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26 January 2019

Comments

L

Saw what you did there at paragraph 8. L

George Rebane

L 257pm - Thought you might; think they'll bite?

Paul Emery

George

What "label" do you give Libertarians such as Ron Paul who believes we should not be involved in foreign military adventures unless they threaten our national boundaries? Of course I'm referring to the ideas expressed in his essay "Why we Fight.

https://original.antiwar.com/paul/2005/09/10/why-we-fight-and-why-we-shouldnt/

George Rebane

PaulE 441pm - He is a Westphalian purist. Unfortunately, we cannot pull in our horns to a degree that would satisfy such purists. The world is too interconnected to allow us that luxury.

Tricky McClean

“The world is too interconnected to allow us that luxury.” Now I’m totally confused ... I thought “interconnected” was a Nazi-Communist word!

fish

Posted by: Tricky McClean | 27 January 2019 at 11:54 AM


Depends on who’s using it!

Paul Emery

So George whats next under your exemption from Westphalian principals? Venezuela? Are we going to make the same mistake of attempted Nation Building there that we attempted and failed so miserably at in Iraq and the Middle East?

George Rebane

TrickyM 1154am - Courage sir! Set aside for a moment the method you used for drawing that inference (the discovery of which itself would be an entertaining pursuit), and consider that 'global interconnectedness' can manifest itself in several different ways. You are apparently focused on the command and control aspect of that notion of the kind practiced by totalitarians. Widen your semantic horizon, and you'll see (I hope) that the Westphalian world order can also be intensely interconnected in, say, trade, finance, and all kinds of cooperative developments among sovereign nation-states. I hope this resolves some of your total confusion. If not, let's attempt to dissipate whatever confusion remains. Thanks for bringing this up.

George Rebane

PaulE 1242pm - The Westphalian order is not a suicide pact. Nations that strongly feel that their national interests (economic, security, ...) are being compromised by another nation or political entity have and always will take measures to protect such interests, including whumping the offender. But the Westphalian principle puts the onus on the invader to make its case to the world community that its response was justified under what passes for global norms of justice. Pre-Westphalian principals were not so burdened - might was right without need of justification and/or the possibility of suffering a unified front of sanctions from other nations.

Steven Frisch

So first off this idea that the world today should be primarily guided by principles of state sovereignty included in the Treaty of Westphalia and the Westphalian Doctrine coming out f the 30 years war that ended 350 years ago, is a little out of date, to say the least.

That was a world where standing armies numbered in the low tens of thousands for most nations, there were no weapons of mass destruction, no electronic communication, 90% of goods were used within 50 miles of where they were grown or manufactured, there was no real financial industry, and more than 50% of the populous was illiterate.

It was essentially the Westphalian concept of state sovereignty, and the idea that the state as a sovereign could set its own rules (or blatant lack thereof, that made crimes against humanity and crimes against peace legal by the sovereign), and that there was no international obligation or recourse other than war (or what became total war in WWI & WWII), that ensured wars of global scale and cost.

State sovereignty as defined after WWII, as a result of first the UN Charter based on the concept of mutual sovereign consensual obligation, and the Nuremberg Trials that set the standard that mere sovereign approval did not indemnify perpetrators of crimes against humanity and crimes against peace, is simply different today. That does not mean that a state does not retain almost all of its previously Westphalian Doctrine powers, it means that in the light of modernity, rational players can limit their own powers.

To ignore that, and characterize anything that voluntarily limits sovereignty as inherently some form of creeping globalism that will end in everlasting darkness, is just more dinosaur shit sprinkled across this page by the master race propagandist of Tallinn.

Steven Frisch

And I have to agree with Tricky on this one.....

....global engagement I like (for example invading Iraq) is interconnectivity....
....global engagement I don't like (for example the UNHCR) is the new world order...

...cherry pick much Tallinn Man?

Steven Frisch

"But the Westphalian principle puts the onus on the invader to make its case to the world community that its response was justified under what passes for global norms of justice."

Yeah, like the Gleiwitz incident where German operators faked the Polish attack on the German radio tower as a casus belli.

I'm sorry George, but its not like the Westphalian system did not mean might did not invade right or small at will in the period between 1648 and 1945.

Russ

Where are all the opposing views from you pseudonym user's? Was George's presentation too deep for your comprehension? Or, do you agree with George's views on the great divide?

You progressive lurkers need to speak up and express your views unless you accept George's insight and wisdom on the great divide.

Todd Juvinall

I am all in for the Monroe doctrine. Reagan used it for Grenada and Panama, LBJ for Santa Domingo, HW Bush for Panama. I hve friends in Venezuela and the place is a disaster. Maduro won't leave and they know what is coming. A couple thousand Marines and some gunships and the country gets peaceful again.

Russ

A TUTORIAL ON PRINCIPAL COMPONENT ANALYSIS
Here is a link to a Princeton principal component analysis (PCA) tutorial. PCA is a mainstay of modern data analysis - a black box that is widely used but poorly understood. The goal of this Princeton paper is to dispel the magic behind this black box. The tutorial focuses on building a solid intuition for how and why principal component analysis works.

https://www.cs.princeton.edu/picasso/mats/PCA-Tutorial-Intuition_jp.pdf

I hope this helps. Michael "Hockey Stick" Mann attempted to use PCA in his analysis of tree rings and their relationship to global warming and screwed it up by not understanding how PCA works. He could have used this tutorial to make sure random noise did not also produce "hockey sticks". See how important it is to understanding PCA works? Today we would not be spending billions of our taxpayer dollars trying to fix a natural climate cycle if Mann had understood PCA limitations. Then again, maybe he did.

Russ

Clarification:

He could have used this tutorial to make sure random noise did not also produce "hockey sticks" when processed by his PCA analysis program.

Paul Emery

So Todd was the invasion of Iraq worth the expense of American lives (over 4000) and Treasure (2 Trillion) ?

George Rebane

StevenF - First of all, thank you for your contribution. But as usual, your understanding fell short. My commentary was not about the interpretation of Westphalian details, but its citation in part as to what notion divides us today that most efficiently summarizes and gives rise to derivative beliefs which are then completely predictable (e.g. such as yours if these comment streams are witness). BTW, you should also submit your critique to Henry Kissinger. I would suggest your reading of his 'World Order', but I'm not sure that will be any more comprehensible than your attempts to understand my socio-political beliefs. Nevertheless, spewing your interpretations wrapped in personal invectives always conveys the comfort of consistency.

Gregory

George, Ron Paul isn't a "Westphalian purist"... he's someone who thinks the Constitution is binding and says what it says.... a Constitutional purist.

Frisch thinks that the Constitution can and should be diluted little by little with trade deals cum treaties that bind us. Boiling the frog. We'll all be globalists before anyone knows it.

Punchy... the word you were looking for but didn't find at 1242pm is "principles". The word you used refers to this kind of p-word;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal_Skinner

Paul Emery

That's an old one Gregory. You've used it before. Try something new for a change

Gregory

Punchy... An old one? Your flub is only about 3 hours old by my clock.

George Rebane

Gregory 324pm - According to my and my mentors' lights, US Constitutional purists are a subset of Westphalian purists. You can draw your tree differently.

Steven Frisch

Posted by: George Rebane | 27 January 2019 at 02:15 PM


George I think you misunderstood my post....I would think my meaning would be clear to a self proclaimed illuminated one...if the citation your modern assumptions of "what divides us today" rest upon are unsound in the modern world, then the view you hold of our modern world are unsound.

I completely understand your socio-political beliefs. I merely think your hold socio-political believes are Euro-centric tripe.

But of course when faced with a critique I expect you to resort to derivative meanings for comfort. Thus the "master race propagandist of Tallinn."

George Rebane

StevenF 415pm - Another mouthful of words from you; wherever did you draw any evidence that I am "a self proclaimed illuminated one". You should really give it a try - address what people actually have said, instead constantly trying to avoid the debate by creating straw men you can tackle.

Steven Frisch

I did address what you said, And really, you’re calling me wordy! The Westphalian Doctrine was based on an entirely different world, as I said, and basing a policy of global engagement today solely or even predominately on the Westphalian vision was largely extirpated by WWII and the Nuremberg trials.

You based your case on the foundation that Americans would rather be a part of a Westphalian nation state...that is right up there in your response to Mr. Seib.

Don Bessee

@543 You lefties need to lock up your old white guys, wait that would mean you too frischy -

https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2019/01/27/brokaw-hispanics-should-work-harder-at-assimilation/

;-)

Don Bessee

As the world turns and it turns out that the scum of the left are scurrying in both directions. The inflow is all from our strategic threats. Iran, little green men from the ruskies and the chi coms want to get paid or own a base. But even the EU etc. say no way jose ….

(Bloomberg) -- Until recently, it would have been unthinkable for a majority of Latin American countries to rally around U.S. President Donald Trump’s push for regime change in Caracas.

In a quick succession of statements, eleven Latin countries followed Trump’s lead to recognize Juan Guaido, the leader of Venezuela’s national assembly, as the country’s interim president. That’s a far cry from the traditional support for non-intervention and the suspicion with which Washington has been greeted in a region with a long history of U.S. intervention.

The shift stems in part from the receding "pink tide" of left-leaning governments which has given way to administrations eager for closer ties with the U.S., and also from the sheer scale of the tragedy in Venezuela, said Benjamin Gedan, a former South America director at the White House’s National Security Council during the Obama administration.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/latin-american-nations-rally-around-130001545.html

;-)

Tricky MMMcarna

Sedition

Tricky MMMcarna

Sedition

Tricky MMMcarna

Sedition

Steven Frisch

I think you can judge a person partly by how unimaginative their insults are Don.

Gregory

Frisch 825pm

That was an entirely unimaginative insult, Steve.

L

Frisch @8:25, have a look at the three remarks directly above your own non-sequiter.
George @4:04 yesterday: Yep!

L

George Rebane

re StevenF 543pm - For Steve Frisch evidence is what he says is evidence, nothing more is needed.

There is a 'Westphalian principle' and a 'Westphalian world order', but I'm not familiar with what is "a part of a Westphalian nation state". It seems that with every succeeding post Frisch continues to demonstrate that he is out of his element.

In the update I have posted a more complete reflection on the above exchange with Mr Frisch who arrived in this comment stream on schedule.

Larry Kennedy

Steven Frische 5:43-
Consider it an honor to be called "wordy" by George Rebane. He is a walking, talking example of why every major publication employs editors. Too often writers who hold themselves in lofty esteem mistake loquaciousness with being erudite. Here on these pages we've seen a corruption of the American English language so stilted and bizarre that it upends the whole reason for language - communication.

When an author is incapable of using common English communication to the point he is required to assemble his own glossary of terms, it becomes Tolkienesque. The difference between Tolkien and Rebane, of course, is that Tolkien could communicate across broad swaths of society, and even when translated into 21 different languages his message was un garbled and rang clear as a bell. Hold your ground Steve, even those of who don't ascribe to your beliefs, understand what you are trying to say. And are not baffled by BS.

scenes

LarryKennedy@11:21

tl;dr Me no like George so me no like George's wording.

Mr Frisch typing a missive from his NPO with nary a POC:
"I think you can judge a person partly by how unimaginative their insults are Don."

It seems to me that there's a pretty weak correlation, but I'll put up my variant. You can judge a movement partly by the nature of it's insults. Now that the Blue Mob has decided that 'populism', 'nationalism', and 'Eurocentric' are the worst kind of phrases, it really gives you insight into their philosophy. No arguments on public policy are needed or used.

The fact that the Blue Mob thinks of itself as some kind of world changin', people savin', do goodin' kind of rabble rather than as simply the street soldiers of the current elite cracks me up no end. In the final analysis, the 420th Nevada City Volunteers are merely cannon fodder for Citibank.

To be fair, somebody has got to replace culture with government fiat. It's for the children after all.

scenes

From https://deadline.com/2019/01/tom-brokaw-apologizes-for-meet-the-press-immigration-comments-1202543000/

"Appearing as a panelist on this morning’s show (see video via Twitter below), Brokaw said when he “pushes” Americans on the subject of immigration, “They say, ‘Well, I don’t know whether I want brown grand-babies.’ That’s also a part of it, the intermarriage that’s going on and the cultures that are conflicting with each other. I also happen to believe that the Hispanics should work harder at assimilation. … You know, they ought not to be just codified in their communities but make sure that all their kids are learning to speak English and that they feel comfortable in the communities. And that’s going to take outreach on both sides, frankly.”
...
followed by (of course):

"“I feel terrible a part of my comments on Hispanics offended some members of that proud culture,” Brokaw tweeted in the first of a multi-part apology. "

followed up by another speaker:

"And the idea that we think Americans can only speak English, as if Spanish and other languages wasn’t always part of America, is, in some ways, troubling.”"
-----

Not only different cultures, but swathes of the US not speaking English as a primary language. Nope, no trouble a brewin' here. You just need to make sure that the imperial capital has a great big internal security organization.

scenes

re: Tom Brokaw

Those are the words you hear from someone who says what they think, but then sez the magic words to keep his job.

You'd hate for the Blue Mob to stop by your front door after all.

fish


"“I feel terrible a part of my comments on Hispanics offended some members of that proud culture,” Brokaw tweeted in the first of a multi-part apology. "


The theatrical ritual apology……! Predictable and part and parcel of the progressive catechism.

You would think that a guy with all the "fuck you" money in the world would have the stones to tell Blue Mob to pound sand. But I forget that Tom still wants to be invited to the "proper" social gatherings so it's abase yourself Tom…..abase yourself before all!!


He'll do penance (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/penance) and wash his evil deed away.


Todd Juvinall

It looks like the democrats have a lot of things to apologize for. Of course his goosing of a fellow classmate in the fifth grade is still to be done.

George Rebane

re LarryK 1121pm - And yet they come, and yet they come.

scenes

"The theatrical ritual apology……!"

It's funny that we're far enough along in our current drama that not only the word 'nationalism' is equal to Nazism, but that the suggestion that immigrants should immerse themselves in a national culture and learn the national language is considered a form of heresy.

Unless there's some form of technically driven 'singularity' (truly a kind of deus ex machina I guess), we can expect *such* an amazing Yugoslavia to emerge. It's entertaining to think about who the warring parties will be. Just wait until Europe is overrun by the population explosion from the south.

Larry Kennedy

Re Brokaw-
The guy is undergoing chemo for multiple myeloma, has Alzheimers, and is rapidly going blind. I agree, his time for being in front a camera is over but you have to give him credit for still being able to hold a thought and articulate in complete sentences. That's more than anyone has ever said about Juvinall, even in his prime some 50 years ago.

Bill Tozer

The real issue that divides us? Hmmm. I can name two off the top me melllon.

Gov. Cuomo: Pro-life, pro-gun conservatives 'have no place' in New York

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jan/19/gov-cuomo-pro-life-conservatives-have-no-place-new/?fbclid=IwAR12D3dvGf1Nhfrn0y2RsnzIgnjaEqOUuxOfu_y0op5cpN7M9WKhUF3e14o

George Rebane

BillT 908am - My point is that all such issues (and there are tens of them) are derivative, and can be reliably subsumed by the globalist/Westphalian discriminant.

Todd Juvinall

Larry Kennedy | 28 January 2019 at 02:43 PM
You trolls are too funny. I have a knack of getting you to come out from under your bridges. What a hoot!

Bill Tozer

@ 9:31 am. Ok, maybe this it too far out there, but it’s a bigger issue nonetheless. What really divides us?

“Consider even the appeal of Socialism today. In it we find the idea that you are not free unless the government makes possible your desires. It actually makes sense. Many Americans have come to elevate the self above all else. It is their “god.” When something exterior to the self comes in conflict with self-actualization, we do not reflect and wonder about the rightness or wrongness of our desires. Instead, we turn to the collective to remove that barrier.

I believe that desire is the root of the rage you see so often unleashed. It is the desire to be like God, but confronted by the reality of human limits. Those things that go against our personal truth, such as tradition, law, customs, and so on, are to be destroyed so that there can be no doubt as to the rightness of our personal truth.

According to Plato, the pursuit of our desires leads to more and more social chaos, which ultimately ends in tyranny.

https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/article/root-our-troubles

George Rebane

BillT 1029am - Make no mistake Mr Tozer, you are right that gun rights and abortion are indeed among the most proximal and visible issues. But they become issues only because of the major ideological faction in America that unifies under a collectivist global governance. And the semantically camouflaged derivative issues are what must be implemented as public policies to make America into a compliant country ready for such governance.

For the socialists to lead with the open promotion of an overarching, powerful global world order would be anathema in today's America (and even Europe). The weakening of sovereign nations must be a gradual process (through education, entertainment, and entitlements) that brings to mind its simile of frogs being slowly cooked in tolerably hot water. Prominent and comprehensible derivative issues are just the ticket.

Paul Emery

George based on personal conversations You believe in a woman's right to choose with a reasonable time limit. How do you reconcile that viewpoint with your Republican Conservative colleagues?

Don Bessee

It only took 2 years and its not been confirmed that he was snatched up in his mommy's basement -

Washington, D.C. Antifa leader Joseph “Jose” Alcoff, also known as “Chepe,” was arrested and charged with multiple felonies in Philadelphia on Jan. 10 in connection to the Antifa mob attack against two Marines in November.

Alcoff faces 17 charges, including multiple counts of aggravated assault, ethnic intimidation, conspiracy and terroristic threats, and one count of robbery while inflicting serious bodily injury.

An affidavit filed in the case reveals that The Daily Caller News Foundation’s reporting on Alcoff’s connection to violent Antifa groups was an integral factor leading to his arrest. (RELATED: Revealed: Antifa Leader Relied On Anonymity To Push Radical, Violent Communist Agenda)

https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/29/antifa-leader-marines-arrested/

;-)

George Rebane

PaulE 1153am - what does abortion have to do with the topic at hand, especially since such derivative factors were covered in my 1102am?

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