastise him him for wasting all that money that could have been better spent on more Obamaphones!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpAOwJvTOio

Account Deleted

jon - the subject here is George's take on the strange reasoning power of the liberal mind. He was quoting Mr Boardman. Mr Boardman tried to show that American conservatives are hypocritical by way of some rather odd statements. One of them was "... insist on telling me who I can marry.." American conservatives are not trying to insist on who Mr Boardman can marry. I do believe it would be more accurate to say that most conservatives in this country would like to have the govt sanction only the marriage of 2 humans of the age of majority with one of the humans being biologically male and the other biologically female, and providing that neither of the 2 humans are closely blood related.
That seems to leave a rather large slice of humanity open to Mr Boardman to choose from in selecting a mate. I'm going to hazard a guess that Mr Boardman also would like to see most of these constraints placed on any marriage sanctioned by the govt, so how can it be only conservatives that - "...insist on telling me who I can marry..."?
I'm not sure where Jesus and his possible condemnation of our country came into play, perhaps you can point out a particular statement of mine that would support your strange idea.

Todd Juvinall

I remember when Michael Jackson did his best to become a white person. Now we have the white babe in Spokane wanting to be or claiming to be, a black. I heard of a white man who claimed he always related to being black and now has come out of the closet as one. This is what it comes to when reality is tossed and "feelings" prevail (ISIL is laughing their asses off). Apparently Jenner still has his junk and is taking his sweet time to have a "gina" installed. It is a major decision.

Marriage is now open to anything after thousands of years of it being one man one woman. My guess is we will see a NAMBLA suit soon so they can marry little boys. Mormons may file suit for plural marriages and fans of bestiality will file suit so they can marry their pet. The slippery slope is now occupied.

Jon

Your guess would be WRONG then Todd. Where is the evidence of that early phase of the slippery slope? Your imagination is out of control. A massive chunk of America is gay -ncluding people you know well; a microscopic particle of America dreams of sex with animals.

George Rebane

Does anyone have a number for that "massive chunk" of gay America?

Bill Tozer

Jon @ 7:42am. The more research that is done, the lower the % of the gay population as compared to the general population as a whole becomes. We were told that that percentage was 10% of the population and most took it as fact for years. Like, who cares. The latest research puts it under 3%, (again) with lesbians around 2% and gay men just over 2 %. This confirms an older study arriving at the same numbers and of which the authors of the research were lambasted as homophobes.

The gay marriage issue is in flux and trending towards legalization across the fruited plain. Birds of a feather flock together. The non-story of the cracker chick gives some insight to the working of the liberal mind, especially lying on her resume to achieve the greater good....er....her greater good. Heck, she was even on the citizens police commission, watching out for racist activity committed by law enforcement. She will get the boot from that position at the cop shop because the police don't take kindly to fraud on applications and desire all on the oversight board to have to integrity and ethics, something the liberal mind is void of when cloaked under umbrella of "the ends justify the means."

So, it's not even about Bruce's future mangina. It's about the liberals giving him the award for the most courageous Person of The Year and for his fight to help others. Bruce beat out a guy that started homeless shelters and soup kitchens that feed tens of thousands daily, and even beat out a man who took it upon himself to rally folks to donate ONE MILLION pints of blood to blood banks. Bruce, according to the liberal mind, did more for society than any other altruistic soul in America. Go figure.
So, Jon and Mr. Boardman, it's not about who to marry, forcing kids to pray in the classroom, sending abortion seekers into the dirty back alleys in the dead of the darkest nights. Nah, coming out of the closet trumps all this in the Libhole Mind

Todd Juvinall

1.8% of the population is estimated to be homosexual. Jonnie, are you one?

Gregory

Todd, stifle.

Regarding Jenner, s/he's a troubled soul and I hope their actions give them some relief but I wouldn't bet on it.

Regarding the white/black lady, she's a troubled soul who won't make the fortune Jenner is poised to make.

Bill Tozer

Gregory @ 9:30am. Of course "she's a troubled soul who won't make the fortune Jennifer is poised to make."
You know why?? I will tell you why because I just channeled by inner lib. 1). because she (the Spokane Blue Eyed Susan Wildflower) is a woman. In our sexist society, she will hit the class ceiling put in place by the good old boys. And 2). Because Jenner is a greedy self seeking Republican and we all know that Republicans, Mormons, and Jews control all the money.

To be fair and balanced, I never met a broke destitute gay person in my life. Also, kudos to my Blue Eyed Susan Daisy for breaking the color barrier.

Jon

Why do you ask about me, Todd? What would be the next response if I said YES? You are a real man's man, ha? The sanctity of marriage..

Percentage is higher, less than 10%. But your argument was about some slippery slope involving kids and animals. That's a really dated and ignorant argument in 2015. When the court cases come forward for them, let us know.

Best heed the advice of Gregory, Todd.

Todd Juvinall

Naw, I will speak my piece. Gregory can stifle himself if he desires. I try not to tell people that, I encourage them to speak their piece. I said a slippery slope because it is already happening. Amonh the Hmong immigrants child marriage and child rape are part of their "culture". We have about 300,000 Hmong in America and they are doing their best to get their "culture" legal here.

The slippery slope is occupied and has been for a while. One thing about liberals though is they never give up. Today's perversion is chipped away for legitimacy and we see it in just about every part of the American historic culture. If you are a homosexual Jonnie, that is certainly your choice and go getuum. the 1.8% of the country that is homosexual has certainly won a lot of battles for the slope. What a amazing country.

Todd Juvinall

Oh and regarding "transgender". The medical experts call it a mental illness. So, Jenner may be eligible for ObamaCare. The white gal who thinks she's a black person may also be eligible for Ocare. Along with the inmates who want to have the taxpayers pay for their operations I'd say American legal has lost it's noggin! It may be mentally ill.

Jon

Todd, 10:14. Wow, it must really surprise you to know that the largely conservative medical profession has actual professionals devoted to diagnosing and treating those types of issues, and they get paid for it too! Many even vote Republican.

Man, old John Adams is rolling in his grave! What is the world coming to? :)

Todd Juvinall

No Jonnie, it is diagnosed and considered a mental illness. You are simply ignorant about that. The rest of your comment above is gibberish.

George Rebane

From the 15jul14 Washington Post on the size of the "massive chunk" - "Less than 3 percent of the U.S. population identify themselves as gay, lesbian or bisexual, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported Tuesday in the first large-scale government survey measuring Americans’ sexual orientation."

Now it's plausible to accept that a person finally declaring him/herself to be transgendered has gone through some considerable mental trauma. What is the clinical assessment for such people before they are considered eligible to have their plumbing rearranged? Does it vary by state? What are the rights of normal people in their dealings with transgendered people?

Todd Juvinall

Only Jonnie knows, along with the "Shadow".

Gregory

Todd, challenging others to state whether they are gay is out of bounds. Makes me think you might be a closet case yourself, along with "Jon". STIFLE.

"Jon", I guess the glossy advertser isn't keeping you busy today. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5) of the American Psychiatric Association has a separate chapter for Gender Dysphoria. It is a mental illness; to say otherwise is to admit you stigmatize mental illness. S/he's got real problems. My choice in general is not to make things even worse for people with real problems, except for a chosen few like Pelline and Frisch who are asking for it.

Regarding the number of gays and lesbians, it's pretty clear the actual numbers are below 5% and I wouldn't be surprised if 2% isn't damn close. The problem "Jon" has is dealing with the Tea Party having 10 times as many adherents than such a major force within Democratic Party politics.

Todd Juvinall

Gregory, I have no idea what you are talking about. I am totally hetro and like girls. I think based on his, Jonnie's" assertions, the question I asked is apropos. I recall when I was asked those questions from Frisch and Jeffie and others. Seemed to be OK then?

The issue of mental illness in these people who want to be the other sex means the responsibility to fix the brain is up to them. So far they have been unable to convince scientists and doctors that it is immutable. We see the drinking lobby has now made alcoholism a "disease" which qualifies it for ObamaCare.

Walt

On the subject of the LIB mind,, I give you the fake black chick.
No wonder she looks like Side Show Bob from the Simpsons.
She even tried to claim to be Indian at one point, and born in a tee pee.
A list of her LIB fibs have been compiled here.
http://thoughtcatalog.com/daniel-hayes/2015/06/rachel-dolezal/

Another case that shows Liberalism is a mental disorder.

Todd Juvinall

Liz Warren and this gal should start a club.

Jon

Todd, news flash: alcoholism IS a disease. Has been for quite a while. Yes, treatment should be covered under insurance. Todd, you are just figuring this stuff out?

Todd Juvinall

Alcoholism is a choice. You are just an enabler Jonnie. More excuses for bad choices in life.

Jon

Congrats Todd. Your take on alcoholism takes the prize as the single most ignorant comment you've ever posted. God you are dumb.

George Rebane

Re Jon's 1153am - Are then kleptomania, disposition for crack, heroin, ... , committing fraud, or propensity to disambiguate (lie) also diseases?

Todd Juvinall

Jonnie, you are totally ignorant on most issues here and now you really have proven it on alcoholism. Tell us all here that if it is a disease worthy of ObamaCare, how is it it can be defeated by the use of brain power? Jeeze you are so ignorant. But hey, I am debating a troll so maybe I am ignorant too.

Gregory

Re GR's 12:16, sometimes. You forgot Narcissism, which also has a prominent spot in the DSM. "Jon" should be able to tell you all about it.

Todd, this might be a new one for you but there was a study that measured arousal of men viewing porn (it's OK, prudes, it was for Science!). Gays responded to gay porn, Straights responded to straight porn, and there was some crossover. But the self identified straights who were openly hostile to homosexuals also responded to gay porn, big time (or little time as the case may be).

Pretend to not be a closet case, act like you don't care who puts what where as long as it isn't you.

Jon

George re: 12:16, come one now. You like to deal with facts and things settled. Please find a single reputable medical citation that says alcoholism is not a disease. Cannot speak to other conditions, but alcoholism is the subject and the settled medical fact is that it is a disease like cancer, heart disease, etc.

Gregory

Getting drunk is a choice, alcoholism is a disease, but no, not like cancer, heart disease etc. Before the drinking got out of hand, there was choice.

Alcoholism generally involves a tipping point where choice is diminished, unlike cancer, Guam or global warming.

Jon

Gregory, I would say for many diagnoses of diabetes, cancer and heart disease, there certainly WAS a choice before the behaviors and symptoms got out of control. The choice to smoke, or consume 10,000 calories per day in sugary processed foods come to mind. But as you can confirm, words have meaning and whether we like it or not, alcoholism is a disease, no matter what led up to the diagnosis.

Jon

On the subject of narcissism, political LOSER Donald Trump got some of the base all roiled up today with red meat comments about Mexican Americans. Ah to be a Republican Spokesperson. No, his comments were not exactly helpful to a Party desperate to grab a decent share of Latino voters. Thanks Donald!

"Hours after Donald Trump launched into an anti-immigrant tirade during his presidential campaign announcement and claimed that Mexican immigrants are rapists and drug dealers, a top Republican party official has done nothing to denounce those comments.

Unreal.

Sean Spicer, the Republican National Committee’s Chief Strategist & Communications Director, told CNN that Trump’s comments were “not helpful to the cause” of making the Republican party inclusive to Latino voters. But almost immediately, Spicer pivoted to the topic of improving border security".

George Rebane

Jon 101pm - I take that to mean that for some reason (inconvenience?) you chose not to answer my 1216pm.

Walt

Exibit #2 of The LIB mind is in need of professional help.
Our water problems are a direct result of LIB thinking, and now one town is paying the price.
http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2015/06/16/california-water-cuts-leave-city-days-away-from-running-out-of-water/

Account Deleted

jon just gave us another example of the liberal mind. The Donald may or may not have made certain comments, but all we get from jon is an opinion of what The Donald said. No link to any actual video or transcript. This is a common thread with lefties. They rarely come up with full text or video. I like to get the facts before I have an opnion.
Most of the union literature that was passed out where I worked always loved to get the Grubers fired up about how evil some one was with out any real facts as to what the person had done or said. It was always just an opinionated summary that was to be digested whole without any thinking involved.
I'll have to look up what The Donald actually said.

Todd Juvinall

Alcholism is a choice. If a person wants to be in a drunken stupor no one is stopping them. Alcohol is a legal product on the shelves of most stores. A person can choose to buy it and they can choose how much they want to consume. If they continue to consume large quantities and don't stop, they have a addictive problem. It is not a disease. The idea that it is a disease is a most recent opinion.

Regarding homosexual porn. I have never watched any such thing. But to those who may have an issue they try and say hey, If you are against it you must be a clandestine consumer of it. That is just a bunch of hooey. Anyone that believes that is unhinged.

Don Bessee

I thought narcissism was always that 'jon' things thing. It seems to be having a parentheses dysfunction day @124. So much for that degree in rhetoric. lol Can we say ccc?

Walt

Uh,, "jon",,, About those poor innocent illegals.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jun/15/121-murders-attributed-illegal-immigrants-released/

Bill Tozer

Jon, this is hot off the press. You probably have been away from the 12 Steppers for awhile. Disclaimer first: I have not drank or tasted or even inhaled one drop of booze in many a year. And yes, I am so dry I am a fire hazard.
With yaddy yaddy said, I heard from someone in alcoholism research just Sunday that alcoholism just got renamed a disorder, not a disease. Something like "alcohol intolerance compulsion falling off the bar stool crawling home to the wrong house during broad daylight every darn day disorder." So, if Todd says it is not a disease, he happens to be in the know. Personally, when nice folks sincerely ask me if I would like one of their special made good stiff drinks or a gallon and a half of vino or even a refreshing cold beer on a warm day, I always reply with the same line. "No thanks, I have had enough." Disease, disorder, whatever floats those pocket protector wearing, clipboard holding, coke bottle glasses adorned pointy heads' boat over in the Fruit Loops aisle.

You have to be deeply disturbed and have some serious issues to ever get in the nuthouse field. I am done with my alcoholism research, along with my cocaine, crank, crack, rock cocaine, gambling, sex addition, pull my finger research, knock on wood.
No thanks, I have had enough. And I done as well with craft time in the ward on Wednesdays. I had enough of the Lithium Scuffle as well. I may be crazy, but I ain't stoopid.

Jon

Scott, any reference to a widely watched video- such as Trump today- can easily be found on YouTube or thru one of hundreds of links on google. Watch it. Nothing is more easily found in the world than a Donald Trump promotional video.

Todd, thanks for continually repeating your incorrect statement about alcoholism. As several here would say- classy. :)

George, sorry I did not take the time to look up each of those conditions. Nothing intentional- they were not the subject. I would guess they are not diseases (but kleptomania?). But perhaps you can explain your point. Do you need me to cite the Mayo Clinic's reference to alcoholism as a classified disease? Pretty easy to find.

George Rebane

For those who want to know what Donald Trump actually said in his announcement for becoming a presidential candidate -
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2015/06/16/full_speech_donald_trumps_presidential_announcement.html

And here's the transcript -
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/transcript-donald-trump-announces-his-presidential-candidacy/

Walt

One can say Liberalism is tied to the addictive nature of some folk. LIBS are addicted to other people's money. they have to have it. If they can't take it in some form or fashion, they hate the person they can't drag down to their own financial level. yes class envoy
needs to be labeled a "disease", and a person afflicted should be entitled to a gov. handout, and or recovery program.

Paul Emery

Walt

"Libs addicted to other peoples money?" How about the bloated filthy rich 1% who would happily produce their products using slave labor (which is condoned by the TPP) than pay a humane wage for hard work.

Todd Juvinall

I think "jonnie" has a lib disease called "noseeum" But the troll lives in ignorance is no never mind to me.

Bill Tozer

Kleptomania is such old news, jonnie. It's been several years now since the klepto debate was settled. Many moons ago, an employer fired an employee for stealing everything not SuperGlued down. The employee sued and won a handsome settlement. Seems that kleptomania is a disability recocognized by the Americans with Disabilities Act and Da Man wrongly fired a disabled person solely cause they were disabled with kleptomania, a violation of Federal Law..
That was a long time ago. Just about the time a Navajo working for the State of New Mexico suited and won another handsome award for being wrongfully terminated from his State job. Seems his religionious practices included smoking lots of peyote buttons, which or course, let to his victory before the bench. Being high of peyote at work is not really coming to the job hallucinating or doing drugs. The pious soul was merely practicing his ancient Native American religious ceremonies, quite frequently as a matter of fact. Oh, in case you were wondering what the aggrieved did for the State of New Mexico (the state with the motto "Land of Enchantment"), why, he was a drug counselor of course. The Liberal Mind is a vast untapped resource.

Todd Juvinall

Paul Emery 2:30 PM

You may be misguided about the 1%. I think you may in fact be talking about the communist Red Chinese who actually do use slave labor and send the Iphone over here that is in your pocket.

The so-called 1% (a misnomer (lie) created by Occupy Wall Street commies) actually pay great wages here and have already spread the wealth you so dearly believe is yours. Hell, the Feds income is at the highest ever and the corporations (you know those "peopl-less rights businesses) pay a load of billions into the pot. Sorry but I have simply heard enough of the whining by lazy ass people wanting the money of those that actually work and succeed.

Jon

Todd its OK, really OK if you want to play a dunce on here in the face of facts.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/alcoholism/basics/definition/con-20020866

Michael R. Kesti

Paul Emery 16Jun15 02:30 PM

How do you know that the TPP condones slave labor?

Todd Juvinall

Jonnie, you can lionk where you want but I am correct. Try harder. The Mayo clinic is a definition, their definition. Nothing more. Tozer is correct.

George Rebane

PaulE 230pm - Ah, another person who knows what a "humane wage" is, better than the person working for the inhumane wage. Now the inhumane wage payer has no obligation to even provide the worker a job, let alone one that he is willing to take. You always have to remember that the worker at whatever wage is working the best available alternative to him. But that may be a too complex concept in behavioral economics.

How about this? Paying increased "humane wages" will increase the cost of products, a cost that will be passed on by the manufacturer and everyone else in the distribution chain. It's easy enough to estimate such increases in the price the end-user will pay. How about all the people who are truly concerned about minimum and other humane wages take it upon themselves for contributing the marginal price increases to the poor or those receiving inhumane wages. Such contributions can be handled by a private 501c3 clearing house that would identify worthy recipients and manage the cash distributions.

With such an approach, the truly compassionate progressives would not have to reach into pockets other than their own to bring social justice into our economy. They would not have to promote yet bigger and more intrusive government in achieving such good feelings from their altruism. And who knows, such organizations may catch on with enough people who could voluntarily banish inhumane wages from our economy. And good people like you could even start contributing a capella, and enjoy those good feelings before things get really organized everybody starts doing it. What do you think?

Walt

THAT struck a nerve. The only thing stopping people from making a buck are the LIB created regulations on free enterprise. Call Sac. Paul, there are more regulations that need to be written. There are still people figuring out how to make a profit in Ca.
But it's fine and dandy to make a profit growing and selling dope. ( that's LIB approved)

Paul Emery

Kesti

Because they are including Malaysia as one of their partners without stipulation.

Here's some documentation.

"WASHINGTON -- President Barack Obama's effort to include Malaysia in a major pending trade pact has baffled human rights advocates, who see it as a reward for a regime with one of the world's worst human trafficking records. But the myriad interests involved in the trade fight include some very large American corporations, which are currently padding their profits with labor costs kept low by modern-day slavery in Malaysia.

Major U.S. electronics brands, including Intel, AMD, Apple, Hewlett-Packard, Texas Instruments and Dell, have relied on Malaysian manufacturing for years -- either in their own factories, or through facilities operated by their suppliers. Computer processors, hard drives, smartphone parts and other consumer electronic devices are all part of the slavery system -- more than one-fourth of all workers in the Malaysian electronics industry are victims of forced labor, according to a damning 2014 report commissioned by the U.S. Department of Labor."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/02/obama-trade-malaysia_n_7495750.html

Paul Emery

George writes:

"Now the inhumane wage payer has no obligation to even provide the worker a job, let alone one that he is willing to take. You always have to remember that the worker at whatever wage is working the best available alternative to him. But that may be a too complex concept in behavioral economics."

George, taking advantage of human suffering for personal wealth is immoral by any estimation. Perhaps the filthy rich could make a little less profit and keep the cost of the product the same.

Bill Tozer

Walt, come on now. You got to feel sorry for the pot heads. Look, they have no clinical disease (well maybe they feel dis-ease when paranoia comes a'knocking), no medical disorder, no disability, no nothing. Sad, they don't even have a good old fashioned ailment with a fancy name to hang their hats on. No nothing for those who are daily puffers of grass for decades. This is outrageous. Something needs to be done to bring our disenfranchised pot heads into the disease/disorder/disability fold. It is time to bring our poor nameless dope smoking banana heads in from out of the cold.
Show some empathy for our lost ones, Mr. Walt. Imagine sitting around the pickle barrel and everyone talking about their disease/disorder/disability/OCD and the potheads have to sit there silently, unable to contribute....because they have been forgotten about or weren't in line when they were passing our medicinal labels and plaques. This injustice must be addressed ASAP.

George Rebane

PaulE 312pm - I take it that you do not want to respond to my 249pm recommendation, and instead add to your knowledge of how to dispose of other people's money by claiming to also know the proper level of profits that are commensurate with associated risk. Can you spell H-U-B-R-I-S?

The CCC is on extra call today - first Jon ignores my 1216pm, and now you do the Social Justice Sidestep with my 249pm.

Paul Emery

George

Your 2:49 is BS. Do we have any moral obligations in our quest for wealth? It's no wonder that your view of free enterprise glamorizes the late 1800's when fortunes were made on the backs of cheap labor and free land obtained by the exploitation of weaker cultures (imperialism and colonialism).

Walt

Well now. Paul now can take the Progressive system full circle. From being the cure to the problem, to being the problem. Thank your own pal,,... LIBS drove jobs into the hands of under paid labor. Yup,, Big union and their obscene pay scales. ( Made the Twinkie no longer a U.S. product) Uh,, back in the day,, how much did UAW demand the windshield wiper installer be paid? ( 80 bucks an hour if memory is right) Yes,, LIBS killed Detroit.
Not to mention the Gov. did a great job with GM.. Do look up how much the taxpayer go hosed in that deal.

Then there is LIB pushed regulation after regulation from the untold number of alphabet gov. agencies business had to comply with. ( drive up the costs big time) You think any of that played a part in driving jobs outa here?

Then add the highest corp. tax on the third rock from the Sun. All thanks to the brain damaged Left.

Now throw the religion of the unholy church of AGW, demanding even more gov. intervention.

Ya.. Blame the business man for all our whoowwsss.

Thank your own that a small plastic toy that takes 4 cents to make here can be made cheaper and still be sent by the boat load here (including shipping)to undercut the American made one.

George Rebane

PaulE 326pm - Well, that is one way to debate foreign trade - climb marble tower, and from there impose arbitrary moral standards whose refutations are then dismissed as BS. And what is even more humorous (ominous?) is that from such minds come all kinds of opprobrium against people of faith whose beliefs are at least as well founded as those of the self-socially just from whose numbers have come the most recent of humanity's zealots to march those who resist to the wall, gallows, and gas chambers. Pretty strong stuff you spout there.

But to put your mind at ease as to where I stand - in my quest for wealth I have the obligation to follow the law and embrace morals which are only mine (not yours) to determine.

Todd Juvinall

The left has no answers to questions like GeorgeR's. They simply stir the pot of hate and envy. They cannot even accept the facts that American workers are pretty damn well off. Well at least the ones that work. The massive laws and regultions and Alphabet soup executive police aganicies remove billions form the very pockets of the people Paul Emery "cares" about.

What is the proper wage here in America Paul Emery?

Regarding Malaysia and the rest in these trade deals. America trades goods and services and my guess is that your philosophy of interference in other countries labor and business practices is Pollyanna-like. If those countries interfered in ours my guess is that would not go over to well. What if they said we have an unfair advantage because our workers are better educated therefore placing theirs at a disadvantage? Tariff us for that?

But all we get is crickets from the left. I do say though that I am impressed with the staying power of the concept the USSR and its progeny had. It is really rampant here in our liberal brethren.

Jon

Paul re: your 3:26, moreover, it was the lack of apparent recognition of a moral obligation of unrestsricted/unregulated capitalism that led directly to the OWS movement, which was certainly one for The Mittster's subsequent conclusive defeat. It wasn't about the Tea Party staying home, it was the fact that a major face of unfettered capitalism was full front and center in a quest to lead the country.

Jon

Walt, many would hope that the Twinkie would forever disappear as the symbol of an American product, or actual American product. Speaking of diseases caused by choices...

But seriously, what would have been your solution in 2008 in regards to GM? There are hundreds of thousands of jobs that would not be there today if not for government intervention. Yes, the government did good.

Paul Emery

So Todd you have no problem with the exploitation for profit of the poor and desperate to bring cheaper consumer goods to the American consumers and consequently undercuting American workers.

George, there is no "marble tower" when we're talking about basic human decency by not taking advantage of the poor, desperate and weak for profit and gain. How about bring back slavery in corporate owned slave states with fenced in workers forced to work to eat. Is there any moral boundary in the search for profit?

Jon

Todd 3:48, the lower tier American worker is well off? WHERE? In CA- where a $8/job will help cover a (bare minimum) $600/mth family housing cost for the cheapest dive in town, plus food plus transport plus everything else required to live a life above survival mode?

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