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01 April 2018


Todd Juvinall

I watched that pompous ass Sherman from SoCal and I have to say I cannot stand him a bit. But he and the democrats know if the question is asked on the census about citizenship perhaps their district's population will shrink. I saw an article sometime back that DeLeon won his Senate seat with an 11% turnout. Most of the SoCal seats are like that. If all the R's would turn out and vote we could possibly make some headway.


I'd say that a combination of population replacement and reprogramming of the existing people can torture the Constitution into practically any form it wants. The original intentions mean less and less after just a couple of hundred years.

I admit that it shows we are in a period of flux when the Team Blue elite still feels the need to pretend that gun rights or borders mean anything at all. Given their current relationship to firearms, I can understand somewhat the need to abolish the things. After all, a city dweller's main exposure to guns is via the frisky minority poor, not hunting or shooting sports. The basic idea is that attempting to disarm everyone has a better result than arming everyone.

Also, I'd say that risk aversion has increased remarkably over time. A small family farmer in 1900 saw 100x the death and mayhem that a modern American does.

In any case, I can grasp the argument over firearms if you assume that the Constitution is a reflection of the people, and people change over time.

This border thing, though. Ethnocentric behavior I can understand, flat not caring I can understand, but actively seeking the poor of the world to help eat the Little Red Hen's bread is a first. The West's descent into madness in that way is a mystery and probably a first for that type of mass movement. Perhaps it's happened before, but I'd likely have to research extinct civilizations for prior examples.


"Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons."

I am wondering what part of the original intent of the Constitution, acknowledging that it was amended by the 13th amendment, you guys don't understand?

Considering how bitterly you cling to the supposed original intent of the 2nd amendment I would think you would appreciate the original intent of Article 2.

The whole number of free persons....not free citizens...free persons.

This is how the census was counted when millions of immigrants came to the United States over the past 230 years (including Estonian immigrants), and how it was counted for the last 70 years.

Todd Juvinall

So a person here illegally is a free person? Sorry, they are not.


re: Frisch@8:31AM

While this has nothing to do with GeorgeR's post, it's an interesting topic.

My own thinking is that they should put the citizenship question on the census, and then the courts can fight out the representation issue. It may well be true that people in the country illegally can shift the membership in the House, and that it may well be legal to do so.

Given that there has been so little enforcement of the border and that people are more mobile, it's something of a new argument to have. What I find amusing is how we went from 'there's hardly enough illegal aliens to matter' to 'you want to disenfranchise 20 million people!?'

Hopefully you can see how some people might think that it's unfair to sneak in millions of people and then get more Congressional representation as a result. Dunno how it'll all turn out.


I will pass the news on to the homeless caps that Fricsh's
place is a great place to set up camp. He will welcome all.
Keep that front door unlocked as well. You never know who may need the bathroom.


Todd, no, the big Frisch in the small pond has it exactly correct... if someone is living at an address, they are to be counted.

It's a brilliant tactic to add the citizenship question, which will cause many illegals to decide they don't want to be counted no matter how much they are cajoled to cooperate.


Hang on, and this is not a thing I know much about, there is Evenwel v. Abbott

It sounds to me like counting illegal aliens for congressional districts is A-OK. I admit that I had never thought about it.

A quick peek at old census forms shows plenty of decades where people were expected to show naturalization status, so it's hard to get my knickers in a twist by adding it at this point.

Of course, all of this is swirling around the question of mass immigration as a political tool. I suppose there were similar arguments in the early 20th century, and the situation back then had a predictable result in terms of changes in immigration law.

Todd Juvinall

I think the point I agree with is they can be counted but not used as a "head" for the vote. I could live with that.


Frisch: Not even wrong.

Don't think Article I's reference to 'free persons' can be expanded to include those persons subject to incarceration and/or deportation upon apprehension, do you?



re: me@8:49AM

"While this has nothing to do with GeorgeR's post, it's an interesting topic."

My mistake. It had everything to do with the topic.

A welcome to Mr. Frisch, regardless of his bitter clinger jab. That's Mr. Bitter Clinger to you.

He'll probably storm off in a bit, but I really do appreciate a bonafide post. The leg humpin' Trump sex life bon mots from the local hippies get tiresome in their lack of both originality and humor, and it's nice to see something different.

Todd Juvinall

L has it right.


Ha...scenes...not storming off...just no reason to even talk to the people who populate this site...I just wanted to remind George of where the f*ck he came from. BTW George, were you counted in the 1950 census?

Todd Juvinall

It is good to see Frisch here making a fool of himself again. Thanks/.

jon smith

25% tariff MAGA = Make American Growers Angry. All those farmers who supported the great negotiator are about to have a fire sale to get rid of inventory. Glad I don't have to buy anything built with steel though.

Account Deleted

Maybe Frisch can clarify - exactly who is saying they won't count people who identify as non-citizens? I thought the complaint from the left was that illegals would be hesitant to partake in the census if they had to be honest and truthful.
The feds had the same question on previous censuses, why is this an issue just now?


Nice try Mzzz. "jon"... I guess you missed the facts that tariffs on our goods have always been that high, if not more.

Our farmers are selling off property because food grown in other nations can be sold cheaper here. That's been going on long before Trump showed up.
(not that you would have a clue about that.)

Bill Tozer

“I just wanted to remind George of where the f*ck he came from.”

George came here as an illegal alien?

Some State Constitutions have the word “residents” in it, so that is why non-citizens can get school and suck off mama’s gobbernut’s teet. You are telling me that an illegal alien working for 10-12 bucks an hour with his little sweet squeeze at home with 2-3 kids ain’t on the dole to get by? But, that iain’t the point, is it?

The US Census question in question is “Are you a citizen?” Don’t see how that would affect legal aliens, green card holders, or any other type of legal residency. The question does not ask if are a legal or illegal resident. Don’t see it as an attack on the “immigrant community” in the least. Heck, legal or illegal, they can answer the Censes question without worried about ICE coming to pay a visit. They (as well as moi) can say whatever they want, makeup stuff, and even say their income is over $100,00 a year and they work in Reno as a giggolo, used car salesman, or corporate officer and live in in Western Nevada County without any verification...if they want to.

You would think this would be a nothingburger, but noooooo.


re: ScottO@11:22AM

You can strongly argue that SSNs are put onto a census form. The real value of the things, aside from handing out districts, is in their historical value. Uniquely identifying someone would be a heckuva lot easier.

God knows how many SSNs are forged by illegal aliens, but that's a separate issue I guess.

The political value? It wouldn't be so hard for the half dozen Republicans in California to buy some ad time that implies that the census takers will turn you in to La Migra. It would basically have the same result as actually changing the form and is no more immoral than the ads Team Blue runs convincing the hoi polloi of some upcoming Reich Wing crime.

re: Frisch@9:40AM

While you're handy, and if you could indulge me, I'd like to see what a non-bitter clinger would do to change gun ownership law. Obviously, the NFA shows that it's possible to apply limits in design to privately owned weapons (or at least require paperwork in the case of states which allow that paperwork). Seriously, I have yet to see a well-thought out set of technical restrictions to firearms that would make anti-gun people more comfortable. If you think that the lack of a pistol grip or reduction in magazine size actually makes a lick of difference, it would be great to see a justification. Otherwise, some other good idea would be interesting. Keep in mind that the Ft. Hood massacre was carried out with a small (very small) caliber handgun.

Lacking a set proposed set of rules that actually matches the physical reality of firearms construction, I can't help but believe that the desired end result will always be 100% confiscation.


Toes, it's an attack on the congressional delegations representing all those undocumented Democrats, and the electors chosen by the state.

jon smith

Huh??What have you been smoking?
LaMalfa just pulled in a few million in rice subsidies, Blue Diamond has a monopoly on the world's almond and pistachios exports, Paramount's real holdings are growing about 15% year yet their subsidies grow. Water for crops in California is among the most subsidized in the world. We are not exporting crops because other nations are growing almond, pistachios, and mandarin oranges cheaper than we do.

Barry Pruett

Steve: I have been doing a lot of research on my family history and recently noted that there were three citizenship questions on the 1920 census. I have not looked at the rest of them, but it appears that a citizenship question has been on the census before. If I remember correctly there have been only two where the citizenship question was not asked (1960 and 2010? I think). Further asking if someone is a citizen or not does not mean that non-citizens are here illegally. Answering no can also mean that they have a green card or other permit. I fail to see why we should not know how many citizens versus non-citizens are here. Also and because illegals cannot vote, why should they be counted for apportionment?

Bill Tozer

1) Iran once was the largest producer of pistachios in the world. Then they did the bad thing by taking over the US Embassy in Tehran and holding our diplomatic personnel as hostages. After than, CA farmers saw a big need to be fulfilled and...nature abhors a vacumn. Grow a great cash cow crop while flipping of the Great Supreme Ayatollah Khomeini, aka, the Ayatollah of Rokinrolla. Now we are number one. Embargo this, sucka.

2) Gregory, yes we all know that. Just saying answering a Censes question yeah or nay is no big deal...unless one wants not to be counted. They will try to find ya, drive out to the boonies to hunt ya down if you don’t respond to the questionnaire. I know. Easier to fill in the form and mail it back. Think I said I was a Pygmy Eskimo with Pacific Islander mix last time. Gotta hide my half white priviledge. Don’t want to be sent to White Privelge re-education class, even if it’s free. Yeah or nay, how easy is that.

Bill Tozer

They always have had the citizenship question on the random long form.

We all apples and cheeries to China. Comes back as apple juice or frozen juice, I reckon. My cheepo genetic brand juice jugs say product of China.

Bill Tozer

Make that “we sell apples and cherries to China.” Sin of omission.



re: BarryP

"Also and because illegals cannot vote, why should they be counted for apportionment?"

I believe that the wording is fairly clear in the Constitution. Article 1 Section 2 combined with the amendment used to free the slaves (and since then, rather misused for birthright citizenship...the devil is in the details as usual). ...plus at least one court case.

Another way to look at the voting issue, is that minors, felons, and people in comas are counted for apportionment. Oddly enough, Democrats always want to push down the voting age, give felons the vote, and help guide the hands of the unconscious on their mail-in ballot.

It's an odd situation with the illegal aliens, but I doubt it was even thought of when the founding documents got penned. Some sort of amendment getting rid of birthright citizenship and illegal alien representation in Congress probably should be brought up, but it's so darned hard to get traction on that kind of thing.

George Rebane

Administrivia - The new post 'Our Constitution - capricious or a constant?' invites the continuation which now has become a topic of its own. Thank you.


Mzz. "jon".. So you found a "few"
Where do our fruits and veggies come from? (hint..not here)
Look at the can you buy. Product of just "where"?
Same in the produce isle.

Our rice, wheat and grains are the big export.
OIL is our NEW export. LIBS are still trying to kill coal exports.
( so we are to only export what Proggys approve of?)

So Doug L. gets subsidized. BFD.. So does a supposed LIB "non" profit we know of. Which is more productive with that OPM?

jon smith

Not sure where you buy your food, nor where you buy your "facts?"
The US exports far more agricultural product than it imports. Soybeans, feed, grain, horticulture products, and livestock products to name a "few" above and beyond your "boutique"almonds, pistachios, and mandarins.

Todd Juvinall

As a subset of the export market, we send out about 700 million dollars in pork. We have a 350 billion dollar deficit in trade with China. You can use your third-grade math can't you?


re: Jon Smith@2:44PM

"The US exports far more agricultural product than it imports."

I don't have a dog in that fight, so I thought I'd look it up.

"The report states that between 1990-92 and 2004-06, annual U.S. imports of fresh fruit and vegetables surged to $7.9 billion from $2.7 billion, with the share of total U.S. imports for agriculture rising to 13.3 percent from 11.5 percent. U.S. exports of fresh produce also rose, albeit less rapidly. As a result, the United States has increasingly become a net importer of fresh produce."

jon smith

We are very grateful for your stats from 2006. How about 2015?


re: Jon Smith.

Well, Walt said 'fruit and veggies' and 'rice, wheat and grains are the big export', so that's what I looked up.

Since you want to argue, I'll look around for a sec.


page 1

jon smith

Before his pivot, Walt claimed: "Our farmers are selling off property because food grown in other nations can be sold cheaper here." This is what my response was directed toward. I stand by my claim that the US exports more agricultural product than it imports. Walt can talk about the price of tea in China if that floats his boat.


re: JonSmith

It looks to me like Walt was pretty much correct in his 2:29PM

Looking back upstream, I would question whether farmers are shutting down operations due to foreign competition however. My bet would be that growth in food consumption is being largely met by overseas shipments. I can't say that relying on foreign sources for net food use is that great an idea.

My other bet is that US farmers are selling out to foreign interests. All that money parked offshore has to go somewhere, and it's pretty likely that the Chinese (or any other money sink) are going to spend the dosh on something of lasting value rather than push the trade balance closer to net zero.

Don Bessee

My other bet is that US farmers are selling out to foreign interests. All that money parked offshore has to go somewhere.

OH YA! Its one of the only capitol outflows from China that was not shut down to protect the yuan. ;-)

Bill Tozer

Interesting that Caesar Chavez was vehemently opposed to illegal aliens because they pushed down the wages and impeded the bargaining rights of citizens and legal farm workers. In fact, illegals were not allowed to join the National Farm Association, later known as the Untied Farm Workers.

Chavez marched against illegals working in American fields along with Walter Mondale (former VP) and MLK’s right hand man and very close personal friend, Ralph Abernathy. Both Chavez and Abernathy were 100% believers and practitioners of non violent protests.

So, we have the leader of the UFW representing the unions and American workers, Walter Mondale representing the Democrat Party and DNC, with Ralph Abernathy representing the Civil Rights Movement all opposing “wetbacks” undermining jobs, wages. and working conditions for Americans. My, things have changed.

BTW, “wetbacks” is the term Chavez used, not me.


jon smith

Trump is so smart that he put a tariff on pork of all things! That'll show those Mooslums. In fact, our largest pork exporter, Smithfield, is wholly owned by the Chinese and employs thousands of American workers in America. Who is going to be stiffed by Trump's wheeling and dealing trade acumen? Not so much the Chinese, but the same minimum wage uneducated Americans who voted to MAGA! Patriots to the end, they still believe Trump has their best interests in mind because Fox told them so.

Sort of off topic, but Walt, can you smell the manzanita smoke wafting off Cement Hill carrying with it the sweet scent of (made in America) wild pork shoulder butt? It's been 11 hours at 200f. Pulled pork tacos tonight!

Don Bessee

Not for you @ 150, the DOW was around 18k when you bailed out. I have not heard about a bunch of dividend stocks suspending them, has anyone? Boardman, you sound a lot like the guy who wants to make a new bet after every round of a championship fight.
As to the cars, S.K. gave us a cap of cars that had our safety standards, it went from 10 to 50k. They have poison pill local safety items that are just barriers. SO yes, a 5 fold increase in access is a good thing. That and the other balancing.
Since we are in the sand box how about this hot stinky one- Debbie Wasserman-Schultz's criminal paki tech staffer Awan, who looks a lot like a paki spy, was given a background check waiver by all 44 Dems who hired them!
Posted by: Don Bessee | 02 April 2018 at 04:22 PM



The amount of complaining going on in this little internet backwater about the unfairness of life is very amusing.

I have a friend who could not wait to retire so he could move to Florida to avoid income taxes. He tried all kinds of things, using a friend’s address in Oregon- didn’t work, using a friend’s address in Florida - didn’t work. So he loaded up the family and moved to Palm Beach- for at least 6 months a year.

That said, there are likely way too many immigrants in Florida for the WASPy types hereabouts.

I suggest South Dakota. Plenty of open spaces to shoot your guns, no state taxes and immigrant and colored population is low.

Just the facts man,




scenes @ 1:30

Nothing odd about it, it's who they are.

@ 3:39 Import food, not Mexicans. Leave them home to grow and eat it, we buy surplus.

Don Bessee

Thanks socialist, racist cab driver -

For the first time in 200 years, the number of homicides in London has surpassed the number in New York City, year to date.
With strict gun control in place, Londoners are simply being stabbed to death. The Times describes “a dramatic surge in knife crime.”

What they would have for you were it not for the 2nd!


Account Deleted

AB at 7:39 " no state taxes and immigrant and colored population is low."
No state taxes? What or who pays for the state govt?
Archie, no one here is complaining about the 'immigrant and colored population'.
Just the facts.


re: ArchieBunker

"I suggest South Dakota. Plenty of open spaces to shoot your guns, no state taxes and immigrant and colored population is low."

You might have a point there. The gun thing can be avoided since California restricts them purely on appearance. We've got some of the crummiest K-12 schools in the known universe with twice the per-capita state taxes (I assume that you meant no state *income* tax). As far as immigrant and colored population, I think it's more diverse than Nevada County, so there's nothing to be gained there.

Say...that's a funny thing. Nevada County is among the whitest places in the State of California. What in the heck are you doing here? Hie thee to a place with a proper amount of vibrant diversity. No doubt all the local hippies stick around because of the yummy coffee shops, utterly flabbergasting art scene, and the charming architecture and pine trees. It can't possibly be because they feel comfy living in a place absolutely inundated with people like themselves.

Bill Tozer

Dems using illegals to boost their numbers?


Bill Tozer

Don’t think we will ever control CA’s southern border without some help from the other side.


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