Oh, were it only that simple (updated 13apr17)

George Rebane

Our local graphical commentator RL (Bob) Crabb posted one of his most powerful and well-crafted offerings filched here from the 11apr17 Union.  In it he joins with deep thinkers like (also local commentator) Hilary Hodge and Rodney King to convincingly communicate the ‘Why can’t we all just get along?’ message.

Unfortunately, such effective propaganda messages leave out what the world has experienced and continues to do so today.  I summarize it below.

[13apr17 update]  A Lament. I discovered at Bob Crabb’s blog that he sees my post above as another episode of “mocking” him. In his post Mr Crabb expanded his own commentary with a thorough drub of RR, to wit –

I see that this latest entry is already being mocked over at Rebane’s Ruminations. I’m not surprised. George and his friends have been doing their endless circle jerk for years on end, now emboldened by the regressive policies of the Trump juggernaut. I’ve long since abandoned any hope of dialog with that snarky crew.

In a futile response I posted this comment –

I am saddened that you consider my critique of your excellent cartoon on RR as being “mocked”. No matter how our worldviews may differ, you have always had a respectful reception and, where necessary, a civil counter. In short, I have never mocked you, but would consider it a boon if you could point out which of my posts covering RL Crabb you consider as being of a mocking nature. Perhaps we have different definitions for the term.

Mocking can apparently be done only in writing but not graphically. To confirm this, readers can review all the Crabb cartoons that have adorned these pages over the years, and then decide whether or not they were floated down to us from the mock-free heights which some cartoonists inhabit.

Admittedly, the ad hominems that some RR commenters insist on inserting between serious analyses and commentaries do detract. Unfortunately, I don’t know how to convince my readers that such inserts reflect poorly on RR and, of course, themselves. (Re ‘snarky’ repartees; the boundary between snark and wit is hazy, save for those with a keen sense of others’ morals. One man’s snark is another’s wit.) However, I have yet to find another blog in these parts that has the breadth and depth of covered topics we do here, while welcoming all comers, and whose comment streams more often than not contain thoughtful, well-formed, and appropriately cited entries that expand on or dispute what I or our byline contributors post here.

In the final analysis RR is what it is, and that itself is variously seen/judged by its readers. As made clear over the years, I don’t pretend to present ‘fair and balanced’ views simply because I am incapable of such rhetorical feats. And moreover, I believe those who claim to be so blessed are really charlatans or simply ignorant. RR will continue to unabashedly reflect the tinted/tainted views which all of its contributors and commenters bring to this forum. Perhaps someday our betters can forgive us, but we are what we are, and it was ever thus.

Comments

[Todd Juvinall]

Those darn socialist killed more people than the fascists last century. But they did it with a smile.

[Bill Tozer]

Kinda hard to not open both eyes and be fully cognizant when we are being lectured to occupy the same planet with these folks. Sure, I will tolerate them, but not condone their broken thinkers. Gotta cut the high grass to see the snakes, if you catch my drift.

https://www.facebook.com/PatriotPost/photos/a.82108390913.80726.51560645913/10154610691055914/?type=3&theater

[Bill Tozer]

Darn it all. This is the link meant for moi 1:03 pm. It's these people I need to keep both eyes open.....and somebody better watch me with both eyes open as well. :)

[Gregory]

Our friend RL Crabb has had his own selective blindness issues... with a few posts making it clear he thought libertarian was just another flavor of conservative and long refusing to consider the right vs left dichotomy was anything other than a gangfight over turf.

Here's RL's words:

"I’ve given up trying to communicate rationally with conservatives (or whatever hybrid you’re channeling today, Greg) and progressives."

It seems to me RL's image of libertarians being a malleable conservative hybrid is from the same ignorance of the parable of the blind men describing the elephant. If, like the 'toon above, you are always trying to fit multidimensional political opinions into just two pidgeonholes, you'll never be happy with the results.

I really can't find any attempt of Crabb's to "communicate rationally" on any contentious matter, preferring as he has in the above cartoon, to place himself as a fictional rational but bewildered man in the middle just wanting everyone else to get along... without any serious inquiry and rational argument (in the Classic sense, not the Roller Derby or "Pro Wrestling" sense which news media, including editorial 'toonists, prefer) over the issues.

RL continued...

"Supreme court nominees always end up being a crap shoot. Once they don the black robe they are the law, period. I have no problem with Trump’s choice, although I was rooting for Judge Judy.
I am well aware of the limitations of my craft. It appeals to the psyche on a different level than journalism. It’s a way to channel people’s frustration, in many ways like throwing a rock through the window of a bank or the DMV. I’ll muddle along, thank you."

It seems to me that Earl is happy to be blindly throwing 'toon bricks into windows to earn a few shekels... no, Myopia is not a desired destination but neither is an Idiocracy. And George, I'd argue the issue isn't a mythic Capitalism vs. a cartoon Socialism, but free markets versus politically controlled outcomes.

As P.J. O'Rourke has pointed out, "When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators". It doesn't mean much whether they are of the mythical right or the mythical left.

[George Rebane]

Gregory 207pm - By all means, feel free to substitute 'mythic free markets' for 'mythic capitalism', and educate us on the finer points of differentiating socialism from politically controlled outcomes.

[Gregory]

George, I'm sure you could identify a kleptocrat or two on the Christian right if you put on your thinking cap.

[George Rebane]

Gregory 256pm - Huh?! Gregory, you'll have to go slower with me. You forget I'm the son of peasants on both sides. My father was born and raised in what we know as as a log cabin, one that during long winter nights was illuminated by a taper (long thin strips of wood used for light by people who could not afford candles or oil lamps).

[Gregory]

GR, OK, you want to pretend to not have an idea, here's an example for you to start with... did Queen Isabella ruin Spain's economy with her Marxist ways? Or was George V's collectivism what drove the American revolution?

Socialism is a modern bane of free markets but not the first.

How about Bautista? Pinochet? There are many ways of interfering with markets for fun and/or profit.

[George Rebane]

Gregory 845pm - I haven't got a clue what you're talking about, or how it relates to my post. Queen Isabella ruining Spain's economy??!! And what came first or last or ...?? What on earth are you contending??

[Gregory]

George, I apologize for burying the central idea of my earlier posts too deeply for you:

Left vs right is older than socialism vs capitalism and the real conflict has always been freedom vs tyrants, large and small.

[jon smith]

Where do health care delivery and prescription drugs fit on that teeter totter?

[George Rebane]

Gregory 1217am – Your central idea was indeed buried too deeply for the likes of me. Apparently I unintentionally returned the favor in my post, for neither Bob Crabb nor I mean to communicate anything as simple as good guys vs bad guys (or your “freedom vs tyrants”). We are both talking about the contemporaneous schism between Right v Left or, if you will, between capitalism v collectivism. Neither side thinks of themselves as being tyrants or promoting tyranny or ever having done so. Quite the opposite, both sides have salutary notions of themselves as being the beneficiaries of mankind and human society were they each to prevail.

Bob’s cartoon seeks to diminish the existing ideological schism and seeks to cast it as an unfortunate misunderstanding between the two sides for which there exists an easily found common ground that could be attained if we only stopped the rancor and opened our ‘eyes’ to it. My counter to this oft offered nostrum is that the difference between the two sides is much more fundamental than that, one important aspect of which I illustrate with the above graphic. Neither of us intends the reader to frame these arguments so as to require him to consider the primacy of tyranny v freedom going back to the Renaissance. This simply is not the issue as exemplified here.

Hope this helps.

[George Rebane]

jons 847am - Excellent question Mr smith. For a more detailed answer, your question too must be more detailed. But in general the answer is that "healthcare delivery and prescription drugs" conform perfectly to the teeter totter paradigm when the total cost of each delivered under the aegis of capitalism and socialism are taken into account.

Apprehending your intended point here, we should recall that both healthcare delivery and prescriptions drugs are currently available only under corporatist government regulations which creates a market bearing little if any semblance to capitalism.

[Paul Emery]

George

There are many examples of common ground such our agreement that MJ should not be illegal and is a matter of freedom of personal choice.

[Paul Emery]

Also I agree with Trump on several things including the fact that the war in Iraq was based on lies and Bush should have been impeached. Also his view that affordable health insurance should be available to everyone with no restrictions on pre-existing conditions.

[George Rebane]

PaulE 1013am - OK, posit that you're materially right in these cases. How do these inform the debate on the free vs ever more regulated direction we take the country?

[Paul Emery]

I say we start local and find things we can agree on and we find things that we can compromise on and then we find things that we have no agreement or compromise on Being local we actually talk to each other in person Try as best we can to ignore party affiliations because party positions are so affected by special interest money we as individuals have no control over

Kind of idealistic I know George but that's my view.

[madhack]

Oh, Come-on;
With all the things The Union does badly, Crabb is a high point. The guy is a humorist and the only working definition of humor is that is always a new way of looking at something. If Crabb was a run-of-the-mill lefty comic, like Mahr or Whoppie, he would just be snide and mocking.
Rebane is behaving like a lefty college student who gets upset by humor

[George Rebane]

PaulE 1053am - Yes, that's a good start toward which both of us have devoted some considerable effort locally. None of these have really taken off or gotten much traction, but as you know, I regularly meet for coffee and lunches with our neighbors on the Left. Am not aware that this practice is either widespread or reciprocated. Time for another two-guy forum on the issues?

[George Rebane]

madhack 1154am - Mr madhack, it doesn't look like you have any idea of what you're talking about. Were you a more astute or persistent follower of these proceedings, you would know that no one here is "upset" about Bob's cartoon, most certainly not me. Instead, we are celebrating its publication as it reminds us of a very popular yet uncritically embraced sentiment about the country's Great Divide (q.v.), and reprises an issue regularly revisited on these pages. Hope you'll stick around to share more of your views.

[Paul Emery]

Yeah let's talk about that If we start with the local emphasis I think we might be able to make some progress Yes we get hung up on party politics the whole thing is song because the political parties in order to stay in power have to divide people amongst each other Survival at stake

[madhack]

My God, You Are Right:
You did speak well of the cartoon.
I just read your mention of Hillary Hodge ... and I lost it. Had to get vomit off the keyboard.
I need The Union to light the fire and I'll miss the paper when it's gone, But Don Rogers has brought in the worst DFC I've ever read. The community is better off with a newspaper, but it's doomed

[Bill Tozer]

Oh, if only it were that simple. But, feelings get in the way. There is always the "what concerns me is.........". Can't argue with feelings and facts don't do any good, no how.

http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2017/04/11/notre-dame-students-claim-vp-pence-presence-on-campus-makes-them-feel-unsafe/

[Bill Tozer]

Oh, if only it were that simple. I don't know about you, but mine don't look as alluring as an eloquant lady's does. No difference? Learn something new everyday.

http://www.anonews.co/breast-in-public/

[Todd Juvinall]

Having been called numerous fecal expulsions this week by Crabb on FB, I find it laughable he is so brokenhearted on his blog about this cartoon and your response. Of course he is in his mind, "always right" becasue he says he is in the middle and can't be wrong. But he is wrong. And since he says we all are in a circle J*** here and other derisive terms, I guess we have to give up our beliefs to one without any. And yes, he mocks us and I rarely see where he mocks the left. That is his own delusion. But he is something special in his own brain, and I guess that is why he rides the little yellow bus.

[Bill Tozer]

Well, I cannot/will not speak for Mr. Crabb, but Boardman gets the last laugh for selling his UAL stock......albeit considered prematurely by some.

[Bill Tozer]

Oh my. There is nowhere to hide. I can feel the love from here. Nothing brings folks together like a common goal. Teamwork is a bonding experience.

https://heatst.com/tech/shia-labeouf-is-in-a-cabin-in-rural-finland-and-still-getting-trolled/?mod=sm_fb_post

[Account Deleted]

"...because the political parties in order to stay in power have to divide people amongst each other Survival at stake"
So - if there were no political parties, every one would be conservative, Christian and a free market capitalist?
Or would we all be atheist communists?
Or?

[Todd Juvinall]

Poor old whiny RL crying about socialism. And I am now your "boy" George. WQasn't that a singer? Anyway, the guy that skewers all of us and any conservative is having a problem coping with this post. Ah shcucks, and I thought he wore chain mail.

[Paul Emery]

Scott or there would be six or seven different parties and coalitions and they wouldn't be controlled by special interest groups nearly as much as they are and presidential debates would have several different candidates not just two and the debates wouldn't be controlled by the debate commission which is headed by corporations who want to make sure that whoever is elected president can be bought off by their money I can think of all kinds of what if's if we weren't stuck in this two-party system that guarantees control by special interest and international corporations

[Account Deleted]

"... corporations who want to make sure that whoever is elected president can be bought off by their money I can think of all kinds of what if's if we weren't stuck in this two-party system that guarantees control by special interest and international corporations"
Blah, blah, blah.
Special interests?
The Sierra Club? Maybe the special interests that want MJ legalised?
Govt worker unions? NAACP?
Yeah - those darn special interests.
And of course ALL corps and companies all work secretly together for the exact same thing.
Please - do try to come up with some original thinking just once, Paul.
Funny how folks that spout the party line like Paul can never, ever come up with one single clue as to what our wonderful perfect govt would be if we just got rid of 'special interests' running roughshod over 'the people'.
Well - of course besides legalized MJ.
After that, who cares?
We are divided, Paul, because some of us learn from history and some of us just want free stuff.
Special interests, corps and companies got nuttin' to do with it. Paul is like a lot of folks that always think everything would be square if we just got rid of: Jews, Negroes, The Rich, Them, or any number of evil entities that bespoil our otherwise little Eden we call Earth.
We get the govt we deserve, and boy do we get it - good and hard. One day it might occur to folks like Paul that there are all sorts of opinions on how we should be governed and we will have those differences with or without any outside influence.

[Bill Tozer]

Yep, reminds me of all the young people commenting on line after the election saying they did not like either canadate and if everyone would just come together and vote third party life would be splendid....nay, life would be perfect indeed. A brut such as I joined in and asked what everyone could possibly ever agree on that encompasses every aspect of society. Free college for all? No more wars? The lion would lay down with the lamb? Every politician honest as the day is long? No corruption? No more pain, no more sorrow. All people are good and nice and wave to strangers and everybody likes you? No politician or citizen or resident would ever tell a lie? Now, I asked where in the heck did they plan to put human nature. If only we could pass another law against rape, all women would feel and BE safe, my golly.

Oh, were it only that simple. Maybe on another planet.

https://heatst.com/entertainment/npr-ombudsman-absurdly-says-maybe-were-too-conservative/?mod=sm_fb_post

[Walt]

Crabb might need to take some insight from his own scribbles.

[Paul Emery]

So Bill you're saying we're stuck with a two party system and we might as well get used to it. That works for you because you seem to be a genetic Republican but many of feel differently and old out for hope .

[Paul Emery]

Scott??? You say I'm "spouting the party line" but what I'm advocating is dumping the two partys and encouraging independent alternative parties of all kinds. How did you come to that conclusion?

[Todd Juvinall]

Genetic Republican? Now that is interesting. I am a Republican because I like freedom and liberty. Democrats like big government and rules to squeeze away those freedoms. Simple as that.

[Todd Juvinall]

Walt, Crabb is no freind of anything but his misguided view of the world. He think he rops all sides but he doesn't. He is a liberal and I guess he is afraid to admit it. Sad inner turmoil is not good for the soul.

[Paul Emery]

Republicans sure supported liberty last when Todd when Frump signed the bill repealing internet privacy rules passed last year by the Federal Communications Commission that would have given internet users greater control over what service providers can do with their data. Now we have no control over what ATT does with our private information. Thanks Republicans an Pres Rump for protecting our privacy.

[Todd Juvinall]

Who is Frump? The bill he signed brought freedom back to the internet. You have been snookered.

[Paul Emery]

Our President Frump. You know who he is. Freedom to the internet Todd Really...

From Fox News

"Undoing the regulation leaves people's online information in a murky area. Experts say federal law still requires broadband providers to protect customer information — but it doesn't spell out how or what companies must do, which is what the online privacy rule aimed to do.

The absence of clear privacy rules means companies that supply internet service, and who can monitor how consumers use it, can continue to mine that information for use in their own advertising businesses. Consumer advocates also worry that the companies will be a rich target for hackers."

[Paul Emery]

By the way Todd our Rep Doug LaMalfa collected a cool $5000 from AT&T and was a big supporter of the bill. Drain the swamp? Sure Todd . Here's the list of Repubs who supported the bill and got big bucks from AT&T.

http://www.theverge.com/2017/3/29/15100620/congress-fcc-isp-web-browsing-privacy-fire-sale

[Todd Juvinall]

Still no idea who Frump is. And I am correct the action makes the internet open.

[Todd Juvinall]

ATT donated? Great. You all think it costs nothing to run and never donate. How much have you donated this last election. Give us the link so we can see how you put your money where your mouth is. Internet is open and running fine.

[Paul Emery]

You don't have a clue Todd about the Bill. It had nothing to do with keeping the internet "open" but about the ability of ISP's to sell supposedly private information for their profit. Do your homework before you open your mouth. It will avoid embarrassments.
Didn't donate a dime last election Todd. Last time I donated was to John Edwards then the next week I found out he was bonking his videographer and using campaign money to shut her up. Taught me a lesson for sure.

[George Rebane]

Messrs Emery and Juvinall - What does any of this have even remotely to do with the topic of this post??

[Todd Juvinall]

I would say it has every thing to do with this post. Internet freedom and the use of data. The R's voted to go back to the status before Obama's people tried to rtake over via the FCC. Now PE says that is wrong. I see he does not understand the issue.

[Account Deleted]

"You say I'm "spouting the party line" but what I'm advocating is dumping the two partys and encouraging independent alternative parties of all kinds."
Paul - 'Alternative' parties still have their own party line and you're spouting it. You neatly side stepped the direct question, but then again - you always do.
Your blather about corps and special interests ruining our other wise perfect system of govt is nonsense and I laid it out pure and simple. You have chosen to ignore that and come up with more nonsense about not following a party line because you want to 'dump' (outlaw?) the 2 current parties and come up with a multitude of magical parties that apparently have no fixed ideology nor platform. Good luck with that.
I'm still waiting for Crabb to come up with his 'middle of the road' both-eyes-open manifesto, but he has decided to mock everyone who posts here while crying about being mocked himself.
I can see why he has given up having a dialog with us as he finds very quickly that if he posits some sort of theory of life on this blog, some one will kindly ask him to defend that view with reality and facts. The last time I asked him to provide an example of what he was talking about, he begged off, because he "didn't have a list". That's short hand for 'I don't have any proof, I just read it some where and am regurgitating it to make myself look intelligent'.
This isn't Mother Jones or Daily Kos.
You post here and then get ready to defend your flag. If that is too triggering, then flock to whatever blog will have you. I hear the FUE runs a great little 'middle of the road' blog.

[George Rebane]

ToddJ 1236pm - This post has nothing to do with "Internet freedom and the use of data." Please read it again, and invite the thread's continuance to the sandbox on your blog.

[Walt]

Tornado? HERE!!!?? I'm in the center of the warning box.
Bill.. Take cover. We are headed to the center of the house.
Pray for our trailer parks.

[Paul Emery]

George

I beg to differ with you since the topic of your piece is why can't we get along. The dramatic difference in support for the Internet bill I cite is evidence of the influence of big money to affect legislation outcomes and how that is acceptable to whatever party affiliation decides to support or oppose a measure.
Not taking sides here just documenting this particular issue with my 12:00 link showing all Republican support for the bill ass demonstrated by the fact that big money flowed to the Repubs and the payoff was was evidenced by strict party line yes or no votes. There is no ideological basis for the vote yet the Reds voted yes and the Blues no. My conclusion is that we are not necessarily driven by ideological differences as much as we are party affiliations.

The extension of the conversation to that topic I find relevant to your "Oh, were it only that simple" topic.

I have no desire to visit Todds blog on this or any other matter.

[Gregory]

I remember a caller into some talk radio show, a teenager who claimed to be a relative of a Congresscritter, had a joke:

How is a tornado like a divorce in Arkansas?

Somewhere, someone is about to lose a trailer.

The nastiness is heading my way at the moment, my sweetie is in town... called her to have her hunker down at the CVS or Safeway till it's blown by.

http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/grass-valley-ca/95945/weather-radar/332138

[Walt]

Dodged that one. It stayed north of us.

[Walt]

Apply RL's tune to this. I do believe he would only need one eye to see where is idea is headed.
http://www.salon.com/2017/04/12/watch-5-reasons-maxine-waters-should-be-our-next-president/

I really encourage the DEMS to slap their seal of approval on her.

[George Rebane]

PaulE 0339pm - I understand your desire to air this issue, but in the same fashion one could argue that a hundred different issues have the same relationship to the ideological schism which is rending the country, and which Crabb and I both want to highlight in this post. Try to stay close to the theme here. Thanks.

[Account Deleted]

Paul's 3:39 is the perfect example of left wing know-nothingism. It's always a 2 dimensional cartoon to the left. On one side is freedom and honor and on the other side is 'big money'.
Same as the XL pipeline.
Good ol' Obama didn't cave to the special interests.
Right, Paul?
Wrong.
There is 'big money' on both sides, Paul. The XL pipeline had billions of dollars going against it, including one of the richest men in the world who happens to own a big stake in the rail lines that would lose their oil cargo to the pipe line.
A lot of extremely wealthy companies and their owners did not want the ISPs to have an ability that only they had previously. All of the screechers that are complaining abut this mythic new evil that has been unleashed on the world could do something about it, but bitching is easier to do while hitting the bong.
You could just go down to the library and use their computers or you could contact your ISP to ask them to send you in writing their policy and if you don't like it, you can tell them adios. And yes, there are alternatives.
If everyone who claims they are all upset about the new law did something about it, you could have your way.
But you won't (nobody really cares about being tracked now) so please stop this wailing about goodness and light vs evil big money. It's just BS.
Our differences Paul, do not originate from special interests, big money or political parties. Unless Paul is claiming he would agree with me all of the time if it weren't for those rascally guys with big money forcing him to differ from me just for the pay-off.

[Account Deleted]

Walt at 4:56 - Ol' Maxine is definitely a middle of the road, both eyes open type of POTUS we need. Oh please, Dems - run her in the next election for pres.
Please!!!

[Paul Emery]

Scott, going to the library to use the Internet as a way to avoid having your private information soLd Is not a very practical option for most people First of all the Internet has become a utility This case we only have AT&T up here as ISP.

More than anything I was trying to point out that our point of view on this issue and many others is largely determined by the political party we may prescribe to. Does this make any sense to you? First of all both parties are bought out by special interest who make contributions with the expectation that those they give money to will vote in their favor when there is proposed legislation that will favor them. Do we agree up to this point ? So when Republicans and Democrats lineup on different sides of an issue such as access to our private information and making it available for sale it's not an iideological question as to whether it's conservative or liberal but more just lining up behind the predetermined party position we prescribed to Your analogy of the pipeline is actually a good one demonstrating this That's the only point I'm trying to make to make this consistent with the intent of George's post.

[Walt]

Paul. no was on the side of big business more than Hillary. LIBS sold our jobs to "big business". Why pay higher labor costs here, when you can buy politicians, have their things made anywhere but here and pay chump change for labor? Trump just about has put a quick end to that. Miss that news?
That Walter B. you couldn't find anything about must have been doing something right. A master sleuth could find nothing on the net. So our info is sold..BFD.. That's nothing new.
That was happening long before the internet came along.

[Bill Tozer]

@ 3:49 pm.
Got pics Walt. Semi-Biblical frozen water fell from sky. Direct hit. Took pics of that white stuff that ain't snow, but close enough. Wolf pack rolled around in it and thought it was the greatest thing since the newsman guaranteed Trump had less than a 1% chance of taking the kingdom by storm. They never understood the Deplorables, never will. The gift that keeps on giving.

Now if Crabb can stand tall against both parties and cry "a pox on both your houses!", show incredulous dismay when someone steps in it or falls down the stairs, then all is well in the land where there is a full moon every night. Better to be a rebel without a cause than a rebel without a job. He gets paid to point out the faults......in others. Sweet.

[Don Bessee]

It sure smells like a sandbox with all the off topic po' ol' party parroting going on. ;-)

[Paul Emery]

I'm talking of directly about what George posted What Do you have to offer?

[Todd Juvinall]

I am probably heading to a pro-Trump rally in Berkley Saturday. Yikes!

[Gregory]

George 12 April 2017 at 09:20 AM

No, no help at all as you just keep ignoring the issue, and I'd not make a guess as to just how intentional it is, probably as much as Crabb or Emery. Capitalism good/socialism bad is just the usual IFF tribal BS and I think I'm channeling Friedman on this. It is about how much of a nation's gnp the government spends directly or otherwise wastes.

I recall Wm. F. Buckley labeling Democrats as Socialists and Republicans as Reluctant Socialists and that arguably remains true.

One can also effectively send the world back into the dark ages by implementing completely free market mechanisms by (small d) democratic means that tax fossil fuels into oblivion to please the gods of political correctness. Or by creating a vast armada of the best military equipment money can buy only to have the foe it was created to vanquish to destroy it by tactics your admirals didn't anticipate.

[Bill Tozer]

Mr. Don @ 7:40 pm. Yep, took less than 36 hours to turn Ruminations into the Sandbox, with a quick strike on Syria turning into control for saving lives. Sandbox it was and Sandbox it is. What concerns me is........ At least the "Its the Dawa, stupid!" Is safe. Always a silver lining.

Back to the topic of this post, people just see things they way they choose to. I see socialism as tyranny with a long history it's insatiable thirst to control every aspect of one's life. It was Lenin or Stalin that said socialism is the road to communism. And communism has historically failed, as well as the policy of appeasement.

There are two artists looking at the same oak tree. One artist believes he has taken the moral high ground and is offended rather easily. The other artist (named Bill) shakes his head, takes a breathe, and in a moment of clarity, says "go pound sand."

https://www.facebook.com/PatriotPost/photos/a.82108390913.80726.51560645913/10154611872370914/?type=3&theater

[Account Deleted]

Well Paul has it all figured out. We're all just arguing against each other solely because what ever party we belong to makes us believe all that we believe.
Of course, none of this applies to Paul.
He, like Crabb is above all of that and has the one true vision that he strangely keeps all to hisself.
Since I don't belong to a party, I'm not sure how it applies to me, but it's Paul's great theory and he's sticking to it.

[George Rebane]

gregory 812pm - You are free to introduce your own issue as you will. But you cannot by fiat change or tell BobC and me what issue we decided to frame and post on - we determine that. You have not chosen or been able to connect your arguments to the points Bob and I have presented and contend here. Just insisting that you're right and everyone else is wrong will not work, no matter how ex cathedra you sound.

State your own proposition and argue it; you apparently don't have a clue about mine.

[Paul Emery]

What George proposes we talk about is a very big issue and what I have noted is part but not all of the problems. The other idea I had in this session is that we focus on local issues and try to get to gather in person and actually talk to each other and find things we agree on find things to be partially agree on and find things we completely disagree on That can be a big start

I have repeatedly said that I do not support either major party. Did not vote for a Republican or a Democrat in the last two national elections Can You say the same Scott?

[fish]

Uh oh.....

CNN Confirms Fox's Napolitano - British Intelligence Passed On Trump Surveillance To US Spy Agency

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-04-13/cnn-confirms-foxs-napolitano-british-intelligence-passed-trump-surveillance-us-spy-a

[Paul Emery]

Could have much to say on this topic fish but first refresh us as to what that has to do with the topic at hand as defined by George

[Gregory]

GR 842
I am discussing exactly the same issue from a POV you are either refusing to entertain or just can't imagine. No worries. We all have our own idiotsyncrasies.

[Account Deleted]

"I have repeatedly said that I do not support either major party. Did not vote for a Republican or a Democrat in the last two national elections"
Yes Paul, you have told us repeatedly.
That doesn't constitute any sort of political stand beyond the fact that you don't vote for Dems or Rs. It doesn't validate anything you have to opine, nor make you correct in your postings here.
It doesn't solve any issues nor does it offer any sort of answer to the problems our country and the world face.
Your fantasy about having a bunch of fringe parties all magically coming together in some sort of group hug as a viable sort of govt is pure nonsense.
I have voted for some Rs (McClintock to name one) and other party candidates. I will always look at the candidate who most closely hews to my conservative, free market and Constitutional views.
That tends to never be a Dem and most certainly is never any sort of socialist or leftist candidate. The parties never control in any way what my view of the world is and never sway my judgement.
None are perfect and probably never will be.
Our govt is corrupt because 'the people' love corrupt politicians that give them goodies. That's why our govt is bankrupt and crooked. The People, at this point, wouldn't have it any other way. Stop blaming it on special interests and corporations. They don't have an army or a police force. And until Obama, they couldn't make anyone buy anything from them.

[Gregory]

Paul 851

What has been your declared party for voter registration over the last, oh, 20 years?
I registered DEM in 1972. Registered LIB in 1984. If Michael P Anderson (aka Agent Mandersonation) of Nevada City is lurking, it also might be interesting to read why such a hater of everything Republican is apparently a registered Republican.

In the meantime, the Democratic Party has been on a rampage, cleansing the party of any semblance of Thomas Jefferson and the classic liberalism of their origins.

[fish]

Posted by: Walt | 13 April 2017 at 04:56 PM

She's what America deserves Walt!

[fish]

Posted by: Paul Emery | 13 April 2017 at 09:38 PM

I could tell you Paul but you'd just forget and we would have to discuss it all over again later. That "Barn Circling" that George refers to to repeatedly when discussing your comments.

[fish]

.....looks like even the Norks are figuring our (in their own limited way) your see-saw diagrams! It's my understanding that US senators from Vermont still can't noodle it through though!

"Most importantly, however, we need to understand that North Korea is in the middle of a consumerist transformation. Ten kinds of toothpaste? Who needs that? Such thinking was prevalent among state officials for decades but now has made room for a much more market oriented logic. Today, ten types of toothpaste? Fine, if customers buy and a profit can be made. This is the new thinking in North Korea these days. Competition is everywhere, including between travel agencies, taxi companies and restaurants."

It seems things are improving even in the North!

Pity the little fat boy couldn't have been a little bit more circumspect with respect to his bellicose posturing His role as leader of a Chinese buffer state wasn't a bad gig!

http://38north.org/2017/04/rfrank040617/

[Todd Juvinall]

One only needs to look at the number of patents that America issues as opposed to the rest of the planet. Here is a link for the totals in 2015. Also previous years. America, in one year has fifty percent more in one year than the rest of the planet. And I give personal freedom as guaranteed by our Constitution and our individual protections for these amazing totals.

https://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/ido/oeip/taf/cst_all.htm

[Paul Emery]

Todd

Last time you touched on this subject you added that the majority of those US patents were filed by white males. Yes, freedom for American White Males is a blessing to the world as documented by Todd Juvinall.

[George Rebane]

Gregory 1002pm – From your 207pm and 812pm the reader (including me) comes away with the definite notion that Rebane doesn’t understand the issue of his own post. But now I learn we are indeed “discussing the same issue” but from different POVs, one (yours) of which I won’t entertain or can’t imagine due to my “idiotsyncrasy”. While I do admit limits to my imagination, I have never been known to refuse entertaining a different POV. On the contrary, I revel in it and RR is testimony to that as a long running invitation to the dance.

So given the post and the 920am definition of MY issue, I would still like to understand your POV if you’re up to it. Else we can lay it down gently and go on with life.

[Todd Juvinall]

Yes Paul Emery. Facts are facts. What is your problem with the facts?

[Gregory]

George 1033am, it seems clear to the reader (including me) that your ignoring of the core assertions of my recent posts have more to do with your reacting to the challenge to your pronouncements with argumentum ad hominem.

[Gregory]

Scott 1033PM
"Your [PE's] fantasy about having a bunch of fringe parties all magically coming together in some sort of group hug as a viable sort of govt is pure nonsense."

I can't remember which one, but a major (in their very minor way) Libertarian candidate circa 1990 reminded an interviewer that a Libertarian candidate had to have a sense of humor about what they are doing because, barring some existential cataclysm collapsing the two big dogs, they won't be winning the office. The current fantasy of the self declared "progressive libertarians" or "green libertarians" is that their coersive Utopian vision would be helped along if the one party that truly is a foe of coersion would see themselves as natural allies.

The phrase "howls of derisive laughter, Bruce!" comes to mind. I've come to the conclusion that, rather than Libertarian Party as the adopted name, reaching back to "Democratic-Republican Party", the original label for the party of Jefferson, would have been an easier sell to the nation.

Crabb has stated a belief the nation cannot survive unless everyone unites behind one version, one interpretation of current events so he doesn't have to figure it out himself, a state that has never been and can never be. What we have now is, if we can all remember, a Republic, if we can keep it. It doesn't require everyone to agree on one newspaper of record, or one broadcast entity. It does require us to accept the results of elections and to not invent news out of whole cloth to cast them in doubt.

Democratic Party luminaries have made completely unsupportable claims about our legal history... one is that the refusal of the GOP Senate to consider any SCOTUS nomination until after 11/8/2016 was unprecedented (it wasn't) or that the 2nd amendment was never considered to be an individual right before DC v Heller (yes, it was, and I've quoted the parade of horribles from the Dred Scott majority opinion to demonstrate that in the past), but then let us remember... Hillary Clinton failed the Washington DC bar exam and then kept that fact hidden for 30 years.

We live in interesting times and while Trump was never my choice, it wasn't Libertarians who were pushing the major news media to promote Trump, Cruz and Carson as pied piper candidates; that was Clinton's campaign manager interfering with the election.

[Paul Emery]

Gregory

So in your view we just have to face up to the reality that we will always have a two party system and there's no point in opposing that reality. |Funny how Canada, Britain and most of the free world have multiple party systems but not us. Hmmm Any idea why?

[Todd Juvinall]

Paul Emery, yes those countries have multiple parties just LIKE WE DO! (llok at your ballot) The facts are in those other countries the Parliment is filled by TWO and once THREE parties. So hundreds of parties boils down to two mostly and that seems to be what the people want. I suggest you get off your butt and organize your "party" by convincing Americans to join your efforts and get them registered. Short of that Americans seem to like two major parties and I see that into the distant future.

[Gregory]

Wow... Paul, you need to work on your reading comprehension. Could you actually quote the sentence or two that your mind mangled into "we just have to face up to the reality that we will always have a two party system and there's no point in opposing that reality"?

Again... what party are you actually registered to? It has been shared that you're a registered Democrat. Is that true? For how long? Why?

Most of the free world have parliamentary systems with proportional representation, passed down from their origins as monarchies... a place for the peasants and the lords to insult each other for awhile before the King or Queen bless the result or order a head or two to be severed. A strength of that system is that big decisions can be reached very quickly, while the biggest drawback is that that very big and very bad incorrect decisions can also be reached very quickly. And a PM can be forced to dissolve a government as soon as they can no longer muster a majority in their coalition, calling for new elections.

We have a three legged system with checks and balances between the three branches. It takes time and consensus to do anything, with a House that sometimes looks like Les Miserables and a Senate operating more akin an Entmoot in Fangorn. Works for me, but a side effect is that viable 3rd parties arrive on occasion but they have a hard time breaking into the top two which tends to be the number that fit into the system.

We don't have a two party system, it just tends to settle that way. And I'd never gang up with minor parties that are fundamentally opposed to the principles put to paper by the likes of John Locke or Thomas Jefferson, or the scientific principles embodied by The Royal Society's "nullius in verba" and Popper's falsification.

That would include Peace and Freedom, Green, the current Democratic part and all of the others beyond the fringe that tend to have Socialist and/or Workers in their labels.

[Todd Juvinall]

Checking the voter registrations I cannot find a Paul Emery there. So maybe he is fibbing all this time?

[Paul emery]

Voted libertarian last two elections Todd. You must have a lot of time on your hands not much work as a developer anymore for you ha ha

[Don Bessee]

What you vote has nothing to do to with what your registration status party parrot po' ol' PE. ;-)

[Paul Emery]

Todd

You are really weird. You're becoming some kind of stalker. Going out on a date tonight. Gonna keep my eyes open for you.

[Paul Emery]

For once you're right Don. But everybody knows that so what's the point?

[Todd Juvinall]

Paul Emery you are not registered. Stalker? That would be you. Developer? Never have. I think you have become unhinged.

[Account Deleted]

Gregory at 2:45 - thank you.
That pretty much sums it up.
Lefties like Paul go on and on about 'democracy', and "The People' but when the people get all democratic the wrong way, it all seems to be some mysterious force of evil from what ever hob goblin you choose that has kept the people from doing democracy just like Paul thinks they should.
There are plenty of choices on the ballot, although the Dems in Kalifornia do their best to limit that come the general election. The people of this nation apparently like just 2 major parties. We used to have the Whigs, but the people walked away from them.
Hate to bring it down to a bumper sticker type of choice, but it's Freedom Or Free Stuff. And that is basically what is dividing our nation. I have 2 good eyes and I'm not going down the road of Free Stuff. It doesn't work. It isn't working. We're going broke fer Gawd's sake. Crabb can bitch all he wants that I am the problem. Sorry - I'm not going to take just a little poison all the time to make some one else sleep better at night. We fought wars to obtain our freedoms and liberty. And we will have to continue to fight to keep them.

[Bill Tozer]

Gregory had a good post indeed. We deal with the way things are, not as we wish they be. By all means, Paul, knock yourself out and get on those small Party coalitions and have yourself a viable alternative on the ballot. Make it happen, you can do it!! Compare notes with Brother Ben. He jumped to Jill when Bernie fell out and you jumped to Gary. That's four choices on the major ballots right there. A good start.
Just get millions of voters across the fruited plain to jump on board. Or, go find the perfectt candidate with charm, looks, personality, and fire in his/her/its belly that will swoon the masses and you will be raking in the chips. Hope burns eternal. Chop, chop. Get busy. May the Force be with you. Godspeed.

[Bill Tozer]

Back to Crabb: he will never run out of material. Too much duplicity going on.

https://www.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.217983685002343.55586.217926015008110/1066980696769300/?type=3&theater

[Gregory]

Scott and BT, thanks and you're quite welcome.

Paul E, you're continually ducking the question... what was your declared political party(ies) over the last two decades of voter registration? That's a fair question and public information.

If you want to be a flavor of the month libertarian, great. Register and reach out to lp.org but please don't bother if you're just trying to get some stage props to fluff up your own numbers.

[Todd Juvinall]

What year were you born POaul Emery? I can't find your registration under your name. Are you using a different name? Are you a fugitive or something?

[Paul Emery]

Darn you found out My real name is DB Cooper. Call the cops and turn me in Confess You'll be a hero

[fish]

"FEDS COLLECT RECORD TAXES...

STILL RUN DEFICIT...

This probably isn't going to end well.....

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/695391000000-feds-collect-record-income-taxes-through-march

[Bill Tozer]

Now they want to take away Paul's right to vote for 20 years. Oh, if only it were that simple.

https://www.louderwithcrowder.com/huffpo-time-to-strip-white-men-of-their-voting-rights-yes-really/

[Don Bessee]

Come now BT, surely there is an exclusion for druids?!? ;-)