« 11 November 1918 - Ed and Jack’s War | Main | Nationalism cum Patriotism »

13 November 2018

Comments

Russ

Bernie Schmitte, a Canadian forestry manager at a Fort McMurray news conference: “The boreal forest is a fire-dependent ecosystem. The spruce trees, pine trees, they like to burn... they have to burn to regenerate themselves, and those species have adapted themselves to fire. Their cones have adapted so they open up after the fire has left, and the trees have adapted in that once they’re old and need to be replaced, they’re available to fire so they burn.”

Lodgepole Pine cones require 1100 degrees of heat before the cones open and spread their seeds on the wind.

Russell

More Wildfire Facts

I have posted a book excerpt on Wildfires from the The Politically Incorrect Guide to Climate Change to Sierra Foothills Commentary blog, along with a graphic showing more fires in the 1920s and 1930s than in the 2000s. If an event occurs before the TV takling heads were born, it does not count as the worst.

scenes

re: Russell@11:42AM

Hah. That is an interesting chart.

I'd have to know a lot more than I do about the causes, spread, and damage that fires cause to have a worthwhile opinion on the matter. No doubt, I'll get to see 1000 politically-based screeds on the topic before the week is out.

It would be interesting to think through the engineering on a fire-safe version of a tornado shelter. One lesson from Paradise is that if you stir the ant den, so many people will pour out that your escape concept could well be useless in a place like that.

***M***

,,, George,,, Paradise was not in a national forest. It was a town and environs, mostly private property, that was not managed by the Forest Service. The PG&E fire that started across from the local fairgrounds was not in a forest but on private property. The Carr fire was started by a tire blowout along a state highway corridor. Most of the trees that are choking our local area are on private property. The Camp fire was started on private property by PG&E.

"'Although very significant in certain local economies, the overall economic impact of the forest industry in California in the 21st century is fairly modest. California forests produce about 350 million board feet of wood products annually. These products include $100 million in market value for saw timber and $40 million in market value electricity produced from biomass. Logging creates jobs for about 2,000 private sector workers. For comparison, thirty-three million people visit the National Forests of California for recreation, generating 38,000 outdoor recreation-related jobs"'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logging_in_the_Sierra_Nevada

***M***

Climate change/drought are making thing worse,,,not Eco LIbs

https://www.vox.com/2018/9/1/17800358/california-mendocino-wildfire-dead-trees

Walt

AGW my ass. Yes, it's the ECO whack jobs that contribute to this devastation. They piss and moan about every dead tree that needs to come down. They have bitched about forest thinning, and brush eradication in general. "it contributes to greenhouse gases".
Like what is happening right now isn't?????
Piss poor management and allowing city idiots to call the shots through litigation are the ones responsible.

If you clowns think man can influence climate,, make it rain.
If not,, shut up.

George Rebane

M 340pm - Mr M, it appears that another one of the significant public debates you have missed these past years (decades?) is how our forests have been mismanaged and its contribution to our yearly conflagrations. Your pabulum in response is part of how your tribe abets the annual devastation. I'm a bit amazed that you present such arguments in these pages, but then again, it is your prerogative.

scenes

An interesting small article I ran into.

"Reform forest fire management, Agency incentives undermine policy effectiveness"
M. P. North et al.
Sept. 2015 Science Magazine

Paul Emery

George

We have a situation in my neighborhood that there are hundreds of acres of sloped property down to Deer Creek that have virtually no trees and are covered with brush around 10 feet tall and very dry. The property owners, who ever they are, have no economic incentive to clear their property because they would lose nothing if it were all to burn and there are no buildings or structures. Should they be compelled by law to clear their property to ensure public safety?

fish

George

We have a situation in my neighborhood that there are hundreds of acres of sloped property down to Deer Creek that have virtually no trees and are covered with brush around 10 feet tall and very dry. The property owners, who ever they are, have no economic incentive to clear their property because they would lose nothing if it were all to burn and there are no buildings or structures. Should they be compelled by law to clear their property to ensure public safety?


STOP, STOP, STOP..........remember Punch........stupid questions, the majority of those questions that you pose.....are to be disregarded!

(I'm going to give you a break......do you want to rescind this one.....maybe start fresh tomorrow?)

Don Bessee

The pony tail of ignorance is in fine form tonight on that one.

;-)

Paul Emery

thanks for the deep thinking Fish and Don. You obviously have no ideas how to remedy this dangerous situation.

Paul Emery

The question was posed for George anyway.

Bonnie McGuire

As I watch the horrible fire that devasted Paradise and read the comments FS here I can't help but feel disgusted at the ignorance. Our present society has been so brainwashed to believe what they're told by th so called educated elite that they're out of touch by the obvious...nature, and earths being in charge of what happens. Originally, our National Forests were preserved so that Americans would have an endless suuply of affordable lumber, our water supply protected and improved, and our minerals protected and developed. What's been happening shows that those in charge don't give a damn until some disaster pops up. Don't blame Trump. He's the newcomer trying to change the way that's been going on for a long time. I know cuz I've been watching, saying things, and experiencing for a long time concerning the liars liars pants on fire. We were those accused of being tree murderers and persecuted by those who didn't know where the lumber for their homes came from. Now all the trees and homes are burning up. It's terrifying horrific and sad. God help us all!

George Rebane

PaulE 912pm - No. You moved there knowing the danger. But he should allow you to clear an appropriate amount of his land to make your house safe.

Don Bessee

I know the fire ordinances and regulations, the pony tail of ignorance is just justifying his name by showing he does not.
================================================


Here is one for Gregory -

“The sun is entering one of the deepest Solar Minima of the Space Age,” wrote Dr Tony Phillips just six weeks ago, on 27 Sep 2018.

Sunspots have been absent for most of 2018 and Earth’s upper atmosphere is responding, says Phillips, editor of spaceweather.com.

Data from NASA’s TIMED satellite show that the thermosphere (the uppermost layer of air around our planet) is cooling and shrinking, literally decreasing the radius of the atmosphere.

https://www.iceagenow.info/lack-of-sunspots-to-bring-record-cold-warns-nasa-scientist/

;-)

Scott O

from Paul - "The question was posed for George anyway."
I've posed several questions directed at you, Paul and you refuse to answer.
But of course the rest of us are to kowtow to you and snap to with your questions.
Why don't you get your lazy-assed left winged self down there and clear the brush?
Oh, because you are the high and exalted news guy at the local radio station.
Typical left winged do-nothing.
Just bitch and moan until someone else does the work.

Don Bessee

Bonnie, why should we be pay through the nose for Canadian lumber when we could supply ourselves with a rational forestry policy? PC policies actually kill people unlike the dems who say any disagreement with them kills people.

;-)

Russ

Trump Is Right: Poor Land Management Is Leading to Bigger California Fires

Federal lands have not been managed for decades, threatening adjacent private forests, while federal funds designated for forest maintenance have been ‘borrowed’ for fire suppression expenses. The policies frequently reduce the economic value of the forest to zero. And, with no intrinsic worth remaining, interest in maintaining the forest declined, and with it, resources to reduce the fuel load.


An awesome amount of forest made wide swaths of California a tinderbox just waiting for a spark.

According to the USDA Forest Service, there are an estimated 129 million dead trees over a territory of 8.9 million acres across California—a fact that even liberal Vox brought attention to as a major concern. And this doesn’t even account for the shrubs and brush that have been the primary contributors to the most recent fires.

https://www.dailysignal.com/2018/11/13/trump-is-right-poor-land-management-is-leading-to-bigger-california-fires/

scenes

It'll be interesting to see how the Blue Mob handles the whole thing. It's a single party state after all and is certainly capable of providing highly efficient gubmint run programs for fire dealings.

I expect the following important steps to be taken.

. California state .gov asks for more federal money.
. California state .gov makes it more difficult to do anything effective.
. Committees are formed at various levels.
. PGE/SCE shuts down the power every time there's a breeze
. Lots and lots of online bitching about global warming without mentioning China or the fact that any changes in behavior, if they made a difference, would take 100 years (or whatever) to take effect.
. Getting from Fresno to Bakersfield quickly will be on the front burner.

scenes

me@8:15

The main thrust of the article is that there is a disincentive for forest management to use planned burns for various reasons. An institutional push for suppression, liability concerns, fear of management for getting in trouble, clean air standards. Physical clearing hits the problem of access and wilderness areas of course.

also...the question of funding:

"For individual
NFs, there is little economic incentive
to change because fire suppression is
steadfastly financed through dedicated congressional
appropriations, which are augmented
with emergency funding, whereas
fuels reduction and prescribed burning
costs come out of a limited budget allotted
to each NF and is often borrowed to cover
wildfire suppression costs. With these deterrents,
“battling” fire and “only you can
prevent wildfire” campaigns have more
traction than recognizing that many severe
fires result from accrued management decisions.
This skewing of agency motivation
also distorts economic, insurance, and local
regulatory incentives that influence development
in fire-prone regions."

George Rebane

NPR, true to form, ran a big piece this morning dunning as FALSE (from Politifact) Trump's pointing to poor forest management as the major contributor to forest fires. They identified climate change as the major contributor, followed by development in the trees. The whole report smacked strongly of A21's big government solution managing people into stack&pack communities.

scenes

"A21's big government solution managing people into stack&pack communities."

It often comes down to that, doesn't it? For all I know, even the Blue Mob here in whiteopia likes the idea of apartments in the city. Given their fetish for the Third World and love of a dense and vibrant community, maybe a few years in a cheap flat in Lagos or Shanghai might be just the thing as an educational experience.

It's funny how often an attractive solution is ginned up and then goes looking for a problem to solve.

Gregory

db 928pm

I've been watching such things at spaceweather.com and here at
https://spaceweatherarchive.com/2018/09/27/the-chill-of-solar-minimum/

Don Bessee

And then there is this -

“Our error margins are too big now to really weigh in on the precise amount of warming that’s going on in the ocean,” Keeling said. “We really muffed the error margins.”


https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/environment/sd-me-climate-study-error-20181113-story.html

;-)

***M***

The buck stops with The Dotard-in-Chief. He has had plenty of time to give money to the Interior Dept. and FS to get after the forest fuel loads.

The three branches of government wasted their time on giving themselves a tax break, not getting health care done, and fighting immigrants.

Here is what his main man has been up to lately,

https://www.doi.gov/pressreleases/secretary-zinkes-schedule-october-27-november-2

***M***

,,,yes George,,,breaking out the ol' misery whip to whine about why nothing seems to get done because of damn EcoLibs and other conspiracy theories is a good way to distract the readers from the Trump post-election meltdown.

The Gov has been trying to figure out what to do about forest fires since Smokey the Bear arrived on the scene in 1950 back when you were a young whippersnapper out in the flyover states.

It takes money,,,yes,,,that stuff you and yours are constantly complaining that the 'governmint' is stealing from y'alls...

"Managing the Impacts of Wildfire on Communities and the Environment: A Report to the President In Response to the Wildfires of 2000"—The National Fire Plan
https://www.doi.gov/sites/doi.gov/files/migrated/pmb/owf/upload/2000-Report-to-the-President.pdf

https://www.usda.gov/sites/default/files/documents/usda-fy19-budget-summary.pdf ,,, see page 50+

fish

The buck stops with The Dotard-in-Chief. He has had plenty of time to give money to the Interior Dept. and FS to get after the forest fuel loads.


State of California Dead Tree and Timber survey estimates about 129 million dead trees in California. Amount cleared last year (between state and feds)………drum roll……1%!

You could allocate a trillion dollars for removal and forest maintenance and it would still take 50 years to make a dent due to permitting delays and lawsuits!


Does it hurt to be that stupid dugsKKKi?

Todd Juvinall

He is what shows up with those lawyers to testify at courts defeating timber harvests. We need to change the laws.

***M***

,,,George,,,your blogpost won't fight any fires,,,too many holes in your conspiracies,,,

,,,Wildfire suppression in the United States has had a long and varied history. For most of the 20th century, any form of wildland fire, whether it was naturally caused or otherwise, was quickly suppressed for fear of uncontrollable and destructive conflagrations such as the Peshtigo Fire in 1871 and the Great Fire of 1910. In the 1960s, policies governing wildfire suppression changed due to ecological studies that recognized fire as a natural process necessary for new growth. Today, policies advocating complete fire suppression have been exchanged for those who encourage wildland fire use, or the allowing of fire to act as a tool, such as the case with controlled burns.

,,,When the U.S. Forest Service was established in 1905, it became the primary task of the Forest Service to suppress all fires on the forest reserves it administered. In 1916, the National Park Service was established and took over park management from the Army. Following the Forest Service approach, fire suppression became the only fire policy and remained in the national parks for the next five decades. Some foresters questioned the economic logic of such suppression efforts. However, the extensive fires of 1910 solidified the Forest Service as the premier fire control organization and fire suppression remained the only fire policy for all federal land management agencies until the late 1960s.[12]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_wildfire_suppression_in_the_United_States

***M***

,,,brownlumpfish,,,it appears you are as smart as you are ugly,,,

According to Culum Brown from Macquarie University, "Fish are more intelligent than they appear. In many areas, such as memory, their cognitive powers match or exceed those of 'higher' vertebrates including non-human primates." Fish hold records for the relative brain weights of vertebrates.

***M***

,,,fishtard,,, I already posts about the dead and dying trees,,,try to keep up.

https://www.vox.com/2018/9/1/17800358/california-mendocino-wildfire-dead-trees

Todd Juvinall

I have been fighting the stupid laws the state and feds have passed for more than 30 years. I along with many in the industry warned these things would happen. Now they are and it has nothing to do with "climate change". It is all about the democrats and eco's "saving" the forests which we see has "backfired" no pun intended. So we are all at risk that live in these forests as the politicians are so afraid of the eco's they will let us all burn up.

***M***

,,,Billionaire loggers are cashing in,,,

,,,When the government sells contracts to cut down trees after fires in national forests—a controversial practice known as post-fire salvage logging—Emmerson buys in at a steep discount, often paying one half to one fourth the price for traditional wood. Sierra Pacific then turns the usable lumber (about 90%) into boards and other wood products to sell to homebuilders and lumber retailers like Home Depot, Menards and Lowe's.

We’ll be in there before the smoke is out,” vows timber baron Red Emmerson, who Forbes estimates makes more money from logging after forest fires than anyone in America”

Sierra Pacific has little competition, thanks to a 1990 law that prohibits bidding from any lumber companies that export logs. That eliminates rivals like publicly traded Weyerhaeuser and Rayonier as well as big Canadian firms.

https://www.forbes.com/feature/archie-emmerson-timber-forest-fires-logging/#4d0cd94a64f9

scenes

I can't see that climate change, regardless of the cause, has much to do with the immediate problem of fire. If it's anthropogenic, it'll take centuries to really change. If not, there's nothing to be done.

It does give people a chance to push an agenda, though.

My guess is that the underlying tension will be between the coastal (and numerous) Blue Mob who want the forests to be wilderness areas vs. people who live there. One answer is to not allow habitation in areas with trees or grass, the other is to do something fairly drastic about it. My bet (as usual) is on the Blue Mob. Richer, more of them, louder.

scenes

"The buck stops with The Dotard-in-Chief. He has had plenty of time to give money to the Interior Dept. and FS to get after the forest fuel loads."

lol. Oh come on, pull the other one.

The guy has been in office barely two years, there's a hundred years of inertia in the system, special interest groups galore, no clear answer.

This is the kind of anti-Trump nonsense that makes the more reasonable complaints sound silly too.

George Rebane

We note that M has said literally nothing relevant or new to this conversation. Blaming corporatists for taking advantage of laws they bought/instigated from corrupt and ignorant politicians is not an indictment of capitalism, but of big government that has a 'for sale' sign prominently displayed. But his most egregious ignorance is that he thinks the sentiments in my commentary are somehow unique to RR (no matter the included links). This one-sided awareness of the national dialogue's contents is what makes cross-chasm conversations so unproductive and validates the country's polarization.

***M***

Santa Cruz County forester Matt Bissell said redwood log prices have risen and landowners are seeing good returns.

"But with all of the drought mortality in the Sierra, the pine market is flooded and prices are low," Bissell said. "Some long-term landowners are losing money to get rid of the fire and beetle hazard."
"Another problem is tree mortality, particularly in the central Sierra, but we're seeing the bark beetles moving farther north and they are now being found in El Dorado," he said. "Right now, there's a glut of fire- and beetle-killed trees on the market and there aren't enough mills to take all those dead trees."

https://goldrushcam.com/sierrasuntimes/index.php/news/local-news/6954-california-timber-market-improves-amid-concerns

Don Bessee

there aren't enough mills to take all those dead trees."

And why would that be?

;-)

Todd Juvinall

I think there are no large log mills but Lincoln has the last small log mill.

***M***

,,,sure george,,, nothing new,,,except for the part you left out that fire suppression has not been the only method of forest management for the last 60-years.

scenes

"fire suppression has not been the only method of forest management for the last 60-years."

In Southern California, I'd say that the primary form of suppression has been paving.

Paul Emery

George

Our biggest fire threat in our Nevada City area is from neglected private land that has built up huge fuel loads that are an immediate threat to neighbors. i paid to clear my property to safe levels but private land holdings in the Deer Creek Canyon have done nothing to ease the problem. What ideas do you have to alleviate this? The properties have no assets (houses-buildings) on the land and very little timber so logging is not a help. If Nevada City were to suffer a Paradise fate it would likely be from a fire roaring up the Deer Creek Canyon.

scenes

"Our biggest fire threat in our Nevada City area is from neglected private land"

Given that nearly all of a city is private land, that's hard to avoid.

This is an opportunity for news! Seize it! It's a lot more interesting than yammering on about Stormy Daniels in any case.

It's a chance to interview someone who knows the area well. Interview some fire dudes. Look at some maps. Think about the difficulty/expense in the whole deal, dealing with the planning commission, if Deer Creek actually is private land, the laws concerning whacking away at a lot of trees next to a creek, what'll happen to you when the trail people get wind of any plan like that.

Carpe diem!

fish

Posted by: ***M*** | 14 November 2018 at 11:46 AM


Hmm……I figured you would be crowing about that other news item, after all it's really a win/win for you, cheap yard care/house work/restaurant help and the only issue that shows any hope at chipping away at the presidents base.

https://fox5sandiego.com/2018/11/13/video-shows-group-climbing-on-border-fence/


I already posts about the dead and dying trees….


Yes….dugsKKKi you already posts about the deads and dyings trees. Thanks yous fors thes wells crafteds sentences!


…..and I do especially enjoy that the link you posted only serves to reinforce my comment, not to mention Georges post, and undermine yours! Pure dugsKKKi in action!


From the link!

"Doing all this takes money, and bringing down fire risks will take years. Politically, it’s easier to muster the resources to put out a fire than it is to prevent one, especially when groups like the timber industry and environmental activists are diametrically opposed on certain kinds of management techniques, like forest thinning. That means states and the federal government will face a slog of litigation and red tape as they try to bring fire risks down."

Not much Trumpian neglect here nitwit! Sounds just like what I said!


"California is taking some steps to systematically reduce fire hazards. The state legislature on Friday passed a $1 billion fire risk reduction package. It give grants over five years to communities to cut fuel breaks, thin flammable brush, and educate firefighters. The bill also relaxes rules on logging to make it easier to get to some of the most flammable trees."

Hmmmmm……relaxes rules…….where has that been suggested.

George Rebane

M 144pm - Sure, but anyone who has studied the progress of wildfires in the US knows that once Smokey was commissioned and better fire fighting technologies became available, then fire suppression became the main cause, without a nearby second, of fuel build-ups that gave rise to disastrous fires. The next tranche of idiots to come along on this avenue were the econuts who are now litigiously dominant in suppressing all the various modes of keeping our forests healthy and usable by the public.

Paul Emery

George

What ideas do you have for dealing with the fuel buildup in the Deer Creek Canyon?

Paul Emery

Scenes

KVMR along with Yubanet have sponsored four town hall meetings at the Nevada theater in the past two years on fire related issues. We're currently working on another one with Yubanet topic being "It can happen here" possible early Dec.

scenes

"KVMR along with Yubanet have sponsored four town hall meetings at the Nevada theater in the past two years on fire related issues."

and what exactly has that accomplished?

George Rebane

PualE 331pm - Don't know what kind of fuels have built up there. But using state funds set aside for clearing highly flammable corridors and canyon 'pipes' would be proper. You always have to recall that this land and its vegetation have evolved to burn regularly. Such evolution took no account of human habitation the risks for which we who live here should accept responsibility. Is it fair and equitable to ask flatlanders to pay for reducing mountain forest fuel loads, or inlanders to pay for hurricane property damage for those living at the beach and surge zones? I don't think so.

Paul Emery

Hard to say Scenes. We had one specifically about the South Yuba Canyon and it led to an awareness between the agencies involved that they needed to work together. They still meet regularly on the topic.

Paul Emery

Very Libertarian viewpoint on the matter George. So you don't believe California should pay through taxes for this years hurricane damage in Florida or the Carolina's?

Todd Juvinall

Ah the land of a thousand meetings accomplishing nothing. The American way.

Paul Emery

What have you done about the problem Todd?

***M***

,,,brownlumpfisherman,,,so petty,,,for an HTML king!!!

***M***

,,,read it and weep boys,,,

"'Current science shows that it is weather, and therefore climate change, that overwhelmingly determines how fires behave and spread, not forest density. The most heavily-logged areas burn more intensely, not less, contrary to the claims of the Trump administration."'

https://www.sacbee.com/opinion/op-ed/soapbox/article218303180.html

Todd Juvinall

What have you done about the problem Paul Emery? All those dead people want to know.

Bill Tozer

KVMR along with Yubanet have sponsored four town hall meetings at the Nevada theater in the past two years on fire related issues."
and what exactly has that accomplished?
Posted by: scenes | 14 November 2018 at 03:44 PM

Hmm. Seems to me the resident expert on fire land issues is the one who has sponsored 4 townhall meetings, no doubt having the Fire Safe Council on board...and he is asking George questions, lol.

Seems to me that if I bought an abode next to hundreds of acres of raw land that has been previously logged, I knew full well what I was buying. Let the buyer beware.

Todd Juvinall

"M" ypi really have no clue. Are you aware a million acres in Idaho's Panhandle burned around the turn of the last century. Well before autos.

***M***

,,,Sad Todd,,,you are delusional,,,what are you talking about,,,so large fires have happened in the past,,,yeah so what?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Fire_of_1910

Paul Emery

KVMR has been the beacon of local fire news by working with Yubanet to get the information out when a fire hits and what people should do to be safe. We go live taking phone calls and are the Emergency Broadcast Station in our ares since we have an actual person on the air 24 hours a day That's just a start. What have you done Todd?

Don Bessee

The pony tail of ignorance @ 525 - Then why didn't you learn anything at those 4 KVMR meetings if they were so great?

;-)

Paul Emery

I learned lot Don. Were you there or do you know everything?

Todd Juvinall

Paul Emery, what have you done that is tangible to the people of the community? Nothing. Just yapping.

"M", you truly are a dense buffoon. You and your ilk say man made climate change is the reason for these fires and I give you one example of a huge fire way before man was sending carbon into the atmosphere. Now, repeat after me, I "M" am a moron.

Don Bessee

They why are you unable to have a real discussion on the issue and ask typically dense pony tail of ignorance questions @554? Its seems for you it was just virtue signaling about the 4 meetings as if they give you cred.


;-)

Todd Juvinall

I can see all those lefty eco warriors sitting in their chairs around a eight-seat table yapping about the fires. None have a clue about the cause or solution but they sure like their pepperoni pizza Paul Emery brought.

Paul Emery

Todd

The meetings were at the Nevada Theatre and broadcast live over KVMR and NCTV. there were media representatives from KVMR, the Union, Yubanet and KNCO.

All local fire agencies were on the panels as well as representatives from the Sheriffs Dept, State Parks, BLM, Tahoe Forrest, SYRCL and others.

Why wern't you there?

Bill Tozer

And Sierra Pacific is a green company and is selling for a profit all those carbon credits the company received for not logging redwoods. :)
————
Let’s stand back. It’s not one size fits all. Depends where you live. If you live in Southern Cal, you are just going to have wildfires in those mountains no matter what. The chemise, the chaparral brush are made to go 9 months easy without moisture. Small round leaves to minimize evaporation, sap is flammable grease, hot ass summers, and all one can do is create a buffer zone around your home.

The tragic Paradise Fire still now raging raced toward that town over a path that burned ten years ago. Unless you can stop those winds blowing from Great Basin over the mountains and heading west across the woodlands, if will happen again. The reason it’s called oak woodlands is because previous fires over the years have burned up all the underbrush and only the oaks survive. And the grass likes the light. Don’t drop a match.

Ok, the conifer forests. Thin them? Are you nuts?? Never happen. Just drive up to Sierra City on 49, to the summit up 80 or 20, or up to Bowman or Jackson Meadows, and look at all those hills and distant mountains and steep slopes and...take it all in. Then get a map of the Sierras and draw a pencil thin line on the map of what you just viewed on a nice drive. Look how tiny that pencil mark is on that big map. Think NID covers 400,000 acres from the top of the watersheds to where it leaves our area.

How the hay are you going to thin or do control burn hundreds of thousands of acres or even 50,000 acres? You are talking 100’s of thousands of men and equipment on slopes and it what would like what an old miner wrote. From his highpoint, he saw in the distance a side of a mountain covered with what looked like ants. Upon further viewing he realized it was men, thousands of them. Miners. That’s what you need. It’s labor intensive and slow and expensive.

So, what can we do? Well, we got those bombers stationed here. CDF sees smoke and they hit it with everything they got as fast and hard as they can to knock that baby out before it becomes uncontrollable. Oh course, weather permitting. Clear along roads, create defensivable spaces around your home, store cans of gas in safe place....that’s all one can do. Targeted areas and fire breaks. Removing underbrush if you got trees to remove the fire ladder. You don’t want one to jump into the crowns of pines. Then it jumps.

Knew an elderly lady maybe 20 years ago who was asked for advice by Nevada City or someone group about the stretch of land from around the bottom of Cement Hill, up 49 almost to the old Rainbow Market across from the Willow. Making a trail or something or maybe just a fire hazard. She told the group to remove the underbrush, limb up some branches, that kind of thing. Well, that advice caused quite the stir amoung the tree hugging nature loving committee she was talking to. Despite some conflicted members of the Nevada City Committee, they took her advice. Wasn’t 6 months later a fire came right through there and trees were still standing and everything was fine. When my elderly friend was examining the area with the Committe (who had asked her to for advice on replanting or assessment, she remarked how wonderful it was how the fire came through and ne’er got up into the trees and passed through leaving little damage. Perfect. A banana head committee member lady who was the most vocal critic of cutting anything.... shot darts through her eyes at my friend for her remarking the plan worked.ROFLMAO.

Remember that crazy CA lib proposition defining ‘clear cut’ as anything over one brush per 5 acres., lol. Let’s see your logging plan, homeowner! Beg for mercy, worm.

The Forest Service screwed up in the 40’s and 50’s by allowing logging on steeper slopes. Erorision problems, big no no. And clear cutting ain’t nice and neither are piles of slash. The tree huggers stopped a lot of logging, even though we live in an age of best practices. Enough finger pointing to go around on everybody

Don Bessee

Why wern't you there? Asks the pony tail of ignorance.

Why weren't you at all of the meetings this year in many venues farther than the next building! LOL

;-)

Bill Tozer

Don @ 7:16 pm

It’s sounds like he was there, but either not taking notes or not being being all there.
He comes here because he is not all there.
Boy, thinning out brush on his neighbor’s property and dragging all those pieces up the hill and burning it on his property is a lot of work. Can’t burn on land you don’t live on without a different permit.
30 feet deep should do it. Write the property owner a letter. Propablty say, “Sure, you can have all the brush you want to cut.” Start with the dead stuff....and posion oak. :)

Rule of thumb: Flame from coyote Bush or deer brush is twice the height of the plant. You can cut and burn manzanita on the spot All these Native brushes are a pain in the back, legs, and arms to drag to a burn area, not to mention cutting drag trails and clearings. Better start now and get er done before burn permits are pulled around the first of June. Those babies burn hot....make sure no coals roll down the hill. Sweat equity.

Yes, it’s a danger to our pubic safety! Chop chop. I got inspected and the CDF guys were so happy they wrote “Great Job” on the form copy. . They were tickled pink and I left many fine specimens of native plants and trees, spaced appropriately. Start with the dead ones, then cut out dead branches on live ones, then every third one, maybe every other one. Make it look natural. Make it an artistic masterpiece!

My legs hurt just thinking about it. Since I am here:

https://m.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.217983685002343/1476315702502462/?type=3&source=48

Todd Juvinall

Hey if I was there I might have brought up the utter waste of money and time that requiring interior sprinklers cost to save a house from a wildfire. But that and all the other rules Post-Tahoe fire rules and building codes was put together by the same band of idiots.

Bill Tozer

Moi @ 8:13. Oh yeah. Don’t disturb the soil. There is a natural compaction you don’t want to mess with. Afterall, you will be looking at it, nobody else. Protect the watershed!

Russ

A February report by the Little Hoover Commission, the State Oversight Committee for the State of California, found that CA has “ignored the gathering underbrush and dead trees in their forests for 100 years by underfunding any systematic removal of it.” As the Committee put it, these forest fires probably nullified California’s “hard-fought carbon reductions.”

One can only wonder what would have happened if California had spent as money on forest management as they spent electric vehicles?

The WSJ points out that the State Of California has spent 10 times more on electric vehicles than on controlled forest fires and underbrush removal, $335 million to $30 million, in the last fiscal year.

Bill Tozer

Jerry Brown’s veto:

“California Gov. Jerry Brown’s decision to veto a 2016 bipartisan bill aimed at mitigating wildfire risks from power lines and utility equipment has become the focus of critics as fires rage across the state.

“Wildfires have scorched more than 221,000 acres across California since Thursday, and Brown’s critics are pointing to the two-year-old veto as news reports suggest power lines may have sparked the deadliest wildfire in California’s history.

“He has done nothing to harden those assets,” state Sen. John Moorlach, a Republican, told The Daily Caller News Foundation.”

https://dailycaller.com/2018/11/13/california-jerry-brown-wildfire/?fbclid=IwAR0P3mOfaRd4UrtWij335ydjUE8rb_AmpG95YdChS7QD0xm21arxq7Gk5hA

And they run CA from the cities. We are screwed.

Walt

So the LIBS are going to tour the fire zone. All they will see is future revenue in the form of studies, fees stacked on top of fees and inflated permit costs. Then of course, PLENTY of new regulations the get to pass that the people wanting to rebuild will have to choke on. If getting raped by the fire wasn't bad enough, the LIB politicians get a turn.

Bill Tozer

May I propose ? It’s been right under our noses this whole time.

“The laws of the past 45 years have not only failed to protect the forest environment, they have done immeasurable harm to our forests,” said Republican Rep. Tom McClintock, who represents a northeastern district in California, in a congressional hearing. “Time and again, we see vivid boundaries between the young, healthy, growing forests managed by state, local, and private landholders, and the choked, dying, or burned federal forests.”

“According to a Reason Foundation study, another flaw in forest management is a systematic reduction in timber removal. This began in 1990 when the spotted owl was listed as threatened under the Endangered Species Act. In response, the Forest Service placed restrictions on timber harvests. Additionally, President Bill Clinton introduced a rule that restricted the construction of new roads on 49 million acres of national forest. This limited the ability of the Forest Service from thinning trees. In 1993, 1,797,574 acres of wildlands burned, but in 2017 this number jumped to 10,026,086 acres.”

http://thefederalist.com/2018/11/16/misguided-environmentalism-blame-californias-wildfires/

Bill Tozer

Little Hoover Comission on Wildfires, 2018.

However, there may be more truth to Trump’s tweet than many of his critics care to admit. The Democrat-led Little Hoover Commission is an independent state oversight agency that released a report earlier this year on wildfire destruction and forest management practices that seemed to affirm Trump’s sentiments.

Former Democratic representative and deputy district attorney Pedro Nava, who is currently the commission’s chairman, addressed California’s governor and the legislature with an open letter that opens the February report. The first sentence of this letter states: “A century of mismanaging Sierra Nevada forests has brought an unprecedented environmental catastrophe that impacts all Californians.”

After describing the dilapidated state of the Sierra Nevada forests, and providing examples of the “imminent crisis,” Nava suggested “investing upfront to create healthier forests” in an effort to curb “the spiraling costs of state firefighting.” After further description of the economic costs incurred in the wake of wildfires, Nava concluded that “all these are symptoms of a larger problem of forest mismanagement and neglect.”

The report also blames “poor management policies that interrupted the natural and historical cycle of fire” as a cause that has “left forests vulnerable to disease, insects, catastrophic fire and drought.”

http://thefederalist.com/2018/11/16/democrats-attacked-president-trump-saying-exactly-democrats-said-california-fires/

***M***

,,,In the interview taped Friday and scheduled for broadcast on "Fox News Sunday," Trump said he was surprised to see images of firefighters removing dried brush near a fire, adding, "This should have been all raked out.",,,

I guess that makes sense coing from somebody whose idea of nature is a golf course

Get out there and start raking!!!!

George Rebane

Re M 905am - Another attempted bon mot by one our resident progressives. The gentleman is nothing if not a gift that keeps on giving.

Todd Juvinall

I give "M" and his ilk all the credit for these fires. I did my best over the years at a countless hearing to bring some common sense to the stupid rules of the Tahoe and others but I lost out to the Sierra Club MAchine of death.

Todd Juvinall

Trump arrives at Beale at 12:45

***M***

,,,hey,,,are you guys posting mobile in your MAGA hats from Hammonton Smartsville Rd.???

***M***

You should be home ‘’’raking’’’!!!

fish

Posted by: ***M*** | 17 November 2018 at 09:52 AM

You should be home ‘’’raking’’’!!!

Indeed...we should! After all unlike you, nobody else here is counting on starvation wage "Caravan Labor"!

***M***

,,,looking forward to the lastest labor pool climbing the Great Wall of Trump as we speak!!!

George Boardman

First Trump gets rained out in France, now this:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-too-busy-on-calls-veterans-day_us_5bef29e7e4b0b84243e25212

That's the kind of support the military needs.

fish

Posted by: ***M*** | 17 November 2018 at 10:00 AM


I have no doubt......it's always the last "progressive" you expect to pine for an endless stream of poor brown stoop labor!

Walt

If historical flight paths are in play, AF1 should be coming in over Penn Valley May have to dig out the good camera for this one.
If so, AF1 will dump it's sewer tanks right over the resident ridge rat's place.

Todd Juvinall

Oh Noarman, if you think anyone here thinks the HuffPo is anything but fake news then I have a bridge. You libs are always negative. My goodness Trump comes here and all you do is send your crap out. Go sit in your outhouse and contemplate both your navels.

Todd Juvinall

Walt get some pics! And "M" start earlier with the depends.

'''M'''

,,,Walter is here??? I thought he loaded up the ditch witch and scoped AR-10 and was trucking down I-5 to the southern border to do battle with the ""browns""

fish

Posted by: '''M''' | 17 November 2018 at 11:29 AM

Please tell me that you're restricting your exploitation of these poor souls to cheap yard and house work! You're not using them for "other" services are you dugsKKKi?

George Boardman

Todd, your inability to comprehend what you read is almost beyond comprehension. The HuffPost article is based on an interview Trump did with Chris Wallace that Fox News will broadcast. Watch the interview and listen to Trump's lame excuse.

Todd Juvinall

That is their interpretation. I am amazed that you, a self-proclaimed smarty pants, can't discern between what is said and what is reported. Besides, the interview is not broadcast until tomorrow. I suggest you take some ginko biloba and get back to the thread.

George Boardman

Todd, once again you fail to comprehend. The HuffPost article is based on a partial transcript given to reporters by Fox News. In fact, the relevant quote is reproduced in HuffPost article.

You can't even comprehend simple, basic information, let alone anything complex.

Todd Juvinall

Sorry Boardman but I have more intelligence in my little finger than you in your whole bloated body.

Todd Juvinall

And your inability to discern fake news from that which is real is breathtaking.

Todd Juvinall

George Boardman | 17 November 2018 at 10:04 AM

Watched the interview this morning with Wallace and Trump said it was not the rain as you and your fake news alleged that kept him from the cemetery. It was the fog and the Secret Service told him to stay put. So once again you lie and try and fool the people with your hate. He said he regretted not attending here when he returned. I accept his apology. You should try it sometime.

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Your Information

(Name is required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)