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18 April 2018


George Boardman

This even should be held in a venue that can accommodate anybody who wants to attend. I didn't bother when I learned I needed a reservation to attend.

But I don't think there's any conspiracy here. It's just another example of the well-meaning but clueless people who seem to populate this area.


I got that buzz from the original announcement, George. It was always limited seating and questions submitted and screened (by someone).

Their facebook page suggests there are only 17 people signed up to go, with another nine thinking of it but that might not include non-facebook enrollees.


George, that is the original announcement, which has been posted on their fakebook page multiple times since April 8.

Bill Tozer

Dr. Rebane,

The second you originally posted the upcoming March on Townhall on 4/20, my reaction was: limited seating, pre-approved questions, and no way would I find a seat or be allowed in even if I arrived hours early.....probably not on the pre-approved guest list anyway. Bouncer at the door says “Exnay to you, Deplorable.” Not open to the public, just a selected focus group. Stacked panel, stacked audience. Patty Smith and her group of starving artists are putting on the show for pete’s sake, That was my instinct and is proven correct. “Forget it,” I thought.

That was the catalyst for saying “waste of time, ain’t going”, not a disinterest in the event, stacked deck or not. Very interested, very very interested to attend, but I knew no way Jose with that panel and control freaks controlling who is allowed in. Hope that clears up any misunderstanding or misreading of my defeatist attitude and resigned disinterest.

I do have a fantasy. The fantasy is I stand at the microphone and direct my question to the shrink. I will raise my voice and look directly in her/his/it’s eyes and say, “Hey twat, are you going to take my guns? Come on, bitch, come and get them right now, Come on, pussy, do it now.” Then, with eyes firmly fixed, I take half a step forward and say, “Boo!” Then a big belly laugh, turn and walk back to my seat. Wonder if the shrink will have to go find a therapist or get on disability for PTSD. Ah, just silly passing thoughts to liven the event up...and this thread.

I will be there by the time it’s over to hang back all nice and meek and polite like and undetected to make sure you get to your car unmolested.

Don Bessee

Its interesting that they put it in a small venue that leans. Sounds like it is more about pushing a message that supports their candidates a couple of weeks before the mail ballots hit everyone's mailboxes. ;-)

Bill Tozer

Oh Don, how cynical of you.
There are true believers on both sides. That’s the way it should be, in a perfect world. Interesting to hear about school safety, first and foremost. Bet they take up our suggestions to harden up the schools a wee bit. It’s the most tangible proactive practical effective step and doable.
“If you see something, report it” is another proactive step to protect the high school “children” sitting in little chairs with little desks....before they go racing around in cars when school lets out. Guess those who stay after for the Miners’ varsity football practice are called children as well, but don’t tell them that.
If you see something, report it. Don’t know if you can ever stop bullying or taunting in the playground, but it’s worth a try. The anti-social ones can be shipped off to charter school for a more welcoming environment. Children can be brutal and make going to school a miserable hell experience for those who don’t fit in.
Too bad I will miss listening to the child speaker from NU. Punchy says it most moving and tugs at the heartstrings, no doubt. Hey, I always cry when hearing a good story, more often than not.

George Rebane

Some may think that their posting on Facebook is all that's necessary. And then there are those who have never heard of FARM, let alone visit their FB page to see their latest. Dream on.


AR15 used in SELF DEFENSE.

Good luck hearing it from anti gun LIB news.
Oh... Yes.. a "high capacity" magazine was also involved. Things may have gone the other way if they were stuck with a Proggy "safe" magazine with only a few bullets.

Bill Tozer

Concerning Guns: A Community Dialouge.

The anti-gun folks have no problem with dialouge about violence. They express their views quite well, despite the irony. It’s who they are.

“One guy hunted down my private cell phone number, called when police were here, threatened to shoot me in my front yard,” she wrote on Twitter. “Another guy created a string of social media accounts, posted photos of my house, threatened to rape me to death.”
Some gun-control advocates even went so far as to threaten the lives of her children.


Like I have said before, get rid of the Lefties and you just got rid of 90% of the violence.

Bill Tozer

Come to think of it, the Community Dialogue is nothing but a media event. NCTV will be there filming live. the community alternative FM station airing live, and live streaming on the internet. You can bet your bottom dollar the Union will send a reporter and photographer. Made for TV. Just another lefty media event.



Too late for George tonight, but here's a fresh Reason podcast that is very apropos:


Bill Tozer

Sr. Rebane,

Smooth sailing and don’t forget to remind your fellow panelists to check their white privilege at the door...sometime during the middle of the “dialogue”.


Bill Tozer

Opps. On second thought, you will just need to be yourself, not luck.


Remember the only one to sue the crap out of Nevada County in the aftermath of the Scott Thorpe was a fairly unstable woman who did not see the shooter, did not see anyone get shot, was not even in the room, but heard a shot down the hall and leaped from a window, breaking her ankle. Anvery very expensive broken ankle for the County and months of therapy for her, “the victim”. Oh yeah, the trembling leaf was a mental health worker. There is a reason they get into that field.

Todd Juvinall

Hillary Hodge stated last night that she was against the sale of AR-57's.

Don Bessee

Wat dat @ 410?

Did anyone else notice how after all the student gun marches, walkouts that suddenly we have a new bunch being reported on 420? Couldn't have anything to do with it being 420 could it?



re: ToddJ@4:10PM

Maybe she meant the AR-17, although she doesn't strike me as a shotgun kind o' gal.

George, good luck at the 2 Hour Hate. It should be a trip. The trick is to maintain equanimity. Like some Roman guy said:

"Is it not cruel, to restrain men from desiring, or pursuing, what appears to them as their proper good or advantage? And yet you seem chargeable
in a certain manner with this conduct, when you are angry at the mistakes,
and wrong actions of men: for, all are carried toward what appears to them
their proper good. But, say you, it is not their proper good. Well:
instruct them, then, and teach them better, and don’t be angry with them."

Account Deleted

It went per usual - Silver haired Gomes stated he worked for the legislature for 8 years. It showed. Buzz words. The English teacher roped into school security brought little to the table. The high school brat wanted big brother to take care of us. The Range owner wanted more business via govt dictate. Ms Wilcox did her usual - "my daughter got shot dead with a gun, so you had better listen to me or I'll cry and make you feel bad." Has anyone ever asked her what she would have done if her daughter had been strangled or knifed? I know - not allowed. She'll start crying.
George did his best although the opening part was lost on the crowd. His closing was point on. Basically - you want to save youngins? Then focus on what kill 'em.
But - that was never the point, was it?

Biker Bill Tozer and his Minutemen

Scott, I had a different take. It went very well. Nice polite civil exchange of ideas. So well that I was outside around the block listening on the ray -dee-o with two fine gentlemen in a sinister dark SUV with tinted windows in case Dr. Rebane needed an escort. With Mr. Johnson and other panelists who train LE or work with LE around Dr. Rebane, I felt there was no need to hang around. Besides, it’s 4/20 and it all sounded mellow. :). We rolled out of there probably 20 minutes before it ended and listened on the radio as the mission was called off. It’s Nirvana City, for criminy jeepers.

If I were to nitpick, I felt Ms. Wilcox wandered off in the weeds too often by repeatedly going back to suicide to tie that into community safety. Besides that, she was fine. The kid was fine. Liked his comment about asking a teacher what was the plan and the answer was, “I dunno, climb under the desk?” Not to ridicule his teacher, but it told me that there has not been a coordinated well thought out plan put in place...yet. That will come. Probably after or during the summer recess. “Barricade, not get under the desk” was was a good answer by the panelist who jumped on that one. That was her expertise.
The articulate kid brought up the old debate point about Chicago. Guns enter Chicago via adjoining states and locales. My tried and true answer is “if that is true, why don’t those adjoining states and locales have the same crime rates?”, i.e., it’s the criminal, not the gun. But, that’s just me from the peanut gallery.

Liked Mr. Johnson a lot. He cut through the crap. “If someone commits suicide, tough titty. I am sorry, not! Boo-hoo. We are here to protect our children first and foremost.” Did not hear much about behavioral health, which can be discussed on other forums.

Fear is a huge topic and I loved Dr. Rebane’s perfect answer. Kids look to their parents for get their clues. The dialogue also confirmed my long held belief that kids are a hell of a lot more resilient and adaptable than the press and parents and teachers give “the children” credit for. The real fear is to be found generated by teachers, parents, the Lefties, and the MSM, IMHO. Barricade? Kids like to built forts!

I wished the point of seconds matter was hammered home...matter so much that you got to have armed LE/security close, real close, very very close when seconds matter. Like on the grounds close. The school is the target, not some place down the street. Big point to me, but I was not on the panel. It was addressed in other ways. Liked the comment that some schools don’t like/want cops around. That is true and could be a high hurdle to overcome.

The last statement was the best, almost took my breath away. To paraphrase, “after all this talk, what the hell have we done to make NU safer tomorrow morning? Not one damn thing.” Shat or get off the pot. I could hear others in the audience reacting the same as me, almost taking their breath away as well. A tiny involuntary gasp. Or, it could have been my imagination, but I choose to believe not. Focus, people, focus. NU tomorrow, is it safer than today?

The only irritant I had was when KVMR cut away 2-3 times to give shout outs to their underwriters while the panelists were talking. That sucked, by what do you expect from amateurish alternative lefty underground FM radio. ;)

Account Deleted

My 'review' of the show was just a quick one as it was late and I wanted to hit the sack. It was polite and well ordered. Definitely. Johnson did have some very good things to say. But I didn't like his opening line about needing full gun registration. It doesn't stop gun violence and it provides the govt with a list of houses to visit. His comment on suicide was honest but probably came across as heartless and uncaring to most of that crowd. The HS kid was a left-wing tool. Cherry picked factoids and playing up the "I'm soooo fwightened!" BS. Wilcox couldn't get her story straight. She pointed out that CA had more guns than ever, yet also had a declining gun violence problem. She 'forgot' to mention that it was true for the rest of the nation even in states that don't have CA's strict gun control laws. She then said that "less guns equals less gun violence". Uh, honey - you just stated the opposite.
Watched it on NCTV (streamed) and thought they did OK, with only a few camera miscues.
All in all, everyone played their part. The judge did a good job of moderating.
No one changed anyone's mind and today we get up and get on with our lives until the next nut job goes off the rails and it starts up all over.


CDC, in Surveys It Never Bothered Making Public, Provides More Evidence that Plenty of Americans Innocently Defend Themselves with Guns
CDC surveys in the 1990s, never publicly reported, indicate nearly 2.5 million defensive uses of guns a year. That matches the results of Gary Kleck's controversial surveys, and it indicates more defensive than offensive uses of guns.


Perhaps a little late for the debate, but it continues.


The *hiding* of the inconvenient data the CDC collected is not surprising... they'd been banned from doing gun control research in the '90's BECAUSE it was the sense of the Congress the CDC was biased. The Congress was correct, as was the NRA.

Here's a WaPo piece from three years ago decrying the CDC not breaking free:

Marillyn Lock-Heed

,,,sure scott,,,let's track mj from seed to sale,,,ridiculous!!!,,,but don't you dare make my gun trackable!!!

Patricia Smith

I don't have time to read all your comments, bvut I read enough to get the drift. This event was open to everyone on a first-come first-served basis. We spread the word in every venue we could including KNCO. There was a fairly equal representtion of conservative and progressives in the audience as evidenced by all the NRA T-Shirts & caps.

The resason for the reservations was simply crowd control. The reason the City Hall venue was selected was simply because it is the easiest to broadcast BOTH Comcast and KVMR - and the venue was free.

I think the event was a success in that it did bring two sides together to talk about a difficult issue. I don't think we succeeded in that not enough time was spent on solutions and too much time was spent on causes. I am envisioning a follow-up event where we focus on one possible solution at a time and then let the audience vote on whether they agree or disagree.

I perdonally met a very conservative woman last night who was fairly skeptical of my intentions but the longer we talked the more we found items we agreed on and we respectfully agreed to disagree on others. I won't name her for fear of ruining her reputation by associating with me!

I want to thank Dr Rebane for his participation and that he made it out of the venue safely. We progressives are harmless most of the time - just don't cross us on animal rights, cannabis, freedpm of choice immigration....lol


"Freedom of choice" you say? LOL!! What a load! BS on the highest order! Spare us the Proggy sale pitch.
That so-called "freedom" you speak of is what you Lefties care to decide. Like our "freedom of choice" of firearms. Most of the time your side can't even define what firearm is which, or how it even functions. Yet somehow "your side" knows best.
"Progressive" is just a polite word for Communist. " Your freedom to choose is what we say it is."
"We don't want you to own "X", because we think it's scary looking"

One thing has been proven true. A Proggy in power and control is a vary dangerous thing. This state called Ca. is proof enough.

Patricia Smith

Oh Walt, you are so predictable!

Todd Juvinall

Walt I think the left misunderstands the meaning of "choice". They want to force their choices down our throats and when we point it out they say we are against choice. I imagine the left is so conflicted they need medication to deal with the inner conflicts they possess.

Marillyn Lock-Heed

I am going to start my own NRA,,,National Reefer Association!!! You can take my reefer from my cold dead hand!!!
,,,all the 2nd amendment gun owner par force types are sure to join!!!

Bill Tozer

The only thing Patricia Smith cares about is the freedom to smoke pot and murder babies. And no, Patricia, you progressives are not harmless. You cannot spell Progressive without ss. Go murder some more babies today.

Patricia Smith

Marillyn Lock-Heed | 21 April 2018 at 12:43 PM

No the 2nd Amendment folks won't join. You can't own a gun if you are a MMJ patient!

Don Bessee

In the spirit of balance -

In 1996, 1997, and 1998, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) conducted large-scale national surveys asking about defensive gun use (DGU). They never released the findings, or even acknowledged they had studied the topic. I obtained the unpublished raw data and computed the prevalence of DGU. CDC’s findings indicated that an average of 2.46 million U.S. adults used a gun for self-defense in each of the years from 1996 through 1998 – almost exactly confirming the estimate for 1992 of Kleck and Gertz (1995). Possible reasons for CDC’s suppression of these findings are discussed.
On April 20, 2018, Reason magazine quoted Kleck’s reaction to the unpublished CDC findings; he explained that a figure of 2.46 million DGUs a year “[implies] that guns were used defensively by victims about 3.6 times as often as they were used offensively by criminals.”



Patricia Smith

Bill Tozer | 21 April 2018 at 12:46 PM

We'll talk when you show as much compassion for the living as you do for the unborn.


That's all you have Pat? "your so predictable"...
Yet don't refute one damned thing I said. Yup,, that old saying works. "Can't defend the "undefendable".

It's starting to look like this Patty Smith,, is a carbon copy of a "jon"Smith. Your "brother"?


Good one Pat,,
"We'll talk when you show as much compassion for the living as you do for the unborn" WE actually want to see the "unborn" LIVE!!!
You got your "dope for all",, what's the bitch? Now to see homelessness go up, drug rehab intakes go up, welfare to go up,, all because of dope.(a DRUG) DOPE kills the gumption to get up and take on the day.(FACT) Why work when you can lay around and get stoned all day, and rake in a welfare check? And anything these days passes for a disability. Dope smokers.. the "new" disabled.
By the way you talk, every person in the county is a cancer patient. "dope is just medicine". Your high, if you think most buy that excuse.
I know a guy who uses the excuse that dope smoke calms his coughing. It helps him breath. ( yaaa... you go with that.)


"We'll talk when you show as much compassion for the living as you do for the unborn."

An interesting argument, and perhaps a fundamental one.

It seems to me that there are two general states of mind here.

1) All humans have equal value. The fact that they can breathe (ie. have been born) is unimportant. In this world, a fertilized egg = an infant = and adult = someone close to death.
2) Humans become humans once they are born. Before that, they are purely the property of a mother.

a third concept might be:

3) Humans have economic value. Before birth they are worth very little. After a few years they are worth a lot. A 20 year old (or thereabouts) is worth the most of all. An 80 year old is worth very little.
Thus, economic resources like schooling, medical care, general upkeep, would best be spent on people in their late teens and early 20's.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but people might be well advised to think through their own philosophy.


One more jab at the Proggy... Your quick to snuff the life of an unborn child, yet go to the ends of the earth to stop a killer's execution.(anti death penalty) That's some real messed up logic.
Now go smoke a bowl and come up with a way to defend that line of thinking. His/her smoking way too much dope as a child ain't going to fly as an excuse.( That defense has already been used)

Bill Tozer

No Patty, we will not talk. You should have stayed a single issue advocate, advocating for your suffering patiences. Now you stepping into a realm of which you are a threat to rights, not needs. Rights that are not given to me by government or granted by government. Talking done. You are a threat to the Constitution I am duty bound to uphold and defend against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
I wish you well in all your endeavors.


Read it and weep anti gun bast.... people,,
"On April 20, 2018, Reason magazine quoted Kleck’s reaction to the unpublished CDC findings; he explained that a figure of 2.46 million DGUs a year “[implies] that guns were used defensively by victims about 3.6 times as often as they were used offensively by criminals.”

All this time when the Proggys running the CDC this never got out. For good reason(at least for Proggys out to ban guns)
Now that cat is out of the bag.
It looks like the Proggy run gov. is really pro thug. All those unemployed dope smokers need to earn a living too.( ripping off, and holding up the working guy) Gotta put some anti gun protections in for them.


from the paper referred to at DonB @ 1:07PM

"If doubts about the validity of these findings cannot justify their suppression, why did
CDC personnel decide not to report them? One obvious explanation would be that they
recognized that their own surveys’ finding of a high DGU prevalence was unfriendly to gun
control efforts - efforts repeatedly endorsed by CDC-financed researchers (Kates 2001). Such a
decision could have been made at the level of administrators who supervise the BRFSS, or
perhaps just lower-level personnel who understood that these findings would be unwelcome
news to their bosses. Regardless of how the decision was made, it was a disservice to the
American people, who paid for the survey and the information it yielded, but who were not
allowed to see it and judge its worth for themselves."

I can t say that I'm surprised. It's not dissimilar to papers that disagree with notions of global warm/cooling or the memory hole that Robert Putnam's work gets pushed down (including the bias of Robert Putnam himself).

Basically, we are dealing with a secular religion. It has a goal in sight, and obstacles must be pushed out of the way.

There is no point in compromise.

Big Bad Bug

"You can take my reefer from my cold dead hand!!!"
-Marylyn 1245pm

Your proposal is acceptable.

Bill Tozer

Oh Walt, we should stay on topic. Gun confiscation, not medical grass. There are many who do not own a firearm, perhaps never will, who choose to uphold and defend the Constitution...all of it. I know several such in my neck of the woods. They choose not to exercise their 2nd Amendment Rights, but would never dream of restricting mine.
This ain’t some smorgasbord where we can pick and choice which rights we like and disregard the rest...no matter how “emotional” the topic is.

Here is an example that is I consider some of the most anti-Constitution words ever written. No countries? No borders? No possessions, no property, no religion, nothing worth shedding blood for? Nothing worth dying for? Just a big ole nothing.

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace, you
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can.


"I don't have time to read all your comments, bvut [sic] I read enough to get the drift. This event was open to everyone on a first-come first-served basis. We spread the word in every venue we could including KNCO. There was a fairly equal representtion [sic] of conservative and progressives in the audience as evidenced by all the NRA T-Shirts & caps.

The resason [sic] for the reservations was simply crowd control."

Based on the tittering I heard in the back, it seemed the crowd was lopsided towards the long in the tooth progressives, and there is more to the debate than conservative and progressive. What a limited way to categorize modern-day political beliefs, but it is what many have come to believe about the so-called "Progressives"... in their minds it's the forces of Good vs. the evil Righties.

Yes, it was about crowd control ... you know what would happen if, for example,Doug LaMalfa to hold a "town hall meeting" in a small venue with RSVP seating only and questions submitted on cards handed up for approval before they could be uttered.


"I don't have time to read all your comments, bvut [sic] I read enough to get the drift. This event was open to everyone on a first-come first-served basis. We spread the word in every venue we could including KNCO. There was a fairly equal representtion [sic] of conservative and progressives in the audience as evidenced by all the NRA T-Shirts & caps.

The resason [sic] for the reservations was simply crowd control."

Based on the tittering I heard in the back, it seemed the crowd was lopsided towards the long in the tooth progressives, and there is more to the debate than conservative and progressive. What a limited way to categorize modern-day political beliefs, but it is what many have come to believe about the so-called "Progressives"... in their minds it's the forces of Good vs. the evil Righties.

Yes, it was about crowd control ... you know what would happen if, for example,Doug LaMalfa to hold a "town hall meeting" in a small venue with RSVP seating only and questions submitted on cards handed up for approval before they could be uttered.


But Bill.. The gripe was just printed about the dopers can't have guns! THEY opened the door.(Smith's 21 April 2018 at 01:04 PM) It state against FED law all over again.
Now what does the State law on dope say about gun possession?
Did Moonbat give his blessing? The state say A'OK?

Bill Tozer

Walt, agree on the intersectionality of dope (prescription dope) and gun control. So, it’s a fair topic. And, as I like to point out, Scott Peterson was convicted of double murder for killing his wife Lacy and her unborn son, Connor...in California.

As for the meeting at City Hall, it when well. Judge Anderson came out of the gate saying “We are NOT here not debate the 2nd Amendment.” Ok, then why bother to have a dialogue, Your Honorable Discharge?

No, the meeting did not spend time mostly taking about causes and not solutions. The solutions to protecting local kids was put forth, from writing more laws at the Fderal level to hardening soft targets. The cause is always the gun, lol.

Did learn in CA that “volunteers” protecting schools is not an option if they are armed. Same for teachers and administrators. Ok. Throw that solution away. Wonder if the panel was aware that CA gives grants for school safety for primary and secondary education. Those grants are in the form of providing funds to purchase signs that read ‘Gun Free Zone’. Apply for those school safety grants immediately. :)

Read this this morning (timing is late) and I have brought it up several times....to little interest, save Bonnie. But, it is just another cause, not a solution, I reckon.



Speaking of schools and guns. Pretty girl alert,,, "jon". (your so predicable)

I'm sure this guy is smoking dope.
“We think that the photo is disrespectful of the Walnut Street Bridge and the history behind the historic Chattanooga landmark that has been around since 1889,” the editorial argued.
News flash.. The bridge is made of steel too.


re: BillT@2:58PM

Well, it would be a darned boring 2 minute hate if you started a 'town hall' like that as follows:

. The relationship of psychotropic drugs and shootings.
. Demographics and murder rates.
. A quick 15 minute rundown on California gun law (which hardly anyone seems to know, especially the local Green Libertarians).

I guess you could finish up with a few high school debate club kids with signs just to add a bit of levity.


No more guitar cases. BAN them.
My mistake. It was shotgun this time. NOT an AR57.
The nutcase also listened to "shotgun" . ( Just shoot through the door) Joe Biden.

Bill Tozer

Gregory @ 2:27 pm

Concur. In FARM’s mind, putting the news out about the meeting means putting it on a FB page no one ever head of, aired on NCTV nobody ever watches, and on KVMR, a station only libs, old dopers, and hairy arm pit vegan hippy chicks listen to. Remember how upset the FUE was because KVMR runs Dr. Rebane’s brief few minutes once a week on the far left newshour? It must not be aired anywhere the liberal news hour time slot. It must not ruin my alternative news hour! That says it all. It was a local “artist” Nevada City event. So, from that small narrow prespective, it was indeed putting the word out to a very focused group from very narrow “media” local outlets whose audience is of singular political persuasion.


Here's Ms. Wilcox's argument comparing guns to automobiles... that we, by law, improved automobiles over time and made them safer.

As uttered in a town hall by then President Obama.

He also decries the CDC being barred from researching gun issues and not using the no-fly lists for gun background checks.

Marillyn Lock-Heed

,,,poor bill,,,all he gets is the fox TV echo chamber on his rabbit-ear antenna!!!
His idea of news is fringe websites that run what he wants to hear,,,kind of a ‘’’goldenoldies’’’ of right wing thought.

Bill Tozer

Light up another one, just like the other one, Marilyn.

Oh Scenes, demographics is a factor, but not a pleasant topic to look at. 53% of the homicides are committed by 13% of the population and all that stuff. And I would hazard a guess that maybe 50 percent of that 13 percent reside in areas in and around the inner cities and in the proximity of the urban jungles. That is a separate issue of public safety, not school shootings.

The effectiveness/correlation of strict gun laws and gun violence came up with Dr. Rebane going for the ole standby Chicago and Detroit and Ms. Wilcox interpreted by tossing out CT and MA. Hmmm. I think New Hampshire has the same demographics as Nevada County, Ca. Let’s sidestep that one, shall we.

These school shooters are white males, not black on black crime stats. Mass killers, that is. Hey, it’s giving you white folk a bad name....as if that is possible. Seriously, I was by chance in CO for a week and jogged a lap around a nice high school track I happened upon while about on one of the many pedestrian trails. A week or less after I left that area. the HS became famous for all the wrong reasons, 19 years ago yesterday. White area. High School had a weird name.
Those ones we have forgot in Ore, Kentucky, Florida and the ones we remember like Sandy Hook. White boys...and I haven’t even gone of campus to the Batman Movie Shooter.....

Thus, we can’t say “it can’t happen here to narrow this whole whole ball of wax down to just our community. Our ground zero, if you want to have a “community” dialogue. Scott Thorpe was an Off campus shooter, the biggest shooting that we have had here in decades. Now, what about the schools here.

No judgement on this, just pointing out that it is going to take some time and deep thoughtful consideration (and hopefully wisdom) for everybody to get on the same page or decide what is best for their districts. It’s probably being debated coast to coast.



"These school shooters are white males, not black on black crime stats. "

That's an interesting question to ask I think, and the answer isn't clear.

I started grinding through these:


and so far the count appears to be distributed like 'normal' murders. The other thing that pops out, of course, is that practically all the shootings are with a handgun.

Somebody really should spend an afternoon and build a table of this kind of thing.


I think that school shootings that have the public's full measure of attention involve students and staff at active schools during normal school hours. Not as some of the shootings that have made the lists that are shootings at nighttime in parking lots of decommissioned schools.

People are worried about people coming onto school grounds during school in order to kill as many students and staff as possible. Not drug deals gone bad in the school parking lot at night when everyone else is sleeping.

George Rebane

Here's a little stat (re MarilynnL's 515pm) that's easy to compute from RR comment streams. Compare the number of those on Right citing and knowing the contents of leftwing blogs, cable channels, major networks to the number of citings and content knowledge displayed by those on the Left of conservative outlets. You'll quickly see that ONLY ones who do in fact regularly critically examine both sides are those of us on the starboard rail. And I submit Ms Lock is my Exhibit A for this observation.

Bill Tozer

The weekly Standard came out with their Never Trump cover issue and Bill Kristol, the mag’s head honcho, said unabashedly within the last 14 days that he would vote for Michelle Obama in 2020 rather than Trump, hands down. Yet, I still read the conversative publication (or Neo conversative to the Left) and never pass up the opportunity to read Mother Jones if I find an article that sounds interesting...and the Intercept and those Hillary sites like Hello Giggles. My Google News feeds and the Yahoo News feeds are full of WaPo and Huff-n-Puff Post and plenty of CNN stories and always video clips from Rachel and gang over at PMSNBC. But, there are some writers I do follow because I like them. But, that ain’t the point now, is it?

Now, let’s get back on topic and narrow this down. Shoot shooters. Focus, people, focus....I tell the man in the mirror.
White males, teenagers tending to be in the the late teenage range, from suburbia and bedroom communities, no father around, broken homes, working moms, divorce happened at a critical time of development, and all on psych meds, may have moved into the district since divorce....

Hmm. Well, that’s why Cub Scouts has Den Mothers and there ain’t enough male volunteers and dads around to do the little league baseball or soccer coach, Indian Guides, Royal Rangers, sing around the campfire dads around, so, Mom you play Dad.

That is a lot of white boys with single Moms in our area to look at. Then the head med thang. And the isolation thang. And the hate school thang. That is your “at risk” profile.

Bill Tozer

Oh yeah. Forgot to add high school shooters. College shooters are a horse of a different color.


Let's be clear, George, all signs are pointing to MariLoon L-H being animated by the fisting of Doug Keachie, who thinks everyone deserves to hear his opinion and in order to sell his opinion takes making up names. A man of many sock puppets.

And the ONLY reason I changed to using only my first name on this blog is because Keachie kept sliming me here and George's opinion was that anything goes on his free speech blog, unless of course the handfuls of monkey poop being thrown are in his direction. It's his sandbox.

BTW I did sit through the Hodge-Miller podcast today, and Hilary Hodge is a piece of work. I specifically listened for the claim of someone (Toes?) that she thought the AR-57 should be banned, and if I were to have to come down to one gun to be banned, a nonexistent model like the AR-57 (Armalite had designed eighteen rifles inventively named AR-1, -2, -3, -4, -5, -6, -7, -8. -9, -10, -11, -12, -13, -14, -15, -16, -17 and, finally, the AR-18. It went out of business and, years later armed with the name, a few designs were attempted but none were sold.

Some nuggets of gun wisdom from Ms. Hodge (there may be a transcription error or two):
"AR-57's are weapons of war"
"All semiautomatic or automatic weapons should be out of civilian hands"
"show me your well-regulated militias and I'll relent on some of my gun safety positions"

No, Ms. Hodge, the 2nd amendment does not "advocate for well regulated militias"... in clear 18th century grammar, it states that (Because) a well-regulated militia (is) necessary for the security of a free state, the right of the people to own and carry guns shall not be infringed. Meaning it isn't about guns for shooting at some food but between running to a militia in a 'to arms' call, or shooting at a poorly regulated militia that is subjugating the rights of the people, sure, use your guns to shoot at some food or bad guys trying to harm you..

The Brady mouthpiece to George's right seemed to think such thoughts indicate an irrational fear... no, fear of the current government isn't in the cards, it's the government that might come to power that would convince enough people to turn in the guns and they'll protect everyone. Sure you will.

That said, Dan Miller was also somewhat unclear on the concept, that, golly, he doesn't know why anyone who isn't a bad guy or in the army would need an assault weapon... but at least he was clear that the 2nd Amendment was the law of the land.



"I think that school shootings that have the public's full measure of attention involve students and staff at active schools during normal school hours. Not as some of the shootings that have made the lists that are shootings at nighttime in parking lots of decommissioned schools."

I agree with that, but the tendency will be to conflate all sources of shootings on school grounds in order to beef up the numbers. Following that, you take the most heinous crimes and act as if that's the normal form. Step three, of course, is to make sure that the perps are viewed to be as similar to your political adversaries as possible.

It's not too different than this tendency to add in gun suicides with murder.

Anyhow, the facts of the matter appear to be difficult to track down after spending a few minutes on the matter. If I have absolutely nothing else to do, I might make a spreadsheet of the 142 shootings and try to get to the heart of the thing. I expect that I can guess ahead of time what the most common shootings consist of, but really don't know.

Marillyn Lock-Heed

,,,petty gotchas like ‘’’she said AR-51’’’,,,or “they got it wrong with Massachusetts suicide statistics’’’ do little to help your cause as you try to wiggle out of the straight jacket of facts you are presented with.

“October 24, 2017

Few Americans understand that a gun in the home increases the risk of completed suicide

While the overwhelming majority of firearms researchers and suicide experts agree that a gun in the home increases the risk of suicide, that knowledge has yet to reach the general population. HICRC’s national firearm survey finds that only 15% of Americans agree that the presence of a firearm in the home increases the risk for suicide, and only 30% of health care practitioners agree. Clearly more education about the scientific findings is needed. The article “Public opinion about the relationship between firearm availability and suicide: results from a national survey” by Andrew Conner, Deborah Azrael and Matthew Miller appears as a brief research report in the Annals of Internal Medicine.”



"Few Americans understand that a gun in the home increases the risk of completed suicide"



You know, with this suicide thing, it seems to me that we just need the same laws as Japan, France, South Korea, Belgium, Austria, and Finland. That should solve it.


Golly Keach 8:10am, Tom Lehrer wrote "Don't write naughty words on walls if you can't spell", and a political analog is "Don't name guns to be banned if you're oblivious and ignorant as to what they are and what they're called".

But here's some great information and graphics showing a clear decrease of school shootings, mass shootings and onsey-twosies both, for the last couple decades...

An epidemic? Hardly Every injury and death are tragedies, but exaggeration to punish the uninvolved and innocent in a crafted political frenzy is wrong.


Another Co. about to get educated in economics.

Dopers and mineral water drinkers can't afford high priced coolers.


re: Walt@10:10AM

That's too funny. Doesn't Pelican also make a super high-end cooler? I can't imagine that those guys would ever diss the gun people given their product line.

The way to add insult to injury would be to press for a competitor's product.

George Rebane

Every liberal comment here confirms the different worlds theory. That they don't want to address, and that's the only starting point worth considering because there are no others that have a snowball's chance in hell of coming to any common ground.

BTW, the MA suicide rate was not a petty point corrected; it was a sample from data that refute the entire position about gun regs and suicide rates.


gr 118pm

"Math is hard!"


Hopefully the Hoggman can take down Vanguard.


I mean, whatever it takes, right?

You know, it seems to me that if the Green Libertarians want to run a successful civil war, and for their sake I hope that their opponents don't get too angry about it, they'd be better off sticking to the near-monopolies at the heart of the system. VISA, GoDaddy, Paypal, Facebook/Google, Cloudflare, Amazon, big media companies, a few large banks. You can keep up the pretense of freedom but run the show with a pretty darned iron grip if you have your hand on the controls of a few companies. Maybe they could get Verizon/ATT/Sprint to drop the NRA as a customer.


You do have to laugh. We are living in a world where gun videos and other non-PC topics are moving to pornhub, 4chan is filled with people who push for fitness, independence, Christianity along with all the Hitler/commie talk, Liberals are pro-multinational companies. It's a funny ol' world.

You know things have gotten good when being married, going to church, becoming a marksman, pro-classical education, patriotic, are all viewed as radical acts.

Personally, I'm waiting for the first shareholder lawsuit resulting from a SJW CEO doing a bit of virtue signaling and cutting into profits. That should be a hoot.


Scenes 858am

Following up on your post, I recall a statistic that the NRA came up in the 1980's with was a violent death rate... murders plus suicide. Japan had very few murders but enough suicides, without guns, that their violent death rate was higher than in the USA.

AND, immigrants from Japan to the USA had much lower violent death rates than the folks they left behind despite guns being available practically for the asking. It might be instructive to generate the current numbers for immigrants from Japan, France, South Korea, Belgium, Austria, and Finland. Old country/New World, murder and suicide rates.

While murder is ugly, I'm not sure I'd not choose to grow up in a high murder rate country (like mine!) if the alternative is a culture so oppressive that all age groups are driven to kill themselves from shame. No guns? No problemo dude, there's always buildings and bridges to jump from and even higher "suicide completion" outcomes.

"and for all of you who are looking for something meaningful, we have TNT suppositories for everyone"
- John Belushi in Lemmings, as the Announcer for the Woodchuck Festival of Peace, Love and Death

Todd Juvinall

Anyone buying the "we don't want to confiscate your guns" crapola by the left? Here you go.


Account Deleted

"Few Americans understand that a gun in the home increases the risk of completed suicide".
So - the contention is that in any given home the introduction of a firearm increases the desire by some one in that home to kill themselves?
I'd love to hear the theory about that nonsense. Can't help but notice there's nothing said about the method of the suicide.
What is it about fire arms that causes folks to become irrational?


"What is it about fire arms that causes folks to become irrational?"

The internet.

That, and you can figure that most national issues are merely a continuation of the 2016 Presidential campaign, the longest since 1860.

Sometimes I feel like I should sign up for one of those newspaper archive websites. It would be interesting to see what the news writing looked like in different eras without guessing.


I blame the Proggys for this death.

An 11 year old? REALLY? The young one has not a damned clue about gun politics, yet your side feels the need to use them as tools.
If the child had been in the classroom where by all rights should have been, we would not be reading about it today.

A POX of the house of Progressive!

Account Deleted

Walt - you do know it's the NRAs fault.


It always is Scott.

No good deed goes unpunished. Being the nature lover I am, I have been feeding all sorts of critters. The latest Fox raiding the goods. I failed to reload the bowl ONE night, and the bastard drops a turd right outside the window on the table. The ungrateful SOB.

Winter is coming soon. The Mrs. could use a new fox stole.

Bill Tozer

1) Speaking of walkouts, I was surprised the fine NU young man on the Community Gun Violence Dialogue Panel said that after organizing for the Walkout by getting the word out with some flyers and word of mouth spreading across campus and using social media, 200 hundred fellow Miners joined in on the day and did their 17 minute school walkout. Hmm. How big is NU? I would guess around 2,200-2,300 students. 200 only?

2). You know, with nobody talking about school protection and going off into suicide by gun in the home, it sure looks like their solution is to come for the guns. That would be like killing two birds with one stone and the problem is solved. Just don’t see them taking any half measures because, you know, sucking on the barrel of a gun greatly increases the chances for a successful mission accomplished. . A rather gorgey visual.

Guess it would be in bad taste to say suicide is against the law. Nor would it be fit for polite company to mention that in the reading old Union articles from the Gold Rush days, a new suicide fad was catching on with the miners and others was to wrap a ball of gunpowderup in a cloth, put it in your mouth and light it. Seemed to be a rash of them during one particular two month period.

Bottomline, I think the only solution, the Final Solution (if you will), in the Lefties’ sights is to take away all the guns. School mass shootings is just the way to get more than a foot in the door. Suicides by handguns. Harder with shotguns cause you got to tie that string around the door knob or your big toe. Handguns gotta go.

Oh, if you got offended cause I said “The Final Solution”, well I am offended they are using #Never Again, which is the phrase used to always remember the Holocaust, aka, The Final Solution.


Walt sez:

"Another Co. about to get educated in economics.

Dopers and mineral water drinkers can't afford high priced coolers."

I see that RTIC put a big ol' 2nd Amendment on their Facebook page. They probably can't believe their good luck.

I expect that if I found the need for a super-expensive cooler, I'd buy a Pelican. It's a COO thing.

Todd Juvinall

Reading the article on the Gun townhall today made me laugh. The left wants to keep yapping as they think that will solve "gun violence". The right says a good guy with a gun is the answer. The differences are irreconcilable.

Bill Tozer

Re: Parkland School Massacre: Progressive Ideology Trumps Student Safety

“In the end, it was all about gun control, not safety”


“Not nearly as reprehensible as the action taken by the Board itself. In response to the shooting, the state established the Coach Aaron Feis Guardian Program, named after the hero football coach who died while protecting students. It allocated $67 million statewide for training and payments enabling certain school employees to be armed.

The Board unanimously voted to decline participation.

Adding insult to injury, the Board and Runcie decided to leave the PROMISE program in place. “We’re not going to dismantle a program in this district that is serving and helping kids appropriately because of news that is not fact-based,” he said.

According to the federal Centers for Disease Control, weapons possession, fighting, bullying and attempted suicide all rose for Broward high schools between 2013 and 2015. Additionally, state data reveal that Broward County has the highest level of weapons-related incidents in South Florida.

Those are the facts. Thus, while the progressive clarion calls for gun control remain front and center, and the race-based PROMISE program that shields minority student miscreants remains in place, all students ultimately remain as vulnerable as they ever were.”

Bill Tozer

Keeping teens safe? The bullies are running the classrooms, hallways, and schools.

Restorative Justice, from coast to coast. From 2015. Way too many nuggets to quote, here is a couple at random:

“There have been serious threats against teachers,” Oakland High School science teacher Nancy Caruso told the Christian Science Monitor, and yet the students weren’t expelled. She notes a student who set another student’s hair on fire received a “restorative” talk in lieu of suspension.”

“After spending millions on restorative justice and “courageous conversations about race” training, Portland public schools have seen their students only grow more violent.

After a black high-school boy repeatedly punched his teacher in the face, sending her to the emergency room, the teacher, who is white, was advised by the assistant principal not to press charges. The administrator lectured her about how hard it is for young black men to overcome a criminal record.

Worse, she was told she should examine what role she, “as a white woman” holding unconscious racial biases, played in the attack, according to the Willamette (Oregon) Week.”


Bill Tozer

“Several students also questioned how school district leaders could justify additional investments for police, metal detectors, and the like, when they’ve long said other priorities — such as textbooks, building repairs, and funding for restorative justice programs — couldn’t be funded.”


Ah, Restorative justice programs will stop school shootings and school bullying and make all the kids “feel” safe. Restorative Justice programs probably are not on the top of the list in Nevada County schools, so nevermind. Probably high on Hilary Hodge’s list, but I digress.

Account Deleted

Meanwhile at the lefty watering hole: PROOF! People don't kill people, guns do!
But of course there was that unfortunate driving on the sidewalk thingie in Toronto.
And there's the knife-sticky-in-the-body thingie going on and various other ways that people end the lives of other people - but not in lefty-land. Only guns kill people. In lefty-land, you can't possibly kill with out a fire arm.
Proof! Forever and ever and ever!
Go ahead - just try to have a 'conversation' with that sort of mind.

Marillyn Lock-Heed

,,,spoken like a gun apologist Scotto,,,

Account Deleted

"Gun apologist"? There's a new one. Guns are inanimate objects. I wasn't aware they needed to have some one apologise for them.
Are you defending the article, Marilyn? Or did you just stop by to throw rocks?

George Rebane

ScottO 1237pm - I believe Ms Lock used 'apologist' in the sense of a dissertation defending a given proposition. We went around this little bit of semantics under the par force post.

Account Deleted

Ah - well, my proposition was that the article in DK 'prooving' that you 'need' guns to kill people based on the fact that one individual chose not to kill any more people after he had his (father's?) gun taken away from him was patently absurd. People kill other humans on a daily basis using all manner of methods.
Seems like the lefties only care about human life when it fits their political needs.
How about we look at the reasons why some people are violent and maybe do something about it?
Nah - let's just rant about scary guns and let the death toll keep on going up.

Bill Tozer

Think Ms. Wilcox brought up Connecticut during the March on Townhall Dialogue.

Was is happening to little Connecticut? Their Senator was US Marine reserve sgt. (served stateside only) that had been busted opening boasting in speeches he is a Vietnam vet. Never aplogized. Their governor O’Malloy is such a dufus that even his own party calls him stupid. And the former mayor of Bridgeport was sent to prison for six years for corruption only to come back after release to win his old job back as mayor....and now has a chance to win the Dem primary for Gov. Shades of Marion Barry.

Oh yeah the point:

Hartford, New Haven and Bridgeport are all rated on the Neighborhood Scout list of the 100 most dangerous cities in the United States. Bridgeport comes in at number 89, Hartford holds down the 46th spot while New Haven, the spot where Gov. Dannel Malloy announced his “second chance” initiative holds the state’s worst ranking at 37. To put those numbers in perspective, Compton, Calif., is ranked 33rd and Newark N.J. 31st.

One of the major factors in the killings is the drug trade and the street gangs that control it. In those areas of our cities where you don’t want to stay too long, the street gangs aggressively protect their territories. The funds to buy the guns and bullets protecting these territories come from the sales and distribution of illegal drugs.”


Update. Bridgeport now as the highest murder rate in the state.

Account Deleted

Bill at 2:58 - And that leads us around to the latest Scattershots (no pun intended) concerning society and morality.
Murder arises in this country mostly from: gang related turf wars, folks that are unable to resolve inter-relational disputes peacefully and nut cases wreaking havoc on society due to an inability to deal with the havoc inside their craniums.
Hogg-boy's walkouts have now killed more people than the NRA.
But the left goes with Hogg-boy.


re: Scotto@5:30PM

Speaking of Hogg (and courtesy of Hoggwatch.com)



SO 530pm

2.8 million NICS checks in March and most for semi-automatic rifles and pistols. Give Master Hogg a hand for beating DiFi, Hillary and Obama in the salesperson of the century for the National Shooting Sports Federation, the trade group for civilian firearms makers.

Just wondering, does anyone here have a Ghost Gunner mill they'd like to sell?

Account Deleted

The local ACE Hardware store in the same building with the Ridley's Market (think SPD circa 1960) just moved their ammo shelf over to the wall from where it was previously open to anyone waiting in line. I asked why the change and was told because they're going to start selling firearms. A Bi-Mart soon to be opening down the road is known for being as good on prices as the internet. Plenty of guns around here but strangely everyone feels quite safe. Sales at the nearest Dicks apparently is down markedly. Wonder why?
'Ghost Gunner Mill' - needs to be trade marked. 3D printers soon will only be sold to folks with a Fed firearm license.

George Rebane

ScottO 635pm - "only be sold to folks with a Fed firearm license"???? A ubiquitous piece of equipment like that which is changing the world of manufacturing, I don't think so. Please cite someone who really thinks that will happen.


re: GeorgeR@7:08PM

I expect that certain data files will end up being illegal for both the material removal and material adding machines. After all, they didn't make pencils illegal although it's perfectly possible to pick up a felony with the wrong drawing or string of text.

Account Deleted

That's the rub, George - the anti 2nd A folks are already trying to crack down on people having the ability to 'manufacture guns'. Uh, go to the hardware store and get some steel pipe. Ever heard of zip guns? No - I don't think it will ever happen, but couple a 3D printer's ability to spritz out a fire arm and the anti gun mania sweeping our nation and we have a collision of realities. As scenes suggested, maybe they will prohibit certain 'data files'. Good luck with that! Possibly force the makers of 3D printers to hard code a self-censoring logic to make the printing of a 'possible' fire arm out of the question? I'm being a bit facetious, but the left seem to have no limits to their insanity.

Account Deleted

A gentle reminder - I used to make fun of the notion of 'knife control' and 'assault knives' that could kill repeatedly without re-sharpening.
And wadda'ya know!
It came true!
So - I have cred here with this topic.
I'm not totally off base!

George Rebane

I love working in the middle of such a group of prescient experts ;-)

Account Deleted

It's not a happy sign of the times. I wish that a lot of what I think might come to pass would not.

Bill Tozer

STUDY: Most Americans Do Not Favor Companies That Cut Ties With NRA


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