Male/Female Brains – different?

George Rebane

Here’s the latest little piece of reportage on a very uncomfortable topic for progressives – clinical and physiological differences between men’s and women’s brains.  In ‘Do Men and Women Have Different Brains?’ with tagline ‘A controversy sparked by a Google memo brings up an old question: What role does biology play in personality and behavioral differences?’ we have a report of researchers Dr Daphna Joel, et al at Tel-Aviv University gingerly tiptoeing through the tulips in their ‘Sex beyond the genitalia: The human brain mosaic’ to conclude -

Our study demonstrates that, although there are sex/gender differences in the brain, human brains do not belong to one of two distinct categories: male brain/female brain.

This conclusion does its best to buttress the politically correct assertion that cognitively men and women are essentially identical, and most certainly clinically so, thereby seeking to debunk once more ex-Googler James Damore’s notorious memo (here) about men/women's cognitive and behavioral differences in the workplace.

Dr Joel and colleagues attempt to convince us through their research that there is no discernible difference in the observable FUNCTIONING of the male/female brains.  What I’m willing to bet the ranch on is that if the raw MRI data gathered by the team were appropriately labeled, that a deep learning algorithm could be easily developed that would have no trouble telling the difference between the sexes’ brains.  Furthermore, I believe it would be very difficult to get government funding to do a similar body of research gathering only EEG data to submit to a deep learning program, because the results will most likely turn out to corroborate what Nicholas Wade documented in A Troublesome Inheritance (here).  And that is a big no-no.

Comments

[Peter Van Zant]

So George..having made your case that female and male brains are different, how do you describe the differences and what is your assessment of those differences?

[ScenesFromTheApocalypse]

As a practical matter, my guess is that it's not so much the differences that count, but the variability in each group. It's not so important that the average abilities are the same, but what you find in outliers.

fwiw: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/04/study-finds-some-significant-differences-brains-men-and-women

[Gregory]

PVZ, are you trying to make the case that there are no differences between men and women, but would rather try to catch a Rebane making an unsupported claim about differences than to make that unsupportable claim (that there are no differences) yourself?

There is no male brain, no female brain. Any specific claim could probably be refuted with an example of a brain that didn't meet the claim... hence the claim that got a Google engineer fired... treat everyone as an individual and hire the best engineers they can.

[ScenesFromTheApocalypse]

"What I’m willing to bet the ranch on is that if the raw MRI data gathered by the team were appropriately labeled, that a deep learning algorithm could be easily developed that would have no trouble telling the difference between the sexes’ brains."

I tend to agree, but think by that point it doesn't matter.

If you are measuring for an ability, behavior, tendency, etc. some combination of instrumentation, DNA testing, and the like will find a subgroup of humanity that stands apart. What you could end up with is schools that split classrooms between groups, and the groups share some peculiarity that may be expressed across gender lines (perhaps unevenly). Where it gets interesting is detection of people who are innately truly good at something, so Google wants them (maybe done in India since US employment law will no doubt make it illegal) or some other bunch who are naturally criminals and thus bear watching.

[Account Deleted]

Mr Van Zant 4:59 - "So George..having made your case that female and male brains are different, how do you describe the differences and what is your assessment of those differences?"
Please pay attention - "Our study demonstrates that, although there are sex/gender differences in the brain..."
The study demonstrated that there are gender differences. Not George.
"What I’m willing to bet the ranch on is that if the raw MRI data gathered by the team were appropriately labeled, that a deep learning algorithm could be easily developed that would have no trouble telling the difference between the sexes’ brains."
In other words, an impartial comparison made by a computer would be able to tell a female brain's functioning vs a male brain's functioning.
There is no bad/good or better/worse.
My question to Mr Van Zant is that when you are told that women are better than men at (fill in the blank) have you ever challenged that notion?
George has waded into the 2nd most deadly area of scientific research that a conservative can wet his feet in.
The first, of course, is the study of human intelligence across the different regions of the earth.
The answer is that all human intelligence is exactly the same everywhere and if you try to look into the subject to determine if this can be proven, you are evil.
That is from the folks that claim they are for science.
Good luck to you, George. The left will now commence with every manner of name calling it has at it's disposal.
It seems that the modern idea of gender is that it is nothing more than an artificial construct of Euro-centric white men as a means to keep a certain class of humans subjugated.
Except in areas where women are better than men - in that case it is wonderful to be part of the fairer sex. And no - you can't suddenly decide to 'identify' as a woman to cash in on that cornered market. You can only identify as a woman to be another victim of male oppression.

[fish]

Posted by: Scott Obermuller | 28 August 2017 at 06:03 PM

It seems that the modern idea of gender is that it is nothing more than an artificial construct of Euro-centric white men as a means to keep a certain class of humans subjugated. Except in areas where women are better than men - in that case it is wonderful to be part of the fairer sex. And no - you can't suddenly decide to 'identify' as a woman to cash in on that cornered market. You can only identify as a woman to be another victim of male oppression.

Oh my..…you've cracked the code! You should probably put your personal affairs in order!

[ScenesFromTheApocalypse]

"You can only identify as a woman to be another victim of male oppression."

or to improve your chances in athletics.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/mar/21/laurel-hubbard-transgender-athlete-crushes-female-/

[George Rebane]

PeterVZ 459pm - I think the above commenters' contributions are ones that I can agree with. The progressive mind likes to conceive of a very simplistic world which is populated by black/white differences set by their unique forms of logic. As Nicholas Wade points out there are no clear boundaries of 'this, not that' between the attributes of sexes, races, ethnicities, ...; but in the overlapping distributions of such attributes there are measurable differences in their defining parameters, capabilities, propensities, proclivities, ... . But beyond boobs and balls, such differences to you and yours come under high profanity.

As a metaphor I have used before, I believe there is no better fighter pilot than a young mother with her baby in the back seat. And then there is the embarrassment of having to explain the racist policies of the NBA, given that 'we are all equal where it matters'. (There, that oughta get 'em screaming.)

[Bonnie McGuire]

Interesting intellectual blah blah blah. Of course there's a difference between male and female brains. In the first place it should be obvious that they were made differently for specificate purposes to procreate humans. And then, observing the average physical body you'll notice men are muscular and strong. Women have breasts that will produce milk" and hips that can move outward giving.
Real men are protectors and providers. Women are entrusted (by God and Nature) to give birth, care for and teach their children. Unfortunately this important God given responsibility has been made unimportant by questionable motives promoting glamor, fame an fortune.
The baby sitters teach the children who will be in charge of the future. La de da...

[Gregory]

"Interesting intellectual blah blah blah." Bonnie McGuire

"No blah, blah, blah!"- James T. Kirk

[Todd Juvinall]

Right on Bonnie.

[Russ]

If there are differences in liberal's and conservative's brain structure how is it possible there is no difference between males and female brain structure? The brain is plastic and is shaped by its experiences. Males and female by their very body structure and biological function have different experiences. I am voting for some deep learning AI that is void of human biases to identify the differences.

[Bill Tozer]

"Furthermore, I believe it would be very difficult to get government funding to do a similar body of research gathering only EEG data to submit to a deep learning program, because the results will most likely turn out to corroborate what Nicholas Wade documented in A Troublesome Inheritance (here). And that is a big no-no."

Ending it where the rubber meets the road, eh Dr. Rebane? I will start where you ended.

Perhaps Shakespeare's most famous quote, "The first thing we do is kill all the lawyers" has been resurrected in the Year Zero with the more apt, "The first thing we do is kill all the biologists...then those other heretics"

Shakespeare's exact line ''The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers,'' was stated by Dick the Butcher in ''Henry VI,'' Part II, act IV, Scene II, Line 73. Dick the Butcher was a follower of the rebel Jack Cade, who thought that if he disturbed law and order, he could become king.

Parallel Universe? Afraid to look behind Door #2?

[ScenesFromTheApocalypse]

Just a few notions.

. Certain types of research are currently de facto (but usually not de jure) banned in US universities. Everyone knows what they are. The few researchers will hide their work via avoiding the limelight and using jargon. Perhaps the Chinese will pull ahead in some areas since they are the honey badgers of such things

. Differences in individuals will tend to far overshadow differences between groups. An exception might be physical attributes of gender, height, a few other plastic physical attributes. This doesn't matter since in 2017, the group is the thing, thus the fuss.

. As the science improves and the 'science' of things like sociology actually become acquainted with newfangled techniques like numeracy, you'll see increasing tension between reality and belief systems. I think that conservatives love to bring up this stuff since it makes liberals crazy (and wrong). I expect that it's just a bit of payback for the grief that people who believe in the Biblical story of creation get from everyone else.

. Lysenko appears to be foundational in a Soviet-style system. Since science appears to follow politics (heck, even diet can), the full lifestyle afforded by political belief systems appears to be baked into the cake of humanity. It's worth considering how your own political biases leak into all aspects of life.

[Todd Juvinall]

Now it appears Heidi Hall had a .22 in her bloodstream when arrested for a DUI. Is there a different response to the liquor for a woman as opposed to a man?

[ScenesFromTheApocalypse]

re: ToddJ@7:24AM

Huh. It turns out that google search is actually good for something.

Gender Differences in Moderate Drinking Effects
https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh23-1/55-64.pdf

So here's a question. If one gender is more easily impaired, should it's blood alcohol limits be set lower?

I suppose it's sort of like wondering whether there shouldn't be gender based pricing on health insurance or gender adjustments on things like Social Security payments due to lifespan differences. You end up with perfectly justifiable ideas that simply aren't allowed, a kind of thoughtcrime really.

[Todd Juvinall]

You cannot make this stuff up!
Looks like the Pelline is pooping his pants about Barry Pruett's posts as well as mine on Heidi Hall. Now understand the FUE complains about how "podunk" the place is. He chose to move here! I am so sorry for him I can't hardly contain my laughter. But to move somewhere where the County Suoervsor, his pal, gets so drunk and is arrested and he refused to post his "opinions" on it is incredible. He complains about th smallest slight or makes nuance a method to denigrate local people. Yet here is his pal Heidi, drunk as a skunk making a mockery of herself and the community and he is "non-judgemental" and shares no opinion. So all I can say is he looks like a fool and we can all see why he is no longer employed here by our newspaper. Selsive outrage and selective "journalism". Sad day for the area.And it appears to me that Mr/ Pelline is now what he hates. A "good ol' boy"!

[ScenesFromTheApocalypse]

I wouldn't waste any time on Cartman, although his name made me wonder what the connection between intelligence and BMI might be.

Associations among height, body mass index and intelligence from age 11 to age 78 years
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5041406/

For all I know, the single biggest predictor of job performance or overall intelligence might be handedness.

I'd sure love to be in the DNA vs abilities biz and have access to 23andme's database. They certainly didn't design that company around the idea of providing you with ancestry or illness information, the long term plan is obviously to mine a truly large data set.

[George Rebane]

Everyone around here seems to know the definition of 'judgmental' except for me. I've been confused for years seeing how various people use that word so variously. Can someone offer a definition that would invite agreement from others? or is 'judgmental' another term like 'pornography'?

[Don Bessee]

It does seem there was a time when having good judgment was a desirable attribute. ;-)

[fish]

Posted by: ScenesFromTheApocalypse | 29 August 2017 at 10:00 AM

Your study explains many of the pathologies exhibited by that certain someone!

Body mass index (BMI) and intelligence appear to be negatively correlated, particularly in late adulthood [12–14]. However, rather than being attributable to common underlying mechanisms and parallel development, this relationship seems to be serial, although the direction of causation is disputed. Some suggest that obesity leads to vascular risk factors that cause or exacerbate neurodegeneration, thereby resulting in greater cognitive decline [14–16]. Others argue that more intelligent people generally maintain a more normal BMI, as they are more likely to eat a healthy diet and to exercise regularly [17–19]. Evidence for both accounts has been derived from longitudinal studies, for example Halkjær et al. [17] studied men in early adulthood (mean age 19 years) and again approximately 24 years later, and found that lower intelligence at baseline predicted increases in BMI and the development of obesity. On the other hand, Dahl et al. [15] found that being overweight at around age 40 years predicted greater cognitive decline after age 60 years. However, no previous studies have investigated the relationship between BMI and intelligence from childhood right through to late adulthood. Additionally, not all prior studies suggest that BMI and intelligence are related; for example, Benyamin et al. [4] observed no significant phenotypic correlation in children of the SMS1947.

[Bill Tozer]

Dr. Rebane @ 10:40 am. A definition of judgemental that would invite agreement? Come on Doc, we have already discussed your posts how liberal and conservative brains are wired differently. Hmm, if conservative and liberal brain organs process information differently, then it stands to reason that no mutually agreed upon by all definition is possible. Which brings up a question closer to the topic:

We all know that the brain can be measured, weighed, and held in Dr. Ben Carson's skilled hands. We know what parts of the brain triggers what responses. We have mapped the electric impulses in response to the 5 senses. But, if we can state with a degree of confidence that libs and conservative minds think differently as a whole, then why can't we state with a degree of confidence that male/female brains are different? Minor differences would be a start as any married man has struggled to live in peace with a wife whose brain functions differently than his as well as the shoe being on the other foot.

Don't judge? Well, then how can I pick who I will let in my humble abode or loan my car to without being judgemental? I was given brains to use. Not sure about my brethren across the aisle.

[George Rebane]

BillT 1146am - Well yes, Mr Tozer. My 1040am did not ask for a definition that both political sides might agree on, but simply a definition that would suit many people on one side, and similarly, perhaps, another definition that would suit people on the other side. Apologies for not being clear.

(And inclusion of stereotyping, pre-judging, prejudice, Bayesian priors, etc are not only permitted in such definitions, but invited.)

[Gregory]

I recall reading circa 2000 about a long term study of alumni from some Ivy league school. Detailed information was kept on one particular class... the only correlating issue for obesity in middle age onward was snoring as a young man.

Bingo. Yes, dear friends, obstructive sleep apnea isn't just a result of obesity, it's apparently a cause and yes, sleep deprivation and low blood O2 saturation when sleeping really can effect intellectual performance. It can also kill.

Studies, like those cited above, that don't correct for diagnosed and undiagnosed OSA are suspect.

[ScenesFromTheApocalypse]

"Studies, like those cited above, that don't correct for diagnosed and undiagnosed OSA are suspect."

or a hundred other things, a thyroid researcher would build a case around something in their domain. Usually, it seems like the main problems I see are small sample sizes (18 college students were tested for xxx).

Now that I think of it, the main problem with most studies is that readers take a bit of the result,and build a story around it. That story is put in a blog, quoted, requoted, and turns into deep knowledge about most anything you care to name.

Come to think of it, I read this article about Putin that sez he's a really bad man and made President Trump get frisky with some prostitutes while they had cocktails and planned to cause more global warming.

Of course, we could always get George run out of town.

https://www1.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/30years/Rushton-Jensen30years.pdf

[Gregory]

"or a hundred other things"- Scenes

Of course. But if it's a "height to weight appropriate" person looking for reasons to feel superior to the obese (especially the super obese like Jeffie), all sorts of moral and physical superior qualities will be found.

Now... back to Heidi Hall.

I drink, therefore I am. I drink fairly regularly but rarely to excess and were I to get to a .22 (no, I've never been stopped by LEA and given a breath test), I doubt I could make it out the door and into a car. Ms. Hall had to have been working for hours to get her BAC that high.

In Hall's case, I can't help but think she's probably been drinking and driving impaired for quite some time and if she wasn't stumbling and slurring her words enough at .22 to get someone to persuade her into a cab, she's very possibly a well practiced drunk. I'm going to guess this was a cheap wake up call, cheap in that no one got physically hurt.

You right wingers looking for advantage, it probably won't happen. A heartfelt mea culpa will do.

[ScenesFromTheApocalypse]

re: Gregory@2:23PM

Drunk driving is kind of like ants. If you see one, there's a hundred. I never thought of Ms. Hall as a Party Gal though, I think that Mr. Tozer needs to pivot from the Hillary Express to the Heidi Monorail.

.22 lol. DAMMIT OCCIFER, DON"T YOU KNOW WHO I AM! The legal system grinds people pretty finely, so that situation can get put to bed. I can't say that I care much.

Height vs intelligence is a cleaner study, since there's little in the way of lifestyle issues aside from child poverty, and that's easy enough to correct for. That one study was in Scotland, so hopefully they left gingers out of it (always trouble). Maybe what Google needs to do is exclusively hire tall wimmin.

[Russ]

How science got women wrong

Why the view that women are gentle, caring and empathetic, whereas men are strong, rational and dominant, is misguided

https://medium.economist.com/how-science-got-women-wrong-c67385f5d107

Yet scientists keep searching for sex differences in the brain, these days with imaging machines that measure brain activity. This line of research relies on human eyes looking for patterns, and also on imperfect technology (scans of a dead fish have shown dots of “activity” in its brain). Such studies grab headlines when they juxtapose cherry-picked images of male and female brains that look dramatically different from each other. Any links to behaviours or proclivities are purely speculative, yet the media like the fiction.

In fact, no two brains are the same: each is a mosaic of features, some of which are more common in men and others in women. According to one analysis of studies on sex differences in the brain, the proportion of people whose brains had purely masculine or feminine features was between zero and 8%.

[ScenesFromTheApocalypse]

"Why the view that women are gentle, caring and empathetic, whereas men are strong, rational and dominant, is misguided"
...
"In fact, no two brains are the same: each is a mosaic of features, some of which are more common in men and others in women."

So there's some other set of features that are gender oriented?

[George Rebane]

Brain imagery alone does not reveal the complete range of gender-related factors such as inter-neuron topology and the so-called activation functions of the neurons (e.g. the sigmoid activation functions that serve well in today's ANNs).

[Gregory]

" So there's some other set of features that are gender oriented?"

Scenes, think natural "Roid Rage". Bathe the brain in testosterone and other androgens and see what happens.

[fish]

Posted by: Gregory | 30 August 2017 at 10:52 AM

Bathe the brain in testosterone and other androgens and see what happens.

Or pickle it in estrogen …….and everybody know what happens!

[Bonnie McGuire]

Fish Aug 30 11:11AM

So funny and true!