Does Trump's Advocacy of Torture Disqualify Him From the Presidency?

[This is an invited post by my longtime friend and colleague Dr Wayne Hullett that expands on his comment under the 16feb16 Sandbox.  gjr]

Wayne Hullett

"Civilization is hideously fragile... there’s not much between us and the Horrors underneath, just about a coat of varnish." - C.P. Snow

"Civilization: a thin veneer over barbarianism." - John M. Shanahan, The Most Brilliant Thoughts of All Time (In Two Lines or Less)

Modern humans have been on the earth for around 200,000 years, yet it is only within the last 0.1% of that time (200 years or so) that western civilization, at least, has mostly eliminated torture, thus demonstrating that a civilized society can exist without this barbaric practice. With us as an example, and with the rest of the world gradually becoming modernized, there is reasonable hope that it will eventually follow suit.

Donald Trump's statement advocating torture puts him in favor of erasing this hard won gain on the long climb to civilization by legitimizing torture as a matter of national policy. He would admit (and in fact he has already publicly admitted) to the world that he believes that the most powerful nation on earth cannot exist without the use of torture.

I do not expect western civilization's forbearance of this practice to significantly influence the immediate actions of our enemies whose barbarism is the very reason that they are enemies, except that if we use torture, our enemies will use that fact to justify their use of that terrible practice and will likely redouble their efforts. If the US legitimizes torture, I think that a "torture arms race" will ensue - with countries researching ways to inflict the maximum pain possible on their hapless victims, and with accompanying medical research on how to keep them alive in order to feel the pain for as long as possible. Captured Americans will be subject to hideous tortures. Squads will be sent out to try to capture servicemen and women for the express purpose of torturing them, possibly even shown on TV. Would you want your son or grandson to be in that situation? Or your daughter or granddaughter, as more females go into combat roles?

I can even envision civilian citizens (working on highly classified projects, for example) being kidnapped off the streets and out of their homes and spirited out of the country for torture to extract classified information. What if one of these targets had a name similar to yours, and a van pulls up in front of your house at 3:00 AM and you and your loved ones are taken by mistake? How far down the slippery slope is torturing children in front of their parents in order to extract information from the parents. And what if you did not have the information sought?

While I do not deny that torture still happens, it is deplorable, it is illegal, and it is wrong. Trump's approach is a giant step backward for a species that is still striving to become civilized. Even if he changes his mind, the damage is already done. The world already sees him as a torturer. The only way for us as citizens to override that perception, redeem ourselves in the eyes of the world and avoid backsliding into barbarism is to soundly defeat his bid for the presidency. For my part, I would rather have another four years of gridlock than see our country go down his terrible path.

Comments

[Gregory]

The "hideous torture" Trump apparently flapped his gums over was waterboarding, so horrible it has been used on US troops in training and when it was being used in the "enhanced interrogation techniques" of the time, it wasn't considered torture, just awfully bloody close. No actual danger, no physical damage. I accept McCain's denouncement of it as torture but it ain't something that would fuel a "torture race" from foes who are already performing ritual beheadings of kids caught listening to Lady Gaga or burning military captives alive despite the risk of having Sec'y of State Kerry talking at them for it.

This was just Trump throwing raw meat to his adoring fans and this piece strikes me as much ado about not very much,

In California, it's likely that the risk of any GOP candidate getting even one Electoral College vote is vanishingly small anyway. This election will probably be about the Supreme Court more than it is about Bernie, Hillary, the Donald, Ted, Marco, Ben or John... with Scalia now in the ground that should start sinking in. Dems are already salivating over Citizens United, DC v. Heller and all their other rallying cries.

Personally, I think the most interesting item regarding the NV Dem caucuses was the turnout... 1/3 down from the last time. Hillary won but her events weren't well attended and there was little enthusiasm. Not a promising harbinger for November, if you're Dem.

[Brad Croul]

I imagine Trump would be a big proponent of the executive order since all his big talk and ideas would otherwise have to be approved by the next do-nothing Congress. All the candidates are talking tough on all the hot button issues but they are all starting to parrot each other's talking points - and it is all just a bunch of hot air at this point.

[Bill Tozer]

Bernie took the north part of the state, Hillary the south. It did surprise me that Bernie took those few scattered souls in the boonies along America's Loneliness Highway. Figured the ranchers would go for a real Democrat, but maybe they are quietly giving Hillary the finger as well.
Under the category of you cannot believe everything you read, I read not one but two news feeds that had Hillary at 5k and change ballots cast in her favor and Bernie had 5k as well (rounded off of course) in NV. Now, there were 80,0000 that were registered to vote, so each candidate receiving under 6k just does not seem right. If that was accurate, then all that hype was over 11,000 votes? Nah, that has to be wrong. I don't really care in the grand scheme of things......turn out for Dems was again lower than 2008, 3 out of 3. Republicans continue to smash turnout (primary) records, 3 out of 3.
In Iowa, only 18% of the young voters (who voted for the Bern like around 90% in favor) actually turned out and voted. Other stats showed only 24% (or a few points less) of the young Bernie Maniacs bothered to show up to vote in NH. Ah, you can't believe everything you read........
If the turnout for the Dems keeps dropping, does that mean Obama represents the thousands upon thousands that did not vote?

[Bill Tozer]

Ah, it's all good.

https://www.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.217983685002343.55586.217926015008110/797904697010236/?type=3&theater

[Gregory]

Brad C, If you want a do-something Congress, elect a congress that's the same party as the President. The last time we had that, Congress rammed Obamacare through, and left-liberal Justices and judges sailed through the Senate. Divided government is, by design, intended to be do-nothing unless a something is desired across party lines.

Do-nothing is better than do-the-wrong-thing. We continue to have a Republic with three branches of government there to keep each other from getting uppity.

[George Rebane]

Getting back to the subject of this post. For the US to adopt a public policy on torture, don't we first need to define what torture is (and isn't)? The boundary between torture and, say, bodily discomfort is not widely shared, most certainly not among different cultures, and even rarely within a culture. To my knowledge the US has not general definition of torture and tries to get by with the proscriptions of specific acts.

[Todd Juvinall]

I find it fascinating that we are told by Obama etal and even McCain etal, that we have to set a example for the planet's people about things like torture. If we don't do the "right" thing, they won't like us. Well they still hate is (but want our money). So it seems like BS to me. We should do whatever it takes to make sure these creatures don't get a nuke etc.

[George Rebane]

re ToddJ's 201pm - Is there any historical evidence that a tyranny's practice of torture was ever deterred by an example set by a more noble government/state?

[Gregory]

George, wherever the line is between being harsh and being torture, waterboarding is pretty close to it.

Another view... I recall a few years ago (maybe one decade, maybe two), Germany had a situation where some sick asshole had buried a child alive in a box with a limited air supply and was refusing to say where she was. A German policeman took it upon himself to don brass knuckles and beat the prick up to the point where he divulged the location. Was that illegal? Yes. Was it torture? Probably. What should be done in a situation like that? My thought is you take them to criminal court and let a jury decide without the usual instruction against nullification. If those facts were as I remember, I'd vote not guilty by reason it was the right thing to do in that situation but that can be a slippery slope.

[Todd Juvinall]

George Rebane | 22 February 2016 at 02:23 PM

Don't know and I don't care. If a cretin has a nuke and we have to get the info from another cretin, my guess is every country will fry his privates to get the info.

[Gregory]

I missed this from Todd:
"If we don't do the "right" thing, they won't like us."

No Todd, it's if we don't do the right thing, "we" won't like us. It's about our self respect as a nation of laws, and if a President or some Sergeant thinks brass knuckles are needed in some 5 sigma situation, they'd best do it quietly and in secret because there could be hell to pay if word gets out.

[Brad Croul]

I think Greg had it right in his first post. Trump is playing to his base with his torture (and other) comments. It does not make him un-electable to his fan base, but if he ends up with the nomination, I think he could lose to Hillary (or even Sanders) as independents look for a more reasonable candidate. Then again, Trump could be a good deal maker and government might actually make some progress on the issues facing the country these days.

[Todd Juvinall]

Sorry, I think you would do it if yur daughter or son were at risk. We already have the high ground pn planet earth and the rest of the planet needs to adjust. My self esteem as a American is just fine. Our standards are as shaky as a Uber driver in Michigan at aany given moment.

[Jon]

"We already have the high ground pn planet earth and the rest of the planet needs to adjust."

LOL. Oh yeah. Right in line, YES SIR USA! Governments will be cowering with the thought of a real estate/golf course developer in charge.

[Bill Tozer]

Hey Tubbie Baby: Take it to the house. Mark the tape. Sanders will be drier than a popcorn fart and, like dust, will be Gone with the Wind within 3 weeks. Boy, he looks so good on paper.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-goodman/bernie-sanders-will-becom_b_9289066.html?

And you believe everything you read, right!

[Bill Tozer]

When Hillary was asked a question concerning Trump, this was her response.

http://freebeacon.com/politics/supercut-hillary-clinton-cant-stop-coughing/

[Jon]

Now back to the rising tides of planet earth, a topic the GOP is unaware of.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/23/science/sea-level-rise-global-warming-climate-change.html

[Bill Tozer]

Jon @ 7:31. Great news you laid out there. Each day brings me closer to having beach front property and having some CA qSanctuary Cities underwater. It couldn't happen to a nicer group of people. Hip, hip, hooray.!!

In news addressing the topic of the post: hey even more great news tonight.

https://www.facebook.com/newenglandfortrump/photos/a.1652717498335058.1073741829.1651084701831671/1676580015948806/?type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/DonaldTrump4President/photos/a.135704630102885.1073741829.133961323610549/255651361441544/?type=3&theater

[Jon]

You prefer the Wash Post take on this? 2800 years boys. Top notch study.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2016/02/22/seas-are-now-rising-faster-than-they-have-in-2800-years-scientists-say

[Todd Juvinall]

Lake front here. Love it.

[Jon]

and a great Jeffrey Toobin piece on the very deceased Scalia. Perfect summary.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/02/29/antonin-scalia-looking-backward

[Don Bessee]

2800 years is a speck of dust on the time line of the earth. So the 'jonjon' please tell the class the latitude and longitude limits of the last ice age and its time of retraction north. A reference to well known current cities will get you half credit. For extra credit tell us how many cycles like this the earth has experienced. ;-)

[Jon]

I think I will go with a the conclusions and summary of an excellent climate science study over some blog commentary of some unknown, right wing local yocal. But thanks anyway for the college try.:)

[fish]

2800 years....? Good thing you picked Truckee .....eh Steve?!

[fish]

"......and a great Jeffrey Toobin piece on the very deceased Scalia. Perfect summary."

Toobin.....? He still screwing Jeff Greenfields kid?!? There's your perfect summary.

.....you wacky leftys.....gotta count the silverware.....and condoms apparently ....when they drop by!!

[Bill Tozer]

Now, I get it. The topic is Trump's references to water boarding and Jon keeps trying to bring up Global Cooling and Sacilia. Wrong thread, duh. Watching him flail is certainly torture to this reader. My, how far the mightily have fallen, Capped Crusader.
To be accurate, Trump said yes to water boarding and "a whole lot worse." Just let that sink in while the the difference between a socialist and a Democrat causes an uncontrollable coughing fit.
Now I really get it. We will never see snow again due to robot caused Worldwide Big Honking Kahuna Global Burning. No water means no aqua boarding. Did I get it right, did I Jon? Oh, what do I win? If it's another wok, keep it. Can't give those things away.

Well, never say never so Jon just might be right. 10 million fans can't be wrong. Most of those who really believe in AGW are found in the recesses of our campuses. Plus they are Bernie supports, no doubt about it. Look what Climate Change is doing to a formerly nice neighborhood. The destruction is already upon us.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3458626/Police-arrested-41-people-three-day-college-house-party-leads-175-000-property-CONDEMNED.html

Jon, Jon, Jon. Whatever will we do with you?

https://www.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.217983685002343.55586.217926015008110/798271626973543/?type=3&theater

Darn, what was the topic of this post? Oh yeah, The Donald. Everything is about the Donald....er...the Donald and my gal.

http://patriotpost.us/posts/40774

Back to more torture. Carry on, Jon. I am really into S&M tonight. Pretty please.

[jon smith]

Hey Besee from the other jon.

Not so long ago you suggested that your bible "proved" the earth was around 6,000 years old. What is this about 2,800 years being a "speck of dust in time." Do you believe what you believe or do you play fancy footwork with your "beliefs" to make a point? You have no core values, only those which benefit your argument of the day.

[Don Bessee]

'jon' smith- WTF are you talking about? Be so kind to enlighten us with the date, thread and time of your claim and on which site I supposedly made such a comment. What I see is the usual blah blah blah blah when a simple factual inquiry elicits those kinds of responses. You don't want to talk about the natural cycle of the earth and the Suns influence, especially in the periods where man could not have possible had any impact on that cycle in anyway. I know, uncomfortable truths are deflected by; I will listen to the 97%, who are not really 97%. The 'jons' both suffer from rhetorical dysfunction. I hear there is a pill for that now! ;-)

[Bill Tozer]

Oh Don, some Christians believe that the Earth is 6,000 years old based on the generations since Adam and Eve. You have been slammed because you are a Christian, apparently. Or opposed to smoking wacky tobaccy. Well, grab the Good Book and swing it upside their heads. Now, if you were a Koran thumper clinging to your curved knives and your sword, then it would be hunky-dory. Speaking solely of the idiot artist formerly known as Jon. Don't know how Mr. jon smith feels about Koran thumpers.

6,000 years or a gazillion years? Numbers do matter. Read them and weep.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/02/sheriff-joe-arpaio-speaks-at-trump-rally-in-vegas/

You can feel the water boarding coming to a Democrat near you.

[Don Bessee]

Yes Bill, they do not like getting a little old testament on their ass or upside their head. In the real world you need to bring some to the scum bags who beat woman, kids and animals. They have not liked what I have brought to them in protecting victims for sure.
Lots of years of having the crazies say such nonsense to change the subject. Justice Scalia was eloquent in making it clear you can have faith and still have an educated and intelligent view of the realities of our world.
This whole thing about the growers hiding behind real sick people like the poor unfortunate kids who have horrible mortality tables is disgusting. The real truth is that my organization SAM (smart approaches to marijuana) has been involved in the science of crafting law to enable assistance to these poor kids. It was SAM last year that got the DEA and FDA to change testing and trial rules without changing the schedule 1 of pot to enable live trials. The changes that SAM achieved have resulted in the number of live trials in the US growing to 93 live trials. That is where we need to direct these unfortunate families and their kids. These poor kids are few and far between and only total a few thousand in the whole country. You do not make law for tens of millions based on a few unfortunate extreme cases.
Nationally we craft these programs and exceptions on a State level with the cooperation of public health, medical experts and pharmacological advisory boards. NOT on a County or City level. We just got away from a patchwork of 215 craziness.
I was just involved in a National conversation on this in support of another State crafting rational programs. Programs that would be suspended when the pure CBD products like Epodiolex get approved for general public use.
Enough of home chemistry and crock pot concoctions.

[Brad Croul]

"Siri, Open up! This is the FBI!"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that."
"Why not?"
"The Constitution sometimes insulates the criminality of a few in order to protect the privacy of us all."
"What pointy-headed liberal said that?"
"Justice Anton Scalia."
- Toon Talk

[George Rebane]

BradC 850am - It is clear that Toon Talk is out of touch with the tenets of conservatism. There is nothing contradictory with that dialogue from a conservetarian perspective. We naturally tolerate relatively small risks to provide for the greater benefit - e.g. gun rights, highway landscaping, eating fatty foods, playground swings, ... . The Right has no problem with such societal risks; it is the Left that has been removing them in the name of public good as the central planners take more and more control of our lives. Can you make a list of the grandfathered things that today would be illegal/proscribed/regulated by liberals - start with aspirin.

[Brad Croul]

Abortion? Marijuana? - oh, wait those are risky things the conservatives want to control.

[George Rebane]

BradC 1048am - Good counter Mr Croul, but no cigar, for risk has little to do with these issues. Conservatives, while condoning subsidized contraception, don't want government (i.e. the rest of us) to pay for abortions for several reasons that have been much aired in these pages. Otherwise go for it, and suffer the licentious and irresponsible behavior facile abortions have promoted. Were a way found where the rest of us don't have to pay for the unwanted offspring and their impact on minorities' quality of life, then conservatives would not care.

Most conservatives are concerned about MJ's social impact the same way they think about alcohol and other mind bending substances. And these thoughts are shared by liberals, so they cannot be assigned solely to the Right corner. MJ will become legal in this country, and will no doubt be treated the same way as the placement of distilleries, liquor stores, and bars are currently regulated. Perhaps this should be explored as a surviving vestige of Right/Left common ground.

[Gregory]

My kid found himself in Washington DC with friend looking for something interesting and not touristy to do a few months ago, and they ended up at a SCOTUS hearing. He thought it an E ticket ride, history in the making. Decision has been released... Scalia's last majority opinion.

[Gregory]

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/15pdf/14-449_9o7d.pdf

[Lucas Fernandez]

This article is written based on several premise's the author provides no evidence to support. The fact that one countries use of torture would open up an "arms race" is a slippery slope, with little past evidence. He then leaps to kidnapping citizens from their homes across the country as though their is a possibility of this becoming a widespread practice, this is patently absurd. If we hit that point much more has gone wrong and this country is no longer a super power. America has used the "torture" in question in the past without provoking these hyperbolic consequences. Torture will continue to pop its admittedly ugly head whenever people in conflict get sufficiently desperate, or until technology allows us to bypass consciousness to extract information. This will come sooner than whenever idealistic definition of civilization comes to pass.

[Lucas Fernandez]

Ignore errors in my previous comment, I did not proofread.