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17 November 2018

Comments

'''M'''

,,,,still pushing those Great Divide conspiracy theories???

Starting with Truman there have been six Democratic presidents and seven Republican presidents,,,but somehow the deep state progressives embedded themselves in the USDA and Interior Dept. and are pulling the strings.

You want something done then stop cutting taxes and send the Army,Guard,inmates,college kids, and homeless in to start '''raking''' the forests.
But that won't stop forest fires and it won't do a damn thing within city limits or on private property.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.dailycaller.com/2018/11/16/forest-service-harassment-oversight-hearing

fish

-Posted by: '''M''' | 17 November 2018 at 01:46 PM

You’re at your psychotic best when you just go all “stream of consciousness” on the keyboard dugsKKKi!

Russ

CA Gov. Jerry Brown Vetoed Bipartisan Wildfire Management Bill in 2016

Katy Grimes has the details:
https://canadafreepress.com/members/1/KatyGrimes/1000

Every governor has signed regretful legislation, or made a disastrous pardon he or she would like a chance to re-do. California’s whacky outgoing Democrat governor has spent the last eight years trying to convince the people of California that we are to blame for droughts, wildfires and “extreme weather,” and that climate change is an existential threat to the California way of life. Showing no regrets, Gov. Jerry Brown calls the people “freeloaders,” and “deniers,” and has mocked our “little green lawns.” Brown even spitefully signed legislation subjecting every man, woman and child to 50 gallons of water a day in the near future… despite the state’s 189,454 miles of rivers, and that large body of water California sits on.

Last year, as California residents were burned out of their towns, homes, neighborhoods, schools, hospitals and businesses, Gov. Jerry Brown was jetting around the world spouting climate change propaganda, and calling the fires California’s “new normal.” Gov. Brown had many chances to sincerely and realistically address California’s increasing wildfires since his election in 2011, but instead chose to play politics, placing his new friends at the United Nations over the people of California.

What many do not know, is that California Gov. Jerry Brown vetoed a bipartisan wildfire management bill in 2016, despite unanimous passage by the Legislature, 75-0 in the Assembly and 39-0 in the Senate. SB 1463 would have given local governments more say in fire-prevention efforts through the Public Utilities Commission proceeding making maps of fire hazard areas around utility lines. In a gross display of politics, this is especially pertinent given that Cal Fire and the state’s media are now blaming the largest utility in the state for the latest wildfires.

While hindsight is always 20-20, California was on fire when this bill made its way through the Legislature and on to Jerry Brown’s desk.

The 129 million dead trees throughout California’s state and national forests are now serving as matchsticks and kindling.

Read the rest of the story here: https://canadafreepress.com/members/1/KatyGrimes/1000

Bonnie McGuire

Thank you Russ.

B.Spiller

". . . decades of unnatural forest fuels build-ups is actually the dominant contributive cause of the devastations we have witnessed in recent years."

You are playing a shell game with the facts, Rebane. Stick with the facts and you might be worth reading. Using the tragedy of the Camp Fire as a Trojan Horse for your agenda is sickening. The first two days of the Camp Fire was largely on privately owned land, primarily SPI. There is no timber land in the Western states more actively managed than the Feather River drainage. Since the big fires of 2008 slicked off much of their property, SPI has been actively logging commercially valuable timber. It would more accurate to call this a brush fire than a forest fire. Manzanita, Ceonothus, tan oak, and buck brush are the predominant fuels (outside of structures). What would you do with this non commercially viable vegetation? If active, aggressive, and science-driven timber harvest falls outside your vision of "what THEY should do" please share it with us.

Robert Cross

Just so you know folks: Russ' source (Canada free press) has been known to exhibit "extreme bias, overt propaganda, poor or no sourcing to credible information and/or is fake news.... Canada Free Press is an overtly Christian, extreme right website that peddles conspiracy theories such as Obama being an Islamic Terrorist and 9/11 as an inside job..... They also promote pseudoscience such as Climate Change Denial and Creationism..... A factual search reveals numerous failed fact checks." Katy Grimes details may or may not be accurate and it would be prudent, given the source's reputation, to look for corroborating evidence elsewhere before taking it as the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

This is, apparently, an attempt to deflect attention away from the effects climate change has had on the devastating wildfire situation and cast doubt on its role in the unprecedented conditions that have led to the fires. And, at the same time, putting the blame onto the right's favorite excuse, left leaning politicians, any of them, Obama, Clinton, Brown, Pelosi, and now a whole host of new enemies in the form of non-white and/or non-Christian women recently elected to the House.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/canada-free-press/

Bill Tozer

Good read on Dr. Rebane’s post. After being the guy with a garden hose on the roof in one of those So Ca fires fires racing up the chimney (on a ridge above La Tuna Canyon), I agree with the Bottomline from your lovely wife. Just the blasting furnace smoke filled with burning ambers blew me off the roof up into the air and, like Mary Poppins slowly landing with her umbrella, I gently landed in the street in front f the house. And the fire was still down the canyon.
I will never forget the chorus of screaming souls as a group of about a dozen Lookie-Lou’s not away had stopped and gathered to watch the fire. After landing on my feet in the street, the wind shifted and that hot ass skin, nose, eyebrows, hair singing smoke hit them right in their kissers and they went running like screaming banshees back to their cars, lol
Well said, Jo Ann Rebane. Well said.

When all is said and done, Jo Ann said it best, “If your house is going to burn, it will burn.” This stoic que sera sera attitude should be a necessary ingredient in the make-up of all who insist on living in the beauty and quietude of lands that almost always are periodically purged by wildfires. The risk of your home burning is the price paid for that, and we should not seek to change the character of our chosen hideaways by unreasonably insisting that they be made as safe and convenient as the city streets from which we sought respite.

fish

Posted by: Robert Cross | 17 November 2018 at 09:09 PM


.....thanks bobsy!.

scenes

OK, I've got it straight now.

That big fire's cause is a combination of a lack of logging and the Republicans putting too much CO2 in the air while not listening enough to people of color and women.

My main lesson is that an evacuation plan can turn to utter shite if you stir the whole ant nest at the same time.

“If your house is going to burn, it will burn.”

On that matter, just what construction techniques and minimum setback from flammable plants (or other houses) is needed to actually make it through a big fire event? It sounds like a modelable problem. I expect that you would have to denude Nevada City, but at least it would look more historically accurate.

Bill Tozef

Katy Grimes is a darn good reporter.

No need to look, let fact check do all your thinking for you. You research is now complete.

Kathy Grimes reported on some hanky panky voting irregularities in Riverside County and some rather key places here in the Golden State in off year election (no big names or offices) which lead to the election of our current CA Secretary of State. Who cares. Twas just one Latino running against another Latin politician, right? Nothing to see here, accord fact checkers.

https://m.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.217983685002343/1457692744364758/?type=3&source=54

Todd Juvinall

My I seem to have seen thousands of trees, large ones, blackend and dead. And as I have read the reports and listened to the actual witnesses from the area it means to me that Spiller is full of shit. Where these people come up with their BS is beyond me. As far as SPI they have one mill left I heard and it is a small log (diameter) one in Lincoln. And as far as I know the Spillers commands of no tree in width up three feet at 30" in diameter can be cut. The Sierra Club etal have the blood of hundreds maybe thousands on their hands as they have sued endlessly to gain their forest management. Good job Spiller.

Todd Juvinall

Another point to the article here is THP's. Timber Harvest Plans and their progeny, tree cutting in the cities. Heritage trees in zoning laws and General Plans. We saw a landowners ownership of his trees taken by the state all the way down to a single tree. Complex silviculture plans and affidavits the trees are a hazard cost money and time. So many never get removed. I am waiting for that "eminent domain" law that says the government has to pay me for my trees they won't let me cut.

Russ


GLOBAL WARMING FOR THE TWO CULTURES

By Richard Lindzen

Retired MIT Professor of Atmospheric Physics Lindzen's global warming conclusion:

"So there you have it. An implausible conjecture backed by false evidence and repeated incessantly has become politically correct ‘knowledge,’ and is used to promote the overturn of industrial civilization. What we will be leaving our grandchildren is not a planet damaged by industrial progress, but a record of unfathomable silliness as well as a landscape degraded by rusting wind farms and decaying solar panel arrays. False claims about 97% agreement will not spare us, but the willingness of scientists to keep mum is likely to much reduce trust in and support for science. Perhaps this won’t be such a bad thing after all – certainly as concerns ‘official’ science.

There is at least one positive aspect to the present situation. None of the proposed policies will have much impact on greenhouse gases. Thus we will continue to benefit from the one thing that can be clearly attributed to elevated carbon dioxide: namely, its effective role as a plant fertilizer, and reducer of the drought vulnerability of plants. Meanwhile, the IPCC is claiming that we need to prevent another 0.5◦C of warming, although the 1◦C that has occurred so far has been accompanied by the greatest increase in human welfare in history. As we used to say in my childhood home of the Bronx: ‘Go figure’."

It is well worth your time to read the whole presentation.

https://www.thegwpf.org/content/uploads/2018/10/Lindzen-AnnualGWPF-lecture.pdf

Russ

When the left does not like the message they try to kill the messenger, like Robert Cross did in his 17 November 2018 at 09:09 PM post. I had known Katy Grimes to be a reliable reporter when she wrote for CALMatters. Given Robert's effort to discredit Katy and the Canadian Free Press she must have an important message. I recommend you all re-read Katy Grimes article on Governor Brown's actions. Actions often speak louder than words.

Russ

Advice for Newsom from Sac Bee influencers: California’s electricity should be 100 percent renewable

As part of the Sacramento Bee’s California Influencer series, a group of us met in Sacramento last week to offer some thoughts to California’s incoming leadership in the area of energy and the environment. Our recommendations begin with the obvious and inescapable: Climate change is upon us and requires action now.

Climate change is real. There is no longer any point in dividing along the lines of climate change “believers’ vs. climate change “deniers.” But there are legitimate questions about what responses are most effective and which levels of government should address them. Demonizing opponents won’t solve problems.


Some responses are simple. California needs to continue its drive to produce 100 percent of its electricity through renewable sources. This state is an international leader in this area, and it must continue to lead, particularly at a time when Washington refuses to do so.


Influencers Rosalind Hudnell, Donna Lucas, Chad Pearce, Kathryn Phillips, Karen Skelton, and Steve Westly has some more advice for Gov-Elect Newsom:


First: What is California’s path toward ending oil extraction in this state? That would include the end of fracking and offshore oil drilling; not tomorrow, but someday – the sooner, the better.


Second, California needs a long-term vision for its water infrastructure, from a discussion of the proposed tunnels to transport water south to the more basic work of hardening water mains and pipes in cities and communities. The emphasis should be first on conservation, then on recycling and -- only last -- on transport.


Third and finally, will California commit to the eventual prohibition of the sale of new gas-burning cars? This may seem ambitious, but nine countries today have enacted or are preparing to enact such bans. California will not be the first to take this historic step. Nor should it be the last.

https://www.sacbee.com/opinion/opinion-influencers/article221794210.html

All this to solve a problem that humans cannot control the climate. If you have not read Lindzen's presentation, now would be a good time. It will help put this stupidity in perspective.

Russ

Robert Cross @ 09:09 PM

Robert, if you do not like the Canadian Free Press, here is the source of the article.

https://sacramentocitizen.wordpress.com/2018/08/08/ca-gov-jerry-brown-vetoed-bipartisan-wildfire-management-bill-in-2016/

I reblogged the post at Sierra Foothills Commentary, and I noted that blogs with wider distribution are linking to Katy's blog Sacramento Citizen, where she is monitoring government action and no action. Her post was linked to Instapundit [https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/] but has not made Drudge yet. Stay Tuned, as I sent the link to Drudge.

scenes

ToddJ: "We saw a landowners ownership of his trees taken by the state all the way down to a single tree. Complex silviculture plans and affidavits the trees are a hazard cost money and time."

Just try getting a tree cut through the various city planning commissions. I don't know, but I'll bet that the Coastal Commission can be a real trip with that sort of thing.

Probably what we'll get, and this should help PaulE with his flammable neighbor, is to jump from 'thou shalt not cut trees without beaucoup expensive paperwork' to 'thou shalt cut everything we decide you need to but it's at your expense'. My guess is that a proper clearing of most in-town lots of any size would render them valueless due to the expense.

Bill Tozer

Scenes

You have been dropping hints at a solution. We need to build and dwell in some kind of tornado bunker abode underground. I have seen homes dug into the ground or into the side of a slope and covered with a layer of dirt and sod. Very energy efficient as well. Heat rises, so get down under it as big flames approacheth. A fantastic solution for single family homes where the urban interfaces with the forest/wildlands.

In California we have earthquakes, wildland fires, and droughts. Other places have Tornado Alley and Hurricane Zones. Dig baby, dig. Above ground adobe and mud houses would work great in the deserts even where fires occur because the lack the vegetation does not cause too much death and destruction. The only places where homes buried into the ground or small rises would be in flood zones and place like Louisiana where the water table is just six feet. And activr volanco zones. Think about it. Our forefathers lived in caves and their abodes, albeit humble, did not burn.

As a kid, Mr. Fireman came to the school and said three things are required for fire. Heat, oxygen, and fuel. That’s it. I reckon that has remained uchanged even in our post racial/ post Enlightement age.

Bottomline: It don’t matter what I say. The post enlightenment Progressives will wake up each morning, look out the window, and whatever problems there are will be blamed on Global Warming and racism. Climate Change is racist, so why split hairs? Simplify things and blame everything under the cooling sun on Global Warming.

Sub terranian dwellers are cool 😎. Maybe not in volanco zones, but still cool.

Robert Cross

Russ: according to the San Jose Mercury News about trump's visit.

“Trump appeared to be talking about the need to thin forests that are overgrown from decades of fire suppression, something that Brown accelerated this fall when he signed a law approving $1 billion in state money over the next five years for forest thinning projects and controlled burns."

This makes your post about something that may have occurred two years ago much like kicking a dead horse.

Sacramento Citizen is a blog.. Blogs, like this one, aren't particularly known for unbiased information and Drudge is a joke outside of extreme right circles.

fish

Posted by: Robert Cross | 18 November 2018 at 09:08 AM


600 lbs of "newspaper" laden envy eh bobsy? How was China? Looks like you made it out in one piece......so you got that going for you....which is nice.

Walt

Funny how things will change over night. Back on the day before election, here in in Ca. every LIB Progressive running for office was " We will show Trump how things are done here in Calif... RESIST!!" NOW,, it's " it's time to put the politics aside... FORK OVER THE MONEY!!!" Now those same Proggys are trying to kiss Trump's ass for FED handouts.

Look how fast Moonbat and Gov. elect Gavin Nuisance started begging for FED dollars. Right after telling the FEDS to go fuck themselves.(we love our illegals... WE hate your 2ND Amendment.. NO drill, NO mining!! NO logging!! Washington has no place telling Ca. what to do!)
How many lawsuits does Ca. have against the Trump admin. at the moment? Yet now has their hand out wanting money.

Chief

Juvinall: "As far as SPI they have one mill left I heard and it is a small log (diameter) one in Lincoln."

SPI is the largest landowner in the state. Not only do they have six primary mills across northern California, they sub many other facilities when capacity demands. The vast majority of their product are (and always have been) raw logs shipped overseas. One would think that Todd, a self-described magnet in the building trade, would have some level of understanding where his building products are sourced. So much for having any sort of handle on the facts, but that has never slowed you down before when spouting out.

George Boardman

Chief, Todd hears a lot of things, few of which he can actually substantiate.

Todd Juvinall

Chief | 18 November 2018 at 09:35 AM

Your reading skills are lacking. I did not spout a fact I said "I heard". But that doesn't mean what you wrote is correct. SPI is the largest landowner in California but the rules on cutting a tree here in the state are as I said. 30 inches or less. And the mill in Lincoln is a fact. When I was building all the lumber was coming from Canada. All very subsidized as to undercut American lumber. If you disagree with that then give us your links or be just another dumbass yapper.

SPI has six mills in California and here is the link. Maybe you need to review what they do. Maybe chat with Tim Fellers if he still works there.

http://www.spi-ind.com/Operations/SawmillOperations

Walt

And right now "chief", what mills are still left, ain't taking logs at the moment. They have more than they can stack, and still running 24/7. The ONLY thing getting shipped "over seas" is fur logs, or saw dust. And even the price of that is low.

These are the things you learn when sharing a yard with a logging outfit.

The people "next door" needed to take down about 30 pine trees.(dead and soon to be) Care to take a guess how long it took them to get through the County game playing,, with harvest plans, inspections, permits and fees?

Todd Juvinall

George Boardman | 18 November 2018 at 09:50 AM

Funny that is what the community says about you. Fakenews man. And that is your "profession"! What a hoot!

***M***

,,,yes George,,,I like the photo on the right,,,the one that looks like it did before Eurotrash landed here and strarted ‘’’developing’’’the forests.

,,,Russ,,, I am surprised at you and your ilk
All you do is bitch about more regulations,,,then you fall in love with SB 1463 that would have created another ‘’’commission’’’

,,,Russ,,,have you seen the local PGE staging area across from the fairgrounds??? Why do you think they are there,,,

Here is what our Great outgoing Governor had to say about the bill,,,

To the Members of the California State Senate:

I am returning Senate Bill 1463 without my signature.

This bill requires the Public Utilities Commission to prioritize areas that have increased fire hazard associated with overhead utility facilities.

Since May of last year, the Commission and CalFire have been doing just that through the existing proceeding on fire-threat maps and fire-safety regulations. This deliberative process should continue and the issues this bill seeks to address should be raised in that forum.

Sincerely,

Edmund G. Brown Jr.

***M***

,,,pushin’ squiggles time,,,if a fir tree was planted in 1995,,,that infamous year the eco nuts took over government,,,calculate the average number of board feet of merchantable lumber the tree would contain???

fish

Posted by: ***M*** | 18 November 2018 at 10:16 AM

the one that looks like it did before Eurotrash landed here and strarted ‘’’developing’’’the forests.

Hmmmm....so much self loathing......it explains much. I am interested in when it strarted though.

And I don't think anyone would think less of you if you returned to the "old country" dugsKKKi.......Depends™ are readily available in any of the major urban centers ....Glasgow, Edinburgh, etc. so no real change in your lifestyle.....!

Plus....since the "internet is changing the way communicate" you can beat your keyboard like the rabid howler monkey that you are and stay in touch from across the pond!

fish

Posted by: fish | 18 November 2018 at 10:30 AM


.......you can continue to beat your keyboard.......


Eh whaddya going to do.......it's not like I screwed up my moms memorial tribute or anything!

George Rebane

For the interested reader - Mr M (1016am) is again confused. The west's mountains looked very much like the 1900AD photo on the left, before the start of our wholesale fire prevention and suppression programs. The cited book shows even more stark differences from earlier in the 19th century. I'm not sure as to Mr M's fevered reference to the activities of "Eurotrash"; perhaps he can explain himself.

For the record, according to Rebane Doctrine, if you build in a flood, hurricane, or wildfire zone and lose your house, then suck it up and handle your own finances to either rebuild or move - you are not entitled to other people's money to mitigate your own poor decisions. We have enjoyed living in fire prone areas for the last 40 years, and we have done that realizing that any year we may lose all of our 'things'. But never have we expected you to pay for our possible folly.

Living under dirt. I'm happy to see other readers talk about the wisdom and convenience of living with a pile of dirt over and around your domicile. For years, a number of us young engineers would 'design' dirt-ladened and dirt-burrowed houses over beer and hamburgers. All of us agreed that these should definitely be the kind of houses people should build on forested hillsides and in the Great Plains Tornado Alley.

Bill Tozer

Walt
On private lands on smaller acreage, I can’t tell you how many people I have known that have to pay for tree removal. Not cheap. And any logs sold to the mill, they are taxed on the proceeds, if any. It’s not even a wash if one is taking about 6 or 8 trees.

A billion dollars over 5 years? Hmmm. 200 million a year is a start. CalFire (formerly the California Department of Forestry before they changed their mission) is in charge of State and private lands. I have no problems with fires burning in the wilderness on Federal land for months. That’s nature’s way with few structures to worry about. It’s the interface where urbanites move into wildlands that is the problem.

PG&E’s stock value dropped in half. Sucks for all those pension plans that own “safe” utility stocks.

fish

Posted by: ***M*** | 18 November 2018 at 10:23 AM


......if a fir tree was planted in 1995,,,that infamous year the eco nuts took over government,,,calculate the average number of board feet of merchantable lumber the tree would contain???


Oooh......word problems......can I play too dugsKKKi?


Q: If you're riding down railroad tracks on an igloo and all 4 wheels fall off, how many flapjacks does it take to cover a doghouse?

Paul Emery

George Boardman Writes:

"Todd hears a lot of things, few of which he can actually substantiate."

How right you are George. Todd still believes that Trump scored big in the last election, the Republican Party is healthy in California and that Nevada County is still a Red County. Sad.

Walt

Well Bill,, notice the ECO bastards won't acknowledge the destruction their own handwork has caused? "They" pushed for these regs. "We", are now getting blamed for their stupid law making.
Their new "out" is AGW. "Oh WE ain't to blame,, AGW did it.

Now if anyone paid attention to our own police blotter, they would have seen the reports of people threatening power line crews for liming trees to try and prevent fires.
Like the trees would have their feelings hurt due to a bad haircut.

If anyone has been through Lake Wildwood, they may have noticed the city folk transplants who planted Redwood trees UNDER the damned POWER LINES. Then they bitched to high heaven when PG&E cut them down to the ten foot line.

The same line of thinking is happening on hy 174. " NO! You can't cut those trees! So... How many more live to be lost in the name of ECO?

Walt

How many board feet is grown per year?
In the 1990s, growth averaged 9.2 billion board feet per year across all ownerships, while harvest averaged 4.5 billion board feet per year, and natural mortality averaged 2.3 billion board feet per year, for a net increase of about 2.4 billion board feet per year.
Timber Facts & figures
www.loggers.com/timber_facts.htm

And that get's broken down even farther.

Now,, how many board feet went up in smoke? Please include the lumber in all the structures, as well as standing timber.

Bill Tozer

Fir tree planted 23 years ago? Not a lot of board feet. If it’s white fir or piss fir, no commercial value. No worries. Bubba made 49 million acres off limits to any road building. CA added 15-50k cost to every logging truck and heavy equipment in the state. Only the big boys can compete. The rich get richer, the small guy is a rare breed. Not profitable to remove hard to get to trees on private land in many cases. The real world does not work for the Red Cross and government produces nothing.
————
Loyalton went bust. Hasn’t made a Cal-PERS payment in 3 years. The bio-mass burning electricity generation plants never materialized. Cost more to run them than electricity generated. Strike that great plan by the eco-fascists.

“Environmental extremists leveraged liberal lawmakers in California and Washington DC until the Clinton Administration shut down the timber industry. Anti-timber forces got their way pitching junk science about an owl. The Spotted Owl’s decline continues today in a people-free forest although the Bard Owl was the real culprit killing off its weaker cousin.

“Three quarters of the land around Loyalton is owned by the federal government and to “protect the Spotted Owl” the forests were declared off-limits to loggers. The last sawmill and Sierra County’s biggest employer ended operations in early 2001. More than half the mills in the state are now closed.

“As a result, most of Loyalton’s businesses have been boarded up. The hospital went bankrupt. In 2015, the population was at 733 down from 1,030 in 1980. People have relocated or travel to Reno and Tahoe for employment. School officials wonder whether they can afford to stay open.

“In March 2013, the city council voted to withdraw from CalPERS and cut salaries on their one full-time and four part-time employees. The city was going broke and could not afford its premium payments.

“Recently, Loyalton received a Cal PERS bill for $1.66 million for future payments, withdrawal fees and interest at 7.5%. That is $2,264 per remaining resident. Dropping out of the mafia is less painful.”

https://www.eterritorial.com/47-guest-writers/lou-binninger/10269-state-and-calpers-ruin-loyalton

Darn Bard Owl attacking Spotted Owl nests and crushing the little Spotted Owls with glee. It’s a nature thing.

https://www.eterritorial.com/47-guest-writers/lou-binninger/10269-state-and-calpers-ruin-loyalton

.

'''M'''

,,,question for trump and the know-it-alls, what percentage of the devastation was due to crown fire spread?

George Rebane

FYI - As one component of a comprehensive wildlands fuels management program, regularly prescribed burns designed to create/maintain firebreaks consume the fuel loads at all above ground heights.

Robert Cross

little fishy in a mud puddle-- you seem to be infatuated with someone whom I am not. Your attempted insults fall on deaf ears.

You folks echo trump and bitch about forest management in your attempts to discredit Democrats.. DUH! Most of the forest land in under federal control.. bitch at the Dep'ts of Interior and Ag. they are the ones who instituted the fire suppression mantra.. at the behest of the logging industry that didn't want to see their cheap timber supply decreased via thinning.

fish

Posted by: '''M''' | 18 November 2018 at 11:03 AM

,,,question for trump and the know-it-alls, what percentage of the devastation was due to crown fire spread?


Sorry dugsKKKi......your progressive colleague and all round fellow nitwit Punch Emery stated quite clearly, and for the record that "Stupid questions need not be answered"......since you are asking, by definition, it must be a "Stupid Question".


Thanks for playing and please enjoy these lovely parting gifts.... including this home version of our game!


fish

Posted by: Robert Cross | 18 November 2018 at 11:15 AM

....you seem to be infatuated with someone whom I am not.

Sure bobsy.....whatever you say...It'll be our little secret! ;-)


You folks echo trump and bitch about forest management in your attempts to discredit Democrats.


Absolutely false......Democrats discredit themselves quite nicely thank you!

Bill Tozer

@11:12 am

Yes, but all burning is controlled by the CA Air Resources Board (CARB), is it not? Perhaps there are exemptions for control burns.

“The California Air Resources Board (CARB) is charged with protecting the public from the harmful effects of air pollution and developing programs and actions to fight climate change.”

Burning is bad and nobody likes to look at smoke, not to mention smell it. Oh well, screw them if they can’t take a joke.

Bill Tozer

11:03 am. The body of main fire never hit Paradise first. It was the burning embers in the winds from the main fire that started Paradise ablaze. But, you knew that. Fires have a way of jumping.

Walt

Even today, our ECO bastards want "wild and scenic" and "pretty" over fire safety. Dead people and billions lost in property loss are just collateral damage. Big Gov. can pick up the bill.

But BK the likes of PG&E and put the blame on them. Send them the bill for the damage, and throw a few in jail for good measure.
Then Government can run the power company... Right Proggys?
(never mind that Gov. can't even run a whore house and turn a profit...... That's a proven fact)

Bill Tozef

Didn’t that Oregon Stand-off start because of a controlled burn?

Dwight Hammond set a prescribed burn on about 300 acres of his own land that then traveled onto Bureau of Land Management property and burned an additional 139 acres, his lawyer wrote. The elder Hammond said he was trying to fend off invasive species.

They cited the opinion of the trial judge, U.S. District Judge Michael Hogan, who found the five-year sentences "grossly disproportionate to the severity of the offenses here'' and noted that the fires didn't endanger any people or property.

Round and round we go, where it stops nobody knows.


Bill Tozet

Robert Cross
I, for one, will read anything I damn well please anytime I please whether the control freaks like you approve of it or not.. Hey thought police, put this in your mouth and do what you do best. Say “ahhh”. Good.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=286457168647451&set=gm.514737262375111&type=3&theater
—————————
Finally, a real solution to our wildfire way of life.

https://m.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.254420818025296/1479487072185325/?type=3&source=48

———————
10:50 am. Darn it, stay on topic. Take it elsewhere with your pathological obsessions. The topic is CA wildfires. Can you wrap your TDS (Todd Derangement Syndrome) around the topic at hand??

Bill Tozer

Read it and weep...literally. One morning in Paradise.

Wind gusting at 72 mph blew the flames sideways, propelling them house to house so quickly that heat did not have time to bake the leaf canopy of the trees above. Houses incinerated while the trees around them remained unscorched.

https://www.gazettextra.com/news/nation_world/what-started-as-a-tiny-brush-fire-became-california-s/article_9b32290d-1cb4-554b-a984-ef7ae358b189.html

Russ

#CampFire #WoolseyFire Blaming climate – ignoring incompetence

Paul Driessen the policy advisor for the Committee For A Constructive Tomorrow and author of articles and books on energy, natural resource, climate change, health, environmental and human rights issues has an essay on fire regulations at Watt's Up With That. [Yes, Robert I know this, not a credible messenger according to your lefty cult, but stop a moment and look at the details]

Governor Brown recently said that, especially during this “new abnormal,” you have to “do prevention” and “have escape routes” and adapt to “a changed world that not so many people were aware of or were thinking about.” These actions are part of his job – the job of regulators, politicians and judges.

Not only have they been derelict in their duties. They have colluded to prevent tree thinning and dead tree removal. They’ve contested recent initiatives by the Interior Department and Forest Service to revise and reverse policies that invite deadly infernos in the 56% of California forests that are under direct federal control. They’ve perpetuated what Congressman Tom McClintock (R-CA) calls “ponderous, byzantine laws and regulations administered by a cadre of ideological zealots.”

In too many areas, tree and brush clearing, dead and diseased tree removal, and the construction of fire breaks and additional escape routes are prohibited – or must go through decades-long study, review, approval and litigation processes. Only a fool or ideologue would fail to foresee the inevitable results.

In many cases, companies are not even allowed to salvage blackened trees that might be left standing after a conflagration has passed through an area. In stark contrast to these areas, privately and tribally managed forests outside the once-Golden State are actively managed to prevent major fires like those that have devastated vast national forest areas in California and other Western states.

In California, if private landowners want to burn leaves and tree limbs to reduce fire hazards, they must first obtain air-quality permits from local air districts, burn permits from local fire agencies, and other permits depending on the location, size, type and timing of a proposed burn, air and ground moisture levels, and other factors. That’s all well and good, if the rules prevent fires that could turn into infernos.

But do the bureaucrats make any attempt to factor in the horrendous air pollution and utter destruction from the monstrous fires their decrees cause by delaying or blocking brush clearing or controlled burns?

The full report is here, regardless of Robert's claim this a bad messenger: https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/11/18/campfire-woolseyfire-blaming-climate-ignoring-incompetence/

George Rebane

The Left's selective rejection of reality does not depend on the firm rule of dismissing all reports from politically incorrect sources, regardless of their verifiable content. It's a bit more sophisticated, and really turns on what will support their constant drizzle of anti-capitalist and anti-American narrative. We note that they have yet to reject limited access high speed roads (aka freeways) even though they were invented by Nazi Germany.

But then again, maybe they just haven't got around to it yet - A21 is not in favor of roadways of any kind that let people drive privately owned vehicles wherever they will.

Walt

Spending some time on the Frisco paper's site,, the ill informed "down there" are all bent out of shape because "natural disaster" is being used.
They must not know the diff between an arsonist or a tree branch which took down a power line.
Mamma Nature can never be held responsible when Frisco values come into play.

Russ

How Misguided Environmentalism Is To Blame For California’s Wildfires

The saddest part about these fires in California is that they are self inflicted. Californians should not allow such mismanagement to continue.

Krystina Skurk in the Federalist

[. . .]

Despite scientific evidence, the federal government continues spending more money on fire suppression than prescribed burns. The Forest Service has performed prescribed burns on an average of 2,187,64 2 acres a year for the past ten years, according to the National Interagency Fire Center.

This means the Forest Service has only performed prescribed burns on 11.3 percent of the land they manage. When explaining to Mother Jones why the California Wine Country fires were so bad last October, fire ecologist Sasha Berleman said, “We have 100 years of fire suppression that has led to this huge accumulation of fuel loads.”

The policy of fire suppression has created what insurance companies call “mega catastrophes,” a term that describes disasters that result in insured losses of more than $1 billion. Mega catastrophes are becoming the norm in California. In 2017, there were 5,906 fires on state and private land, Kathleen Schori, an assistant chief at CAL FIRE, said in a phone interview. “Extreme fire behavior has become more commonplace,” says the Forest Service.

[. . . ]

According to a Reason Foundation study, another flaw in forest management is a systematic reduction in timber removal. This began in 1990 when the spotted owl was listed as threatened under the Endangered Species Act. In response, the Forest Service placed restrictions on timber harvests. Additionally, President Bill Clinton introduced a rule that restricted the construction of new roads on 49 million acres of national forest. This limited the ability of the Forest Service from thinning trees. In 1993, 1,797,574 acres of wildlands burned, but in 2017 this number jumped to 10,026,086 acres.

From 1960 to 1990, 10.3 billion board feet of timber were removed from federal forest land each year. From 1991 to 2000 that numbered dropped to 2.1 billion board feet of timber per year.

[. . .]

Ironically, these ill-conceived environmental policies designed to ward off climate change have been the source of massive amounts of carbon dioxide pollution. A forest fire’s initial blaze releases 5.2. million metric tons of greenhouse gas emissions, according to Forest Service ecologist Leland Tarnay. This is equivalent to the amount of emissions from 1.1 million passenger cars in a year.

Full text is here: http://thefederalist.com/2018/11/16/misguided-environmentalism-blame-californias-wildfires/

It appears that "what if" thinking seems to escape environmentalist.

Paul Emery

George

I read with fascination your recollection of the fire that nearly took your home. How did your former home do in the current Malibu fires last week?

Russ

California Governor: “In Less than Five Years, Even the Worst Skeptics Will Be Believers”

Governor Jerry Brown of California thinks coming climate disasters will convert even the “worst” skeptics in five years, though in a surprisingly moderate interview (for Brown) he also admitted that forest management might be playing a part in California’s wildfires.

Video Here: https://youtu.be/p9ZWiFKyOcU

Since we are in a solar minimum and will be for the next five years, it is going to be hard to see any anthropogenic temperature increases. Historically solar minimums result in cooler temperatures.

George Rebane

PaulE 507pm - Fortunately, this fire through the Santa Monica Mtns came through about ten miles to the west of our former house on Saddlepeak Rd.

Paul Emery

We can have Tuesday 1/29 and Tuesday 2/5 for town Hall meetings at the Theatre, Pick one for the schools and I'll use the other for Suicide Prevention.

See you tomorrow

Meanwhile we will reserve Tuesday 1/29 pending confirmation, and Tuesday 2/5 confirmed for KVMR Town Hall Forums.

Bonnie McGuire

Thanks GR, Russ and Todd for your observations and experience regarding the timber industry. We were in the trucking business and hauled logs many years. Got around to many areas. The gov has always been in control requiring whatever. It even had an ad in a San Francisco newspaper promising a paid vacation for anyone who would come to the Sierra to demonstrate against logging. It worked. As for SPI in Quincy. They donated to Environmentalists in order to survive. During our travel in Canada we noticed timber growing farms on the mountainsides. You could see the different stages of growth just like most agriculture farms. A woman in Line at a grocery store told me that most people didn't understand their climate was perfect for growing trees must faster than other places. Unfortunately, only those experienced in the business know what it involves. Lots of political manipulation destroyed the industry for most that were in it. Television even conducted a poll as to whether people were for the loggers, or the endangered spotted owl because of logging. Naturally, the city dwellers voted for the owls. Years later, after all was said and done, it was revealed that a larger owl was preying on the spotted owl, not logging.
http://www.mcguiresplace.net/Blind%20Man's%20Bluff

Paul Emery

Sorry for the irrelevant 6:07, I miss pasted a note about KVMR Town Halls in Feb

Don Bessee

Sorry for the irrelevant 6:07, @651

Well that's nothing new!


;-)

Bill Tozer

Miss Bonnie.

Blind Man’s Bluff? Good one. You got some spunk and fortitude. I hope you did not lose to many night’s sleep worried about hurting the poor man’s feelings. Maybe he learned something....or maybe not. Look before you leap, still water runs deep. :)

Todd Juvinall

My younger sister checked the Butte County list of the missing and found my mother's old friends on it. Here is the link.

http://www.buttecounty.net/Portals/24/pdf/11-16-18%20Unaccounted%20Persons2.pdf?ver=2018-11-17-084346-493&fbclid=IwAR2OsrTz632xh6DRklLUBUg9yX8Zck_tjaX7mVTOZ1s-qGP5H_eRramcfCM

Todd Juvinall

When I worked for Sierra Insulation we were up in the subdivision at South Lake Tahoe where 250 plus homes were burned up. The people living there told us they were forbidden by the TRPA of raking their pine needles. Great government eh?

***M***

,,,MARA,,, Make America Rake Again!!!

https://www.facebook.com/robi.patterson/videos/10101691583640106/

Todd Juvinall

"M" you are truly a moron.

'''M'''

,,,who is the moron Todd,,,

“I have a strong opinion,” trumpski said. “I want great climate, we are going to have that and we are going to have forests that are very safe.”

,,,you don’t really see what’s going on until you come here. And what we saw at Pleasure, what a name right now, but what we just saw, we just left Pleasure...”

Pleasure???

Todd Juvinall

Oh "M" you are just a gutless troll who likes to see his worthless yapping opinions on this blog. Get some cajones and tell us who you really are. Otherwise, the readers see what gutless trolls of the left really are.

***M***

,,,Mad Todd,,,we are going to need Caravans of rakers,,,

https://tinyurl.com/y8ggeceb

Todd Juvinall

Troll

Russ

Gov. Jerry Brown Quietly Admits Trump Was Right, Eases California Logging Rules

California Gov. Jerry Brown appears to have quietly admitted President Donald Trump's suggestion about improving California forestry was correct and is now urging state lawmakers to loosen restrictive logging regulations put in place to appease environmentalists.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/38520/gov-jerry-brown-quietly-admits-trump-was-right-emily-zanotti

Todd Juvinall

Unless the let the individual landowners loose to thin the trees then it will be fruitless. THP's down to a single tree keep people from thinning.

***M***

,,,Russ,,,check the date on your DailyWire echochamber,,,

Now check the date on this article,,,

https://www.santacruzsentinel.com/2018/08/23/gov-jerry-brown-proposes-easing-logging-rules-to-thin-forests/

been there,,,did that months ago,,,

Tricky McClean

Looks to me like Nazis all the way down.

Todd Juvinall

Tricky McClean | 19 November 2018 at 07:40 PM

Moron

Todd Juvinall

There is a concerted effort to embarrass Trump about the comments made about "raking" the forest. I went back and listened to the video and of course, Trump never said that is what he recommends. He said the Finnish President told him they do that. But the fake news and the Trump haters are saying that Trump said it. More BS no wonder it is fruitless to trust them and if people can't hear the same words and what they mean then we truly have morons galore.

Tricky McClean

Looks to me like morons all the way down.

***M***

,,,yes Todd,,, RakeGate is a conspiracy of epic proportions ,,,

https://tinyurl.com/y9mzm2a8

make that laughing stock of the world!!!

Paul Emery

Todd

I guess you missed it but the Finnish President claims he never said that. Fake news from Trump???

The president of Finland has said he doesn't recall discussing raking leaves with Donald Trump in regards to the management of forests - which is awkward for Trump, because he's said exactly that. quote:

"“We take care of our forests,” but couldn’t recall raking coming up."

"I was with the president of Finland and he called it a forest nation, and they spend a lot of time on raking and cleaning and doing things and they don’t have any problem."

Trump quote

'''M'''

,,,yes Paul,,,not surprising Trump made it up,,,residents of Pleasure would agree.

Todd Juvinall

So Paul Emery you would take the word of the Finnish President over your own President. OK, got it.

Todd Juvinall

Pleasure is in one of Obama's 57 states but I still can't find it.

fish

Posted by: ***M*** | 20 November 2018 at 11:06 AM

…...make that laughing stock of the world!!!


Says the man with the poopy pants!

***M***

,,,no Todd,,, The Finnish President raked his brain trying to figure out what Trump was talking about,,,

#Internationa Laughing Stock

https://twitter.com/pyryluminen/status/1064159712919334917/photo/1

Todd Juvinall

Still looking for those 7 states Obama said we have. The Finnish President is just trying to save his own ass. Why in hell would Trump make something like that up? For goodness sake he builds billion dollar buildings and that takes a lot of smarts.

Bill Tozer

It’s time to get the shovels ready boys, and get Dr. Rebane busy designing some sub terranian domiciles for us or, at a minimum, some of dirt and sod covered abodes to rest our weary bones. Scenes, Jerry Brown, and I are all on the same page. Just give Dr. Rebane some burgers and beers and he will have them designed in an hour. :)

“If you're going to live this close to the forest, if the climate is going to keep changing, you're going to have to build some kind of underground shelters," Brown said. "So that you can go in and protect yourself." Governor Edmond Brown, Nov. 18, 2018.

George Rebane

BillT 526pm - Interesting that you bring this up Mr Tozer. Jo Ann and I again revisited the construction of both earth-ladened homes and underground shelters from tornadoes, destructive winds, and, of course, wildfires. Shelters to save lives from wind and fires are amazingly cheap to construct, and extremely effective. To dig an 8-foot cube into the ground that will shelter, say, four people for up to 24hrs is both inexpensive and can be built by someone semi-handy with framing carpentry skills. The most expensive part of the structure is a strong non-flammable door that has some peep/air hole in it for longer stays.

The shelter would be provisioned with some non-perishable food items, water, first-aid kit, illumination,..., and two bunk beds to comfortably sleep four people. (Throw in an oxygen bottle if that gives you some extra comfort, but a volume that size will easily supply four people for 15-30 minutes.)

Consider that for a wildfire, the sheltered period need not be over 30 minutes, and usually less than that as the fire sweeps over your location. This is corroborated by firefighters and my own observations. The main thing is to get and stay out of the heat blast as the fire approaches and sweeps over your location. A covered and provisioned hole in the ground is just what this Dr ordered.

Mr Bronson can tell us what it would cost to dig the appropriate hole and then cover it after construction of the innards is finished. And BTW, none of this is new, people on the Great Plains have used their semi-buried root cellars, ice houses, basement rooms, etc for over 150 years to protect life and limb from tornadoes and prairie fires. Someone could probably make a good business building these shelters for those of us who insist on living in the high fire danger foothills.

What do you say Walt?

***M***

,,,it is not rocket science,,,I imagine many burned structures were build with soffit and ridge vents,,,

http://osfm.fire.ca.gov/codedevelopment/wildfireprotectionbuildingconstruction

Russ


Was Global Warming A Significant Factor in California's Camp Fire? The Answer is Clearly No.

Cliff Mass

[. . .]

Furthermore, there is no reason to expect that Diablo winds will increase under global warming; in fact, the opposite is the case. Global warming preferentially warms the interior of the continent compared to the eastern Pacific. Thus, human-caused warming would tend to weaken the interior high pressure, thus lessening a key driving force of the Diablo winds. There are several studies in the peer-reviewed scientific literature (e.g., this one) that show that global warming should weaken southern California's Santa Ana winds, which are also driven by the pressure difference between the western interior and the coast.

There is strong evidence that that Camp Fire was caused by failure of PG&E powerlines, not by any natural causes that could be linked to global warming. In fact, nearly all wildfires in California are caused by human error or arson. Increased population in California would clearly lead to more human fire initiation. Thus, global warming is not a factor in fire initiation.

http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2018/11/was-global-warming-significant-factor.html

Maxon

And the $500 million in the Farm Bill for fire prevention Trump touted, yet nobody on the hill has seen or ever heard of it? Still waiting to hear more news regarding Trump's announcement of the "across the board 10% tax cut for the middle class". Another miscommunication? Oh yeah Todd, he didn't say rake the forest, maybe it was rape the forest?? Trump has a way with words and when he doesn't, you have a way of listening and spinning.

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