Mending Wall (updated 12jan19)

Robert Frost

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,

That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,

And spills the upper boulders in the sun;

And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.

The work of hunters is another thing:

I have come after them and made repair

Where they have left not one stone on a stone,

But they would have the rabbit out of hiding,

To please the yelping dogs. The gaps I mean,

No one has seen them made or heard them made,

But at spring mending-time we find them there.

I let my neighbour know beyond the hill;

And on a day we meet to walk the line

And set the wall between us once again.

We keep the wall between us as we go.

To each the boulders that have fallen to each.

And some are loaves and some so nearly balls

We have to use a spell to make them balance:

"Stay where you are until our backs are turned!"

We wear our fingers rough with handling them.

Oh, just another kind of out-door game,

One on a side. It comes to little more:

There where it is we do not need the wall:

He is all pine and I am apple orchard.

My apple trees will never get across

And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him.

He only says, "Good fences make good neighbours."

Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder

If I could put a notion in his head:

"Why do they make good neighbours? Isn't it

Where there are cows? But here there are no cows.

Before I built a wall I'd ask to know

What I was walling in or walling out,

And to whom I was like to give offence.

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,

That wants it down." I could say "Elves" to him,

But it's not elves exactly, and I'd rather

He said it for himself. I see him there

Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top

In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed.

He moves in darkness as it seems to me,

Not of woods only and the shade of trees.

He will not go behind his father's saying,

And he likes having thought of it so well

He says again, "Good fences make good neighbours."

 

[12jan19 gjr update] From some of the comments below it appears that a word of clarification is required, not only about Frost’s poem but also walls, fences, and other things that demark and control access.  Such constructs are nothing more than the existential and visible attributes of contracts that define property rights within a society.  These transmit the unambiguous message that this side belongs to me, and the other side belongs to someone else; and I don’t want someone from the other side coming unbeknownst to me onto my property from where I have constructed my wall/fence or any other kind of barrier.  For access to my property at certain locations I have provided gates, the states of which I can control, and therefore control access to my property.

People who don’t share the value of such rights, and perhaps feel that these delineated things should be owned in common, or at least be shared unhindered, will oppose physical barriers that unambiguously define ownership and provide for non-owner access only at the pleasure of the owner.

Today such values are very much the topic of hot debate between ideologically estranged peoples and nations.  Conservatives and libertarians are very much proponents of property rights and such expression of these rights.  They believe that property (and any asset of value) that is owned by everyone is owned by no one, and treated as such.  (cf. Garrett Hardin's 'Tragedy of the Commons')  Everywhere that property is ‘owned by the people’, it is actually owned by their government which visibly deports itself as owner.  The definition of ownership is straightforward – you own something only to the extent that you can dispose of it as you will.  The thinking person immediately understands that ownership is not a simple ‘you own it, or you don’t’.  Instead, they know that ownership is very much nuanced, and that anything owned can also be taken insidiously and stage wise from the weaker by the stronger.  In the US we have seen such erosion of ownership occur with many things, including real property and firearms.  In an autocracy (which we are fast becoming) such subtle transfers of ownership are replaced by more direct and unambiguous methods.

(In understanding ownership, be careful not to confuse that notion with the responsibility for and/or accountability for the disposition of said property by its de juris owner or any third party.)

Comments

[Bill Tozer]

A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel.—-Robert Frost

Being an open spaces kind of guy, I don’t relish looking at a wall, nor even city lights. But, I am a pragmatist when all else fails. I prefer a Wall was not necessary. But a Wall is necessary, as my neighbors’s fences are necessary to keep keep his livestock safe from the predators without. Conversely, my fences keep my dogs from trespassing upon another’s property and going after his livestock. There is a harmony to it. Good fences indeed make good neighbors, be it physical barriers or setting boundaries with others who cross certain lines at home, at work, and at play.

I find it peculiar that the Lefties love to point to Reagen’s onset of late life dementia as a vehicle to savage his policies, character, and mental fitness while he was in office, yet the same Lefties always point to Reagen’s farewell address ‘A Shining City on the Hill’ to use as fuel for their political agenda. Lest we forget, the Shining City on the Hill had walls and doors. Please enter through the doors if you want to get inside the walls.

“[I]n my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here.”

Back to Frost’s poem, the Dems have yet to state why the Wall is immoral. Saying “I don’t like walls” is not good enough. Convince me.

http://thefederalist.com/2019/01/08/why-is-a-border-wall-immoral/

[Tricky McClean]

LOL. One news outlet called Trumply’s TV address a “wet fart.” Ouch. What struck most was Stephen Miller’s obsession with torture and killing, i.e. hammers and dismemberment. Which brought to mind...if only there’d been a concrete/steel slat/beaded curtain wall around the Saudi Embassy in Turkey, Khashoggi would have been prevented his bone saw massacre. LOL.

[fish]

Posted by: Tricky McClean | 08 January 2019 at 09:19 PM

Hmmmm.......drunkblogging again Michael?

[Todd Juvinall]

Tom Sullivan is doing the speeches of Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton and Chuck Schumer. All making hay about how we have to stop illegal aliens and build a wall. You cannot make this stuff up.

[Tricky McClean]

Did I troll me a fish?

Early to bed, early to rise
Fish all day, tell big lies!

[fish]

Posted by: Tricky McClean | 09 January 2019 at 03:12 PM

So that's a "yes" then! OK….good to know!

[Tricky McClean]

Good to know what? That you’re a state employee who lives in Folsom, a barky lapdog eating at the delicious taxpayer-funded buffet? Look, we get that you’re simpatico with Ben Emery re. your dualing colonic sympathies. As you should, and I hope and pray that you both are doin well post therapy.
But for God’s sake man, get a spine when it comes to your personal convictions! Quit your state job if you hate the gov’t tit so very much.

[fish]

Posted by: Tricky McClean | 09 January 2019 at 07:54 PM

Hi Michael…..!

Ya know this is something that I've wrestled with. If you could somehow assure me that the position would go away entirely I would seriously consider punching out! As it stands now though I might as well receive the money instead of some other schmoe who thinks he's saving the world. I like to think you're getting a reasonable return on your dollar…..I was demoted once for complaining that what we were doing (rather , the way we were doing it) was ridiculous and cost far too much time and money! This….needless to say was not well received. Ironically my internal demotion placed me in a new role where the very thing I was chastised for suggesting was done routinely. As you can well imagine I found this endlessly amusing.

How's office networking these days……still rewarding I trust?

[Tricky McClean]

Not Michael (??) but anyway...
This taxpayer appreciates your oversight. Anything you can do to stifle Leviathan is all to the good 🧡

[fish]

Posted by: Tricky McClean | 09 January 2019 at 09:03 PM

…and why the hate for my rapprochement with Ben? No credit for personal growth over a shared malady……how very unprogressive of you! I was a dick to Ben when he was sick (Didn't know it until pretty late in the game though)….and he didn't deserve it it quite so much!

Not like you other assholes deserve it ;-) ! Now….on with the game!

[Bill Tozer]

Naked link

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156202153723507&set=gm.370226490377745&type=3&theater

[Robert Cross]

NBC is showing a photo it received via the FIA showing the prototype of trump's steel slat wall after testing. Apparently it can be easily cut through with a portable saw. A Homeland Security spokesperson said the wall isn't designed to be impenetrable but to make it difficult to dig under or cut through so that agents have time to respond if someone is trying to breach the wall.

Now that's a Big Bang for our tax buck. If the desert doesn't kill them this wall will slow them down enough until they are caught. It would have to be strictly a daylight operation as the sparks would give them away at night, especially two hundred miles from nowhere. Trump claims that particular prototype was designed by previous administrations..Since no previous living President has expressed any support for trump's wall, what-so-ever, it is highly doubtful that the prototype in question was built or designed by anyone outside the trump administration. One feeble excuse (lie) after another seems to be the pattern of this administration.

[fish]

Posted by: Robert Cross | 10 January 2019 at 04:05 PM

Trump claims that particular prototype was designed by previous administrations..Since no previous living President has expressed any support for trump's wall, what-so-ever, it is highly doubtful that the prototype in question was built or designed by anyone outside the trump administration. One feeble excuse (lie) after another seems to be the pattern of this administration.

Your bottomless stupidity gives me great joy……….

Please note (in the photo at the link provided) a section of existing wall funded, built, and lauded by politicians both democrat and republican before this whole kerfuffle started! Please note also how remarkably similar it is to the section of cut fence that you're fingering yourself over! It's not Trumps….somebody else was president when this and miles like it went up! Was it Obama?? Bush?? Clinton?? Who knows! What is important is that you're a catastrophic idiot ….greater even than our own Punchy…..and I don't say that lightly!

https://clayhiggins.house.gov/media/press-releases/congressman-higgins-votes-border-wall-funding

What's this….another photo of fence designed and installed before the current administration took office. This is probably Obama Fence…..why do I say that….CUZ THERE'S A GUY STANDING ON IT.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/08/us/politics/trump-border-wall-terrorists.html

Bobby…..can I call you bobby……do humanity a favor and never reproduce!

[Walt]

Thanks Jim!
https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/10/gop-roast-jim-acosta-walls-work/
"CNN’s Jim Acosta traveled to the US-Mexico border in McAllen Texas and ended up making a great case for border security — particularly in the form of a physical barrier or wall."

And LIBS are saying,,
" Jim...... You had one job.. ONE!!! And you had to go 'F' that up."

[Steven Frisch]

"............like an old-stone savage armed.

He moves in darkness as it seems to me,

Not of woods only and the shade of trees.

He will not go behind his father's saying."

Um, you do realize that in the eyes of the poems progressive protagonist the wall is not a good thing, right?

[Don Bessee]

Of course everyone realizes that only you enlightend socialists understand English, NOT! A gift for you -

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/01/10/democrats-crack-on-the-wall/

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/01/10/lindsey-graham-it-is-time-for-president-trump-to-use-emergency-powers-for-wall/

;-)

[Robert Cross]

little fishy 4:39-- I didn't know your worked for the state.. how ironic.. you blew it out your ass...sucked in by fake news.. again. The photos you posted are from existing wall and not the prototype pictured here:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/new-photo-shows-steel-trump-border-wall-prototype-can-be-cut-through-with-common-saw_us_5c37ae9ee4b05cb31c40c8f4

Nice try though.. maybe if you yell and whine long enough and loud enough someone might listen.

too late on reproduction and both my kids have advanced college degrees..unlike your own high school and you like beer mentality.

[Don Bessee]

That sounds like the crossed one likes that prototype botox Nancy likes too, no wonder. There were many other better prototypes.

;-)

[Biiill Tozer]

But, but, but what about those hordes of dishonest folks that overstay their Visas? The Wall not stop them!! Yeah, but at least we know who they are and have been pre-screened and identified. Not so with illegals sneaking into our country like burglars in the night and we do not even know who they are or anything about them.

Under Title 8, Section 1182 of federal law, “aliens” who pose risks to the wellbeing of others are generally “ineligible to receive visas and ineligible to be admitted to the United States.” This includes, for example, foreigners who:

have been convicted of or admit to committing certain crimes “that involve moral turpitude, whether under U.S. law or foreign law…”
have “a communicable disease of public health significance.”
are drug abusers or addicts.
have physical or mental disorders that “may” endanger “the property, safety, or welfare” of themselves or others.
are “likely … at any time after admission, to become primarily dependent on the U.S. Government (federal, state, or local) for subsistence.”
do not “make a credible showing” that “all” of the activities they will engage in “while in the United States are consistent” with their visa applications.
have “inadequate documentation” to prove that they meet the criteria above or other requirements of federal law.

https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/article/visa-overstays-dont-negate-benefits-border-barriers

[Tricky McClean]

Everything in the beginning is the same.
Clouds let us look at the sun.

Words let us watch a man about to be killed.
The eye-hollows of his skull see home.

When they stone him,
he knows what a stone is—each word, a stone:

The hole of his nose
as dark as the door I pass through.

I wander the halls numerously.
He’s no longer my grandfather in weight.

Among old bodies piled high, they aim.
Living can tranquilize you.

[Walt]

WOW! using Oakland rap lyrics now.

[***M***]

,,,Walt,,,how are your relatives in Paradise who lost their homes doing??? Are they all for Trump’s plan to pull the Emergency money from the fire victms so he can build his little vanity wall???
Trump has created an emergencyv in his own mind over a vanity wall that had been given bipartisan support back in December - and he rejected it because Bimbo Limbaugh and Horse Face Coulter told him to - so he plans to screw your relatives!!!

[fish]

Posted by: ***M*** | 11 January 2019 at 07:46 AM

How many dugsKKKi?

[***M***]

,,,Fish,,,asked and answered,,,do you mean how many home grown Americans get killed on any Sunday in Chicago by other home grown Americans???

No emergency there! Let’s BTW (((build the wall))) so trumpski doesn’t get butthurt!!!

[fish]

Posted by: ***M*** | 11 January 2019 at 09:03 AM

,,,Fish,,,asked and answered,,,

No dugsKKKi....you gave me the patented politicians non-answer answer.....something to the effect of ......"err....um well as many who are qualified ...err um should be admitted.....err.....um...HArrumph!

No you greasy little weasel.......what number of poor brown under the table gardener/housekeeper/roofer types is sufficient for you to feel "just so good enough about your self! This of course doesn't include the 400 million Africans Borlaugs Revenge) getting ready to swarm into Europe who will eventually need to spillover into the US.

How many dugsKKKi? A number! .......surely that's not so difficult for a deep thinker like yourself?

[Todd Juvinall]

Looks like another nutball is posting a "impeachment" article in the Union. And she is the wife of Dicie Sciaroni. Why she does not use her married name tells us all we need to know about the liberal unhinged.

[fish]

How many dugsKKKi?

[***M***]

,,,sad Fishy,,,and your magic number is??? Remember to give me an exact figure!!!

[fish]

Posted by: ***M*** | 11 January 2019 at 11:10 AM

.....I knew you didn't have it in you.

[***M***]

,,,Fish,,,you sad little idiot,,,there is no magic number,,,the sooner you realize that the better you will sleep.

[Todd Juvinall]

I think I saw "M" running through the streets of Paris. Macron is looking for you.

https://www.facebook.com/UncleSamsNation/videos/480605932463922/?t=56

[Don Bessee]

Is anyone surprised?

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/424876-san-diego-tv-station-cnn-declined-our-local-view-because-of-reports-on-wall

;-)

[Don Bessee]

Oh but the kids -

https://www.foxnews.com/us/suspected-ms-13-members-charged-in-bloody-new-york-brawl-were-released-from-ice-custody-by-federal-judges-before-attack-officials-say

;-)

[fish]

Posted by: ***M*** | 11 January 2019 at 11:27 AM

,,,there is no magic number,,,

Oh dugsKKKi......such cowardice....such mendacity!

There's always a magic number.......350 ppm CO2........70% Income tax.......the dollar amount of the fine you received for pirating a childs movie!

........always, always a magic number!

[fish]

Posted by: ***M*** | 11 January 2019 at 11:27 AM

C'mon......if you can't do it for me......and you can't do it for bigger government......do it for Scotland!

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: Don Bessee | 10 January 2019 at 06:46 PM

Just pointing out Don that even one of the most recited and commonly interpreted poems in American literary history is misunderstood by those who move in darkness.

[George Rebane]

You missed it again Steve. Mending Wall recounts a debate about the utility of walls between two neighbors told by one who sees little utility in them. In it Frost presents no definitive conclusion as to which notion is correct. But those who have lived on acreage and/or farms know well the function and utility of well-maintained fences. That might not be apparent from your alabaster perch.

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: George Rebane | 12 January 2019 at 10:41 AM

Not just my "alabaster perch" George, but every literary critic, English professor and experienced reader for more than 100 years.

Bt I do understand that in the quest to claim supremacy it is always necessary to redefine culture to your advantage. Night is day; war is peace; Frost is vague.

I shudder to think of what you would do with Nietzsche.

[Gregory]

Steven Frisch, we all shudder to think of what you would do with Nietzsche, and everyone defines culture to their advantage, do they not?

“What is patriotism but the love of the food one ate as a child?”-Lin Yutang

[Don Bessee]

More narrative fails -

Darby also spoke about social media postings by O’Rourke who continually claims that the whole border is safe.

“Well there are some places along the border that are safe like El Paso,” Darby stated. “They are safe because there is a wall, there is already a steel barrier there. In contrast. in Ciudad Juarez, the Mexican side of the El Paso- Juarez Metropolitan Area … it is one of the most violent places on earth. If you look at the murder rates since 2009 there, it’s insane”
In their effort to portray the border as a safe region, the politician and the CNN journalist overlook the fact that the border region is not only the U.S. side but also the Mexican side of the border. These regions are home to some of the most violent cities in the world.

“For them to intentionally parse their words in a way to not have to mention the violence, death, and depravity that is happening within a kilometer from there — it is propaganda,” Darby said. “It is a Potemkin village they are setting up, it is dishonest, and it further silences the communities in Mexico. It further silences everything the migrants go through to get here, it further silences the more than 50,000 family members of the victims the cartels have disappeared. It further silences the further silences the approximately 200,000 who have been killed by the cartels in Mexico. It is not ok that they are doing this, it is propaganda. “

One of the most alarming trends in the way national news reported border issues dealt with the statement by U.S. President Donald Trump that one in three women were sexually assaulted in their journey to the border.

https://www.breitbart.com/border/2019/01/12/brandon-darby-propaganda-about-border-in-play-mostly-from-mainstream-media/

;-)

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: Gregory | 12 January 2019 at 12:18 PM

If one's language is doublespeak then yes, everyone defines culture to their advantage, if they are comfortable with a world with no objective truth.

Fortunately the is another appropriate Lin Yutang quote: "When small men begin to cast big shadows, it means that the sun is about to set."

[Steven Frisch]

Of course reading George's "Update" to the Mending Wall post I am compelled to post a definition:

Metaphor: : a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy between them (as in drowning in money)
broadly : figurative language

[Steven Frisch]

"I see him there
Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top
In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed."

[Bill Tozer]

Ah, the subjective interpretation of poetry and how it evokes various responses.

“There where it is we do not need the wall:
He is all pine and I am apple orchard.
My apple trees will never get across
And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him.”

Oh, if only there was no need for walls, if only each would stay on their own side. If only the apple trees will never get across and eat the cones under his pines.....if only. And who can fathom the deeds done in darkness?

“The work of hunters is another thing:
I have come after them and made repair
Where they have left not one stone on a stone,
But they would have the rabbit out of hiding,
To please the yelping dogs. The gaps I mean,
No one has seen them made or heard them made,”

Anyway, I do wonder who reads such works today. Sure, I had to stand up and recite works of Emily Dickerson (I heard a fly buzz when died) and Frost (whose woods these are I think I know.....But I have promises to keep. And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep) in 7th grade as required by the teacher. And those long dry works such as Mobey Dick or The Last of the Mohicans. I was glad to find the short sentences of Steinbeck, Jack London, and warped mind of Poe as a refreshing break in middle school. I doubt young people today are required to read such works in 7th or 8th grade....at a non union school no less. That is ancient history.

Off topic of walls, property lines, points of demarcation, respect for property rights and other’s property, but interesting link.

"This is the forest primeval. The murmuring pines and the hemlocks,
Bearded with moss, and in garments green, indistinct in the twilight,
Stand like Druids of eld, with voices sad and prophetic,
Stand like harpers hoar, with beards that rest on their bosoms.
Loud from its rocky caverns, the deep-voiced neighboring ocean
Speaks, and in accents disconsolate answers the wail of the forest."

Naturally, some might look at the second selection [above] and say, “Good grief! How do you expect a child to understand that?!?”

But that’s the whole point. Unless we give our students challenging material to dissect, process, and study, how can we expect them to break out of the current poor proficiency ratings and advance beyond a basic reading level?

https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/blog/middle-school-reading-lists-100-years-ago-vs-today

[Gregory]

"If one's language is doublespeak then yes, everyone defines culture to their advantage, if they are comfortable with a world with no objective truth."
-Frisch 236pm

Wow. Steve, you are certainly a native doublespeak speaker. What a strawman argument.

[Steven Frisch]

If "...everyone defines culture to their advantage.." is not doublespeak then nothing is doublespeak Gregory.

You are the master.

[Tricky McClean]

I fear my Thisbe’s promise is forgot!—
And thou, O Wall, O sweet, O lovely Wall,
That stand’st between her father’s ground and mine.
170Thou Wall, O Wall, O sweet and lovely Wall,
Show me thy chink to blink through with mine eyne!
I’m afraid my Thisbe has forgotten her promise!—And you, oh Wall, oh sweet, oh lovely Wall, you stand between her father’s property and mine, you Wall, oh Wall, oh sweet and lovely Wall. Show me your hole to stick my eye up against!
WALL HOLDS UP FINGERS AS CHINK
WALL HOLDS UP TWO FINGERS
Thanks, courteous Wall. Jove shield thee well for this!
But what see I? No Thisbe do I see.
O wicked Wall through whom I see no bliss!
175Cursed be thy stones for thus deceiving me!
Thank you, you’re such a polite wall. God bless you for doing this. But what’s this I see? I don’t see any Thisbe. Oh wicked wall, through which I don’t see any happiness! Damn your stones for disappointing me like this!
THESEUS
The wall, methinks, being sensible, should curse again.
THESEUS
Since the wall is conscious, it should curse back at him.
BOTTOM
(out of character) No, in truth, sir, he should not. “Deceiving me” is Thisbe’s cue. She is to enter now and I am to spy her through the wall. You shall see, it will fall pat as I told you. Yonder she comes.
BOTTOM
(out of character) No, actually, sir, he shouldn’t say anything. It’s not his turn, it’s Thisbe’s. “Disappointing me like this” is Thisbe’s cue. She’s supposed to enter now, and I’ll see her through the wall. You’ll see, it’ll happen exactly like I say. Here she comes.
ENTER THISBE
THISBE ENTERS.
THISBE
(played by FLUTE)
O Wall, full often hast thou heard my moans,
For parting my fair Pyramus and me!
My cherry lips have often kissed thy stones,
185Thy stones with lime and hair knit up in thee.
THISBE
(played by FLUTE) Oh wall, you’ve often heard me moaning because you keep me separated from my handsome Pyramus! My cherry lips have often kissed your bricks, which are stuck together with cement.
PYRAMUS
I see a voice. Now will I to the chink,
To spy an I can hear my Thisbe’s face. Thisbe?
PYRAMUS
I see a voice! I’ll go to the hole to see if I can hear my Thisbe’s face. Thisbe?
THISBE
My love thou art, my love, I think.

[Gregory]

More doubleplus bullcrap from Frisch 838pm.

I remember drinking with a Danish software engineering buddy years ago... I got a good laugh out of him once by saying... "In every country, people say their country is the best. In the US when we say it... it's true." How much we'd had to drink at the time is unclear.

Is it objective truth when Frisch characterizes the 100% unanimity of "every literary critic, English professor and experienced reader for more than 100 years" on the meaning of the poem? Just disagreeing with Frisch's characterizations classifies one as an "inexperienced reader"... and, probably, a dumb as a rock conservative.

"Um, you do realize that in the eyes of the poems progressive protagonist the wall is not a good thing, right?"

-Steven Frisch | 10 January 2019 at 06:06 PM

Um... Stevie... you do realize that the "progressive protagonist" is, nonetheless, performing his yearly task in concert with his quiet neighbor to repair the shared fenceline, and none of the thoughts attributed to the neighbor are claimed to be uttered, besides "Good fences make good neighbors"?

If there was a debate, it was between the strawman Frost conjures in the experienced reader's mind for the quiet neighbor and the "progressive protagonist".

It might be interesting to read a companion piece written from the neighbor's POV. Several could be written, all from differing personal, political and ethical vantage points.

[Gregory]

More doubleplus bullcrap from Frisch 838pm.

I remember drinking with a Danish software engineering buddy years ago... I got a good laugh out of him once by saying... "In every country, people say their country is the best. In the US when we say it... it's true." How much we'd had to drink at the time is unclear.

Is it objective truth when Frisch characterizes the 100% unanimity of "every literary critic, English professor and experienced reader for more than 100 years" on the meaning of the poem? Just disagreeing with Frisch's characterizations classifies one as an "inexperienced reader"... and, probably, a dumb as a rock conservative.

"Um, you do realize that in the eyes of the poems progressive protagonist the wall is not a good thing, right?"

-Steven Frisch | 10 January 2019 at 06:06 PM

Um... Stevie... you do realize that the "progressive protagonist" is, nonetheless, performing his yearly task in concert with his quiet neighbor to repair the shared fenceline, and none of the thoughts attributed to the neighbor are claimed to be uttered, besides "Good fences make good neighbors"?

If there was a debate, it was between the strawman Frost conjures in the experienced reader's mind for the quiet neighbor and the "progressive protagonist".

It might be interesting to read a companion piece written from the neighbor's POV. Several could be written, all from differing personal, political and ethical vantage points.

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: Gregory | 13 January 2019 at 03:41 PM

I suggest you spend the next decade of your life countering the point of view of ALL the great cultural icons of American literary history. It would fit you 'intent to be contrarian' obsession to a tee.

You might start by re-writing "Nature" and "Self Reliance" by Ralph Waldo Emerson; Resistance to Civil Government by Henry David Thoreau; :Leaves of Grass" by Walt Whitman and "Man an Nature" by George Perkins Marsh.

"...the strawman Frost conjures..." I love it.

[Steven Frisch]

Oh, and by the way, Yes if you think mending wall is about property rights you're an idiot.

[Gregory]

Here's another view from philosopher Onora O'Neil:

https://books.google.com/books/about/Justice_Across_Boundaries.html?id=VaqzCwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Steven Frisch]

I never said that the neighbor did not believe that good fences make good neighbors; I asked if George realized that in the eyes of the poems progressive protagonist the wall is not a good thing.

He chose to take the question down the property rights rabbit hole.

But the poem is not even about the wall, the wall is just a metaphor...the poem is about the shared responsibilities we have in a society, some of which we may not like or even agree with, but which we accept because we are a part of society and the world doesn't fucking revolve around us.

But how about you start re-writing Leaves of Grass...the way your crew re-interprets Orwell, or misinterprets the Tragedy of the Commons, or twists any other cultural icon to fit their pre-conceived world view to use like a "stone grasped firmly by the top In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed."

[George Rebane]

StevenF 530pm - Missed again Steve (you're as regular as clockwork). In my analysis I specifically pointed out the debate between the neighbors - one a proponent of walls, the other not. And then in what to you was another misunderstood "rabbit hole", I expanded on the function of walls and surmised a reasonable basis for Frost's wall proponent. I readily admit that there are multiple interpretations of 'Mending Wall', as there are of any such poem. But your position, quite understandable, is that it is the interpretation you favor or it is error.

As a Bayesian, I can't say with certainty that my interpretation of Frost's poem is correct, though I believe it to be plausible (cf also Gregory's 508pm). Therefore, there may yet arrive evidence that makes me change my mind. But you have always been a consensus kind of guy, with a keen eye to selecting the consensus that fits your ideology/narrative. My career on the bleeding edge has been bountiful, perhaps, because my training and mentors echoed Richard Feynman's, “If you thought that science was certain - well, that is just an error on your part”, "Distrust of experts is the cornerstone of science", and “I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.”

[Bill Tozer]

Tricky, no bricks in the wall. Not earthquake proof.

https://m.facebook.com/RowdyConservatives/photos/a.217983685002343/1521544897979542/?type=3&source=48

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: George Rebane | 13 January 2019 at 05:57 PM

I posited nothing to begin with George, I asked you a question, which rather than answering you used an an opportunity to "update" your post.

You cannot defend your position ex post facto.

[Gregory]

"You cannot defend your position ex post facto."

-Frisch, 614pm

That is a right that Frisch reserves for himself.

And, turning the Wayback machine to the days of the NH2020 debacle, Frisch's side was clearly in the camp of those who did not want to observe the property boundaries in order to look for unique members of the biosphere that might sit on private property owned by folk who did not trust the Gang of Four or the Truckee 501c3 they hired to push their agenda hidden behind *their* boundaries as a private company.

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: Gregory | 13 January 2019 at 07:31 PM

So Greg, do you deny that, 1) I asked the question I stated above, and 2) George responded not directly but rather by updating the original post to include his discourse on property rights?

BTW, you have the NH2020 history wrong again...doing biological resources assessments does not require nor did NH 2020 inspect anyones property without their approval. The analysis was done with GIS mapping to look at vegetation type, wetlands, habitat type, etc.

Although a lot of hysterical old men bitched about their perception that someone was going to trespass on their property, there was never any verified case of anyone doing so.

In addition all of the instructions by both the County and SBC to the team doing the biological resources study (all pretty established and trusted scientists) had specific statements requiring the never go on private property.

So in other words, your perceptions are just the crazed ramblings of a conspiracy theorist crank with no merit.

[George Rebane]

SteveF 614pm – Your kind likes making a lot of rules for others; God help us if/when you also get the power to enforce them. We already see which direction such hubris has taken our country.

“You cannot defend your position ex post facto.”

I most certainly can ‘defend’ or explain my position at any time and in any way I choose. And when I consider that a commenter has made a relevant contribution to my commentary, or, as in your case, has committed an egregious error, I often choose to addend or update my original post so as to highlight the point for other readers, and not bury my answer and/or view in the comment stream. To do so is my prerogative as the owner and host of this weblog. You literally have no say in the manner other than to grouse, advise us again about the world according to Frisch, and/or depart.

[Gregory]

So, after "a lot of hysterical old men bitched" (nice mix of misogynous and androgynous metaphors there, Steve), there wasn't any *verified* case of private property incursion.

I suppose had they not "bitched", you and the County would have still made sure no inspections of people's property would have been made without their permission?

And the wretchedly misnamed "Sierra Business Council" (it isn't a Council of Businesses) practically gave away their services to the Gang of Four (the Progressives who got elected to the board of Supervisors), only charging one third of the cost of NH 2020. You even ran the "town hall meetings" designed to drive the rubes to the predetermined choices.

Great work, gentlemen.

A "conspiracy theorist crank"? Moi? I'm the one who doesn't see a commie bastard behind every imagined Agenda 21 reference, Steve. However, I do see you "ex post facto" covering your ass with wild accusations against people who don't trust you as far as they can spit.

Checking, the photos of SBC staff on your website show them still to be lily white and mostly female. Tsk, tsk.

[Gregory]

That should have read "misogynous and misandrous metaphors". Got the adjectival form of misandry wrong.

[Bill Tozer]

Not trying to interrupt your thread, dear gentlemen, but this link is sort of on topic to the issues that are being raised about the Wall, pro and con, from property rights to bigger global issues.

“A wall is both a symbolic and substantive rejection of the globalists’ open-border, national sovereignty-despising agenda.”

https://patriotpost.us/articles/60510-anti-wall-equals-pro-globalism?fbclid=IwAR3LBSHqaBEGGwghLF4aRKPdNQVgUDZJl2u2Gs_7BR0XV7LRZ5wJqbvmpAI

[George Rebane]

BillT 1025am - Really Mr Tozer?! ;-)

[Steven Frisch]

Still not stunned that propagandists even try to shift cultural icons that do not support their world view to their advantage.

[Don Bessee]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/why-did-democrats-vote-barrier-214218216.html

;-)