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29 July 2015

Comments

Michael R. Kesti

I stopped listening to KVMR a few years ago when one of their announcers followed up a syndicated story concerning Mother's Day with the statement that she loves her mother despite the fact that she votes Republican. This evening after George's commentary aired the announcer followed up the closing disclaimer with statements indicating that he doesn't share George's views and expressing his admiration of Planned Parenthood. It was pathetically amateur and the contrast with George's well considered and supported views was striking.

Russ

AP: LOS ANGELES – A temporary restraining order has been issued preventing an anti-abortion group from releasing any video of leaders of a California company that provides fetal tissue to researchers. The group is the same one that previously shot viral covert video of a Planned Parenthood leader discussing the sale of aborted fetuses for research.

The Los Angeles Superior Court order issued Tuesday prohibits the Center for Medical Progress from releasing any video of three high-ranking StemExpress officials taken at a restaurant in May. It appears to be the first legal action prohibiting the release of a video from the organization.

The truth is really hard for the left to deal with when the facts are so stark.

George Rebane

Russ 703pm - Russ, such restraining orders are always issued to serve some beneficial social purpose. What was the stated reason for issuing this restraining order?

Russ

George@07:07PM

Here is the link to the AP story.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/07/29/restraining-order-issued-against-anti-abortion-group-video/

It is now clear to me what the legal reason, however according to this story there are nine more videos to be dribbled out, drip, drip, drip. The injunction maybe to stop the drip, drip. . . of horrific images.

WASHINGTON — David Daleiden, founder of the Center For Medical Progress (CMP), told conservative talk radio host Sean Hannity Tuesday there are nine more sting-operation videos that reveal Planned Parenthood’s operations.

“We have close to 300 hours total of undercover video that was gathered during a 30 month long in depth investigative journalism study of how Planned Parenthood sells the body parts of the babies they abort,” Daleiden said, noting that each highlight video released will have the full footage posted on their website without any edits.

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2015/07/29/nine-more-undercover-videos-ready-to-drop-on-planned-parenthood/#ixzz3hL9w3asL

Don Bessee

California is a two party consent to record phone calls state. There is no expectation of privacy in public places per SCOTUS for recording purposes. The temp order is only until the hearing (long time now with the court budget issues, we can talk about that) its in mid Aug. There is an argument that some of the recordings were not in a public place and could have tripped over the voice recording clause. These rules vary widely across the country. I saw an article that had 11 of these videos in the wings from across the country and the CA case is for I believe 3 of those. The drip, drip, drip of the truth will go on with our without the CA case. Guess the progressives care more for a tourist attraction critter than the what, hundreds, thousands, hundreds of thousands of these poor kids?

Walt

And wouldn't you know it,, from sleepy little Placerville of all places.

Bill Tozer

Dr. Rebane. During my current transitional phase, I have been listening to more and more KVMR lately and caught your on air commentary. Your voice does not match your picture, but I digress. Took a lot of huevos rancheros to say what you felt in Nevada City of all places.

The thing that struck me most was you saying that Planned Parenthood claims only 3% of its budget goes to abortions. I was stuck by that because 1) if only 3% of their budget goes for killing the fetuses, then they must pass out boat loads of free condemns or else they are running the operation with one heck of a bloated overhead. 2) If only 3% of Planned Parenthood's budget goes to sucking the brains out of fetuses with ten fingers and ten toes and a heartbeat, then why all this gloom and doom if somebody proposes nipping their budget around the edges. They cry foul and always say we are going back to the dark alley days and poor women won't be able to get their fetus's spinal cord snipped and the parts sold to the highest bidder. At least ISIS doesn't sell the heads rolling on the ground. Maybe they play soccer with the severed heads, but they aren't in it for the money like PP is.
Wonder what kind of post abortion grief counseling they offer? Lord only knows how many women take that guilt to the grave with them. Never a happy dance leaving the clinic, only remorse. Please exit to your right. Next patient please.

George Rebane

BillT 922pm - Mr Tozer, I said nothing of PP's budget, but only of its claimed 'services' which are stated at 3% of those offered. A service may be counted as an office visit during which counseling is offered, or even perhaps more than one service during a visit if multiple functions are performed or people are seen. In that manner, the abortion itself can be counted as simply one service. But you can bet the ranch that considerably more than 3% of their budget goes to abortions since that is by far the most expensive clinical service offered.

Bill Tozer

"However my views are not shared by KVMR." Understatement of the century, my good doc.

Opps, just caught your response. I was driving up an old bumpy dirt and rock road when you came on. I just read the written word you penned and yes, it clearly states "services", not budget. I was 100% wrong. No excuses.
Ok, what consists of the other 97% of the services offered? Cake walks and bake sales?And, to be honest as you briefly touched, Planned Abortion in the Hood does indeed offer a service that is disaportionaly targeted..er..used by our Black sisters and Latino sisters, especially in New York, New England, and wherever people of color congregate. Kind of similar to profiling. Next time I hear Younger Emery decry a disaportionate number of persons of color are incarcerated or subjected to Stop and Frisk or his long long lists of grievances along those lines, I will sadly point out the disaportionate murdering of Black unborn children. Where is the social justice? Have we no heart? Or, just let it ride. The topic is not for the squeamish.
Sadly, this should not be a political issue. We witness daily the devaluation of life via gangbangers, random acts of violence, etc as evidenced by your post "Do we invite carnage?" The answer is yes. But video games designers and Planned Parenthood have found a way to profit from it all. Anyone care to buy a house in Detriot for 500 bucks and move in for a month or rent a crash pad in Chicago for a couple of weeks? You will witness the sum total of many things, with the devaluation of the human life in the forefront.

Todd Juvinall

Looks like the usual suspects from the left have nothing to say.

Walt

The Left is sure warped. Defend the practice of snuffing innocent life,(and selling off the parts) yet fight tooth and nail to keep murderous thugs on death row alive. "How inhuman that the chance they might feel the slights discomfort when they get executed."

Gregory

So much for "less crunchy".

Patricia Smith

A Catholic Nun summed up the pro-life position perfectly:

"I do not believe that just because you're opposed to abortion, that that makes you pro-life. In fact, I think in many cases, your morality is deeply lacking if all you want is a child born but not a child fed, not a child educated, not a child housed. And why would I think that you don't? Because you don't want any tax money to go there. That's not pro-life. That's pro-birth. We need a much broader conversation on what the morality of pro-life is."

However, I agree that abortions should happen within the first three or four months of the pregnancy unless problems arise that could jeopardize the life of the mother. Just like Dr. R, I have no problem with selling fetal tissue that could improve the quality of life for a living human being. It's no different than using body parts from a person who is dying.

TheMikeyMcD

I sincerely pray that God does not judge me for paying taxes to a government that encourages, funds and enables murder (abortion at any stage; with or without 'compensation', war, etc).


I am thankful for Rebane's courage.

Michael R. Kest

Patricia Smith 30July15 03:54 PM

I'd agree with your anonymous Catholic Nun if government, i.e. taxes, was the only way to provide food, education, and housing for children.

Organs harvested from the dead (Did you really mean "dying"?) are donated rather than sold and that Planned Parenthood is selling fetal organs is at the heart of the controversy.

Account Deleted

"In fact, I think in many cases, your morality is deeply lacking if all you want is a child born but not a child fed, not a child educated, not a child housed."
Who are these supposed folks?
Who is 'you'? Names? Examples?
Must be flesh and blood - no straw men will be allowed.
I see that P. Smith thinks it's okie dokie to kill an innocent human at 4 months of age.
Why not later? What's the difference?

Bonnie McGuire

Unfortunately, this is the early stage on the calloused path to kill all unwanted people in the future that has happened in other countries in the past. Germany, Russia, China....creating a chosen race, getting rid of political enemies...or only keeping the most productive slaves......whatever reason the rulers decide. It's disgusting and a frightening tyrannical road to take...much like those teenagers killing other teens just to experience what it feels like to kill someone. Someone else's life doesn't mean anything.

Patricia Smith

You, Scott, among others seem to fit that description. You bitch about gov't entitlements for the poor continuously. So there is one example assuming you are not a straw man. Abortion is the last result of PP. They offer education, birth control, and healthcare for women (all of which most conservatives in Congress oppose). I think you guys have something against sex!

The difference in aborting a 3 or 4 month old fetus is that it can't survive on its own so it is not yet a viable human being. It's OK if you don't support abortion. Just don't have one, but don't emulate the dreaded "gov't" by telling us what we can do because you don't like it.

You guys crack me up with your name names - like you ever do anything but generalize that all liberals think alike.

fish

You guys crack me up with your name names - like you ever do anything but generalize that all liberals think alike.

It's a huge time saver Patricia. Like leftys who call anyone who doesn't like Obamas policies a racist,

fish

Posted by: Patricia Smith | 30 July 2015 at 07:12 PM

You, Scott, among others seem to fit that description. You bitch about gov't entitlements for the poor continuously.

Damn right......just like Imperial Grand Wizard Greenspan has commanded us to do!

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/07/29/alan-greenspan-this-is-extremely-dangerous.html

Account Deleted

"You, Scott, among others seem to fit that description."

Oh really - could you please provide us all with some sort of evidence that I have ever advocated:
"...not a child fed, not a child educated, not a child housed."

"I think you guys have something against sex!"
you're getting desperate, Patricia, please stick to the topic.

"The difference in aborting a 3 or 4 month old fetus is that it can't survive on its own so it is not yet a viable human being."

Children can't survive on their own for a least a decade or 2. With Democrats, it seems to be never, but I digress.
There are people in the hospital that need intensive medical care or they will die. Are they disposable?
All humans in the womb are 'viable' unless something goes drastically wrong. Once the double helix is formed, it's a human life. That's science. I'm curious as to why some people believe that it's OK to destroy that life based on how long it's been alive.

"...but don't emulate the dreaded "gov't" by telling us what we can do because you don't like it."

The primary purpose of any govt is to protect innocent human life. Ensuring our rights as citizens is worthless if we're dead. You are free to 'do' whatever you want, but you have no right to make me pay for it and you have no right to 'do in' another innocent human being.

George Rebane

PatriciaS 712pm - "Abortion is the last result of PP." Unfortunately the truth is that abortion is the FIRST job of PP. 1) As the nation's largest abortion provider, they perform 40% of all abortions; 2) Their abortion services are the most costly item in their budget; 3) ALL the other services they perform for women are also provided by numerous other charitable organizations that don't offer abortions. A local one is the Living Well Medical Clinic at 105 Catherine Lane, Grass Valley (530-272-6800).

Gregory

"You, Scott, among others seem to fit that description. You bitch about gov't entitlements for the poor continuously."

Patricia, like you ever do anything but generalize that all non-liberals think alike.

Just wait for the waves of Democrat retirees getting pissed when Social Security, Mediscare and public employee pensions get adjusted downwards. Non Democrats will also be pissed but they're expecting it. What can't go on forever, won't.

Bill Tozer

Visual aides time again
http://patriotpost.us/posts/36672n!

Do all liberals think alike? No, some call themselves progressives.
https://www.facebook.com/USAPatriots/photos/a.639096312787612.1073741826.133154313381817/986562781374295/?type=1&theater

Todd Juvinall

You can see the venom of the left in the panels discussing PP and abortion. What has always fascinated me about the argument is WHERE is DADDY! GOD gave the woman the vessel to carry the new life and that life would not be there if there was not a "donor". Why has the man been left out of the decision?

Patricia and her pals have had their way all these years and do their best to denigrate and minimize those who disagree. Yet here we are. We all get to see the ogres and ghouls of the left do their dirty work. Selling bits and pieces of a living creature whose only goal is to live. Boris Karloff movies are now reality!

Account Deleted

OK, folks - another example of the left's refusal to have an intelligent discussion. I posed some straight forward points and questions to be responded to by the fearless standard bearers of the leftward sort.
Patricia responded with baseless insults.
She did try to respond to one question I had, but resorted to a manufactured talking point that provided no information as to the issue at hand.
The head of PP has characterized the criticism of PP as: "These attacks are not about us. They are about the ability of women across the country to access health care. Period."
Yes - that's right. It's all about denying all women in the US access to any kind of health care.
They have run out of room to run. They are cornered and have no facts or reason. So it's down to personal insults, obfuscation and misdirection.

Todd Juvinall

ScottO, I thought ObamaCare was for all. Is the PP leader saying ObamaCare is a failure for women's healthcare?

Bill Tozer

Oh Scott, it's just a matter of priorities. Duh.

http://patriotpost.us/posts/36731

Steven Frisch

I am thrilled that conservatives in Congress are charging ahead with plans to challenge the federal budget approval over the Planned Parenthood videos.

It really is symptomatic of the mindset of Republicans today that they would seize upon illegally obtained videos, that are heavily edited to deliver an inaccurate representation of the conversations between PP providers and faux journalists, and present them to the public as 'truth'.

Voters are pretty smart people and they will, by and large, see through the sham and punish Republicans for using this pretext to once again shut down the government, which they are on the path to doing.

As more and more information comes out about these videos it pretty clear that they bear no resemblance to journalism, were constructed for a political purpose, to create an issue, that riles up the Republican base. It is yet another example of the Republican leadership seizing upon fiction as a basis for policy and using propaganda to do their bidding, just like they did on health care, they do regularly on climate issues, they once did on tobacco, and they do regularly on immigration.

For the vast majority of relatively independent minded voters in America, particularly younger voters who are disgusted with the emotionally based rhetoric of politics, it is one more example of Republicans alienation from actual facts.

More importnat, in an election cycle, Congressional Republicans embracing this issue to play brinksmanship on the budget plays right into the narrative that Republicans are the party of narrow minded obstructionists who do not care about entire groups of people who are key parts of the electorate: women who support choice, middle class Americans struggling to afford health insurance and college, African Americans, and immigrants. It is as though Republicans are taking entire swaths of the electorate and intentionally alienating them in advance of a national election.

I watch a lot of politics, from Fox to CSPAN, and I wonder if Republicans really realize just how crazy they look to everyday people. From Donald Trump representing the Howard Beale tendency to scream "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more", to their more moderate wing bowing to the angry rhetoric of Tea Party types, to their tendency to embrace fiction, I wonder how they think they are ever going to win elections in the future when they sign off moderate women, hispanics, African-Americans and the middle class.

The only group who has not rejected Republican leadership in that list is the white middle class, where Republicans hold a tenuous advantage, but they are not going to stay stupid (or in the majority) forever.

Oh, I know some of you are going to say abortion is murder and the moral issue is more important than winning elections. Morals should be more important than winning elections. A strong case could be made for the anti-abortion position on moral grounds without jumping on the propaganda bandwagon and resorting to stunts like this. When people who really do have a strong moral case against abortion embrace stunts like this they actually hurt their cause.

So more power to you guys, do it again, shut down the government, and see how Americans respond.


fish

Posted by: Steven Frisch | 01 August 2015 at 08:02 AM


I like you better when you step away from the lectern and depart from your prepared remarks!

Republicans are going the way of the Dodo Steve.....well going the way of Whigs anyway.....hardly surprising with "leaders" like John "Prison Bitch" Boehner and "Timmy the Turtle" McConnell.

Todd Juvinall

Another monster cut/paste from the Truckee lib.

George Rebane

StevenF 802am - So that we may better understand the basis of your joyful report, can you point us to the polls that cause you to conclude that the Republican party is in dire straits? I also wonder why your presidential candidates are so exercised and obviously disturbed by a party that is rapidly self-destructing. If they truly believed that the Republicans were digging themselves into an ever deeper hole, a more corroborating stance for them would be to stand back and let the excavation proceed unperturbed.

Steven Frisch

Posted by: George Rebane | 01 August 2015 at 10:06 AM

Please note George, I did not say they are in dire straights across the board.

They are in dire straights with moderate women, African-Americans, Hispanics, and an increasing percentage of the middle class who are wondering how our country could be leaving the middle class behind.

I could cite the polls but you could just look them up,

Women-20 point advantage Dems
Hispanics--40 point advantage Dems
African Americans--60 point advantage Dems
Under 35-25 point advantage Dems

Steven Frisch

Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 01 August 2015 at 09:36 AM

Another utterly stupid unsupported comment from the philandering 100 IQ moron with more than 20 court cases in the last 30 years. :)

Steven Frisch

Do me favor George, if you cut my reply to Mr. Juvinall cut his original post as well.

I am wondering how long posters here are going to put up with how worthless Todd's contribution to an actual discussion is? Don't you see he never adds anything new or interesting?

fish

Posted by: Steven Frisch | 01 August 2015 at 10:16 AM

C'mon Steve....Todd is local "flavor". I don't recall seeing you equally incensed about the commenting quality of Curtis "ALL CAPS" Walker over at Pellines?

George Rebane

StevenF 1012am - From the cohorts' advantages you cite, it should be more than clear that the Republicans are indeed in dire straits across the board. I base this in the understanding that your presented data of the Dems' "points advantage" means the percentage points ahead of the non-Dems in the categories listed - e.g. for 'Women' the 20 point advantage means that 60% of women prefer Democrats to 40% of women who prefer non-Democrats. Correct?

StevenF 1016am - I'm going to continue letting RR readers decide how worthy other RR readers' comments are. The litmus test for someone (you?) considering another reader's comment unworthy is that it will simply be ignored. Acknowledging, no matter how vitriolically or even in a churchillian manner, always reinforces the decried behavior.

fish

Posted by: George Rebane | 01 August 2015 at 11:15 AM


Actually George I rather think that since you acceded to the suggestion to "moderate" that we've all been better behaved.....some less so than others at times. The RR commentariat is staying "on task" a bit better these days.


Give yourselves a round of applause......

George Rebane

fish 1122am - Thank you for the kind words. I agree with your observation, and in that sense the "RR commentariat" (I love your label) can applaud itself as we strive for new heights in civil yet uncompromising discourse.

Todd Juvinall

The Republicans will trounce the democrats as people are now seeing how depraved the dems are. Defending the murder of little people only wanting to live and breath by Planned Parenthood is readily defended by the likes of people like Frisch. My good, are libs so bereft of humanity? Apparently so. But when you look at democrats in general, most are like Frisch, they blame others for their shortcomings. Never accept responsibility. Now they counter attack the video! They try and deflect to some other shiny bauble. But we all get to see their lack on humanity and defense of murder. Frisch defending murder of infants ready to breathe is a fine example.

Looking at Prez candidates. The American people get a potpourri of different people on the Republican side. The democrats get a washed up thief (with numerous facelifts) and a huge security risk, a Socialist/Commie, a failed Maryland Governor and a Reagan democrat. All white people! No, the left is desperate to change the subject just like they always do when a tsunami of defeat is headed their way. Watch out Steve Frisch, the IRS may focus on you instead of the Tea Party after this election.

Todd Juvinall

On another blog today

stevefrisch says:
August 1, 2015 at 11:15 am

Hmmm…I don’t have kids, but I shudder to think about Herr Meckler teaching our kids to be “radical conservatives.” Fortunately I know that even the efforts of those that seek to be the shaper of children minds fail regularly in the face a broader culture that values diversity and tolerance.

So this chap that has no kids and apparently has no qualms about the killing of babies and sawing them apart for thie parts, is all concerned the ones that survive his ilk will be taught, GASP! the Constitution.

You just can't make this lunacy up!

Account Deleted

from S Frisch at 8:02 -
"...that they would seize upon illegally obtained videos,..."
Oh really - when was there a trial? We all seemed to have missed that Steve. There's an injunction against further releases, (for now) but the logic of the judge is preposterous. The Pentagon papers were illegally obtained - Snowden's data was illegally obtained. Did Steve rail against their release based on illegality? Steve has become quite the little lawnorder sort I see.
"...that are heavily edited to deliver an inaccurate representation of the conversations between PP providers and faux journalists, and present them to the public as 'truth'."
Steve has all of the original video to compare?
C'mom, Steve - you've become a bobble-head parroting talking points.
The 'truth' is that PP is selling body parts. Are you going to deny that?
"...I wonder how they think they are ever going to win elections in the future when they sign off moderate women, hispanics, African-Americans and the middle class."
Actually, there are a lot of R's that kiss special interest groups' asses and promise goodies to certain groups out of the public purse.
The conservatives and R's you are mad at care more about following the Constitution and keeping our country financially solvent than winning elections.
How are things going in Greece right now? What groups are hurt the worst? That's right - the poorest groups.
And finally
"Oh, I know some of you are going to say abortion is murder and the moral issue is more important than winning elections."
I had stated that abortion kills an innocent human life. I notice that not one proud 'pro abortionist' will touch that.
The fact that PP is killing humans and selling the body parts is a moral outrage.
Well - for some of us. For others, it's just something to ignore and hope it will go away.

Patricia Smith

George July 30, 10:21pm PP is a full service health care facility for women, abortions are a small part of their overall services, they don't use Federal dollars to fund abortions, and it appears the video is a slimy propaganda tool not based in fact (according to Mike pence, a Republican Governor who investigated the charges.

Gregory, July 30 1:25pm I mention ONE PERSON and you accuse me of saying all non-liberals think alike? Maybe that's true if there is one one non-liberal in this crowd.

Account Deleted

Patricia at 6:46 -
" I mention ONE PERSON and you accuse me of saying all non-liberals think alike?"
That would be me, Patricia. And you still haven't come up with any proof that I don't want children fed, educated, etc.
Are baseless insults all you have to work with?
"...and it appears the video is a slimy propaganda tool not based in fact..."
So - are you claiming that PP doesn't sell baby parts?

George Rebane

PatriciaS 646pm - No one has claimed that PP does not provide a full spectrum of services to women, especially pregnant ones. But I'm afraid you truly are deluded if you believe performing 40% of the nation's abortions makes that 'service' a small part of their overall services. I notice that you again ignored my previous response (1021pm) to you. Very hard to continue a dialogue like that. Perhaps you should take these numbers up with the CDC and NIH. And it is truly sophomoric to assert that PP doesn't use fed dollars for abortions - here's a shock, money is fungible.

But the bottom line is that PP sells baby parts. No one can claim that PP doesn't offer this service.

Bill Tozer

Patrica, let's cut to the chaste. Peddling body parts as one source of income. Not the donated parts or what percent is really what percent of their service. All that stuff is just fluff and window dressing.

Knew a guy who was breaking into a RX at night. The cops came and even called him by name. He reached back and grabbed his little 22 semi-auto and fired away. Then he reached for another clip tucked in the back out his belt and it gone. He threw up his hands. He said he surrendered when he ran out of bullets.

Patricia, me thinks you are getting low on bullets. Peddling baby parts or not?

Patricia Smith

Bill, I don't know the truth behind these claims and neither do you. We only know what we've been told by special interests on both sides. The fact is, you can get $3,000 in Pennsylvania for "donating" body parts when you die. How is this different than women donating fetal tissue from an unwanted pregnancy to help others live?

I care more about the living than the unborn. If that makes me a horrible person in your view, I can live with that. For the record - again - I am against partial birth abortions unless the life of the mother is in jeopardy. The line to adopt these children that might be spared from abortion forms to the the right.

George, 8:47pm How did I not respond to your post? In PP's full spectrum of services, abortion accounts for 3% of their overall procedures (hardly their first service offered). They supply birth control and education to PREVENT unwanted pregnancies. The fact that there are so few places left that do perform abortions, makes PP all the more revelant to women - and in many areas, PP is the only place women can get low cost care.

Patricia Smith

Scott, I could go back through all the posts you've made and come up with many instances where you (and others on this blog) are against supporting education, food stamps, pre-school care, etc. You just don't like it when you are called it.

fish

Posted by: Patricia Smith | 02 August 2015 at 09:53 AM

I am against partial birth abortions unless the life of the mother is in jeopardy. The line to adopt these children that might be spared from abortion forms to the the right.

Then I fail to see why you aren't profoundly disturbed by the recent Body Part Bazaar revelations surrounding Planned Parenthood as that is precisely what is occurring.

Bill Tozer

To beat a dead horse, there is a world of difference between donating a living growing unborn child's body parts.....er, donating "tissue" (to control the language and argument) and selling those parts to the highest bidder without the mother of the "tissue"'s foreknowledge and consent.
I won't change any minds here, especially since there is no "proof", it never happened or does not happen. Nothing to see here, right Patricia? Well, that plain nips the discussion in the bud.
I can't believe that Patricia will not address the selling of Crispy Critters except to say we don't know or the source is suspect or can't be trusted or plain ole contempt prior to investigation. Those were weak spitballs you managed to shoot back this lovely morning, Ms. Smith.
Nice to hear about po folk clinics and all that, but again the topic was avoided. Maybe we can gab about The Worse Call Ever in the last Super Bowl or exchange family Sheepherder's Stew recipes.
I know, we can call it "it", depending of course what the definition of "it" is or "is" is. Not a life, an "it". Better yet, call "it" tissue or a clump of cells or better yet, revert back to Latin and call it a fetus. Hey, this is fun.
As I have posted several times, the Latin noun fetus means only one thing: Unborn Child. Kinda like The Undead. I challenge you to find any other issue where we have gone from using the English term to reverting back to its Latin word to control the argument. It ain't a human life with a 50% chance of having a penis, it's a fetus! Or, it's a woman's body and there is a penis growing in her womb.Get it our of her!!

Why even bother to call PP's clients "mothers" since that thing with a heartbeat and human DNA is just a fetus, not an unborn child. If it were anything other than an "it" and was actually a living human being in undeveloped form, then we could call the clients mothers.

Account Deleted

"Scott, I could go back through all the posts you've made and come up with many instances where you (and others on this blog) are against supporting education, food stamps, pre-school care, etc"

Patricia apparently can't read English - the original claim she made about me was that I appeared to be a person that was against children being fed, educated and housed.
I ask for proof and she has provided none.

Instead she brings up the fact that I'm (gasp) against govt waste, programs such as head start that have proven to be ineffective, and costly, fraudulent programs such as food stamps.
Patricia and most libs constantly go back to the tried and true smear that if you don't support their version of how to solve a problem, then you must not want to solve the problem. It's childish and tiresome.

Just to prove how ignorant she is, Patricia provides her own example:
"I care more about the living than the unborn."
Uh - Patricia - pssst, the unborn are living. And you think it's okie dokie to kill them and sell the parts.
Have a splendid Sunday!

fish

Posted by: Scott Obermuller | 02 August 2015 at 11:24 AM

Patricia apparently can't read English....


Indeed.....no need to read when she can just run her internal narrative at her convenience.

Todd Juvinall

Too much ganga.

Patricia Smith

Scott, if you are against gov't programs to support underprivileged children then where do you suggest they get their basic needs fulfilled? If you can show how these mothers are supposed to feed, clothe, and educate their offspring without government help, I'll withdraw my criticism. Otherwise you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Project HeadStart has been proven a great success. educating our young is a great way to keep them from a life of poverty. Food stamps are fraudulent? Have you ever tried to get them? The bar is pretty damn low. So you want to prevent poor mothers from getting an abortion when they can't care for their offspring, but you don't want to help provide for them if the elect to have the child? This is why you and conservatives in general are doomed in this country.

Bill, Until there is proof that PP sold body parts, it is irresponsible to clam they did. As I stated in an earlier post, a Republican governor did an investigation into these claims in his state and found them utterly without merit. But when did facts ever stop you guys?

Todd, I think your problem is a LACK of ganga. It does tend to open one's mind to think for themselves instead of spouting the party line.

Todd Juvinall

Patricia Smith 12:23 PM

Seriously? You actually believe smoking dope opens your mind? You are farther gone than I suspected.

fish

Posted by: Patricia Smith | 02 August 2015 at 12:23 PM

This is why you and conservatives in general are doomed in this country.

...and that is how it should be.....leave it for the progressives to explain to the inner cities why the EBT cards aren't working any longer.

Todd, I think your problem is a LACK of ganga. It does tend to open one's mind to think for themselves instead of spouting the party line.

Your early forays into weed aided college dorm room "deep thought" bull sessions hardly qualify as "opening one's mind" Patricia!

Don Bessee

Perhaps patty could explain why they all only spout the party lines over and over? Buzzed and forgot they already said it! LOL

Bill Tozer

Well, I suppose Hillary and Patricia are correct. It takes a village to raise a child, which is a different issue than selling "unborn" parts, which also seems a bit over the top to those with normal healthy sensibilities.
Unborn? Ah, another term to be grouped in with "the blob". Hmmm. Well, carry on with The Attack of The Killer Tomatoes. I have said my piece. BTW, the release of episode 4 is "allegedly" more damaging that the first 3 in the mini-series. More will be revealed. There appears no winners here no what one solitary Governor believes or whether that one unnamed Gov of one state says. We are all losers in this mini-series. I know, it's all for the children.

Don Bessee

Someone needs to get people like patty in a room full of preemies and their parents so she can tell them partial birth and late term abortions only effect 'tissue' and not a person. Shame. Head start a success? By what metrics?? All relevant statistics on poverty and families show marked deterioration since the lefts enslavement of the inner cities with the certain doom of govt. dependency. God forbid they learn work ethics instead of entitlement. :-(

Todd Juvinall

BillT 12:53 PM

I wonder if Hillary would move into South Central and then stand on a corner and shout, "it takes a village to raise your little gangbanger". Whadda ya think?

Account Deleted

Patricia at 12:23 - I see you have given up even trying to prove your baseless smear against me. And you have given up on the original topic of this post.
Now you are off on the typical left wing nonsense that only with a massive, wasteful, fed govt program can children be fed and educated.
Why not steer this back to the original topic and ask why there is this massive need for birth control via fetus butchery? Why does this society put up with large numbers under age girls having casual sex (with resulting disease and pregnancy) and men that impregnate girls and women with no repercussions? What happened to the idea that children would be raised by a stable 2 parent family?
The massive federal entitlement program is an utter disaster. We have more poverty than ever, multi-generational entitlement addiction with millions of children year after year never understanding anything about personal responsibility or self sustainment. And on top of that, we now have generation after generation that are raised to believe that human life is worth nothing more than a whim and that it's OK for a person to decide to kill multiple humans if they are inconvenient.
Oh yeah, the answer is for every one to get stoned.

George Rebane

Progressive (brainless) mantra - 'If you're against government doing X or paying for X, then you are against X being done anywhere by anyone.'

Since my dialogue with PatriciaS has apparently died, I ask the independent reader to compare the costs of performing abortions and excising body parts to sitting across a desk from a woman and counseling her, or even getting an examination that does not lead to an abortion. Progressives don't believe govt stats that PP's 340K annual abortions (40% of national total) are real, or if so, they do not account for the lion's share of the PP budget. Note PatriciaS's totally ignoring those facts.

And claiming that PP is the only place that women can get low cost/free services, again illustrates how they strap on blinders when proof of alternatives is offered - ref my 1021pm. The collectivists cannot see nor will they look past the mantra given above.

Todd Juvinall

Juxtapose the liberals pro-abortion at any time with their attempts to save a murderer on death row. They cause the huge expenditure to save the scum on death row and for what? Kill babies, save the murderers. What a philosophy. They cause the taxpayers to pat for both depravities.

Gregory

"I watch a lot of politics, from Fox to CSPAN, and I wonder if Republicans really realize just how crazy they look to everyday people."-Frisch 8:02AM 1 Aug


I watch a lot of politics and I wonder if Frisch realizes just how crazy he looks to Democratic strategists. His dismissal of the planned parenthood baby parts sales videos as being "faux journalism" is an attack on 1st Amendment rights that goes to the core of investigative journalism, and his recent dismissal of 2nd and 5th Amendment rights in his quest to punish gun owners would be the death of any major Democratic candidate. Even Bernie Sanders wouldn't touch that one.

Once you decide any right is at the whim of a majority vote, you're well on your way to authoritarianism... shut up and do what you are told. Or, in the immortal words of Chicago's Rahm Emmanuel, "We have the votes. Fuck 'em."

Steve, abandoning the 5th Amendment in order to have an iron clad universal gun registration and permit scheme in order to gradually disarm the American people would be an abandonment of any hope for a majority for decades. Please, keep it up. Be honest to the people of Nevada County as to the extent of your views.

Let's also remember your desire for a meter on every private residential well so the State could send a bill for every gallon of Jerry Brown's water that you dare to use. Madness.

Patricia Smith

George, I am surprised at how you ignored what I said to make a point. I have addressed every question you asked. Can you produce any cediitable references that supports abortions comprise more than 3% of PP' total services? And they do counsel women before the decision to get an abortion is made (or not). But counseling a woman doesn't do a thing to make her financially able to support that child if she carried it to term. Most abortions are had by minority woman. Is there a huge demand to adopt these children? So what is your answer?

Also can you prove that PP uses Federal dollars to pay for abortons instead of contributions? Because if they do, they are violating the law and I think their opponents would be all over that.

And it is still an open question whether any body parts were sold or whether they were donated, but please don't let the lack of proof stop any of you from repeating the claim. (Do you have a problem with someone's life being saved with donor organs? Isn't that making the best out of a bad situation?) And no one responded to the fact that you can get paid for organ donations already in Pennsylvania.

You say that because you don't support gov't programs for the poor that you aren't necessarily against help from some other quarter. Where? It's easy to be against something, but what are your solutions? I have stated my position on welfare on this blog in the past, but to recap, I support giving people the tools they need to climb out of poverty for a limited amount of time. i don't support welfare for life except for people with severe disabilities.

When Scott says that welfare has increased, why is that? Do you really think people make a conscious decision to live in poverty when there are other opportunities? Do you possibly think corporate America has had a hand in increasing the number of people living in poverty? Or is it all the government's fault?

The differnce between me and most of your bloggers is that I see shades of gray and most of you see black & white (literally). I support the death penalty in some cases, but not all. Too many times, we've discovered an innocent person was falsely convicted. I support most gun rights, but not unlimited as we've discussed in the past. I support abortion up to the fourth month, but do not support partial birth abortions. So I am not spouting any party line that I know of because, Todd, pot has opened my mind to think for myself.

fish

Well right out of the Google gate we are treated to a discrepancy in the percentage of abortions performed by Planned Parenthood...

Planned Parenthood’s chart shows that abortions made up 3 percent of its total services. Another way to measure the group’s abortion services, however, is to divide the total number of abortions by the number of clients. For example, Planned Parenthood said that it “provided nearly 11.4 million medical services for 3 million people” in 2009. Its 2011 fact sheet says it performed 332,278 abortion procedures in 2009. That would mean that roughly one out of every 10 clients received an abortion.

So while I'm sure that Planned Parenthood tries mightily to keep the percentages down there appears to be a grey area...Patricia.

George Rebane

PatriciaS 324pm - I have explained in detail the difference between '3% (abortion) services' and the cost of those services. Besides, PP doesn't count all the lead up services to abortion in the 3%. That is fraud. Government data says that one out six pregnancies end in abortion, and PP admits to performing 40% of them.

To make my point about opposing the sale of body parts, I don't need to post a comprehensive solution to how poor women's healthcare is provided in the country. To require such solutions before opposing fraudulent or dysfunctional government activities is simply the ongoing progressive ruse to change the subject.

And there is no "open question" about the sale of body parts. It is an admitted and recorded part of PP activities, and now parts of the dismal process have been recorded on video (much to the chagrin of progressives who suddenly believe neither their lying eyes or ears).

Once more around the barn about PP's use of federal dollars instead of contribution dollars to pay for abortions - what part of budget dollars being fungible don't you understand?

fish

The link for the 3:37p post.

http://www.factcheck.org/2011/04/planned-parenthood/

Todd Juvinall

Patricia 3:24 PM She says this

"The differnce between me and most of your bloggers is that I see shades of gray and most of you see black & white (literally)."

You are just sorely mistaken. It is we on the right with the open mind. You cherry pick a couple of things but look over the last fifty years in America and guess what? The liberals have penetrates every single aspect of our lives and forced the taxpayers to pat for it all. We are simply trying to salvage the place from the "love" liberals have for regulations and interference in our lives.

No, Patricia, dope does not open ones mind to grander thoughts, it enslaves you and you become a drone.

Bill Tozer

Well, as a former outspoken Gov of Colorada once uttered off camera and his poetic words got caught on tape, "if those folks would stop buggering each other, then we wouldn't have this problem". Of course Governor Roy R was talking about the spread of AIDS back when it was in vogue to be on the front page. Now, if po folk would stop humping like minks, then we would not be having this discussion. Life is sexually transmitted, termination of life is not.

After reading Patricia's eloquent 15:34 response, I have two questions. Has anybody seen 50 Shades of Gray and is it any good??? I heard it caused a big stick when some nice school teacher played the movie for our school children by mistake, lol.
Well, folks, I don't see everything in black and white. Only Albinos are truly white and I have never seen a person who was black as coal on this side of the pond. Nay, I for one see things as colored. That is because I am a Nazi Racist Member of the Constipation of the Brain Great Right Wing Hard Core Extremist Hate Monger Conspiracy Party. Better than being a mushy member of The Diarreha of the Mouth Party, I reckon.

Steven Frisch

Posted by: Gregory | 02 August 2015 at 03:20 PM


Seriously Greg, I know you reach to attack my points, but saying this type of journalism is "faux journalism' is not an attack on the 1st amendment, it is calling the story deeply flawed. That is of course my 1st amendment right :)

Re: the 2nd and 5th.

The definition of the 2nd changed in 2008 and I don't agree with it and doubt it will stand the test of time.

The Constitutional definition of the 5th clearly allows the state to determine what is legal to own and what is not, as a matter of fact it already does in hundreds of cases, and guns are no different than making it illegal to own explosives, heroin or any other controlled substance, some foreign cars, exotic animals, real prosciutto or French Absinthe :)

Todd Juvinall

I am sure when the people who come to take America from the Patriots there will be a acceptance party waiting with open arms. Mr Truckee will be there. Unarmed of course.

Steven Frisch

Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 02 August 2015 at 05:29 PM

I have news for you Todd, I am the proud patriot and you are the quisling to American values.

George Rebane

StevenF 542pm - These, of course, are the new American values to which you refer, not the time-barnacled values of previous centuries that so vexed those on the road to a progressive future. In these pages we have spent years distilling these values from your (and fellow travelers') writings. However, such distillation has often been fraught with error. Has there yet appeared a clear (hopefully structured) compendium of these values which you so celebrate that can also inform the rest of us? If so, where? I ask so that we too could see the light and rejoice, or continue trembling for our offspring and our country.

Account Deleted

" i don't support welfare for life except for people with severe disabilities."
What's the time limit?
What happens after they're cut off? Patricia claims folks can't eat if the govt doesn't feed them.
Gasp! Patricia is the one that wants to starve children!
Sorry Patricia, but there are millions that have lived on nothing but the govt dole for generations. Fact.
They know nothing of work or self-sufficiency.
I propose that every male in the US that fathers a child and will not or can not support it be given a free trip to the snippers. Any woman that will not co-operate with the authorities in IDing the father, or continues to have babies on the public dole or continues to get pregnant and then aborts gets a free modification of their reproductive parts. You have freedom and rights, but when you start making a living out of existing on the public dime, you lose some of those rights. This may sound extreme, but it would be a magic balm on the societal costs of irresponsible sponges. Far fewer children being raised as animals.
Far fewer kids being raised with no father. Drastically reduced welfare costs. And the welfare sponges can attempt reproduction techniques all day long with the only cost being the diseases they pass around like trading cards.

Todd Juvinall

Steven Frisch | 02 August 2015 at 05:42 PM

You are the Quisling Fifth Columnist no me. You undermine all the good values of this country. I put you in the category of a group who probably burns the flag and calls that patriotism. No Steve Frisch, you are the quisling, preparing the way for those that will do us harm. You want to disarm the country that has given you refuge and that is what we patriots defend against.

Gregory

No Steve, the 2nd didn't change in 2008; SCOTUS returned to the plain meaning that was obvious in the 18th and 19th centuries (refer to the Dred Scott opinion) and to many if not most Americans in 2007. Dems had abandoned infringements on the right of the people to own and carry guns as anything but toxic because of too many elections lost as a result... including Gore v. Bush, where Gore didn't even carry his home state and many believed it was his stance on guns was the losing issue there.

Keep the drumbeat rumbling, it could be worth a few points to GOP candidates in 2016.

Your onerous gun registration scheme can ONLY work if 5th Amendment protections against self incrimination gets deleted; I suppose you think a majority vote in Congress or an executive order is all that's needed. Good luck with that.

In short, Steve, you are the Democratic fringe, as is your buddy Jeff, the purple FUE. Enjoy the show.

Gregory

"The Constitutional definition of the 5th clearly allows the state to determine what is legal to own and what is not..." - Frisch


What you are missing is that a mandatory registration, especially of a firearm that is illegal after the fact or owned by someone currently forbidden firearms ownership, is a call for someone to turn themselves in. Come in and confess, or we'll find you guilty of not coming in and confess.

That's why all current registration laws in the US, besides being worthless in reducing crime, exempts Felons, the insane, people convicted (or in some cases merely charged) with misdemeanor domestic violence charges are exempt from any registration violations. That's the 5th Amendment at work, and, in your ignorance, what you are expecting to just wave away.

It's obvious your definition of a "faux journalist" is one who investigates your sacred cows.

Bill Tozer

Scott, a few of your proposals were implemented during the Clinton Presidency if memory serves me correctly. And no, the sky did not fall and neither were hordes of people with kids in tow starving in the streets. Then the Obama Administration began to chip away at that gawd awful "Welfare Reform".

I liked the part about we will pay for the first few kids, but not any more down the road. Advanced notice. That was a real shocker in the Rust Belt. Welfare reform's byproduct was to crack down on "dead beat dads" and that was a real shocker as well to the dads. No longer could a young lassie tell the Dad to take a hike and she will raise the kid alone because of the new required IDing of the papa. Give us his name or no check in the mail. The woman should still be a single parent, but somebody better produce the sperm donor's name so we the people could squeeze a little blood from the turnip.

I have not idea what the ins and outs of of current policy is, pun intended. Don't know how many mamas are "forced" Into training to equip and prepare them to seek and obtain employment or if the clock is still ticking on the number of months/years an able bodied parent can keep having the government checks a'rolling in. They used to say 3 or so years are you are outta here, knucklehead.
I do know what the formerly named Aid to Dependant Children was earmarked for exactly as the name implies. Aid to the children, not the dead beat parents who eagerly spent the checks or not meant to be a lifeline to the parents instead of the children. Yep, I haven't a clue how welfare reform stands as of this writing.

I also know that forced castration was declared cruel and unusual punishment by SCOTUS in the 1800's. Maybe that only dealt with punishment instead of our modern times with numberous birth control options. So much for the Rhythm Method or using Glad Wrap as those were often found to be unreliable or thrown out the window in the heat of passion.

Anyone that receives one thin dime, one tenth of the dollar from the government has already lost some of their rights, namely liberty and the pursuit of happiness. With all those strings attached, nothing is free. The old sacrifice liberties for security. Or call them freedoms, not rights,if you prefer.
I can relate. Once when I was not thinking clearly, I turned to my Cherokee Princess spouse and said (being flat broke) "Hey Sugarplum, why don't you apply for some of that Injun money so we can pay the rent?" Yes, I was drinking heavily at the time and I must have been in an alcohol induced stupor.. She looked at me and said her grandmother on the Rez in Oklahoma told her sternly that "if you ever accept the white man's money, you sell them your soul." Wise words from the last Great Chief's granddaughter who passed own these words of wisdom to her granddaughter.
Those words have carried me through many rough patches. Life ain't easy or black or white, unless one seeks to take the easy way out. There is always another option. Just my opinion, nothin' else.

Bill Tozer

PS: I was too drunk and prideful to ever apply for Injun money myself. Figured let the lovely squaw do the dirty work, lol. Men are such shiftless beasts. Women do like to nest.

Account Deleted

"I also know that forced castration was declared cruel and unusual punishment by SCOTUS in the 1800's."
Yikes! Not that sorta' snipping!
The 'internal' kind of snipping, please. Cuts off the supply of paratroopers. The rest of the mission can proceed as normal.

Bill Tozer

Finally a good argument for abortion:

http://www.theonion.com/article/report-rising-disney-world-ticket-costs-prompting--50967

Bill Tozer

Scott, I personally do not believe you are against educating children, nor have I ever met anyone who is. What we are against is poor education dooming the future generations. Some take that as anti-teacher. Nay, we (may I say we?)...we are against poor quality public education which includes poor quality teachers stuck in a sub-par government controlled system where parent concerns are pooh-poohed and protection of the status quo is now the top priority.
Yes, the system is in a Catch 22. They are incapable of delivering a quality product now, and if they try to raise the bar, they fail miserably. The status quo is unacceptable and raising the bar higher guarantees complete and utter failure. They simply cannot do anything but cover their rear ends.
If you lay your head on the railroad tracks, it's the locomotive that gets ya, not the caboose. The locomotive is this case is the driving force of a shameful government run public education system that is too cumbersome to change directions and resists anything/anyone that suggests taking a different course. It's all about protecting the system, not the children in the caboose.
Get in the back of the bus kids. The first 5 rows are for the teachers and administrators.

http://nypost.com/2015/08/02/teacher-explains-why-she-passed-student-who-deserved-to-fail/

Patricia Smith

George, what part of causation doesn't equal correlation don't you understand? Now you are trying to massage the facts to say that a counseling session is equal to an abortion! I believe we have reached an impasse that will never meet in the middle. You believe life begins at conception, I believe life begins when the fetus can survive on its own without artificial support. Since you cannot support that Federal dollars pay for abortions, what difference does it make how much they cost if they come from contributions? And PP does receive massive amounts of contributions.

The fact that PP performs 40% of the abortions in this country only shows that so many clinics have been closed, this is the last resort for most women. Here is something for you to ruminate on: if you were to outlaw abortion, all those babies will grow up to vote for Democrats! You would be increasing the voter registrions for Dems by hundreds of thousands every year. Good strategy!

You very conveniently avoided answering how these women are supposed to care for their children. Not your problem. And yes, a solution is a responsible part of dealing with any problem.

fish

Posted by: Patricia Smith | 03 August 2015 at 08:58 AM

George, what part of causation doesn't equal correlation don't you understand?


I'm guessing it's the part where you reverse the phrase as commonly used.

Patricia Smith

What can I say? I have a slight case of Dyslexia, Fish. Doesn't change the intent of my point. I could point out numerous misspellings and improper grammar on your part, but it doesn't add to the conversation.

fish

Posted by: Patricia Smith | 03 August 2015 at 09:42 AM

:-(

Typos and misspellings are one thing Patricia....if you are going to call out our host with a commonly used phrase employed in logical argument then my suggestion to you, especially if you are dyslexic, is proofread.

Gregory

What PS misses is that if you only count the surgeon's time running the vacuum or crunching the tissue, you're intentionally understating the cost of providing that service. One could even play games of bundling the sale of the, ummm, uncrunched tissue with the surgeon's time as a self contained profit/loss center to make it a small percentage.

To reuse a perfectly good word here, money is fungible and pie charts don't tell the whole story.

Bill Tozer

Fish, some cultures read left to right and thus, in theory, have lower rates of dyslexia. Proof reading does not help me in the least. I still can't spell certain words, proof reading or not. And this auto correct feature will simply insert words out of thin air.....words I had no intention of using smack dap into the middle of a sentence and then it does not make sense to me nor the reader.
No wonder Nixon used recording tapes. No spelling needed. But, noooo, now everyone is afraid of those little dictaphones and we are stuck with Spelling Bees just to tell someone they are off their friggin' rocker And they said technology would make things easier. Well, it does save trees, but the post office ain't running in the black, now is it?
Plus, my lawyer told me never never put down certain things on paper, ever. Save a tree and you got the spelling Nazis all up in arms. Whatz a crystal worshipper to do?? Plus, every time I try to compose a brilliant idea, my spelling and grammar are proof positive I was reared in the public school system. Alas, I am doomed. No place to hide.
Life was so much less complicated when you could simply give someone the one finger salute. But, nooo. That is considered a Bozo No-No in our Age of Enlightenment.
Yes, I am sitting on the pity pot this formerly fine morning. Grip this you liberal asswipes. There, I feel so much better now. Feelings over substance is not bad once you try it for awhile.

Account Deleted

Patricia - "I believe life begins when the fetus can survive on its own without artificial support."

You don't get to make up medical science with personal beliefs. Once the double helix is formed, it's human and it's alive. That is a fact. If you are going to say you don't care what the facts are, why even have this discussion?

Also - "You very conveniently avoided answering how these women are supposed to care for their children."

How about the way my wife and my mother and my sisters and billions of other women have for eons?

Patricia is the one avoiding the central issue here. PP is killing humans and selling the body parts.

George Rebane

PatriciaS 858am – An interesting social narrative – ‘Don’t critique anything unless you concurrently present a better solution.’ With regard to poor pregnant women, I do subscribe to a solution. If you aren’t prepared to raise the child, then use contraceptives or abstain. I do support counseling needy women about their sex habits and the consequences of sex. And I even believe that government has a role in supporting such counseling. But I do not believe that the poor, needy, ignorant, wanting, licentious, indigent, lazy, and/or simply greedy have unlimited drawing privileges on my earnings and savings. These beliefs are part of an ideology that is foreign to you and yours. However, the differences and supportive reasoning behind our ideologies are worthy of discussion and debate as these pages already give witness.

As a practical matter I think the debate, no matter how broad or narrow we want to make it, deserves to take place in the comment stream of an introductory commentary (or two) instead of being expanded and buried in a potpourri of comments. The topic of providing such welfare is important since it is one of the main issues that have riven our country and continue to push us further apart with each passing day.

Perhaps you might want to compose some ideas on what are the dimensions of responsibility that a civilized society of free people (who seek to live under the aegis of the Bastiat Triangle of Rights) should assume. I would summarize a compendium of my ideas, and then we all could have a go at it to see if there exists common ground.

Todd Juvinall

Patricia, what is your position on young poor women getting pregnant. Is it to leave the decision up to them/ Individual rights?

Bill Tozer

Dr. Rebane, great idea. Since the top priority of many folks on the Left is caring for the poor among us, (social justice), why not pen yet another post on caring for the poor? I cannot answer Patricia's question and the Left's trump card of "they are poor, what are we going to do about it?" It's almost as if because someone is poor, they need special treatment, special programs, special this and that and are absolved from the usual pat answers and personal responsibility. It's the question they always throw back in our faces.

Patricia's list of beliefs mentioned in these threads are not as far flung as she is painted, She worked hard long long hours in a very stressful industry as did I back when I had more of a stomach (tolerance level) for neurotic egomaniacs. She was in wardrobe/costume I gather by previous comments, I was in props and armory in "the biz". Except I bailed after only 9 years. Had enough, thank you very much.
What do we do with poor women? We all know what our mothers and grandmothers did. But, there are some to which the concept of personal responsibility, hard work, taking initiative, grabbing the bull by the horns, storming the castle gates, and accepting full responsibility is a foreign concept. Poor things, they seemed to be raised that way and haven't a clue on how to make it in this world without government assistance. Merely speaking of the able bodied among us, not the disabled or the "one offs".
So, a good starting point would be a list of priorities of each side's tenets. We all actually believe basically in the same things, but give items different priorities and greater or lesser emphasis on the pecking order. The Right puts individual liberties and individual responsibility ahead of things like social justice and income inequality while the left puts social items at the top of the list. It's all a matter of priorities and degrees.
Lay it out there in a new post, Patricia or Dr. Rebane. What about the poor women who cannot afford another mouth to feed???? How big of a check to cut and for how long?

Patricia Smith

Bill, finally a response that doesn't revert to the same old points. Yes! We should try to find some solutions - like funding birth control instread of making it more difficult to obtain. Sell bc pills over the counter. Give out condoms in bars. Heck of a lot cheaper than either an abortion or welfare.

While I fully support a woman's right to choose, abortions should be rare and the last choice.

I do believe that there should be a limit on how long one can collect welfare. When there is a deadline looming, many people find jobs quick. But I also believe that they should be trained for a job that would pay enough to get them off welfare - or being able to work parttime while getting an education without giving up your benefits.

In the either-or scenario, many people figure that they do better on welfare (which is a really low standard) than they would working at a job in a fast-food joint or the equivalent.

Patricia Smith

George, didn't see your post right away. I would be happy to write out my thoughts on welfare reform - and God knows it needs reform - but I am in favor of fixing it, not scraping it. To make the conversation complete, corporate welfare needs to be addressed as well.

BTW, birth control has been know to fail. Not every unplanned pregnancy is the result of irresponsible behavior (although, I'll admit, most probably are.) Abortion should never be a substitute for birth control.

ASIDE TO FISH: Yes, I will try to proofread more carefully. Sometimes I get caught up in the moment and hit post too rapidly. It's amzing the errors I see the minute the post goes live. Embarrassing.

And finally in the I don't mean to gloat dept: Republicans efforts to defund PP have failed (big shock).

Account Deleted

"Abortion should never be a substitute for birth control."

Really, Patricia? NEVER? But is usually is, Patricia and just what are you going to do about it?
Cheer them on.

"While I fully support a woman's right to choose..."
Choose what? If you don't say what it is they're 'choosing', it shows how cowardly you are about this topic. So they can 'choose' to use abortion as birth control, which you just claimed they should NEVER do, except now they have this as a 'right'.
How stoned do you have to be to come up with this sort of illogic?

Jon

Patricia's logic is the logic the majority of Americans agree with.

Bill Tozer

"Abortions should be rare and the last choice". Most would agree with that statement in and of itself.. Dr. Rebane would probably agree with that, but I dare not speak for others. But, that statement is merely theory, not reality. Anyone can buy rubbers over the counter at gas station convince stores of all places. A Dr. or Nurse Practioner or a PA can prescribe a year's worth of "the pill". But, that has not made a dent in the abortion rates or numbers as far as I can tell. The difference between a light bulb and a pregnant woman is you can unscrew a lightbulb,
The pro-life and pro-choice sides will never agree because it is literally a matter of life and death. Most pro-lifers make exceptions for endangering the life of the mother just as most anti-capital punishment folks will make one exception once in a blue moon for some of the most heinous unspeakable crimes, but neither side never really budges much. But, besides a few clearly predefined exemptions to the rules, there is no in between, no middle ground, and never the twain shall meet. It is either murder or it is not. Either life begins at conception, or it does not. Either capital punishment is societal murder and unacceptable or it is not.

I hope that most folks here would agree that selling baby parts as a source of income is one of the most despicable acts to come down the pike in a long time, be it in theory or reality. But, if we cannot get to some sort of common ground on this one very narrow clearly defined issue (again, be it in theory or actual practice), then there is no use continuing on the yellow brick road hand in hand. Core beliefs will not be swayed by even the world's most persuasive orators.

Patricia Smith

Scott, you are a very rude dude that always resorts to belittling anyone who disagrees with you. You make these ridiculous statements like "what are you going to do about it (seeing that women don't use abortion as a substitute for birth control." Probably the same thing you will do: fight for laws that support our points of view.

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