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20 February 2019


Don Bessee

This is going to leave a mark -



Don Bessee

They could unwittingly help -




Don Bessee

Dem in denial -




Our host has a (generally commendable) habit of packing a great deal into his commentaries. An example, in paragraph 7, is his comment (which will sail right past the lefties here) notices the fact that the US, alone among developed countries, has actually made measurable progress in reducing CO2 emissions.

The long-expired Kyoto treaty was the first attempt to mandate reductions in CO2 output; the US Senate steadfastly refused to sign on, but upon expiry, Lo! only the United States showed any measurable progress.

Likewise, under the current Paris Climate Treaty (from which Trump withdrew the US), once again, only the US is making any progress. Look it up, dopes, don't ask me to do your research for you.

Think maybe the freedom to innovate outside the straitjacket of government mandates has anything to do with this? L

Scott O

I can't remember who wrote the following nor the French politician he quotes, but it is apt.
Something along the line of - "You Americans have a socialist country in many respects but you don't yet pay the necessary taxes."
Hence our ballooning debt.
No lefties, it's not because of the military or wars - the projected (and the numbers are following the projections) unfunded costs of our socialist programs are going to completely engulf our local, state and national budgets. The 'rich' can't save us from our profligate ways. Bezos and the rest simply haven't got anywhere near the dough to pull us out of our fiscal stew.
It works great until it don't.
Sorry I don't have the magic crystal ball to say when that is, but that fun day is coming. Not actually a single day, of course but a series of unpleasant jolts that our dear leaders will scramble to paper over with, well, paper. Lots of it. Our digital currency will enable all sorts of high-jinx for a while and who knows what all will ensue. A lot depends on world events as well. A really cool world war got us out our last mess and heralded the booming economy of the 50's. Wanna bet we can pull that off again?

Bill Tozer

On a recent thread on these boarrds, the agrument put forth by our Leftist commentators was because not one Western European (developed) “socialist country” has yet to transmute into a tyrannical form of governance, nor has any of these nations crashed and burned’, it can’t happen here.
Aha! Western Europe does not have socialist countries. They, as in the oft cited Sweden model, are capitalistic countries with large welfare programs. Some may refer to them as Welfare States, but they are in reality Capitalistic systems that because of the capitalist economic model can fund the ‘welfare state. Sweden’s residents pay a 50% tax rate, top to bottom.
The Select Committee of the GND will run the joint: a money quote from The Committee:

“and deeply involve national and local labor unions to take a leadership role in the process of job training and worker deployment.”

(B) The Plan for a Green New Deal (and the draft legislation) shall recognize that a national, industrial, economic mobilization of this scope and scale is a historic opportunity to virtually eliminate poverty in the United States and to make prosperity, wealth and economic security available to everyone participating in the transformation. In furtherance of the foregoing, the Plan (and the draft legislation) shall:
provide all members of our society, across all regions and all communities, the opportunity, training and education to be a full and equal participant in the transition, including through a job guarantee program to assure a living wage job to every person who wants one;
diversify local and regional economies, with a particular focus on communities where the fossil fuel industry holds significant control over the labor market, to ensure workers have the necessary tools, opportunities, and economic assistance to succeed during the energy transition;
require strong enforcement of labor, workplace safety, and wage standards that recognize the rights of workers to organize and unionize free of coercion, intimidation, and harassment, and creation of meaningful, quality, career employment;
ensure a ‘just transition’ for all workers, low-income communities, communities of color, indigenous communities, rural and urban communities and the front-line communities most affected by climate change, pollution and other environmental harm including by ensuring that local implementation of the transition is led from the community level and by prioritizing solutions that end the harms faced by front-line communities from climate change and environmental pollution;
protect and enforce sovereign rights and land rights of tribal nations;
mitigate deeply entrenched racial, regional and gender-based inequalities in income and wealth (including, without limitation, ensuring that federal and other investment will be equitably distributed to historically impoverished, low income, deindustrialized or other marginalized communities in such a way that builds wealth and ownership at the community level);
include additional measures such as basic income programs, universal health care programs and any others as the select committee may deem appropriate to promote economic security, labor market flexibility and entrepreneurism; and
deeply involve national and local labor unions to take a leadership role in the process of job training and worker deployment.
(C) The Plan for a Green New Deal (and the draft legislation) shall recognize that innovative public and other financing structures are a crucial component in achieving and furthering the goals and guidelines relating to social, economic, racial, regional and gender-based justice and equality and cooperative and blah,, blah, blah, blah,


Bill Tozer

My 6:49 pm in a nutshell

“include additional measures such as basic income programs, universal health care programs and any others as the select committee may deem appropriate to promote economic security, labor market flexibility and entrepreneurism; and
deeply involve national and local labor unions to take a leadership role in the process of job training and worker deployment.

Bill Tozer

Oh yeah. The Select Committee will deem what is necessary. Not surprising, the Commmitttee has no legislative authority. Governing by committee...the Select Committee. It can’t happen here. No crash and burn here. No tyranny.



Scott O

Just finished reading 'Economic Calculation In The Socialist Commonwealth' by Von Mises and 'The Road To Serfdom' by Hayek. The first was written in 1920 and the latter was first published in 1944. Both books have been championed previously here on RR.
I can not fully express how awed I was by the prescience of future events laid out by both authors. Neither man was 'lucky' in his predictions or assumptions. Both simply looked around at history and the then current events and applied reason and common sense to explain why collectivism and socialism have always failed and why it will continue to fail.
The bottom line is that only the individual acting in his or her own best interest has the most accurate ongoing information and responsibility to apply the most correct actions towards a healthy economy. The left will complain that it doesn't work perfectly and there are glaring lapses in a capitalistic, free market system. But as both authors point out, a drive towards the goal of economic equality will always result in the ruination of whatever society did or will attempt it.

Bill Tozer

This link is not about AOC or the GND, despite a first glance. Nay, it’s about (un)sustainability and the role it plays in the whole she-bang.

“Sustainability is an ideology in which protecting the environment is inherently wrapped up in protecting society and the economy––protecting not just against pollutants and high temperatures, but against dangers of any kind. That means padding workers against potential economic downturns with guaranteed income, labor unions, and generous government welfare that picks up the tab for housing, health care, food, and water. It also means crushing businesses with restrictive regulations or nationalizing them altogether...

The environment can’t really be separated from our society and the economy, according to the doctrine of sustainability. Hence the common depiction of sustainability as a Venn diagram, showing three interlocking circles labeled “environment,” “society,” and “economy,” with “sustainability” in the middle.

That explains why some have proposed bizarre correlations between environmental and social problems, like this study that estimated global warming would cause an additional 180,000 rapes by 2099. And a couple years ago National Geographic (among many other publications) credited climate change with the rise of ISIS. (Sen. Bernie Sanders also blamed climate change for terrorism, while Prince Charles pinned it with the war in Syria.)

Via the concept of “environmental racism,” global warming has also been blamed for exacerbating racism and social injustice. (Often this is described as harming “frontlines communities.”) And the corporations blamed for causing climate change are also blamed for income inequality.


Scott O

Bill at 4:25 - 'Global Warming' is a handy device for the left in explaining all sorts of social maladies. Certainly Syria was a wealthy and prosperous multi-kulti nation that inspired awe in the rest of the world until 'Global Warming' came along. That beacon of democracy in the sand suddenly fell to the evils of V-8 driving Americans. Such a shame.
How many times do the lefty greens have to tell the world they don't care about science, they just want to get rid of capitalism? The thick heads of the leftista that show up here refuse to acknowledge any of it.

Scott O

Oregon leads the way!
Boy - those Oregonians are sure lucky to have them smart fellers in govt get it right!
They've done so well they now have a crises on their hands.
And the sure cure for stupidity is more stupidity.
Let's remember how Oregon got where they are now-
Read it and weep. Just make houses ever more expensive and the promised land is nigh!

Scott O

I notice the usual suspects aren't adding their 2 pennies to the 'conversation'.
Could this be why?


Weimar 1919 L

Steven Frisch

The first problem with your premise is that your definition of "socialism" as implied here and defined in your glossary is incorrect. Socialism is not a "form of governance that seeks as its endgame the state ownership of the means of production and distribution which it executes through a centralized process of
planning and control."

Socialism is an economic system where there is social ownership of the means of production.

BTW, "state ownership of the means of production" is communism, not socialism.

The vast majority of those currently being labeled socialists are not...they are mixed market economy advocates. Almost no one labeled a socialist is advocating ending the economic system based private ownership of the means of production, myself included.

A mixed capitalist market economy, with private ownership of property, private enterprise, and planning, taxation and the freedom to challenge taxation through democratic governance, regulation and a legal framework constraining regulation, is exactly what we have had under the Constitution, and we continue to have, and even most of those defined as radical today advocate.

When when defines their own terms sans the context of history they have a fool for their linguist.

Steven Frisch

That should read, "When one defines their own terms sans the context of history they have a fool for their linguist."

Todd Swallows

"When one defines their own terms sans the context of history they have a fool for their linguist."

You said it better than I ever could, but my thoughts have run that way many times when coming across self derived jingoism that passes (among some) for intelligence or simply another "big word" that no one is going to bother looking up.

Todd Swallows

"Just make houses ever more expensive and the promised land is nigh!"

Sounds like the words of someone living in Idaho.

Bill Tozer


“Socialism is an economic system where there is social ownership of the means of production.”

Can you explain to my thick skull what “social ownership of the means of production” means exactly? Like, social ownership of a watch making factory? Social ownership of Mack trucks?

I could be wrong, but it sounds like a huge bureaucratic state.

Oh a related note, Gavin just came to GV. He said we need more renter productions and the state of California is not producing enough housing units. We are 49th out of 50 in producing housing units. (First ten second audio clip).
How does social ownership fit into the means of production in producing more housing units in CA? Thanks.


Bill Tozer

Typo: Renter protections, not renter productions.

Don Bessee

It remains to be seen how its going to play in fly over country -

WASHINGTON, Feb 23 (Reuters) - Liberal Democratic presidential contenders' rush to embrace the left's most ambitious proposals has some Democrats worried there could be a price to pay when they try to defeat President Donald Trump next year.




Paul Emery


What option to Socialism do you propose for schoolfor our children?
What option to Socialism do you propose for Local, State and National police?
What option to Socialism do you propose for fire fighters?
What option to socialism do you propose for Jails and Prisons and Courts
What option to Socialism do you propose for our Military?
What option to prisons do you propose for insuring clean water and air
What option to Socialism do you propose for FEMA
What option to socialism do you propose for the Coast Guard
What option to Socialism do you propose for the Highway Patrol
What option to Socialism do you propose for health care for the poor?
What option to Socialism do you propose for patrolling our borders.

and on and on and on and on.

You are a socialist George unless you propose non government solutions to the above Socialism is what we have now.

Don Bessee

Why, why, why followed by little feet stomping the ground.


Don Bessee

This just in from berniland -




SteveF sez:

"Socialism is an economic system where there is social ownership of the means of production.

BTW, "state ownership of the means of production" is communism, not socialism."


Could someone parse that for me?

Also, just out of curiosity, in a socialist economy what happens to the non-profits? Do their directors all become bureaucrats as they do God's work?

Todd Swallows

"Ism" this to death if you will, there is no black and white answer. Is CalTrans a communistic enterprise? Dignity Health is a $10.5 Billion non profit, but despite the slick religious tax dodge they are in no way doing God's work any more than they are paying for the infrastructure of our community.


It sounds good at first.. Then wait for reality to set in.
"New York Democratic Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez will likely need to cut senior staff salaries in order to afford the “living wage” the freshman congresswoman intends to pay every staff member."

Take money from someone who actually may have a clue what they are doing, so someone who hasn't figured out how to tie their shoes can get more? LOL!!!!

Place your bets... How long before that office turns into Venezuela?

Steven Frisch

Bill and Scenes..."social ownership" could mean employee ownership, or cooperatives, or citizen ownership of equity, in a company or means of production.

The "means of production" are the capital, physical and non-financial inputs used to produce goods and services.

The point I am making is that that is what "Socialism" is. Defining it any other way, as George does, is simply a semantic aberration designed to either confuse people about the real meaning of the word.

Steven Frisch

Oops, dropped a clause in that last sentence...should read:

"The point I am making is that that is what "Socialism" is. Defining it any other way, as George does, is simply a semantic aberration designed to either confuse people about the real meaning of the word, or imply that people who are really mixed capitalist market economy adherents are socialists."

Don Bessee

The gift that keeps on giving -

The Job Creators Network fired back at Democratic Rep. (D-NY) Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez with two more billboards in the heart of Times Square, this time roasting the left-wing Democrat after she attacked the group on social media.
“Hey AOC, Saw your wack tweet,” the second 7th Avenue billboard says, which is in response to an Ocasio-Cortez tweet that called JCN “wack.”



Todd Juvinall

Is that Frisch'e papa on the page on socialism?

Steven Frisch

Yes, lets be clear about the point that majority employee ownership of corporations is an American tradition, allowed under our laws since our founding, and is way more common than most people think. As a matter of fact I bet a lot of people who think they are Laissez-faire capitalists are buying from them without really knowing it.


Todd Swallows

Is this Mr Ed speak? What does it mean? Inquiring 4th grade English as a Second Language students want to know.

Is that Frisch'e papa on the page on socialism?


Nice try Frisch, We do know what socialism is, and what it can become. My wife's Aunt got a good taste first hand. She took a bullet to the leg running across no man's land near Checkpoint Charley. Her friend that was with her wasn't so lucky. A bullet hit her in the head. Go ahead and explain your "semantic aberration" about that.
Our Constitution and Bill of Rights is a hindrance, and has no place in the Commu..uh, "socialism" your trying to sell here.

Just say what you mean. Socialism is just a "kinder, gentler, and softer" kind of Communism.

Billl Tozer

Thanks for answering, Steve. You always answer my questions, every single time. No exemptions. That is a sign of integrity.
Rather than go off on the ecological disasters in Venezuela and other places where crude oil is leaking all over the ground and polluting steams AFTER oil ccompanies were “nationalized” and run by government bureaucrats who don’tt know their asses from a hole in the ground..... not to mention running an oil company or it’s distribution systems, I shall retrain.
Yes, if I own 3 shares of Disney or Wal-Mart, I own a piece of the publicly traded. company. Ironically, NID is a rate payer owned company and isn’t under the control of the PUC. I should know. When PG&E wanted to build an access road in the higher country and was denied, they had NID cut the road via a partnership and PG&E paid for the whole shebang, lol. So, when all the non-rate payers were demanding more transparency from NID and packing the NID meetings, I thought from my faraway seat out in the peanut gallery that NID should tell the Non-Ratepayers to go fuk themselves.
It’s owned by the people, people owned. Rate payer owned. Can’t buy stock in it. It’s owned by the consumers. Like a co-op. Sweet.

Ok, the above was just filler. I will get to the point and leave with three points concerning “means of production”:

1). When I walk.into the Post Office, should I look down at the tile floor and think of some government factor worker who made that floor tile I am standing on?

2) The Orville Dam was designed by a government engineer just hired out of grad school and who never designed or built as much as a swimming pool in his entire life. He be an expert.

3). Food for thought: The ones who rise to the top in capitalism are the exact same types who rise to the top in communism. Or socialism, if you prefer. They never experience want or need. Now, excuse me. I have to go watch my Two Minutes of Hate. It’s mandatory.

Steve Frisch

Actually Bill NID is a perfect example of a type of social ownership of the means of production in a mixed market economy, as are rural electric cooperatives, and employee owned companies.

Todd Juvinall

Sorry Frisch NID is owned by the voters.

George Rebane

PaulE 343pm - Socialism is STILL not an all or nothing proposition.

BTW, thanks for all of our liberal betters for joining us to debate the issues. No matter the disparagements, we all feel fortunate that you have taken your time to grace us with your contributions. Thank you.


I doubt the ridiculous "non profit" incomes would still be allowed under "soft" commieism. The Gov. will do so much better.
Someone may have to find a real job.

Now don't forget the huge jump in taxation. You will REALLY be forking out "your fair share".


A Commiecrat LIES to get elected. Like that should be a big surprise.
"“He took one of his most fundamental campaign promises – that he wasn’t going to put up tolls on cars – and he lied to the taxpayers and he lied to the voters,” "
In a budget speech Wednesday that left voters reeling, Lamont, a telecommunications entrepreneur who campaigned as a businessman who knew how to reverse the state’s financial crisis, mapped out his plans to bring Connecticut back from the brink of near-bankruptcy – but none of them involved cutting spending.

In fact, the Democrat proposed increased spending as he also pushed for at least 53 electronic overhead toll gantries across what is the third smallest state in the United States – for all cars and trucks. In addition, Lamont called for expanded sales taxes on dozens of new items and services as well as new taxes on sugary drinks, a surcharge on plastic bags, and a $15 minimum wage. "

This is the crap socialists do.

Bill Tozer

Steve, that’s why I included NID and all the outsiders demanding NID answer to them, lol. Let’s cut to the caste.

You bristle at being labeled a socialist or having ideas like workers on the Board of Directors or higher tax rates as “socialism.” Tough titty. You and the older white lefty posters here all HATE the label of being pinkos. Remember, this is Hillary County. But, California ain’t Clinton County no more. No Deep Blue State is. It’s Democrat Socialism all the way, baby. Look around. Think you have a voice in the direction Frisco or LA or Sac is going? That is where it’s going. No place for moderates. Like Nancy said, there is no place for pro-lifers in the Dem Party. Zero. And no place for Christians and old white men and conservative white women in the new society either. Besides them, it’s a big tent and fairness and equity and socialism for all...except the foremention malcontents.
Think your progressive leanings will spare you? Think the Democrat Socialist label is not cover for Socialism? Think they are going to stop at the Swedish model where they keep their mitts off capitalism so that capitalism can pay for a generous welfare state?
Think your Mid West values stand a prayer looking at the declared “Democrat” candidates in CA or on a national level? It’s full socialism coming down the pike, whether you like the label or not.
Where is all the energy in the political realm right now? All the energy, all the excitement, all the direction is embodied in AOC. She is in the top ten on Earth of followed private Twitter accounts. Maybe the top five. Listen to the children. Don’t trust anyone over 30. We are the world, all are children of the Universe. No pain allowed.

You guys look out and see piles of money others have and think about that 24/7 and devise ways to get your hands on it.... ..to pay for unicorns and fairy dust....just as long as your ox does not get gored. It’s for the little people.

I was in Russia after the fall. Bernie is right. The subways are like beautiful museums, no trash. Gorgeous. My host taught English and Art History at the U of Moscow. She had a place. One nice room in a tall building. Shared it with her son and parents, and brother. A stove pipe from the basement ran up through her place and heated the unit.. If her parents wanted to have sex, everybody just turned their heads and looked at the walls. . She was lucky. She had a good place, being a professional and all. Made about 63,000 rubles a week, or about 38 bucks.
Met her friends. Told them to meet me at such and such place later one night. They all looked at me like I was from Mars. No one had cars, lol. Or, nix that idea. The only Mercedes I saw (and there was a lot of them) were all driven by the party leaders. Want a better place? Get more involved and clout with the Party.

The only complaint they had was after the fall, they had to pay rent. Before that the rent was free. Reagan was right. When he heard that it took 6 months in Russia to get a water pump for your commoner car (the ones who were lucky enough to haves car), he said the USSR would collapse. It did. 6 months to get a water pump. Mountains of grain rotting on the docks.
Yes, we aren’t Russia or the USSR or Cuba or South Africa (which is the next to collapse).. We be California.
Sorry you don’t like rhe Socialist label, pinko. Not.

Steven Frisch

Posted by: Todd Juvinall | 23 February 2019 at 06:28 PM

So Todd, clearly you did not read what social ownership means. The voters, or the people, are a form of social ownership.

George Rebane

As Garrett Hardin taught us - when many claim to own something, it turns out that no one owns it, and all will take from it all they can because they know it will soon be gone.

Steven Frisch

Bill higher tax rates are not socialism. That is a mixed market economy mechanism.

Worker (or other forms of social) ownership of the means of production in the US, as you just illustrated, already exists. The US as a mixed market economy has always had some forms of social ownership. We have thousands of worker owned businesses. We have thousands of public purpose corporations, We have some state ownership of equity of privately owned businesses. We have farmers cooperatives for things like rice mills (one of which I pass driving almost every month down in the valley) grain elevators, and processing and packing plants.

The question is not do we have some forms of social ownership...we do.

But in the end I am a mixed market economy guy...you can call me whatever you want to...but words have meanings, and the word socialist has a meaning, and I'm not a socialist. But hey, you can think whatever you want.

And did you notice how you just escalated from a respectful exchange between the two of us to calling me a pinko without me ever escalating on you? Does no one here have any integrity?


So that's the new sales pitch Frisch? "social ownership?"
Supposedly, we already do! We vote them in, and in a fu^ked up way, pay them.(They just vote themselves a paycheck and a raise, with our money) They work for us.. Remember?

I can't wait till the "G" man under DEM/Soc nationalize the evil Empire. They are just making too much money, have too much power, and too big a voice. They are a threat to the government.(yet helped get those vary same people into power...Damned backstabbers)

Can you see 100 Nancy Pelosi's drunk with power over the people?
(sure you could)

Steven Frisch

Hey George you do realize that Garrett Hardin's response to the problem of the tragedy of the commons was not just privatization right?

He also posited regulation as a solution, as well as internalizing externalities by incorporating social and environmental costs into the cost of goods and services.

It has always bugged me that as smart as you think you are, and as much as you use Hardin as an example, you are essentially mis-using Hardin's work as propaganda for privatization.

Your misrepresentation of his work also does a disservice to Hardin's Law, ""We can never do merely one thing. Any intrusion into nature has numerous effects, many of which are unpredictable."

You just don't get it

Steven Frisch

In other words, Hardin did not teach you shit because you clearly don't understand his work.

Steven Frisch


Nothing new about t Walt, that has been the definition of socialism for 150 years.

I really can't help it if you guys don't read economics or history.


Here's a little more for ya'

"Illinois has a severe pension crisis. That’s probably an understatement — the state has over $130 billion in unfunded pension liabilities alone. Last summer, Moody’s reported that the state made the record books for the largest ever pension debt-to-revenue ratio, with pension debt equaling 601 percent of total government revenue. So what are some in the state proposing to solve the problem? Going after money in private retirement accounts, of course.

Two state policy groups, the Civic Committee of the Commercial Club of Chicago and the Civic Federation, have come out in favor of ending an exclusion in the state’s income tax for pension income and federally taxable Social Security income. Doing so, the organizations argue, would raise $2.5 billion in revenue, equivalent to a 0.5 percent income tax rate hike and a 0.85 percent corporate tax rate increase."

As long as it's not yours,, right Frisch?

That's not somewhere else on the marble. It's here.

Todd Juvinall

Don't you just love how socialists like Frisch change the language to suit their ideology? Orwell exposed the Frisch's of the world a long time ago. I remember when the democrats stared calling taxes "investments". And there are many examples of this subterfuge.


Socialism is curtain people living off OPM.
Now who do we know who does that? Now who want's to claim " social ownership" of that?,,,,,, Anyone?

Todd Juvinall

Then it was "you didn't build that" as if society /socialism was the reason America succeeded. Civilization says if we want a road or a levee we might get it if we all work together to build it. Schools too. But now those things are socialist to the left. Ain't gonna wash in America.

Todd Juvinall

Lastly, the socialists are now trying to downplay it into some benign ideology when on;y last centiry its practitioners murdered 100 million people.

Don Bessee

What the world has been teaching us is that socialism is very effective at killing the masses and mis-educated by kleptocrats. What the socialists bastions like SF, NY, LA, chi town, Boston et al are proving that is their policies are steroids for predatory criminal and drug addicted who get financed by the socialist virtue signaling. Then they shame the victims and demand they bow to the dogma and pretend they are not the victims they are because its against approved group think.

The CA socialists create not streets of gold nor even tech chips, they now pave their brave new world with HIV tainted needles and Calcutta levels of human waste and bad streets.


Todd Juvinall

Of course the socialists are all in regarding abortion and feminists seem to be the loudest practitioners of this failed ideology. Here is a feminist's comments on the subject from the Union.

"Lisa Price
The man has no "role in abortion." He has a role in conception. He can prevent that by using a condom or abstaining. That's where his power lies. With HIMSELF. That's where men get it wrong. Having sex with a woman does not give you squatters rights on her body. You have no "right" to anything from her, merely because you've slept with her."

So the woman needs not worry about making new socialists and can blame the male for the whole thing. Cracks me up.

Bill Tozer

Hey Steve, pinko is a term of endearment. Like, who uses pinko anymore, honey bunch? Come on, sugar plum. You get called pinko and you get all offended or something. Which was my point, sweetie pie. Don’t be such a pinko, peaches.

The real point is sustainability. If you want to promote free healthcare for all or a nationalized health care system (think only Britain has a true nationalized health care system in Europe) or Medicaid for all, have at it. If you want to promote higher tax rates or universal guaranteed basic income, go for it. Go ahead and slice and dice and have each piece stand alone. But, when you put all together, you got one big statist pie. Call it what you may, but a rose is a rose by any other name.

Oh, lest I be remiss, every single totalitarian country or communist country or socialist country under the sun that I am aware of did two things right off the bat. One, promised free healthcare. Two, confiscated all the guns from her citizens. Everyone started off that way. And Sweden’s immigration policy of bringing in thousands of immigrants that neither assumlate or are skilled or educated has exposed some frays in the once strong safety net.
I do not believe for one second that the Far Left and elitists will stop at the Swedish model. After the 60’s, Sweden dropped their experiment in socialism and raced back to full capitalism to pay for the party boat. I just see no indication that our New Left can resist the temptation to keep keep their hands off the levers...all the levers. Their wish list is too long, they display the patience of children on Christmas morn, are demanding, and their thirsts are insatiable. First thing that has to go is the darn electrolal college. Then.......

Remember, the heading of this post is unsustainable socialism.
Ah, I will leave it there, rosebud. Sorry I called you pinko, sweet patootie. Not.

Bill Tozer

Pinko jokes are like socialism jokes. They are only funny if everyone gets them.
Computer says sustainability ends now:

“A year later, your mother has a stroke and is fighting for life in an ICU. You try to do as she wanted, you instruct her doctors to maintain her life. But they say no. She is very unlikely to recover, and even if she does, she will be seriously disabled. Her “time” has come, they say. And then, they unilaterally remove her life support over your strenuous objections.

That kind of authoritarianism already happens in Texas and a few other states. Now, Nevada has a bill pending in the legislature that would permit doctors to push patients off wanted life-extending treatment. From SP 189:

A medical facility is not subject to disciplinary action, shall not be found to have violated any standard of care and is immune from civil and criminal liability for refusing to provide care or treatment requested by a patient at the medical facility, or by another person on behalf of such a patient, if a provider of health care:

1: Has determined that the treatment of care would not be effective or is contrary to reasonable medical standards.

This is a bioethics meme known as “medical futility,” “futile care,” “inappropriate care,” or “non-beneficial care” — the bioethicists are still working on the best lexicon to get their policy goals enacted.

The point of futile care is not to protect doctors from forced provision of treatment that isn’t working — sometimes called physiological futility. Rather, it is to enable doctors to stop treatment even though it is accomplishing what the patient wants, i.e., maintaining life. Here are some important points to ponder when considering this issue:


Dan sez:


George Rebane

SteveF 756pm - "... as smart as you think you are ..."?? Who the hell claimed that I was smart? Are you taking both sides of the conversation again? Easy to win arguments when you speak for everyone, kinda like a puppet show.

Don Bessee

Kind of like a sock puppet show @942, are we really back at comparing mensa scores?



Some LIB states just ain't that LIB.

Ca. would remove all the troops from the border and make sure those rouge counties toe the line.

Just like the latest report that the vary pretty Gavin was going to do just that to eradicate non tax paying dope grows.
A little dose of socialism. "for the greater good". (and our Proggys ignored.)

Steven Frisch

Posted by: George Rebane | 23 February 2019 at 09:42 PM

Well George I can can why you might object to the " as smart as you think you are.." comment but let's look at the context.

You run a blog where you pontificate on just about everything under the sun.

You have created your own 'conservatarian credo" to lay our your world view in an almost Uni-bomber like manner.

You have created your own glossary where you define the terms used here and in those definitions pervert their meaning, including at a minimum; communism
conservitarian (which is completely made up), culture, discriminate, globalism, globalization, liberal & socialist.

You regularly bemoan what you state is the poor educational state of modern youth, calling them illiterate, innumerate and part of national "dumpth." (See March of the Mini-minded Millennials; More on Millennial Mini-Minds; The Depth of Dumpth...and I could cite more.)

So let's be clear George, these are all the actions of a person who thinks they are smart.

Yet I note, you were not smart enough to understand Garrett Hardin's essay; or you were and instead intentionally misrepresent it to make the case for privatization ignoring his case for regulation and sustainability.

So of course your pointed to my critique of your inflated opinion of your own intelligence, instead of actually addressing the example I provided.

Todd Juvinall

Well yeah, it is GeorgeR's blog. He created it and he uses it to start and have discussions on many issues. It appears to me you are jealous of his intelligence. You come here with your copy/paste and mindless yapping and are handed your lunch every time you do. Since you don't allow discussion of anything on your SBC FB or other venues under your control I think I will call you a fascist. GeorgeR's approach is freedom. Freedom to discuss even the idiocy you usually bring here.

Steven Frisch

Todd, SBC's FB page is a business page, and has nothing to do with what is a private communication from me as an individual.

Yes, of course, we have had to throw you off the SBC FB page because you do not respect any of the normal boundaries in life.

Let me give you and example; have I ever gone to a blog or other social media site related to George's business interests to comment on his positions? Like perhaps Riskalyze when George was a consultant there? No.

Did I continue to retain Russ Steele as a consultant on broadband issues when my business took over the failed SEDCorps broadband contract? Yes.

Let me tell you something buddy, your sainted Daddy, who fought the fascists in WWII, would roll over in his grave to see the apologist for fascism that you have become.

Todd Juvinall

Sure you libs always have excuses for shutting out others. I see it in all your writings and your compatriots in all the debates and interviews. You have zero creds and perhaps you need to stay quiet for a while.

You really have become a fascist Steve Frisch. It is all about your desire to be in charge of others and snuff out the freedoms you see as a competition for power. I think you need to get more responsible about the country and less about your pals running Venezuela and North Korea.

As far as my dad fighting your heroes in Germany and Italy and Japan in WW2, he would wonder how someone like you could even be in charge of a dogpound.


It's "never" about cost.... Is it?
"Democratic presidential hopeful Kamala Harris pointedly declined in an interview broadcast Sunday to put a price tag on the Green New Deal and "Medicare-for-all," which she has endorsed wholeheartedly even as Republicans cite nonpartisan cost estimates of trillions of dollars for each unprecedented proposal.

Harris, D-Calif., joined Sens. Elizabeth Warren, D-Mass., and Cory Booker, D-N.J. to co-sponsor the Green New Deal resolution earlier this month. The resolution's botched rollout included the release of an official document by New York Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's office that promised economic security even for those "unwilling to work," as well as the elimination of "farting cows" and air travel."

""One of the things that I admire and respect is the measurement that is captured in three letters: ROI," Harris responded. "What's the return on investment? People in the private sector understand this really well. It's not about a cost. It's about an investment. And then the question should be, is it worth the cost in terms of the investment potential? Are we going to get back more than we put in?" "


To our socialists hiding behind the "democrat" label,
this is what you can look forward to.

Of course you will say "it just won't happen here".


BillT "Oh, lest I be remiss, every single totalitarian country or communist country or socialist country under the sun that I am aware of did two things right off the bat."

To be fair, socialism is something of a new concept, barely 200 years old, so no doubt they'll get it right next time.

My take is that it can work given a high-trust culturally monolithic nation-state. Anywhere else? You get a police state and/or a runaway-inflation Mercedes-buyin' crop-failin' head of state on the billion dollar bill printin' extravaganza.

Japan and Switzerland could pull it off, given that they don't import millions and millions of people from the Third World.

No doubt our local Blue Mob prefer a mixture of .gov and market economy, it's just that there's hardly anything that couldn't be done better with more direct government control. As usual, there's always a 'solution' that merely requires enough handwaving to take flight.

I can smell a trend as well as anybody.

Don Bessee

OH boy, this should be good -



Don Bessee

The youngest congresscommie is the boss, so she says -

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez delivers impassioned response to critics: 'I'm the boss. How about that?'



George Rebane

StevenF 741am – Yes, I get to do all the things you enumerated on my blog, and you get to assess my doings as you will. And if you wanted to also present structured and deep apologetics to support your worldview and open yourself up to such ephemeral criticism (you haven’t yet addressed any tenet of my credo), you could do the same. Fisher and Ury of the Harvard Negotiation Project are the mentors who years ago convinced me to reveal my credo, semantics, and utilities to my negotiating and/or debating counterparts. Your taking me to task for that is perhaps more of a revelation about you than about me. Neither they nor I have any allegations about ‘smart’ being connected with such disclosures, they simply are what they are – an open profession. If in them by chance a reader finds anything laudable (which you don’t), then I am pleased. But my pleasure in that is secondary to my readers being able to understand in depth ‘where I am coming from’ on the divers issues discussed here. They are invited every day to identify in detail any error in the bases for my arguments, save the schoolyard response of just ‘no, you’re wrong’.

However, what you can’t do here is try to pass off as rational argument based on the ongoing ruse of putting unspoken words in others’ mouths – a third grader can see such nothing-burgers in a debate. In the end it is you who is piqued by your own opinion of how smart or dumb I am, an opinion to which for some reason you must constantly give voice here and elsewhere. In the end, we all wonder what is the something that keeps bringing you here to debate your world view with someone ignorant whose worldview you neither share nor respect?

Now I believe that your ignorance, most recently about Hardin, is beyond both reach and reproach. Hardin’s ‘TRAGEDY of the Commons’ was a tragedy because it displayed and explained the causal factors of a faulty yet prevalent social organization, one that was not going to be remedied by maintaining it as a commons under one more layer of regulations from on high. Hardin was a regulatory minimalist, and personal responsibility maximalist (yet without suggesting private ownership to be the solution to all problems). Perhaps his most famous example of how a state should minimize regulations in order to minimize the concomitant cost of affected externalities on a commons is his example showing how the Mississippi River could be maintained at greatly reduced pollution levels, not through more regulatory frictions and staffed govt agencies, but through a creative way for its bordering cities to take their drinking water from the river and then discharge their treated effluents back into the river.

Conservatives and libertarians instantly understand what Professor Hardin was all about. I have yet to meet a leftist who doesn’t think Hardin provided a definitive raison d’etre for collectivism, and your interpretations, frankly, take the cake. But then we both would expect nothing else from each other; the only difference is that I don’t pursue you onto other sites to counter you since cognitively and intellectually we share little if anything in common. Yet you come to RR out of a misplaced hubris that people hear you speak from an unassailable pedestal. But then, we’ve circled this barn before – but remember, this is MY purposely assailable barn.

Don Bessee

Shhhh, let them be, it will make it easier for us -

Friday on PBS’s “NewsHour,” New York Times columnist David Brooks described overtures from Democratic politicians to expand the role of government, particularly when it comes to health care and the remaking of the American economy in the name of environmentalism “craziness.”
Brooks said he was a proponent government doing more for some that needed to help to a certain extent, but argued beyond that it could have the effect of turning off a lot of Americans.



Steven Frisch

Dear readers look up the concept of mutual coercion mutually agreed upon which was the core of Hardin's premise.

Human being lack the self regulatory gene, thus the tragedy of the commons.

As Rousseau originally observed democratic society is all about the idea that in order to deal with this tragedy in complex social systems we must organize together to create governance that creates mutual coercion mutually agreed upon.

That was the core of Hardin's work, and the part that George is misrepresenting. Hardin is not a call for laissez faire it is a call for social organization in a democratic society.

Don Bessee

The pasty white elitists are the socialists secret -

Notably, Gallup also finds that “despite recent discussion about the extent of Democrats’ support for Israel, fewer than a third of Democrats in any of the ideological groups say they sympathize more with the Palestinians than the Israelis in the Middle East conflict.” Unfortunately but unsurprisingly, however, anti-Israel sentiment has grown most among liberals, increasing from 23 to 31 percent.

Gallup did not ask about socialism, but a recent YouGov survey offers some strong hints about the subject. Non-whites had roughly the same favorable impression of socialism as registered voters in general, ranging between 22 and 26 percent. But 53 percent of Hillary Clinton voters viewed socialism favorably. Given that Clinton won a large majority of Latinos and overwhelmingly won among African-American voters, the pro-socialism faction is likely disproportionately white. Indeed, the most recent data suggests the Democratic Socialists of America, to which Ocasio-Cortez and Tlaib belong, is roughly 90 percent white.




Go "regulate" yourself Frisch.
Your commieism shows more with every post.

Another sign of the "commies are coming" is the huge anti gun push by the Left. Can't control the people with people with guns who know
how to use them.

Frischy.. forget what Ca. has done? A permit now to buy ammo? DO explain in Proggy speek, the reasoning behind that Commie idea.
And don't even try the "public safety" crap.

Even in D.C. , the anti gun noise echos through the hauls.
Even talks on how to pull the teeth of the 2ND Amend.


S Frisch sez:
"That was the core of Hardin's work, and the part that George is misrepresenting. Hardin is not a call for laissez faire it is a call for social organization in a democratic society."

Hardin seems like a pretty smart dude.

Here's a quote of his:

"Every American schoolchild knows about the Statue of Liberty and the accompanying poem, "Give me your tired, your poor, / Your huddled masses yearning to
be free . . .". Implicitly, our children are doubly deceived. In the first place the official name of the statue is "Liberty Enlightening the World"—that is, bringing light
to the world, educating it: not inviting the whole world to come in. In the second
place there is the implication that the poetry on the base expresses official policy. It
does not. Emma Lazarus's words were added to the base seventeen years after the
statue was erected, and without the blessing of Congress, much less of the multitudes of Americans who might be asked to make room for all the huddled masses"

and, a bit further on:

"Some people recommend that we import immigrants from different cultures,
but the merits of this procedure are dubious. For one thing, most immigrants come
from the poorest strata of the societies that failed to hold them, so they know little
about the best elements of their culture. Here, as in their own country, most immigrants are an underclass and tend to aggregate with their own kind in ghettos. The
theoretical merits of diversity are seldom realized under the common modes of
immigration. Useful diversity is more efficiently attained by transporting images,
ideas, and dreams between geographically fixed populations rather than uprooting
and moving human bodies. Pure information can be moved more cheaply than
information wrapped in human bodies."

Steven Frisch

How interesting that Walt, in addition to I believe some confusing cross posting between the recent Socialism and Treason threads, would boil a discussion of political philosophy down to guns....because, well this is America, and eventually if you scratch a reactionary it comes down to guns, guns, guns, not ideas.

When the youngsters take over Walt my plan is for them to come for your guns. Just as George believes that people who are too stupid to vote shouldn't, I believe that there are people too stupid to own guns. I want them to come right up to your door and say, "Hey, its a new world old man, and if you want to own a gun it must be purchased after a required background check, immediately registered, locked when it is not in use, and transported safely between uses. Wow, how radical.

And Scenes, how interesting that you would find a set of reactionary quotes from Hardin on immigration, he was after all a population researcher, but his contribution to philosophical thought was in ecology. He was also a white nationalist and racist, hence his work is often interpreted by people who place it in that context, thus the belief that his main remedy was privatization.

How nice of you to bring up the fact that intentional misinterpretation of his work is tainted with racism.

Fortunately we can actually read his work and see that interpretation does not match his words. But I also know the intellectually bereft will say, "no one can know his mind and my ignorant interpretation is just as good as your informed one."

Which is the real dumbthing of America.

Steven Frisch



Thanks for the admitting the guilt.
"When the youngsters take over Walt my plan is for them to come for your guns."
Can you guess what I will give them first?
Good luck getting around that pesky 2ND Amend.

BTW. You should see the uptick in reloading machines in the state.
(no permit required)

Fine job of showing your true COMMIE RED colors. Thanks.

And your favorite girl has made the funny pages.
You can bet that will come back to bite..


Well Frisch, I can hold my head high in saying I don't suck off OPM.
Never have.
You can't survive without it. "Vary socialist" of you)


Great......an entire weekend of nonstop Frischian bafflegab!

Glad I had other things to do.


Oh.. as for your racism crap,

Care to hear what Ms. King and family had to say?
"Members of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King’s extended family came out in support of President Trump this week, on the national day of recognition for the civil rights leader.

Isaac Newton Farris Jr. and Alveda King, Dr. King’s nephew and niece, respectively, asserted in interviews that Trump is not a racist."

So make up some more lies about Trump's racism.


re: SteveF "How nice of you to bring up the fact that intentional misinterpretation of his work is tainted with racism."

lol. Dunno how you would misinterpret the quotes that I put up. Gotta copy of Living Within Limits and The Ostrich Factor sitting right here. Happy to quote more. No doubt Hardin is right only to the extent that his beliefs jibe with your feelings, huh?

Personally, I tend to buy into village commons problems, it's just that people love to use those arguments to justify any old thing they like. It's not dissimilar from global warmingcooling in that way. I have a funny feeling that you come to a topic with a preconceived idea and then cast about for justifications.

Steven Frisch


"But I also know the intellectually bereft will say, "no one can know his mind and my ignorant interpretation is just as good as your informed one."

Thanks for making my observation prophetic.

Bill Tozer

Scenes sez:

“re: SteveF "How nice of you to bring up the fact that intentional misinterpretation of his work is tainted with racism."

I did not see any racism in Scene’s quotes. Immigrant is not a race. I suppose if an immigrant is from Norway, that is racism judging by the instantaneous vitriolic reaction to Trump saying we need more skilled and educated immigrants like Norwegians. Man, did Trump hit a raw nerve. Holy Smokes, meritorious immigration policy must be racism judging by the unhinged reaction to Norwegians and the fact only 850 Norwegians allowed to migrate here in 2017. Only 850? What more can I say. The United States harbors racism against Norwegians. The proof is in the pudding. No Norwegians allowed.

The silver lining here is FINALLY we can take a person’s writings and words in context. What a relief. It’s about time. While I confess I am not versed on Hardin’s body of work, I remember some one term (?) GV councilman or somebody blabbing about internalizing the externalities or externalizatizing one’s innards or something about 8 years ago.

It is so refreshing to take things in context. I had grown weary of everything being so
black and white. Flynn is a liar! Well, by those standards, so is that illegal alien lady who lied to the Grass Valley police. Pasquale or something. Think they named a road after her. Pasquale Road is a liar!! No context. No gray areas. Hardin is a racist! Illegal is not a race.
Trigger warning: written by an Orodox Jew.

We always need to remember that from its seizing of the means of production, to its legacy of gulags and mass murder, socialism truly is the most destructive movement in world history. And due to its killing of human purpose, socialism’s victims first and foremost include the socialists themselves.


Steven Frisch

Bill....I think you lost the thread there...quite understandable under the circumstances.

My comment "...intentional misinterpretation of his work is tainted with racism," was referring to George using Hardin as a rationale for privatization, and the fact that Hardin, while being a ecologist, had a sidelight later in life as a white supremacist, board member of the Foundation for American Immigration Reform, and advocate for limiting non-western immigration to the US.

Hardin has become something of a darling of the alt-right over the last decade for his immigration positions, exposing him to an entirely new audience, and that has led to a re-interpretation of his work on the tragedy of the commons to support a set of neoliberal economic policies that were not implied in his original essay or his later work Living Within Limits.

This dynamic is well know in academic and ecological scientific circles where the relevance of his work has been very hotly debated. Because the frame of all of Hardin's writing is through the lens of limiting population it has led to a very controversial set of social or cultural 'regulations' he studied and at times supported, including widespread abortion rights, eugenics, forced sterilization, racial limits to immigration, and euthanasia.

Hardin did not invent the idea that there are positive and negative externalities in economics; that distinction goes to British economist Arthur Pigou.

Bill Tozer

Well, Steve, the waters certainly have been muddied, per usual. Not unique to RR. Just read the comments on any issue raised across the land on any site from any publication.

Socialism has a sterling record of being unsustainable. I can see why some recoil from the label. Younger people not so much. Just last night moi was breaking down poll numbers by age group and as of this snapshot in time, Bernie owns the youth, Biden rocks the over 55 age group. Not surprising. I remember MSM commmeting about the lack of young women at Hillary appearances early in 2016. One MSM reporter covering the HRC campaign could find only paid young females at one appearance and a few that said their mothers made them come. S o much so that Gloria Steinem wondered the same thing (about where are alll the young females?) and said in a moment of candor, “they are at Bernie’s cause that’s where all the boys are”....to paraphrase and set off a firestorm between the 1st wave feminists and the 3rd feminists. :). The future belongs to the youth, as it should. You don’t speak for me Gloria or telll me what to think. I can think for myself!!! :)

“represents the youngest and most animated faction of the left, which is to say the future.

The thing is, Bernie hasn’t changed in his 40 years in politics. It has been the Democratic Party, whose conception of policy is now almost indistinguishable from his, that has dramatically transformed. The perceptible differences between Sanders and Warren, Harris, Beto O’Rourke, and Kirsten Gillibrand are tactics and timelines, not endgames.

Isn’t it odd that not a single Democratic Party leader has been critical of Sanders’ collectivist ideology? This is a politician who went to the Soviet Union as a 47-year-old man, not as a radicalized 20-something, and praised one of the worst tyrannies in history. Will any 2020 Democrat presidential candidate condemn him for his adulation of Cuban, Venezuelan, and Nicaraguan socialism? Will anyone condemn him for having nicer things to say about nations with gulags, political executions, and mass starvation than he does for the United States?


Steven Frisch

Bill I believe you are mistaking me for one who is arguing for the sustainability of socialism, as evidenced by my comments below.

Posted by: Steven Frisch | 23 February 2019 at 11:27 AM
"The vast majority of those currently being labeled socialists are not...they are mixed market economy advocates. Almost no one labeled a socialist is advocating ending the economic system based private ownership of the means of production, myself included."

Posted by: Steven Frisch | 23 February 2019 at 07:36 PM
"But in the end I am a mixed market economy guy...you can call me whatever you want to...but words have meanings, and the word socialist has a meaning, and I'm not a socialist. But hey, you can think whatever you want."

What I am arguing for is a more focused and efficient effort within our mixed market economy to address the growing problem of income inequality...and we do that all the time...and have for more than 150 years. We do that through tax policy, social welfare programs (which are not 'socialism') like medicare, medicaid, social security, unemployment insurance, disability insurance and workforce employment and training programs.

I believe that private ownership and private capital remains the best and most efficient way to allocate resources, but recognize that even in a market economy there are market failures.

We see these market failures evert day.

Public goods are a prime example because non-paying consumers have the right to use these goods and are thus excluded from market mechanisms to price them (clean air, water, biological diversity, etc.)

Failure of market control on the supply side (monopoly) or even on the demand side where buyers can temporarily set the prices below the value of the goods and services (think of the buying position Walmart once held or that Amazon is creating.)

Failure to price and thus punish or reward negative externalities (pollution poverty, etc) and positive externalities (education, health care, etc.)

Finally there is the market failure associated with unknown consequences or imperfect information...these are cases where the demand price does not reflect all benefits of a good or the supply price does not reflect all opportunity costs of production.

Yes eventually a truly free market would eventually normalize many of these costs, but the damage done in the interim could be impossible to remediate or the social unrest created could lead to political and economic collapse.

This is WHY we have a mixed market economy...because we looked into the abyss in 1837, 1873, 1893, 1929 and 2008 and recognize that the cost of failure is too high for society to bear.

Bill Tozer

No Steve, I am not arguing your believes in the least. In fact, I stopped reading your post after the first sentence. Sorry., will read it later.

I simply agrued the topic of “unstainable socialism”, which judging by the few socialist countries there are, is not even debatable. There are no Democrat Socialists, only Socialist Dictatorships.

On to the Sandbox. Caio...

Steven Frisch

Posted by: Bill Tozer | 25 February 2019 at 10:23 AM

How remarkably passive aggressive of you Mr. Tozer. Have you considered psychoanalysis to address the underlying cause of the problem?

George Rebane

For a more accurate perspective and sober elucidation of what are claimed ‘market failures’, I recommend reading the 22jan19 Policy Analysis from Cato, ‘How “Market Failure” Arguments Lead to Misguided Policy’.

The notion of ‘externalities’ tied to economic activities serve mainly political ends to ram through tax and regulatory policies that otherwise would stand naked without a basis. The problem with applying externalities is that in the largest share of cases there is no single point of cost or benefit that is impacted by cited externalities. However, that their citations sound plausible is the main benefit of including them. From the Cato essay’s Executive Summary - ”Market failure” is a common justification for new government policies. Proponents of interventions love to point to instances of apparently imperfect markets and assume that government taxation, subsidies, and regulation can seamlessly perfect them, thus maximizing social welfare.

Academic economists have long doubted this way of thinking. Comparing market outcomes to some unattainable and unidentifiable ideal is not useful in a world of imperfect knowledge and government failure. It is far better to compare outcomes from an intervention against actual realistic alternatives. Yet public debate often seems stuck on this rudimentary understanding of what market failure is and how it should be dealt with.

Worse, in many instances this basic framework of market failure is misused, leading to misguided policies. Government services, for example, are often labeled public goods even when they do not fulfill economists’ definition of public goods as being nonrivalrous and nonexcludable, and in situations where markets have clearly found means of delivery without government. This creates the public perception that some goods and services must be provided by government simply because they are or could be.

Likewise, proponents of Pigouvian taxation to address negative externalities often exaggerate how high these taxes should be by including private costs (such as lost productivity) as external costs, failing to apply the logic of dealing with externalities consistently, and ignoring how taxes affect the demand for substitute products, which themselves can generate negative externalities. Externality arguments are also often used to justify uniform consumption taxes even when only certain consumption levels generate the external costs, and they are increasingly used to justify outright bans on various goods. Both responses can lower social welfare.

Don Bessee

Will the socialists go extinct?

Democratic socialist Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-NY) suggested on Sunday night that people should consider not having children due to climate change because there is a "scientific consensus" that life will be hard for kids.

"Our planet is going to hit disaster if we don't turn this ship around and so it's basically like, there's a scientific consensus that the lives of children are going to be very difficult," Ocasio-Cortez said while chopping up food in her kitchen during an Instagram live video. "And it does lead, I think, young people to have a legitimate question, you know, 'Is it okay to still have children?'"



Steven Frisch

George, a question: If a single point of cost or benefit impacted by externalities can be identified would you agree that those should be rewarded or taxed?

For example: If a single point source dumps 1,000 lbs. of X in the water and an immediately downstream water treatment plant spends $100,000 removing that 1,000 lbs. of X should the discharger pay the cost of removal?


StevenF: "Hardin did not invent the idea that there are positive and negative externalities in economics; that distinction goes to British economist Arthur Pigou."

I had always run into the name "William Lloyd" in that context, but horses for courses.

It's not a new idea I'd say, although any good idea has a thousand inventors. There's plenty of medieval legal work involving common areas and their treatment.

No doubt someone could find a Roman essay on the idea.

An interesting problem with the atmosphere as a commons is that it inevitably leads you to worldwide rules and standards. In turn, you get 'environmental justice' and the like, which is basically funds transfer from here to there.

Dunno how people will really clean up the planet. It's is (and will be) mostly Asian plastics/chemicals and greenhouse output followed by African overpopulation. Good luck on veering that boat.

Bill Tozer

“How remarkably passive aggressive of you Mr. Tozer. Have you considered psychoanalysis to address the underlying cause of the problem?”

Lol. Did I offend ya again? Come on, my little roley poley. I agree with you. The socialist countries are Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela, and probably one there I forgot. So, you taught me something. I get it. And you always said that you believed capitalism is the best and most efficient system....long before this current post, titled “Unsustainable Socialism”, which is an unassailable position to defend. No one in their right mind defends socialism.

See, I can’t call you pinko anymore cause you don’t believe in gobberment controlling, owning, or runnng the means and production, or means of production., Boopsie. Now, Bernie Sanders is just a naked commie hiiding behind the meaningless label ‘Democrat Socialist’, Diimples.

Yes I once went to a head shinier and told him I felt insecure. He told me to get under the couch. He asked me if I drink and I said, “Got any, Doc?” He just cleared his throat and moved on. When the session ended, I told him the check I just handed him was no good. I was mesmerized watching his face turn this bright red and the vein on the side of his temple started sticking out and throbbing and getting bigger and bigger. I never seen such a signt. I thought was the vein was going to explode and make a mess all over his office. I told he that he should go to anger management and he popped his cork. Oh my, that poor man looked like he could some Xanex or Thorazine or a hot shot of something as welll as some good therapy. What a psycho. I never went back, cutie boots.

Bill Tozer

Moi @ 3:11 pm

Opps. Typo. Should read, “Yes, I once went to a head shrinker....”

And, Steve, lest I be amiss, the shaken man said I was a walking Encyclopedia of Worthless Information, a label I use to this day. See, you can learn something from everyone, even you, sweet cheeks.. I learned you are not a pinko.....or so you say. Insert smiley face here and move on to bigger challenges.

Todd Juvinall

Frisch, take some grant money and head to Venezuela. We need a first-hand report on how socialism is working there and you seem to know a lot about it. Thanks. Waiting for that report.

George Rebane

SteveF 1216pm – Good question Steve. Your question, however, applies only to what is known as a ‘toy economy’ and not the real world. As you must surely know, ‘externalities’ for a given economic activity are not inscribed indelibly on stone tablets from the mountain, instead they are defined in as many different ways as there people to define them. Why? Because every set of externalities is tied to a utility function that the remediating payment for the externalities is supposed to extremize. ALL utility functions are subjective in their very nature, so there are an uncountable number of UFs out there – no doubt yours does not look anything like mine – and people have yet to come close to defining a policy supporting even a general ‘common good’ UF on which they can agree. So in the real world, any imposed payment for defined externalities is merely an exercise of raw political power, and NOT the application of a precise scalpel to surgically correct/mitigate economic behavior.

Were it otherwise, and we all agreed on a UF, and the list of related externalities, and the relevant socio-behavioral response model, and the monetary utilities for impacted participants, and …, then yes, we can propose a schema to include the costs of externalities impacted by various economic behaviors. Thanks for bringing this up.

Don Bessee

From the horses ass's mouth although its hard to tell the difference with all his shit flying. Comrade Bernie is at least consistent, consistently on the wrong side of history. -

“One of the things that I think I learned on my trip, you know, as a socialist, the word socialism does not frighten me,” Sanders said. “I think it’s probably fair to say that the Nicaraguan government is primarily a socialist government.”

Last week, Sanders, a self-described socialist who recently announced his bid for the 2020 presidential election, faced scrutiny from his Democratic colleagues after he refused to label Venezuela’s Nicolas Maduro a dictator, or Juan Guaidó as the nation’s interim president.



Bill Tozer

Don @ 6:51 pm.

Yo, Bernie. Have you looked in the mirror lately??

“....Cuba. I was a kid and I remember that. It just seemed right and appropriate that poor people were rising up against the rich ugly people.”
Breadline Bernie? Good one. That Trump is a witty guy. You can see it in Trumps eyes when he talks about Bernie that he (Trump) always has had a soft spot for Bernie. Trump always felt and has voiced countless times that it was a shame how Hillary and the Clinton Industrial Complex screwed Bernie over. A point of intersectionality. Despite the pet names, he treats Bernie with kid gloves.
Ok, what’s the point? The point is perhaps I have been too harsh on Socialism. Consider this: America has an obesity crisis going on right now. It’s affecting our recruiting for the Army as too many young people are too fat to make the cut. It’s affecting our healthcare costs as diabetes, heart disease, and other ailments rise and our fitness decline as a direct result of this obesity crisis. It’s a national health problem and disgrace.

Now consider Venezula. The average Venezulan has lost 17 pounds in recent months. Multiple that by the total population and that is a lot of pounds shed. They do not have an obesity crisis, now do they? Always a silver lining.

Steven Frisch

Posted by: George Rebane | 25 February 2019 at 05:39 PM

I'll get back to this after I am caught up on snow.

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