The Millennials have Sustainably Tipped Us (updated 16jul15)

George Rebane

[This is the addended transcript of my regular KVMR commentary aired on 15 July 2015.]

You’ve all heard of generational groupings like the so-called Greatest Generation, Baby Boomers, and Gen Xers.  Well, the latest are the Millennials, those born between 1980 and 1997.  This cohort is now in their young adult years, and they have arrived on the scene with a markedly different worldview and priorities than their predecessors.  For openers, none of them lived through or understood the Cold War.

Their view of the United States is not so much tempered by our exceptionalism, patriotism, capitalism, or even our beneficent role serving as the world’s sheriff.  They do not see Russia, China, and even Iran as geo-strategic competitors or possible foes of America, but as peer nations on the global scene doing pretty much normal stuff to serve their national interests without seeking hegemony over their neighbors.  And for the first time the new demographic cohort contains more self-declared liberals than conservatives – 30% to 28%.  Given the recorded sentiments of the so-called Moderates at 40%, I would conclude that during the last decade the country has swung markedly toward the Left.

The Cato Institute has published an informative compendium of recent polls and studies of the Millennials which concludes they are “more liberal, more ethnically and racially diverse, more technology centered, more supportive of government action to solve problems, and the best-educated generation in US history.” - the latter at least when counting the number of issued high school diplomas and college degrees.

Millenials see the US and the world heading toward a global order.  While not quite trusting human nature and individualism, Millennials hold that bigger and more comprehensive governments will be able to calm and control man’s animal spirits.  In such an environment Millennials see the world as a less threatening place than do their predecessors.  And without perceiving sharp outlines of global threats, Millennials don’t see the need for America to project power.  Today only 2% of Millenials have served in the military, and to them talk of the Cold War and how the world was then is a turn-off.  Their schooling has given them a distinctly counter-image of what it was like when the US and the USSR maintained peace through the threat of mutual assured destruction.  But that was then, and this is now.

When we look at the recent focus in higher education, we see a great emphasis on the inclusion of ‘sustainability’ as the driving constant now incorporated into all areas of college curriculum.  This is the new Agenda21-compatible watchword that unites all subjects, and in which today one can earn a college degree.  The unifying idea of ‘sustainability’ is that “curtailing economic, political, and intellectual liberty is the price that must be paid to ensure the welfare of future generations.” (more here)  That tenet alone explains why Millennials have come to accept curtailment of campus speech as the new norm.  They believe that such curtailment should spread into general society and cause no problems, especially to the “best-educated generation in US history.”

Today, according to the Association for the Advancement of Sustainability in Higher Education, there exist 1,438 academic sustainability programs at 475 colleges which recognize completion with degrees up to and including doctorates.  But the question remains - who in the private sector would hire people with such skill sets if they were not under a state mandate to do so?  The answer is obvious when the employer is a government agency.  And that may explain why so many Millennials are proponents of big and bigger government. 

So there we have it dear listener.  The new Millennials have been sustainably educated, are established in our midst, and by their growing presence have already tipped the scales to a new future that continues to throw off the ideas and values of the exiting Silent Generation and the soon to exit Boomers.  The die is being recast for ‘Peace in Our Time’, while no one remembers what happened in 1938.

My name is Rebane, and I also expand on this and related themes on georgerebane.com where the addended transcript of this commentary is posted with relevant links, and where such issues are debated extensively.  However my views are not necessarily shared by KVMR.  Thank you for listening.

[Addendum]  By coincidence the 15jul15 WSJ contains a report by former Indiana governor Mitch Daniels on James Pierson’s new book Shattered Consensus: The Rise and Decline of America’s Post-war Political Order.  Pierson makes the compelling case that America is on the threshold of a new and dark revolution of the magnitude of three previous ones which shook and determined new directions for our country – “…the Jeffersonian revolution, which ushered in a long period of dominance of a new anti-Federalist party; the Civil War, which vanquished slavery and set off the ascendancy of northern Republicanism; and the New Deal, which dramatically expanded the size and intrusiveness of the federal government in Americans’ lives.”

The consensus, which “assigned the national government responsibility for maintaining full employment and for policing the world in the interests of democracy, trade, and national security”, began to weaken in the 1960s and accelerated in the 1970s.  But it has been with the Millenials during Obama’s administration that the actual collapse has started.  Pierson argues that such a consensus, which “is required in order for a polity to meet its major challenges, no longer exists in the United States. That being so, the problems will mount to a point where either they will be addressed through a ‘fourth revolution’ or the polity will begin to disintegrate for lack of fundamental agreement.”  In these pages we have referred to this epoch as the beginning of the Great Divide.

Pierson asks his readers to question certain aspects of the veered political course taken by our country, for example “how will the contemporary left resolve the original progressive contradiction, which persists today: Affecting to be tribunes of ‘the people’ and advocates for democracy, in practice so-called progressives demonstrate a dismissive impatience with democracy in favor of rule by the diktats of our benevolent betters, namely them.”

He also points out that the “massive programs” envisioned by the progressives all require the rich to get much richer while at the same time allowing an ever greater share of the fruits of their risky labors to be taxed away.  Contemplating Pierson’s warnings, we recall that there is no solution to this conundrum in the growth of the government-corporate complex, because the result is inevitably an even larger bureaucracy that cuts the risk/reward feedback paths and mangles the management of the enterprises through usually insane partitions of authority and accountability.  And the carefully filled heads of the new Millennials are innocent of such considerations.

[16jul15 update]  The comment stream under this post is heartening, especially in the enthusiastic and voluminous participation by our liberal readers.  The alert reader will discount the obviously limited scope of their studies as they continue to accuse their ideological opposites of being small in number and uniquely holed up and isolated here in these foothills.  Given their information sources, such mistakes are understandable.

One progressive commenter’s contribution stands out as a posterchild proxy for many of the others as he addresses me who might also serve as a proxy for those of my generation and background.  For openers, the gentleman is completely unfamiliar with the bespoke literature documenting chapter and verse of free speech on college campuses, and he apparently does not know many current students nor has visited today’s college campuses.  He states with some assurance –

“…no George, it's just your antiquated 19th century world view that has proscribed progress, change, and the evolution of society. Slavery was once thought to be an acceptable economic model, no longer. Communism was once thought to be a threat, no longer. Polluting and ransacking the planet's resources for profit was once thought to be the engine of progress, no longer. It's not that the millennials (I have two) are naive, uneducated, or stupid, in fact, it is quite the opposite. They have much broader view of the world because the world has changed, something you and your cohorts don't seem to understand. It is time to pass the baton to those who understand the present and don't dwell in a past that no longer exists. Like it or not.. things they are a changin' and the world view you adhere to is no longer relevant in the 21st century.”

For the reader new to these pages, I am a technologist (with posted vitae), teacher, and entrepreneur (also a grandfather and great-grandfather).  In working at the cutting edge of knowledge I and others like me have always been in the minority, have always had our ideas initially rejected by the establishment.  But it is people like me and of my generation and professional background who in their life’s work have given us the blessings of the world we now live in.  It has been our forward looking ideas and creativity that have provided the technical advances, new systems and services, novel organizational structures, and jobs that propelled this nation into the computer and space ages, and then developed the businesses that understood the technologies and greatly contributed to the country’s wealth during the last half century.

I challenge anyone with a smidgeon of 19th century history under their belt to produce evidence from these pages that characterizes me as having an “antiquated 19th century worldview” – clearly the above commenter does not qualify.  And to put a bow on it, I am proud of the prescience that RR and many of its commenters have shown in foretelling the (sad) course of events that have put us on our current national trek to authoritarianism, a path on which our newest adults have been taught that a sustainable future requires “curtailing economic, political, and intellectual liberty (as) the price that must be paid to ensure the welfare of future generations.”  This is what the Left considers forward looking 21st century thought?!  However tragic, they may actually be right, but they err greatly in the nature of the “welfare” they will bequeath future generations.

In my seventies I am active in a wide range of organizations, I have the good fortune to exchange ideas directly and personally with my political leaders and intellectual fellow travelers, I remain an active and productive developer of new technology, and I am blessed to be in association with, yes, Millennials with whom we have created yet another technology based enterprise that is now a major employer in our area.  Did I mention that I also have five grandchildren in college?

So I wonder how in touch are my liberal critics, are they keeping up with what is happening in technology, economics, youth, and the geo-political roilings of the world; and how then are they contributing to its progress?  But I do know why they read RR, constantly disparage it, and yet continue to participate in this blog’s extensive debates.  Somewhere deep inside they know that the ideas promoted in these pages are real and have a real audience.  They know that these ideas comport with human nature and have made this world an acceptable place in which to live and raise families.  More importantly they feel that it is these same ideas that will carry the day with a free and informed citizenry, and in doing so will give lie to the worldview they were taught and have cherished through the years.  So it is important for them to come and contend, and it is important also for the rest of us to have them do that with the greatest acumen they can muster.

No matter which way the current gale blows, we in the minority – especially in the realm of ideas – continue to express our hope for the future by passing on the values and mores of liberty, individualism, and enterprise.  We will not go quietly into the dark night that awaits us all.  

Comments

[RL Crabb]

Usually, when the progressive wing of the Democratic party gets too cocky, the voters go in the other direction. It was obvious to me that it was happening in '78, after years of Jerry Brown and Jimmy Carter. First came Prop 13 and then the Reagan landslide. With Obama's "rule by decree" attitude, you'd think that we were poised for it to happen again in 2016. The difference is the millennial and latino vote. The only way the Repubby's will win this one is to nominate someone who has evolved beyond the neanderthal stage. Good luck with that.

[Todd Juvinall]

The country wants a knuckle dragger to give it back its credibility. We are poised to have a wipeout with ours.

[Bob Hobert]

I would eagerly have been born alongside my father in 1920, and grown up and served and prospered as part of his Greatest Generation during the apogee of American exceptionalism.

[Jon]

No sign anywhere of your supposed "wipe out" in 2016. Zilch. Did you just read anything about the shifting demographics, the same ones we first saw in 2012, now to accelerate in 2016? No one except you is predicting a wipeout. Many predicted one in 2012...we know your prediction then, and what happened. Not enough angry right wing rednecks to win national elections.

[Patricia Smith]

I think you can all relax because the majority of Millennails are turned off by politics and don't trust either party enough to vote.

[George Boardman]

And the millennials certainly wouldn't waste their time on something so inconsequential as Sierra FoodWineArt.

[Todd Juvinall]

Patricia is on to something. It is all about turnout. We knuckledraggers tend to do more. LOL!

I thibnk that blog called Sierra Foothills blah blah blah has never made it out of Nevada City. ROTFLMAO!

[Ben Emery]

George,
What is the difference between defense spending which you made a career out of and spending on sustainability? Isn't it about the values of the time. The founders didn't fear Communism like you did. I know it is tough but your worldview is outdated and really has little relevance to today's values. Mine are on the way out as well but are still more relevant for the time being. Also since I have never fully have given myself up to a career may adaptability to changing times and themes is a bit easier. You are the elder that has many lessons to give but in a world of rapidly changing technology that wisdom has become obsolete, which is a mistake in my opinion. Your wisdom has little to do with your political ideology and more to do with your life experiences on work ethic, family, culture, ect....

[Russ Steele]

Yale Professor: Today’s students “so ignorant”

David Gelernter is a brilliant professor at Yale. In a recent interview, he exposes one of modern society’s dirtiest little secrets–university students, even elite ones, don’t know anything.

I’m a teacher of college students. I’m lucky to be at one of the best colleges in the world, at Yale. Our students are as smart as any in the world. They work very hard to get here. They are eager, they’re likable. My generation is getting a chip on its shoulder, we always thought we knew everything about every topic, our professors were morons, and we were the ones who were building the world.

My students today are much less obnoxious. Much more likable than I and my friends used to be, but they are so ignorant that it’s hard to accept how ignorant they are. You tell yourself stories; it’s very hard to grasp that the person you’re talking to, who is bright, articulate, advisable, interested, and doesn’t know who Beethoven is. Had no view looking back at the history of the 20th century – just sees a fog. A blank. Has the vaguest idea of who Winston Churchill was or why he mattered. And maybe has no image of Teddy Roosevelt, let’s say, at all. I mean, these are people who – We have failed.

[…]

[H]ow did we get to this point today when my students know nothing?

They know nothing about art. They know nothing about history. They know nothing about philosophy. And because they have been raised as not even atheists, they don’t rise to the level of atheists, insofar as they’ve never thought about the existence or nonexistence of God. It has never occurred to them. [Emphasis added.]

And remember, these are students attending a world-class university. At a less elite school like UD, the situation is inevitably even worse. We can in fact confirm that things have gotten so bad that it’s nearly impossible to make learned allusions during class lectures–they just fly over the students’ heads.

More here: http://www.governmentalwaysfails.com/yale-professor-todays-students-so-ignorant/

They do not see any need to know anything once they get the sustainability and global warming talking points memorized. The problem is once they come to the end of these talking points, they start mumbling and resort to personal attacks on their questioner. Similar to some of the responses we get from liberal posters on this blog.

[Walt]

Hay millennials.. Ever hear of Greece? Your ideas will make that a reality here.
Hell. Your already whining, and demanding forgiveness of student loans.

[George Rebane]

BenE 810pm - Sustainability is a generalized progressive ideological concept dressed up as a socially critical field of study that is arbitrarily cobbled onto other legitimate curricula in order to indoctrinate the student. Including sustainability components in such courses subtracts from the time and attention students should give to learn what they paid for. Sustainability as a degree program is out-and-out academic fraud practiced both on the student and the society into which he eventually must return as a productive citizen.

Defense work is performed and contracted by the government to fulfill its prime constitutional responsibility and function to secure the nation. Hope this helps.

[Ben Emery]

Russ,
Spoken like a true old fart. I hear myself saying stuff like that to my kids who are now in the 20's. Honestly how much about art, history, or philosophy did you truly know or understand in your late teens? My guess compared to a 30, 40, 50, 60, and 70 year old you not to much.

".....what was proper 50 years ago is not proper today. So the virtues of the past are the vices of today, and many of what were thought to be the vices of the past are the necessities of today. And the moral order has to catch up with the moral necessities of actual life in time, here and now, and that’s what it’s not doing, and that’s why it’s ridiculous..."- Joseph Campbell 1988

[Russ Steele]

I guess the states economy is not sustainable enough for nearly a third of California's citizens.

New study says a third of Californians in poverty -- Nearly a third of California’s households “struggle each month to meet basic needs,” largely because of the state’s high cost of living, a new study by United Ways of California concludes. Dan Walters in the Sacramento Bee$ -- 7/15/15

[Walt]

So Ben,, just what is sustainable when gov. pisses away money faster than it comes in?
The constant borrowing from the likes of China. yup,, that will sure be sustainable.
Your guy's answer (Sanders) is tax the living shit out of everyone. Yup,, that will sure sustain things. Greece is finding that out. Other people's money has run out, and their government is cutting the freebees, now the natives are pissed.
Do tell how handouts are sustainable.

[Ben Emery]

Walt,
I don't of anybody who wants hand outs. Do you consider paying into Social Security a hand out? How about medicare or unemployment insurance? Police, fire, education, ect... We are paying our dues to live in a structured/ civilized society. We pay into all those programs and we cannot help if our government borrowed that money to invade two countries without raising taxes to pay for it, give tax breaks to millionaires and billionaires, cronyism in the pharmaceutical industry with the Medicare Part D, and this phony war on terror that is costing our nation trillions of dollars to execute. All Big Government and all Big Government the Republican Party Supports and far too many inside the Democratic Party.

[Ben Emery]

Russ,
Check this out.

Game Changing Climate Leadership: What Happens in California Doesn’t Stay in California
"As the world’s eight largest economy, California is emerging as the potential game-changer for global climate leadership. Using strategic alliances and smart policies that integrate ecology, economy and justice, these climate leaders show how:"
https://beta.prx.org/stories/153857

[Bill Tozer]

Oh younger Emery @ 10:40 at night.. Hello. Is the green industry in CA still 1.2 % of the CA workforce? Haha, just messing with you. Should be topping 3% by last year and it keeps growing. And yes, you can count all the janitors and forklift operators and the guys who hauls the solar panels to the dump as clean green jobs. Matters not to me. You can even toss in the lady in the booth at the scales at the dump as well.

So, that is what the quotes you just provided means by "Justice". Sweet. You got one of the Trinity fingered. Ecology. Now when you "integrate ecology, economy, and justice" you kinda make a mess of things where the rubber meets the road. Think ithe grand idea should taken back to the drawing board for a regroup and come up with Balance instead of A Balancing Act, IMHO.

[Jon]

Todd, you older right wingers have been slaughtered demographically in national elections for the last 8 years and the numbers are not getting better as you old geezers die off. Trump has just killed off any hope of the emerging latino vote...unless the very young and very green Marco Rubio emerges out of obvlivion. Not happening. Same demographic problem as always in the last decade, getting worse for Rebubbies.

If you don't agree, please show some data to back up your prediction of a right wing landslide. Good luck!

[Jon]

Ben nailed it with his linked article. Lots of ostrich heads under the sand right now, lots of right wing talking points to counter the facts. Lots of right wingers not accepting of the reality of CA's leadership role in the world. I love it.

[Jon]

Hey Walt, do you even know anything about the Greece situation? Apparently not. Taxes is what caused their problems?

How utterly ignorant you are about Greece and Europe.

[Todd Juvinall]

Show us some evidence of a democrat takeover across the country.

[fish]

.....more supportive of government action to solve problems,

Aren't they going to be disappointed.

[Steven Frisch]

"Hey you, get off my grass!"

Reading this thread just kind of makes me chuckle and reminds me of why I come back here for humor.

George has it right. You guys have already lost. American universities are turning out tens of thousands of graduates a year who think that we improve efficiency when we internalize externalities, understand that climate change is anthropogenic, don't care about their peers sexual orientation or national origin, believe that resources need to be allocated more efficiently and fairly, don't trust American corporate systems to do what is right, and who look at the Baby Boom generation as yesterdays news.

(By the way, for my friend Ben, they also think modern politics and money in politics is bullshit and will eventually get you the campaign finance reforms you seek.)

With policy stalled at the Federal level California is leading the way, and Washington, Oregon, British Columbia, Quebec and many, many others are following suit. The Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative in the northeast corridor is pricing carbon and using the proceeds to redirect the economy away from damaging behavior just as the California Cap and Trade program is.

I work with networks of people across the country who have left national politics behind and are implementing sustainable practices and climate adaptation at the local level, not because some arcane 30 year old UN document talks about it, but because they are the policies their communities need to thrive. No one cares if bike lanes were an example of an A 21 strategy, they build bike lanes because young people want to ride bikes. Period.

For the acolytes of George's world view the news I have for you is that you have already lost, and to the extent that your political and economic philosophy is increasingly out of touch with the new reality, are relegated to, "Hey you, get off my grass!"

[Todd Juvinall]

Yep spoken like a man who never had kids. No we haven't lost anything electorally. Maybe we will someday when the brainwashing of people like you takes hold. Everyone can be on the dole but then who will make the money for you tax-takers to spend? My goodness, look around th world and you see chaos and the forces of chaos are doing their best to infiltrate this country. Pollute the minds of the young just like the totalitarians do. You may be trying out for local commissar but I think the forces of light will defeat you. The millennials will come around.

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 16 July 2015 at 07:24 AM

"You talking' to me?"

[Joe Jackson]

TWIMC: The year 1995 sets on the the cusp between the generations Gen X and Millennials. Millennial are gaining the vote. Gen X is moving into power.

[fish]

For the acolytes of George's world view the news I have for you is that you have already lost, and to the extent that your political and economic philosophy is increasingly out of touch with the new reality, are relegated to, "Hey you, get off my grass!"

What new reality would that be....the one where kids want bike lanes in which to furiously peddle or the one where the financials for the US Federal government aren't that much different from those of Greece?

I got news for you bold visionaries....most of us old farts don't have too much trouble adapting.

Were I you I would be frantically be scrambling for a way to keep all those plates spinning.

[Todd Juvinall]

We will take back the schools from the leftwing usurpers. The fifth columnists. We know our kids will do the right thing and protect America and themselves from the tyranny of the Alinskites and liberals.

[fish]

An example of action at the grass roots (municipal) level to "make things work".....

http://reason.com/blog/2015/07/16/stephen-reed-harrisburg-indictment

I guess Kinsella was wrong.....if you build it they still aren't coming.

[fish]

Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 16 July 2015 at 07:45 AM

I wouldn't hold my breath on this Todd.

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: fish | 16 July 2015 at 07:45 AM

Greece huh?

I don't usually use data from the American Enterprise Institute but here it is in charts via Vox.

http://www.vox.com/2015/7/1/8871509/greece-charts

Greek unemployment >25%
US unemployment <6%

Greek per capita income: $23K
US per capita income: $55K

US 10 year GDP: +4.0%
Greek 10 year GDP: - 1.0 %

Greek Debt to GDP ratio: 1.77:1
US Debt to GDP ratio: 1.01:1

(Which I will grant you ain't good for us and ain't Germany's .74:1, but it ain't unmanageable since our economy is growing)

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 16 July 2015 at 07:45 AM

Seriously Todd, I think your belief in 'taking back' your schools is absolutely delusional. I see the product of our universities every year coming through my doors in in the networks I work in and you have lost ground every year.

You lost ground because your ideas are without merit, they fail in the great competition of ideas that takes place in academia....consistently.

[Steven Frisch]

Ooops, the statistics I quoted on Greece v. USA are actually from the World Bank not AEI or Vox.

[fish]

Posted by: Steven Frisch | 16 July 2015 at 08:07 AM

You're adorable when you post stats like this......

Do you see the government spending profile improving in the future Steve? Do you see significantly improving export and manufacturing numbers? Do you see the huge number of people not in the labor force magically finding reasonably well paying productive jobs in the next year or so?

Wait what......?

We're putting in Bike Lanes across cities all over the US........?

Hmmmm maybe you're right.....economy all fixed! Because economy.

[fish]

Posted by: Steven Frisch | 16 July 2015 at 08:09 AM

You lost ground because your ideas are without merit, they fail in the great competition of ideas that takes place in academia....consistently.

Yes the thought controlled progressive "high ground" is truly where the free exchange of ideas occurs....

Thanks for this mornings yucks!

[Todd Juvinall]

Interesting to me is the changes for the worse in my lifetime. We have liberals in charge of education, government bureaucracies and other places where they have done terrible mischief to our land. No wonder they fight against vouchers and force thousands of regulations down the throats of American citizens. There is a coming to Jesus and I would not want to be a eco-grant taker, a liberal or even a democrat once the people have their say.

[Steven Frisch]

Fish, you might be surprised that I also think debt to GDP ration is a problem nd that we should be working to reduce it to a more manageable 50%, which would be more in line with our historic averages, and that underemployment is an issue and that we should be reducing it. I am not pollyanna. But the sky is also not falling.

I think export and manufacturing are directly tied to job skills training and infrastructure investment, which is a legitimate role of government through public/private partnerships, and that to really increase exports and manufacturing and increase employment and quality of employment we need to make smart investments.

To think about this in a "year or so" timeline is unrealistic.

And of course you are going to mock my example, so let me give you a different one--installed solar PV at utility scale at less than the price of natural gas--it is coming my friend, because of investments in technology and in some cases yes subsidies, but when it comes it will blow people's fossil fuel portfolios out of the water.

http://ecowatch.com/2015/07/15/cheapest-electricity-solar/

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: Steven Frisch | 16 July 2015 at 08:07 AM

But you did not answer the question. You said, "...the financials for the US Federal government aren't that much different from those of Greece?"

Greece huh?

As usual, the blogosphere is full of dramatic overstatements unsupported by actual facts.

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 16 July 2015 at 08:24 AM

And Todd, you did not answer my questions either, "You talking' to me?"

Yes, I am speaking like a man who has not had a child. I am also talking like a man who does not have to pay child support, or alimony, or make regular appearances in family court. :)

[fish]

Fish, you might be surprised that I also think debt to GDP ration is a problem nd that we should be working to reduce it to a more manageable 50%, which would be more in line with our historic averages, and that underemployment is an issue and that we should be reducing it. I am not pollyanna. But the sky is also not falling.

Good we agree that debt to GDP is a problem.....and I think that we will both again agree that little will be done to remedy it.

And of course you are going to mock my example, so let me give you a different one--installed solar PV at utility scale at less than the price of natural gas--it is coming my friend, because of investments in technology and in some cases yes subsidies, but when it comes it will blow people's fossil fuel portfolios out of the water.

...and when this state of PV technology arrives (and of course without the "externalities" of government subsidy) we will celebrate together.

[George Rebane]

SteveF 809am - Unfortunately, as reported here and many other places, "the great competition of ideas" has been proscribed for years in our universities.

[fish]

Posted by: Steven Frisch | 16 July 2015 at 08:27 AM

As is so often the case neither side seems to able to agree on a consistent set of terms and assumptions.

Favorable to your position: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2013/10/23/does-the-united-states-have-128-trillion-in-unfunded-liabilities/

Of course it does seem to rely on a great deal of "blue sky and sunshine" theorizing.

A little more dubious:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323353204578127374039087636

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2014/01/17/you-think-the-deficit-is-bad-federal-unfunded-liabilities-exceed-127-trillion/

But to the specific point.....

Country: United States

Average of CIA and IMF data: 80.2

Public debt as % of GDP (CIA): 72.5

Gross government debt as % of GDP (IMF): 106.5

Net government debt as % of GDP (IMF): 87.9

Country: Greece

Average of CIA and IMF data: 158.4

Public debt as % of GDP (CIA): 161.3

Gross government debt as % of GDP (IMF): 158.5

Net government debt as % of GDP (IMF): 155.4

So yes Greece is worse but I wouldn't be quite so sanguine about the fiscal condition of the US with those numbers.

As we are reminded, To ensure debt sustainability, the volume of debt does not have to decline. It is sufficient that it be on a firm downward trajectory as a share of nominal GDP. Of course the whole sustainability thing comes into play I believe....compounded growth in an attempt to "grow your way out of an economic mess" really throws a wrench into that notion.

[George Rebane]

For the interested reader, we must point out again that 'Debt to GDP Ratio' is NEVER a problem. The only problem is 'Debt Service to GDP Ratio'. When a borrower convinces lenders that he is capable of servicing the next level of debt, there is no end to the amount he can borrow. That is why interest rates are such a critical factor in discussing everything from personal to national finances.

Focusing on some measure of the amount of debt takes the eye off the ball. The amount becomes a problem only if you have to pay it off instead of being able to roll it over and continue servicing it. Nation states no longer even plan on paying off debt, substituting economic growth to reduce the pain of servicing the debt. And it is with the motivation and management of vigorous growth that socialism (or any form of collectivism) has fundamental problems. This is what we are seeing with Greece, other EU nations, and soon America drunk on socialism's siren song.

[Joe Koyote]

"There is a coming to Jesus and I would not want to be a eco-grant taker, a liberal or even a democrat once the people have their say."--

So is Jesus going to punish ecologists, liberals, and democrats? What about money changers, pornographers, and polluters? Or are they Ok because they make money.

"as reported here and many other places, "the great competition of ideas" has been proscribed for years"-- no George, it's just your antiquated 19th century world view that has proscribed progress, change, and the evolution of society. Slavery was once thought to be an acceptable economic model, no longer. Communism was once thought to be a threat, no longer. Polluting and ransacking the planet's resources for profit was once thought to be the engine of progress, no longer. It's not that the millennials (I have two) are naive, uneducated, or stupid, in fact, it is quite the opposite. They have much broader view of the world because the world has changed, something you and your cohorts don't seem to understand. It is time to pass the baton to those who understand the present and don't dwell in a past that no longer exists. Like it or not.. things they are a changin' and the world view you adhere to is no longer relevant in the 21st century.

Sustainability is not a buzzword or hollow endeavor, it is a necessary part of the future if the human race is to survive in some civilized fashion short of Mad Max. Unfortunately, for some, sustainability does not support the exploitive corporate economic model now in place, and thus, rankles the feathers of those who still live in the past.

[fish]

Unfortunately, for some, sustainability does not support the exploitive corporate economic model now in place, and thus, rankles the feathers of those who still live in the past.

What's it say about that ever growing government sector JoKe?

[joe smith]

My Granddad was a professor at an Ivy League University in the 60's. To this day I can still hear him lamenting the "loss of a generation" because his students had failed to immerse themselves in the liberal arts to a degree that they could make learned decisions and not simply repeat the mistakes of the past. In his time Latin, penmanship, spelling, and math were the backbones of future movers and shakers. David Gelertner and other old farts might do well to look at the opinions and predictions of people like themselves only 50 years ago. Expressions prefaced by phrases such as "when I was a kid" or "kids these days" have been passed down through countless generations.

[Jon]

Steve..just observing again that I think the many recent progressive accomplishments in the news have created a new monster in Todd- seems to be a blend of McCarthy and Agnew..."taking back"..."the Forces of Chaos"...Language like we are back in the Cold War era! But as Todd opines, those were much better days in his opinion. LOL.

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: fish | 16 July 2015 at 09:23 AM

Does not surprise me at al that the actual financial metrics as reported by the CA world fact book (which I like and trust by the way) and the Word Bank (which I also like and trust) would not be completely in synch (although in this case they are substantively the same). When measuring at this macro scale it snot uncommon for different entities to measure slightly differently.

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: George Rebane | 16 July 2015 at 09:30 AM

If the case is that 'debt service to gap ration' is the issue then we are in even better shape, and at odds with Fish's statement that, ".... "...the financials for the US Federal government aren't that much different from those of Greece?" because at least we are reducing our annual budget deficit as opposed to Greece's which even under "austerity' continued to grow.

[fish]

Posted by: Steven Frisch | 16 July 2015 at 10:50 AM

...and which oughta be reversing sometime this fall.

Most taxes collected ever this year....debt continues to grow.

[Steven Frisch]

"There is a coming to Jesus and I would not want to be a eco-grant taker, a liberal or even a democrat once the people have their say."

All I have to say is that I do not fear the second coming of Jesus either. I'm pretty confident he would be more aligned with my values. But I guess he was actually saying that once the 'people have their say' our presence would be would be unwelcome. I am once again confident that I would fare well in a 'revolution'.

[Joe Koyote]

Carp: 9:36 -- The ever growing government is the direct result of the ever growing corporations. Don't you get that government is the shill for the corporations? The IMF has pegged the wealth transfer (subsidies) from taxpayers to the oil industry, including health care costs associated with fossil fuel pollution, not including climate change issues and costs, at $700b A YEAR. Add to that trade agreements, off shore banking and other tax dodge laws passed by congress and signed by a president that also amount to taxpayer subsidies and the picture begins to sharpen a little.

Of course, you don't mean those kinds of government expansions. You are more likely referring to things like the EPA, Consumer Protections, labor laws, etc.. (i.e. things that benefit the country at large rather than large multinational corporations.) You must remember that the law of the land is caveat emptor, buyer beware. The public needs those protections because corporate officers have a legal duty (yet another government sanctioned and court upheld "law") to put profit before the public. They are duty bound to poison the public if that is the most profitable business model. How sick is that? The whole "government is bad/deregulation" propaganda put out by the corporate funded think tanks is nothing more than a ruse, a dodge, and a smokescreen to put the blame elsewhere. The same holds true with the idea that regulations hurt jobs. Another excuse for outsourcing overseas. It's not because of the regulations, it's because cheap labor, lax environmental standards, and low taxation which equals greater profit, are the real reasons why corporate American abandoned American workers. The propagandists then take the anger of the masses and channel it toward "evil government" deflecting the real blame and further enhancing the position and power of the corporations all in the name of freedom.

[Jon]

Agreed Steve. Still looking for Bible passages that speak to the preferred values of wealth accumulation and its pursuit. Todd, can you help? And just exactly who are the PEOPLE of the "when the people have their say" comment?

[Patricia Smith]

I also agree with Joe's comment (11:21pm) . I cannot fathom why anyone would think corporations would "do the right thing" without regulations is beyond me (which is not to say some regulations are well-meaning, but not effective). They just pick up and move to another country when things get too hot.

Also, if green energy companies recieved even 10% of the overall subsidies we give to gas & oil companies, they would be able to make this type energy cost effective and plentiful. But since you can't invade another country to steal their sunlight, I won't hold my breath.

[Gregory]

It's amazing how, when discussing regulations governing corporate behavior (not to mention everyone else), the left seems to be saying there aren't any now. Where is this "unfettered capitalism" I keep hearing about? Not anywhere in the US and particularly not in California.

Regarding Frisch and his testimony (thank you, Bre'r Steven) regarding every youngling coming to his door being progressive, well, that's because the one's that aren't don't come to your door. A low paying (or not paying) job at an eco 501c3 gets a self selected population of kids with soft degrees.

"Sustainability" as a rallying cry will last only as long as AGW being effective as a scare tactic, and that is on its way out. The volume will keep rising at least until December's Climapalooza, but if that fizzles it could soon be in a freefall.

[George Rebane]

PatriciaS 219pm - Totaling all 'oil subsidies' comes to about $4B annually. You would be surprised at the make-up of that sum and who are its backers. In any event, before waxing eloquently on fossil fuel subsidies, a little learning might be in order. Here's a good place to get an overview.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/energysource/2012/04/25/the-surprising-reason-that-oil-subsidies-persist-even-liberals-love-them/

[Don Bessee]

I am shocked, shocked I tell you that the 'jon' agrees with frichy and pattie agrees with them! LOL

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: Gregory | 16 July 2015 at 02:47 PM

"I work with networks of people across the country...."

I am not just talking about people coming to my door, I am talking hundreds and thousands of students a year going into business who have the values I described.

"Regarding Frisch and his testimony (thank you, Bre'r Steven) regarding every youngling coming to his door being progressive, well, that's because the one's that aren't don't come to your door. A low paying (or not paying) job at an eco 501c3 gets a self selected population of kids with soft degrees."

And of course Greg you are completely full of crap about this. First, we pay well. Second, we don;t do any unpaid internships, we actually do well paying internships which is why we get students from Yale, UCLA, UCSB, Stanford, etc.

Third, sustainability is not a climate related rallying cry.

[Todd Juvinall]

Of course you pay well. It is from the taxpayer! We know how well the NGO's and bureaucrats watch the spending. Jeeze.

The people one NGO exec meets is the same NGO everywhere else. Including employees! They are all brainwashed with leftwing propaganda. Mao would be proud.

[Gregory]

The two white guys at the top of the so-called "Sierra Business Council" are paid well but as far as I can tell from the tax returns the mostly white women making up the vast majority of the worker bees are getting something like $50k compensation average, I assume including benefits. I'll guess the new grads are much lower than the average, probably a fraction of what my kid gets paid to be a grad student especially if you consider the value of the education that goes with it.

And "sustainability" is very much a climate rallying cry. Here's a link to a UN site that links sustainability, climate change and Agenda 21. Imagine that.

[Gregory]

Damn, the link didn't get there...
https://sustainabledevelopment.un.org/topics/climatechange

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 16 July 2015 at 03:10 PM
Posted by: Gregory | 16 July 2015 at 03:34 PM

You can both throw all the stones you want to but you're both speaking from a position of total ignorance. By the way we have a four person management team and two of them are women. You also know nothing about benefits or anything else.

But even more important no one gives a darn what you think, smart college grads are still knocking on my door, learning real workforce skills, and going out into the world and the work force as acolytes, while you guys are sitting on the porch watching the world pass you by.

[Gregory]

The President and VP are both white guys. A couple of the women get to be on the management team, how nice. It's still virtually lilly white and mostly female. No blacks have applied?

Of 23 photos, there are two women who have hispanic names and look the part, 15 women in total. 8 guys in total, none of whom are anything but white by appearance and name including the top two in the organization.

Would you care to share the average compensation by gender, Steve?

BTW, I doubt anything is being learned at SBC that is particularly applicable to anything other than other eco non-profits besides showing up for work on time, and you really have no idea what I'm doing.

-Greg

[Gregory]

"smart college grads are still knocking on my door, learning real workforce skills, and going out into the world and the work force as acolytes"- Frisch

Acolyte, what an interesting word for Steven Frisch to choose to describe his hired younglings:

a person assisting the celebrant in a religious service or procession.

synonyms: helper, attendant, minion, lackey, henchman, follower, disciple, supporter, votary (typ monk or nun), sidekick, groupie, hanger-on.

Yes, that probably describes the jobs to a T. Thanks for the info.

[Don Bessee]

Gregory @429- Snigger, giggle, snort, laugh out loud!

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: Gregory | 16 July 2015 at 04:19 PM

Yeah, as I said Greg, all you are good for is throwing stones. You are just a hack with a hard on for busting me, and you really drag this entire forum down. It's sad really. I think if you applied yourself you could be a net contributor to society.

By the way, 'acolyte' was just for you Greg :)

[Gregory]

Here's a fun rock that fits the hand just right. Said to be a current director at SBC, describes the job as "low pay for consulting work".

http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Sierra-Business-Council-Reviews-E437058.htm
Five salary reports.

Steve, you just continue to get the energy back that you fling into the fan.

[Gregory]

Taking the top two white guys out of the calculation at SBC, the rest of the firm is 71% female. How does their pay stack up against the other 29% consisting entirely of white guys? Steve?

No obvious Asians, no blacks, no east Asians, no obviously Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese names. No middle east names. No African names.

Just how does a California non-profit manage that sort of hiring pattern?

[Todd Juvinall]

Oops, not gonna retyp, sorry about the caps. Shoulda looked. THOSE WOMEN MAKE WHAT, 50% OF WHAT THE WHITE CRACKERS THAT LEAD THE ngo MAKE? looks LIKE IT. did THE ceo TAKE ANY OF THE GALS WITH HIM ON THE China TRIP PAIF FOR BY THE TAXPAYERS? aS THE BUDGET LEADER FOR THE bos FOR EIGHT YEARS i HAVE NEVER SEEN SUCH A MESS IN THE 990'S OF ANY ngo like thgis Truckee one. lOOKS LIKE THE FOX IS GUARDING THE "HENS".

[Don Bessee]

Someone notify DOJ and ACLU about the gross discrimination against people of color by the sbc bosses. Get out the ever ready protest signs and write a boycott editorial and initiate the socialist phone call tree! Contact our oppressed sisters at the sbc and start organizing for union representation! Quick, post it on peeps.;-)

[George Rebane]

StevenF 302pm - It seems that any young people coming to SBC for any kind of employment help or counseling would self-select into a cohort that is in line with your progressive ideology that is so apparent on the SBC website. Does that seem plausible, and do you think that might account for your assessment about the "hundreds and thousands of students a year going into business who have the values (you) described."?

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: George Rebane | 16 July 2015 at 05:13 PM

I love how you guys assume you are men of the world (all men I might note) and know what people outside your circle think, but fail to believe that others might have the same experience. I travel the entire state on business, at least 25,000 miles per year, to some of the tough places too I might add. I go to campuses and speak to classes, I use university research institutes. I am not saying I can speak for all young people, I would never presume too, but I can tell you, as YOU pointed out George, that for many or most young people today sustainability is embedded in their values.

[Gregory]

Back to something more positive, Russ' post quoting David Gelernter. I once was the 2nd choice (the other guy got hired) for director of engineering at a Portland area company endeavoring to build a desktop super computer circa 1991 around a hardware and software implementation of Linda, a parallel processing paradigm that Gelernter proposed. A beautiful alternative to parallel processing approaches of the time. C-Linda never quite took off, the Inmos Transputer (the microprocessor that was key to the desktop supercomputer) never equaled the Intel price/performance and the company crashed and burned without me, but the Linda concept is still core for a number of information technologies.

A true Renaissance man, Gelernter also managed to get a chunk of himself blown off by one of the Unabomber's creations sent in the mail, but he survived. The complete interview is worth reading.
http://conversationswithbillkristol.org/transcript/david-gelernter-transcript/#lite

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 16 July 2015 at 04:58 PM

Jeez Todd, it looks like you are having a well deserved heart attack. I hope I didn't contribute to your anger management problem :)

[Gregory]

"And of course Greg you are completely full of crap about this. First, we pay well."
-Frisch, 3:02

"Low pay for consulting work"- An SBC director, at glassdoor.com

Who is one to believe?

[Patricia Smith]

George, 2:49pm. That figure does not take into account the wars we fight to secure "our" oil in foreign countries. Ever notice how we don't invade countries (even when deplorable things are happening) that don't have natural resources we want?

BTW, there is an interesting book that we might enjoy. It's called the Selfie Vote, written by a youngish Republican about what the party needs to do to get the Millenials votes,

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: Gregory | 16 July 2015 at 05:42 PM

Well I would say people should certainly not believe YOU, or one 4 year old review on an obscure and seldom used web site.

[George Rebane]

StevenF 521pm - Indeed, we agree on that which was the subject of my commentary.

[fish]

Posted by: Joe Koyote | 16 July 2015 at 11:21 AM

The ever growing government is the direct result of the ever growing corporations. Don't you get that government is the shill for the corporations?

Well untill you find a way to get government to provide all the good progressive stuff without the bad corporate stuff it would seem that disappointment is in your future. You're kind of flirting with Ben Emery territory, where he and "90% of the electorate are in complete agreement" but still can't manage to roll back the corporate juggernaut even a whit.

Hey.....it's been a good year for you guys what with Obamacare and Gay marriage. Learn to appreciate the wins and not dwell on the losses.

[Gregory]

Steve, anyone not socialist at age 20 has no heart, if still socialist at 40 they have no brain, or at least no skills.

Patricia Smith, 5:54, it isn't about securing the fuels we need, we could be energy independent now if there was a will to drill and mine. It is about denying oil wealth to those who would destroy were they to control it. ISIS selling oil is not a good thing.

Among the first round of oil leases let by the Iraqi government after the regime change, I understand none went to US companies. Had our intent been stealing Iraqi oil, we'd have done better than that.The cheapest oil would have been had we let Iraq steal Kuwait without a pushback, as the Baathists invaded them to get oil to sell to us, among others.

[Gregory]

Frisch 6PM, yet another non-denial denial.

Average pay at SBC, male vs female. Are they even getting their 78 cents on the dollar?

[Todd Juvinall]

Obviously Frisch did not read the first sentence of my last post.

I would suggest the Frisch, a 50 something white male cracker cannot come close to understanding these young people he says he preaches too at university. I would think he would be posting those sermons on progressive lifestyles so we could all read them. My guess is though they don't exist. More white male progressive hegemony. Jeeze what a blowhard.

Post the salaries of the underpaid women you run and if appropriate we won't ask the EEOC to come in and make it right.

[Gregory]

Regarding the sustainability in the DNA in the young, that has something to do not only with the leftist tilt in higher education but also the inane leftism inherent in the new female ghettos of K-12 education and people like Nevada City's Linda Campbell, who, after underserving the underserved with 30 years of continuation school warehousing, then manages to get elected to school boards despite having no demonstrated talent for rational thought.

[fish]

Academia.....where ideas are tested....and minds forged in the arena of ideas!

http://reason.com/blog/2015/07/16/portland-state-university-will-shut-down

[Bill Tozer]

Missy Campbell writes some very uninformed and hysterica laden e-mails. Very emotional without any substance. Very very emotional and zero substance. It saddens me that her emotional and severe mental health issues continue to grow unabated. Don't we have a thing called Laura's Law in effect in these parts? Boy, that is one flipped out bird. Maw should not fly over the coocoo's nest. Perhaps a quiet withdraw from the Bored of Ed and put in a padded place where there are no scissors. It ain't pretty when Mount Campbell erupts and blows her top. In fact, it is sickening, yet not as sickening as the mere thought that she spent years alone with our children. We all owe the local younger generation a deep apology for not protecting them from the spewing Mt. C. What a c word.

[Walt]

Reading through the posts, it once again obvious that smoking dope damages the brain.
The LIB millennial already has one thing against them. Liberalism is in their DNA, and known as the " LIB Gene". ( yes,, look it up) Now add MJ, and drug experimentation of the 60's through the 80's to the mix and you can see the result. People who think they are owed something by the older generation and government, take loans they don't feel they need to pay back. If they can't, it's someone else's fault. No personal responsibility.
Then of course no amount of facts will deter them from believing in AGW.
In Ca. is smart thinking to flush all the fresh water out to sea to keep habitat for six fish. ( Yes, only six Delta Smelt are known to be left in the wild.)

It's time those re education camps get up and running. Put the LIB millennials in them.
Lesson 1.. There is no free lunch.

[Don Bessee]

frischy 521- I could say much the same on my legislative efforts in the region especially in liberal bastions. We mostly get the like minded and unsure wanting info. There is recent polling showing the effort of the Drug Free Community Grantees has paid off after long toil. The tweens across the country have become acolytes in regard to the negative view of weed. They don't want to dump IQ in a country with historic lack of worker participation in the job market.

[Bill Tozer]

Walt, the liberal re-education camps have been up and running since after the 68 Convention in Chicago. It's just more blatant now as the angry Black Man had been replaced by the Old Angry White Liberal Man in gobberment and so-called academia. I know. They have sent me to PC reeducation twice now. Don't mind it abit. Get paid for windshield time, a free lunch, and listening to some spiel about offensive behavior and what is offensive to just one may get ya canned. No problem with that as long as the checks keep on coming in.
Yep, that last reeducator asked us violators and various happy go lucky misfits if anyone could think of an inapproiate thing to say to a coworker or a member of the public at large. I was the only one to raise my hand. My example was telling the teacher that she had a nice rack, but her time in the suntan booth made her skin appear orangish. She was most professional and the class agreed I used a great example of what could be deemed by one or two as inappropriate non PC speech.
After graduating again from PC class, I approached the instructor and told her I have a confession to make. I told her I lied, which got her undivided attention. I told her I lied when I said she had a great rack and promptly walked out of the room with another PC certificate in hand. Something I always show a fine lassie on the first date.
All pays the same. I love working for companies that donate millions to Obama, lol. If that did not get me fired, nothing will. Just like working for the gobberment of being in academia.

[Douglas Keachie]

Maybe I missed something? The cold war goes on, and if China ever cracks the secret of tracking our 40 subs, we are toast. It is not mentioned in polite societies, but the mainland Chinese have just a tinge of Racism, and would view the USA as turf for expansion. This info is from a life long friend, of Chinese descent, who travels there regularly.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, we squabble over going solar and mass transit, and decrease ever further our chances for economic success as a whole nation. The balance sheets of the UberRich do not make for a healthy country. Elon Musk, Dean Kamen, Mark Cuban, are a few rays of light in the general darkness.

Do not be surprised if the Chinese land a woman on Mars in the next 20 years.

[George Rebane]

DouglasK 927am - Agree that the cold war continues, and yes, the Chinese very definitely are racists, they have been for millenia. But please give us a bit more detail on how continuing to raise taxes, increase regulations, and subsidize/mandate solar and mass transit (especially CA's bulltet train) is going to increase "our chances for economic success as a whole nation."?

[Gregory]

The fellow who truly has an 18th century worldview might be interested in this bit of news... the price of unleaded regular in California is now $1.05 a gallon higher than the average for the USA

http://energyalmanac.ca.gov/gasoline/

So much for AB32 not having an effect.

[Jon]

Come on Greg, you're smart enough to not make a conclusion like that so quickly, over a short-term (so far) price spike. I saw the spike as well, as everyone has, but all the other myriad logistics that unique to CA fuel distribution are likely factors as well.

[Gregory]

Jon, so it's Bush's fault that gas is over a dollar a gallon higher in California? Or is it the Koch's?

[Jon]

Yeah its Bush's fault. Thats it Greg. As for the Koch's- very possible there is some small factor there. But lets stop the silliness. I'd like to see a bit of a trend, over at least several months and several seasons. Funny to see your very scientific mind quick to make definitive conclusions about short term price spikes.

[Jon]

Hey Todd, I'm always looking for common ground. I'd bet we have it in our feelings and desires directed toward the scum who beat up Mary Grace Tassone.

[Gregory]

This is politics, not science, Jon. Raise taxes on fuel, make it harder to produce and refine, the price will go up. It's now over a buck higher than the average for the nation and a whole lot more expensive than in other states with production capacity like Oklahoma and Texas. California used to be a major refiner but the regulatory atmosphere has changed that.

Sacramento could have put a brake on the prices climbing by allowing fuel made to out of state specifications to be sold in order to take up the slack, but didn't.

[Jon]

Yes, clearly CA does not have the refining capacity, and it has unique challenges in fuel distribution. Those are the type of things I was referring to, and those are not new things. But we cannot conclude the price differential is caused by AB32. The movement and priorities away from the fossil fuels model is more than simple politics, its what the majority of Californians desire, its how we are taking the lead around the world in many ways. There are important things that CA people care about, and not just the price of gas which is obviously higher relative to Texas or Georgia, just god awful places to reside for many people.

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: Gregory | 17 July 2015 at 12:48 PM

Total nonsense by Greg, almost every industry analyst agree the current price spike has everything to do with supply constraints due to problems at California refineries and nothing to do with AB 32. If it had to do with the Renewable Fuel Standard why would the price go up now? The RFS has been in place since January......

Now if you would like to get support for pipeline capacity between Texas and California to compete with California refiners I would be 100% with you--we should have done that years ago.

[Gregory]

Where in AB32 is there anything but obstacles to developing petroleum supplies or refinery capacity, Stevie? The spike may be temporary but there is no way in hell fuel at the pump is ever going to meet the average for the country, by design.