On Immigration and ‘S#!thole Countries’ (updated 13jan18)

George Rebane

No matter what he actually said in that White House meeting on immigration policy, President Trump has again focused a policy discussion on a crux of the matter instead of continuing the same ol’ same ol’ circling of the barn.  I don’t want to debate whether he actually said “shithole country” as the press is attributing, but I hope he did if it gets us off the dime in deciding who should be let in to serve America’s interests as a sovereign and sustainable nation-state.

Because this is a family-oriented blog (hah!), and in the ensuing discussion we will want to continue using that colorful descriptor without gratuitously sprinkling dirty words all over these pages, I will use the three-letter acronym SHC in the sequel for both expedience and, perhaps, collateral decorum.  Nevertheless, the meaning of that appellation will be made and should remain clear.

Instead of working on a more polished commentary, I decided to quickly anchor my contribution to the topic in a structured list of propositions that I believe are also embraced more or less by other conservetarians.  If they are also Bayesians like me, then their beliefs of the following will range from near zero (impossible) to near unity (certain), and in the process never saying never for either extreme.

Before sallying forth, what Trump really meant to say instead of SHC is ‘third world country’ as pointed out by a reader under the recent ‘Scattershots’, who also provided a link to the UN’s list of third world countries (here).  However, on closer inspection ‘third world country’ does not quite capture the more specific and richer concept of a SHC since not all third world countries are SHCs and some, even European, second world countries (e.g. Belarus and Albania) are SHCs.  Onward to the propositions in no particular order –

1. No broadly based social benefits can be maintained by a nation without strong economic growth.
2. Low or stagnant economic growth leads to unrest and authoritarian cum tyrannical governance (always instigated ‘for the common good’).
3. While case-by-case implementation of public policies is desirable, no country has the resources to sustainably provide that. Therefore, laws regulations, codes are crafted and enforced on the basis of aggregate descriptors of the governed cohorts.
4. There is no historical evidence that desirable and transplantable social orders can survive within stagnant economies (i.e. such benevolent stasisms are popular in fairy tales and myths).
5. America was founded primarily on the extension and spread of western culture. When formerly we welcomed immigrants, it was understood that the arriving “wretched refuse” departed from the “teeming shores” of Europe.  No one then wanted to throw open our doors to Asians, Africans, Latinos, or even the swarthy people of the Mideast and Arab countries.
   • Therefore, race (i.e. physical appearance) was the easy aggregate descriptor used to define and expediently sort out the desirables from the undesirables.
6. Sentient life (i.e. critters that can remember and form pictures of likely futures) exhibits Bayesian behaviors. They decide things on the basis of prior experience (personal and learned knowledge) and aggregated evidence (e.g. in the form of summarizations and/or learned stereotypes).
7. Individual freedoms within a cohort or community are always a tradeoff within some acceptable level of security, given the level of perceived danger. Corollary – freedom and security are zero-sum benefits within a social order.
8. A culture is identifiable as a collection of beliefs and behavioral norms held dear and valued by a given population. Beliefs include a common ontology and shared view of the past (history).  Behaviors include language, dress, social practices (commercial, familial, entertainment, …).  The overarching purpose is to live in a selectively supportive society that allows members to reliably predict each other’s behaviors.  Different cultures have adopted different tradeoffs between individual freedoms and social security.  Cultures should be viewed as implementations of collectively held social insurance for a secure and predictable future, whose premiums paid by the beneficiaries are the publicly visible cultural norms they practice.
9. SHCs are countries that inhabit the repressive, ignorant, stagnant, and economically poor end of the spectrum of nations. Most SHCs can be found among what are commonly identified as third world countries, with some seen as second world countries.
10. People tend to help the poor and needy, not so much with the expectation to eliminate poverty and need, but to confirm ourselves as participating members of a benevolent social order that will also nurture us should our fortunes fail. In short, more of that social security insurance.
11. Nature abhors universal definitions of ‘good’ (i.e. utility). All utilities (measures of ‘good’) are in some fashion localized, and the more localized, the more achievable.  In the natural order, local achievements network naturally to create greater and mutually supportive communities of commonly held good (i.e. supporting the increase of a more comprehensive utility).
12. Enforced multi-culturalism does not work. Peaceful cultures compete and naturally evolve through mutually beneficial intercourse.  In war stronger cultures destroy, deform, and/or disperse weaker cultures.
13. No successful country has ever intentionally attracted or established lasting counter-cultures within its domain. Successful immigration has always involved importation of industrious and assimilating foreigners.  (Possible exception: Peter the Great inviting Germans to bring west European culture to the Russian countryside, develop commerce, and manage agricultural estates.  However, the norm is more like the attitudes Mexico, Switzerland, and Saudi Arabia have toward immigration.)
14. Humans, individually and as members of established groups, are measurably different. In short, we can forensically identify unique individuals and groups.
15. A litmus test for SHC qualification is that its citizens overwhelmingly want to emigrate.

[13jan18 update]  Not much on immigration debate has come from the Left, and that specifically includes the local Left as witnessed by the comment stream below.  Now one of their leading lights – our political cartoonist RL Bob Crabb – has entered the fray with his contribution.  In other more measured offerings Mr Crabb laments on the polarization and quality of debate in the land, seeking always to promote himself as the voice of bipartisan and dispassionate reason astride the mindless froth that issues from both sides of the proverbial road.  I suppose in his tally, offerings like the one below are not included. Another commenting reader in an exuberant expression of joyous approval of Mr Crabb has appended “Nailed it!!!”  Such is the nature of our national dialogue.

Comments

[Walt]

Yes Paul,, be careful of what you "demand".
Someone just might go looking and find what you really don't want found. I'm in just that kind of mood today.

[Scenes]

I just love this kind of thing.

Feinstein speaks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJbB1gsjgbQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvRZdNoHEf8

[George Rebane]

Scenes 1246pm - Yes, indeed, whatever it takes, whenever it's needed. She even called them "illegal aliens". My how times have changed.

[Bill Tozer]

She even called them "illegal aliens". My how times have changed.

Guess that makes today’s dope dealer an “undocumented pharmacist.” Or, an unauthorized pharmacist. Hard to keep up with what’s going on when yuge events are being compressed into shorter time frames in rapid succession during The Reckoning.

Been thinking about something pre “fall from grace” Milo said about PC. He said (pre-Trump winning) that if we can hit PC now at is very height and influence, it will be a deathblow to which they will not recover.
When the dust settles, SHC may work it’s way into our modern culture lexicon......never know....

[Don Bessee]

HOLY CRAP!

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/01/14/pope-francis-fears-of-mass-migration-are-legitimate-and-fully-comprehensible/

Even the pope is falling in line. ;-)

[MAGA CoVfefe!]

ya po' ol' daytrader, “Having doubts and fears is not a sin,” he said. “The sin is to allow these fears to determine our responses, to limit our choices, to compromise respect and generosity, to feed hostility and rejection. The sin is to refuse to encounter the other, the different, the neighbour, when this is in fact a privileged opportunity to encounter the Lord.”

ya po' ol' paranoid xenophobes need to get a grip!!!

[Walt]

What? No one showing up to your "LIBS only" site? LOL!
Right MAGA "fear". (Yaa,, better look up what you call yourself first.) Go back to "clueless". Maybe just stick to "fefe".(now that fits....)

[Walt]

Since Paul stated "there are no SHCs" then there should be no gripe in sending them back.

[George Rebane]

Walt 321pm - That's an interesting point Mr Branson. I wonder how far you can take that notion with our liberal readers. As to calling them SHCs, I am inspired to pen the analogue of the bard's "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." Let's see, 'A SHC by any other name would ...'. Now come on gentlemen, help me out, don't be shy.

[Walt]

Why thanks Dr.R.. Chalk it up to my "broke clock" syndrome.
Have been "post mining" today. Loading up on ammo for the next round of "prove I said that". Seems just one was good enough to end that BS for today. No sign of Paul since.

[Bill Tozer]

Oh Walt.
I imagine our Popinjay is at the Wild and Scenic Film Festival..Probably watching some flick shot in some sh*thole country as we speak.

Are you ready to solve the puzzle? Helpful hint: no need to buy a vowel.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10210856835112636&set=p.10210856835112636&type=3&theater

[Don Bessee]

Imitation is still the sincerest form of flattery @308. ;-)

[Walt]

Bill.. I didn't realize that was going on. I bet weed is plentiful
for the event. (a sane person would need it to get through some of those.)

[Todd Juvinall]

The latest cartoon by local cartoonist RL Crabb is truly one of dreamed up in a muddled brain of drugs and alcohol. America lets in over a million people from many countries, some good, some shitholes. But to Crabmeat we are just a crummy country of racists if we say anything a liberal says is untoward about any country of origin. You cannot make this stuff up. If you believed his cartoon, we don't let anyone except Norwegians in and it because they are white. Even though it is a thousand to one we let in people of "color" or whitey. A brain on drugs, what a waste.

[Don Bessee]

Talk about not fitting the leftie narrative-

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/01/15/sen-rand-paul-president-trump-cares-deeply-about-haiti-financed-medical-mission-trip/

;-)

[Bill Tozer]

Not fitting the narrative?

Well, no wonder Punchy voted for Obama the first time. Obama was spot on. It’s a matter of fairness and respect. Respect those who was standing in line waiting to become immigrants and following the rules.

https://www.facebook.com/lastamericapatriots/photos/a.235087906641439.1073741826.235086849974878/982514928565396/?type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.217983685002343.55586.217926015008110/1238613679606000/?type=3&theater

[Bill Tozer]

@ 1:36 pm
Noticed the narrative is slowly changing from Trump is a racist to Trump is a bigot. Make whatever you will of it.

https://www.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.217983685002343.55586.217926015008110/1238611046272930/?type=3&theater

Au contraire, Ruth Bladder Ginsberg threatened to move to New Zealand.

https://www.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.217983685002343.55586.217926015008110/1238608852939816/?type=3&theater

Potty mouth! I am shocked I tell you, shocked.

https://www.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.217983685002343.55586.217926015008110/1238389709628397/?type=3&theater

[Don Bessee]

Well that's shitty thing to do-

http://www.breitbart.com/social-justice/2018/01/15/geller-another-hate-crime-hoax-police-find-no-evidence-of-random-scissor-attack-on-11-year-olds-hijab/

;-)

[x]

it's dumkopf!

[fish]

Denninger is a little over the top sometimes but he does a nice job demolishing Stockman here.....

"What?

Just a few inches above Stockman got done telling us that Democrats want lots of brown immigrants because they will vote for them, and their policies grant ever-greater handouts.

A nation full of immigrants that are tax sinks, which on balance all of these "brown" immigrants are, will not save anything. In fact they'll make it collapse faster and harder!

Look at just the public school cost in these areas of the country -- indeed, virtually everywhere. It's north of $10,000/year/pupil. This is an utterly-obscene amount of money and it means that for each new "immigrant" that is either a near-school-age child or any offspring they produce each of them causes the nation to go in the hole by nearly $250,000 before they graduate High School -- if they graduate.

Now add another $100 large on that for a 4-year college degree.

Both of these costs exist because the policy of unbridled and illegal immigration have led to extraordinary expenses that are mandated and the financialization of both events.

Remember too that the "payback" on that is not lifetime earnings -- it's taxes paid, discounted for the current value of the money. The odds of the average immigrant managing to pay taxes of $350,000 over the ensuing few years (remember, discounted cash value folks -- if it takes them 40 years then at a 3% discounted cash value they need to pay well north of a million dollars in tax) is effectively zero.

That is, statistically speaking exactly none of those immigrants will ever pay $1 million in taxes during their lifetime and that is without subtracting back out all of the tax-paid benefits beyond the age of 18 such as welfare, SNAP, Section 8 housing, Medicaid, Social Security and Medicare.

That there are a few you can point to who did (e.g. CEOs of companies such as Intel) today doesn't change the statistical reality, which is that you cannot fix this problem through importing people from third-world ****holes, and in fact the more of them you import and the more of them you allow to stay who are already here the worse your fiscal problem gets.

That's the math whether Stockman likes it or not and he knows it because he admits this is the very strategy the Democrats are adhered to and why they adhere to it.

David presents many other scary and true facts in his article. But, his prescription for a fix is factually and knowingly bankrupt. He demolishes his very own argument within the first few paragraphs but he has obviously forgotten his bit of truth-telling just a few short column inches down the page.

Read the whole post.....

https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=232801

[George Rebane]

fish 925am - Wow! And here people thought RR didn't hold back on what was really happening. Talk about our being past the tipping point.

[Bill Tozer]

Tapes just released clearly show Trump did not say “sh*thole”, he said “Chicago”.

If you want real examples of “sh*tholes, just look at any Sanctuary City.

Fish @ 9:25 am.
I don’t care if they pay taxes or not. That is not the point. The word illegal means illegal. Imagine that.

What, was it something I said?

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1187680968032397&set=p.1187680968032397&type=3&theater

The libs have a valid point. They can and will successfully use the Constitution to remove Trump.

https://www.facebook.com/PatriotPost/photos/a.82108390913.80726.51560645913/10155338344845914/?type=3&theater

[fish]

Posted by: George Rebane | 16 January 2018 at 09:33 AM

He is strident in his choice of language.

I'm quite sure that this kind of post will set some of your more delicate neighbors off....trigger them to use "todays phrase that pays". But it should also be acknowledged that this is exactly the direction that the democrat party has consciously chosen to go. Abandonment of economic issues of the working class for a passionate embrace of Sailers "Coalition of the Fringes".

[fish]

Posted by: Bill Tozer | 16 January 2018 at 09:49 AM

I don’t care if they pay taxes or not. That is not the point. The word illegal means illegal. Imagine that.

No I get it Bill.....the point of the post was that all of this economic benefit that the "jons" and Punch-Es of the world promise simply isn't going to materialize.

[Bill Tozer]

Fish @ 9:53am.

Yes indeed. Of course I know you get it and your intended target. You were not my target either. My point is let’s drop the mantra of tax paying illegals as some kind of absolution for those who are not authorized to be in our country. I used you ( and your link), Mr. Fish, as a convienent lead-in to target the same jons and uncritical thinkers. You just left the door open for me. I am an opportunist !

As I wrote on these pages before, the hard working illegal alien landscaper (gardener), custodian (janitor), laborer, roofer, or sheet rocker may be a fine fellow and not himself not on the dole. Paid in cash. But, chances are his wife sitting at home nurturing her infant and young children is more likely than not to be on SNAP and free medical in CA.

[Bill Tozer]

Coming on the heels of our MLK national holiday.
.
BTW, I was just thinking back to the amnesty program under President Reagen. I also remembered there was a Blue Ribbon Commission appointed by President Clinton, headed by an respected Dem black Congresswoman at the time. Then I remembered the commission’s report and recommendations were released and summarily thrown on the stack of Presidential bi-partisan Blue Ribbon Commission reports and their important recommendations to collect dust. Just like the Blue Ribbon Commission under Obama (?) to recommend solutions to the debt/ deficit looming crisis. Same result, tossed on the stack to collect dust, but I regress.

Anyway. just as I was going to Google that Presidential Blue Ribbon Commission on immigration, a link pops up. Timing is everything. Great minds think alike.

Her name was Jordon. Congresswoman Barbara Jordon

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/01/15/evaluating-the-damage-immigrations-impact-black-americans/

[Bill Tozer]

@ 9:49 am., moi.
It was not embellishment when moi penned, “If you want real examples of “sh*tholes, just look at any Sanctuary City.”

https://www.thrillist.com/news/nation/human-wasteland-map-plots-all-of-san-franciscos-poop

Now, what would you call a place where poop in public places is so bad and stacked so high, it is mapped? A real honest to goodness landmined sprewn Sanctuary Sh*thole.

[Walt]

LOL Bill! I saw that too. Has anyone passed that on to the "Frisco" kid?

[Paul Emery]

Go for it Walt. At least you'll be doing the work. Otherwise you're just liar. Shw me one post where I SUPPORTED Hillary.

[Paul Emery]

Walt your 10:29 was just reporting a quote not expressing a personal opinion or support about Hilly. Try again.

[Todd Juvinall]

Walt, you can never pin a weasel down.

[George Rebane]

The above information that you all are presenting and linking to on immigration and immigrants is pointedly ignored by leftwing sites whose ONLY response has been to join the Collectivist Chorus in yet one more rendition of the Racist Rightwing Requiem. It sure appears that they have neither interest nor the intellect to engage in a debate based on data and facts, even their own 'facts'. But then, appearances can be misleading. All we need is a link or two to a site where such counters are presented. Then we can return to the constantly confirmed proposition that it's primarily our locals who suffer these deficits.

[Walt]

LOL Paul!! From the guy who said "one outweighs 14". Remember? Our little talk on mass shooters? (Mostly Leftists)
Be careful of what you "demand". You slither back under your rock when it come back to bite.

[Walt]

And get the bleachers set up! Perp walks may be coming SOON!!
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jan/16/dhs-asks-prosecutors-charge-sanctuary-city-leaders/
"Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen confirmed Tuesday that her department has asked federal prosecutors to see if they can lodge criminal charges against sanctuary cities that refuse to cooperate with federal deportation efforts.

“The Department of Justice is reviewing what avenues may be available,” Ms. Nielsen told the Senate Judiciary Committee."

[Todd Juvinall]

Heard today that Trump said Norway and Asia not just Morway in his comments on where he wished people came from. Now the lamestreams like Paul Emery parsed that to say just Norway to try and make it some sort of racist comment. You cannot trust Paul Emery and his ilk to tell the truth. It is truly a bad thing for free speech and for America to have this sort of dishonesty in reporting.

[Walt]

OH Paul.... "Hillary will have already won the presidency when she gets a pardon from Obama ".

That's cheering Paul,, on her side, backing her, supporting her.

[Bill Tozer]

Dr. Rebane @ 12:02 pm.

https://www.facebook.com/PatriotPost/photos/a.82108390913.80726.51560645913/10155335760935914/?type=3&theater

Walt @ whenever.

https://www.facebook.com/lastamericapatriots/photos/a.235087906641439.1073741826.235086849974878/983009825182573/?type=3&theater

[fish]

Posted by: Walt | 16 January 2018 at 12:27 PM

Yeah..... Punch is slippery enough to not put much down in writing. Gregory should weigh in again on some of the things Punch said to him in person during the run up to the election!

[Walt]

Bill.. Great comment from that. Paul should agree.
"Democrats do love shit holes! Could be why they turn cities into them. Go democrats!!!"

[Bill Tozer]

Never voted for Hillary, Walt. Hillary ran one time, Scenes. I thought you knew that, lol.

Well, if it’s any consolation to My Gal, Nelson Mandela spent 27 years in prison before he was elected President.

Ok, no letting the Popinjay drive the bus. Back on topic....
https://www.facebook.com/lastamericapatriots/photos/a.235087906641439.1073741826.235086849974878/983004655183090/?type=3&theater

[Paul Emery]

Just an observation Walt, not very accurate to be honest, not an endorsement. Keep trying.

[Paul Emery]

Anybody who has followed my comments will recall my rants about the two parties being wings on the same fat bird and that I encouraged support for third parties which I recommend to this day. Never an endorsement of Hillary.

[Paul Emery]

Todd
Please provide a link for your 12:12

[Walt]

Paul and his revisionism AGAIN.... Hillary didn't run you say?
"The 2008 presidential campaign of Hillary Rodham Clinton, then junior United States Senator from New York, was announced on her website on January 20, 2007"

So make up all the excuses you like Paul. "WE" know better.
Your kinda like DICK Durbin now. Only he heard "shithole".

[Walt]

And one more thing.... Paul,,, Your running out of grease to slither out of this. You just went from "support" to "endorse".
Next excuse?

[Bill Tozer]

I ain’t really interested in kicking Little Dick Durbin around. too much...but, but, but.... it’s nice to see someone besides Chucky the Clown carry the water for the Lefties’s for a change . Polling shows that Chucky the Clown ranks below the pathetic near bottom approval ratings of Congress, just like Nancy. When you hit rock bottom, the only way to go is up, I reckon. Or put in the backup quarterback or call up some other doofus from the depleted bench.
Be that as it may, let’s kick Little Dickie D around. His credibility and forgetfulness ranks right up there our own batboy carrying the Dem’s water.
——-
“The memo showed that one of the reasons Democrats wanted to block confirmation of the Honduras-born Estrada was because he is Latino.

The meeting “focused on identifying the most controversial and/or vulnerable judicial nominees, and a strategy for targeting them,” Durbin’s staffer wrote in the memo which was published only in Nov. 2003, months after Estrada withdrew his name from consideration after a protracted battle with Democrats.

“They also identified Miguel Estrada [D.C. Circuit] as especially dangerous, because he has a minimal paper trail, he is Latino, and the White House seems to be grooming him for a Supreme Court appointment,” Durbin’s staffer wrote.

Besides his opposition to Estrada, Durbin opposed two other minority Bush nominees. In 2005, he voted against Bush’s nominee for secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice. Also in 2005, he was outspoken in his opposition of Bush’s U.S. Court of Appeals nominee, Janice Rogers Brown. Both Rice and Brown were eventually confirmed. Like Lynch, both are black”

http://dailycaller.com/2015/03/18/flashback-dick-durbins-office-sought-to-block-bushs-latino-court-nominee/

[Bill Tozer]

Todd @ 12:12.

Guess if we really need a transcript of what was really said, then we just need to contact the Obama Deep State.

“I thought this passage in the Post account was notable: “[Trump] also objected that Democratic proposals to adjust the visa lottery and federal policy for immigrants with temporary protected status were going to drive more people from countries he deemed undesirable into the United States instead of attracting immigrants from places like Norway and Asia, people familiar with the meeting said.”

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/455460/trump-immigration-meeting-asia-norway-immigrants-discussed

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/455460/trump-immigration-meeting-asia-norway-immigrants-discussed

[Paul Emery]

Poor Melania

What a slime Trump is

"A porn star who was reportedly paid $130,000 before the 2016 presidential election for her silence over an alleged sexual relationship she had with Donald Trump a decade earlier told Slate magazine that their alleged affair lasted “nearly a year,” the online magazine reported Tuesday.

According to Slate magazine editor-in-chief Jacob Weisberg, Stephanie Clifford, the adult film actress also known as Stormy Daniels, told him that she first met Trump at a 2006 celebrity golf tournament in Nevada, where they had the first of numerous sexual encounters. At the time, Trump had been married to Melania for less than two years."

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2018/01/16/report-porn-star-said-she-had-yearlong-affair-with-trump-in-2006/23335011/

[Walt]

Old news Paul, and already discredited. Get with the current program.

[Don Bessee]

TURDS eruption @332. I thought they said they were all Doctors and nurses?

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/01/16/dreamer-age-illegals-crime-rate-double-young-americans-says-report/

;-)

[Bill Tozer]

Take it to the Sandbox O’ Punch Drunk One. Or, is that the One who drinks the Punch? No matter. Boy, when one runs out of ideas or arguments, that discredited object of well deserved ridicule really starts grasping at straws.
When all else fails, fallback to hyperventilating over Melania’s shoes...or some other recess in the abyss of TDS.

To the Sandbox for you, Punchy. We have a predetermined topic on this thread. Run along and tell everybody about what a slime ball Trump is and what a greaseball Jr. is over on the Sandbox. Oh yeah, when you get there, feel free to have a meltdown over Melania’s fashion statements there as well.

[Bill Tozer]

Looks like we are moving towards a merit based immigration policy. Finally. That is great for our country. Sanity had some back to life in government.

I am beginning to really like our new head of DHS. Tough as nails, straight shooter, all about Security and protecting our blessed Homeland. Great resume. More experienced than any of the five previous persons who held the Top Dog position at DHS. We be in good hands.

“She said President Trump was mainly focused on security, and moving the country toward a merit-based immigration system.

“What he was referencing is, from a merit-based perspective, we would like to have those with skills who can assimilate and contribute to the United States, moving away from country quotas and to an individual, merit-based system,” Nielsen stated.

http://www.oann.com/dhs-secy-pres-trump-is-focused-on-moving-to-merit-based-immigration/
————-

Don, I wonder if we will start enforcing the laws on the books. It is a 10k fine to knowingly harbor an illegal alien, aka, unauthorized foreign national on US soil. If you want to really want to get someone’s full undivided attention, then hit them in the pocketbook. How many illegal unauthorized immigrants do you think the Mayor of Frisco is harboring? Just saying, not expecting that law to be enforced or to go anywhere. :)

[Bill Tozer]

“And crime abated with the reduced human traffic from Juarez, considered one of the most dangerous places in the world due to drug-cartel violence, helping El Paso become one of the safest large cities in America.”

https://nypost.com/2018/01/13/we-already-have-a-border-wall-and-it-works/

Sure, it won’t stop all the crossing, which is why we need to move quickly to refor out visa policy....and cargo entering our ports. Won’t work if we don’t try.

[Don Bessee]

When will they vote out the losers who are harming their children's future?

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/01/16/dick-durbin-focused-full-time-on-illegal-aliens-as-black-americans-remain-excessively-unemployed-in-his-state/

;-)

[Walt]

OH yes... Paul Another one you failed to answer. (I REALLY hate repeating myself... but I know how it is with the "older" folks)
Since it's your contention "there are no sh*thole counties",
then you should have no gripe in sending illegals back to their respective "heaven on Earth".

[Paul Emery]

Walt you don't have a clue. The so called "illegals" you are talking about were brought here as children and have never lived anywhere else. Most are productive members of society and have jobs and go to school. you are heartless and cold to dump them off in a place they've never lived for what purpose? I don't know anyone like you so there you have it.

[Scenes]

I was considering this article on the ways that the DACA database could be used:

https://www.theringer.com/tech/2017/9/7/16268068/daca-database-trump

and it occurred to me that it would be brilliant to start with that database, find those peoples' older relatives (parents, especially) and, Bob's yer uncle, you get a nice tidy list of households for ICE to visit.

DACA is interesting. Everyone in that category is either an honor student who was brought into the US as an infant, or was a 16 year old 'immigrant' with two felony convictions.

[Walt]

Your the one who doesn't get it. We have front row seats.
It happened to my wife's Brother. He managed just fine.

Care to try again? Illegal is illegal. Life ain't fair. Show me where the law of fairness for all is written.

[Don Bessee]

I would be willing to bet the @ 935 was just a base pander for drinks to patrons in whatever ale house the po' ol' faknewsman is in. ;-)

[Paul Emery]

Walt you would take a 19-year-old with a job going to college and send them back to a Country they left when they were two years old and have never return to and have no friends or relatives You would do that right Walt

[Don Bessee]

You need to actually look at the real demographics. How many drinks did that get ya? Here is a midnight snack-

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2018/01/16/dhs-doj-more-than-70-percent-of-terror-related-convicts-in-u-s-are-foreign-born/

;-)

[Bill Tozer]

DACA us interesting. First and foremost, the program is unconstitutional. The Dream Act failed to pass Congress and Obama cannot make laws out of thin air, which is why Trump gave Congress 6 months to create a law he can sign and enforce.

.DACA rules say you must remain in the US, cannot have left the US since coming here, and meet certain age and time frames. Must have been brought here between 2007 and 2011, 16 years old and younger. So a 15 year old arrival never knew his/her country?. That’s a good one. So, let’s say the DACA honor student is now 20 years old. The poor soul only spent 3/4 of his/her life living in their country of birth.

One DACA punk decided he was going to visit Mexico. Upon return, he was deported. Big stink. Broke the rules, outta here. Then they caught the same law breaker climbing back over the wall, lol. Dumb 19 year old piece of grunt thinks he can do want anything he wants to do with no consequences. Wrong. Deported twice now, and cannot visit or get even a tourist visa to visit Disney World for then next ten years.

We must not reward bad behavior. Any DACA joining a gang gets you booted from our sacred soil as well. Good. They found dozens of DACA gang members who broke their agreements. Adios. Now we know where the pieces of grunt gangbangers’s parents, cousins, uncles, and the whole criminal family lives.. They will soon join their sons for a nice family reunification in Honduras, Mexico, and Guatemala, Cry me a river. Green cards are not citizenship cards.

[fish]

IMPLEMENT CRAZY CAT LADY PROTOCOL IN.....3.....2....1!

Walt you don't have a clue. The so called "illegals" you are talking about were brought here as children and have never lived anywhere else. Most are productive members of society and have jobs and go to school. you are heartless and cold to dump them off in a place they've never lived for what purpose? I don't know anyone like you so there you have it.

Nice nod to Pauline Kael at the end as well Punch!

[Scenes]

re: BillT @ 12:54

I was considering what a 'clean' DACA bill would look like, that is, one that isn't connected to highway funding for a particular senator or a government funding shutdown.

Since you get more of anything that is rewarded, a simple amnesty is probably not such a great plan. There are roughly a million of these 'children', and you can imagine the result if smuggling your offspring into the US resulted in citizenship. They'd probably start using trebuchets to fling kids over the wall.

OTOH, I do see the problem of the honors student who-wants-to-be-an-astronaut who was whisked into the US at age 3.

Perhaps something along these lines.

. Blanket amnesty if you can prove you qualify.
. Some list of felony convictions. Deport.
. Never has a right to vote (dissuades Democrats from flinging in kids).
. Never has a right to indulge in chain migration (dissuades ethnic activists or parents from flinging in kids).
. All illegal alien relatives of the DACA kidz are still fair game for deportation.

Just check out DAPA if you want to see what Mr. Obama really had in mind.

Interestingly, the result of all this 'diversity' is a lack of diversity as practically the entire list of people is from the same place.

Without thinking about it too much, I'd say that the primary legislative goal in all of this immigration law (or executive fiat) fuss is chain migration and the removal thereof. Everything else is a sideshow. Not only is the great majority of migration due to chain migration, but it distorts the entire rationale for attempting to change country of residence.

[Scenes]

re: Me@7:09AM

By 'amnesty', I mean something akin to a retirement visa in other countries, minus the income and work restrictions. You are never considered a US citizen and must keep your paperwork up to date.

One more thing I'll add is that the holder of this new 'DACA' visa has to get cleaned up paperwork with their country of origin. No doubt Mexico is just as happy to forget these people ever existed.

[Bill Tozer]

Scenes.

I, too, think a clean bill is the only way to go. It is important that the program ends and not renewed and no moving the goal posts to those who came here after 201I. As written, there is no verifiable documentation required for the DACA applicants to prove their ages or dates they were brought in, or even country of origin. That is why we have DACA “children” that are 36 years old, 24 year olds in high school, kids with full blown 5 o’clock shadow in in grammar school. The whole applicantion form is a total honor system. “Yep, I was 15 when I was brought here in 2010.” Rightttttt.

Besides the abuses which may or may not of any sufficient percentage, its the chain migration that is the stickler. Once granted residency to the DACA student who reaches 18 years old, he can bring in his family, cousins, uncles and their families until whole village is allowed in...legally. Toss vetting out the window. Toss bringing in the best and brightest out the window . Toss bringing in those who have the best chance of flourishing here by making it here through productivity and achieving a wonderful life pursing their dreams.....toss all that out the window.
Instead bring in lazy Uncle Jim’ and his extended family with his unemployable adult children, as well as cousin Dave the sheep jumper with his Greek niece the stork left at the doorstep.

First and foremost, Congress needs to write a DACA bill. We cannot have an unconstitutional policy being equated to the rule of law. They are not called law makers for nuthin. 6 Senators (3 Dems, 3 R’s) do not constitute 550 voting members of Congress, nor elected 100 Senators nor 450 members of the House. 6 Senators running to Trump claiming they have a deal is total bull pucky.

Right now immigration reform i is DOA this week....until a clean bill is passed. Tacking it on a spending bill in a big rush is BS. A clean bill that includes a wall, ending chain migration, knowing exactly who is coming coming into our country, DACA provisions for Punchy’s two year old girl whose parents snuck in here and we don’t even know who or where the parents are......or even their names or background history....a clean bill. That is what February is for....maybe March.

The Supreme Court has already blocked the Dream Act. DACA is just a new name for the Dream Act. Get the foundation right so the house does not fall over when the wind changes.

[Walt]

OK Paul's house is a sanctuary site. I know a few I can send your way Paul. They will be yours to feed and house. Lets see how fast that bleeding heart drys up.

[Bill Tozer]

As it stands right now, Lille Dickie Durbin and Lindsey Graham’s life long Dream is just another big amnesty plan hiding behind “the children.” Same with unaccompanied minors. Their parents did not bring them here, but we won’t talk about that......

Correction from above. We have DACA children here who are now 40 years old, lol.

[Bill Tozer]

X
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/01/16/might-as-well-roll-it-straight-into-the-trash-can-tom-cotton-shoots-down-expansive-gang-of-six-daca-amnesty/

[Don Bessee]

Clinton News Network-

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/01/17/cnn-star-jim-acosta-should-be-kicked-out-white-house-press-corps.html

;-)

[Bill Tozer]

This does not fit the narrative

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/01/16/dreamer-age-illegals-crime-rate-double-young-americans-says-report/

[George Rebane]

re BillT 1231pm - In discussing reliable news sources with Bro PaulE, Breitbart was dismissed out of hand. Does that mean that the report cited by Mr Tozer's Breitbart link needs to be dismissed as fake news?

[Bill Tozer]

For every high school DACA valedictorian that was brought over here at no fault of her own when she was just two years old (and this is the only country she has ever known), I can match that one standout with ten of these all day long.

https://www.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.217983685002343.55586.217926015008110/1239750819492286/?type=3&theater

Name 5, I will name 50. Just because someone is a DACA, does not mean they are all the same. You know, broad brush stuff the Lefties say is soooo wrong. I agree.

Want to talk about those mean little pukes with a bad F YOU attitude to all authority have been placed in junivelle hall since they were 14 awaiting transfer to the regular jailhouse when they turn 18? Them are some of the poor sweet unaccompanied minors. How much do a ten, twenty thousand of them cost us each year for the pleasure of feeling good about ourselves.

Want to talk about percentages of inmates in our Federal prisons that are illegal aliens? Our CA State Prisons? What to discuss the dates and ages of the felony offenders when they committed their crimes or just conviction dates and years? Yes, not all are DACAs or little toddlers who become the high school valedictorian and excelled at Cal.

[George Rebane]

BillT 613pm - Excellent Mr Tozer. For an expanded consideration of such arguments and factors, please read 'Truth Decay'.
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2018/01/truth-decay.html

[Bill Tozer]

Good Doc.

I thought about posting it there, but I figured it was too inflammatory and did not want to turn the excellent and provocative Truth Decay post into another Sh*thole Country Immigration food fight, part 2. Hey, I stayed on topic under the proper heading. L I intended to bury i my comment here. Soon this post with 270 comments will be so low on the list you can’t even find it. Over and out. See ya on Tooth Decay. American girls are known for flossing, FYI.

[Scenes]

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2018/01/what_i_learned_in_peace_corps_in_africa_trump_is_right.html

[George Rebane]

re Scenes 745am - According to my lights, I would very carefully vet would be immigrants from countries that need foreign aid workers to teach their citizens how to dig latrines and wells so as to enable them to live without soiling their nests and enjoy better health.

[Don Bessee]

This could be under truth decay too-

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/01/18/totally-unjustifiable-jeff-sessions-dhs-secretary-nielsen-shut-down-jeff-flakes-gang-of-six-daca-amnesty/

;-)

[Don Bessee]

So we should let them vote??

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-42732442

;-)

[George Rebane]

DonB 1104pm - Good pick-up Mr Bessee. Yes 'Infantilising young people' is now both fashion and fact - the average marriage age of 32+ says it all. Our society has changed markedly over the last half century, and as lifespans have increased so has our tendency to coddle children longer. The college undergraduate of today is a psychological basketcase compared to 50 years ago. It all derives from how they have been "carefully taught".

Vote? We used to set the voting age based on maturity. If we do that today, then we'd set suffrage at 25 at least. But the Left wants it lowered to get more of the pre-educated and compliant on to the voting rolls for obvious reasons. All part and parcel of the evidence that we are beyond the tipping point.