On Immigration and ‘S#!thole Countries’ (updated 13jan18)

George Rebane

No matter what he actually said in that White House meeting on immigration policy, President Trump has again focused a policy discussion on a crux of the matter instead of continuing the same ol’ same ol’ circling of the barn.  I don’t want to debate whether he actually said “shithole country” as the press is attributing, but I hope he did if it gets us off the dime in deciding who should be let in to serve America’s interests as a sovereign and sustainable nation-state.

Because this is a family-oriented blog (hah!), and in the ensuing discussion we will want to continue using that colorful descriptor without gratuitously sprinkling dirty words all over these pages, I will use the three-letter acronym SHC in the sequel for both expedience and, perhaps, collateral decorum.  Nevertheless, the meaning of that appellation will be made and should remain clear.

Instead of working on a more polished commentary, I decided to quickly anchor my contribution to the topic in a structured list of propositions that I believe are also embraced more or less by other conservetarians.  If they are also Bayesians like me, then their beliefs of the following will range from near zero (impossible) to near unity (certain), and in the process never saying never for either extreme.

Before sallying forth, what Trump really meant to say instead of SHC is ‘third world country’ as pointed out by a reader under the recent ‘Scattershots’, who also provided a link to the UN’s list of third world countries (here).  However, on closer inspection ‘third world country’ does not quite capture the more specific and richer concept of a SHC since not all third world countries are SHCs and some, even European, second world countries (e.g. Belarus and Albania) are SHCs.  Onward to the propositions in no particular order –

1. No broadly based social benefits can be maintained by a nation without strong economic growth.
2. Low or stagnant economic growth leads to unrest and authoritarian cum tyrannical governance (always instigated ‘for the common good’).
3. While case-by-case implementation of public policies is desirable, no country has the resources to sustainably provide that. Therefore, laws regulations, codes are crafted and enforced on the basis of aggregate descriptors of the governed cohorts.
4. There is no historical evidence that desirable and transplantable social orders can survive within stagnant economies (i.e. such benevolent stasisms are popular in fairy tales and myths).
5. America was founded primarily on the extension and spread of western culture. When formerly we welcomed immigrants, it was understood that the arriving “wretched refuse” departed from the “teeming shores” of Europe.  No one then wanted to throw open our doors to Asians, Africans, Latinos, or even the swarthy people of the Mideast and Arab countries.
   • Therefore, race (i.e. physical appearance) was the easy aggregate descriptor used to define and expediently sort out the desirables from the undesirables.
6. Sentient life (i.e. critters that can remember and form pictures of likely futures) exhibits Bayesian behaviors. They decide things on the basis of prior experience (personal and learned knowledge) and aggregated evidence (e.g. in the form of summarizations and/or learned stereotypes).
7. Individual freedoms within a cohort or community are always a tradeoff within some acceptable level of security, given the level of perceived danger. Corollary – freedom and security are zero-sum benefits within a social order.
8. A culture is identifiable as a collection of beliefs and behavioral norms held dear and valued by a given population. Beliefs include a common ontology and shared view of the past (history).  Behaviors include language, dress, social practices (commercial, familial, entertainment, …).  The overarching purpose is to live in a selectively supportive society that allows members to reliably predict each other’s behaviors.  Different cultures have adopted different tradeoffs between individual freedoms and social security.  Cultures should be viewed as implementations of collectively held social insurance for a secure and predictable future, whose premiums paid by the beneficiaries are the publicly visible cultural norms they practice.
9. SHCs are countries that inhabit the repressive, ignorant, stagnant, and economically poor end of the spectrum of nations. Most SHCs can be found among what are commonly identified as third world countries, with some seen as second world countries.
10. People tend to help the poor and needy, not so much with the expectation to eliminate poverty and need, but to confirm ourselves as participating members of a benevolent social order that will also nurture us should our fortunes fail. In short, more of that social security insurance.
11. Nature abhors universal definitions of ‘good’ (i.e. utility). All utilities (measures of ‘good’) are in some fashion localized, and the more localized, the more achievable.  In the natural order, local achievements network naturally to create greater and mutually supportive communities of commonly held good (i.e. supporting the increase of a more comprehensive utility).
12. Enforced multi-culturalism does not work. Peaceful cultures compete and naturally evolve through mutually beneficial intercourse.  In war stronger cultures destroy, deform, and/or disperse weaker cultures.
13. No successful country has ever intentionally attracted or established lasting counter-cultures within its domain. Successful immigration has always involved importation of industrious and assimilating foreigners.  (Possible exception: Peter the Great inviting Germans to bring west European culture to the Russian countryside, develop commerce, and manage agricultural estates.  However, the norm is more like the attitudes Mexico, Switzerland, and Saudi Arabia have toward immigration.)
14. Humans, individually and as members of established groups, are measurably different. In short, we can forensically identify unique individuals and groups.
15. A litmus test for SHC qualification is that its citizens overwhelmingly want to emigrate.

[13jan18 update]  Not much on immigration debate has come from the Left, and that specifically includes the local Left as witnessed by the comment stream below.  Now one of their leading lights – our political cartoonist RL Bob Crabb – has entered the fray with his contribution.  In other more measured offerings Mr Crabb laments on the polarization and quality of debate in the land, seeking always to promote himself as the voice of bipartisan and dispassionate reason astride the mindless froth that issues from both sides of the proverbial road.  I suppose in his tally, offerings like the one below are not included. Another commenting reader in an exuberant expression of joyous approval of Mr Crabb has appended “Nailed it!!!”  Such is the nature of our national dialogue.

Comments

[George Rebane]

Administrivia - I invite readers to repost their cogent comments on the SHC brouhaha into this comment stream. Thank you.

[Walt]

For a LIB rag, SFGate has a moment of sanity?
http://www.sfgate.com/news/politics/article/The-Latest-Trump-defends-immigration-stance-in-12493146.php
Just giving credit when due.
It looks like DICK Durbin is the only one who heard "shit hole".
Why am I not surprised?

[Robert Cross]

wrong Walt.. Durbin is the only one with enough guts to speak out while Ryan and the others boot lickers just look the other way. some people will believe anything the liar in chief says....#sad

[Todd Juvinall]

Durbin is a known liar. No creds. Ryan tells the truth.

[Todd Juvinall]

Rasmussen for PE. Trump minus 7. He is at 46 plus 53 neg.

[Bill Tozer (moi)]

The SHC cesspool comment wax Trump asking what are all THESE countries doing in the fine print as he flipped pages skimming over our elected representatives’ proposals. Trump has read a lot of legal mumbo jumbo doublespeak in his day.

Beginning to feel some remote parts of our Southern Border are sorely in need of The Wall.... fence, electronic survelliance, more patrols, air support, whatever it ends up being.. Not for the human flow as such, but for drug interdiction. Lots of leaks, with a couple of huge gapping gaps where only the brave dare to trod.

[George Rebane]

It will be interesting to see whether our liberal commenters will be able to discuss the SHC dust-up with respect to immigration policy, or just continue ragging on Trump (which, of course, is their forte).

[Walt]

Sure bobby,, whatever ya' say.
So all the other LIBS in the room have peas for testis?
No,, DICK was looking to start another fight. Anything to try and save face. Trump must have been winning the deal.( Now DICK could never allow that)
LIBs lie... That's what they do.

[Scenes]

From the SF Gate article:

"Trump questioned at a White House meeting Thursday why the U.S. would accept more immigrants from Haiti and Africa than from places like Norway."

That's a helluva good question and really the crux of the matter. Is immigration to the US an unlimited and open ended welfare plan? or something that is constructed to benefit the country?

Trust Trump to ask the real question that everyone else has always wondered.

re: Haiti. You have to admire a place that not only the US but the Dominican Republic feels obliged to defend itself against immigration. It's not utterly destitute of course. See: Foundation, Bill Hillary & Chelsea Clinton.

Well, maybe it is now.
-----------------------

A side note for GRebane: Check this one out:

https://www.ajlunited.org/

More of that sweet sweet grant money for someone. I've always been in the wrong business.
I'm starting to keep an eye out on the various groups that want to install stronger bias knobs on machine learning. This should be entertaining.

[Bill Tozer (moi)]

Other findings in the report:

Immigrants are more likely to be working than their native-born neighbors. The report found that 87% of immigrant households had at least one worker, compared to 76% for native households.
The majority of immigrants using welfare come from Central America, Mexico and the Caribbean. The use of welfare is lower for immigrants from East Asia (32%), Europe (26%) and South Asia (17%).
Immigrants who have been in the U.S. more than 20 years use welfare less often, but their rates remain higher than native-born households.

Oh yeah, the report. Hop to Figure 2. for gist of the matter.

https://cis.org/Report/Welfare-Use-Immigrant-and-Native-Households

[Scenes]

An article I ran into while looking up something else. Defense in depth for borders, I had never really thought about it.

Wait—What are US Border Patrol Agents Doing in the Dominican Republic?
For the US, “homeland security” is hardly limited to the homeland.

https://www.thenation.com/article/wait-what-are-us-border-patrol-agents-doing-dominican-republic/

It's an Obama-era effort, so it is considered 'good' rather than 'bad' Trump policies.

[Paul Emery]

There are two issues here. One, as George outlines in this post about our immigration policy and the other the appropriateness of Trumps comments yesterday. I will be addressing the latter. It is my view that the Republicans should be asking for Trumps resignation for conduct unbecoming a President. Here's what some Republicans have said about his unbelieveable Ahit hole countries comments

House Speaker Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) called Trump’s comments “very unfortunate” and Sen. Marco Rubio posted a long Twitter thread about the many ways Haitians have made an impact in the U.S.

“This behavior is unacceptable from the leader of our nation,” Love, whose parents immigrated from Haiti to the U.S., said in a statement Thursday.

“My parents came from one of those countries but proudly took the oath of allegiance to the United States and took on the responsibilities of everything that being a citizen comes with,” she added. “They never took a thing from our federal government.”

Rep. Carlos Curbelo took a softer approach, tweeting his support for individuals under temporary protected status and asking the White House to explain the context behind Trump’s comment.

"The men and women who have status under the TPS program are among the most humble and hard working in our country. They improve quality of life in our communities and many Americans depend on them to support family life.

Under no circumstances is it acceptable to degrade, denigrate, or dehumanize #TPS immigrants. The White House must immediately explain the situation and leave no doubt regarding what was said and in what context.

Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (R-Fla.)

Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen took to her local media to air frustrations with Trump’s comments. She tweeted: “The president calling #Haiti a ‘shithole country’ ignores the contributions thousands of Haitians made to our #SoFla community and nation.”

Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah)

“I look forward to getting a more detailed explanation regarding the President’s comments. Part of what makes America so special is that we welcome the best and brightest in the world, regardless of their country of origin.”

Rep. Mike Coffman (R-Colo.)

Rep. Mike Coffman issued a statement late Thursday celebrating the accomplishments of Colorado’s diverse immigrant communities, “from El Salvador to Ethiopia.”

“The President could learn a thing or two from them,” Coffman said.

Rep. Erik Paulsen (R-Minn.)

Rep. Erik Paulsen called Trump’s remarks “completely inappropriate” and said the White House should issue an apology.
She later told CBS Miami that “no country deserves to be called a ’shithole. It is completely inappropriate for the President to refer to other countries in the manner in which he reportedly did, especially given the circumstances and disasters that led many TPS immigrants to seek refuge and shelter in the US"

Jeff Flake

The words used by the President, as related to me directly following the meeting by those in attendance, were not “tough,” they were abhorrent and repulsive.
Former Republican National Committee Chair Michael Steele

Michael Steele, a conservative pundit who frequently appears on cable news, harshly rebuked Trump on Friday, saying the “evidence is incontrovertible” that the president is racist.

“There are a whole lot of folks like Donald Trump,” Steele said on MSNBC. “White folks in this country who have a problem with the browning of America. When they talk about [wanting] their country back, they are talking about a country that was very safely white, less brown and less committed to that browning process.”

More to follow

”

[Paul Emery]

So it appears that African immigrants are better educated than average American whites. This makes Trumps statement even more racist because there is no foundation based on truth.

"According to Census data, more than 43 percent of African immigrants hold a bachelor’s degree or higher -- slightly more than immigrants from East Asia. Nigerian immigrants are especially educated, with almost two-thirds holding college degrees -- a significantly higher percentage even than Chinese or South Korean immigrants. African immigrants are also very likely to hold advanced degrees, many of which are earned at U.S. universities. By many measures, African immigrants are as far ahead of American whites in the educational achievement as whites are ahead of African-Americans."

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-10-13/it-isn-t-just-asian-immigrants-who-excel-in-the-u-s-

[fish]

Posted by: Scenes | 12 January 2018 at 01:06 PM

It's an Obama-era effort, so it is considered 'good' rather than 'bad' Trump policies.

Funny that......!

[fish]

"Why Would We Come?" Norwegians Respond To Trump's Immigration Offer

You guys should consider inviting huge swaths of the third world.....let us know how everything works out!

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-01-12/why-would-we-come-norwegians-respond-trumps-immigration-offer

[Scenes]

re: Mr. Emery "So it appears that African immigrants are better educated than average American whites."

Pro tip. Honduras and Haiti (the primary countries that came up in Shitholegate) aren't in Africa. From a quote on an article

"The program also covers immigrants from Honduras, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan, Syria, and Yemen."

I doubt that your African PhDs are from Somalis or either Sudan. It turns out that the college grads are mostly Nigerians or Egyptians (a kind of honorary African I guess).

Pro-tip #2. Africa is a big place. It's made up of lots and lots of countries. Don't jump to conclusions on what was said or the context.

Heck, I'll make a deal on this. Any African with a bonafide PhD, something from a non-diploma mill, is welcome to apply to move here. Plus their wife and kids. No parents and third cousins.

[Scenes]

What I've always liked are the pics of the Spanish border with Africa (they do have one you know).

A whole bunch of university grads just waiting to move to Europe.

https://darkroom-cdn.s3.amazonaws.com/2014/10/RTR3PM41.jpg

http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/549c4d5f6bb3f7f07c175332-1200-632/rtr4aa4v.jpg

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/images/es-melilla-image01.jpg

My own feeling is that you are seeing the future of the First World generally in these pictures.

[Bill Tozer (moi)]

We still have not broached the unasked million dollar question: Can anybody tell me why letting in some of the most uneducated and unskilled on the planet is a good thing for the host country.

Trump called a spade a spade. Never seen a single Congressperson or senator gather up the kids, grab the suitcases, and say, “Let’s vacation in Haiti!” Then we are going to El Salvador and go exploring!”

[fish]

Posted by: Bill Tozer (moi) | 12 January 2018 at 02:10 PM

We still have not broached the unasked million dollar question: Can anybody tell me why letting in some of the most uneducated and unskilled on the planet is a good thing for the host country.

....muh diversity!

No....really Bill, and this is an area where Mr. Scenes and I differ, room temperature IQ immigrants will be reliable voters for the democrats (Please refer to discussions last year to restore the vote to felons and fast track the franchise to refugees and Dreamers) and to serve as a captive market for staples through EBT and other aid (again a reliable block for Team D).

Team stupid gets a pool of cheap, quiet and placid labor and again a larger market for American business.

The fact that it squeezes the middle class is merely a side bennie!

[Gregory]

Regarding the equality of Bachelor Farmers from Norway vs. Kenya posed by PaulE:

Once here, they are equal under the law. However, the Kenyan may arrive without any cash, illiterate in their own language (not to mention standard American English) and innumerate. Small rural farmers in Kenya have very low productivity, generating an income of about a dollar a day.

It's also unclear there'd be many Norwegians lined up to immigrate to the USA were it easier but it isn't zero.

The New Colossus sonnet Punch quoted is lovely to modern white American ears but when it was written, there was a wide open country whose longtime inhabitants (the ones with ancestors who walked here) may have had something different to say about it. That was also a time when there was only charity one had to ask for, not an entitlement from the Federal or a state government and there was a hurdle at Ellis Island where the arriving huddled masses would get looked over, with many sent back.

Open borders, welfare state. Pick one. There was no welfare state in the USA when The New Colossus was written and so all were coming here knowing life would entail hard work.

[fish]

Posted by: Scenes | 12 January 2018 at 02:05 PM

My own feeling is that you are seeing the future of the First World generally in these pictures.

See Sailers "Most Important Graph in the World"!

[Paul Emery]

The Republicans should be calling for Trumps resignation for his lack of moral leadership.

[Walt]

SOOoooo.. Just who are these "others"?
“In regards to Senator Durbin’s accusation, we do not recall the President saying these comments specifically but what he did call out was the imbalance in our current immigration system, which does not protect American workers and our national interest,” they said in a statement.

The “shithole” remarks were first reported by the Washington Post on Thursday, and attributed to “several people briefed on the meeting” and “people familiar with the meeting.”

OK Paul,, get busy. Find out who these un-named "several people" are.. We know whom DICK is.

[Walt]

OH.. Paul.. Since when do LIBs care about morals?(nice try)

[Paul Emery]

Do you doubt he used that language Walt? Is that you;re retort?

What's your response to this?

The words used by the President, as related to me directly following the meeting by those in attendance, were not “tough,” they were abhorrent and repulsive.
Former Republican National Committee Chair Michael Steele

[Paul Emery]

Now this from RR's favorite judge

""Judge" Napolitano told Fox News that Trump deserves all the criticisms he receives by calling other countries "shitholes," that have mostly non-white populations and that he's sunk to a new low.

During today's Fox News' Special Report with Bret Baier, the immigration reform meeting and the explosive Washington Post story detailing Trump frustratingly calling Haiti, El Salvador and Africa, "shitholes" came up during their "All-Star" Panel.....
Napolitano said, "I've known him for thirty years, I know him well, I like him and admire him but this is a new low."

He continued, "The language, the racial implications are reprehensible and he deserves the criticism he's going to get." "

[Scenes]

"The words used by the President, as related to me directly following the meeting by those in attendance, were not “tough,” they were abhorrent and repulsive.
Former Republican National Committee Chair Michael Steele"

Steele is a professional politician, not a speaker of succinct truths. It comes with the territory. The Prez isn't a Republican anyway, so no skin off his nose.

Now you've got me thinking. Is there a worse place than Haiti?

Behold it's border. This really is a pure play in the failure of a people. Heck, there's only 11M people living there. The US could annex the place and put up a tent city in the KVMR lobby. The chubby white people could share their lunches.

https://blog.kulikulifoods.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/haiti_deforestation.jpg

as an aside (so Paul, don't read this part), Haiti strikes me as a worthy of serious study. The history (ethnic, political, economic) of the place vs. it's next door neighbor fairly cries out for comparison. Of course it's a s***hole, duh, but just exactly why?

[Todd Juvinall]

Trump denies he said those words and is backed up by Cotton and Perdue. Only Durbin says he did it. And I don't think anyone should believe Durbin. But Paul does as usual.

[Todd Juvinall]

And Trump is at 46% favorable. Gotta be frosting Paul Emery's sh**hole.

[George Rebane]

PaulE 318pm et qui ante - Your response to the invitation of my post was predictable and is not a surprise. For those with policy deficits, the Trump Derangement Syndrome is a comforting siren song, absolving the enticed from ever having to consider anything else when it comes to this president and the epoch of his administration. The real tragedy is in the scale of the country's susceptibility to be diverted from the complex and relevant to the simplistic and spurious. The Left's decades long manipulation through our schools and the media have produced the population apprehended by Ben Franklin and identified by Steve Allen.

[Scenes]

"Trump denies he said those words and is backed up by Cotton and Perdue."

Bummer. It amused me to have the President say something that practically everyone thinks. It's refreshing.

In any case, it's pretty hard to govern when everything you say in a private meeting is immediately leaked to the press (or invented and leaked to the press).

Just imagine sticking a microphone on anybody on this blog over the last few decades and throwing it on youtube. There's bound to be a few ex-wives out there somewhere.

[Paul Emery]

George

Do you deny Trump said those words? Also what importance do you give to moral leadership and example for the President of the United States?

[fish]

Posted by: Scenes | 12 January 2018 at 03:33 PM

It amused me to have the President say something that practically everyone thinks. It's refreshing.

Indeed! Hated to see him walk them back!

[Gregory]

What word would LBJ have used in what he thought was a private and closed meeting?

[George Rebane]

PaulE 334pm - I don't want to dance this dance with you; for me it is pointless. I have already explained why I wish that Trump did indeed say those words. Read my commentary. Trump is illuminating some added and very necessary dimensions to the nation's moral leadership; saying what a majority of the people think and say among themselves. It may also herald progress toward the sunset of political bullshit.

[Walt]

Ahhh. Paul's favorite line these days. " Do you deni"
That's getting real old Paul. Tell ya' what curmudgeon,, find three other people that says he did. LIB lies come back to bite.
I sure as hell hope he did. Facts are facts.
You soapboxed last night about your "friends" who moved here from "over there". You took offence to "shithole".. Then why in hell did they leave? Did I miss your response? One leaves for better digs!

I have been in some third world shitholes in my life.( thanks Uncle Sam.) How bout you Paul? In More than one, you can smell it before you ever see it.

[Paul Emery]

OK George

You position ios very clear that it's ok for Trump to use racist references to express himself. Sad

[Walt]

One more for Paul,,, Paul!! DO YOU DENY SHITHOLE COUNTRIES EXIST???

[Paul Emery]

Yes

[fish]

Posted by: Gregory | 12 January 2018 at 03:37 PM

What word would LBJ have used in what he thought was a private and closed meeting?

Something colorful I would guess!

[Paul Emery]

This was not exactly a private meeting of friends but a meeting of Senators gathered to talk about policy. Not exactly a "locker room" situations.

[Walt]

Thanks Paul for proving you have not a clue about what your talking about. Better buy extra carbon credits. You just exceeded your limit of bovine gases.

[Todd Juvinall]

So the democrats want to extend the temporary visas of those from Haiti and El Salvador because they say the countries are hell holes and returning there put these people at risk. And then when Trump agrees the countries are shitholes the same democrats complain. Regular Americans get it. We think what Trump stands for as just fine and his policies are great. Liberals and snowflakes are simply in the minority on this.

[Scenes]

Raheem Kassam Blasts Sky News, Sadiq Khan Over 'Shithole London'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBMoQRaQ-GY

[Walt]

This is just the next game Proggys want to play. Collusion with Russia failed, so tricky DICK pulls this stunt. Only DICK seems to have heard the words. Still the other "unnamed sources" have yet to back him up.
This where the sore losers flip over the game board.

[Gregory]

Punchy 243, there you go again. He didn't get elected to be the moral leader of the country.

I do find it interesting to see the 46% on Rasmussen today... probably didn't catch the SHC brouhaha. Monday will be the next one, released at about 630 Pacific time.

Let's celebrate my favorite Somali, Iman, David Bowie's widow, born in Mogadishu. Somalia may be a SHC but that isn't a denigration of any particular Somali... just the SH that the country has become.

Here's some of a National Review op-ed:

But that doesn’t mean there aren’t profound geography-related differences in how successful our immigrants are. The UN Human Development Index, the most widely accepted metric for how not like a well — you know what — a given country is, ranks Norway (the country Trump mentioned he wanted more immigrants from), as No. 1 in the world. El Salvador ranked 117th. Haiti was 163rd, and every single one of the 25 countries ranked below it (with the exception of the garden spots of Afghanistan and Yemen) was in Africa. All other things being relatively equal, why shouldn’t we want immigrants from countries with healthy functioning societies that are doing well, people who have grown up enmeshed in strong institutions—rather than some of the world’s most impoverished and dysfunctional places?

...

We’re outraged like Donald Trump was when he saw the truly offensive deal conjured up by Senators Graham, Flake and Gardner in conjunction with Democratic leaders that would give mass amnesty (far beyond DACA) in exchange for a pitiful charade of border security. He’s outraged that these senators would betray GOP voters and interests when, even in his weaker moments, he’s always declared (as he tweeted last night) that building a wall, moving to merit-based immigration, and ending the visa lottery and chain migration are mandatory components for the amnesty deal for DACA. The scandal here isn’t Trump’s predictably profane tongue—it’s that Senators Graham, Flake and Gardner would dare to show him this s***hole of an amnesty deal, in blatant defiance of the core issue positions that led the GOP to 100 year-high legislative majorities, and expect him to bless it.

[Paul Emery]

Todd

Calling African countries and Haiti Shit holes and comparing the desirability of their citizens as unfit to immigrate to this country with the people of Norway being desirable is totally racist and disgusting. All of RR's bloggers should condemn Trump rather than support his racism.

[Gregory]

Paul, it was a private meeting. If one was not invited, one did not have a seat at the table. And there were no reporters present, no recordings have surfaced, audio or video.

[Paul Emery]

Yes it was private in that it was not open to the public but it was work product related to the President and elected senators. It was funded and provided for by us taxpayers and was official business.

[Walt]

Paul will only believe Proggys. No matter how big the lie.
Let's take a collection for Paul to take a trip to Haiti.
Just one week should do it. He can report first hand on shitholegate.

[Gregory]

It turns out Trump met with the PM of Norway the day before, and that may be why he had Norway on his mind.

There are a number of SHC's in Africa, in the Americas, in Asia. Not so many in Europe.

It's official: Punchy is a SHC Denier. 3:57PM

Paul, your lack of balance is showing; Trump *didn't* say (nor is anyone here saying) everyone from a SHC (like porn, difficult to precisely define but I know it when I see it) is unfit, nor that everyone from a Norway is a desirable immigrant. Trump wanted to see more from countries like Norway (ranked number 1 by the UN's human development index) than folks from SHC's that are far below the USA standards of living.

More Imans from Somalia, but not their pirates.

[Paul Emery]

What exactly did he meant Gregory by calling black countries shitholes and holding up Norway like a shining star?

[Gregory]

What black countries did he call shitholes, Paul? Did he call all black countries shitholes? Not that I can see.

Norway is a shining star, Paul. The polar opposite of a SHC. So sayeth the UN HDI.

[Walt]

But Paul!! Norway is Monarchy. Now you complain? You love Kings.

You have never been to Africa Paul, so who are you to judge?
Because IF you had been,,, well, you know....

[Paul Emery]

What countries was he referring to Gregory?

[Walt]

Email the President and ask.(Good Lord.....)

[Gregory]

You tell me, Paul. You are the one who claimed he was using race as a determinant for SHC status.

[Paul Emery]

Gregory

So you are calling Senator Durbin a liar.

[Bill Tozer (moi)]

Well, if Punchie thinks there are no countries that are indeed realm shitholes, end of story. That’s his right and his opinion. I believe our globe has too many SHCs. SHC there are, shithole countries they be.

In general, Somali immigrants are quite poor candidates for immigration to the US because the country has a defunct/non existent wide spread educational system, the health of its citizens is poor, and the populace is akin to the uneducated Kenyan farmer. We welcome Nigerian immigrants, in general, because Nigerian immigrants are highly educated. Very educated. Many to choose from.

Still cannot figure out why the Left pushes to bring into America the least educated and least skilled impoverished folks that walk upon the face of the Earth from SHC. SHC citizens are trying to escape their SHCs, but their SHC’s culture. Their countries’ societies have failed. Civil societies are we know it may not even exist in many SHC.

Sounds more akin to a refugee program than a sensible long term immigration policy.

Isn’t Lybia an African country? I thought so. Libya is a real Shit Show.

http://dailycaller.com/2018/01/12/flashback-that-time-obama-called-libya-a-st-show

[Paul Emery]

So Bill Trump must have specific countries he regards as shit holes and we shouldn't allow people from those countries to immigrate. Is that a fair assumption

[Gregory]

What did Durbin say, Paul?

Were his lips moving?

[Todd Juvinall]

Paul Emery | 12 January 2018 at 04:28 PM

Not racist at all. We had 420 Norwegians immigrate last year. We had 23,000 Haitians. So it appears claims of racism are way out of line as more brown and black people comes here than from anywhere else. So your premise is total BS. So it appears to me Paul Emery is in line with the democrats that America has to import the world's poor and uneducated and give them all a democrat voter registrations card. That is the bottom line and all your leftwing blather is a lie.

[Robert Cross]

Speaking of shithole countries. you know.. the kind with corrupt immoral leaders who act like dictators. the Groper in chief, Donald trump, President of the USA, is now the ADULTERER IN CHIEF.. according to WSJ . Probably fakes new from one od your favorite sources.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-stephanie-clifford-payment_us_5a591ad1e4b0fcbc3a100202?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

[George Rebane]

re PaulE 440pm - Yes, the now notorious SHC meeting was "funded and provided for by us taxpayers and was official business". And so is EVERYTHING that goes on in the Oval Office and everywhere in the White House, save perhaps, the president's private quarters. There had to be a point in there somewhere, otherwise such an observation should not be hoisted to be on par with the more notable epiphanies that often decorate these pages.

[Paul Emery]

Here you go Gregory. Sorry you missed Durbins words

"He (Trump) said, 'Haitians. Do we need more Haitians?' Then he went on and started to describe the immigration from Africa that was being protected in this bipartisan measure. That's when he used these vile and vulgar comments, calling the nations they come from 'shitholes.' The exact word used by the President. Not just once but repeatedly. That was the nature of this conversation."

[Scenes]

BillT: "Sounds more akin to a refugee program than a sensible long term immigration policy."

Game, set, match.

Everyone can go home now. The rest of the thread will be some sort of clucking about GEOTUS.

New topic please.

[Account Deleted]

Oh - this is proceeding as I expected. Trump asks a question and the left can't answer so they start pounding their shoes on the table. Trump said nothing racist at all. Look folks - South Korea is a vibrant, prosperous country. North Korea is a SHC (from hell, I might add). Same ethnic people. Trump was referring to countries, not skin colors. Plenty of white folk hail from SHCs. As far as Paul thinking this is some huge lapse in moral leadership, all I can say is Paul must have a pretty serious lump on his head as he has obviously just fallen from the last turnip truck to pass through Nevada County. I hope he did say SHCs and the rest of you pearl clutchers can pound sand. Trump asked a question - can Paul answer? No - just call people names.
Trump is our president, Paul. And all of your dire predictions have proven false. No concentration camps - no stock market crash - no war. What to do? Just keep screeching and screeching as Trump says what everyone thinks.

[Paul Emery]

Yeah Robert. Now it's coming out that he paid off porn stars to keep their mouth shut. Nice picture of Trump with Porn Star Stormy Daniels who Trump allegedly paid $130,000 according to the Conservative Wall Street Journal.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-lawyer-arranged-130-000-payment-for-adult-film-stars-silence-1515787678
Here's more

"Adult actress Alana Evans claims porn star Stormy Daniels and Donald Trump invited her to their hotel room in a report that offered further corroboration of the Wall Street Journal‘s account earlier on Friday.
Report Advertisement

As The Daily Beast reported, Evans, a friend of Daniels’, said she received multiple calls from the fellow actress while she was in a room with Trump.

“Stormy calls me four or five times, by the last two phone calls she’s with Donald [Trump] and I can hear him, and he’s talking through the phone to me saying, ‘Oh come on Alana, let’s have some fun! Let’s have some fun! Come to the party, we’re waiting for you,'” Evans told the Beast.

She ultimately turned down the offer, but learned more about Daniels’ encounter with the real estate mogul the next day.

http://www.rawstory.com/2018/01/another-adult-film-actress-claims-stormy-daniels-and-trump-invited-her-to-their-hotel-room-report/

[Bill Tozer (moi)]

No Punchy,. That is your assumption, not a fair assumption. I said there are indded SHCs, something you do not believe exists. I have made it clear in previous posts to bring us the brightest and best, leave the rest

An immigrant is one who leaves his country, culture, and society to live in another country, culture, and society. Our immigration policy should be geared to those who are most likely to make the transition successfully by being the most prepared. The uneducated, illerate in his native tongue, unskilled, and impoverished Kenyan farmer is the least prepared for a transition to our culture, our society, our country...not to mention a smooth transition. What are the chances the “farmer” will seek, obtain, and secure gainful employment? What will he contribute to our modern connected society? Can the farmer even survive here without becoming a ward of the state? Guess we will never know because the farmer will be unable to scrap together the funds to travel to the good ole USA.

Bring us Kenya’s best, brightest, and line them up and we will look them over. It’s a seller’s market. Of course we grant Kenya’s top tier excelled English speaking students visas to attend our universities. That goes without saying.

As Sen. Lindsay Graham of the Gang of Eight said,

We have a Canadian border…. Why are we OK up there and not OK to the south?… Why is one a problem and the other is not? Because Canada is a place where people like to stay. They like Canada. We like Canada. We love to have them visit. They want to go home because it’s a nice place,” said Graham. “The people coming across the southern border live in hell holes. They don’t like that. They want to come here. Our problem is we can’t have everybody in the world who lives in a hell hole coming to America.”

Hell Hole, Shit Hole....both shorthand for “God forsaken place”

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jan/12/graham-called-mexico-other-countries-hellholes-201/

[Paul Emery]

By the way this was after Trump married the first lady.

[Scenes]

The ever moral Paul Emery sez:

"Now it's coming out that he paid off porn stars to keep their mouth shut."

That's not normally how it works, grasshopper.

[Walt]

No Paul. LIB LIES...Desperation setting in?
http://dailycaller.com/2018/01/12/trump-lawyer-releases-letter-from-porn-star-denying-affair-with-potus/

[Account Deleted]

"Now it's coming out that he paid off porn stars to keep their mouth shut."
First of all - if he did pay them, aren't they supposed to not say anything?
Hmmm?
Kinda ruins their credibility, doesn't it?
The Kennedys didn't have to pay off anyone - they either drowned or 'committed suicide'.
Way cheaper.

[Paul Emery]

I don't believe there are shit hole countries. There are people living in very difficult situations of poverty and desperation but these people do the best they can to love and take care of their families and try to live in dignity and peace. Calling their countries shit holes is disgusting and tragic especially when it comes from the President of the United States. The fact that RR contributors support Trumps disgusting behavior is beyond sad.

[Account Deleted]

Oh - St Paul is on his high horse. The leaders of the world for centuries are pure as driven snow and now we're stuck with Trump. Can anyone remember Paul complaining about the foul things that green libertarians have said and done?
Paul - looka-here. I don't approve of a lot of what Trump has or has possibly done. I also don't approve of people being called racist or NAZI just because you don't understand their point of view. It's crude and foul far beyond Trump calling SHCs "SHCs". Maybe you green libertarians can look in the mirror and clean up your foul mouths and your hateful attitudes before you come here and carp because you were wrong about what a Trump presidency would be like. The fact is you are frightened that after a while even the dimmest bulb will realize they are better off because of a Trump presidency. No matter what their skin color is.
And you still haven't answered Trump's question.

[Account Deleted]

" There are people living in very difficult situations of poverty and desperation but these people do the best they can to love and take care of their families and try to live in dignity and peace."
He didn't call them names, Paul - he was talking about their country. And BTW, Paul - the folks from those countries agree. That's why they want to leave.
Clean up your own mouth before you call folks names.

[Paul Emery]

Don't recall Trump asking me a question Gill. Can you refresh me?

[Paul Emery]

Don't recall Trump asking me a question Bill. Can you refresh me?

[Account Deleted]

That's because, Paul - you haven't got a clue about what's going on. Trump asked a question that not one single person has answered. Go ahead, Paul. Answer him.

[Paul Emery]

You are completly wrong Scott. He was talking about the people of those countries and their culture and how he thought they were not good enough to immigrate to America. You know that. How can you be so insensitive about the plight of good people.

[Paul Emery]

Why haven't you answered the "question" Scott if it's that important.

[Account Deleted]

"How can you be so insensitive about the plight of good people."
First of all, Paul - please state for me actual statements I have made that indicate I'm insensitive to the plight of good people.
And why do they want to immigrate to America led by a NAZI tyrant Paul? After all, their country is full of hard working, vibrant, ethnically diverse, intelligent, loving people?
Hmmmm?
Also Paul - answer Trump's question.

[Account Deleted]

I already know the answer, Paul. And so should you.
Answer the question, Paul.

[Paul Emery]

What is Trumps question that you won't answer Scott?

[Account Deleted]

Trump's question is the one that you are supposedly all upset about.
Hard to understand how you can be upset about Trump asking a question that you now claim you don't know.
The fact seems to be that Paul doesn't know what the hell is going on. He just repeats stuff he gets off the internet.
And where are those quotes from me that you claimed you had, Paul?
Hmmmm?

[Account Deleted]

And why are all these wonderful, loving, happy people wanting to come to live under evil Trump?
Hmmmm?

[Account Deleted]

Paul?
Paul?
Earth to Paul...

[Walt]

Well look who agree's with Trump.(if he actually uttered those words)
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/01/12/africans-endorse-president-donald-trumps-shithole-remarks/

Not what Paul wants to hear.

[Account Deleted]

Since Paul can't keep up on the news -
' "Why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here?” Trump said, according to these people, referring to African countries and Haiti. He then suggested the United States should instead bring more people from countries like Norway, whose prime minister he met Wednesday.'
And Paul is the 'news director' of KVMR. Claims he doesn't know what question it is that Trump asked.
As I mentioned - must be quite a lump on the head when he fell off of that turnip truck.
He keeps asking - "what question?" Sorta like Clark Gable going in and out of a coma in 'Run Silent, Run Deep' with the words - "what's that noise, sir - I can't make it out?"
Get some rest, Paul. You'll come around in a few months.

[Bill Tozer (moi)]

There are countries that are hell holes. The Dominican Republic shares the same land mass and same common heritage as Haiti, yet one country is relatively stable with civil liberties and the other is a Hell Hole. While Charlie Rangel vacationed at his condo in The Dominican, Haitians were fashioning and launching makeshift rafts to escape their Hell Hole. Quasi-democracy began to take hold in the Dominican in 1972, while Haiti languished under Papa Doc and Baby Doc. Different governments, different cultures, same land mass, same conquest by the Spaniards, same overthrowing and killing of their all their French slavemasters. The US Marines, for the first time in their long history, were sent in to clean up the rotting garage off the streets of Haiti.... because the Haitians could not/would not pick up their own trash. Not so with The Dominican. Same island, different culture.

Scott already brought up the Korean Peninsula. Two countries, two governments, two societies. Due to the big differences in the two governments, liberties, economic opportunities, and societies, there are now two cultures of the same race, same ethnicity, same heritage. North Korea is a Hell Hole, South Korea is not.

Crying worried mothers saying goodbye to their children and let unscrupulous criminals traffic their children northward to America to get out of the Hell Hole the mothers remain in. Cubans trying to escape their country are shot on sight or have their throats slashed and their family members remaining are then jailed and tortured. Another SHC.

Folks taking what they can carry besides the clothes on their backs escaping countries that disembowel, behead, torture, tie young prepubescent girls to beds to be gang raped day after day in Hell Holes. Not even talking Northern Africa...talking about El Salvador, a real Shit Hole, Hell Hole, and cultural Black Hole. MS-13 is simply a reflection of their culture. An extremely criminal violent criminal enterprise gang hailing from an extremely violent criminal enterprise government.

So, the only way ”help” all those trying to get the hell out of their Hell Holes and get them here is to have open borders? Oh, great plan. What possibly could go wrong?

Oppossing open borders makes me a racist, duh. Gee Wally, I haven’t heard that one ten thousand times before. I did not vote for Obama because I am a racist. I did not vote for Hillary because I am a misogynist and can’t handle having a woman in the White House. And I called North Korea a Shit Hole because I am a racist. There are four syllable words for folks like me and Trump, among two and three syllable words.

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/election-us-2016-37329812/clinton-half-of-trump-supporters-basket-of-deplorables

Guilty as charged!

[Account Deleted]

Sorry to pick on Paul but he was handy. It really is the question we are all asking.
Because all of the folks that Dems want to import to our shores are mostly illiterate, poor and used to being dependant on the govt. In other words, Democrats.
Why would the Democrats want to let in prosperous, literate, wealthy folk?
Because it wouldn't do them any good. The Dems don't care about what sort of impact the folks we let in have on hard working Americans because it's all about getting folks to vote Democrat. Period.
Paul might want to examine why it is that there are countries just bursting with hard working, vibrant, diverse, loving folk that after decades can't raise themselves out of the mud. He's looking for a bumper sticker or a poll that might explain that.
South Korea had the answer and North Korea did not. Maybe Paul can chime in as to why North Korea just didn't have enough Loving, Vibrant, Decent, Good Hearted Folk to get with the program.
But I'm not holding my breath. Paul says all sorts of things he can't back up. Like most all good green libertarians.

[Account Deleted]

How about Columbia and Venezuela? Maybe Bush made all of the loving, hard working, good hearted Venezuelans leave? Columbia used to be full of narcos and Venezuela was a oil soaked nation like Norway. Maybe Paul can 'splain what in heck happened?
Oh - I know - RACISM. Yeah - that's what happened. The Republicans splashed big dollops of RACISM on poor, poor, Venezuela and it became a SHC.
Where is Paul? He had a big expose on me as to how I was heartless and cruel towards loving and hard working folk that crawl on their knees through broken glass so they can eke out a living in their wonderful, vibrant, loving countries that Trump calls SHCs.
He's probably doing the research as we speak.

[Bill Tozer (moi)]

Well, looks like DACA is dead for now. They pissed off Trump. That DACA they put in front of Trump was the Dream Act Pkus, Plus, Plus. 850,000? Try 4.1 million. Botox is messing with Struggling Nancy’s disintegrating mind. She said 97% of the Dreamers served in our military or went to college. Hundreds of thousands joined our Armed Forces. Wrong. 900. Students? 25% stayed in school and enrolled in college....dropout rates unknown. And GET THIS: the number crunchers dug down and after all is said done, only 1.3 billion makes it to the Wall. No deal asshats.

Go ahead and shut down the government and hurt our military, Lefties. Be our guests. There will be a clean immigration bill. DACA is a perticular issue. We, as a nation, go back to our Judeao roots and do not like to hold a man guilty for the sins of his father. Something can be worked out for those who met the cutoff deadline, limited in scope, and do not extend it. Path to Citizenship, not path to Amnesty.

Oh, not holding them accountable from sins of their fathers? Sure. Does that also mean the whities are no longer held responsiblibe for the sins of their great great grandpappies? Sins like slavery.

You know...looking at stats, ending chain migration and E-verify is a bigger wall than anything that will be built. However, E-verify never made it to Trump’s desk...one of those ideas that never seems to make it off the drawing board decade after decade.

[Bill Tozer (moi)]

I am still debating within myself (due to Fish and Scenes) whether it’s all about a fresh crop of new Dem voters, all about the Lefties cutting off their noses to spite their faces just because to thirst a knife deeply into the hated R’s guts, about some true belief in Globalism, or just a blind hate of The United States for which she stands...America. Guess Globalism and hated of the USA for which she stands and a true worship of Globalism go hand in hand.

Maybe it’s all of the above, cloaked in compassionate progressivism.

[Don Bessee]

WOW, the po' ol' party parrot must be sitting at a bar group posting. A black kid in sosac gets ZERO teacher time because team 0's immigration policy burdened every school district in the country with dependents of the state. Dependents who cant write in their own language. The po' ol' fakenewsman is happy to take from the mouths of native born decedents of slaves! What a fucking POS RACIST position. :-(

[Walt]

Highly skilled is what's showing up? Show me a picture of someone in a business suit jumping the border.

[Paul Emery]

So you've answered Trumps question Scott. Thought you said nobody wanted to answer it.

If I can decipher your hyperbole you seem to be saying that the Dems want to import stupid people to our shores so they'll be dependent on the government and vote Democratic. Am I on the number with my translation Scott?

Trouble is that the numbers don't add up. First of all it will take years before they gain citizenship especially because they are dumb and stupid according to your analysis. Also the statistics of Africans becoming citizens shows that they become educated and useful members of society. Once again here's the link that shows that.

""According to Census data, more than 43 percent of African immigrants hold a bachelor’s degree or higher -- slightly more than immigrants from East Asia. Nigerian immigrants are especially educated, with almost two-thirds holding college degrees -- a significantly higher percentage even than Chinese or South Korean immigrants. African immigrants are also very likely to hold advanced degrees, many of which are earned at U.S. universities. By many measures, African immigrants are as far ahead of American whites in the educational achievement as whites are ahead of African-Americans."

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-10-13/it-isn-t-just-asian-immigrants-who-excel-in-the-u-s-

[George Rebane]

Why are we talking past each other? None of this HSC business has been about race. Everyone here right of center wants to have a merit based immigration system that serves our national interests. If that includes letting in passels of educated Africans, Asians, Latin Americans, ... then so be it. But the leftists can't accept this because they're so busy putting words into everyone else's mouths. Can anyone find anything in these comment streams that even comes close to promoting policies that keep people from legally immigrating to the US solely on the basis of their race?

[Paul Emery]

George

Trump contrasting people from Shit Hole countries which are decidedly Africans and Haitians and branding them as undesirable immigrants with Norwegians who were desirable was racist beyond question.

Are you one of those that believe Trump never said those things?