On Immigration and ‘S#!thole Countries’ (updated 13jan18)

George Rebane

No matter what he actually said in that White House meeting on immigration policy, President Trump has again focused a policy discussion on a crux of the matter instead of continuing the same ol’ same ol’ circling of the barn.  I don’t want to debate whether he actually said “shithole country” as the press is attributing, but I hope he did if it gets us off the dime in deciding who should be let in to serve America’s interests as a sovereign and sustainable nation-state.

Because this is a family-oriented blog (hah!), and in the ensuing discussion we will want to continue using that colorful descriptor without gratuitously sprinkling dirty words all over these pages, I will use the three-letter acronym SHC in the sequel for both expedience and, perhaps, collateral decorum.  Nevertheless, the meaning of that appellation will be made and should remain clear.

Instead of working on a more polished commentary, I decided to quickly anchor my contribution to the topic in a structured list of propositions that I believe are also embraced more or less by other conservetarians.  If they are also Bayesians like me, then their beliefs of the following will range from near zero (impossible) to near unity (certain), and in the process never saying never for either extreme.

Before sallying forth, what Trump really meant to say instead of SHC is ‘third world country’ as pointed out by a reader under the recent ‘Scattershots’, who also provided a link to the UN’s list of third world countries (here).  However, on closer inspection ‘third world country’ does not quite capture the more specific and richer concept of a SHC since not all third world countries are SHCs and some, even European, second world countries (e.g. Belarus and Albania) are SHCs.  Onward to the propositions in no particular order –

1. No broadly based social benefits can be maintained by a nation without strong economic growth.
2. Low or stagnant economic growth leads to unrest and authoritarian cum tyrannical governance (always instigated ‘for the common good’).
3. While case-by-case implementation of public policies is desirable, no country has the resources to sustainably provide that. Therefore, laws regulations, codes are crafted and enforced on the basis of aggregate descriptors of the governed cohorts.
4. There is no historical evidence that desirable and transplantable social orders can survive within stagnant economies (i.e. such benevolent stasisms are popular in fairy tales and myths).
5. America was founded primarily on the extension and spread of western culture. When formerly we welcomed immigrants, it was understood that the arriving “wretched refuse” departed from the “teeming shores” of Europe.  No one then wanted to throw open our doors to Asians, Africans, Latinos, or even the swarthy people of the Mideast and Arab countries.
   • Therefore, race (i.e. physical appearance) was the easy aggregate descriptor used to define and expediently sort out the desirables from the undesirables.
6. Sentient life (i.e. critters that can remember and form pictures of likely futures) exhibits Bayesian behaviors. They decide things on the basis of prior experience (personal and learned knowledge) and aggregated evidence (e.g. in the form of summarizations and/or learned stereotypes).
7. Individual freedoms within a cohort or community are always a tradeoff within some acceptable level of security, given the level of perceived danger. Corollary – freedom and security are zero-sum benefits within a social order.
8. A culture is identifiable as a collection of beliefs and behavioral norms held dear and valued by a given population. Beliefs include a common ontology and shared view of the past (history).  Behaviors include language, dress, social practices (commercial, familial, entertainment, …).  The overarching purpose is to live in a selectively supportive society that allows members to reliably predict each other’s behaviors.  Different cultures have adopted different tradeoffs between individual freedoms and social security.  Cultures should be viewed as implementations of collectively held social insurance for a secure and predictable future, whose premiums paid by the beneficiaries are the publicly visible cultural norms they practice.
9. SHCs are countries that inhabit the repressive, ignorant, stagnant, and economically poor end of the spectrum of nations. Most SHCs can be found among what are commonly identified as third world countries, with some seen as second world countries.
10. People tend to help the poor and needy, not so much with the expectation to eliminate poverty and need, but to confirm ourselves as participating members of a benevolent social order that will also nurture us should our fortunes fail. In short, more of that social security insurance.
11. Nature abhors universal definitions of ‘good’ (i.e. utility). All utilities (measures of ‘good’) are in some fashion localized, and the more localized, the more achievable.  In the natural order, local achievements network naturally to create greater and mutually supportive communities of commonly held good (i.e. supporting the increase of a more comprehensive utility).
12. Enforced multi-culturalism does not work. Peaceful cultures compete and naturally evolve through mutually beneficial intercourse.  In war stronger cultures destroy, deform, and/or disperse weaker cultures.
13. No successful country has ever intentionally attracted or established lasting counter-cultures within its domain. Successful immigration has always involved importation of industrious and assimilating foreigners.  (Possible exception: Peter the Great inviting Germans to bring west European culture to the Russian countryside, develop commerce, and manage agricultural estates.  However, the norm is more like the attitudes Mexico, Switzerland, and Saudi Arabia have toward immigration.)
14. Humans, individually and as members of established groups, are measurably different. In short, we can forensically identify unique individuals and groups.
15. A litmus test for SHC qualification is that its citizens overwhelmingly want to emigrate.

[13jan18 update]  Not much on immigration debate has come from the Left, and that specifically includes the local Left as witnessed by the comment stream below.  Now one of their leading lights – our political cartoonist RL Bob Crabb – has entered the fray with his contribution.  In other more measured offerings Mr Crabb laments on the polarization and quality of debate in the land, seeking always to promote himself as the voice of bipartisan and dispassionate reason astride the mindless froth that issues from both sides of the proverbial road.  I suppose in his tally, offerings like the one below are not included. Another commenting reader in an exuberant expression of joyous approval of Mr Crabb has appended “Nailed it!!!”  Such is the nature of our national dialogue.

Comments

[Scenes]

"Everyone here right of center wants to have a merit based immigration system that serves our national interests. "

Of course, but that means that Saint Paul can't accuse everyone of racism.

Obviously, it boils down to this. Places with large numbers of highly qualified potential citizens aren't hellholes. Some places with a high percentage of highly educated/skilled people (and no Paul, Nigeria isn't one of those places) find the US a desirable target country, some don't.

My honest guess is that a purely merit based system would result in a vast majority of people moving here being from South and East Asia. There's a helluva lot of people there and the schools are good enough. Another medium sized chunk would hail from Central/Eastern Europe or Russia. Africa and Latin America would provide hardly anyone.

But, Asian people in the US aren't particularly politically active, while there's a lot of call to chain migrate 100% of Mexico, Guatemala, etc. into the US.

It's all about ethnic politics and not at all about searching for the best and brightest.

[Bill Tozer (moi)]

1) cut chain migration. Learn English. CA schools are scrambling to find teachers to fill the immediate need to speak all of those140 languages they need to have to educate CA’s kids.

Legal immigration? Sure. How about this for starters. Must be in good health. Physical good health. Don’t need to be perfect and can have some missing fingers, but overall in good health. No diseases, show proof of rabbi shots. :). Probably already in practice, but it’s a starting point.

BTW, ain’t calling any of the masses outside the gate stupid. Nobody here has so quit putting words in other people’s mouths, Mr. Assumption. Many are Ignorant. Uneducated. Unskilled. Ignorant means not knowing, not stupid, you ignoramus.

[Account Deleted]

"First of all it will take years before they gain citizenship especially because they are dumb and stupid according to your analysis."
Paul - I asked you to please provide evidence of what you accused me of. Nothing. Now you start a new line of accusations.
Pretty pathetic.
Paul Emery is the 'news director' of KVMR and he admits he doesn't even know what it is that Trump was asking when Trump made headlines around the world.
Paul Emery can't even back up his own opinions.
Really pathetic.
Get some rest, Paul and try to stay off the dope.
Paul is typical of the left. They cried out that the sky would fall if Trump was POTUS and now America and ALL of it's citizens are better off due to Trump's policies. Black Americans are better off under Trump than Obama and the left is shitting bricks. They can not let this continue. They will try to take down Trump any way they can.
George - you are wasting your time asking the left to provide logical truth to back up their bull shit. Prime example - Paul Emery.

[Account Deleted]

from Paul's link - "That education translates into higher household income. Nigerian-Americans, for instance, have a median household income well above the American average, and above the average of many white and Asian groups, such as those of Dutch or Korean descent."
Uh - aren't Nigerians kinda - you know - 'dark'? I thought this country kept that kind down? And what was the cost in US dollars for the education of those Nigerians?
Looks like Paul's narrative about white racist America and the cost of education and the reason for poor test scores for non-whites just ate the dust.
And maybe Paul can 'splain why these educated Nigerians split their diverse, loving, hard working and multi-culti Nigeria to come to this NAZI white ruled country?
And how many Nigerians legally immigrate here and how many Mexicans just sorta show up?

[Paul Emery]

So Nigeria is "not one of those places" Scenes but people from Africa that reside here have higher educational achievement than American Whites according to the census;

[Paul Emery]

So Scott is now resorting to personal attacks which is a sure sign his argument is out of gas.

[Account Deleted]

Yeah - Nigerians are in the news every day. What is the annual total of legal Nigerian immigration to this country?
And why are they fleeing their non-SHC to come to a NAZI controlled white racist nation?

[Account Deleted]

"So Scott is now resorting to personal attacks which is a sure sign his argument is out of gas. "
Facts? Quotes?
Well - I tried reason and proof.
I did ask you, Paul to provide quotes to back up your personal attacks against me.
Where are they?
Oh - that's right - if you ask Paul for proof, he considers it a 'personal attack'.
Trump asks why this country should be flooded with poor illiterate welfare cases, and the left just continues to cry 'racism'.
I'm not sure we can have an intelligent conversation any more on the topic.

[Todd Juvinall]

Disregard the race baiters like Paul Emery. He can never accept a premise other than his own so it is hopeless to even discuss this he is so irrational about it all.

[Bonnie McGuire]

Yeah this subject was a great way to stir the pot. When it came up on Facebooks Peeps I expressed my opinion, got insulted and Peeps ended and censored the discussion. My contribution was Teddy Roosevelts 1907 opinion regarding emigration. You can find today's on Jeff Ackerman's page regarding the subject. Jeff wrote "We all know there are shit holes. We’ve either lived in one, driven through one or visited one.
If I asked for the first thing to come to mind when I say “Bakersfield,” or “Stockton,” or maybe “Barstow,” you’d probably answer “shit hole.”
Admit it.
Problem is, we don’t expect our president to refer to other nations as “shit holes.” At least not publicly.
We expect our politicians to lie, or at least embellish the truth.
“It’s a nice place, but I wouldn’t want to live there,” is better. Unless your relative lives there, in which case you should simply refer to it as a “nice place.”
Or...if you have nothing nice to say...shut up."
I had to say "Well, I don't approve of the language, but it does reflect modern society that elects our Congress and Presidents. Looking back many, many years I remember all the donations to help the poor in Africa and many other nations, and my wonderful Dr. Kellerman who did so much for the poor in Africa. What really disgusted me was when America (through the United Nations) gave a lot of money to Africa to improve the Transportation of people and whatever they needed down a river that was their major means of commerce. Then I discovered that the African leader stashed money in a Swiss bank account and built a mansion in another country. It was disgusting and heartbreaking. We have no idea how our help will be used."

[Bill Tozer (moi)]

According to the studies...from regions of origin:
73% of Central America and Mexico immigrants are on the welfare rolls.
49% of African immigrants are on the rolls.

See, Africa good. Let 80 more in next year. Kenya is not Egypt, nor is the Democratic Republic of the Congo close to the Republic of Nigeria. Heck, I can reminder when South Africa was the only country in sub-Saharan Africa that was worth a squat.

https://www.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.217983685002343.55586.217926015008110/1236896953111006/?type=3&theater

Punchy, you have looking at this whole SHC thang ass backwards. It’s not about the immigrants. It’s all about us citizens. Simple 4 point plan. It ain’t about your Kenyan farmer at all.

https://www.facebook.com/lastamericapatriots/photos/a.235087906641439.1073741826.235086849974878/981347345348821/?type=3&theater

[fish]

Posted by: Paul Emery | 12 January 2018 at 09:58 PM

So Scott is now resorting to personal attacks which is a sure sign his argument is out of gas.

C'mon Matlock.....maybe you could ask him an endless series of repetitive questions about the matter being discussed to reinject some life into the argument.

[Bill Tozer]

Short article. uncensored prez and da media. Played out true to form on these very pages.

https://patriotpost.us/articles/53408

[Scenes]

PaulE some responses back:

"So Nigeria is "not one of those places" Scenes but people from Africa that reside here have higher educational achievement than American Whites according to the census;"

Well, so what exactly? Nigeria (and Egypt, the other source) is a great big country and if the US wants to extract their educated people (the opposite of giving their country help by the way), I can't say that I'm surprised. Hopefully they're not all just African Studies think tank people, since in the era of the Green Libertarian, the value of education is somewhat reduced.

It's rather like saying that the one Yanomamo person in the US has a bachelors degree, 100% of Yanomami, so they are the most educated people in the world.

At the end of the day, I simply can't see what's wrong with 1)eliminating chain migration 2)merit based immigration 3)reducing the numbers somewhat. This last because we simply don't need more people (they pollute, drive down wages, use up the housing stock...keep in mind that any additional American produces more CO2). Infinite population growth does not imply infinite wealth.

If you do the opposite, which is to allow unlimited numbers in from the poor areas of the world, this country will be toast at some point. Nigeria, just Nigeria, is expected to have 625M people living there in 50 years. Without strict limits, Paul's Freedom Train could inundate this country from a single source.

Heck, if I wanted to play the race card, I'd simply demand that all immigrants were from the Anglosphere. It may well be that someone needs to save those (likely) doomed whites in South Africa before all hell breaks loose there someday. I'd probably prefer that there was a fast-track immigration concept for people from the UK/Australia/New Zealand/Canada but I can accept that a bunch of highly educated people from world wide (not just a handful of third world countries) might make for a more interesting future.

Honestly Paul, it's like you don't read any of the responses. Being a troll is going to get boring at some point, but maybe not growing up with computers makes it all seem fresh. My bit of advice is to write a few longer form screeds, don't be so willfully ignorant sometimes, and worry less about gotcha's, it's more dignified for one thing.

Just be very very careful you don't offend the sensibilities of the card-carrying members of your belief system. One wrong sentence and they'll burn you in effigy at the radio station.

[Scenes]

ScottO some posts prior:

"George - you are wasting your time asking the left to provide logical truth to back up their bull shit. Prime example - Paul Emery."

Well, he does drive posts to the site. He has an ability to generate silly one liners, complete with subject change, that drives everyone crazy. Those poll posts, following a number that has jittered around for a year, are true genius.

I say this with complete honesty, Paul is a singularly gifted troll. Arguing with one is the problem, and I've fallen into the pit myself.

The trick is to find someone who'll put up a real debate, I might even learn something. I think that Frisch had something going on there, but he always gets driven off in a series of spats. Looking at the other local blogs, none of the other regular posters do anything but spew out a bit of over-the-top virtue signalling. For all I know, the responses are all pre-programmed into their keyboards.

[Account Deleted]

Scenes 7:24 - Yeah, I know. You wrestle with a pig and you just get as dirty as the pig and the pig likes it.
It would be nice to have some leftys post here with cogent arguments about first principles concerning immigration. Which brings us back to Trump's question. The left doesn't want to answer the question because it would entail some soul searching about why we have immigration, what should be the criteria and what numbers of folks do we let in?
George posted some good points to ponder, but the left just runs off with their hair on fire.

[fish]

“The trick is to find someone who'll put up a real debate, I might even learn something. I think that Frisch had something going on there, but he always gets driven off in a series of spats”

Yes.....Frisch was the most “content based” of those who used to joust here. Problem was his employment invited too many “personal” shots and Steve himself wasn’t always above the fray. He was quite comfortable taking the low road when it suited him!

The other thing was that I never thought we saw the real Steve until things started to get nasty. Most of his calm and measured responses had the feel of a guy reading a prepared statement at the lectern..

[Bill Tozer]

Maybe we should bar entry from those who live in shithole abodes..entry to real conservations. :) Punchy’s only goal is to disrupt reasoned serious debate. He cannot allows complex topics to be discussed. He cannot allows any topic to be discussed unless he is driving the bus.

He got his point out. We are racists and SHC do not exist. That point was made. Thank you for sharing.

Anybody notice that the self appointed group that met with Trump was not sent by the Senate, included no Congressperson, just took it upon themselves to be them the guiding light.

Oh, 440 Norweigns werev admitted last year, 25,000 from Central America. That’s the legal ones. Maybe cramping down illegal aliens is the most prudent and effectual method to control the people pollution from the hell holes closest to our homeland.. Electric fences, moats filled with acid, carpet bombing the desert, or contract it out and pay a nice bounty per scalp. Piece work. Harboring an illegal is a 10K fine. Never happen.....moats of acid that is.

[Scenes]

re: Green Libertarians and immigration.

I'll throw out a theory I was just considering. Perhaps there is no such thing as Green Libertarian immigration policy, or not much of one.

I spent a few minutes googling about looking for "Progressive", "Democratic Party", etc. policy positions, and it seemed to boil down to this.

. Legalize all illegal aliens in the US (a fast track citizenship mostly).
. Everyone in DACA gets to be a US citizen
. Give illegal aliens full rights in terms of employment law, punish employers for stingy wages, benefits, and the like
. Make sure local police have nothing to do with immigration law
. Expand chain migration (ie. 'reunite families').

so-called 'People of Color' appear to get special treatment, but no particular countries are mentioned.

Latino Green Libertarians and organizations seem to have their own special spin on this, but who can blame them? Looking out for your own people is baked into the cake in most folks.

There are a few 'progressive' anti-immigration groups (rather like there are liberal pro-gun organizations), but it's a rarity. Given that nationalism vs. globalism appears to be the new party split, as opposed to economic issues as a prime mover, I don't think that progressive anti-immigration groups will stay progressive. They may not join the Trump train, but once Orange Hitler has left office they can feel comfortable going with their gut on this.

In a nutshell, what I'm seeing is a wet foot /dry foot system and nothing more. A weak system on the margin of a state combined with a very strong tendency to permanent residency once you've managed to get inside. Really, a de facto open border but without explicit regulations stating that, although I doubt that the Green Libertarians would put it this way.

[MAGA CoVfefe!]

Po' ol' Trumpski needs an army of whitehouse translators to explain what '''he really means'''...makes is convenient for him to play to the Trump meat heads then send in ol' Sara Huxtable to make up some shit...

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/president-trump-clarifies-position-fisa-tweet-expressing-surveillance/story?id=52281564

[Todd Juvinall]

We with common sense and common knowledge know what he meant if he actually said it. We agree we are tired of importing people from shithold countries who are a burden on our people. Simple. Now go hide from the reality.

[Paul Emery]

Todd

People from Africa are not a burden on our people but are an asset. Who exactly are the "our people" you refer to Todd?

[MAGA CoVfefe!]

All hail to the great clairvoyant ToddJi!!

[Bill Tozer]

@ 8:26 am

Couple months back I googled the Green Parties in various western EU countries. My take was restricting chain migration is a crime against humanity. 100% open borders. Seems to be the universal theme. Total alliance to strengthening all control out of Brussels,

Nationalism vs Globalism? Yes, Scenes, it’s the bottom line. Identify politics is just tribalism. My nationalism (not tribalism) is simple. I grew sick and tired of seeing America getting screwed over by others....other countries, other trading partners, and the biggest group of others...the Liberal Mind.

I simply grew sick and tired of being sick and tired.

Veering towards the topic, the DACA had the requirement to speak English waved. Finding out that a whole bunch of things got waived under DACA.

If we cannot agree with the opposition that the US can and must control her borders, then it’s best to ignore all Green Libertarian posts for....the remainder of the weekend. They can go back to their shithole abodes and let the world will pass them by.

My 48 hour vow.

Now, maybe we can kick around immigration “reform”. Start with enforcing the laws passed by Congress that are already on the books. Nobody have a problem with that besides Jerry Brown and the Dem leadership of both CA statehouses?

[Paul Emery]

I agree Bill we must control our borders. We should also offer citizenship paths for Dreamers, thats controlling our borders in a humane manner.

[Bill Tozer]

Again @ 8:26 am

Good post, BTW. Keep kicking your observations and ideas around.

[Walt]

How many do you employ Paul?

And FiFi has returned! Daily Caller kick you to the curb again?

[Walt]

Pack your bags Paul, and take Fifi with ya'.
“The Republic of Congo is on the cusp of becoming one of the finest ecotourism destinations in Africa,” the travel guide publisher Lonely Planet‘s website claims, listing “a pleasantly laid-back capital city in Brazzaville, some decent beaches on its Atlantic coastline and the warm and welcoming Congolese culture” as its evidence.

Amnesty International’s page on Congo lists repression of dissidents, lack of press freedom, “harsh and inhumane” prison conditions, and widespread discrimination against the Pigmy ethnic minority as human rights concerns in the country. The World Bank found in its 2017 assessment that two-thirds of students who graduate primary school lack basic literacy and mathematical skills and nearly half the nation’s residents live below the poverty line.

SHC?? Let us know.

[Paul Emery]

Bill

Is it your view that a 20 year old born in Honduras brought to our country at the age of 2 that has gone through our public schools, speaks English and is working part time and going to college should be packed up and sent back to Honduras, a place she's never lived except as a baby and where she knows no one. What's your plan Bill for folks in that situation Bill ?

[Todd Juvinall]

We need to balance out our immigration numbers to better reflect "affirmative action". Therefore we need many thousands of anglos to make up the shortfall. This is what Paul emery requires for Americans and school admissions and hiring. Done by race. So what do you say Paul Emery? More anglos to balance the numbers? And I do think people from the shitholes in Africa and Central America and the middle ast should be curtailed. They are a burden on the taxpayers and I think we should spend the money on American citizens first.

[Bill Tozer]

6. In order to apply for DACA, immigrants had to be younger than 31 on June 15, 2012.

7. They must have come to the U.S. before turning 16. They must have lived in the U.S. since June 15, 2007.

[Walt]

Nice try Paul. They can take what the learned here back home and make a good living.

There is a member of my family that was "imported" and a young child. The paperwork got screwed up, and his citizenship progress stopped. Nope, never got naturalized. He got deported back to the Germany.Well now... Germany didn't recognise him. They kicked him out. He now lives in London. That was 15 years ago. He's still there.

[Paul Emery]

So you would send her back Walt?

[Paul Emery]

So Walt if she or he is in Highschool or College should they be allowed to finish school before geing sent back?

[George Rebane]

The Left's naive but effective 'answer' (e.g. 1020am above) is to leap over policy discussion and ask what to do with a working adult illegal who was educated here. Before considering any response to that question, the reasonable answer should be that we first get agreement to reduce border porosity to a tolerable level so that we don't continue to have the same problem again ad nauseum. In short, when the boat has a leak you have the alternatives of 1) plugging the hole, 2) try to bail faster, and/or 3) sink. Every reasonable plan should first and foremost include #1.

[George Rebane]

BTW, does anyone have actual numbers to back the Left's contention that the people immigrating (and entering illegally) from Africa are all better educated than Americans? That claim may be limited to a selected cohort, but applying it overall sounds like bullshit.

[Walt]

Damn right Paul. If one of my extended family can, so can others.
So when she goes home, she will have a leg up on the rest of her countrymen/women. And probably won't have to deal with all the Proggy regulations to hamper business.

[Paul Emery]

George

this is direct from the Census data:

EDUCATIONAL
ATTAINMENT
Compared with the overall foreign-
born population, the foreign born
from Africa had higher levels of
educational attainment (Figure 6).

https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2014/acs/acsbr12-16.pdf
High levels of educational attain-
ment among the African born are
in part due to the large number of
educated Africans who have chosen
to emigrate and to many who come
to the United States to pursue
academic studies.

Forty-one percent of the African-born population had a bachelor’s degree or higher
in 2008–2012, compared with 28
percent of the overall foreign born.
Egypt (64 percent) and Nigeria (61
percent) were among the African
countries of birth with the highest
proportion of bachelor’s and higher
degrees.

[George Rebane]

PaulE 1117am - OK Paul and thanks. For the sake of discussion, let's take those numbers as gospel (ignoring the north Africans viz sub-Sahel Africans). These Africans are then indeed a select group who are sufficiently educated to know their country, its goings on, its future prospects, and also have an educated assessment of their personal prospects as among the country's elite. So, when such people from an entire continent decide to emigrate with the desired location being America (the land we are daily reminded by our socialist progressives as being home of the 'despicables' who continue to persecute its minorities, and where the rich rob the poor), what are we to make of their countries of origin, and their evaluation of the most desirable places to which to emigrate??? Is there not somewhere in there lurking the definition of SHC?? And what does all that say about the narrative that the Left has been preaching to Americans through its educational institutions and news/entertainment media?? Is there here also lurking a definition of 'anti-American'??

[MAGA CoVfefe!]

Nailed it!!!

http://www.rlcrabb.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Trump-Moon543.jpg

[Bill Tozer]

Here is the real clincher behind the stats: simple economic theory at work.

“It would be a mistake to look at these comparisons and conclude that somehow Africans are intrinsically superior to Norwegians. In fact, there is some pretty simple economic theory at work. The harder it is to get from one country to another, the more the immigration process selects for individuals who are especially ambitious and resourceful.

. If you are Algerian and educated, or aspire to be educated, your prospects in Algeria are relatively poor and you may seek to leave. A talented, educated person in Japan or Israel can do just fine by staying at home. These kinds of considerations explain about 73 percent of the variation in the educational outcomes of migrants”

Worth repeating: .”The harder it is to get from one country to another, the more the immigration process selects for individuals who are especially ambitious and resourceful”

Yes! The ones who want it the most Also, another important factor: Anti-Americanism.

“I would also note sub-Saharan Africa is the region where I encounter the least anti-American sentiment. That’s broadly consistent with these poll results”

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-01-12/africa-is-sending-us-its-best-and-brightest

—-I once did curiosity research to see why immigrant blacks (from Jamaica and some other countries) had a higher employment rate than native born African-Americans. The
results of the studies were “subjective”, but rang true. It was based on hundreds of interviews, thus I call it subjective.

Bottomline: it was because the immigrants viewed America as the land of opportunity. They believe in the American Dream. No one ever told them they could not make it here because of racism or the game is rigged, as often repeated as the mantra of unemployed native born black young people.
When told that racism would prevent them from seeking and obtaining employment, starting their own business, or moving up the ladder, the black immigrants simply did not believe it in their hearts, nor would they accept as fact what their fellow native born black comtempories told them. The native born black Americans were not going to rain on their parade.

Best interview was with a black immigrant pushing a hot dog cart in New York. He pointed to black Americans hanging out on the street corner idling away the day. He had only arrived here 8 days earlier and could not understand why the idlers were idling.

Best, brightest, most industrious, most entrepreneurial....rugged individualism

[Todd Juvinall]

The Lazarus poem has nothing to do with the true meaning of the AStaue of Liberty. It was placed there after a competition but does not reflect what and why the Statue is. It is about liberty, not immigration.

[Todd Juvinall]

It appears to me there are no posters here that are opposed to the best and the brightest moving here. If they are from Africa then fine. However, they cannot claim affirmative action or any favoritism a non-immigrant black gets under our laws. However, that is not the case in reality. So a Haitian moving to America now can claim the same laws apply to them as a resident American related to slavery here.

[fish]

Posted by: MAGA CoVfefe! | 13 January 2018 at 11:46 AM

Sounds like you’re ready for a clean pair of Depends Doug!

[Russ]

Of Home Truths and Shitholes

By Roger Kimball| January 12, 2018

[...]

And here we come to a second curiosity in the preening and ecstatic outrage over the president’s comment. Everyone, near enough, knows that he was telling a home truth. It was outrageous not because he said something crude that was untrue. Quite the contrary: it was outrageous precisely because it was true but intolerable to progressive sensitivities.

In other words, the potency of taboo is still strong in our superficially rational culture. There are some things—quite a few, actually, and the list keeps growing—about which one cannot speak the truth or, in many cases, even raise as a subject for discussion without violating the unspoken pact of liberal sanctimoniousness.

Donald Trump, of course, does this regularly, delightedly. Hitherto, his brazenness has only endeared him to his base and driven his critics mad. Perhaps it will be different this time. Maybe the angry censors will descend en masse in effective indignation and drag him from the stage. Again, though, I wouldn’t count on it. Trump’s Haiti moment is cut from the same script as Trump’s “Rosie O’Donnell is a fat pig” mot. Uncouth. Crude. But was it untrue?

We live in a surreal moment when it becomes ever harder to tell the truth about sensitive subjects. Donald Trump has strutted across our timid landscape like a wrecking ball, telling truths, putting noses out of joint. The toffs will never forgive him, but I suspect the American people have stronger stomachs and are up to the task.

https://amgreatness.com/2018/01/12/home-truths-shitholes/

The question is will Trump do some more truth telling and identify our shithole cites, Detroit, San Francisco and New Orleans, all under Democratic leadership.

[MAGA CoVfefe!]

What troll ‘’’fish’’’...who did not vote for Trump...and Trumpers are ignoring is Toilet mouth Trumpski wants only fair skinned Nordic immigrant types...RACIST!!!

[MAGA CoVfefe!]

MAGA,

http://www.weaklypolitical.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Shithole-1024x848.jpg

[Todd Juvinall]

Funny how those same liberals doing their PC outrage about Trump calling those countries shitholes are the same people that would not move into the Southside of Chicago because they say it is a shithole. You cannot make this stuff up.

[MAGA CoVfefe!]

Look who’s talking!!!

https://www.cartoonmovement.com/depot/cartoons/2018/01/11/shithole__pedro_x__molina_72u0gXA.jpeg

[Gregory]

Paul 636pm

Thanks for the Durbin quote.

If I may summarize, Trump said 'Haitians. Do we need more Haitians?'

Trump also said "blah blah blah shitholes blah blah blah blah blah shitholes ... "

There was nothing else specifically claimed that Trump said. Other than he repeated shitholes a number of times, according to Senator Durbin.

Everything else you've claimed was your imagination filling in for the blah blah blahs.

Do I think Trump said shithole one or more times? Does a bear shit in the woods?

[Bill Tozer]

Meanwhile, we have a homeless “crisis”, housing “crisis”, budget “crisis”and water “crisis”, unfunded liability “crisis”. Perhaps focusing more on squeezing down on the flow of illegal immigration is more important as we devolop legal immigration policy to decide what we want the future of this nation to “look” like (no, ain’t talking about the trigger word color “look like” ) and the direction our sovereign nation embarks as we enter the brave new world. I. e., our future.

What’ is our commonality? What unites us? What makes us Americans? Multiculturalism has failed us because it is by design, a divider. Tribalism. And the stronger more aggressive tribes always conquer the more laid back tribes well before man ever stomped grapes.
Who will be the makers and who will be the takers? I see no policy put forth by the Lefties, academia or Social Justice Warriors that achieves a vibrant economy which is the underpinnings for strengthening our nation, our people, our immigration policy/reform.

“And it is no surprise that a majority of Americans agree that if we leave the next generation “worse off” that there will still be a place called “the United States” but there will no longer be an “America.”——-Pat Caddell, one day before the 2016 election.

The link below is NOT about immigration, but it is important to recognize new parigrams as we discuss a host of issues, including legal immigration, illegal immigration, and the corresponding forces at work in the media class, the political class, and the “financial elites”.

“It is an uprising. It is a peaceful uprising of a people who see a country in decline and see nothing but failure in the performance of their leadership institutions. And they have signaled their intent to take back their country and to reclaim their sovereignty.

, Second, for more than three centuries, the animating moral obligation of America has been the self-imposed obligation that each generation passes on to its children a better America than they themselves inherited. This is what makes us Americans. In Armada’s polling we found that a majority of Americans believe that they are better off than their parents were. But a great majority says that THEIR children will be worse off than they themselves are today. This is the crisis of the American Dream. And it is no surprise that a majority of Americans agree that if we leave the next generation “worse off” that there will still be a place called “the United States” but there will no longer be an “America.”

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/11/07/patrick-caddell-real-election-surprise-uprising-american-people.html

[Paul Emery]

So then Gregory you agree that Trump is lying when he says he never used that language.

""The language used by me at the DACA meeting was tough, but this was not the language used. What was really tough was the outlandish proposal made - a big setback for DACA!" Trump tweeted."

[George Rebane]

Back to the TDS two-step - dum-de-dum-dumb.

[fish]

Posted by: MAGA CoVfefe! | 13 January 2018 at 12:41 PM

Caretaker not around to help you?

[Gregory]

Never used what language, Paul... the "shithole" word or the fill-ins for blah blah blah you and others have added? Trump didn't specify.

Sorry I can't help you in your Trump hunt.

[Paul Emery]

Well George don't you think it's important for the President of the United states to be truthful and honest to the American people. what he said was incredibly stupid and counterproductive to any meaningful discussion. All he had to do was say yes I said that and I regret the language I used.

Odd RR contributors didn't give Hillary the same latitude when she was incredibly stupid and used the Deplorables wording.

[Bill Tozer]

Russ @ 12:30 pm

Thank you. Good find. Great read and great writing. Thankyou again, sir.

Now, let’s not get distracted here and kindly turn our undivided attention upon feigned moral outrage, aka, “Back to the TDS two-step - dum-de-dum-dumb”.

[Bill Tozer]

We have to end chain migration.

Canada does not allow old granny or Uncle Sally or adult children in either,, just the worker and...eventually, their spouse and child upon proving over a probationary period of time that the worker can indeed take care of and financially support the spouse and child. Family unification means flying home to attend family reunions.

“While asking Congress to pass the expansive and failed “DREAM Act” amnesty, which would start by legalizing millions of illegal aliens, Durbin touted the fact that the legislation at the time would have ended chain migration, preventing newly amnestied illegal aliens from bringing their extended family members to the U.S.

The DREAM Act would not allow what is known as chain migration,” Durbin said. “In fact, DREAM Act students would have very limited ability to sponsor their family members for legal status.” [Emphasis added]

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/01/12/watch-dick-durbin-advocated-for-ending-chain-migration-in-2010-a-term-he-now-says-is-racist/

[fish]

Posted by: Paul Emery | 13 January 2018 at 01:19 PM

Odd RR contributors didn't give Hillary the same latitude when she was incredibly stupid and used the Deplorables wording.

Funny.....I don’t remember any consternation on your part when Hillary said those things!

[Bill Tozer]

SHC an excuse to avoid talks about immigration reform? Nay, that can’t be. Probably just some fakenews pushed forth by the Vast Right Wing Russian Aided Conspiracy spreading its lies again.

Exhibit 1:

http://www.breitbart.com/radio/2018/01/12/lamar-smith-democrats-using-shole-comments-distraction-excuse-avoid-talks/

:)

[Walt]

"Truthful and honest"? Trump Has been doing just that.
No way can the same be said about Hillary, "O", Bubba, and Proggys in general.
Even Doug hides behind a fake name.(MANY of them)

[Walt]

Another tells it like it is.
http://www.breitbart.com/radio/2018/01/13/retired-seal-erik-prince-some-places-are-sholes-literally-trumps-comment-accurate/
This guy has plenty more credibility than Paul.

[Bill Tozer]

Fish @ 2:11 pm.

The obvious difference is that My Gal referred specifically to Trump supporters. “Half of Trump supporters” are a basket full of Deplorables.... then on to describe the other half, being racists, sexist, homophobic, Islamophobic, mysognist....blah, blah, blah. Nothing that our Enlightened Ones standing on their Pedestal of Righteous Morality have not hurled at us knuckledraggers often and over a long period of time....with glee and every chance they got. The only thing new Hillary said were the glorious words “deplorables” and the even lower esteemed “Irredeemables.”

No offense taken, Hillary. We proudly got on board and proudly shared our Deplorable buttons, action figures, and memes with one another...with glee. A truly unifying moment.

Contrary to public opinion, My Gal gave her Basket Full Of DeplorableS (plural) speech twice. Once on a Sunday afternoon on a small local Spanish speaking TV station. Since there was no pushback and since she is amazingly politically tone deaf, her team thought it would be a great idea to repeat those lines on a Tuesday...to a bigger audience. She seemed so happy reciting the punch lines. Then she said she was referring only to Donald Trump, not his shitty supporters, lol. Sure Hillary, anything you say...

The other difference is that Trump was referring to foreign nations and far off regions, while Hillary was referring specifically to US citizens whom she disagreed with. She singled out people, American people. Trump singled open latrine countries, not his fellow countrymen. Hillary dissed Americans, human beings of certain political beliefs she disagreed with, if you will.
Guess that means Trump took the high road.

[Scenes]

"Everyone, near enough, knows that he was telling a home truth. It was outrageous not because he said something crude that was untrue. Quite the contrary: it was outrageous precisely because it was true but intolerable to progressive sensitivities."

I admit that that is a nice turn of phrase.

It would be amazing to thing of Trumpism as merely the tearing down of the scaffolding of Green Libertarian falsehoods. Where do you end up when everybody, not only the Emperor, is made bare?

It's madness I tell you. Sturgeon's Law applied to 50 years of Western political thinking.

[Scenes]

Mr Fish referring to Saint Paul: "Funny.....I don’t remember any consternation on your part when Hillary said those things!"

It's because he didn't vote for her the second time.

[MAGA CoVfefe!]

Norwegians,,,Slovenians,,,Czechoslovakians ...good...Brown,,,Black,,,Yellow people countries...Shitholes!!!!

Racist!!!

[Bonnie McGuire]

It's pretty obvious this SHC preoccupation is just another distraction to cause disruption in America. Anyone paying attention to our world history knows America has been helping those countries for 100 years. The problem has always been corrupt leaders and internal wars destroying progress...especially Africa. I remember a farmer's former employee begging him to restore his farm after they destroyed it. He replied that he was too old, and if he did some Communist would incite them to do it all over again. Not many years ago the Human Rights people begged the United Nations to stop the continual killing in Africa. The UN said they'd look into it. Finally they did and claimed the killing was merely ethnic cleansing. What about human rights? Wasn't it called genocide in Germany? Ever see the movie "Behind the Gate?" Or have you read "Out of America" by the Journalist assigned to report on the progress in Africa. He was thrilled to be going there until he saw all the butchered bodies of men women and children clogging the river...and being scrutinized that he was black enough, nose wide enough to be allowed to live. He was thankful his ancestors came to America as slaves, or he wouldn't have had a chance. Not much media coverage on any of this by those who claim to love people. Also, money America gave to improve the country's living conditions wound up in a Swiss bank, and the former Leader building himself a retirement mansion in another country. Sound familiar? I wonder if the next big breaking news story about Trump (and family) will be what brand of toilet tissue they use...Pretty hard cleaning out the "entitled" who created and inhabit our own swamp after so many years.
I hope President Trump and sincere helpers can accomplish his goal to make America wonderful. What's wrong with that?

[Scenes]

"I remember a farmer's former employee begging him to restore his farm after they destroyed it. He replied that he was too old, and if he did some Communist would incite them to do it all over again. "

Hopefully he wasn't a Rhodesian.

[Todd Juvinall]

MAGA CoVfefe! | 13 January 2018 at 03:04 PM
Since we import legally and illegally about 20-1 brown and black people over whites, how does that square ith your hysterical screed about racism against the "colors" over the whites? Should it not be reversed to make your claim valid?

[fish]

.....Brown,,,Black,,,Yellow

The contents of the diaper Doug? Probably want to have the “black” checked by a doctor.

[Walt]

Todd. It goes to show that covfefe didn't think through his new name. Go back to clueless. "covfefe" means,,,(OH your going to love this) "Kofefe: pregnant but in fear of it."
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/the-meaning-of-the-word-covfefe-in-the-samoan-language_us_592f0f0ae4b017b267edff7e

And in other places "he" goes by "Cofefe is my slave name".
Keep up the good laughs at your expense Dougy....

[Paul Emery]

Didn't vote for or support Hillary Fish.

[Paul Emery]

She only ran once Scenes. thought you knew that

[Bill Tozer]

Guess 2008 didn’t count.

Those who are easily offended are easily manipulated.

[fish]

Posted by: Paul Emery | 13 January 2018 at 03:45 PM

No but you certainly didn’t support Trump yet you spare no effort criticizing his
speech! I thought that you were the self appointed speech monitor for politicians aspiring to the presidency!

[MAGA CoVfefe!]

Afraid to acknowledge Trumpedy’s making the distinction between Norway and Shithole countries ToddJ???

[Bill Tozer]

No naked links.
https://www.facebook.com/lastamericapatriots/photos/a.235087906641439.1073741826.235086849974878/981501765333379/?type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.217983685002343.55586.217926015008110/1237514686382566/?type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.217983685002343.55586.217926015008110/1237467096387325/?type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=632206440307185&set=p.632206440307185&type=3&theater

[Don Bessee]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/12/world/europe/trump-immigration-outrage.html

So when President Trump said he did not want immigrants from “shithole” countries, there was ringing silence across broad parts of the European Union, especially in the east, and certainly no chorus of condemnation.

Reality check. ;-)

[George Rebane]

To counter PaulE's denials of supporting Hillary, one need only read a smattering (yes, just a dab'll do ya) of his 2016 assessments and exhortations of Hillary, her qualifications, chances, proud polling numbers, ... contrasted with what he dished out to The Donald. I guarantee you'll finish that little research of these comment streams with a smile on your face.

[Don Bessee]

Is it the location or the leftie administrate that makes it a shithole?

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/01/13/sad-khan-protesters-disrupt-mayors-speech-londoners-wake-sadiqs-shthole/

despite claims by Khan in March 2017 that London is “the safest global city in the world, and one of the safest cities in the world,” the latest crime statistics show youth homicides are up by an astonishing 70 per cent.
Total homicides are up by 27.1 per cent, serious youth violence 19 per cent, robbery 33.4 per cent, and burglaries 18.7 per cent, among a host of other double-digit rises.

;-)

[Don Bessee]

&$(#()^ auto correct, administration. ;-)

[Gregory]

RealClearPolitics linked to this gem of an op-ed at City Journal:

Of Crudeness and Truth

... I don’t know exactly what Trump said in a closed-door meeting with senators at the White House this week. Unnamed sources say that he referred to some African countries and Haiti as “shitholes.” Maybe so; sounds like him. In any case, when it comes to a chance to attack Trump, our journalists don’t waste time with fact-gathering or source-identifying. Like Madonna, they just strike a pose. Various media knuckleheads have reacted to the alleged comment by calling Trump “racist,” “Nazi,” “Evil,” and a “terrorist sympathizer.”

(Personally, my first thought on hearing about the remark was: “What squirrely little tattle-tale of a weasel went running to the press with that?” But never mind. That’s just me.)

Let’s state the obvious. Some countries are shitholes. To claim that this is racist is racist. They are not shitholes because of the color of the populace but because of bad ideas, corrupt governance, false religion, and broken culture. Further, most of the problems in these countries are generated at the top. Plenty of rank-and-file immigrants from such ruined venues ultimately make good Americans—witness those who came from 1840s potato-famine Ireland, a shithole if ever there was one! It takes caution and skill to separate the good from the bad.

For these very reasons, absurd immigration procedures like chain migration, lotteries, and unvetted entries are deeply destructive. They can lead to the sort of poor choices that create a Rotherham. Trump’s suggestions—to vet immigrants for pro-American ideas and skills that will help our country—are smart and reasonable and would clearly make the system better if implemented. ...

https://www.city-journal.org/html/crudeness-and-truth-15668.html

For the record (thanks, Paul), the squirrely little tattle-tale of a weasel that went running to the press was little Dick Durbin, Senator D-Illinois.

I can't resist this scene from Blazing Saddles!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boO4RowROiw
A happy ending to a difficult racial divide in a movie that could not be made today.

[Don Bessee]

http://www.breitbart.com/radio/2018/01/13/retired-seal-erik-prince-some-places-are-sholes-literally-trumps-comment-accurate/

;-)

[Gregory]

I believe Hillary ran for President twice, the first time getting beaten in the primaries in 2008 by a young, fresh faced and clean first term Senator from Illinois who gave good teleprompter in the 2004 Dem convention.

[Bill Tozer]

Gregory @ 4:26 pm

Sidebar; Thank you. For quite awhile after reading reports from European countries about the continuous roving gangs of rapists terrorizing the good willed countries from Scandinavia to France and beyond, I have been crying out “Where are the men? We’re are the broad shouldered Germen men and the big strong Swedish men protecting their wives, sisters, daughters, and women folk? Where are they?!????!!??”

Yes, it’s against the law to sleep with a baseball bat under your bed in Sweden. But, that don’t explain the absence of thousands of men across Europe and Britain grouping up outside a pub, then set off to protect and patrol the streets for the safe passage of their countries’ women. “Where the Sam Hill are the European men?” I have repeatily shouted skyward after each and every Muslim Gang lawlessly grabbing, gropping, robbing, and raping women by the dozen in public.

The article you posted finally answered my question.

“....... fear of the Nurse Ratcheds in the press and the academy than have him neutered and gagged by a system of good manners that has been misused as a form of oppression.”

The men of Europe have been neutered. Thank you. My question has been answered.

To continue with good manners, I would be amiss to fail to mention that every once in a while you post some great links. The Reason article (tying Trump’s victory to the backlash against PC rang quite true by my simple observation of witnessing some lifelong Democrat Only friends voting for Trump) was a gem. There are a couple other gems you have posted, and Russ posted a good one today. Scenes and Fish also dig below the surface to uncover the occasional diamond in the rough.

If I were to choose just one link you posted that I see in action on a daily basis, it is hands down the Monty Python “argument” skit. Thought of that one a lot reading comments by one poster over the last 24 hours and other days. Hat tip.

Oh yeah, this whole post is on topic. Immigration....immigrants...Norway!, North Africans.....and how to discuss these issues without stepping into a shithole.

[Bill Tozer]

....
https://www.facebook.com/lastamericapatriots/photos/a.235087906641439.1073741826.235086849974878/981507515332804/?type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.217983685002343.55586.217926015008110/1237131209754247/?type=3&theater

Is Dick Durbin still on his fainting couch?

[Paul Emery]

Didn't support her then Gregory

[Gregory]

Toes, I appreciate being appreciated. Thanks for the kind words, I do try to be relevant, thoughtful and entertaining.

Yes, the Argument Sketch is a classic for all time.

[Todd Juvinall]

Somehow Paul Emery thinks we forgot all he has written in support of Hillary Clinton and her ilk on these pages. Never mind he creams his jeans in political lust for her policies and ideas. He always bashes anyone lo the right od Mao.

[Paul Emery]

Show me one quote where I supported Hillary Gregory. You mistake my opposition and dusgust with Trump with support for Hillary. Again show me one quote.

[Bill Tozer]

My, that didn’t take long. Love the Argument Sketch.

[George Rebane]

What's it called again when you attack and denigrate one person in a two person race in order to lower that person's chance of winning, and thereby increase the other person's chance for winning?

[Todd Juvinall]

It is called Emeryazation

[fish]

Posted by: Paul Emery | 13 January 2018 at 03:45 PM

Didn't vote for or support Hillary Fish.

Punch....any comment why you still carried the water for Hillary here (constant delivery of poll results, unrestrained demonstrations of glee by you about her probable coronation, etc.) after her "deplorables" comment?

I mean if decorum is so important to you in the at the time likely presidential victor, I would have thought that a comment regarding her statement would have been forthcoming.

[Scenes]

re: Paul Emery @ 9:25PM

Yes you did.

re: Haiti

I wonder how long it'll be before NPR pulls this story.

https://www.npr.org/2017/07/30/540359412/haiti-s-bayakou-hauling-away-human-excrement-by-hand

[Bill Tozer]

@ 10:58 pm

Being Tanya Hardingized?

[Walt]

Paul said this about Hillary.
"This will seal the deal for Clinton in Virginia.

" Former Republican Sen. John Warner endorsed Hillary Clinton on Wednesday, calling her “prepared to be a world leader and the United States president.”

[Walt]

Another comes out to say,,, "No,, that's not what was said."
http://www.breitbart.com/video/2018/01/14/gop-sen-perdue-gross-misrepresentation-trump-not-make-shithole-comment/
Before this is all over, it's LIBS who will be looking up through the sh*t hole as they are waist deep in their "own". Someone call the pump truck. Proggys need an exit plan.

[Todd Juvinall]

Paul Emery is just delusional about what he does and doesn't say about the democrats. All his postings favor the dems and excoriate the R's. And he calls us dumbkoffs.