Sandbox - 26jul15

[The old sandbox again filled more rapidly than I expected.  Thought I'd start the new one off with a comment of my own which was motivated by a report from the radio as it announced the start of a new day. BTW, I am noticing the tendency of some commenters to get back into ad hominems.  Attack the ideas, not the ideologues.  gjr]

Comments

[George Rebane]

NPR this morning broadcast a report on the American with Disabilities Act of 1990. The report concludes that the act has not benefitted disabled Americans in helping them to lead more normal lives. In fact its impact has been exactly the opposite. Its unintended effects have reduced the fraction of disabled Americans with jobs from 29% in 1990 to 15% in 2013, essentially cutting in half the proportion employed. It has done this by placing draconian strictures on employers and potential employers by saddling them with all kinds of new workplace and reporting requirements, and exposed them to liabilities for lawsuits when they employ the disabled today. Additionally, the act has given rise to a welfare payments schema that makes it risky for the disabled to earn marginal sums for fear of losing their government income. This essentially condemns them to a life of poverty, and frustrates their efforts to become self-sufficient. And the most frustrating part is that our progressives are blind to all these government peccadillos; once having passed another feel good law, they simply move on to debilitate another sector of our society or economy by injecting ever more government into our lives.

[Bill Tozer]

Yes, all true Dr. Rebane. Didn't Obama hail The Afforable Care and Patient Privacy Protection Act as wonderful because now people can work less? Less work means more dependency!
We are not talking about a hostile work environment here. Once you hire someone, especially a disabled person, it becomes very expensive to keep them or cut them. Just not the disabled. How about the sweet young pretty lassie who turned herself into a full bodied Tatooed Lady and demands she keeps her job as a hostess at an upscale restaurant? Or the worker with sleep apnea? Must provide a nap pad for them while on the clock.

Our society already has people avoiding work because of potential benefit reductions. You might say they cannot accept work just to survive. The alternative is to face benefit reductions. And to add to the complexity of the issue, some think they should be handed a great paying job with full bennies without previous experience or related work history.... or else.

The lefties decry them evil Right Wingers for lusting after cutting help to the poor. Damn if you you, damned if you don't. Makes great political theater. Slay the strawman all day long, but make sure you got the right strawman.
Something is wrong when you can't fire the underachievers. Something is wrong when people of the dependent class feel they will lose if they seek and obtain employment. Something is wrong when the dependent class feel they will get penalized for working or work is a zero net gain. Or, the more you work, the more you lose out. That is a strawman worth slaying.

[Bill Tozer]

The NPR did not provide this visual aide. Fit enough for the Sandbox though.

https://www.facebook.com/SpokenReasonsTV/photos/a.163470630381146.40081.158768124184730/914380688623466/?type=1&theater

[Todd Juvinall]

Unfortunately George H.W. Bush put this law into place based on personal experience with a sister if I am recalling it correctly. Many of us said wait until we have more information and if you want to proceed do it slowly. But the government does an "omnibus" on everything. They shove everything into a "law" including the kitchen sink. Then the lawyers go to work.

Hundreds of billions have been spent on curb cuts alone. Every business that wanted to upgrade or remodel was forced to comply with ramps and interior accommodations. The lawyers though saw an opening to make a gazillion bucks through extortion attempts. So they sue and sue and many small businesses are kaput. Certainly any new structure should build to accommodate the disabled but forcing everyone to do so was counterproductive. And the employers got smart right away to avoid those lawsuits and so less are hired. The law of unintended consequences is at work for all to see. But bring it up and the PC police destroy you so most do their avoidence very quietly.

[Todd Juvinall]

Does anyone know the military background of "Jon" and Steve Frisch? Just curious since they seem to ant-gun.

[Todd Juvinall]

to be anti-gun

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 26 July 2015 at 09:19 AM

I have no military background Todd, I never served. Several members of my family have of course and do now.

But more important Mr. Chickhawk, is of what relevance is it? It has nothing to do with the issue here, and bringing it up here is just another example of how every thread gets taken over by you and turned it into just the sort of ad hominem nonsense that George was bemoaning above.

How is it that you can continually bring up absolutely irrelevant nonsense like claiming people are drunk, or Muslim, or communists and it is never called for being the problem here?

George, you want to stick to the point the person you need to censor is TODD.

[Michael R. Kesti]

Todd Juvinall 26Jul15 at 09:19 AM

Please explain how the validity of one's opinions concerning firearms is affected by whether one has military experience.

[Todd Juvinall]

If you two don't understand my question then GOD help you.

I see Mr. Kesti is more concerned with my question than with the namecalling by Mr. Steven Frisch. Typical.

[fish]

Posted by: Steven Frisch | 26 July 2015 at 09:33 AM

George, you want to stick to the point the person you need to censor is TODD.

As an alternative you could ignore....or decamp for more censorious locales.

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 26 July 2015 at 09:46 AM

And they are off...another thread down the rat hole.

Todd, I have had not military experience. It has nothing to do with the issue of gun control. You have no military experience, that has nothing to do with your position either. All I did was point out the irrelevancy of even bringing the topic up.

[Todd Juvinall]

Fish Mr. Frisch is representative of the liberal mind. When they disagree they want to censor. Just as he does all of his other venues that he controls. No place for an opposing view or even for a question!

Kesti whines about my gun question yet never said a word about the numerous similar questions from the troll names "jon". These people are just odd.

It is so interesting to see the priorities of liberals. Usually they are the spell checkers. Forget the debate, make sure they correct the spelling. What a hoot!

[Michael R. Kesti]

Todd Juvinall 26Jul15 at 09:46 AM

I understand your question, Todd, but I do not understand its relevance. I do understand that you cannot explain its relevance and can respond only as you have.

[Jon]

Todd, no military background here. Too young for days of the mandatory draft. Father was a WWII Naval Officer, supporting the Pacific Fleet.
As with Steve, just curious of the background of various Chickenhawks who bang war drums, such as yourself.

[Todd Juvinall]

Kesti, you are not that dense. Or are you?

[George Rebane]

Well, so much for the Americans with Disabilities Act. A worse catastrophe is now stewing with Obamacare with data coming in on skyrocketing state costs, patient (un)affordability, insurance company gaming, and anti-competition healthcare providers consolidation. Soon we will have the look alike of Britain's National Health Service - unsustainable, rationed, and providing ever more limited services.

[Michael R. Kesti]

Todd Juvinall 26Jul15 at 10:31 AM

Your petty personal attack serves to further demonstrate that you cannot explain the relevance of military experience to the validity of one's opinions concerning firearms. If this is as obvious as you seem to believe then why not show just how dense I am by providing that explanation? Alternatively, you could demonstrate a modicum of class and admit that your thoughts concerning the matter were, at best, half-baked.

[RL Crabb]

"Hundreds of billions have been spent on curb cuts alone." Damn those freeloading cripples!

[Jon]

HUNDREDS of billions? Lets see the data to back that one up. Can someone provide? Thanks.

[Todd Juvinall]

Kesti, I am sad you are so dense. And yes, I have no class as you have written so many times. If you are not dense you can tell us all how being in the military and the connection with weapons has relevance. If not, GOD help the country.

Regarding curb cuts, I never said I opposed them as I simply mentioned their costs.

[Walt]

As for the "military" question,, So "someone" was too young for the draft. What stopped "him/her/it" from volunteering? Have a problem signing on the dotted line for a four year stint? Matching funds for education, a good chance of gaining experience in a good career field, getting a good dose of responsibility, the list of reasons goes on.
For most people, a stint in any given service makes them a much better person.

[Walt]

Another Lefty who doesn't practice what he preaches. How many times have we read or heard about " raise the minimum wage" to "X", yet the one doing the yapping is paying less than that?
Here is the latest... Hypocrite....
http://dailycaller.com/2015/07/25/bernie-sanders-demands-15-per-hour-minimum-wage-pays-his-own-interns-12-per-hour/

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: Jon | 26 July 2015 at 12:08 PM

Hmm...having reviewed a number of streetscape improvement projects and being a planning geek I can state that unscheduled curb cuts are expensive--averaging in the midwest and east between $4-$6K per install and slightly higher in the west due partly to soils.

But the reality is most cities/counties have a capital improvement plan for improvements that require they be upgraded periodically and replacing curbs with cuts and doing it during regular capital improvements is not more expensive and already programmed.

The added cost comes in cases where previously unscheduled replacement needs to be done, usually in high traffic areas. Lets say the life of a curb is 20 years, and because of ADA you had to replace it at 8 years, then you lost 12 years of life.

Regardless, Todd can't back that number up.

[Todd Juvinall]

Well lets see. Twenty thousand cities and towns in America? Let's say four intersections in each is 80,000 curbs cuts. Using Frisch's average of 5K each so what is that total?

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 26 July 2015 at 12:52 PM

I think you missed the point Todd. Cities/counties have pavement improvement plans to maintain their infrastructure. Improvements are programmed over a period of time, and the cost is the delta between normal cost of replacement and accelerated cost of replacement if necessary. That is the figure you need.

[Bonnie McGuire]

Thank God for ambitious, daring, creative hard working people who are the one responsible for a prosperous nation's economy. Look out! Here come the elected plunderers who first take for themselves and then proclaim they are the benefactors of the poor, sick and old to get what they want. Old story that has always motivated people to migrate round and round the earth seeking a better life free of dictating parasites. Easy to figure out if you ever planted a wonderful vegetable garden. If you don't fence it, all your hard work will disappear in a short time, cuz word travels fast in the animal kingdom that there's good eatin' at your place.

[Todd Juvinall]

Steven Frisch | 26 July 2015 at 12:57 PM

I did not miss the point. Since when were you a elected person responsible for a city or county budget? I was. You are just mouthing one part of the issue. Grass Valley approved curb cuts last year that cost $60,000 on a couple of intersections of old curbs. They have to prioritize. If you drive on Richardson Street you may lose your teeth. So, to put in curbs they placed their priority on them while the hundreds of drivers on Richardson must endure the loss of teeth for another few years. And as a Board member of the Transportation Commission we had funds set aside for sidewalk. Do you know the rate and the amounts?

When you get elected and become part of the solution I may listen to your WIKI copy/pastes, but now, you don't know diddly.

By the way, did you figure out the cost estimates nationally? Of course not. Maybe Kesti can.

[Don Bessee]

frischy @ 933- Sounds like your talking about youself, the 'jon' and lefty jeffey. We know you guys are always right, just ask you and you will happily tell anyone about your self proclaimed superiority. Narcissists spewing the party line talking points nothing more.

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 26 July 2015 at 01:07 PM

I think it is amazing that as a former elected official you are so ignorant of a basic function of municipal government and finance Todd. I think it is emblematic of what fine County Supervisor you were. In short, you always had your head firmly up your a**.

Let me explain to you how this works in most places. As improvements are made maintenance and replacement funding is identified. As the infrastructure ages repairs are made to extend their life and the funds are accrued for replacement at the end of the improvements lifetime.

When we say we wish elected officials managed like a business this is what we mean Mr. Former Government Official :)

By the way here is a link to Grass Valley's Capital Improvement Program (which pavement management and improvement is included in):

http://www.cityofgrassvalley.com/departments/engineering/capital-improvement-projects

[Todd Juvinall]

Steven Frisch | 26 July 2015 at 01:52 PM

What a hoot!

[Bill Tozer]

Well, the cease and disest on personal attacks got off track in record time. Ah, that is we have sandboxes. To kick sand in pencil necked geeks' faces. And smash sand castles. In life, the geeks usually get the last word. As the world turns without me.

My, in the attached link nobody will read, there is Uber vs The Mayor, Hillary attacked from the leftist hardliners, and even something for Bonnie is this little link. Something for every fiercely independent "Don't tread on me " reader. Best quote from Albany. "In Albany, they say it's two parties against the people". Liked that one.

http://nypost.com/2015/07/26/hillary-has-a-dangerous-enemy-in-the-obama-administration/
Hey, can't we get all the movie houses together and have them hire the cripples? Have them suck the farts out of the cushions. Better than cutting sidewalks (albeit the novice skateboarders do like the cuts) or better than keeping the crips employed changing spark plugs on Diesel engines. The cine field offers more variety, an air conditioned workplace and creates within the handicapped a sense of fulfillment. Pride in workmanship and all that good stuff.

[Todd Juvinall]

BillT, I am waiting for the math skills of those self proclaimed brainiacs Frisch and "jon". Crickets.

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 26 July 2015 at 03:09 PM

Hey Todd, Jon asked you to support your 'hundreds of billions' figure....you are the one on the spot here buddy.

[Bonnie McGuire]

Love what George Runner wrote in the Union about Prop. 13.
http://www.theunion.com/opinion/columns/17156875-113/george-runner-attempts-to-change-proposition-13-are
The big spending liars never give up. When Prop 13 became law our gov was reappraising property according to what property sold for next door. People who kept their old homes were being taxed out of their homes. Prop 13 protected them. Then all we heard was whining about how much the state lost in revenue because of it. Lie. Our area was building hundreds of new rural homes some worth over a million dollars. These were responsibly paying for their own water, electricity, sewage tanks and roads. The gov didn't have to pay for anything other than the tax collector. For example, an old place protected by prop 13 appraised at around $20,000 paying around $200 sold for about $400,000 and the new owners taxes were $4,000. Meanwhile the seller built a new home costing around $300,000 and his property tax was now $3,000 per year. So you see how much the gov profited for doing nothing. It goes on and on...

[Bill Tozer]

Good point, Bonnie. Back to the dependent class (not the lame or diseased or weak in particular), what we need is more taxpayers, not less. That's a solution. But with a struggling workforce trying to bust out of the economic doldrums, gov't turns to those who are a bit richer and successful to take a bigger bite because of the declining number of taxpayers. And don't give me that crap that illegals and the dirt poor pay taxes. I ain't taking about sales tax on a cell phone here. I am taking about those that pay in more than they receive in goodies (assistance). You know, that thing known as tax payers. That is the solution,. Dilution of the working taxpayer ain't the solution. If the glove don't fit, you must acquit. Government solutions result in fewer taxpayers. A rather nasty vicious cycle. Government can't simply call The Ghost Busters Squad, so they turn to anyone who has more than the non-taxpayer. You can only hit the well so many times before it starts to run dry.

[Todd Juvinall]

Steven Frisch | 26 July 2015 at 03:16 PM

I did and I was very conservative with my numbers. All I asked was for you to multiply and you can't even do that. And I am not your "buddy".

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 26 July 2015 at 04:23 PM

I think Jon asked you to back up your 'hundreds of billions' number and he is still waiting Todd.

Do you deny the number is actually the delta between normal repair and replacement and the increased cost? I answered your question. For most jurisdictions the regular repair and replacement is programmed, whether with traditional curb an gutter or ADA compliant curb and gutter. So please tell us what is the delta between the two.

Yu just picked a number out of your hat and threw it out. That's on you BUDDY not us.

[Todd Juvinall]

Steve Frisch are you really that incompetent you cant multiply? Apparently. You see your lik never answers our questions but you always rag on us if we don't get right back to you. Grow up.

When a law changes by the politicians it creates another mandate and the associated costs. Curb cuts were never required until the ADA was passed. That is an additional expense. Capiche?

I'll make it easy for you. The State passes a law that only LED light fixtures are allowed. For new or remodels. Forcing you to toss the old incandescent fixtures. So voila! A new expense. Get it? Jeeze what a dunce.

[Bill Tozer]

Attack the ideas, not the ideologues, eh gjr]? Well, it's pretty hard for me to follow some of this thread cold turkey. Be back in 5 minutes.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GeI5ke0BENw

[Joe Koyote]

Persuasion is one of the most and longest studied forms of discourse, going back at least a far as Aristotle. Ad hominem attacks are generally addressed in two arenas, propaganda and cognitive dissonance. The propaganda angle generally speaks for itself, and asks readers/listeners to discard logic and base their evaluations/judgements on the relative right/wrong of a statement/information based on their emotional reaction to the "name". It is a common ploy in these pages to use the terms "liberal/progressive/leftwing,etc." in a pejorative manner asking the reader to dismiss information because the source has been so named. The same illogic applies to the mythical "liberal press" i.e.. anything in the news that one doesn't like must be a lie because it was reported by the liberal press; a rather beautiful propaganda ploy from a technical standpoint as it is self-perpetuating.

From the cognitive dissonance perspective, the use of ad hominem attacks is seen as the "first response" i.e., when people are presented with information that contradicts their beliefs the most common response is to attack the credibility of the source. Once the source has been duly splattered with mud, the information can then be dismissed because, after all, who is going to believe a commie/lib/bastard except another one.

So the next time you see an ad hominem attack, it is either because the attacker wants you to throw logic to the wind or their cage has been rattled and they can't reconcile the differences between what they believe and what the information tells them.

[George Rebane]

JoeK 814pm - Well, your analysis might have some truth to it, but most certainly it is incomplete. The great ideological polarization in our nation is between collectivism and classical liberalism. These belief systems are real and now cite their origins to the Europe of two centuries ago. Hundreds of millions have died in the contention between various forms of collectivism and classical liberalism which today come under various names to indicate further internal refinements of ideology.

What you seem to miss is the reality that this contention today has grown into a national debate that approaches a schism. And in that debate both sides attempt to win over the 'middle' or the 'undecided'. A major asymmetry of this battle is the unwillingness of the collectivists to declare their credo or their vision for the future. This is not the case for classical liberals who constantly display their ideological wares. So a part of these debates is the ferreting out of the collectivists' credo. And when such a tenet is expressed it is not a pejorative to identify it as belonging to a larger collection of such tenets that paints a picture of the collectivist future. The only illogic involved here is when such tenets are connected to collectivist thought which collectivists in the west have wanted to deny since at least the Bolshevik Revolution.

So yes, a 'progressive' in such debates does not want to be called out as a 'progressive', as opposed to a 'conservative' or 'libertarian' or 'conservatarian' has no problem having the source of his tenets labeled. You see, you folks are trying to bamboozle the light thinkers instead of being straight with them. Publish your credo, and do it explicitly like I have published mine and my ideological fellows have published theirs. You are not being called names, your ideas are being correctly labeled as to which ideological class they belong.

[Bill Tozer]

Very eloquent words there, Mr. Koyote. Guess that means you will not longer reject the premise of any article linked here to Fox or Brietheart, or whoever. Heck, they even tried to discount the National Inquirer about Democrat Presidential candidate John Edwards until the mag proved he really did have two Americas, one with cancer and one with child. You make me do the happy dance tonight.
Mr. Koyote, you rock. May I call you Joe? Thanks for clarifying your position on shooting the messenger when presented with information that contradicts one's beliefs. Think Ann Coulter said those exact words. Who cares if you are quoting the tall slender blonde? Her books are sizzling hot best sellers so I don't think she will mind. This calls for a group hug, Joe.
BTW Joe, I personally would believe a commie pinko any day of the week over a lying sack of dog dirt lib. You are spot on. Only a lib would ever ever believe another lib. Yes, no doubt about it that we agree and see eye to eye on this one, Joe. We agree in the arena of ideas. Happy feet time. Back in 5 minutes.

[Jon]

Todd, I had a real productive day in the great outdoors up at the North Shore. How productive were you in backing up your HUNDREDS of BILLIONS claim about curb cuts? Not much it appears. A simple sorry for your math error will suffice. You can apologize anytime for the vast exaggeration. Thanks.

[Todd Juvinall]

Joe Koyote makes a good point but in reverse of reality. I am a political person and watch and read a lot and what George said in response in absolutely true. I recall just two and a half tears ago watching JoeK's hero, Harry Reid, on the Senate floor, telling the world Mitt Romney had not filed income taxes for ten years. He said a "friend" told him. Knowing the Constitutions protected him from suit when someone lies on the Senate floor, Harry droned time after time on the lies. Mitt never responded as I would on the liar Harry Reid. Mitt practiced what JoeK said above. With kindness and disbelief. Never did Mitt Respond to those lies, he never called the scumbag Reid a name.

Politics is the place where people do exactly what they want, say what they want, and as they say, politics is war without bloodshed. As a candidate a few times I can attest to the slimey people I ran against and their troops. When elected it became even worse. Then we had public hearings and people testifying said every slimey namecalling phrase they came up with. You must develop a thick skin or you will go nutty.

So even here in little Nevada County we have a schism of thinking and people like Jeff Pelline start the research to see if one pays their taxes so they can use it to discredit others. He attacked George Boardman here about that. So my philosophy became "I will attack back". No more mister nice guy. If you read the libs here you will see they always start the namecalling. We on the right fight back. No more Harry Reids here without a response. If you are a lib or commie JoeK why not admit it. If you have a manifesto, print it for all to read.

Jon apparently has not kept pace with the thread. Was that visit to the Bunny Ranch "Jon"? LOL!

[Bill Tozer]

Oh Todd, you are spot on again. On this thread if one throws out a number, then that number becomes the sole focus and the main issue gets neatly swept away and avoided. Guess the main issue here is does government mandates for the disabled really create the opposite desired goal intended? In this case, the main point to discuss the effects of the ADA has on employment of the disabled.
Mr. Frisch clearly said that unplanned sidewalk cuts are not free. His point is they are budgeted for in the street improvement phase. Your point is they add to the cost. My point (unstated so far) is they add to the cost period, whether planned or unplanned. Like if I was going to build me a humble abode to live out my days in, I would have to budget for the permits, sprinkler system on the roof, special toilets, energy efficient windows, etc, just to comply. I may budget for all the regulations and safety requirements, save the planet in the process, but it is still coming out of my pocket!!!
So, I tend to side with you, Todd, on this one. Sure, government and planning departments can budget for anything, but it's not free, not cheap, and it's my money they are playing with.
Remember when Joe K refused to believe any article if it did not have his stamp of approval on the source. His MO was to dismiss it out of hand. Contempt prior to investigation. We all do that at times. But when he refused to even judge the merits of a link I posted from Fox or some similar cite, think it was Gregory who pointed out to Mr. Special K that the link was a reprint from AP, lol. Oh, pot meet kettle. Opps, I just did what I rail against. Got into personalities instead of substance. Me bad. Me berry berry bad.

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: Bill Tozer | 27 July 2015 at 07:45 AM

What a shock, Bill sides with Todd on this one.

Once again I never said 'free' I said the number is the incremental cost between regular maintenance and replacement and replacement with curb cuts.

And in a perfectly fact free zone Todd never has to back up his claim that the difference between the two has cost "hundreds of billions of dollars."

But even more interesting...why do you think sidewalks should be designed only for people with perfect mobility? (Or for that matter roads only for people who drive cars?) Don't disabled people and their families pay taxes too? Aren't they part of our society? Should they be constrained by the built environment when a solution is available?

The position is one of purely selfish entitlement. I don't want to pay for the disabled because I just don't want to pay dammit. I got mine.

[George Rebane]

re StevenF's 801pm - An alternative understanding about providing everything for everyone (e.g. as in infrastructure) is that a society that wants to advance and be productive must prioritize its allocation of resources. Build things that allow the most to go ahead and produce wealth, then as wealth is produced, start expanding access to the infrastructure to those not so productive for whatever reasons. But by no means halt the development and introduction of something new until all classes get to equally enjoy it. Nature (i.e. our universe) is not like that. The question then becomes as to when is the proper time and by how much should access be expanded. On that people have differences.

Administrivia - I deleted a bunch of comments that got off into body parts and just plain mudballs. If you said something important in one of those, repost it with the attendant crap.

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: George Rebane | 27 July 2015 at 08:18 AM

Yeah, well the important point was that even using his own right wing talking points Todd can't get his facts straight. Reid did not say Romney had not filed taxes in 10 years, he said he had not paid taxes in 10 years.

I think its relevant George that Todd is so frigging sloppy with his facts.

[Bill Tozer]

Oh Steve, you make valid points. My point is not to make the disabled crawl into a storefront or slide in on their butts. I have slide my way into a store on occasion on my butt when recovering from a blast in the kneecap back in the day. Not fun. Ever try pushing a stroller down the sidewalk and come across a telephone pole in the middle of the sidewalk and you only options are to push stroller into rose bushes on the right or busy road on the left, or remove infant from stroller and walk around the pole? Bad planning.

I am all for good planning. Now here comes the "but". But when cities like Philly had to RETROFIT their historic district sites and downtown to cut sidewalks, it was an expense they did not have the means to cover. Something had to give because the new laws required it. That is my point. I have to accept it, but I don't have to like it. And some things I don't like one bit and would rather kick the can down the road, which is no solution.
I just don't like being told "you have to do this or that" more and more frequently until it has become a barrage of seemingly do's and don'ts. Yep, we are dealing with emotion here. I can handle a lot of change, but some of this seems a bit over the top for being on the top of the priority list. Not referring to access for the cripples. What is next? Mega bucks for access for the blind in every nook and cranny in every single square foot of every tiny settlement in entire USA? Some changes are easy to implement, others need to exercise discretion and an easing into it.

[Todd Juvinall]

Slime bucket Harry Reid made his points more than once about Romney. I guess WIKI forgot and therefore Steve Frisch was hapless.

[Todd Juvinall]

Quiz for Frisch and "jon". How many curb cuts done in America since 1992? Add them up then multiply times $5,000 and tell us what you come up with.

[Todd Juvinall]

Here is a start for you in just one place. Manhattan

http://newyorkinplainsight.blogspot.com/2010/04/how-many-street-corners-are-there-on_19.html

[Bill Tozer]

It is so much easier when dealing with a blank canvas than trying to fit more pieces into an already completed jigsaw puzzle. Somewhere in my upbringing, the term "Central Planning" does not bring up warm and fuzzy connotations. Reminiscent of the old Soviet and Red China's 5 year plans. Just don't look behind the Iron or Bamboo Curtails.
In a perfect world, all planning would be implemented on a blank canvas. All new, built to design from the ground up. No existing places exist. Built to perfection....just like they did when our cities were built. Then someone comes along with a new regulation or mandate or code or great idea (all with associated fees) and tells ya it's all wrong. Change or shutter your doors. And the Central Planners are stunned when their "good improvement" ideas are meet with...gasp!...pushback? The Central Planners don't like being told NO as well.

[Joe Koyote]

George 9:33 The purpose of my post was to try and shed some light on why people use ad hominem attacks, nothing more, and in doing so I used a common example from these pages. One has to consider intention when assessing meaning. One has to ask, in this case, if the intention of the writer was to define a political ideology as you say or, as is sometimes the case, to discredit a writer with vague but obvious references to cold war western propaganda denouncing communism/collectivism. In the case of the latter, use of the term “collectivist” can conjure up all kinds of “evil commies” in some people's minds and thus becomes a thinly veiled ad hominem attack. This, of course, has no bearing on young people who were yet to be born during the cold war and for whom such references have little meaning.

“The great ideological polarization in our nation is between collectivism and classical liberalism.” Yes there is polarization, but that polarization seems more between the far right and much of the rest of the political spectrum as the climate change debate will attest. Your statement reflects a false dichotomy (a common propaganda ploy whether intentional or not) because there are many more ideologies (and shades of) than the two mentioned that have a stake in the outcome. Not all environmentally conscious people are “progressives”. Take the ski industry for example, corporate capitalists through and through, yet they have solidly positioned themselves in the “climate change is a man made problem that needs to be dealt with” camp. Obviously they have an economic stake in the issue, as does the oil industry in denying there is a problem.

“you folks are trying to bamboozle the light thinkers instead of being straight with them.” Another thinly veiled ad hominem attack or guilt by association attack. No one wants to be “bamboozzled” and so the suggestion that those “folks” who disagree with your ideology are somehow trying to fool “light thinkers” (another ad hominem attack) generates a negative impression, which, of course, was the intent. If the purpose of your writings, as you claim, is to present information to the “undecideds in the middle” (as opposed to pandering to fellow travelers) then you are not going to get very far by insulting your target audience.

“The only illogic involved here is when such tenets are connected to collectivist thought which collectivists in the west have wanted to deny since at least the Bolshevik Revolution.” Yet another rhetorical “guilt by association” presumably designed to discredit current progressive thought through the use of cold war rhetoric and reference to the Bolsheviks.

“What you seem to miss is the reality that this contention today has grown into a national debate that approaches a schism.” I don't miss it at all. What you miss is that the schism has been carefully constructed and nurtured by the corporatists to radically divide the country. Divide and conquer!

[Joe Koyote]

Bill 9:35 -- true.. just as the only person to believe a greedy racist nazi is another one.

[Bill Tozer]

Oh Joe, not all of us nazi racists are greedy.

[fish]

What you miss is that the schism has been carefully constructed and nurtured by the corporatists to radically divide the country. Divide and conquer!

The man railing about divisive labels (commie, collectivist) certainly doesn't hesitate to hurl his own (corporatist, reactionary, denialist....).

Hey.....all in a good cause though!

[Joe Koyote]

Bill 7:45 "Remember when Joe K refused to believe any article if it did not have his stamp of approval on the source." Please explain how this is any different than the "liberal press' argument or the hackneyed "Daily Kos" references in these pages. It cuts both ways Bill, which is my point. So in reality, very few of the posters are interested in anything more than propping up their own world view versus actually trying to logically make decisions based on truth.

[Joe Koyote]

"If you are a lib or commie JoeK why not admit it. If you have a manifesto, print it for all to read." case in point! game set match.

[Jon]

Commie/pinko terminology and humor in terms of liberal minded Americans ended somewhere about 1973, after All in The Family had its run of parody on that theme. But yet Todd still frames his discussions that way. Bizarre.

[Joe Koyote]

Fish-- I didn't use either term "reactionary or Denialist", but to use George's rationale, "corporatist" is a description of an ideology just like collectivist and progressive.

Bill: and not all of us progressives are commies.

[Bill Tozer]

Duh, Joe. We all do what we do to promote our side over the other side. Duh. And we are all hyprocites on every blog everywhere, be it hard left or ultimate hardest of hard right or tweeners. And shocking as it may appear to the newborns, we all do at times exactly what we mock the other side of doing at times. Point the index finger forward and you got 3 fingers pointing back.
Sure, I ain't going to read the George Soreass Daily News or whatever it is called. Contempt prior to investigation, the exact same thing I accused you of! But it is so much fun to mock, but not so much being mocked. "You are a bunch of cockroaches. No, you guys are the real cockroaches and jump in front of parked cars to claim attempted suicide. You're stupid. No, you are stupid and a corporate pawn. No, you are a socialist pinko commie bastard, comrade." That's what goes on everyday everywhere, Joe. Duh!

[fish]

Posted by: Joe Koyote | 27 July 2015 at 09:54 AM

......Fish-- I didn't use either term "reactionary or Denialist"

No, actually you have!

Not in your last post but in others. "Reactionary" during those posts when I was having a fabulous time excoriating progressivism. "Denialist" when discussing Global Warming/Climate Change/Lefty Weather Bingo .

You really need to think further back then today JoKe.

Maybe note taking would help.

[Bill Tozer]

Now Fish, that is how to play nice. You done good. You even offered fellow pilgrim Koyote a helpful hint and without charge. You did it for free and caring. A positive exchange of knowledge from experience. Wisdom, if you will.. Now I got the warm fuzzies.
Ok, back to hand clearing poison oak and thinning brush branches that want to argue with ya every step of the day. They don't care that it is fire season. I can silence them, but never anyone of this site, thank heavens.

[George Rebane]

JoeK 928am - I think that we will have to let our respective viewpoints stand. However, I am flattered that you seem to attribute the points clarified in my 933am to be at most sparsely held, and perhaps even unique to me. If so, then there is no reason to take you out of your comfort zone.

To the interested reader - please note that collectivists of whatever stripe are always vexed when their ideology is correctly labeled. That is not the case with those who would consume collectivism minimally and with great care.

[Bill Tozer]

You can argue facts, but not feelings. "Not all progressives are commies (yet)?" Say it ain't so, Joe. Ah, in the spirit of coming together, I will just have to take your word for it. Not! :)

[Todd Juvinall]

Fish and BillT have pigeon holed JoeK and "jon" and the other libs quite well. All hypocrites. Reading JoeK I was unaware he was so sensitive to "namecalling" and ad hominm attacks since he does it all the time. Who wooda thunk?

Jon is really obsessed with me it appears. He goes out of his way to namecall and denigrate. Then whines when it is pointed out he/she is doing so. And these libs never answer our questions! Any wonder they have zero credibility here? They can't even add.

But I do get a kick out of lib stupidity. They have their own show on cable now. "World's dumbest people". Honest to goodness!

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 27 July 2015 at 09:03 AM

You are such a TOTAL tool Todd. The questions is how many curb cuts done in America since 1992 MINUS how many curb replacements would have been done anyway.

If you don't understand that basic concept I don't know how you tie your shoes in the morning.

[Bill Tozer]

I cry foul! I'm telling Dr. Rebane on you, I am, I am. Unfair! He did it first.. Where is the social justice!
Jon, you are a snitch, a stool pigeon, a rat. Bet you ran and got the nearest hall monitor if someone took cuts in the school lunch line. I am telling and you are going to be in big trouble.
Don't be so petty.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5NuofNHKbVc

[Todd Juvinall]

Jon | 27 July 2015 at 02:06 PM

Say what? You are a troll. No one knows who your or even if you are a male or female. Now you want to censor . Typical liberal.

Answer my quiz.

[Todd Juvinall]

Here you go BillT. "jon" the hall monitor. What a hoot!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_x3InL0DNc

[Don Bessee]

The 'jon' 206 snivel neglects the fact that Todd mentioned because it is sooooo true. They never answer the questions. Like the frishcy claiming the number of ADA curbs minus what would have been repaired anyway. What BS, curb cuts are very expensive and involve more than the simple curb. Crubs have very long lives in normal use so that is again a spurious diversion from what they don't want to talk about. Minimize, divert, attack the speaker and quibble on any number but never talk to the issue at hand is the lefty game you guys try to play.

[George Rebane]

re StevenF's 134pm - Mr Frisch is correct in attempting to frame the impact of curb cuts on jurisdictional budgets in terms of their marginal costs. To do that would require a bit more than just determining the ad hoc curb cuts and summing their costs. Many (most?) curb cuts included in regularly scheduled street/sidewalk improvements also have marginal costs involved. However, a good place to start is with the cost of the ad hoc curb cuts.

[Walt]

Here is a good idea of where the fire is burning. Here is air attacks flight path.
http://www.flightradar24.com/A210/6ef4f38

The air tankers do show up as well, until they drop below radar.

[Jon]

There is no way to get to HUNDREDS of billions of dollars in curb cuts on any estimated basis. Impossible. But we already knew the exaggeration is the name of the game here when ranting about govt. regulations.

[Don Bessee]

Did ya love the Hillary Alzheimer's moment today? Started lambasting the R's for their all male candidate list, ooopsie! There are the same number of females in the R race as the D race! LOL Carly is hovering around 7th in two polls today so seems we shall see her in the debate. When is Hillary going to debate the other male socialists?

[Walt]

Best fire map I have found yet.
http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/07/25/california-lowell-fire-causing-evacuations-east-of-grass-valley/

[Jon]

...or you just go to YubaNet, which is where everyone else goes to monitor the big fires, and the local ones. KVMR was incredible this weekend with their updates. Best local insight and practical advice on the fires that impact us.
But those are Commie outlets, right Walt? LOL.

[Todd Juvinall]

GeorgeR I posted a cost as derived from a city example of let contracts for a curb cut. They are an average of $5,000. So an intersection would have four. My Manhattan example had 12,000 intersections. I asked the libs here to simply multiply it out. They were unable to do so. (public schools?)

Since 1992 curb cuts became a mandatory endeavor under ADA. So in 23 years I would think that adds up into a huge number.

[Walt]

The NC Scooper has more credibility.

[George Rebane]

ToddJ 447pm - to make a more powerful point here, I would dig up the data on national curb cuts. Multiplying intersections by four and citing Manhattan's 12K intersections doesn't take this too far. I would critique SteveF's simplistic formula by noting that many jurisdictions, in order not to lose federal monies, diverted sidewalk/street maintenance monies to curb cuts, and simply deferred the budgeted maintenance without showing the transfer to ad hoc curb cuts. Such allocations are almost impossible to document, and thereby make the precise form of this argument moot.

But we do know that the national marginal cost is easily in the billions of dollars. The reason such numbers don't cause an outcry is that their impact is broadly distributed. This is the standard way that central planners get the country's jurisdictions to do many things that they otherwise would not do - it is the usual progressives' process of death by a thousand cuts. Remember there are legions of paid bureaucrats whose jobs are to monitor that jurisdictions carry out ridiculous laws, regulations, codes in order to keep their teeth tightly clamped on the federal tit.

[Todd Juvinall]

GeorgeR, 5:23 PM. I totally agree with your points. My simple request to them was as an example. They cannot even do the rudimetary math in my quiz. Why? Becasue they will see the country has spent many many billions on curb cuts for the ADA compliance. I have no problem with helping the disabled and my omly point is the cost. But the liberal mind cannot even do basic math then extrapoltion apparently. Manhattan costs for their curb cuts would be 12,000 intersections times four times $5,000.All is asked them was to get the total as I did their work for them. Nothing. $24,000,000,000 is what I come up with for one 18 mile long island.

[Walt]

If you MAY recall,, I mentioned something about some might bitch about BBQ smoke crossing property lines. Well guess what?!! It has just happened!!
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2015/07/27/florida-residents-warned-by-county-environmentalist-to-keep-barbecue-smoke-in/?intcmp=hpbt4

Give some county employee some power and watch out. Just how does an idiot like this even get hired? ( Never mind.. It's LIBville)

[Jon]

Todd, I lived in Manhattan for a few years and spent many years in that area. They had curb cuts way before curb cuts were mandatory. Many pedestrian cities saw the same thing.

[Jon]

I'm sorry boys, but NYC did not spend 24 billion dollars on curb cuts. That's an ignorant..actually insane..proposition.

[Todd Juvinall]

Prove me wrong.

[Don Bessee]

Oh, the 'jon' slinks in, what years in what borough was that? What year were they mandatory in the US and in NY? Enquiring minds want to know. LOL

[Jon]

Dumb and Dumber, back to back. Good job boys.

[fish]

Posted by: Joe Koyote | 27 July 2015 at 09:54 AM

......Fish-- I didn't use either term "reactionary or Denialist"

I need to offer a retraction!

Koyote.....according to the search function did not use either term.

Frisch did by implication......and Ben chucked "Corporatist" at me in nearly every post for the better part of a calendar year.

Apologies Joe!

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: Jon | 27 July 2015 at 08:06 PM

Oh, wait, they must have spent $24 billion on curb cuts....Einstein did the math....at what point does credibility come into questions when people just spit stuff off the top of their vacant heads?

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: fish | 28 July 2015 at 07:00 AM

Ha! I would proudly state that I consider many here both reactionary and climate denialists.

No shame from me boys, you fit the bill.

[fish]

Posted by: Steven Frisch | 28 July 2015 at 07:07 AM

Steve....not everything is about you.

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: fish | 28 July 2015 at 07:09 AM

You're the one who brought me up Fish.

[fish]

Posted by: Steven Frisch | 28 July 2015 at 07:16 AM

You're the one who brought me up Fish.

Some context is in order. Yesterday I accused Joe of calling me "reactionary" and a "denialist". When I said it I was sure that he had. Upon checking the term "reactionary" no results were returned that were associated with Joe. Checking "denialist" also produced no results that were associated with Joe. There were a couple of your shotgun blasts where everybody disagreeing with you on climate change is lumped together in a blanket accusation (that's fine).

I admit that I lose track sometimes who is saying what to/about whom. That's what the retraction addresses.

[Todd Juvinall]

As the reader can read for themselves, "Jon" and Steve Frisch now attack me and call Walt and I names for simply do some multiplication they would not do (or could not do). I gave them every chance to prove me wrong about "curb cuts" and they never did. Yet "Jon" claims to have lived in New York and claims some knowledge based on nothing. Frisch attacks the math! All of you people take note that when a lib/commie loses the debate they turn to namecalling and never answer the question. An Alinsky tactic right here in River City. What a hoot!

[Michael R. Kesti]

Todd Juvinall 28Jul15 07:58 AM

"...and call Walt and I names..."

That would properly be "Walt and me."

Hint: try it without the first person reference and see whether it sounds correct. In this case, you wouldn't say "...and call I names..." so you should not use "...and call Walt and I names..."

[George Rebane]

MichaelK 831am - It's a thankless job these days when they hear the same usage coming from the media and even the halls of Congress.

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 28 July 2015 at 07:58 AM

O)once again Todd, you threw the number out, it is put o you to source it. Even George agrees this is a marginal cost calculation, something you seem to be unable to fathom. Thank God you are not doing our County budget anymore :)

[Michael R. Kesti]

George Rebane 28Jul15 08:38 AM

So true.

I used to wonder whether many had earned high school diplomas but I now doubt that they have attended grammar school (pun intended, based on the US meaning of the term).

I suppose that it is just as well that I seek no thanks!