Taqiya on Steroids? (updated 4dec15)

George Rebane

The San Bernardino massacre investigation continues.  Given the evidence to date, the authorities still cannot decide whether it was just ‘workplace violence’ or the latest attack by Islamic terrorists.  What is reported by the news services – Associated Press, WSJ, … - is pretty compelling (more here).  We do know that –

1. The two shooters were Muslims – Syed Farook, a native born American citizen, and Tashfeen Malik, the immigrant wife of Farook and the mother of their 6-month old child.
2. Farook had travelled to Saudi Arabia last year from where he returned with Malik.
3. Upon his return he grew a beard as do many newly devout Muslim men.
4. He worked for San Berdoo county as a restaurant inspector, was a model citizen, and had no criminal record.
5. Before their 2dec15 attack at a county facility where a holiday party was in progress, the couple had made extensive preparations for acts of terror at their home which included pipe bombs, IEDs, radio controlled vehicles besides obtaining the full combat gear which they wore during their killing spree.  Earlier that day they gave their baby into the care of relatives.
6. Authorities on the scene stated that Farook and Malik were definitely executing a “planned mission”.  Given the preparations, there was no evidence of spontaneity in their attack.

There will undoubtedly be more and the story is still developing.  But what I want to cover here is that again we have an atrocious act of terror carried out by formerly normal people who worked, were raising a family, blended in admirably, and gave no evidence of anything aberrant before they acted.  In hindsight, the only attribute that connected them to such previous attacks is that the couple were practicing Muslims.

A Bayesian would take a look at the evidence and rationally conclude that yes, given the recent history of radical Islam and jihad, and the tenets of their faith, this couple would have a higher probability of being terrorists in waiting as they finally demonstrated to the world.  (For those who disagree, the Bayesian would be compelled to change his mind given evidence that religious belief was not a supportive/determinant factor.)

From the worldview which apparently guided Farook and Malik and so many Muslims today, is that these terrorists were courageous, self-sacrificing soldiers acting for and with the blessings of Allah.  They were prepared to die and die they did in the service of their faith.  In that worldview they were not cowards or miscreants but model mujahedeen serving as exemplars to their fellow believers in the spread of Islam. 

And to execute their plan they practiced taqiya to perfection.  Students of Islam and readers of these pages know that taqiyya or taqiya (q.v.) is the scripturally sanctioned practice of dissimulation and other forms of perfidy including the denial of one’s faith that is allowed Muslims if such practice may serve to promote the greater goals of Islam.  All such surprise attacks by Muslims living among us here and overseas are launched subsequent to successful preludes of taqiya.  Where in other belief systems such practice of ambush and shattering of the social contract would be considered abhorrent, in the world of radical Islam it is a much admired and condoned facet of selfless martyrdom.

The real problem that taqiya presents to America and the west is in how should we deport ourselves with our Muslim neighbors.  To continue normal social life in our land we must presume that the large fraction of Muslims among us would never practice taqiya and lay in wait for an opportunity to kill us and ours (polls to the contrary notwithstanding).  Yet every time one of their co-religionists perpetrates such an abhorrent act, it gives all non-Muslims pause as they review their relations with their Muslim friends and neighbors.  And that exactly is the aim of the jihadists.  They want to disrupt our social order, and they want to cast suspicion on their brethren living with us so as to compel them to opt for ‘their own kind’ as they drive the wedge they have created ever deeper between Islam and the world of the Kafir (q.v.).

I don’t see any ready solution to this growing schism between our civilizations save prompt, unfailing, strenuous, loud, and large scale demonstrations by moderate Muslims during which they denounce such acts of terror.  They cannot remain silent in the face of such killings, and they cannot shelter those of their own who preach violence against the west.  In sum, they cannot ask us to trust them more than they trust us, for that we have already done.  Contrary to the pabulum spewed by progressives, taqiya is an enduring problem which yields to no simple solution.

[4dec15 update]  Taqiya on steroids indeed.  This morning’s report from the Associated Press underlines the question posed by this commentary.

With a young wife, infant daughter and government job, Syed Farook appeared to have arrived at a sweet spot in life.  Friends knew the 28-year-old by his quick smile, his devotion to Islam and his earnest talk about cars he would restore.

With such neighbors, who among us would or could suspect the worst from these snakes in the grass who lye in wait for an opportunity to strike?  One of the main functions of a common culture is the efficiency it provides in organizing the practicing society – social intercourse is made more facile and productive when you can reliably predict the behavior of those whom you befriend or do business.   Their obvious display of a common culture (or social contract) lets us focus on matters at hand that progress our relationship rather than proceed in a wary manner that may even come down to an existential and reasonable fear for our personal safety.

Humans and animals share the same instinct in that regard.  When we encounter a situation with another critter capable of harming us and whose behavior we cannot reliably predict, we do one of three things – we distance ourselves from the potential threat, e.g. flee; we bolster our ability to counteract the threat, e.g. we arm ourselves; or we pre-emptively attempt to neutralize the threat, e.g. incapacitate or kill it.  What we don’t do is conduct business as usual pretending that the risk to our own person and those in our care doesn’t exist.  Critters who didn’t successfully follow that instinct soon became extinct.

Today we are in a quandary that is exacerbated by our progressive betters.  Any discussion such as found on these pages about Islamic terrorism is proscribed, and the discussants vilified as some social cretins or lower forms of life.  The proffered wisdom is for us to continue playing the odds with members of a group that has and continues to spawn so much violence based on a fundamental hatred of our civilization and way of life.  The appeal to reason here is that their bad guys make up such a small fraction of their population (there are about 3M Muslims in the US), that we shouldn’t worry about incidents like the San Berdoo massacre.  (The Left then doubles down by again renewing their perennial assault on the Second Amendment in order to disarm law-abiding citizens, as if that mattered in reducing the Islamist terror threat.  But that is another agenda and story.)

A counter reasonable argument is to do everything to reduce the size of the suspect Muslim population to an identifiable cohort that has a higher likelihood of sourcing an attack on us.  And yes, that means that we would need to (gasp!) discriminate and bring special resources to bear to vet our Muslim neighbors in their communications, travels, and also in their mosques.  As argued here before, our Muslim neighbors would do themselves and us a great good if they volubly protested the terror acts of their jihadists, and moreover if they exposed such jihadists in waiting/training who live and hide among them.  That would provide the rest with visible evidence that ‘moderate Islam’ exists with motives and means to purge itself of elements that mean harm to all of us.

To date we have seen no such evidence.  It has been days since Mr and Mrs Farood murdered and maimed, and all we are talking about with the Muslim leaders is how we should take care not to paint all America’s Muslims as potential terrorists, while the example of the Faroods and so many before them call out for something much more proactive in countering Islamic terror.  Are there really no discernible attributes that can differentiate the high risk cohort among Muslims?  Can travel to countries where radical Islamic organizations headquarter or rule be a viable discriminant?  Most certainly evidence, such as contact with and/or pledging loyalty to organizations such the much underestimated ISIS, should be a useful and used discriminant to identify higher risk individuals.  But asking America to continue swimming in shark infested waters with nothing but the comfort of unknown statistics on our side will not help relations between the Muslim communities and their non-Muslim neighbors.

Finally, I again draw attention to the fact that taqiya and its obvious successful practice here and abroad is a proscribed topic for us to examine and discuss.  Yet it is Islam's scripturally sanctioned practice of taqiya, unique in the annals of today’s religious observances, that lays their moral foundation for unsuspected terror.

The bottom line is that institutionally we no longer have defenses against such assaults.  Christianity in decline has long ceased to be a belief system in the west that can defend itself.  And our newly strident socialist principals and principles in government call for America’s fundamental transformation, which now advocate our shrinking from Islam’s advance as the means to bring us to a global power peerage in preparation for a new world order.  And none of this is a conspiratorial undertaking, it is all happening in the open for all to see who need only look.

Comments

[Russ Steele]

Progressive PC contributed to this bloody carnage. A neighbor was suspicious of all the late night activity in a closed garage, the delivery of multiple packages, and coming and going of groups of young men at night. But, chose not to report it because they did not want to be considered racist. They drank the Progressive PC cool aid and as a result 14 people are dead and 21 wounded. Had they not followed the tenants of Progressive PC, the police would have been alerted and this bloody carnage could have been prevented.

[Bill Tozer]

Were we not instructed by our very own President "if you see something suspicious, report it?" Maybe he said it off prompter.

[Walt]

Man O man. Once again anyone who is someone, is looking for anything to call this event anything BUT terrorism by Muslims. Yet every tactic and bomb recipe comes from the Jihadist
"cookbook".

[Don Bessee]

Recent trip to jihadi lands, quack. Bomb factory, quack. Watched ISIS videos on line, quack. Started beard after last trip to Saudi, quack. Quack, quack, quack, quack. Sounds like a duck.

[Bill Tozer]

Good post. I have no real solutions to the overall problem as outlined in the post. I can point to Hindus or The Swiss or the Brazilians or the Chinese, Japanese, Candians, Outer Mongolians as examples of people's who do not go around shooting up Christmas Party attendees and strapping on the ole suscide vests. There is only one group that is hell bent on killing civilians and that group is the Islamists. But, that does not solve the problem or offer any solutions.
Despite the cries of our college crybabies, there is no safe zone in life. Expecting to be 100% protected from bad things is unrealistic. We will always be beset with wildfires, floods, power outages (imagine the grid going down for a month), terror attacks by Islamics in their host countries, drive by shootings, psychopathic homicial nutcases, etc.
What we can do is prepare, prepare, prepare. Redundant back up systems, food and fuel storage, And don't forget that the pets need water. As far as our relations with our fellow man during times of high alert, I would suggest a firearm to protect self and loved ones. Not a solution, but something we can do. Studies show people who shoot back are less likely to become victims.

Details from the carnage, no solutions offered.
http://patriotpost.us/alexander/39268

[Walt]

Right on schedule LIBS in D.C. start yapping about "common sense" gun legislation.
There are 20,000 gun laws on the books nation wide. SO Progressives,,, just what "law" would fix this? Use some "common sense", and stay within the 2ND Amendment.
There are laws against building bombs. A lot of good that did.
Gun confiscation just ain't going to happen. Ca. has plenty of gun laws. Even how they are made. Did these terrorists stay within the gun laws? Did they only use 10 round mag.s?

[Walt]

WOW!! A whole new "scary" name for a gun!
http://dailycaller.com/2015/12/03/democratic-rep-sanchez-decries-multiautomatic-round-weapons-video/

"multiautomatic round weapons"
Sorry batshit crazy LIB,, no "automatic" weapons used.
" AR " does not stand for "automatic rifle". OR " assault rifle".

Don't like guns woman? FINE.. Lets take away your body guards weapons.

[Peter Van Zant]

If it is desired that Muslin Americans stand up against terrorists shootings it would also be desirable if moderate Christens stood up against the American terrorists who are committing shootings and murders almost daily in America, many in the name of their "Christen" beliefs.

[Bill Tozer]

Love the moral equivalency there Peter. We will follow "their" lead, grasshopper.

[fish]

Posted by: Peter Van Zant | 03 December 2015 at 01:20 PM,

"Christen"?

Well the next time you hear of a "Christen" yell the equivalent of "Allahu Akbar" when he shoots up the place you be sure and let me know.

[Don Bessee]

You mean the gang members in Chicago, Detroit and Baltimore and so on?

[Walt]

WTF???? Just where did that come from? BTW Pete,,, it's Christian....
And just who and where in the U.S. is said "hate crime" happening? LIBS would have that plastered all over the news. Yet Christians are getting slaughtered by Muslims and not a damned thing is being done to help them.

[Todd Juvinall]

Peter Van Zant | 03 December 2015 at 01:20 PM

Please supply some links would you? I watch the news everyday and read two newspapers and I really can't recall a similar act in Christ's name.

Evangelical's come out against violence though on a daily basis. So does the Catholic Church. I just can't recall Islamic clerics doing that.

So, unless you can give us some proof, you are blowing smoke.

What is a Christen? A new knock-off faith of some sort?

[Bill Tozer]

Christen must be a Dutch name. Hmm.

[Jon]

For the benefit of the Lather Brigade gathered on this forum, I believe the point Peter was trying to make is that what these lunatic terrorists are doing is not Islam, it bears no resemblance to Islam. Its their Islamist/Terrorist corrupted version of Islam, just as Ted Cruz and the far right Christian churches who advocate the death penalty for homosexuality and other such lunatic fringe ideas- are espousing very corrupted versions of Christianity.

[Walt]

Sure "jon",,, whatever ya' say. More crapspew from the peanut gallery.
You still have explained how you knew they were Muslim from the git go.
(lucky guess?)

[Bill Tozer]

Mr. Van Jones..er..Mr. Van Z:
Ok, the mass murder is justified because America Bad. Did I get that right, Mr. Former Supervisor? Or are the mass murders rationalized because America has been berry berry bad? I always confuse which comes first. Do you rationalize a bad deed to justify one's response, or is it you justify a bad deed to rationalize one's response? Bad America, bad. Yes, the USA is to blame and she hangs her head low, ashamed and now has uncomfortable feelings with no safe zone. Alas, we are a bad Nation.

BTW, good job on saving the spotted owl. The Owl and her owlets are doing fine. Thanks again.

[Michael R. Kesti]

Walt 03Dec15 01:45 PM
Todd Juvinall 03Dec15 01:48 PM

Who would ever have thought that Walt and Todd would reveal latent spelling-Nazi tendencies in back to back posts? The mind boggles!

Todd, try a Google search on "christian american terrorists" and you'll find plenty of links.

[Walt]

"common sense" gun law. Every person who is legally allowed to own a gun shall be armed.
All "gun free zones" to be abolished.

That would make any idiot think twice before pulling a gun to do harm.

[Walt]

Turnabout is fair play there Kesti. Yaaa.... speaking of "spelling nazis",,,,...
You were quick to jump my sh** for the same offence more than once...

[Gregory]

Van Zant is on a rant... I don't know any "Christens" who rationalize any mass killings.

I guess I missed the fatwas that must have been called on all those false Moslems out there... unless "Jon" is hallucinating from his perch where the sun does not shine.

[Bill Tozer]

Jon the interpreter. Now, that is a fitting title. Thanks for jumping in here, Jon, and telling us what the good former supervisor Peter meant by what he said when he said it. Your good deed of the day. Now I know what you mean by your constant references to "we". And all this time I thunk wrong and figured "we" meant Mr. Babyface Steve or that other cat who always uses "we" to bolster his argument, the one and only Purple Pillsbury Doughboy. Thanks for the clarification. We means "me and my Peter", right?
Lather up Peter, Jon is right behind you.

[fish]

Posted by: Jon | 03 December 2015 at 02:08 PM

Well now you're just embarrassing yourself. Islam has no center....no Pope....no ultimate earthly authority. Crazy shooters flavor of Islam is every bit as real and authentic as your tepid Morgan Freeman in Robin Hood with Kevin Costner flavored interpretation of Islam.

[Bill Tozer]

Van Zant is one a rant? Ah, a poem. Hey, if the glove don't fit, you must acquit.
Back to Peter's message to us. About these "daily murders, many in the name of their Christen beliefs." Many? OK, I will concede the point just to move this along. If given only two choices, I would go with daily murders, many in the name of Christen beliefs as opposed to daily murders, ALL in the name in their Islamic beliefs.

Geez, what is it with your former supervisors, Todd and Peter? Neither one of you can spell worth a darn.....at times.

[Walt]

Well a pattern has emerged. Am I the only one who has seen it?
Every time "O" and Co. says "we are safe from terror", or Terrorists are contained,
all hell breaks loose. and terrorists strike. Someone better tell them to keep their collective pie holes shut. LIB comments of "safety" are the attack trigger words.

[Gregory]

looks like my "end italics" html stopped what fish started at 1:42.

It hasn't been reported as such, but it appears then latest shooting was in yet another pretend gun free zone.

Still no word on the gun free status of the so-called Sierra Business Council or Sierra Food/Whine/Art.

[George Rebane]

fish 1033pm - We may have to take the HTML italics away from you ;-) There is no need to italicize the "Posted by ....", the line feed itself delimits the referred commenter.

jon 208pm - Where did you get "Ted Cruz and the far right Christian churches who advocate the death penalty for homosexuality and other such lunatic fringe ideas"? Here we are talking existential death by terror motivated by religion, and to that you contribute what?

BTW, I love the ongoing and growing hubris of the progressives as they deny the religion of a people by ignoring their own declarations, actions, and exhortations. It is the central planner elitists' ever popular 'we know better what you are and what you mean' reduced down for local expression and consumption. Who are these people who can tell thousands or millions of devout Muslims that they are not Muslims???

[Walt]

Nope,, The LIBS and "O" will have NONE of this. Yet "common sense legislation"
https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/402
The National right to carry act.

[Todd Juvinall]

Michael R. Kesti | 03 December 2015 at 02:20 PM

Yep it jumped right ut there. I learned from you.

I googled what you said and there is a couple. of those. The one that jumped out though was their claim Timothy McViegh was bombing as a Christian. Now we all know that is BS. Also the killer in the SC church last year did not kill shouting "I am a Christian". So I must disagree. There are few killing anyone, let alone mass killings, in America claiming they are doing it for Jesus.

Regarding "jon's" defense of Van Zant's claim. Simply rubbish. If he meant what you said he meant he would have written that himself. He is smart and verbose and does not need "jon" putting words in his mouth. So another load of crap from "jon".

[fish]

Oh Babs.....with you leaving the senate the only source I'll have for humor is jeffy.

http://www.mediaite.com/online/dem-sen-cites-success-of-gun-laws-in-california-a-day-after-san-bernardino/

Timing....thy name is Boxer!

[Bill Tozer]

Oh, Jon is busy right now with his Peter. Opps, I have no idea where that came from.

Dr. Rebane: Pssst. Sandbox full already, burying my best comment. :). So, you leave me no choice (blame the Doc because I am not responsible for my actions) but to post this link. Very off topic, but food for thought to chew on for especially you and Mr. Gregory. And it does mention terrorists in a mathematical open equation.
Sandbox needs to be fed, new sandbox is hungry. Has empty stomach.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2015/12/03/it-pains-me-to-write-this-obamas-first-summit-on-high-schools-was-a-big-fail/

[Don Bessee]

So why is anyone surprised the 'jon' is putting his talking points words in someone else's mouth again?

[George Rebane]

BillT 346pm - Mr Tozer, you(r) slightest whim is my wish (or is it the other way round?).

Thanks for the pick up. Yes, it was the rain that washed it away ;-)

[Bill Tozer]

Your wish is my commando, Dr. Rebane. Oh yeah, you forgot the R in "your". Must be the rain.
The Muslim spokespeople are saying don't paint them all with the psychopathic brush.

They do have a point. Feel sorry for them, all huddled in fear after that Moroccian cab driver that got killed or robbed or something. They just got finished denouncing the Paris mass murderers, and now they feel compelled to denounce San Berdo's mass murderers. Maybe it is unreasonable for the Ametican Islamic Community to have to run to the microphone every time someone screams God is Great. I sure would hate to be sitting in a nice diner or bar and hear someone yelling something about Allah. That would ruin a perfectly good dinner, but desert would be on me. Yep, always good to bring the treats to a picnic.
So, the counter argument is we (my kind) should not have to go out and defend every Ted Kazinski and Charlie Manson in the US each time they kill, main, injure, or bust people up real bad. First, Charlie can't vote (yet) and Ted is a progressive academic elitist from god forsaken Berkeley of all places. Let the libs defend him. But, that is a valid point the Ametican Islamic Community makes. No peace demonstrations necessary.
So, of the billion Islamics in the world, probably most of them are not psychotic mass murderers. Sure, they practice on each other before venturing "out there", but not all of them. Baby steps and all that.

[George Rebane]

I would dearly like to hear some ideas on how to deal with the 'taqiya' issue that is the main point of my commentary here. What do we do, what should we do? I'm hearing crickets here; we all want to talk about the easy one line slogans.

[Account Deleted]

George at 5:35
Our dear leader provided an example of how to deal with that lil' problem.
A certain lad came to school with a replica suit case bomb and those that didn't agree with that sort of non-sense are currently being sued for millions. The lad in question was lauded by our pres at the white house for his - hmmm.. something. Is it any wonder the neighbors are cowed into silence when a coven of terrorists are meeting to plot their murders?
Remember - when you see a white, Euro-descent male doing something, say something. Otherwise it would be best to just avoid eye contact and pray they slaughter some one you don't know.
Look - the solution is common sense.
Do you really think that's going to happen?
One of the folks posting here thinks there are 'Christen' terrorists roaming our land.
How can we find common ground when many are so far out in space, they have lost track of where 'ground' is?

[Gregory]

"The key now is for us to be as outraged by San Bernadino massacre as we would be if Muslim extremists were doing the killing. This is terror"
— Geraldo Rivera (@GeraldoRivera) December 2, 2015

Geraldo came to the correct decision when he thought it must be white rednecks, even before it became obvious to almost everyone... but the President is still on the fence... he thinks might be a case of workplace violence.

I salute the "progressive" left on their doubling down against the 2nd and for unrestricted immigration from middle East war zones into the US.

[Bill Tozer]

Here is what the American Islamic community is planning to do. "A good offense is the best defense." Unfortunately for many non violent American Islamics, their spokespersons and experts rarely spend anytime outside the confines of academica. Now that the American Islamic communities are feeling the heat and backlash where the rubber meets the road, they correctly realize that their silence has been interpreted by Americans in general as tactic approval of radical extreme interpretations of the Koran. It's now time for them to set us straight. That is they cards they have been dealt, right or wrong, fairly or unfairly.
As Dr. Rebane pointed out, the days of hearing "trust me" from the American Islamic Community are over. Want trust and tolerance directed your way? Earn it. The American people are a forgiving generous people once you proven you aren't head choppers and pediphiles.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/after-paris-and-california-attacks-us-muslims-feel-intense-backlash/2015/12/03/bcf8e480-9a09-11e5-94f0-9eeaff906ef3_story.html

[Gregory]

After such shootings, there are calls for new gun laws that inevitably are 2nd amendment infringements and would have done nothing against the event that was the reason for the new law in the first place. I've been giving the San Berdoo massacre some thought and I've an idea that both left and right could agree upon...

Forbid gun ownership to all state and local public employees with exceptions for service weapons owned by active duty police only.

A separate Federal law.would be passed for their employees.

What do you think? There's a constitutional right to own and carry guns, but there is no constitutional right to a public job. At any time a public employee can buy a gun... but it would be considered a resignation from their job, opening it up for someone volunteering to give them up to better serve Vaal.

[Jon]

Scott, so the solution (to Islamic extremist terrorism) is common sense? Please tell us.

Thanks.

[Gregory]

"Jon", reading Scott O's post with a little common sense would give you the answer you seek

You are Michael P. Anderson, aren't you? Peas from the same pod if not.

[Bill Tozer]

Well, this has disaster written all over it. We all know Obama has one big soft spot in his heart for certain Islamists like The Brotherhood, but me thinks we have put the coyote guarding the hen house judging by Obamas' splendid inner circle. Might explain a lot about Obama's world view, or just reinforce my view of Obama's world view.

https://pjmedia.com/trending/2015/12/3/obama-names-hamas-sympathizer-as-new-isis-czar

[Peter Van Zant]

Apologies for the misspelling. Must be the American educational system. Todd: Thanks for asking for a clarification. In my opinion the religious right has amped up their anti-abortion rhetoric (murders, baby killers)to the point that it is no surprise that there are continued attacks on abortion and woman's health centers. I haven't heard about any public backlash from the Christian community over these attacks and murders. My other point is that given all of the gun murders in America I'm disappointed that mainstream and conservative Christian groups do not seem to be supporting sensible gun laws to reduce the carnage.

[fish]

"But violence ticked up dramatically in the 1990s. Anti-abortion extremists -- particularly those aligned with the extremist group Army of God -- began to make their position clear that killing abortion providers was the only way to stop the procedure from being performed.

• Dr. David Gunn was shot and killed in Pensacola, Florida, by a gunman who was against abortion in March 1993.

• Dr. John Bayard Britton and his volunteer security escort, James H. Barrett, were shot and killed in front of a Pensacola clinic in July 1994.

• Clinic employees Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols were shot and killed in Brookline, Massachusetts, in December 1994.

• Off-duty police Officer Robert Sanderson was killed in the bombing of a clinic in Birmingham, Alabama, in January 1998.

• A sniper killed Dr. Barnett Slepian in Amherst, New York, in October 1998. The 51-year-old physician had been the target of anti-abortion protesters since the 1980s.

• An anti-abortion gunman killed 67-year-old George Tiller in a Wichita, Kansas, church in 2009. Tiller was one of the few U.S. physicians who performed late-term abortions."

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/30/us/anti-abortion-violence/

10....maybe 12 killed over a 20 year period and the left loses it's mind. 14 killed in a single day by those with links to middle eastern terror....and you nitwits are like.".....hey.....let's not rush to judgement here!"

[Michael R. Kesti]

Peter Van Zant 04Dec15 09:01 AM

Please provide an outline of a sensible gun law that would have prevented what happened in San Bernardino this week.

[Bill Tozer]

Peter, and your post has exactly what to do with Islamic Mass Murder in Western Civ countries? I certainly hope you can put your lips together and say"Islamic terrorist", or "Radical Extremist Islamic Terrorism" or which our government has barred those on its payroll from saying. Cannot call a spade a spade because it might make Muslims feel uncomfortable??
No worries about spelling..we like to jab about spelling back and forth. And this is a PC free zone. You can say what your leaders and media tell you that it is sooo wrong to say.
Guess you do not spend much time in the Christian community or else you would be very very hard put to find even the most minute hint ofsupport of killing abortion doctors. If you feel that way, so be it.

[larry wirth]

George, to tackle the taqiya question, Americans first need to know what it is and where it comes from. To that end, it would be a good idea if the 99% who haven't yet done so would read the Koran (spell it anyway you like). This is a most disagreeable task, but a necessary one if one wants to understand.

This would be especially useful for Jon (obviously one of the 99%), for there he will find, direct from the mouthpiece of Allah, explicit direction to kill homosexuals as well as anyone else who refuses to submit.

I know, there is much barbarism in the Old Testament, but the teachings of Christ declared most of it obsolete. Unlike Islam which is explicitly excused from any modifications whatever by its so-called final prophet.

[Todd Juvinall]

Peter Van Zant | 04 December 2015 at 09:01 AM

I guess 12 killings by unhinged people by people who really don't even claim to be killing in the name of Christianity is an equal to all these killers claiming allegiance to Islam? I don't get your allegation.

I have attended a evangelical church for 12 years and not one time has violence ever been discussed as a solution to things like abortion. Christians do not think like that. The New Testament is all about love and getting along and forgiveness. I would suggest you start attending to get some first hand info. Filtered opinions by the left in America are what are causing angst. Amped up words like child parts and other things like that are what your liberal friends are putting into the vernacular.

So, I reject your claim of some equivalency bewtween the religions. Ain't happening.

[Michael R. Kesti]

I subscribe to a few left-wing mailing lists to observe what they say when they believe they are preaching to their own choirs. Minutes ago I received an email from Amy K. Dacey of Democrats.org asking me to add my name to a list "of the millions of Americans who are ready for commonsense gun law reform." Of course, no definition of "commonsense gun law reform" is provided.

[Todd Juvinall]

There are apparently 20,000 gun laws on the books. I would suggest there is no solution to people killing people no matter how many laws there are. Just like any law there are always those that figure out a way around them or they totally disregard them. The ultimate goal seems to me the confiscation of all weapons. Well, firearms. In other countries they use anything they can get their hands on to dispatch someone.

All those "common sense" gun laws have already been passed and are enforced. These Islamic killers made pipe bombs from common household chemicals found under the sink.

I also subscribe to the DailyKos and a few other liberal/lefty organizations to keep up with their latest propaganda.

Now our AG in DC is telling people that if you criticize Islam you may be prosecuted.

[Peter]

Todd: I'm glad your church is against the violence visited on abortion and women's health centers. It would be very powerful if religious leaders would be in the public forefront of condemning those attacks.

[fish]

Posted by: Peter | 04 December 2015 at 10:12 AM

Always double down........

[Gregory]

Peter, it would be very powerful for you to not withhold a denunciation of evil because you think others didn't properly denounce a separate and prior evil act.

I realize many progressives are upset that the recent massacre doesn't fit their preferred template, but that's the reality... it wasn't a redneck.

[Jon]

"I have attended a evangelical church for 12 years" Todd J.

LOL! The definition of DISCONNECT.

[George Rebane]

Re Peter Van Zant's crickets responding to any evidence of "American terrorists who are committing shootings and murders almost daily in America, many in the name of their "Christen" beliefs." Unless Mr Van Zant present even a smidgeon of such evidence of the many American terrorists acting in the name of Christ, his charge joins the baseless progressive postulations rendered in the hope that no one looks behind the curtain. Were Mr Van Zant more aware of the news he would know that there is a constant condemnation from church leaders of even the slightest violence (e.g. against abortion clinics) committed in the name of Christianity. The latest was broadcast on NPR today in its 'Morning Edition'.

I also draw your attention to the 4dec15 update of the above commentary.

larryw 938am - Larry, I provided an explanatory link in my post and have defined taqiya many times in these pages, including the present commentary. A simple search of RR on the matter reveals all.

Agree with your point distinguishing Christian and Muslim scriptures. The Christian progression was from the Old Testament's recounting of Jews fighting their neighbors while showing no mercy, to the New Testament's message of no violence and 'turn the other cheek'. The careful reader will note that no Christians existed in the Old Testament which is included to provide the grander provenance to the advent of Christ. While with Islam it was the opposite - the Quran's first 20% was written in Mecca when Islam was nascent and weak; its 80% sequel was written in Medina after Islam had established itself and was already successfully spreading by the sword. Lest there be any doubt about which part to follow, the Prophet made it clear that if later parts contradict earlier parts, the later parts apply. And the Medina Quran is anything but a prescription for a religion of peace.

[Todd Juvinall]

Peter | 04 December 2015 at 10:12 AM

The point is the Pastors speak of love and peace. Imams speak of murder and Jihad. Is that not clear to you?

Please supply a incident here in America of a Christian declaring he is murdering for Christianity.

'jon" no one cares what you think. You are a useful idiot for us here.

[Don Bessee]

The FBI just said the evidence pushed them off the cliff and they had to declare San Bernardino terrorism. Pushed them off the cliff?

[Bill Tozer]

Peter did not come here to discuss Muslims or any Islamic bad ju-ju. He came here only to condemn the silence coming from the pulpit. I went to a church when I was a church goer and was so relieved to find out that political events were not even discussed, only in passing if ever and on topic. Pick up the yellow pages and you will find more churches than bars. Or thereabouts. You want all these groups to speak with one voice? Who might that spokesperson be? If it is God, you are out of luck. He has been banished from the public square.
Bottom line, you came here to shout "glass houses". Well, Peter, you a wee bit late to the Party. Brothers Ben and Paul and Pretty Boy Steve have been doing the same here, year in and year out. Must not criticize or even point the undeniable obvious in front of ones face without the cry that "there's blood on your hands too, and you guys started it.
Nothing new under the sun. Deflection to prevent detection. And your people say we are closed minded???????

[George Rebane]

BillT 1130am - Your point is well made Mr Tozer, and should be constantly highlighted in these posts (I have tried). The progressive's answer to all assaults on America from whatever quarter - They are doing now what we did then, therefore we should understand, excuse, and forgive. And that does not even take their jaundiced perspective of our history into account.

DonB 1129am - Given all the evidence that immediately became available and public, that it took the FBI so long to make the terrorism declaration finally convinces me that despite Director Comey's very reasonable public image, the FBI has been co-opted and politicized by the White House. Ergo Hillary is safe.

[Don Bessee]

So we now know the SB isis attackers used guns purchased by a 3rd party or straw buyer. Could that individual be one of the guys seen coming and going from the bomb factory? Interesting that there was nothing in the press conf. about all the guys the neighbors saw.

[Gregory]

Here's an NRA statement reported in USA Today, which is arguably more of a newspaper than Sierra Food/Whine/Art is a magazine:

Just when we think that politics can’t sink any lower, President Obama once again proves us wrong by politicizing the tragedy in San Bernardino before the facts were even known. What we do know is that the American people are heartbroken by these horrific crimes — and despite what the president would have us believe — America’s law-abiding gun owners are heartbroken by these horrific crimes as well. At the same time, we are sick and tired of this president suggesting the men and women of the National Rifle Association are somehow to blame.

The National Rifle Association is not to blame. Neither is our Second Amendment freedom. An act of evil unfolded in California. President Obama used it not as a moment to inform or calm the American people; rather, he exploited it to push his gun control agenda. Policy discussions should be intellectually honest and based on facts, not politics. And the fact remains that California has already adoptedPresident Obama’s gun control wish list: "universal" background checks, registration, waiting periods, gun bans, magazine bans and an expansion of prohibited gun categories. But those laws did nothing to prevent this horrific crime from taking place. Nothing.

Here's another fact: the president’s failed foreign policy has made us less safe. And his domestic gun control agenda would jeopardize our safety even further. In California, President Obama had what he wanted — the strictest gun control in the country — and it did not prevent this evil act. The plain truth is that the president cannot keep us safe. And his policies would leave us defenseless. That's why our Second Amendment right to defend ourselves must be protected...

Jeff likes to argue against caricatures where he can be assured of winning... his own sandbox. The NRA (I am not a member) has it right this time.

[George Rebane]

Here is a leading but rare Muslim voice speaking out.
http://dailysignal.com/2015/12/04/leading-muslim-voice-speaks-out-against-islamic-extremism/?utm_source=heritagefoundation&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=morningbell&mkt_tok=3RkMMJWWfF9wsRovuqzNZKXonjHpfsX56%2BQoXaa%2BlMI%2F0ER3fOvrPUfGjI4AT8pjPK%2BTFAwTG5toziV8R7jHKM1t0sEQWBHm

[Bill Tozer]

Hear, hear. Dr. Rebane. Glad you found one reasonable voice. However, can we believe what was said? This guy may be legit, but how many many Islamic-American leaders say the same thing with knifes behind their backs ready to sink those knives into our bellies? I have heard those worlds before, then later find out they are 100% pro Sharia Law. Can we trust the words of those who say they come in peace and are but wolves in sheep's clothing?
The man interviewed does make a valid point. Supremacy of the Islam is not confined to members of ISIS only. A devote Islamic may not be a terrorist or a violent Islamic, but holds dearly to ISIS's goals as being compatible with Islam in general.
There is no real verbal test for priorities of the heart. As written before, blood is thicker than water. First love and all that. I have a trust issue at the moment. Burn me once......

[George Rebane]

BillT 407pm - Your points need be considered Mr Tozer. My tendency is to believe the man, since by making those statements he is putting himself at risk from some of his more theocratically ardent brethren. But I do want to draw attention to his remarks corroborating that Islamic supremacy is not limited to the extremist ragheads, but the belief and hope is held by much larger fractions of Islam, especially the man in the street. Local lefties have dunned RR every time I cite the polls that show such widespread sentiment among Muslims.

[Todd Juvinall]

It is interesting to see the left trying a "moral equivalency" between the head choppers and Christians. I mean, what kind of noggin does one have for that? Jeeze!

[Walt]

CAIR has come out and said they don't like Trump. Well now. Which direction do you think his poll numbers will go?
It's now official, it's terrorism.(no shit) Now only second to 9/11.. So what does "O" and Co. dwell on? "gun control".
On the word of this attack, every CWP class is booked solid. Applications of CWPs are too numerous to count. And that's just in Ca.

And just a day before the shooting,, a certain guy from Nevada City was defending "these people". Born and raised an American, then gets a wife from the "old country",, then decides to shoot his co-workers at a Christmas party. Religion on religion crime?

[Bill Tozer]

Walt, now it will be a constant drumbeat of Blame The Wife!! Watch the media, it's all her fault. "You can't blame him, he was such a nice sweet boy until SHE did this to him,"

ROTFLMAO

For our Old Testament readers, you don't have to read very far into Chapter 1 to come to the part when Adam and Eve broke the rules. Adam's response to God? "That woman you gave me made me do it!!!" ( from memory). Later on, when Abraham got impatient or something, his reply was the same, "That wife of mine made me to it!" No longer blame the devil, it's blame....as President Clinton would say, "THAT woman".
Oh boy, human nature has not changed much.
The libs and their media partners (or is it the MSM and their lib partners?) are going to bend over backwards and will not rest until the murdering American citizen nice boy next door is somehow absolved from his actions. It's wasn't him, he is not to blame. He done got radicalized by "that woman".
Nothing new under the sun. But, don't blame Islam, blame Monica. Lol.

[Account Deleted]

Walt at 6:24: "...Christmas party..."
OMG - that's a micro aggression right there.
In the news, Walt, it was properly described as a 'holiday party'.
You're going to spin up the Christian terrorists again with that kind of talk.
Mr Van Zant has explained to you how that works. Pretty soon there will be another gang of Christ zealots machine gunning a mosque.
Oh - wait. Oh, that's right - it's Moslems machine gunning Christians at worship. OK - never mind.

[Walt]

You got something there Bill. She cut him off from the bedroom fun and games. (An Americanized woman!) " Not until we do a jehad run." Yup,, that would make a guy not think straight. Living with one's Mamma under the roof was the real trigger.

[Walt]

But Scott!! Most of the dead and wounded were near the Christmas tree! Was it the ham?
Or was it the fact no goat was being dished up? Word has it someone poked a little fun
at his crappy face hair. The kind young ECO brats try and sprout.(thin, patchy, and scraggly.) Not the nice thick and well maintained like Dr.R's and my own.

[Bonnie McGuire]

I always think about Russia's (socialist) communist labor union party leader Khrushchev being asked what religion he preferred. His answer was "Islam." Why? It's totalitarian, and the members can lie to accomplish their goal. And then I think about Germanys hated National Socialist (nazi) labor union party of Adolph Hitler we seem to be following. Wonder why former President Bush sr. didn't mention the National Socialism concerning our new global government. He said it wouldn't be communism or capitalism. However, the problem is that you can't trust anyone who believes the end justifys the dishonest means they use to accomplish their goal. Have the Muslim Terrorists been hired to eliminate our Constitutional America of, by and for us in order to complete the new world order National Socialist world order? I really feel sorry for all the good, honest people in America and the world. The old divide and conquer stimulated by the controlled media is in full swing. Our salvation is obvious in General George Washintons vision at Valley Forge concerning the terrible third battle on our soil by the invasion of the red cloud from Europe, Africa and Asia. Although the date may have been tampered with it certainly looks like what we're beginning to experience. It gives the solution to winning...that makes sense, because we obviously don't have any national security.

http://www.ushistory.org/valleyforge/washington/vision.html

[Bill Tozer]

Walt, little head takes over, big head shuts down.
Ok, just to test my last post, I just skimmed the first 3 different articles from 3 different news sources. Yep, blame the woman. In all 3, in the first or second sentence the proof is in the pudding.
Stuff like "the Pakastain Malik led her husband on a killing spree.......she and her husband.....the wife and her husband shot up the.....
See, she gets top billing now. 3 out of 3 mentioned her first followed by her husband, all at the first mentioning of the names of the murderers state "the wife and husband." or a close substitute.
Well, beauty before age. Must be a mind blowing gun chamber under that burka to make him go so crazy.
Guess it is toss the Islamic foreigner woman under the bus and spare the US born Islamic kid next door. Boy, talk about the war on women.

[Account Deleted]

from the good Mr Van Zant - " My other point is that given all of the gun murders in America I'm disappointed that mainstream and conservative Christian groups do not seem to be supporting sensible gun laws to reduce the carnage."
Dear Mr Van Zant. Let me explain something to you. When Christians in this country identify themselves as faithful followers of Christ and then attempt to opine or attempt to influence public policy, we are told to shut up and go away. That we are trying to establish a 'theocracy'. That we are trying to 'ram our religion' down the public's throat. Now you wonder why we don't try to pass laws and such.
Maybe the left wing (Van Zant included) can go away for a week or two and come up with some sort of coherent and rational set of ideas on the subject.
Maybe Van Zant can come up with an actual idea of a 'common sense gun law' for our nation that would have prevented the killings in San Berdu. But I doubt it.
It is educational to visit the convoluted sort of twisted logic that Van Zant, etal fill their minds with.

[Todd Juvinall]

Hey ScottO, these liberals are so uptight about guns. There are maybe 15k dead a year yet, they got DDT banned and over three million Africans die every year from malaria and other insect borne diseases. Do you think there is a disconnect in their brains about this?

[fish]

Posted by: Scott Obermuller | 04 December 2015 at 08:08 PM

Generally I think it's pretty silly when a post earns a bunch of, "Well said(s)" and "Thank you for sharing(s)" but that was an excellent post Scott!

Will it make an impact on Mr. Van Zant?

.....not a chance.

[fish]

Posted by: Scott Obermuller | 04 December 2015 at 08:08 PM

Generally I think it's pretty silly when a post earns a bunch of, "Well said(s)" and "Thank you for sharing(s)" but that was an excellent post Scott!

Will it make an impact on Mr. Van Zant?

.....not a chance.

[Don Bessee]

We have the 0 gun agenda in CA and it only benefits the criminals. Legal guns with a straw buyer, Jihadi dogs and illegal tactical modifications slaughtered the Christmas Party. Lets not even talk about the bomb factory. Criminals and Terrorists are never going to give a shit about your stinkin rules.

[Bill Tozer]

Gentlemen and Lady.
I use "thank you for sharing" as a quick yet very condescending reply to the bull pucky some hapless lost soul with Broken Thinker Affliction just posted. Are you telling me that the last time I used that phrase (to jon or Mr. Lardass, I can't recall) that you fine gentlemen thunk it was a compliment or tacit approval? Oh my, I mustn't do that again.

Bonnie, your link left me with goose bumps. What a link. Thank you....not "thank you for sharing", but just thank you. :)

[Bill Tozer]

Islamists don't kill people, guns do. The FBI has interviewed all the firearms recovered from the SUV and has questioned each of the four for a motive why they did it. One of the long rifles asked for a lawyer, the others are not cooperating. All four remain in custody.

[Bill Tozer]

Nothing to see here gentlemen and lady. It's just "unknown" so put your tin foil hats back behind the bong and go watch some reality tv shows.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2015/12/middle-eastern-men-arrested-near-mexican-border-with-steel-cylinders/

[Bill Tozer]

Hey, some Pakistanis are offering a solution. Finally, a voice of reason. Jon and his Peter will not like this, or maybe they will!

"President Obama simply does not embrace reality," said Farahnez Ispahani, a former member of the Pakistani Parliament and author of an upcoming book on Pakistan's religious minorities

http://www.sltrib.com/home/3267795-155/own-it-terrorism-is-an

[Patricia Smith]

Now you will have a whole new issue to combat. Gavin Newsom is supporting a voter's initiative on gun restrictions. I think urban voters will pass this initiative and it will become law since it will bypass congressmen that have been bought off by the NRA.

Guess what? I'm on your side because one thing I've learned is that prohibition doesn't work. Ban guns and there will still be millions of them floating around. Trying to round up existing guns would be the same as trying to round up every illegal aliens to deport - it's not going to happen.

[Bill Tozer]

Hello Patricia. We here in the Golden State have the strictest gun control laws this side of France, and they used automatic weapon in Paris.
The only thing left is confiscation. Wonder how that will stop Islamic Extreme Radical Terrorism on US soil? Better not post here Patty or Jeffy will get all contorted like a New York pretzel..must think of others.

Favorite quote (2 days ago). "President Obama's call for stricter gun control while the shooters were still at large was the wrong time for Obama to implore law abiding citizens to surrender their self protection." Or close to that from memory. Principles above politics.
As all issues we have discussed here, we have found it an exercise in futility to legislate morally. What is overlooked is it is also an exercise in futility to legislate evil

[Bill Tozer]

Patricia Smith: Opps, that is legislate morality. But, you know what I meant, didn't ya? I bet you did.

[Todd Juvinall]

Gavin Newsome has armed security. Will he give that up?

The result of a vote will be tossed out bu the courts if it conflicts with the Second Amendment. Just as Jerry Brown while AG here refused to defend Prop 8, my guess is Camel Harris will vigorously defend any gun control initiative that makes it.

[George Rebane]

Searching this comment stream for a cogent discussion about taqiya yields naught but the roar of crickets. That is the crux of the domestic terror problem; gun control is not. Yet the usually vigorous penmen and women of our readership have nothing to say about it, but dance the sidestep shuffle around the gun control barn one more time. Easy money, is it?

[Don Bessee]

It was funny to watch Gavin pivot from weed to gun control in support of his gubernatorial ambitions, obviously poll driven and very consistent for him. I was at an LE PAC meeting and the NRA lobbyhist was sharing some interesting facts about Gavins proposition. When people find out the details it will be in trouble. Lots of people in the DEM camp are questioning the wisdom of mobilizing the NRA money and members in CA this election cycle.

[Account Deleted]

from P Smith:
"...since it will bypass congressmen that have been bought off by the NRA."
That would have to be a majority of them.
Please name them, Patricia.
Crickets.
As to the problem of why we, as a society, can't seem to take any sort of serious steps to defend ourselves against those who openly call for our destruction and act on that call - well...
First of all, almost everyone in political power has full time armed body guards. They personally feel no threat.
We have a president who is doing his best to bring about more violence and terror in this country.
Then we have hand-wringing lefties that feel we deserve to be visited by terrorism.
There are a lot of folks that realize their personal odds of being directly affected by terrorism are slim to none, so they don't really care.
The more this stuff continues, the farther apart this nation splits on what to do. We are not united in our view of the problem - how can we unite on a cure?

[George Rebane]

ScottO 805am - Agreed. These times when the war between civilization becomes such a clear and present danger, I cannot help but wonder about how far "apart this nations splits" not only on what to do about Islamic terrorism, but really what to do about anything, anything at all.

[Account Deleted]

Walt at 10:00 - total comedy.
Our border with Mexico is pretty much wide open and Brown is blaming other states?
Gavin N has the solution. Criminalize thousands of otherwise peaceful law-abiding citizens and all will be well.
Terrorists are known to carefully follow the law.
They'll be reduced to using nerf guns in their next attack.

[Walt]

Now here is something not so comical.
http://dailycaller.com/2015/12/06/ny-daily-news-san-bernardino-victim-deserved-it-for-being-conservative/

OH Yaaa.."he had it coming"...
"“Make no mistake, as disgusting and deservedly dead as the hate-filled fanatical Muslim killers were, Thalasinos was also a hate-filled bigot,” she writes.

And what were Thalasinos’ crimes, according to Stasi? Being an “anti-government, anti-Islam, pro-NRA, rabidly anti-Planned Parenthood kinda guy” who liked Ann Coulter, disliked Iran"

Yup LIBS think they have the high ground.

[George Rebane]

Walt 1110am - Unbelievable. How long has Stasi been spewing that kind of hate and logic? She would march us to the wall in a heartbeat. I wonder if any progressives have denounced commentaries.

[fish]

Posted by: George Rebane | 06 December 2015 at 11:47 AM

Is anybody else enjoying the irony of the authors name?

[George Rebane]

fish 1153am - I had a snarky one-liner ready for that, but decided against it. But the Lord do work in mysterious ways ;-)

[fish]

Posted by: George Rebane | 06 December 2015 at 11:57 AM

I know you try to take the high road most days but you should indulge those "other" impulses on occasion!

[Gregory]

Here's a snippet for the folks behind the. corpulent curtain convinced the settled law on the second is a modern mistake to be reversed:

"Nor can Congress deny to the people the right to keep and bear arms, nor the right to trial by jury, nor compel any one to be a witness against himself in a criminal proceeding."

Dred Scott v. Sanford, 1857

Yes, dear friends, part of the reasoning of the slavers on the SCOTUS of 1857 was that if slaves found freedom they could not be barred from owning and carrying guns, could demand proper jury trials and have the right to remain silent. That the Democrats just could not abide, and the Civil War was a result.

US v Miller in the '30's is taken as a collective right establishment but those who rely on that have ignored at least two issues ... they didn't hold arms had to be for use in a militia, only that they had to be of a type usable in a militia, and that Miller's attorney had not established his sawed-off shotgun was appropriate for such a militia. The other ignored point is there were no attorneys arguing the Miller side to the SCOTUS because by then Miller had in fact been murdered by the folks he'd been worried about enough to have a sawed-off and wasn't around to hire counsel.

In short, US v Miller is a morally bankrupt precedent, the very definition of one-sided... but it is clear on one point... guns usable in a well-regulated militia like those evil assault styled magazine fed semi-automatic rifles are among those that qualify under the 2nd.

If Jeff wants a civil discussion of this in his sandbox, all he has to do is pledge to not bar my comments or to edit them until he gets so tired of losing that he again throws me off his island.

[fish]

Posted by: Gregory | 06 December 2015 at 12:37 PM

If Jeff wants a civil discussion of this in his sandbox.....

If you had just led with this you could have saved yourself quite a lot of typing. He doesn't.

(not that I don't appreciate the historical information. I wonder how many of the cat toys over there know that there was no defense presented in Miller?)

[fish]

jeffpelline says: December 6, 2015 at 1:12 pm

This is a hoot! In reading a thread on Rebane’s blog, “fish” and Gregory think they are “civil.” I think Ben was being generous in his assessment. Ditto for “fish.”

The question wasn't if we could be civil (Greg probably can....me not so much), the question was if you were interested in being civil during a discussion of a current issue in your catbox.

I think Greg now has his answer.