Gun violence town hall in Nevada City (updated 7apr18)

George Rebane

[This is the transcript of my regular KVMR commentary broadcast on 4 April 2018.]

Today the Second Amendment and gun violence are on the minds of many people.  Both subjects have widely different meanings for Americans, and the usual conversations held on these topics more often than not find people talking past each other because they share no common facts, definitions of terms, knowledge of history, and usually debate only to promote totally different futures for America.  In short, neither their agendas nor narratives are compatible.  On 20 April there will be a town hall meeting in Nevada City to attempt a better understanding of all this that I’ll tell you about in a minute.

Since the Parkland shootings, the Left has again made gun control a national issue, seeing it as the most recent not-to-be-wasted perfect storm to flood the country with the next layer of gun control laws.  What distinguishes their current efforts from the past is that the cat is finally out of the bag – the Left’s goal is not just adopting what they call ‘common sense’ laws and regulations, but the total abrogation of civilian gun ownership.  And former Supreme Court Justice Stevenson openly declared the preferred method to be through the repeal of the Second Amendment.

What continues to fuel the debate in the media is the way that information on guns – their types, functioning, gun deaths, gun violence, (yes, these are different), ownership rates, applicable laws, the effect of various levels of controls, etc – how all this is disseminated.  Listening to the gun confiscation folks, you would think that there has been a dramatic increase in gun violence, however that is characterized.  Looking at the plain facts, gathered and published by outfits like Pew Research, FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports, Centers for Disease Control, and other reputable private and public agencies, the reality is quite different.

Here are some “stubborn facts” to consider when you next talk about gun violence and gun control –

• Violent crime is down and has been on the decline for decades.
• The principal public safety concerns with respect to guns are suicides and illegally owned handguns, not mass shootings.
• A small number of factors significantly increase the likelihood that a person will be a victim of a gun-related homicide.
• Gun-related murders are carried out by a predictable pool of people.
• Higher rates of gun ownership are not associated with higher rates of violent crime.
• There is no clear relationship between strict gun control legislation and homicide or violent crime rates.
• Legally owned firearms are used for lawful purposes much more often, about 450,000 times annually, than they are used to commit crimes or suicide.
• Concealed carry or CCW permit holders are not the problem, but they may be part of the solution. CCW permit holders are arguably the most law-abiding people in the country.  Our police, who are very law-abiding, still commit crimes at 6 to 10 times the rate that CCW holders do.

To put the loss of human life into some perspective, consider that insect bites kill more people than the criminal use of guns.  More people are stabbed to death each year than are shot with rifles.  Surprisingly, the London murder rate with knives is now higher than the gun murder rate in New York.  And each year medical mistakes kill over 20 times the number of people murdered with guns.  So, there is much more to know about gun violence than what is repeated on every-day media.  (more here)

In light of all this, a group of concerned progressives will gather in the Nevada City Council chambers on the evening of 20 April to hold a town hall in order to “find common ground for efforts that can be initiated right here in Nevada County to make us all safer.”  The meeting, moderated by Judge Tom Anderson, will be a discussion and not a debate.  It will feature a panel that includes Carla Wolfclaw, who wrote on school security measures after the Columbine massacre, and a number of locals to which I have been added to provide either some measure of balance or, perhaps, comic relief, not necessarily in that order.  More information will be available soon on local radio and in The Union.

My name is Rebane, and I also expand on this and related themes on Rebane’s Ruminations where the transcript of this commentary is posted with relevant links, and where such issues are debated extensively.  However, my views are not necessarily shared by KVMR.  Thank you for listening.

[6apr18 update]  Until something more formal appears in the media, I am posting below the draft "blurb", as received, from the organizers on the upcoming town hall.  Since the receipt, I have been informed by KVMR that they will do a live broadcast of the event.

Foothill Arts Resources & Media (The FARM) is a 501 C 3 Non-Profit entity.  Our mission is to provide professional assistance & occasional funding to local projects that would be of interest to our community, in addition to producing our own events. Our team is comprised of passionate individuals with long-term experience in activism, organizing and event planning, as well as strong independent media involvement.

Our current project is to produce a Town Hall Meeting on the topic of Guns; this will include gun safety, gun violence, interpretations of the Second Amendment to the Constitution, student input, judicial and law enforcement input, and an opportunity for knowledgeable panelists to share their thoughts, feelings & expertise. The goal is to bridge the gap, and rather than be divisive, to find areas where we, as a community, can find common ground, and begin to find workable solutions to this important, ongoing and highly charged topic.  This will be a forum in which the public can ask questions of the panelists. (These questions will be vetted by our team, and will include all points of view, as our goal is to be inclusive).

The meeting will be carried LIVE on NCTV and streamed over the internet on Friday, April 20th, 2018 at 6:30 P.M. and will be held in the Nevada City Council chambers at 317 Broad St. Nevada City, CA.

We are planning to work with KVMR to see if they, too, would be interested in carrying the event. We have received a “thumbs-up” from The Union, as well.

[7apr18 update]  I received the following press release entitled, 'Town Hall Notice - Guns a Community Dialogue' from Ms Patricia Smith of FARM.  It is posted as received.

Press Release:

Guns: A Community Dialog will be the topic of a public Town Hall Meeting to be held on Friday, April 20, from 6:30 - 8:30 pm in the Nevada City Hall Council Chambers, 317 Broad Street. 

The Town Hall is being produced by Foothills Arts Resources & Media (FARM) with partners NCTV and KVMR who will carry a LIVE broadcast of this event. (NCTV, Comcast Ch. 17 or Suddenlink Ch. 16; KVMR, 89.5 FM.) It will also be streamed over the internet at www.kvmr.org and nevadacountytv.org.

Superior Court Judge Thomas Anderson will moderate. The panel consists of Amanda Wilcox, Legislation & Policy Chair of the California Chapters of the Brady Campaign; Carla Holtzclaw, School Safety Trainer & Consultant, retired educator & former Chair of the Santa Clara County Behavioral Health Board; Dr. George Rebane, certified range safety officer, life member of the NRA, who has researched and written extensively on the Second Amendment; Morgan Margulies, a senior at Nevada Union High School and captain of the campus debate team; Jerod Johnson, a retired Grass Valley Police captain, gun safety expert and owner of The Range, and Michael Gomez, former Bureau Chief, California Dept. of Justice Commission on Peace Officer Standards & Training (POST).

Among the topics to be discussed will be school and public safety procedures, warning signs of mental health issues, gun proficiency & safety training, concerns of our youth, and Second Amendment rights.

The goal is to bridge the gap, and rather than be divisive, find areas where we, as a community, can reach common ground. Foremost is finding workable, local solutions to this important, ongoing and highly charged topic.

This will be an inter-active forum in which the public can ask questions of the panelists via written cards. All points of view will be included, however the questions will be vetted to eliminate duplication and remain within the time limitations of a live broadcast.  FARM is a 501 (c) 3, non-profit. Our mission is to provide professional assistance & occasional funding to local projects that would be of interest to our community, in addition to producing our own events.

Seating is limited: Info:530-268-5754 or see FARM's Facebook page, Foothill Arts, Resources and Media FARM where you can reserve a seat.

Comments

[Paul Emery]

George

Can you provide some links or documentation for this assertions about gun violence:

"To put the loss of human life into some perspective, consider that insect bites kill more people than the criminal use of guns."

[Paul Emery]

Here's some info I found to counter your claim that " that insect bites kill more people than the criminal use of guns"

Bee stings are the largest killer of humans in the U.S. directly caused by animals. An allergic reaction to the venom is bee’s kills 53 people per year. This number is increasing every year due to the aggressive African honey bee that is taking over in Texas.

The Black Widow and Brown Recluse spiders kill 6.5 people per year. They are usually young children that do not get medical attention right away.

Rattlesnakes carry venom that kill 5.5 people per year. Rattlesnake attacks are always defensive. Most rattlesnake related deaths are males between 17 and 27. Alcohol is usually involved which facilitates the venom. I picture a drunk kid on a camping trip trying to mess with the snake, then not seeking medical attention immediately.

Scorpion and centipedes are responsible for 1 death every two years on average. This is due to their remote habitat and inadequate medical care.

https://historylist.wordpress.com/2008/05/29/human-deaths-in-the-us-caused-by-animals/

[Don Bessee]

You might want to factor in the 3rd world ya po' ol' fakenewsman, you know like malaria, zika etc. but why start being real now?? ;-)

[jon smith]

Paul-
The only insect on your list is the bee. Mosquitos kill over a million people annually.

Also, I'm not sure how a rattlesnake "attack" would be considered defensive. But point taken, rattlesnakes don't attack.

[ArchieBunker]

Don, reality check, we are talking about our country’s regs. But why start understanding now? :-\

[Walt]

OK Car accidents kill more.. But why start hair splitting now.

[Don Bessee]

Oh I get it, its fine for the left to toss out gun death rates from around the world but for Gods sake don't put those numbers into perspective. ;-)

[Scenes]

Now here's a thought.

https://www.tmj4.com/news/national/village-board-bans-assault-weapons-in-deerfield-illinois

Maybe we could give the NC city council a shot at doing that, assuming they're not all in the pocket of the NRA.

[George Boardman]

Balance? Comic relief? You can provide both. I'm tempted to drive all the way to Nevada City to check this out.

[Walt]

Just about to post that Scenes,, what could possibly go wrong?
And what have LIBS said before? " OH NOoo.. Gun confiscation will never happen."
I see a few dead "collection" agents when that gets going.
So the next civil war starts in Ill.

[jon smith]

ArchieB- I thought I would never defend Bessee but GR uses examples from London, so Bessee's use of international stats is valid.

[Bill Tozer]

“Balance? Comic relief? You can provide both.”

https://www.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.217983685002343.55586.217926015008110/1290909021043132/?type=3&theater

[Walt]

And a revisit is appropriate.
https://esmemes.com/i/stops-say-goodbye-to-your-little-friend-overnme-gov-www-fu-and-yourguns-3427000

The tits up NC Scooper got plenty of millage out of it, and even caught Snopes with it's pants down.
Huhhh.... Now almost reality.

[Todd Juvinall]

The reason the left wants to ban guns is they supply personal protection from others. This makes it less necessary to rely on government and its agents thereby weakening the state. The left wants everyone in a highrise urban domicile instead of homeowners on little parcels of their own land. Just like you see in Shanghai now. They hate cars as well and that is why they are all about regulations and transit. People with their own vehicle are what we call an individual and not a leftwing sheeple.

[Paul Emery]

The context of George's post was US gun deaths not world wide stats so my numbers are relevant to the post.

[Bill Tozer]

But Punchy, are you relevant? Consensus says no.

[Gregory]

Paul, I'll go out a limb and say the stats GR was meaning to relate is insect stings killing more on average than mass shooting events, not "criminal uses of firearms" which begs for a tighter definition if I am wrong, More folk in the US are killed by lightning strikes than mass shooters, too.

A fear of going to school because of a shooting 3000 miles away is as irrational as a fear of being struck by lightning. Perhaps more so.

"AM I NEXT?" was a sign one very small child carried at one of the marches; I'd say that was akin to child abuse by third mom,dad or teacher who would have done better by not filling them with dred.

[Bill Tozer]

Agree with Gregory. Putting unreasonable fears in kids’ heads and heart is akin to child abuse. Same as putting confused kids on hormone therapy when 90% of the time they will change their minds again by age 18 according to the most authoritive studies. It’s all about the parents and what they feed into their children’s heads.

Well, no use trying to reason or convince one single person here since we all are talking past each other. School shootings down since the 90’s, mass shootings seen a recent uptick. It’s a waste of time when dealing with emotion. “Feelings, nothing but fellings”, as the old song goes. What can anyone do with “I feel apprehensive?” Nothing. Absolutely nothing will relieve their fears. Yes, you can hold their hands and tell them it will be alright, albeit they won’t hear a word you say. The noises in their heads and emotions drowns everything out.

“However, if someone like Renkl [NYT Editorialist] can be emotionally manipulated to view guns as “evil,” then seemingly no amount of reason or evidence will prove to sway their opinions, and it is this emotion over and against reason that the Leftmedia employs in its anti-gun crusade.
https://patriotpost.us/articles/55113-msm-peddles-more-fake-news-on-guns

With all the wasted link above said, I humbly recommend Dr Rebane remember these three words at the upcoming Town Hall Meeting in the Berzeekly of the Foothills:
https://www.facebook.com/PatriotPost/photos/a.82108390913.80726.51560645913/10155545992315914/?type=3&theater

[Barry Pruett]

For the first time, I joined the NRA. We live in scary times as the fascists are on the march.

[Scenes]

I do like the idea of the Gunapalooza in NC. I'll have to see if there's streaming version of it, although I expect that my mind's eye is pretty accurate. An endless stream of harridans explaining how they feel, a couple of shouted-down old grouchy white guys and their silly Constitution, public officials doing their best to not get anyone mad so they don't get in trouble. Aaaah, politics in These United States.

A reasonable set of graphics.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/811504/mass-shooting-victims-in-the-united-states-by-fatalities-and-injuries/
https://www.statista.com/statistics/476101/worst-mass-shootings-in-the-us/
https://www.statista.com/statistics/476409/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-weapon-types-used/
https://www.statista.com/statistics/476456/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-shooter-s-race/

The race one is interesting in that things are never what you think. Whites are underrepresented (regardless of what MSM tells you) and most interestingly, Asians are overrepresented. Go figure. Naturally, it's nearly 100% men, perhaps estrogen patches are in everyone's future.

The guy in Las Vegas really throws the numbers off a bit. You probably shouldn't set public policy from a single event, but then look at 9/11. If you look at total injuries, we probably should make owning a butt-load of AR15s, airliners, and ammonium nitrate illegal.

[jon smith]

Todd 6:53-
"The reason the left wants to ban guns is they supply personal protection from others. . ."

Straight from the Jade Helm playbook. Jeez you are so easily manipulated.

[Todd Juvinall]

jon/linda
Not at all. Totally of my own and influenced only by Sargent York.

[Account Deleted]

Gregory at 2:50 - "Am I next?" Is the perfect reaction lefties have to tragic events.
I remember Tom Sullivan commenting on peoples' fear of flying after 9/11. "I'd get on the next plane."
Boy - did he catch an earful for that. But he was absolutely correct. Being a numbers guy, he knew how reality operates.
George has got a tough row to hoe at this meeting. Trying to calm panicked people down with reason and facts is never easy. The fact that he won't be as upset and emotional will 'prove' to the lefties that he doesn't care about dead children.
And there will be the crowd that simply wants to stick it to the NRA and the gun owners. That's their solution even when they know it won't do any good in reducing gun crime.

[George Rebane]

"The most deadly animal in the world is the mosquito. It might seem impossible that something so miniscule can kill so many people, but it's true. According to the World Health Organization, mosquito bites result in the deaths of more than 1 million people every year."
http://www.who.int/whr/1996/media_centre/executive_summary1/en/index9.html

[Todd Juvinall]

And that rests on the backs of Rachel Carson and her acolytes that got DDT banned.

[George Rebane]

Scaring children with fake or minuscule probability dangers has been the Left's forte for years. With today's 'Am I next?' child demonstrators, do they also provide PTSD counselors for the kids after the march is over?

[Robert Cross]

Todd: "influenced only by Sargent York." If you were/are so influenced by York why didn't you enlist in the marines or army and go fight in Vietnam? You are a chicken hawk, Todd... more than willing to sent other people to do your killing for you but when it comes down to it all you do is talk about what a great patriot you are... just like trumpski.....#sad

Stating that mosquitos kill more people than guns as an excuse to ignore the massive gun violence in America is moronic at best. Playing down gun violence as some minuscule event in the sands time totally ignores the problem in the name of political expediency.

Barry: Yes the fascists are on the move and you apparently just joined them.

[Bill Tozer]

Oh George, oh Dr. Rebane.........Dr. Rebane!.......
Gotta agree with Bobbie on this one. Not about Todd or the fact that Barry (and I and others here) just joined the NRA for the first time or rejoined for the first time in decades. No, just the middle part about mosquitos. It’s a non starter. So is reciting that 9 or 11 teens die each day texting while driving, depending on the what source you read. Total waste of time. Neither is trying to educate folks in Nevada City about the difference between a assault weapon and a civilian rifle, gun, or shotgun. Or what semi-automotic sidearm is or passionate words about rights, Constitutional rights that is. Waste of time.

If I may be so bold, Dr. Rebane, I suggest you remain long faced, refrain from cracking a smile, and remain humorless and stoic. Any and every slightest hint of a smile will have them screaming that you are laughing at murdered children. “Tell your stupid stats and definition of assault rifles is to the parents of the dead children!” No humor, no smiling at absurdity. My advise. It will be a tough humorless crowd with their minds made up in advance. You know, the anti-gun no borders crowd.

This is exactly what you are up against.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k0xhiDeLUPs

[Gregory]

GR 808am

I think using worldwide mosquito-borne disease deaths pulls the argument into the weeds.

If a child told me they were scared of going to school because of shootings I'd focus on more concrete examples in their experiences... like lightning strikes and how I know they can kill people but it happens so rarely I've never known anyone who died from one, and I expect they never will, either.

Btw... where was that April 20 moot announced?

[Michael R. Kesti]

I'm not finding any info concerning a town hall meeting on April 20. Can somebody help me out, please?

[Account Deleted]

from one of the panicked sheep at 12:01 - "Stating that mosquitos kill more people than guns as an excuse to ignore the massive gun violence in America is moronic at best. Playing down gun violence as some minuscule event in the sands time totally ignores the problem in the name of political expediency."
No one is 'ignoring' gun violence. A classic straw man argument for sure. The idea is to put reality up front so that laws and public policy can be formulated based on logic and facts. But logic and facts won't get rid of the NRA and 'scary-looking' guns, so the left uses name calling, hysteria and fear mongering as their main tool.
We already know how to protect children in school. It's been used in public and private schools for decades. And it works. I'm truly sorry that law enforcement saw fit to allow a highly damaged individual walk around freely in society and then stand around until the monster ran the body count up high enough to start the hysteria machine into gear.

[Gregory]

"massive gun violence", Bobby?

People are worried about guns jumping into the hands of murderers and forcing them to pull the trigger, not suicides, so, to begin with, stop using "gun violence" numbers including suicides. I'm not worried about me picking up a gun and killing me, so don't pretend to want me to not have a gun because you care sooooo much about that.

[George Rebane]

Well, it's clear what drew the most attention from my commentary. That "non-starter" has also beguiled people at outfits like Heritage and Reason. It's not an argument for diminishing the massacres, only putting them into one of many perspectives that serve.

Of course, the rabid Left is quick to accuse anyone who doesn't share their hysteria-du-jour as then being a proponent of whatever they oppose. As I mention above (in so many words), these people suffer from a very dissonant ontology.

[Gregory]

SO 114pm

I find the irony of the SD shooting truly heartbreaking. First, it is noted (by Obama's Ed Secy Arne Duncan and others) that there's a school to prison pipeline and they decided they'd break it. Fair enough... if kids are being unfairly denied opportunity because of a treadmill they really don't want to be caught in... by all means, break the cycle.

But they didn't recognize that there are young people who keep making the choices to threaten others, and the crack this one fell into was a wide open chasm. But he kept getting 2nd, 3rd, 4th... 37th, 38th, 39th chances. He buys a gun, legally with his spotless criminal record and then the Bobby Crosses of the country scream about the NRA being culpable when he was free to slaughter others with it.

Bobby, does the NRA spend four times the money Planned Parenthood does on congressional elections... or is it the other way around?

[Todd Juvinall]

Robert Cross | 05 April 2018 at 12:01 PM
Don't care what you think or say BoobieC. You are simply no different than your pals Clinton and Obama (both never served either). Hey, Clinton was in Moscow during Vietnam while their weapons were killing our military. My guess is you are all for that. Anyway, I bet your life is one of great disappointment and sadness. Mine is wonderful. You libs are all the same. Oh and your other hero, Bernie Sanders had his honeymoon in Moscoe as well. Were you there with him?

[Todd Juvinall]

Robert Cross | 05 April 2018 at 12:01 PM
Oh hey, I also checked the voter rolls and you are not on them. How come? Are you on welfare?

[Gregory]

TJ 218pm

I continue to suspect Bobby Cross is one and the same with the former mandersonation.

[Bill Tozer]

If the Fat Ugly FUE shows up at the Townhall, show him this stat. Knowledge is good and informative.

https://www.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.217983685002343.55586.217926015008110/1291518880982146/?type=3&theater

[Gregory]

George, anyone...

Information on the moot of 20 April, please. Even Scoopy is ignorant of it.

[George Rebane]

Administrivia - For more info on the town hall, please see the 6apr18 update.

[Patricia Smith]

I am posting this at Dr. Rebane's request. I have been boycotting this site because no matter how long I go between visits, it's always the same people calling each other names. I really enjoying my conersations with George because although we differ greatly on most issues, we never raise our voices or degrade the conversation by insulting each other. You should try it!

That being said, our hope for the Town Hall is for the opposite of the "conversation" that is happening on this blog. No one is offering any solutions as usual, you are only talking past each other and deflecting points that you can't defend. I mean really, what does the number of people who die from insect bites have to do with THIS issue? That's another discussion for another time. Try to stay on topic.

Our hope for the Town Hall is to find some proactive solutions that are achievable in NC to protect everyone (as much as that is possible). Most issues are beyond the scope of local control so it is nonproductive to discuss banning weapons, etc. What we can discuss are ideas like requiring training to buy a gun in NC (the NRA should applaud this idea as their affiliates would be the most likely to offer the training), safety drills at schools, better mental health screenings, a central call center to report people displaying dangerous behaviors.

The Town Hall is about bringing together people from as many different backgrounds as possible to discuss this issue. The panel was chosen carefully to eliminate "hotheads" on either side so a rational discussion can ensue. Each panelist is an expert in their respective categories which is why Dr. Rebane was one of the first people invited to be part of the program. This issue isn't going away so we should try to find some reasonable solutions together. You can participate or sit on the sidelines. Your choice! But calling each other names isn't going to accomplish anything.

[Todd Juvinall]

I agree it is important to have a pleasant conversation while being stabbed in the back.

[Walt]

OK Ms. Smith,, just what would be some of those "reasonable" solutions? Can you tell me why my requirement to register my weapon with the state is a "reasonable" measure? Do explain how that will stop gun violence. It only value is where to look when confiscations begin. (which of course Leftists claim will "never happen"... yet actually has.)

[jon smith]

Walt, gun registration is a reasonable process in my book, and if you think registration and background checks are not reasonable, then we'll simply agree to disagree. My guns, car, boat, dog, and bicycle are registered and the jackbooted thugs roping down from black helicopters have yet to materialize. I read about that in a comic book once, but I'm not prone to directing my life through an endless series of decreasingly probable scenarios.

We were just talking about toning down the fear of near non-existent threats, yet you choose to immerse yourself in that world. The irony is not lost.

Now, tell me what what you think are "reasonable measures.".

[Walt]

Wasn't talking to you "jon". Since you had to butt in,, do explain the "reasonable" part.
Cars and boats are taxed.. Right? You don't register them if you don't use them.. Right? You don't get taxed on them just because they sit and rust away in the back corner of the property.

Ca. is really doing all it can as far as gun go... Right? Is that why the LIBS in Sac. made gun theft a misdemeanor? It WAS a felony to rip off ANY firearm. The use of a firearm in the commission of a crime was an automatic three years.. LIBS got rid of that too.

Your side has been on a roll to decriminalize crime.. Yet who is the target? the honest citizen..

[George Rebane]

Registration. The command and control types want everything that is regulated to be registered, and everything that is registered to be regulated. The progressives take this as a given, or more precisely as an axiomatic feature of their kind of governance which they seek to impose on everyone. (An axiom is a statement of truth that is taken at face value, itself needing no further proof. All systems of logical reasoning start with a set of axioms from which other truth statements or theorems are derived.) One of the many reasons we cannot profitably talk with progressives is that our respective sets of axioms differ greatly. And that is why we are beyond the tipping point toward a Great Divide, we really belong in two different countries.

One of Chairman (and world's greatest killer) Mao's most insightful observations was that 'All power grows out of the barrel of a gun.' And the astute reader (along with our Founders) knows that the pivotal word in Mao's statement is 'All'. Therefore, you want guns ONLY in the hands of those whom you trust to exercise all power.

Finally, registration and background checks are two distinct (orthogonal) factors connected to the purchase, ownership, and use of guns. One can be the proponent of either one without supporting the other. That shouldn't be too hard to understand.

[Walt]

"jon" says "the jackbooted thugs roping down from black helicopters have yet to materialize. I read about that in a comic book once, but I'm not prone to directing my life through an endless series of decreasingly probable scenarios."

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2018/03/gun_confiscation_begins_in_illinois.html

[Walt]

To the Smiths!
http://www.breitbart.com/california/2018/04/04/gun-control-youtube-shooter-used-registered-handgun-visited-range-targeting-innocents/

According to your beliefs,this should have never happened.
So what went wrong? LIB background checks, LIB gun test, LIB gun safety test, LIB waiting period. She passed them all. She even went to the gun range!
Maybe her voting record should have been looked over? It's about the only thing not required to be scrutinized.

Our Ca. Leftists have gone nowhere near this. Nope, not a peep.

[Gregory]

Key to an effective registration scheme are penalties for possessing an unregistered gun. What are those penalties in California?

Are there different penalties for people eligible to own guns, and felons or others not eligible under the law to own a gun?

By the way, Patricia Smith, you wrote in The Union on March 6th,

"That an 18 year old can purchase these weapons is totally insane. It is time to ban every assault-style weapon and to admit these guns were only designed for combat situations.

It is simply a false assertion that AR-15's and semi-automatic weapons in general are protected under the Second Amendment. Four different Court of Appeals have upheld that it is constitutional to ban these weapons and the Supreme Court has refused to review these cases thus allowing the bans to stand. Even the conservative icon Justice Antonin Scalia stated that the right to own firearms "is not unlimited."

FYI, most handguns sold are semi-automatic actions. Maybe half of the privately owned weapons in the country are semi-automatic, and every single one has a 'cyclic' rate of fire equivalent to an old standard police revolver.

[Gregory]

Key to an effective registration scheme are penalties for possessing an unregistered gun. What are those penalties in California?

Are there different penalties for people eligible to own guns, and felons or others not eligible under the law to own a gun?

By the way, Patricia Smith, you wrote in The Union on March 6th,

"That an 18 year old can purchase these weapons is totally insane. It is time to ban every assault-style weapon and to admit these guns were only designed for combat situations.

It is simply a false assertion that AR-15's and semi-automatic weapons in general are protected under the Second Amendment. Four different Court of Appeals have upheld that it is constitutional to ban these weapons and the Supreme Court has refused to review these cases thus allowing the bans to stand. Even the conservative icon Justice Antonin Scalia stated that the right to own firearms "is not unlimited."

FYI, most handguns sold are semi-automatic actions. Maybe half of the privately owned weapons in the country are semi-automatic, and every single one has a 'cyclic' rate of fire equivalent to an old standard police revolver.

[Walt]

Now THIS would never be allowed here. Yet makes PERFECT sense.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/04/06/georgia-sheriffs-concealed-carry-sign-goes-viral.html

"“Our citizens have concealed weapons,” the welcome sign reads in part. “If you kill someone, we might kill you back.
We have ONE jail and 356 cemeteries.Enjoy your stay!”

Yes, common sense approach.

[Bill Tozer]

I have been stuck on Gregory’s comment about “Am I next?” since he brought that little girl’s sign up. Guess that is what the townhall will be about.....trying to comfort the anxious.

With the “Am I next?” fear and upcoming Townhall in mind, I recall a story that at the time was as shocking and insidious as the recent Parkland High School mass shooting and rocked the nation almost as much. The story of a woman who drowned her 4 or 5 kids in the bathtub, some fighting for their lives. Long story short is in the aftermath of the unspeakable evil deed, a local Sac TV station on its evening broadcast had a segment advising parents on how to talk to their children and what to say to their children to allieve their fears that Mommie and Daddy were not going to drown them too. Am I next?

Despite Patricia’s plea for civility, she would be amiss to remain ignorant of the fact how those, like her, who voted yes on W have been singled out and savaged personally here. It’s the thought that counts. Why can’t we all get along? Oh, Plan B for the piglet news hoggs is to storm and flood and overwhelm future Townhall meetings, FYI. They will be heard!.....to the exclusion of everybody and everything else.

Here is short video making the rounds. He speaks for me...no trigger warnings necessary.

http://truthfeednews.com/this-mans-amazing-speech-just-put-law-abiding-citizens-front-and-center-on-gun-debate/

[jon smith]

Walt 10:33-
You perfectly highlight my point about wrapping yourself in a fear-driven lifestyle, sans any intelligent assessment of actual risk. Like you, I can google just about anything and find an obscure or isolated event and translate that into my expectations of FEAR. I don't fear my kids getting shot at school anymore than I fear sky troopers dropping onto my roof to get my guns. I'm sorry you tremble so. Have another Xanax.

[Gregory]

Patricia Smith wrote the following words to end her March 6th Other Voices column:

To those who say they need semi-automatic weapons for home defense, the numbers belie you. Only a handful of home defense situations using semi-automatic weapons have been documented although there are millions of these guns in circulation.

Every right has limitations. You can drive a car as long as you follow the rules, but driving rights can be restricted or rescinded for any number of reasons.

I propose we use the money that would be needed to arm and train teachers for a buy-back program and then crack down on those who continue to illegally sell or possess prohibited weapons. It won't completely solve the problem, but it's a start.
https://www.theunion.com/opinion/columns/patricia-smith-second-amendment-rights-are-limited/

If that's the start, Ms. Smith, what is the end in your mind? The start was the 1934 National Firearms Act, a "common-sense reaction" of its day to the slaughter on St. Valentine's Day in 1929 of seven Irish bootleggers, by machine gun and sawed-off wielding Italian mobsters vying for control of the illegal alcohol trade in Chicago, an unintended side effect of Prohibition.

[Gregory]

Patricia Smith wrote the following words to end her March 6th Other Voices column:

To those who say they need semi-automatic weapons for home defense, the numbers belie you. Only a handful of home defense situations using semi-automatic weapons have been documented although there are millions of these guns in circulation.

Every right has limitations. You can drive a car as long as you follow the rules, but driving rights can be restricted or rescinded for any number of reasons.

I propose we use the money that would be needed to arm and train teachers for a buy-back program and then crack down on those who continue to illegally sell or possess prohibited weapons. It won't completely solve the problem, but it's a start.
https://www.theunion.com/opinion/columns/patricia-smith-second-amendment-rights-are-limited/

If that's the start, Ms. Smith, what is the end in your mind? The start was the 1934 National Firearms Act, a "common-sense reaction" of its day to the slaughter on St. Valentine's Day in 1929 of seven Irish bootleggers, by machine gun and sawed-off wielding Italian mobsters vying for control of the illegal alcohol trade in Chicago, an unintended side effect of Prohibition.

[scenes]

re: BillT @12:26 who brought this lovely video to my attention:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k0xhiDeLUPs

lol. I just love that kind of thing, it makes my day.

You know, there's a certain logic to the etymology of the word 'hysteria'.

[Walt]

"jon" doesn't read. It's not and "obscure event".
Happen to notice the date? Kinda shoots your stance full of holes.

[Walt]

This just in,,
http://rense.com/general11/guncon.htm

22 hours ago,
https://noqreport.com/2018/04/05/leftists-demanding-gun-confiscation-short-list-updated-march-2018/

http://aegisacademy.com/gun-confiscation/

Feel a little out gunned "jon"?

Let me know when the cops charge you with a felony for lack of registration for the old boat rotting in your yard.

[Account Deleted]

Wow - welcome back, Patricia.
"...we never raise our voices or degrade the conversation by insulting each other. You should try it!"
Then she continues with -
"No one is offering any solutions as usual,..."
Factually untrue Patricia, but since you admit you have been 'boycotting' this blog for some time how can you truthfully make that claim?
"...you are only talking past each other and deflecting points that you can't defend."
Please list all or some of the points "that I can't defend".
"I mean really, what does the number of people who die from insect bites have to do with THIS issue?"
That comparison was explained - if you still don't understand and ask politely - it will be re-explained.
"Most issues are beyond the scope of local control so it is nonproductive to discuss banning weapons, etc."
Yet I'll bet the scope of the town hall discussion WILL go beyond just Nevada County.
"What we can discuss are ideas like requiring training to buy a gun in NC."
Sure - the NRA has been doing that for years. Have you joined the NRA to help fund their efforts?
Of course that training will have no proven effect on the rate of gun murders, but if it puts more money into the NRA, I could support that.
Anyway - nice chatting with you, Patricia.
Cheerio!

[jon smith]

Walt thanks for whacko alt-right links, but I'm terrified to click any of those because TypePad might label me as an idiot for wasting my time. Then the gumshoes scrubbing my social profiles could declare me mentally unfit to own a weapon and kick in my door and come for my guns. And then ticket me for not registering the green sticker on my quad. Fear abides.

[Account Deleted]

Walt - you should have learned by now that jonnie boy is ignorant and proud of it. He is well within his rights to refuse to educate himself.

[scenes]

re: Jon Smith@12:05PM

Yup, pretty 'alt-right'. Here's a few that his main link pointed to (it's basically a list). I can't say that I'm ever surprised by peoples' lack of intellectual curiosity.

https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2018/03/repeal-the-second-amendment-idiots.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/27/opinion/john-paul-stevens-repeal-second-amendment.html
https://www.vox.com/2015/10/5/9454161/gun-violence-solution
http://www.naacp.org/latest/opinion-gun-safety-freedom/
https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/opinion/guest-column/2018/02/16/lets-repeal-second-amendment/345365002/
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/16/opinion/repeat-repeal-second-amendment.html
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/02/22/want-to-end-gun-violence-mr-president-get-rid-of-guns.html
https://splinternews.com/ban-guns-1820487148
https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2017/11/10/hand-over-your-weapons/6IxJLanMKGak7RvCLipwbN/story.html
https://www.redhawksonline.com/2017/11/13/las-vegas-shooting-response-keep-or-eliminate-guns/
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/06/opinion/second-amendment-cancer

etc.

To tell you the truth, I'd be surprised as all get-out if you knew what an alt-right philosophy consisted of, and I doubt that Walt would buy into all of it. It's all still in a state of flux, but makes a good epithet.

Patricia: ""No one is offering any solutions as usual,..."

At this point, my solution is to not compromise in any way at all. It's a great simplifier as a philosophy. Come up with a good enough case and we'll talk.

[jon smith]

scenes-
I appreciate your willingness to express your "solution." It is as valid as any other point of view.

[Gregory]

For the record, will the City Hall meeting room on the evening of April 20th be a pretend Gun Free Zone, with the honor system being relied upon, or will there be metal detectors for the occasion?

[Walt]

Still,, no "common sense" out of the Left on the subject.
Just personal attacks. I give facts about what is happening right now. "jon" deems,, "obscure".

AGAIN!!!! Just what is your LIB "common sense" gun regs?
That's in simple, King's English.
No,, not going back to cap and ball tech.
The 2ND Amend. has jack squat to do with hunting.(even a Proggy should know that by now)
Civilians have always used "guns of war". That's also a fact.

LIBs have used dirty, underhanded, and ILLEGAL ways to attack the 2ND. I give you "Fast and Furious" under the criminal Eric Holder.
Giving guns to the MEX cartels, using American gun dealers to do so. All in an attempt to blame them for illegal gun sales TO those vary MEX cartels.
Yup that did't work out as planned.

Again.. LIBS,, just what are those common sense laws you dream of?

[Scenes]

Re Gregory@12:40

I expect it's illegal for anyone without a ccw.

Re Walt

Looking for a proposal that isn't either confiscation or based on looks? Lol. Dream on.

[Walt]

Scenes,,, well,,,,,, YA!!! LIBS don't even want guns to hit what they are aimed at. One more thing they could prosecute someone for.

Maybe "jon" can get behind this one.
https://nypost.com/2018/04/04/elderly-man-arrested-for-murder-after-killing-home-intruder/

He used a screwdriver to defend himself!
Yup, a little obscure....(just for "jon")

[scenes]

re: Walt@1:08PM

In the spirit of crossing the aisle, I'll think of a new law.

Felons (well, most felons, I think there are exceptions) aren't allowed to own guns. Correct?

On everyone's drivers license or California ID, there's a big ol' checkbox for felon yes/no. If you want to buy a gun, you typically show some sort of ID, and let's say that private sales require glancing at the ID for that checkbox. You can argue for a tattoo, but felonies can get expunged.

[Gregory]

Scenes 100pm, of course it would be illegal without a CCW to carry concealed. But no one would know if a non-ccw holder was carrying concealed without screenings including a metal detector, or if a CCW holder was carrying despite a sign saying no weapons past this point.

There might even be a section of the laws in California governing legal carrying that would forbid its exercise in a public building during a public meeting. Is there?

George R, please, if this thing happens, dispense with the "par force" argument entirely. It doesn't work and no one wants to hear it. The standard in Heller is 'in common use'. Meaning if civilians have and use 160 million of the semiautomatic guns now (including rifles and handguns, all calibers, centerfire and rimfire), they should be expected to keep them.

[Walt]

As for felons, the ONLY state I know of that allows felons a weapon is Alaska. With provisions.

I will do ya' one better. ALL gun laws will be written by the FEDS.
Take the states out of it.
Our driver's license is good in all 50(57 for Obama worshipers)states. The same should apply for weapons.

Ca. thinks it writes the laws for all the other states. Time to straiten out Sac.

[scenes]

as a side note, I just thought of a fun presentation for Gunapalooza 2018.

A quick, 5-10 minute, presentation on the whole industry of 80% lowers, ghost guns, and all that.

Finish (so to speak) up with this

https://www.amazon.com/Ghost-Gunner-Micro-CNC-Machine/dp/B0742MQ93S

That should freak everyone out no end.

[scenes]

"There might even be a section of the laws in California governing legal carrying that would forbid its exercise in a public building during a public meeting. Is there?"

Exactly. I believe that a CCW is called out, which is what I was getting at, I should have been more clear. I'm not certain though.

[Gregory]

scenes, not only are felons not allowed to possess guns, they're also protected by the 5th Amendment against violations of registration requirements. This is as it should be, as to put them in jail for having an unregistered gun would be putting them in jail for not turning themselves in. That old "self-incrimination" thing. The 5th Amendment.

[scenes]

Hmmmm. How about a code on your driver's license or California ID (you know, those things that people can't be troubled to get to vote) for the following

https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/firearms/forms/prohibcatmisd.pdf

For all I know, a crazy person code might give you more street cred when you get carded at the bar.

[scenes]

Gregory: "they're also protected by the 5th Amendment against violations of registration requirements. "

That is really interesting. I had never ever heard of that.

[Walt]

Another one today for gun grabber "jon"
https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/2018/04/06/under-states-new-gun-law-tpd-seeks-seize-mans-guns/493898002/
Add more mud to that slippery slope.

[Walt]

Did you have a drink today? Yes you say? Your under arrest for the possibility that you would get in your car and cause an accident that may kill someone.

[Gregory]

scenes 145pm

Yes, support drops off when it is made clear that violating the registration provision is only actionable if the unregistered gun is owned by a good guy who, for one reason or another chose not to register it.

I loved the double-talk of one registration scheme in California that was run by California voters maybe 24 years ago. The advertisements told everyone that "punks caught with an unregistered gun" would get certain jail punishment, but didn't make clear that the "punks" in question were punks that didn't have a record of violent crimes. They'd just get the punishment for felons and other people who could not legally possess a gun in the first place.

[Walt]

This news should give "jon" as much pleasure as sex.(maybe more)
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/04/06/massachusetts-ban-on-assault-weapons-doesnt-violate-2nd-amendment-judge-rules.html
Just "obscure"... right?

[Bill Tozer]

I was going to say that in CA if you are caught with a stolen gun, they write you a misdemeanor ticket and give ya a court date....in the gun is under $699.00 in value. Part of Moonbeam’s coming into compliance with the court orders about prison overcrowding. Same for dropping that one day off a sentence to make it 364 days in the pokey instead of a year. That was so illegals (and others) don’t get dinged with a conviction of a year sentence, which puts them in a more serious felony classification and red flag for deportion and.....round and round the mulberry bush, the monkey chased the weasle....

I was going to say looking at the proposals so far, that we best be building a hell of a lot more prisons.

I was going to say all that, but I won’t.

What I was going to say is I will just park my rear outside the doors of the Townhall Hullabaloo Gun Expo and peddle tins of Biker Bill’s Butthurt Cream & Smoothing Salve to those exiting the gathering.

[Scenes]

me: "Dunno what the fixation on AR15 pattern rifles is all about."
scotto: "Because they're probably the most common rifle sold in the US these days."

lol. If they weren't before, they sure are now.

It's interesting how those have taken hold given how many alternatives there are. It's like the IBM PC I guess, once you have numerous suppliers building interchangeable parts the market can shoot up in size. Problems in design get ironed out, prices go down. I'm surprised there aren't more patent issues, or at least ones that I've heard about.

In a sense, AR15 style is starting to take over the whole world of long guns. Looking at:

https://ruger.com/products/precisionRifle/models.html

I can see how smaller manufacturers may well build more guns of all types using AR15 parts where possible in order to save cost and go for the current aesthetic. It may well be that wooden furniture is just something for old farts going forward.

Anyhow, what I'm getting to is that the anti-gun people could stand to think in terms of something besides purely visual standards. Even thinking up laws on mechanical design is tough given how many ways there are to get kinetic energy downrange.

[jon smith]

As directed, moved to outside the box

You win Scott, I guess 10 rounds isn't restrictive enough for you - lets try 3 rounds. . . it worked on us duck hunters. To bust your bubble, the Florida shooter had a bag full of pre loaded clips. You conveniently "forgot" that part of my suggestion. If he had to thumb load between shootings it might have slowed things down just a teensy weensy bit and perhaps a few more kids would be walking around today to protest. But we wouldn't want that now, would we?

[Scenes]

re: Jon Smith

"To bust your bubble, the Florida shooter had a bag full of pre loaded clips. "

Is the implication here that a person is only allowed to own one magazine?

Here's a better place to come from. Take an existing firearm with an expert shooter (not world-class, just good) and see how many times he can hit a moving human-sized target in, say, a minute. It'll be like an EPA rating.

It might be surprising how little difference magazine size or mechanism makes. Handiness probably counts for more, which might explain why handguns are used 2:1 in mass shootings.

Here's another angle. Consider concealability. If the main point of danger is crazy people on psychotropics or gangstas getting to their prey, perhaps guns should merely be bigger. Have a minimum size. A country full of FN-FALs, M-14s, M1As, etc. (what are commonly called 'battle rifles') would fill the intent of the 2nd amendment pretty well.

[Account Deleted]

jonnie boy 6:12 - No, you're wrong again. That kid needed to be put into some kind of controlled environment long before he started shooting anyone. There was plenty for law enforcement to work with, if they'd bothered to work. 'We' didn't want anyone shot. You seem to be content with just some of them dead. What a guy!

[jon smith]

scenes, please speak to Walt about the difference between a fixed magazine and a removable clip. One you can drop on the floor and replace in a second with another, the other needs to be manually reloaded (yeah, I too have speed loaders for my .38, but you can't regulate everything). Either you are unaware of the difference or attempting to pretend they are the same.

[Walt]

Guess what "jon",, there is already a workaround for all AR platforms. Someone made a new stock that takes away that feared pistol grip, and adjustable rear stock. (a real pantie wetter for sure)
Unscrew the useless "flash hider" (they just look cool) and a 2 minute modification to the bayonet lug.(never ever seen one used down the range.)
I can put my real, honest to goodness magazine release button back in!
The weapon looks even scarier now! REAL futuristic.

Need one?
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=as_li_ss_tl?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=Thordsen+Customs+FRS-15+Enhanced+Stock+Kit&rh=i:aps,k:Thordsen+Customs+FRS-15+Enhanced+Stock+Kit&linkCode=sl2&tag=gndlink0b-20&linkId=f3ac15210cea677279e586d43b6032a2

And cheap shipping via USPS.

[Account Deleted]

And say - what happened to Patricia Smith and her 'polite' conversation?

Scenes - I'm thinking of the Ford flat head V-8 in the 30's and 40's. It actually wasn't the most powerful nor the cheapest but it was plentiful and it was dependable and handled pretty well. Bonny and Clyde and innumerable moonshiners as well as a lot of other rapscallions used them to escape the long arm of the law. Absolutely no one thought to ban the darn car.
If you're concerned with law breaking - go after the law breakers.
Well - duh!
But apparently this concept is too advanced for certain folk.

[Scenes]

re: Jon Smith

"
scenes, please speak to Walt about the difference between a fixed magazine and a removable clip."

Are you implying that I'm confused? lol.

AR15s have magazines. Garands have clips. I was gently correcting you at 6:29pm.

[Bill Tozer]

“If he had to thumb load between shootings it might have slowed things down just a teensy weensy bit and perhaps a few more kids would be walking around today to protest. But we wouldn't want that now, would we?”

And if the deputy specifically assigned to that school in advance in anticipation of such an event had puttered his golf cart over to where the shots were coming from and actually pulled out his gun and went in....or if he did not direct arriving LE to a building safety away from the shots and told them to stay put and stay away from where the action was, perhaps it would not have slowed things down just a teensy weensy bit and perhaps a few more kids would be walking around today to protest. But we wouldn't want that now, would we?

And if bullfrogs could fly, they wouldn’t bump their rump on a log.

https://www.facebook.com/lastamericapatriots/photos/a.235087906641439.1073741826.235086849974878/1028841130599442/?type=3&theater

[jon smith]

Walt-so what. I don't give a rat's ass if your gun looks like an AR or a Red Rider BB gun. Scary up your gun as much as your wallet can afford. I bet you put 36" TA tires on your Datsun too. Shot placement is the rule. The guy on the receiving end won't know the difference.

[Scenes]

re: ScottO@6:42PM

Well, of course. I'm just trying to help JonS invent rules that make sense from a physics point of view rather than just picking stuff from mid-air. It always pains me to hear some of the firearms restrictions people cook up, if only just from their illogic.

re: Walt@6:38PM

I suppose people could always buy super safe worry-free firearms instead of black guns.

http://i50.tinypic.com/30075gz.jpg

Heck, they're even a lot cheaper.

[Walt]

"jon".. That little convertion set does nothing to change the function of said AR. But the requirement to register with Commiecrats in SAC is no longer there.
Better bitch to the statehouse on Mon. about that.

[Account Deleted]

Walt at 3:44 - "Assault weapons are considered to be military firearms, U.S. District Judge William Young said in his ruling, therefore disqualifying them from being included in a citizen’s right to “bear arms.”"
This is insanity. There is nothing in the 2nd A nor in the supporting statements from the authors of the 2nd A that backs this up. The judge pulled this out of his ass.
Anyone who thinks registration of all firearms won't lead to more of this kind of BS and then general confiscation is naive.

[Account Deleted]

scenes at 6:57 - oh yeah - I'm sure the high school kids would MUCH rather be shot dead with that gun. I know where you are going here. Function vs style or reputation.
But that gets into logic and reason.
Get with the program guys!
This is about pissing off the conservatives and scoring wins against the NRA.
Dead school kids are the lefts' favorite platform to stand on when trying to raise their own stature. They sure haven't got anything else to elevate their position.

[Patricia Smith]

Sorry I haven't responded, but I was in meetings all day. At any rate, I've said my piece, here and in the Union. It looks like the Town Hall will prompt a great discussion - and my opinion will remain solely my opinion. I have zero influence over where the panelists take the discussion, but I hope it will provide a great opportunity for all of us to learn something knowing full well that some people will never give an inch (on both sides).

[Scenes]

re: Scotto@7:18PM

"But that gets into logic and reason. "

No need for that, there's not a lot forthcoming. I admit that it's interesting to think about actually grading guns somehow by mayhem-producing ability, but the main point of attempting to build a logical base for a rule set is that it shows that there ain't none.

Given how much damage a person could do with 19th century firearms, it's pretty obvious that the real endgame is *always* complete confiscation of guns in the US...or as near as you can get. That's the place where the line is really drawn, not in these 'negotiations' that always scooch towards the real desired goal.

[Scenes]

hello Patricia.

From your letter to the editor:

"There is a vast difference in the damage inflicted by a handgun and a semi-automatic weapon."

You might want to rethink the sentence. What exactly are you getting at here?

[Scenes]

...and I wish I knew what this meant:

"To those who say they need semi-automatic weapons for home defense, the numbers belie you. Only a handful of home defense situations using semi-automatic weapons have been documented although there are millions of these guns in circulation."

[Bill Tozer]

We are still missing the crux of the problem after all these years. Y’all get suckered into looking at that beatitude red herring called “the gun” instead of the real culprit, aka, the bad guy shooter. Hint of him as a drunk driver. Who is at fault? Arrest who? His car of him?