Calexit and the Great Divide

Not all liberals are stupid; many of them just have bad luck when they try to think.

George Rebane

[An edited and 'liberally' criticized version of this post was published (here) in the 4feb17 issue of The Union.  I answer my critics here.]

Well, it’s now official - multi-kulti does not work.  There are limits to cultural differences that even progressives have come to understand.  It wasn’t that long ago when anyone suggesting our Great Divide is real was castigated by the Left, and accused of being everything from a racist to a traitor.  Even the comment streams of these pages are witness to such vitriol from locals of a socialist bent.

However President Trump’s victory has suddenly changed all that.  As the former ‘Never Trump!’ crowd recovers from its apoplectic shock (similar to PTSD) and reorganizes into legions of ‘Trump Trashers’, many of their leading lights are rethinking the entire idea of the American republic.  And California, of course, is the mother temple of all such advanced collectivist thought.

Former notions of the Great Divide describe a reconfigured 21^st century US with new states calved off existing ones to create homes for more like-minded Americans to continue the Great Experiment within a more diverse set of the Framers’ laboratories of liberty and democracy. The current ‘State of Jefferson’ movement to create Northern California is an example of this.  (see also RR's Great Divide)

More radical ideas describe the country divided into a confederacy of culturally cohesive states that would still be under one federal government with a revised or redrawn constitution.  Nevertheless all of these approaches to more responsive governance have retained a United States of America.  We all would still be Americans.

But today the globalist oriented socialists have come to conclude that there really exist irreconcilable cultural differences that reach down into the roots of a peoples’ fundamental ideology of how society should and actually can work.  This Trump-induced epiphany is in some sense also a unifying factor, since the Right has held this belief for decades.  Both sides now share a fundamental belief that may serve as a stake in the ground from which to search for a less drastic longer term solution than secession.

However, the shock of this realization by the Left is still unresolved.  In California it immediately precipitated the most violent of responses – if they really can’t play by our rules, we’ll take our ball and leave.  Such pre-Trumpian thoughts were anathema in the glorious Age of Obama that promised a palpable socialism in our time.  And that promise would have been carried to a more glorious fruition by none other than President Clinton II; even comrades Bernie and Liz promised this.  Then in November their new world order collapsed.  (more here and here)

Cultural cohesion is achieved through that wondrous social process called assimilation.  Into different populations newcomers assimilate at different rates which depend on what we may view as ‘assimilation resources’ already possessed by the welcoming population.  These resources include things such as available land area, tolerant religion, civil liberties, racial/ethnic inclusivity, facile language, …, and, of course, a fundamental concept of governance that embodies a specific notion of ‘common good’ based somewhere between a person as a free individual or a compliant member of the dominant class.

Thanks to a number of collaborating factors, arriving Europeans found a continent on which they then founded a nation that had ample resources for assimilating peoples that were more or less similar to then resident Americans.  Our form of government and the established common culture was compellingly inviting, enough so to rapidly make new Americans out of recently arrived immigrants who would cheerfully practice the common culture in the public forum, and still were free to privately practice their cherished traditions from lands left behind.

But humans are a species with a surprisingly wide range of social values, ethics, worldviews, and fundamental cosmologies (e.g. religions).  It was realized long ago that not all peoples will assimilate; that all will not compatibly mix no matter how liberal the welcoming society.  The result of such unfortunate unions always led to subjugation, armed conflict, and/or separation.  In this vein human history also includes the enthusiastic practice of genocide by dominant cultures on weaker neighbors considered irredeemably different.

Today in California there is a growing cohort of leftwingers who have evaluated our nation’s socio-political terrain, and conclude themselves to be irredeemably different from the rest of the country.  They have come to this conclusion presumably because they see no possibility of victory in the arena of ideas. And so they seek the only solution available through peaceable secession to establish a new sovereign nation-state set on the path to a global order wherein socialism will reign ascendant – the Socialist Peoples Republic of California.

Comments

[Walt]

I wonder what the new tax rate will be? say,,,, 70%? Your power bill close to a grand a month?
This half baked idea of becoming it's own nation will fall apart as the ramifications become obvious.(I bloody hope)

[Account Deleted]

This will be a great show -
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2017/01/27/california-could-cut-off-feds-in-response-to-trump-threats/
Willie Brown might want to talk to some folks in Bonners Ferry about how his great idea would end up.
Furthermore, this sudden 'libertarian' attitude might just catch on with Californians in general.
"Uh, governor, our state tax revenues are down 80%. The people apparently took Willie's advice."

[Bill Tozer]

Maybe they will join NATO.

[Bill Tozer]

"But today the globalist oriented socialists have come to conclude that there really exist irreconcilable cultural differences that reach down into the roots of a peoples’ fundamental ideology of how society should and actually can work."

Irreconcilable differences? Like no fault divorce? Well, you can't blame them for wanting to segregate themselves for all those Deplorables out there. Sounds more like lib flight to me. A Calexit would Make America Fun Again.

[ScenesFromTheApocalypse]

I suppose that everyone has seen these maps.

http://www.vividmaps.com/2016/12/trumpland-and-clinton-archipelago.html

[Russ]

John Fund at National Review

Of course, it’s unlikely that California will ever be divided. It’s even more unlikely that it would cut its ties to the rest of the nation and become a separate country. But the debate on both ideas is healthy. To what extent should we let arbitrary political boundaries established many decades ago curb our imagination and prevent us from creative solutions to our problems?

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/444384/california-secession-bad-idea-division-two-states-better-idea

[Russ]

Should California, Oregon and Washington join Canada? #Calexit talk envelops West Coast

By Ryan Blethen, Seattle Times.

The #calexit movement, formed in response to Donald Trump winning the presidential election, has enveloped California’s West Coast neighbors and spiritual counterparts, Washington and Oregon. The three Pacific Coast states overwhelmingly voted for Hillary Clinton. She received 55 percent of the vote in Washington, 62 percent in California and 52 percent in Oregon.

Is this crazy talk? Probably. But residents of the Best Coast have a lot in common with our northern neighbors. The three states have long been working with British Columbia to combat climate change. All three new potential provinces have legalized cannabis, which Canada is moving toward. Don’t forget Canada’s universal health care. We love health care for all here on the coast.

Interesting graphic at this link:

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/should-california-oregon-and-washington-join-canada-calexit-talk-envelops-west-coast/

Just when I was thinking of moving to Oregon if Calexit became a reality. Maybe Idaho would be a better choice.

[Russ]

QUOTE OF THE DAY FROM POLITICO: "San Francisco had better buckle up, because we are in for one rough ride with President Trump. To a businessman like Trump, money is both a tool and a weapon. He has no problem with using federal funding for either purpose. No matter how loudly local and state politicians scream and threaten court actions as he picks his fights, Trump will have the upper hand. Thanks to our reliance on federal funds for AIDS care, homelessness relief, Muni, housing and countless other programs - as a county as well as a city - San Francisco is extremely vulnerable." -- former SF Mayor Willie Brown in SF Chronicle: http://bit.ly/2k6yl03

[BradC]

Just change the names and you have the reasons behind, and the pros and cons, that have surrounded the SOJ 'cessation' debates .

Taxation without representation, SOJers say? What about elections without representation? The electoral college needs to go. We have the Internet now. If we can pay our taxes, register our vehicles, do our banking, and make purchases online - we can vote online.

Get rid of the electoral college! Use our school and public library computer as voting booths. There are plenty of computers around.

[Walt]

At Russ's 7:24..
I like the map of that Ca. split.
Yup, LIB land on the West side of the San Andreas fault.
Now if LIBS do get their own little nation, you can bet on day two the first thing they would do is beg for aid from the U.S.of A. like a fourth world nation.

[George Rebane]

BradC 858am - Perhaps you'd like to review a little history on the 'progress' and fate of direct democracies.

[Bill Tozer]

Russ @ 7:24 & Walt.

There is one little assumption of the West Coast map. There had been a movement for Eastern Oregon and Eastern Washington to join with Northetn Idaho and Western Montana to form the State of Lincoln. This has been going on for decades.

Residents of those areas have been shaking their heads for years and telling California jokes, as well as most of the nation. Best not to tell anyone you are from California. Oh, they just cannot believe the screwball ideas that come out of CA. Now, they see the same crazy demented ideas coming out of Seattle and Portland. They are both embarrassed and dumbfounded.

I fell sorry mostly for Oregon. They only have one blue county and that county rules the state. The western part of WA taxes the Eastern part to pay for Seattle's sports complexes.

Let CA go! Let the laughingstock of the nation go! Or least let CA split into two states. We have nothing in common with the values of Oakland, LA, or the naked bus riders in Frisco. Let them have their liberal abomination. Let them leave and wish them well.

[Ed Grinder]

To paraphrase George's introductory comment.

Not all conservatives are stupid, just most of them.

[Todd Juvinall]

Looks like Trump's immigration extreme vetting has caused the left on the coasts to go apoplectic. And now we hear that the "protestors" are paid by George Soros. So what is the truth? It seems to me Trump told everyone he would institute a travel ban to give authorities the time to determine if people coming from countries deemed as terrorist states to be vetted. I would suggest Americans are for this but the lamestream media is not? The lamestreams think this will damage Trump but I doubt it.

Trump is modifying the EO to get those that are legal through the system quicker. Better to be careful don't you think?

So this all means to me the attempts by the left to try and intimidate the Republicans in Congress. Hopefully they know their constituents are for this attempt to protect America.

America has the right and the obligation to protect its citizens. These bans have been used many times over the years. We need to be careful and protect our borders from terrorists.

[George Rebane]

EdG 955am - Mr Grinder, given what they think of each other, would it not be of benefit to both today's liberals and conservatives to live in jurisdictions where they could exercise the full measure of their respective stupidities? Or would you rather that one side imposes its will on the other?

[Ed Grinder]

Isolationism is not the answer, George, tolerance is. Unless one purchases their own private island, they will have to deal with other people and beliefs. Isolation breeds contempt and prejudice based on ignorance of other cultures. You, of course, could always move from CA to some other more conservative state. In democratic societies the minority viewpoint will always be subservient to the dominant viewpoint, except in the case as we have now, where the president was put in office by 25% of the voting eligible adults, hardly a mandate for the extreme policies that are being enacted. What we have is the tyranny of a minority whose values do not reflect those of most Americans. That is due to the flaw in our system, the electoral college, which was formed for just that reason.. to allow minority control and preserve power for the monied elite.

[Don Bessee]

There sure seemed to be most of the 'monied elite' on madam liar liar pantsuits on fires team that lost. ;-)

[George Rebane]

EdG 1109am - You do speak in extremes - "isolationism" and implying the US is intolerant. America is the most un-isolated, tolerant, and beneficent country that the world has ever seen. And your interpretation of Trump's victory (what percentage would Hillary have received?) and view of our Constitution clearly underlines why we are a terminally divided nation. I presume you support Calexit.

[Bill Tozer]

No one has taken Calexit seriously. Issues such as printing new currency and the value of the new Republic's dollar on the exchange markets have not even been raised. Yet, it is a great topic to discuss in concept without digging into those unpleasant eye glazing over details.

I like the question posed. If we hate each others' guts this much, where to we go from here? I am old enough to remember the term White Flight when it was used weekly (if not more frequently) for a few years. Watts in the 1930's was a very nice upscale neighborhood, according to an old friend whose Polish grandparents immigrated there and where his father spent his youth. Pasadena was the "old money" of LA, , Beverly Hills was the "new money town". .Pasadena experienced white flight while Beverly Hills did not. But we are not talking finances or race here. We are talking Calexit.

I see the new flight today. Sure, anybody that starts getting ahead packs up the family and moves a bit farther out of the city....for less crime, better schools, and a little elbow room. Conversely, anyone who is single or plans on starting a small family and wants to get ahead moves closer to the urban jungles. Still, that is not what Calexit is about.

But now, I see a different kind of flight. A flight to where birds of the culture feather flock together. The melting pot still exists for now, but the new flight is to or away from those who share a certain worldview. Statism vs Don't Tread on Me classical liberalism for lack of better terms.

With all that yapping aside and not touching on the Cultural Wars, I have yet to read one article on Calexit begging CA to stay. Not one sentence saying "Don't do it, we need you, we want you!". Not one. Why is that?

[ScenesFromTheApocalypse]

VDH on the election (Nov. 30, 2016). Not bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7pQdqPzozc

[Ed Grinder]

Don 11:24 -- perhaps you haven't noticed that trump has stacked his cabinet with billionaires and multi-millionaires many from Goldman-Sacs.. you know .. those people whose greed was directly responsible for the crash and whom the taxpayers had to bail out. You know those same guys who screwed hundreds of thousands of homeowners and other little people. If trump and co. aren't the rich elite (even though they claim otherwise and the gullible believe them) than who is?

George: " America is the most un-isolated, tolerant, and beneficent country that the world has ever seen." Yes and it sounds ("would it not be of benefit to both today's liberals and conservatives to live in jurisdictions where they could exercise the full measure of their respective stupidities?") like you would prefer something different, like enclaves and ghettos of political ideology. What would that solve other than to perpetuate the current divisions? The planet's future and humanity as well, lies in finding consensus and moving forward not further division. The problem is finding consensus needs trust and truth, something horribly lacking in today's atmosphere of "alternate facts" as Kellyann Conway like to call lies.

[Don Bessee]

I would happily take accomplished business people over hack politicians. Goldman sachs employees were predominantly in the madam liar liar pantsuits on fire camp based on contributions. Just because someone once worked there does not obviate their eligibility for government service. Haters gonna hate. ;-)

[BradC]

Goldman Sachs sucks!

[Don Bessee]

Unless you were a Clinton BC. ;-)

[Walt]

Hummmm.... ? where are our LIBS on this? Strangely quiet. A nation to call their vary own, you would think they would be singing the praises of the plan. From all the dope they could smoke, to the new gov. paying for everyone's every need. Free health care even.
OH! Not a gun to be found! Then the "green power" that the country would run on. An electric car in every driveway.(by mandate)
Let me guess. The Hollywood elites will be the new law makers.(that should work out GREAT!)

[George Rebane]

EdG 446pm - Well said Mr Grinder. You yourself have discovered why we will not soon find consensus, save for the consensus of the gun. Do we understand that you find, say, Switzerland, Denmark, Estonia, Ireland, New Zealand, ... to be "enclaves and ghettos of political ideology"?

[Account Deleted]

"Isolationism is not the answer, George, tolerance is."
Hmmm - who said isolationism was the answer?
Of course we need to be tolerant.
As long as it's what Mr Grinder thinks we should be tolerant of.
It seems that America was amazingly tolerant of Obama's constant lies.
When were lefty speakers shut out of American universities and colleges?
When did conservatives riot and beat Dems attending Dem rallys?
And once again, I will remind everyone that the crash was caused by the American govt insisting that unqualified buyers be given home loans.
There was plenty of blame to go around once the stupidity got started, but the fed govt instigated the whole thing.
There was no 'need' for anyone to be bailed out. If the crash had just taken it's course, the rebound would have been way quicker and our nation would not be saddled with the current level of debt.

[Ed Grinder]

Don 5:05 Let me rephrase the question: How are billionaires and multi-millionaires from the worlds largest corporations NOT the rich elite? And if these guys are not the rich elite who will mostly benefit from trump's policies, then who are they?

George: Live by the gun, die by the gun.. where/when does it end? How does it end, when the last soldier dies or when the last politician calls off the war. Estonia,etc. I don't understand your reference unless you are implying some cultural similarities. What I am referring to is people who isolate themselves to avoid being uncomfortable with people/ideas that they don't necessarily agree with. Children are not born with hatred for other people in their hearts. They are not born racists. These are all things they are taught. A Palestinian is not born hating Israelis and vice versa. They acquire the hatred based on what they are taught to be true and what they see with their own eyes. It is not until later on in life that people get confused over "alternate facts" they get third or fourth hand off the media.
My point is that without direct exposure to other ideas and people, people can and will form an incorrect viewpoint about others which then is passed on to future generations. Thus we have the centuries old religious wars that still are prevalent in many parts of the world today. It is also a common international cultural norm that all cultures are judged relative to the judges own culture and the more similar a culture is to the judge, the more positive the attitude. We humans just don't like the different strokes of different folks.

Perhaps the solution to the world's discordance is biological. Mutts are more durable and stronger than the purebreds. Those who hole up in enclaves and ghettos, whether those be physical or psychological, will not survive in the long run. The key to survival of a species seems to be adaptability. Did you know that Jewish people suffer from extraordinarily high rates of various highly deadly forms of cancer? Geneticists say this is the direct result of a limited gene pool over the centuries from which to procreate.

[Don Bessee]

Now that's some bloviaton nation there grinder. Is that your porno/stripper name?

[Ed Grinder]

Scott: I never said what I was, nor was not tolerant of. So your comment "As long as it's what Mr Grinder thinks we should be tolerant of." is without merit and has no basis in fact… much like your other statement "When did conservatives riot and beat Dems attending Dem rallys?" You must have missed the multitude of news stories coming out of trump rallies wherein trump supporters attacked peaceful bystanders. This leads me to believe that your other statement, "the American govt insisting that unqualified buyers be given home loans." is probably an alternate fact as well.

[Don Bessee]

GO grinder, go grinder, go grinder! Blue lives matter, do they not? ;-)

[Bob Hobert]

One senses that Grinder is living in self-imposed isolation from free thought himself. On a related note - perhaps if California had its own electoral college the large number of it's geographical districts that now have zero say in government would have some slim hope.

[Account Deleted]

Mr Grinder claims we need to be 'tolerant'. And that solves our political and social problems.
But of course he will not say what we should be tolerant of, as that is the precise problem.
"...wherein trump supporters attacked peaceful bystanders."
Didn't miss a thing, Mr Grinder, they were provocateurs, often paid to stir up trouble. And your response ignores my point.
It is the left in this country that is intolerant of opposing views.
We've circled the tree on this topic many times and the proof is overwhelming.

[Russ]

Idaho is looking better and better every day

SACRAMENTO (CBSLA.com/AP) — California may prohibit local law enforcement from cooperating with federal immigration authorities, creating a border-to-border sanctuary in the nation’s largest state as legislative Democrats ramp up their efforts to battle President Donald Trump’s migration policies.

The legislation is scheduled for its first public hearing Tuesday as the Senate rushes to enact measures that Democratic lawmakers say would protect immigrants from the crackdown that the Republican president has promised.

In 10 years California will become the most northern State of Mexico if we continue to leave the progressive in charge of our future.

[George Rebane]

From Mr Grinder's 945pm I will take a wild guess that he is a man of progressive bent. I base this conclusion on his passionate defense of hills not assaulted - most certainly not in my 805pm. As with many collectivists, he also seems not to know that the cited countries are small and have successful cohesive cultures which do not require the use of force to maintain such as the state mandated 'cultures' of the USSR, Red China, Vietnam, Cuba, and the politically correct cultural chaos growing in our land. Finally, he seems to enjoy their common penchant of knowing what others really mean when they speak or write. For example, the progressive reading my post will interpret my use of 'cohesive culture' as describing a lockstep society which is not the case.

All that is why it is hard for direct democracies to survive for very long. And the larger the nation into which direct democracy is introduced, the faster it reverts to autocracy on the road to tyranny. We must never forget that the mantra of the collectivists is always central planning and control by its elites. It would be interesting to read Mr Grinder's credo.

[BradC]

Czar Trump has created his own gilded plutocracy. His right-hand man is a self-described Leninist. What's not to like?

[fish]

Posted by: BradC | 31 January 2017 at 08:52 AM

Czar Trump has created his own gilded plutocracy. His right-hand man is a self-described Leninist. What's not to like?

The funny part is how you guys managed to lose the election.

[BradC]

Fish, "how you guys managed to lose the election" - The Trumpanzees are more susceptible to AM radio...

[Todd Juvinall]

fish, so true. Even a crazy man like Trump and his minions were smarter than a democrat.

[fish]

Posted by: BradC | 31 January 2017 at 09:44 AM

The Trumpanzees are more susceptible to AM radio...

Well I'd really be worried going forward then Brad.

[Todd Juvinall]

Yes those PBS folks are all about unbiased truth. So BradC, please don't listen to those AM types, they scare your ilk into apoplexy.

[Gregory]

I take it Ed "Organ" Grinder 956 missed the hidden camera expose where paid Clintonista campaign staff described how the Hillary campaign paid operatives to provoke fights.

Much of Organ's 945 seems to be based on a twisting of a desire to give immigrants from hotbeds of terrorist activity into a desire to keep them from the USA gene pool. How strange is that?

Which of the usual suspects is fisting Organ Grinder? My shekels (or Quatloos if preferred) are on Frisch, the others just do not do faux intellectuel nearly as well.

[ScenesFromTheApocalypse]

The next army of internet Blue Team trolls is getting fired up.

https://www.scribd.com/document/337235212/Confidential-David-Brock-American-Bridge-Memo

Plus, Pelosi sticking to things that matter.

http://www.lifezette.com/referral/pelosi-caught-hot-mic-tell-youre-muslim/

[fish]

Posted by: Gregory | 31 January 2017 at 11:31 AM

Which of the usual suspects is fisting Organ Grinder? My shekels (or Quatloos if preferred) are on Frisch, the others just do not do faux intellectual nearly as well.

Probably the same one puppeting "jon smith".....who made a reappearance at nearly the exact same time.

[Walt]

I have some news for Grinder.
http://www.breitbart.com/video/2017/01/31/trump-supporter-knocked-unconscious-by-protester-at-portland-international-airport/

[Account Deleted]

Walt - the Trump supporter deserved it cause he wasn't tolerant enough.

[Bonnie McGuire]

My goodness, what the heck is Mr. Grinder talking about? Tolerance? I've voted for 64 years and this is the first time I've seen real intolerance! The alleged liberal, tolerant Democrats inciting violence because their candidate for President lost? Reminds me of the Socialist Nazis/Communists of Europe last century killing those who didn't agree with them. Following this election...those demonstrating are not tolerant people. Tolerant means allowing others an opinion you disagree with. Wow! What a test this is for everyone.
One more thing...If it weren't for successful people, who would be there to employ all those who need employment? Been on both sides so know what's important for all concerned. Oh...and if you're in government, you'd be penniless without the employers and employees in the private sector who pay the taxes that keep you going.

[Walt]

Speaking of tolerance,, This LIN CBS station sure ended discussion quickly.
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2017/01/30/calif-to-consider-enacting-statewide-sanctuary/
Judging by all the negativity of Ca. splitting the sheets, CBS quite while they were behind. Intolerant to dissenting opinions.

[Don Bessee]

Fish @ 1239- Could be a split personality disorder, they do seem to travel as a pack. ;-)

[Bill Tozer]

Since the states collectively formed the Federal Government, the people are both citizens of their respective states as well as citizens of the nation. No single state can remove its citizens from being citizens of the United States, IMHO. Neither can a single state acting alone can nullify the Constitution, also IMHO.

"As Madison explained, the Constitution was “a mixture of both” consolidated and confederated governments. Neither Webster’s claim that the American people in “the aggregate” were the sovereign who formed the Constitution nor Calhoun’s position that individual sovereign states were the parties creating the Constitution accurately described the federal founding. Rather, “the undisputed fact is, that the Constitution was made by the people…as imbodied into the several States…and, therefore, made by the States in their highest authoritative capacity.”[56] States acting in their highest sovereign capacity were not the sovereign people of each state acting individually. According to Madison, a state acted in its “highest sovereign capacity” only when the sovereign people of the state acted in combination with the sovereign people of other states.[57]

During the federal convention, Madison had argued that the sovereign was the people in the discrete states acting collectively. The draft constitution, he noted, sprang “not immediately from the people, but from the States which they respectively composed.” During the ratification debate, he identified the sovereign behind the Constitution as “the people of America,” acting “not as individuals composing one entire nation; but as composing the distinct and independent States to which they respectively belong.”[58]

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2012/02/interposition-and-heresy-of-nullification-james-madison-exercise-of-sovereign-constitutional-powers

[Bill Tozer]

Ok, how about something less technical.

"Not all liberals are stupid; many of them just have bad luck when they try to think."

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QsM6OWOcLVo

[George Rebane]

BillT 814am - Mr Tozer, does this mean that you didn't read my post, or just quoting from it?

[Bill Tozer]

Dr. Rebane......just quoting your post as a lead in. I have read your post thrice. I was expounding on your post with a concrete example (video) and also regretting my 9:41 pm last night that does really address Calexit with pre Civil War history.

The Great Divide, the clash of cultures, the current disdain the two sides have for each other.....on and on. Winners and losers. Me thinks Mr. Grinder does not have a firm grasp of the Constitution, nor the mechanisms of our Constitutional Republic to protect minority viewpoints and regional differences.

But, who are we kidding? Fancy arguments are a waste of time. It' all gets down to Agenda 21, pro or con. The Alt-Left equates nationalism (America First as a sovereign nation) as Nazism and a direct threat to their progressive ideology while those of my ilk see the other side as leading us to autocracy and tyranny and then something much much worse.

"They believe in open borders, free trade, globalization. Trump believes in securing the Southern border, bringing U.S. industry home, economic nationalism, “America First.”
They want endless immigration from the Third World to remake America into the polyglot “universal nation” of Ben Wattenberg’s utopian vision. Trump’s followers want back the America they knew"

"And Trump not only appears to have no desire to yield to his enemies in politics and the media, he has no choice, as he is now the personification of a surging Middle American counterrevolution.
Undeniably, there are great numbers of Americans who agree with the libels the Times showered on Trump and, by extension, his backers whom Hillary Clinton designated “the racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamophobic … deplorables.”

But by whatever slurs they are called, Middle Americans seem prepared to fight. And history shows that such people do not calmly accept the loss of what is most precious to them — the country they grew up in, the country they love."

Link not on topic, but quotes above are.
http://buchanan.org/blog/the-first-firestorm-126483

[Bill Tozer]

Dr. Rebane.
PS:
I, too, neatly avoided the big question of "where do we go from here". Just posting stuff that has covered in depth and endlessly. They bad, we good or we bad, they good. The battle lines have been drawn.

[George Rebane]

BillT 1016am et seq - Well said Mr Tozer.

[Bill Tozer]

Been waiting for this.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/readersreact/la-ol-le-calexit-republicans-california-secession-20170204-story.html

[BradC]

@George Rebane | 30 January 2017 at 09:12 AM

"The electoral college is a disaster for a democracy." - Donald J. Trump
Nov 2012

[fish]

Posted by: BradC | 04 February 2017 at 05:56 PM

Bet he rethought that statement Brad!

[George Rebane]

BradC 556pm - Huh??! what's that got to do with my 912am?

[Bill Tozer]

Maybe we could take in a few Bay Area refugees from the dangerous streets across the divide. To serve and protect.

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2017/02/04/bay-area-conservatives-host-secret-meetups-fearing-for-their-safety/