« Bought and Paid for Politics – Our Fault | Main | Muslims in Government (updated 25sep15) »

23 September 2015

Comments

Walt

LOL! Moonbat Brown greeted our soon to be overlord.( "O" was even late to meet the Pope) China is looking to get some of it's loan back, in the form of Real Estate.( Came to look over his investment) Yes, the U.S. can start with Seattle. It's pretty much Communist, so they should feel right at home under Chinese rule. Frisco will be next on the payment schedule.

Jon

Exactly Walt. Boy, you are really nailing it with your rational commentary today.

Bill  Tozer

Walt, most all of Washington State would agree with you, except those liberals living along the I-5 corridor. Those people like to dwell in the pricey neighborhoods. Birds of a feather and all that.
So, Walt, you just could not resist telling us that O was late for his Papal visit. Don't you know that religious discussions is a big big taboo to the far left radical extremists who are out of touch with the ordinary people, but do not think so? No religion taking allowed, unless it is a good religion like Islam, a political ideal. Something to do with separation of Church and State. Just in case you were unawares about taboos, big guy.

http://patriotpost.us/posts/37800

http://patriotpost.us/cartoons/22462

Jon

Hey anti-regulation fans who trust Corporations to do the right thing in a beautiful land of minimal regulations- whats your take on the VW scandal?
Let me guess...they had to cheat because of unreasonably tough regulations on NOx emissions? Are the effects of NOx from diesel emissions overblown?

Todd Juvinall

Well let's see. Hmmm. You libs support Obama/Kerry letting Iran self inspect on nuclear weapons. So, who gives a shit?

Jon

What a class act you are, Todd. Ignore the question and strike out with profanity because you don't like the true answer. So we duly note your view of the VW scandal, the impact on the environment, and its half million angry American victims.

Jon

Speaking of corporations doing really good things for society, what is your take on the recent events at Turing Pharma, where it was legal- so they raised a life saving drug taken by people by 5500% overnight? No problem, right? The CEO caught just took a little flak on that one.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/business/big-price-increase-for-an-old-drug-will-be-rolled-back-turing-chief-says.html

George Rebane

VWs were my first cars - we owned three beetles and one micro-bus - and they have a warm place in my heart. But VW became corporatist as it grew and became a toady of the governments under which it manufactured and sold its products. What they did with their diesel control software is unforgivable, and the PEOPLE involved should pay a hefty price. Investors should also evaluate such corporations that require active government participation/support for them to survive in the marketplace.

Bill  Tozer

Wel, my 64 bug is exempt from smog, so I don't give a shit either. Plus, look at all the money I save on smog certificates through the years. Gotta watch one's pennies during these hard economic times as evidenced by the growing number of homeless Obama Camps springing up. Heard there are 75 people on food stamps for every job this current Administration has created. It's all Hoover's fault I reckon.

Yo Walt:
https://www.facebook.com/lastamericapatriots/photos/a.235465606603669.1073741827.235086849974878/556595671157326/?type=3

Jon

Agree 100% George. My first vehicle was a VW Superbeetle with the clutchless semi-automatic shifter.

Fact remains that the pollution impact from this deception on human lungs is beyond comprehension, especially on the European continent where diesel reigns.
The brand is forever scarred, no matter what steps they take now. This will drag on for decades.

Todd Juvinall

So "jon" how is it you support Iran self inspecting?

fish

Hey anti-regulation fans who trust Corporations to do the right thing in a beautiful land of minimal regulations- whats your take on the VW scandal?

They got caught.


As it turns out it was these guys!

The independent body International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT) conducted a study in 2014 showing that diesel automobile exhaust, under "real-world" driving conditions, tends to contain regulated pollutants above the maximum allowable levels set by European emission standards, as well as similar U.S. regulations.[5] Some tested models showed a particularly large discrepancy, and the ICCT, in cooperation with West Virginia University conducted additional tests to verify their findings. The published results confirmed the ICCT's findings.[6] The findings were also directly presented to the the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the California Air Resources Board (CARB) in May 2014.[7]

Remember jon.....this wasn't a question of regulation vs. non regulation.....this occurred with all the regulations in place. Initially I thought it had to be CARB.....I figured that EPA was probably still writing up their "mission statement"....or spinning their mine clean up disaster!

Let me guess...they had to cheat because of unreasonably tough regulations on NOx emissions? Are the effects of NOx from diesel emissions overblown?

IIRC the newest VWs use a heated system that was supposed to dissociate NOx without needing Urea addition. But no.....they too need the exhaust treatment!

Starting with the 2009 model year, Volkswagen Group began migrating its light-duty passenger vehicle TDI diesel engines to a common-rail fuel injection system. This type of injection system allows for higher-precision fuel delivery through the use of electronically controlled fuel injectors and higher injection pressure, theoretically leading to better fuel atomization, better air/fuel ratio control, and by extension, better control of emissions.[1][2]

2010 VW Golf TDI Clean Diesel on display at a U.S. auto show.
With the addition of a diesel particulate filter to capture soot, and on some vehicle models, a urea-based exhaust aftertreatment system, the engines were touted by Volkswagen as being as clean as or cleaner than U.S. and Californian requirements, while providing good performance and drivability.[3][4]


Sounds like a good time to look into buying a new VW!

Jon

go for it fish. After they do their recall and make the changeout, the diesels will run horribly, like they did in the 80s with smoke and problems in the winter. But you'll be unique.

Jon

hey Todd, no I don't support self inspection. Neither would anyone in our Administration. That's why its not in the deal.

MOVE-ON. the Iran deal is done.

Gregory

Let's see, VW, violating the spirit but maybe not the letter of the law, spoofed the Federal tests and delivered a better driving car to their customers. That has stopped, you can't buy a diesel from a VW dealer until they get Fed approved software in place. If you want one, I'd suggest the used market.

I'd like to see a before and after comparison of all measured quantities, including things like acceleration and mileage. If what they delivered really does have significant performance advantages, expect a bang up black market for downloads with software that can be switched on and off by owners before they take their vehicle in for an inspection.

Todd Juvinall

"jon" you are a ignorant loon. Too bad.

Steven Frisch

Posted by: fish | 23 September 2015 at 02:24 PM


Let's give credit where credit is due, VW was caught by CARB...

http://www.vcstar.com/opinion/columnists/timm-herdt/timm-herdt-how-the-california-air-resources-board-caught-volkswagen_01503757

"How was the deceit uncovered?

Hebert writes that California regulators had noted unexpectedly high in-use emissions from light-duty diesel vehicles and initiated discussions about that with their European counterparts. They were engaged in their own testing last year when the International Council and the University of West Virginia released their own findings that were “consistent and complementary” to the Air Board’s research.

Discussions with Volkswagen officials were initiated, leading to a voluntary recall last December that the company claimed fixed the problem. The Air Board’s testing to confirm that assertion found the recall had resulted in some improvements, but that NOx emissions were still elevated.

Technical meetings with VW officials were conducted over the summer until the company came clean about its defeat devices on Sept. 3"

Jon

Nice try Todd. You can't answer my inquire on VW, so its time to go for the personal attack and go off on the Iran deal.. good one. Kesti is so spot on about you.

fish

Posted by: Steven Frisch | 23 September 2015 at 03:14 PM

"Initially I thought it had to be CARB.....I figured that EPA was probably still writing up their "mission statement"....or spinning their mine clean up disaster!"

Tip of the Cap to CARB then!

Todd Juvinall

" jon" move along now. You are more irrelevant with each post. Jeeze you sure a dumb.

fish

Posted by: Jon | 23 September 2015 at 02:33 PM


Please....your going to see a thriving aftermarket in performance chips and tuning kits.

You should see what is available for the diesel truck aftermarket...you would wet yourself!

Jon

"VW, violating the spirit but maybe not the letter of the law" Gregory

Sure Gregory..it was the spirit! Yup, that's why the CEO resigned and they have already admitted wrongdoing. And every freaking prosecutorial body in the US and Europe is coming in like a tsunami on the company. The Spirit was broken! LOL.

"That has stopped, you can't buy a diesel from a VW dealer until they get Fed approved software in place. If you want one, I'd suggest the used market."

why in the hell would anyone want to get near a VW diesel after the news of the past few days? OMG, are you alright?

Todd Juvinall

Wasn't that car "Hitlers" invention? I bet Frisch drives a Jetta.

George Rebane

fish 328pm - re the "diesel truck aftermarket", pray where may I go to wet myself? (My lovey truck is a GMC 2500 Duramax diesel.)

fish

Posted by: Jon | 23 September 2015 at 03:28 PM

OMG


Let us know when you exit the fetal position.....we can talk again then.

Bill  Tozer

Gregory is on to something. Instead of doing what most people do, just buy aftermarket software. Normally people reattach the vacuum lines and adjust the idle down before the test. It may run like crap, especially after the smog guy make a few more adjustments, but you drive out of the place with smog certificate in hand. Then straight to the mechanic who fixes what the smog guy did. Or do it yourself. Smog guys will tell you exactly what they did and to what degree if asked. Your sweet for another two years...or just the aftermarket software which is the easiest way. Get it from Germany. Think Global, Act Local.

40 times the gross pollutants coming from a car is peanuts compared to the 50-100 times of gross foul hideous pollinates coming out of Jon's posts. Software won't help Jon or any lib for that matter.

fish

Posted by: George Rebane | 23 September 2015 at 03:32 PM

Start here.....

http://www.trucktrend.com/diesel-power-magazine/

fish

Posted by: George Rebane | 23 September 2015 at 03:32 PM

Check your typepad spam folder.....my post with link was just eaten!

Jon

good one Tozer. Congrats to you and your friend, firmly in the minority position on the VW scandal.

1 million tonnes of pollutants per day in Europe because of the fraud.

Todd Juvinall

Bill Tozer | 23 September 2015 at 03:35 PM

Yep, and of course he never answers any questions from the posters here. It also appears he is ignorant on the "side deals" the IAEA made with Iran about self inspecting. Iran with a nuke, "jon" seems to be OK with that. Liberals do have a mental disorder.

Todd Juvinall

My son has a chevy diesel and he has added a few aftermarket items. I think it could pull 10 elephants now. LOL!

fish

Well maybe not quite such an enthusiastic hat tip after all!

"Hebert writes that California regulators had noted unexpectedly high in-use emissions from light-duty diesel vehicles and initiated discussions about that with their European counterparts. They were engaged in their own testing last year when the International Council and the University of West Virginia released their own findings that were “consistent and complementary” to the Air Board’s research."

Looks like CARB turned in someone else's homework.......

Jon

That's right Todd, I am OK with the Iran deal. Really good with it. So are most Americans. Another crowning accomplishment of an African American President. (but is he a Muslim??? oooh). You guys continue to linger here on the fringes of American opinion, and that's just fine with me.

Todd Juvinall

That is OK "jon". We understand our mental illness.

Todd Juvinall

Oops, your mental illness. LOL!

fish

Posted by: Jon | 23 September 2015 at 03:51 PM

You guys continue to linger here on the fringes of American opinion, and that's just fine with me.

Me too!

Mainstream America these days is populated largely with an invasive species of unthinking slack jawed conformists.

But hey.....on you it looks good!

/Dangerfield

Todd Juvinall

Oh, also, 82% of the American people were opposed to the Iran deal. It appears you don't read well or your comprehensive abilities are severely lacking there "jon" boy.

Gregory

"40 times the gross pollutants coming from a car ..."

That is patently false. The reports are one particular pollutant is up by a factor of 40 in one phase of the test. We don't know what happens to all categories in actual use, or in the static testing.

I'm going to make a wild guess that CO2 (if we call it a pollutant, which it is not) is unchanged in cruise and idle because it's sold to customers based of mileage, and the best mileage (all else being reasonably equal) will be when it emits the most CO2 per gallon burned.

I'd bet Frisch's 6 figure salary as CEO of a wretchedly misnamed 501c3 rentseeking corporation that the head of VW who fell on his sword has a nice golden parachute for his willingness to be the one to fall on his sword for not being better at fudging the software.

Estimate the particulates emitted by all the VW diesels sold vs the particulates from the Valley Fire... anyone?

Here's how Hot Air put it:
"The way most of the regulations are written seems to indicate that the vehicle must have a functional system of this type which is accurately monitoring system performance and meets the maximum emissions requirements at the time of testing. Obviously the VW vehicles in question were doing just that. But cars today have all sorts of bells and whistles which drivers can use to customize their driving experience. They can switch from “performance” mode to “economy” mode with the push of a button. Things like that obviously affect the vehicle’s emissions. Other such options are available. And when you think about it, the “disable device” was really just putting the car into a different mode of operation which includes heavy emissions control. When it was disconnected and ready to head back out on the road it was switching back to a different mode with a bit more performance. None of that changes the fact that the emissions were within the required limits at the time of testing.

Of course that’s a horribly transparent dodge in terms of legal tactics, but the law is generally held to and enforced based on how it is written. Volkswagen was obviously gaming the system here but if it’s going to come down to 18 billion in fines I can’t help but wonder if they won’t make a run at a defense like that in court."

You can bet the EPA is or has new wording of the regs to make it ironclad.

Don Bessee

Well somebody had their fiber, sandbox filled up fast. So now the ayatollah says no deal unless sanctions are totally removed not just lifting sequentially with compliance by iran. Is anyone surprised they are already going all slippery on their obligations like self inspecting and delivering soil samples to the IAEA?

George Rebane

fish 337pm - Thank you Mr fish, the spam sucker had actually devoured two valid comments.

Todd Juvinall

We all knew the "Supreme Commander" of Iran would quit. Hell, Obama bent over and took it from them and they still screwed him. Our dopey Senate even gave up the right to enforce the "Treaty" clause for all this. I bet they already have a nuke and a delivery system (thanks to North Korea) and just want the sanctions lifted so they will have food in their fallout shelters.

fish

Comment of the day from reason.com

R C Dean|9.23.15 @ 1:49PM|#

Kill a bunch of proles? Pay a $900mm fine and go on your way. Oh, and that recent DOJ memo swearing to go after corporate officers and directors - don't you worry about that.

Cheat on a regulatory test? We'll bankrupt your ass, even though there's really no reason to believe a single person was harmed.

I guess the feds still have a warm place in their hearts for GM.

Jon

Gregory, really good stuff there. Are you pining for a defense attorney role with VW? You might even have time to complete a law degree and get hired on, in the decades this case will take to completely resolve itself.

Bill  Tozer

Not surprised that Jon says 82% of the people think this Iran No Nukes No Way deal is a grand idea. Jon, you are one funny man, or funny man or woman. Very funny Jon with your practical jokes. Yep, the overwhelming majority of American like this deal.

A nuke in the hands of the Iranians is no laughing matter. Caution: this graphic picture shows what happens to an American city when it is wiped out. Not for the faint of heart.

https://www.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.217983685002343.55586.217926015008110/733527586781281/?type=3&theater

So, the deal is a winner!!!. Oh Jon, you are a funny dude

https://www.facebook.com/PatriotPost/photos/pb.51560645913.-2207520000.1443051568./10152842759605914/?type=3&theater.

Steven Frisch

Posted by: Gregory | 23 September 2015 at 04:01 PM

That's funny, I never mentioned anything about CO2, made no representation of the rationale behind CARB's investigation, and I said nothing about testing methodology.

No where is there any rationale for comparing VW vehicle emissions to the Valley Fire [or the Butte Fire which I would have picked because its in the Sierra] nor do I see the relevance. [Not to mention the fact that I am a champion of forest thinning to rescue the risk of wildfire.]

Yet Greg still seems to get in a dig about my organization and my salary---of course he is functionally unemployable because he is such a raging ass and he can't get along with anyone--even though that has no relevance to the discussion either.

But that's OK Greg--we know who you are.

Don Bessee

Speaking of treaties the Chinese state media is reporting that 0 will sign a cybersecurity pact that was designed by Beijing. Sure why not, they already have all the background files of everyone with a security clearance and 6 million fingerprint sets of same. State media says this pact confirms that china had nothing to do with hack in spite of all evidence and official statements to the contrary. If you cant stand up to them now what is going to happen when they take an island from say Japan? Let me guess what the 'jon' will say, that the Chinese have all the background checks on our senior security holders just means they will get to know us better and come to understand our good intentions as long as we don't sabre rattle or accuse them of what we know they are doing across the world.

Gregory

I certainly don't get along with raging assholes like Stephen Frisch; with no evidence besides his bias, he claims I'm not currently working in the corporate world because he can't get along with me. Que lastima! Yet another libel from Stephen. Enough to be actionable? That is a question.

I brought up CO2 because people like you call it a pollutant, Steve, and it's likely not a problem with the VW. I brought up the particulates of one of the largest fires ever in California to get a sense of proportion, which you seem to lose when it suits you. My guess is that the particulates of even that one fire dwarf the incremental particulates of the fudged VW over the VW the EPA thought was being sold but until more information is made public it's anyone's guess.

Jon

The fear and paranoia exploding from the tortured souls of Bessee and Tozer have reached unimaginable new levels....blood pressure check please!

Jon

Todd and Tozer, I guess the strategy is just to keep repeating the bogus 82% figure enough and hope there are enough dumb crackers out there who will believe it? You might want to check your Daily Caller sources before posting falsehoods. 82% of Repubs disapprove of the deal...I can believe that.

The American public support the Iran Deal, but are skeptical of its ultimate success. All logical, rational and expected results. They don't particularly care that BeBe is angry.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/poll-2-to-1-support-for-nuclear-deal-with-iran/2015/03/30/9a5a5ac8-d720-11e4-ba28-f2a685dc7f89_story.html

Jon

Gregory,
VW created 1 MILLION Tonnes of pollution PER DAY, over several years in Europe alone. Above and beyond what the public expected. You tell me us that compares to a CA wildfire such as Valley or Butte. And whats the point here? To excuse VW?

Todd Juvinall

"jon" you are a troll and not smart. Give it up. Jeeze what a ignoramus.

CO2 is a "pollutant" not because thje Congress said it is or isn't. The courts did. So once again they screwed over thew American people. Next thing we know the EPA will tell everyone to remove every green plant from the planet as it spews that evil CO2.

Lastly, Mt Pinatbo put out almost as much particulates as "jon" the troll and Frisch the "huge" do while yapping.

Todd Juvinall

Here is how much the atmosphere weighs for all those "deniers" of the truth that AGW is a hoax.

"The total mass of Earth’s atmosphere is about 5.5 quadrillion tons, or roughly one millionth of Earth’s mass"

So "jon" and Flisch, what is that percentage into the weight?

Here is the link.

http://blogs.britannica.com/2012/01/how-much-does-earth-atmosphere-weigh/

Don Bessee

Fear, paranoia, no just an understanding of facts a with historical perspective. Not some tired old deflections of an apologist for incompetence in foreign policy such as the 'jon' offers. But what should we expect from an alyinsky trained organizer, Chicago ward boss toy? The very same negotiating style that has Rahm Emanuel genuflecting before the teachers union in a bankrupt Chicago. Another executive agreement without congressional oversight instead of a formal treaty?

Jon

Todd, we've always said that you guys should relocate to a State where the pollution laws are more lax. Then you can breath all the NOx you want. Diesel heaven.

Gregory

Jon, source? Which pollutants, real and imaginary?

Bill  Tozer

Jon @5:17pm. Oh Jon, you did a no-no. You can't say cracker. Your side forbids it's use, even with Chicken Noodle Soup. Cracker is racist. You are not allowed to say Cracker nor Blackboard.
I can say it cause I an Injun and Irish. We have suffered under White Liberal Supremists as have our brothers from Black Lives Matter. I can say it because I want to and do not kiss gobberment' half white half Arab's ass. My side can say cracker, your side censors those kind of hurtful thoughts.
I do not take by marching orders from Libholes, honkie. You are not allowed to say cracker, white bread. You must follow your bullet points and not stray from the 80 year old script. Oops, make than Betnie's 74 year old script. No more saying cracker. You belong to the better party. Bullet points? Be forewarned, you cannot say bullet points. Talking points, yes. Bullet points, no. That term makes some people feel sad, thus is not to be tolerated. I can say it, but the better party can't.
These are the rules your side set down, but who cares what somebody who is stuck with Hillary thinks? Not I. And no, I won't say "we" like the FatFuk does when he is alone typing away at night with those fat food claw fingers of his. I will say again, "Frankly my dear, i don't give a damn." ROTFLMAO, heeheeeheheeheeeheeehhee, Lol. Life had never been better, ROTFLMAO, heeheeeheheeheeeheeehhee hee, LOL.

Oh Jon, next time sign in with your full name. Thanks. ROTFLOL hee hee hee hee hee. LOL. Life's never been better. Heehehehehehehehehee. Let's get jolly.

Todd Juvinall

I see the "jon" can't even do basic math. What a troll.

George Rebane

Administrivia - Folks, I'm getting more than a little bored and bothered with the number of exchanges that involve nothing but Naked Ad Hominems (NAHs). They fill my email inboxes and extend the time that I must take in reading readers' comments. Since polite requests have not worked, I will henceforth do my best just to cull all NAHs. To qualify as an NAH, a comment must possess precious little in its addition to the discussion of topics at hand. Unfortunately for some, I will be the final judge of what is a NAH. In favor of all mudball chuckers, my record for leniency here is well established.

Steven Frisch

"Que lastima! Yet another libel from Stephen. Enough to be actionable? That is a question."

I have an idea: take action so I can own your friggin' home.

I would love to have a retreat from the occasional high elevations snow.

If you are not going to sue me you perhaps we should stop goading each other and actually comment on the ISSUES, which is what I did.

Steven Frisch

George, you are free to eliminate my post but if you do please eliminate Greg's threat of litigation.

George Rebane

StevenF 656pm - You both have threatened suit on these pages. I am reminded of the recommendation, 'Defecate or relinquish the receptacle!' Such threats and counter-threats are best kept in email exchanges between the parties involved, and not in public forums like the comment streams of RR.

Jon

George, thank you. Good rules. The irrelevant silliness of the 5:55 and 6:05 stand as good examples.

Should we not discuss the scandal at VW any further? I think a scandal that can wipe out one of the world's leading companies is a fair topic.

George Rebane

Jon 706pm - I'm curious as to from where you drew the VW scandal inference.

Steven Frisch

George, my original post contained no ad hominem. I merely cited a source.

If you want to control ad hominem I suggest you look to the four primary initiators; Greg, Todd, Walt and Don.

Don Bessee

Here we are again with the 'jon' as front man failing to engage the realities of geo politics. Then we again get the socialist rant we are used to from he whos name we will not utter repeated by the minions. I'm gonna call your lawyer, blah blah blah, where have we heard those hackneyed refrains ad nauseaum?

Steven Frisch

"I'm gonna call your lawyer, blah blah blah, where have we heard those hackneyed refrains ad nauseaum?"


I think we just heard it from.....Greg,

Bill  Tozer

Ok, no more Jeffried imitations.

Todd Juvinall

I guess the Frisch forgets about all his ad hominems. Greg knows.

Gregory

I made no claim as to what sort of action I might take; it was Frisch's imagination that led him to one that would take a lawyer on my part, and given his words in response, perhaps I will follow through with something to try to get Frisch to stop making false and defamatory statements about me.

Steve, I'd threaten to take your house but I suspect you rent.

"If you are not going to sue me you perhaps we should stop goading each other and actually comment on the ISSUES, which is what I did."

It's what I did, too, and I did it without making stuff up. Your feelings got hurt because I mentioned you, made reference to your salary level (public info) and your employer. That's fair game unless I make stuff up. So what was false?
[cue the Final Jeopardy theme]

In the meantime, Michael Mann actually wrote an Other Voices in The Union today and I'm reworking an Other Voices on the subject that has already been accepted to take advantage.


Gregory

"...and not in public forums like the comment streams of RR." -GR

George, as long as you countenance Frisch's libels on RR, I suggest RR remains an appropriate public forum to discuss them.

Jon

Lets just stop the phony litigation threats and get back to the subject matter and pointed commentary. Having to sit through a constant barrage of phony libel threat has gotten way beyond old, way beyond ridiculous. Its a GD joke. No one is suing anyone here and you know it.

Don Bessee

WOW the 'jon' just bitch slapped scoopy!

Jon

George 7:06- the VW inference? I raised the subject of the VW corporate crimes and deceptions, and the social and environmental impacts of such earlier today. Somehow we got into CO2 and Global Warming. A great topic, wrong thread.

Ben Emery

"It is important to bear in mind that the Republicans have long abandoned the pretense of functioning as a normal parliamentary party. Rather, they have become a “radical insurgency” that scarcely seeks to participate in normal parliamentary politics, as observed by the respected conservative political commentator Norman Ornstein of the right-wing American Enterprise Institute. Since Ronald Reagan, the leadership has plunged so far into the pockets of the very rich and the corporate sector that they can attract votes only by mobilizing sectors of the population that have not previously been an organized political force, among them extremist evangelical Christians, now probably the majority of Republican voters; remnants of the former slave-holding States; nativists who are terrified that “they” are taking our white Christian Anglo-Saxon country away from us; and others who turn the Republican primaries into spectacles remote from the mainstream of modern society—though not the mainstream of the most powerful country in world history." - Noam Chomsky

Ben Emery

oops that wasn't credited correctly.

http://www.salon.com/2015/09/23/noam_chomsky_right_wing_extremism_from_trump_may_be_comic_relief_but_its_not_that_different_from_the_mainstream/

Jon

Thank you Ben. On that note, just look at the gnarled mugs of those Congressional Republicans as the Pope reminds them this morning of the time tested, Christian teachings of compassion and peace, in matters of immigration, the environment and economic inequality, and the evil of trickle down philosophy.

Bill  Tozer

Jon @ 11pm.
Just a minor point of clarification. Your post last night is in The Sanbox. Sure, the thread might have veered off the VW thang, but it is in the Sandbox were many topics of interest are introduced at any time by anyone for any reason. The Sandbox serves to keep the non-post stuff out of, say, a Muslim as President or AWG or Common Core or whatever the topic of Dr. Rebane's posts. Thus, there is plenty of off thread stuff, but not off post as evidenced the two recent comments of Brother Ben. The thread at hand usually is quickly supplanted by another topic that is of someone's immediate interest. The Sandbox is a good place to interject a topic which has no other place to put it. And it is where the sand kicking is relegated to. Thus, I disagree in principle with your characterization of "great topic, wrong thread" in regards to the Sandbox. Seems you really want to discuss more of this VW thang. That news item really got your dander up, did it not?

This is what is on my mind this morning, fit for the free wheeling Sandbox. More visual aids. A bit of silliness, eh?

https://www.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.217983685002343.55586.217926015008110/733720796761960/?type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.217983685002343.55586.217926015008110/733702970097076/?type=3&theater

George Rebane

Jon 1100pm - Mr Tozer's 742am is spot on. To keep the comment stream under RR's topical posts on focus, the sandbox is the repository for all other reader discussions and observations. Your taking on the VW scandal is a worthy thread.

George Boardman

It's not enough that Ann Coulter, the right's favorite pin-up girl, insulted Jews, now she's going after Catholics.

With friends like Coulter, conservatives don't need any enemies.

Jon

George, since we have a recent AGW-Global Warming thread- is that not the appropriate place for CO2 discussions? The ongoing and endless CO2 topic has nothing to do with VW and regulations surrounding NOx emissions. Unless you put NOx and CO2 in the same category of unreasonable regulations.

Jon

Mr. Boardman, I find Coulter's recent stances baffling at best. The infighting with her, O'Reilly, Fox and Trump these days is amusing. Not sure whats going onk, except I guess people have figured out if they start attacking their like minded breatheren, there is big money to be made. All these players are masters at generating views and dollars through controversy.

Steven Frisch

Really, we don't know what someones issue is when the simultaneously appear to hate Jews, Catholics, Muslims, immigrants, brown people, and anyone different than they are?

If it walks like the KKK and talks like the KKK it might be the KKK.

Ann Coulter is beginning to resemble Fairuza Balk in American History X.

Todd Juvinall

Ann Coulter is unfiltered. Some things she says I agree with some not so much. But one thing is clear, you PC fools go berserk when she talks. I love it!

Jon

No, we love it when the chickens on the far right come home to roost- like we see now with Trump and Coulter, both doing their utmost to stain and damage the GOP brand. Its a good thing for our democracy that those 2 very bad people are doing such damage.

Todd Juvinall

Bernie and Hillary along with that clown from Rhode Island are driving the democrats farther to the left and into the hands of Stalinistas. I love it!

Jon

Ann Coulter should be: Election 2016 Lead Political Analyst, Fox News!
A win-win situation. Fox would get great ratings with lots of divorced, lonely, frustrated old white men tuning in to fantasize about her. She would say lots of wacked out, destructive stuff to further stain the brand prior to the General.
Love it.

George Rebane

Jon 942am - not sure I understand your question. Perhaps we don't share a common terminology. The taxonomy here goes as follows - the blog is divided into dated and authored commentaries. Each such commentary has an appended COMMENT STREAM, and each such stream may further consist of separate COMMENT THREADS, each thread addressing a different facet of the topical commentary or a different topic altogether in a sandbox.

This is a sandbox, so anyone is welcome to start a new thread or respond to an existing one. However, it does defeat the purpose of a topical commentary if readers post their comments about the topic in a nearby sandbox. But I do realize that different threads may branch out sufficiently to intertwine, and then even take off in a new direction. Such types of divergent incests are best conducted in RR's sandboxes instead of under topical commentary posts.

Bill  Tozer

One thing about Trump you lefties should praise is he has taken on Fox News, the dreaded nemesis to the Left. "Why can't Fox be more like CNN, MSMBC, ABC, NBC?", the progressives have wailed aloud for years. Even our current President started in early on Fox in 2009 and returns to that well to draw more water from time to time. I am surprised that Fox was not held 100% responsible AND accountable for that guy who plugged Gabby in her melon.
Now Trump comes along and has fueled the Boycott Fox movement. He has done what no Libby could do, what no lawmaker has achieved, with or without the Fairness Doctrine. I wish I was a fly on the wall when The Donald picked up the phone and called Roger A. Heard Roger was incensed after Trump told him to eat caca and die.

So, the Trump dude has fulfilled the libbie wet dream (almost) and as a direct result of the Donald telling it like is, Fox's ratings have finally after all these years begin to show some kinks in the amour. But, I suppose that is not good enough for the far left radical extremists cause Fox has not been taken off the air....yet.
Point is: with The Donald around, there are no scared cows, no place to hide. Not bad for a man that isn't even a true believer nor conservative. An equal opportunity offender. My kind of guy.

As far as Ann Couter, it does seem way out of character for her. I will only say that she would look better if she put alittle more meat on her bones. Not enough to have to wear a designer pants suit to hide the belly and buttocks, but somewhere in between.

Finally, I have made my decision. I am voting for O'Malley. Sounds Irish enough to me. So, I will vote for him solely because he has Irish blood a'flowing in his blue veiners. That is all I need know and it saves time reading up on his first name or what he spouts. If you don't vote for Whatzhisname O'Malley, then you hate the drunken Irish. Lizzy is from a Native American pussy tribe so she will not get my support.
Ah, I love the Sandbox.

Walt

Go away for 24 hours, and this litter box is all smelled up. ( someone get the Febreeze)
Damn you guys have been busy.
We went and got us a new pup to train. ( Thanks Dr.R for the tips for training the first one. She is now a fully home trained service dog, now with all the certificates that go with the title.)
We had this one shipped in from back East. ( what was the wife thinking??)
Maybe tracking pooch is the way to go this time. Besides. I need the exercise.

Now back to the regular poo flinging. ( I have plenty to spare now)

fish

Lizzy is from a Native American pussy tribe so she will not get my support.

Hmmmm....pussy tribe......where's their casino?

fish

Speaking of auto emissions.....


http://news.yahoo.com/supersonic-bloodhound-car-aiming-land-speed-record-unveiled-173139280.html

Walt

Fish. Let me know when you find it..Uhhh,,,, "business" trip? ( I'll BBQ up some goods for the road)

Jon

Walt, I take it you might have a problem with this?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/for-1st-time-new-york-city-schools-close-for-muslim-holiday/2015/09/24/d4bbe72a-62eb-11e5-8475-781cc9851652_story.html

Walt

Once again Lyawotha says "she ain't running"(for Pres. that is).
So the LIBS are stuck with the three stooges. ( Curly has yet to make it official)

And "jon" can't even find the right thread.

Bill  Tozer

Oh boy Walt, a new puppie. I just got one as well, but at 12 weeks old, she is pushing at least 55 lbs already. Gonna be a big one. At least pups sleep most of the day to give us time to save the trash from the dog, as well as shoes and the kitty. She loves goats, though. How odd. She even likes me. Not very spiritually developed as she eats what the cat drags in. :).

Yo Walt, come on and throw Jon a bone, will ya. That poor guy is running around looking for anybody (anybody from the less evolved Bad Party) to say we hate Muslims and love gross polluters (gross polluters beside Mr. Jon's posts). Come on, get all contorted and give him a few crumbs. Pretend your a quite uncontrollably upset. Tell him that celebrating some Muslim Holiday is downright un-American.
You don't have to believe it, just tell him anything he wants to hear to appease his tormented soul. Come on, toss him a pacifier. I am tired of playing the good cop in the good cop-bad cop routine. Why do I have to do all the heavy lifting. Jon is like a kid on Christmas Eve along with Paul & Brother Ben waiting in eager anticipation for one of our bigots here to strike on the race baiting bait. Come on, Walt, at least nibble at the cheese, will ya. Have mercy on them.

Gregory

Here's a big kitty krunchy for the sandbox, Steven Frisch in another mudpit, regarding the AP styleguide update that deletes "denier" from climate stories:

stevefrisch says:
September 24, 2015 at 9:01 am

I have been reflecting on the new AP standards since they were announce and have come to the conclusion, like the un-named initial comment, that they are entirely too kind.

Before I get to why the standards are too kind, I think it is unlikely that very many journalists are going to replace the one word ‘denier’ with the phrase ‘those who reject mainstream climate science.’ It is too long, unwieldy and profligate in its use of words for journalists to replace one word, whether it be ‘skeptic’ or ‘denier.’

But the larger problem is that they seem to be changing the standard because climate deniers are offended by the implied reference to holocaust denial.

The word ‘denier’ did not come into common usage to describe a mindset as a descriptor of those who deny the existence of the holocaust, it was used by Sigmund Freud to describe a psychological condition and defense mechanism commonly used by drug addicts [which Freud knew a thing or two about] and terminal cancer patients who refuse treatment to avoid acknowledging the depth of their addiction or the terminal nature of their illness.

As used by Freud, and as used by journalists, the word ‘denier’ means nothing more than a person who refuses to accept the existence, truth, or validity of something. It is a neutral term. The word itself does not establish whether the thing being denied actually exists, it identifies the subject as denying its existence.

What those who do not believe climate change exists, or that portions of the problem are human caused, are really rejecting, is that almost every time in human history the word ‘denier’ has been associated in popular language usage with rejecting the existence of something, science and logic prove them wrong.

If climate deniers are uncomfortable with being associated with holocaust deniers, vaccine deniers, moon landing deniers, 911 deniers, round earth deniers, they must deal with the fact that they are on equally shaky ground as the deniers who came before them.

Let’s apply Sigmund Freud and his use of the term ‘denier’ in drug addiction to our modern climate deniers.

The first stage of ‘denial’ is to deny the very existence of the thing that is being identified. This is a simple denial of fact, and we see that in the climate debate every day, as climate deniers look at the preponderance of the facts and cherry pick only the ones that support their belief.

The second stage of denial to Freud was denial of responsibility. We see that every day as well as climate deniers alternately blame some other source for the problem [solar activity, volcanism, natural cycles, etc]; minimize the impact [climate change may be happening but it is less harmful than stated]; justify the impact [it is our economy or our environment]; or regress to name calling, conspiracy theories or ulterior motivation.

The third Freudian stage of is denial of impact: the denier avoids thinking about or understanding the harms of his or her own behavior and its impact on him/herself or others, thus absolving themselves of guilt or responsibility by downplaying consequences and prevent him/her from developing remorse or empathy for others. [more CO2 will lead to enhanced plant growth and less people will go hungry].

The fourth stage is denial of cycle, or avoiding looking at decisions leading up to an impact or considering the decisions that led up to an impact, thus repeating the cycle until death occurs. We see that as the hubristic view that we may know that there is a problem [pollution] but we have no choice but to continue polluting because the perceived benefits of the pollution are so great that we cannot avoid them. [I see this every day as the ridiculous view that because carbon emissions have reduced poverty we have no choice but to continue emitting, never considering the fact that we can reduce poverty and reduce emissions at the same time, which is actually kind of the Pope’s point].

The fifth stage is denial of awareness, which we see as the insistence that there may be a preponderance of evidence but the ‘denier’ simply refuses to see it. [the source of data is flawed, or has ulterior motives, or is seeking grants, or are not really scientists, or I am smarter than them so why should I listen–in short the George Rebane syndrome.]

The final stage is ‘denial of denial’; we see that every day on the blogs wen illogical pontificators stamp their feet like children and say, “I am not a denier.”

In Freud’s world this phenomenon is expressed in the shorthand “DARVO.”

DARVO is an acronym to describe a common strategy of deniers: Deny the abuse, then attack the victim for attempting to make them accountable for their offense, thereby reversing victim and offender. We see this every day when climate deniers claim to be some sort of discriminated against victimized group.

To say that these people are not ‘climate deniers’ and that the term is inaccurate is a mistake by the AP, and I seriously doubt people are going to adopt ‘new language’ to gloss over the real source of the problem, a group within our society that is so addicted to the profit and comfort of bearing no responsibility for their actions that they engage in some sort of Orwellian fantasy to rationalize their behavior.


I think it more likely that the NYT is backing off of the "denier" label because they've figured out there is more science on the side of the opposition than they were willing to believe when the term crawled out of the neo-Nazi ooze to similarly defame folks based on their understanding of the science that is involved. In journalism and in science, folks who bought into the Warmist story are looking towards the exits and planning on saving face.

There might be value in revisiting the Kubler-Ross stages of loss and grief:
http://psychcentral.com/lib/the-5-stages-of-loss-and-grief/

After the glee of the release of the IPCC AR4 and AB32, the momentum has ceased, the hated "deniers" have refused to shut up and continue to gain ground in public opinion. And, as Lovelock stated five years ago,

"The great climate science centres around the world are more than well aware how weak their science is. If you talk to them privately they're scared stiff of the fact that they don't really know what the clouds and the aerosols are doing. They could be absolutely running the show. We haven't got the physics worked out yet."

On top of all that, the gold standard for measuring atmospheric temps, the satellites put in space to get a global view, have shown the air (which by the theory Frisch bought into is leading the warming) really did stop its forecast increase for nearly 19 years now, measurements confirmed by weather balloon soundings. Alarmists claim it's a pause, others suspect it was a maximum and we'll be in a cooling (or already are).

I put it to this blog that Steve Frisch is currently in the 2nd stage for California, and the 3rd stage of loss and grief for the world and the nation as a whole. He'll not move to Depression and Acceptance until our one party state of California moves back towards the center and drops Climate Change as a raison d'etre.

Bill  Tozer

Well Walt, let me show you how it's done: Tired of waiting in eager anticipation myself.

Yo Paul and Steve. Nothing behind my back, no fingers crossed. I dug up a visual aid that I believe you would actually enjoy for once. A token offering for common ground. Yep, I can see why you donate to Them Ladies Not a bad choice. I personally would like to send the one on the far right a donation as well. Not as photogenic as the others, but I can't resist a woman who holds on to a wee bit of mystic....or any woman in uniform.

Figure the Kurds are like those bastardi red headed step children that get the short end of the stick. Saddam gased them, the Turks bomb them, and ISIS shells them. They are my new favorite underdog. Like, the Kurds are in no man's land sitting on all that oil and tough as nails. Not Arabs, not Persians, not Turks or Gypies. And nobody claims them as their own. Plus, we all know who wears the pants in their families.
We agree on something besides hating Blavk Velvet Elvis Portraits. Enjoy.

https://www.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/pb.217926015008110.-2207520000.1443129889./730148870452486/?type=3&theater

Bill  Tozer

See Walt. Toss a little sexism their way and it soothes The Better Party's savage beast. A win-win situation and nobody gets butt hurt.

Jon

Not a bright future for diesel and loosening of diesel regulations.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/will-volkswagens-scandal-be-the-death-of-diesel-2015-09-24

The comments to this entry are closed.

Blog powered by Typepad