Post-citizenship America (updated 28apr19)

George Rebane

[This is the addended transcript of my regular KVMR commentary broadcast on 24 April 2019.  A slightly edited version also appears in the 27apr19 issue of The Union.]

Perhaps no recent issue of national contention illustrates the differences of how our two polarized sides see the future direction of America than does the debate about whether the 2020 census should include the citizenship question.  The original intent of the census had to do with redistricting and reapportionment.  That intent was carried out with our census from 1820 to 1950 by counting American citizens, which then determined membership in the House of Representatives and the Electoral College for the several states.  In the 20^th century an accurate citizen count provided by the census was also used to determine the allocation of federal dollars back to the states under various programs that Congress legislated.

Later, a count of citizens was also required to redraw congressional district boundaries under the Voting Rights Act.  To enforce that law, the so-called “majority minority” districts must be so drawn so that at least 50% of the voters – i.e. citizens over 18 – are members of the minority in question.  Moreover, the one-person, one-vote principle requires that congressional districts contain essentially the same number of people.  All of these requirements and more, that allow our republic to function, require a meaningful count of the nation’s citizens.

The fundamental question of apportionment comes down to how accurate citizenship data might affect the number of House seats and Electoral College votes.  A recent Supreme Court ruling based apportionment on all “persons” physically present in a state as required by the Constitution.  And here started the debate about what was really meant by ‘persons’, ‘inhabitants’, ‘citizens’, and so on.  Lawyers and legal scholars David Rivkin and Richard Raile dissect all this in their piece entitled ‘Should Noncitizens Be Represented in Congress?’.  The short form of the national sentiment is that the Right says no and the Left says yes.

Each side’s view is part and parcel of the opposite directions in which they see the future of our country.  The Left sees America as part of a globalist world in which national borders essentially disappear, people will migrate freely and in perpetuity from here to there, and citizenship in a sovereign nation-state becomes as moot as the sovereignty of the nation-states themselves.  The Right sees a future world of sovereign nation-states enduring in a global community, connected by peaceful, mutually beneficial trade and commerce; a community which sustains the rich diversity of cultures because each of them has a secure homeland in which people may pass on to future generations their treasured traditions, customs, beliefs, language, and arts.  Such would be a world of ‘globalization’ as opposed to the one-world government of ‘globalism’.

Almost all countries today count their citizens for more than the reasons given above as globalization becomes the new world order in the community of nations.  The forces opposing this in America declare and seek its ‘fundamental transformation’, the prerequisite of which is the demolition of our democratic republic and the rewriting of our Constitution, this so as to change the United States into a compliant region with a population that has turned its back on the country’s history and its European heritage.  Today the most effective and rapid way to achieve this is through permanently porous borders, while blurring the distinction between American citizens, legal aliens, and illegal aliens who inhabit the land.  First and foremost, what must be changed is the law stating that “anyone who enters the US unlawfully is subject to involuntary removal and thus cannot be considered an inhabitant in the constitutional sense.”

The precise mechanism for this fundamental transformation of America is to restructure congressional districts in a manner that amplifies the country’s leftwing voter base to create permanent Democrat super-majorities in both houses of Congress, as has already happened in Sacramento  It is easy to see how that can be achieved by first creating publicized welcoming sanctuaries that invite and succor the millions of illegals pouring over our border, and then counting citizens and non-citizens alike to achieve the desired reapportionment before ultimately granting the vote to all residents.  It is then that our republic will fade away to be replaced by a manipulable and manipulated democracy that will see little use in retaining any of the institutions and values that gave rise to America’s greatness.

My name is Rebane, and I also expand on this and related themes on Rebane’s Ruminations where the addended transcript of this commentary is posted with relevant links, and where such issues are debated extensively.  However, my views are not necessarily shared by KVMR.  Thank you for listening.

[Addendum] The careful reader will have noticed my use of ‘perpetuity’, ‘permanent’, and ‘permanently’.  I include these words to facilitate the definition of the Left’s anti-Americans as those residents who strive daily for that fundamental transformation which in its process abandons, or more forcefully ejects, the institutions and values which have made America the desired destination or template for so many of the world’s billions.

Beginning with its core, today most of America’s Left are proudly anti-American.  In that cohort their political party of choice is still the Democratic Party.  However, that may soon change as the party’s confused traditional leadership continues to have problems with the party’s new and assumptive leaders who are all collectivists of the socialist cum communist hue.  In the earlier days of 20^th century America, being tagged as a socialist was the kiss of political death to the extent that in mid-century the American Socialist Party was forced to close its doors and meld with the Democrats.

Today, after almost three generations of progressive public schooling and its co-option of journalism, many Americans have no idea of socialism’s history and impact on the people in countries where it has been and continues to be practiced.  Especially with the current denigration of capitalism, now in vogue, America’s main street looks at socialism as just another way to run a country that might alleviate all of our much-ballyhooed social aches and pains (racism, income equality, social justice, …).  No one on the Left is telling these folks that embracing the politics of Bernie, Liz, and AOC will fundamentally transform America on its road to globalism.  That kind of messaging is still a no-no (as witnessed also in these pages).

However, today the national emergency at our southern border makes it easy to apply a litmus test that allows the country’s middle-roaders to unambiguously identify the anti-Americans in our midst.  These are people who first and foremost oppose secure borders, claiming them to be everything from racist, through ineffectual and illegal, to inhumane and discriminatory.  To them the notion of porous borders - with millions of migrants of all types entering illegally - being a preamble to national suicide is anathema.  The acid test one can always apply is to ask one of them what policies they have in mind that will stem the flow and return illegal border crossings to bygone norms.  The anti-American has no answer to that question, nor does he consider the question to be important for the simple reason that the arrival of such masses of migrants is the new norm for a transformed America.

Currently, in the sense defined, every Democrat, either running for president or in their congressional leadership, is anti-American.  Of course, they will not admit the label as they continue to foment and perpetuate the invasion of illegal aliens across our borders and into their unlawful sanctuaries once here.  The astute observer need only ignore their talk and watch their walk.

[28apr19 update]  Steven Frisch, the county’s pre-eminent leftwing intellectual, immediately took a swing at my Union column, and as usual, totally missed.  (The man is my longtime, most enduring critic, and for that I am grateful for all the pedagogical opportunities his contributions provide.)  He opens his latest critique with –

“The Constitution never directed that the census count citizens, it coulnted pesons, admittedly at times in a flawed manner, but it counted persons, and apportioned legisaltive seats based on that count.”  (It’s apparent from his typos that he wrote and submitted this in some level of agitation.  You can read his entire comment here.)

Frisch takes me to task on the Framers’ intent to base House representation on the number of Americans in a geographical region naturally implied that these Americans were to be citizens, a notion and term which at that time was in its infancy in our republic (see also its use in revolutionary France).  There was no intent at the framing or later to apportion congressional membership on the basis of the count of foreigners, those who had no loyalty to the newly formed republic, nor the desire to establish their lives there.  

The notion of formal citizenship at the end of the 18^th century was therefore somewhat novel.  And as Rivkin and Raile point out, the word ‘citizens’ in the Constitution’s original draft was stylistically changed (by the drafters’ Committee on Style and Arrangement) to the more broadly understood ‘persons’ with the understanding that the original implication of citizenship remained unchanged.   Of course, all these fine points, and the subsequent legal debate on the wordsmithing with respect to redistricting and reapportionment, which I subsequently reference, is missed or cynically ignored by those ideologically bent like Frisch.  We can expect no more from his following.

The bottom line is that our Framers wanted the country’s population count to accurately form the legitimate basis for constituting its legislature.  They were painfully aware of the porosity of America’s borders through which foreigners passed with little or no hindrance, many staying or conducting business for some time and then departing.  None of these were people (men only) intended to be franchised and counted for federal elections, and even most local elections.  That today this history has been mangled by progressive education into some kind of inclusive ‘y’all come and vote’ era is nothing but sinister fiction, imbibed daily for some years now by students that most likely included Steven Frisch.

So, the national debate on including the ‘citizenship question’ in the census continues.  The outcome now slightly favors the Constitution and standing law that specifies it is the prerogative of the Secretary of Commerce (under which the Census Bureau resides) to determine the form and content of the census questionnaire.  The portion of our electorate that endured Great Society education and today consumes lamestream media for its news, if that, is dismally ignorant of the relevant factors that impact this debate.  And local thought leaders like Frisch are in place nationwide to assure that their minions’ horizons are not broadened.

Comments

[Barry Pruett]

Thanks George. Great read and shared it on Facebook.

[L]

Better than"well said". L

[scenes]

Which leads you to a redrawing of political boundaries.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6952797/CLAIRE-FOX-explains-reasons-standing-European-election-candidate-Brexit-Party.html

[Bill Tozer]

You never know what SCOTUS will do, but....if you give something away, don’t expect the court to fix it. Congress has failed to do it’s constitutional duty for too long by passing the heavy lifting off to the Executive Branch. Separation of powers means what it says. The court should honor Congress’s wishes to have the Commerce Department run the show. It’s what Congress did to themselves. They passed the law and the buck and now want their power back, lol.

“It’s in moments like this when the contrast between progressive and conservative approaches to jurisprudence can grow most stark. The progressive looks at the pattern above and demands that the Court fix the problem. The conservative looks at that same pattern and says, “If you don’t like the law, change it.”

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/04/in-the-census-litigation-the-trump-administration-should-prevail/

[Gregory]

There's a sadness when the usual suspects realize the SCOTUS isn't tilting left anymore...

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/supreme-court-s-census-decision-could-hand-control-electoral-college-ncna997841

As a proud radical centrist, I say it's late, but better late than never.

Of course the decision to ask "the question" is politically motivated. So are the apoplectic fits suffered by the left.

There are scary threats to heads of households if questions aren't answered. If you don't answer, a census employee will call to ask them. I have found that being friendly and polite but saying with conviction that the answers I gave are all the government needs answered for the purposes of apportioning congressional districts. No, I won't tell you how many indoor toilets we got.

I won't have a problem saying we're US citizens in this house.

[Ozz]

"today most of America’s Left are proudly anti-American."

Total bullshit. More like: "Today most of America's left are proudly anti Rebane's version of what America should be." I have many Republican friends who don't even come close to buying into your extreme racist and black and white version of reality. Are they anti-American because they are anti conservauthoritarianismist or whatever convoluted name you've invented for yourself?

[scenes]

Ozzz sez: "what America should be."

See, that's your basic problem. You want to build a Year Zero America with wondrous new attitudes and folkways.

Of course, the Blue Mob has no clue where you end up if they get the reins, but they just *know* how much better it'll be. Truth is, it's hard to build a system based on a hatred of tradition.

[Gregory]

"extreme racist and black and white version of reality"
-"Ozz"

If that isn't the pot calling the kettle black.

While I cringe at George's use of "anti-American", it's less jarring than your ("Ozz") denouncement of Rebane as "extreme racist". Nothing in this post of George's is racist in any way, shape or form. Nor is anything else I can remember him writing.

I recall socks calling me a traitor here when I wouldn't dispute Trump's election. That was ugly too. Was that you, "Ozz"? Is that why you hide behind a sockpuppet?

[fish]

Posted by: scenes | 25 April 2019 at 03:52 PM

Of course, the Blue Mob has no clue where you end up if they get the reins, but they just *know* how much better it'll be. Truth is, it's hard to build a system based on a hatred of tradition.

The chickenshit never would tell me where he wanted to put the re-education camps…..err…..Joycamps……sorry! Regardless, I'm sure the the SBC will be in the vanguard of proper siting, permitting, and safe and environmentally friendly operation of these high quality facilities!

[Ozz]

Gregory-
"Raghead" isn't racist enough for you?
"Today most of America’s Left are proudly anti-American" isn't black and white enough for you?

[Robert Cross]

Today most trump conservatives are proudly pro-Nazi.

[Todd Juvinall]

The democrat party is pro-Nazi BoobieD, the R's are all about freedom. You need to stop drinking so much hooch.

[fish]

Posted by: Roberta Cross | 25 April 2019 at 04:47 PM

Nice! With that post you maintain your 100% idiocy rating! Well done Roberta…..I didn't think you had it in you!

[George Rebane]

re Ozz 443pm - Another load of evidence that the Left can't think their way out of a paper bag. I have meticulously defined my use of the terms 'Raghead' and 'anti-American'. But attempting to communicate with a progressive is as profitable as explaining linear algebra to a freshly painted corral post. Their mind is filled up with indelible and immutable slogans, and new information just washes off them like water off a ... .

BTW, Ozz couldn't give a definition of racism that ties it to 'raghead' if his life depended on it.

[fish]

Posted by: Ozz | 25 April 2019 at 04:43 PM

"Raghead" isn't racist enough for you?

OMG……such a delicate flower……. and this from a guy who brags about being raised on the mean streets of Chicago!

[Robert Cross]

Oh really Froggy 5:09 ;; George can state what ever bullshit stupid thing he wants like "Today most of America’s Left are proudly anti-American" and the less than intelligent, as in you and Todd, cheer vehemently. But when the same phraseology is turned around you bitch like 4th graders who lost their playground rights for starting fights rather than, what intelligent folks would do... which is to see the stupidity and irony of such a statement in the first place.

[Gregory]

"Today most trump conservatives are proudly pro-Nazi"
-Bobbie

I'd say every single "trump conservative" I've met are proudly anti-Nazi.

I've never met a Nazi but, I suspect, they're mostly pro-Trump to try to hitch their wagons to something moving forward. Like David Duke who has claimed to be GOP and claimed to be basically Libertarian. Anything but what he is.

So, Bobbie, I'd say you're full of crap on your claim.

[Robert Cross]

George 5:10 -- You can define your terms however you wish but that doesn't change the connotative meaning people will apply in deciphering your messages. You are aware of this and do it intentionally.. kind of your snarky little way to cast shade and yet maintain a degree of deniability.. You know ..'who George.. He ain't no racist because he invented a definition that gets him off the hook. Not too unlike AG Barr's interpretation of the Meuller report.. no crime here because footballs don't have fenders.

[George Rebane]

RobertC 556pm - Is defining one's terms in a debate repulsive to you and yours? Would you like to debate only when you can define the terms for both sides?

Why don't you try defining some of your own terms and see how that helps make sense of your positions?

[Todd Juvinall]

It is quite evident to all that BoobieC and OOZE are racists and anti-American. If I saw any praise of the country I might think of you two moons differently. But nope. Nothing comes out of your pie holes that a Patriot would recognize. You call people NAZI and then are upset someone says "raghead"? Do you see why we all think you are a moron? Get off the sauce and go to bed before you hurt yourself.

[Gregory]

"Truth is, it's hard to build a system based on a hatred of tradition."

It's actually pretty easy to get the ball rolling. Just watched with the missus an Anthony Bourdain "No Reservations" in Cambodia (2009). Much was said by AB about the changes in Cambodia from the first time he visited, before the "KR" took over, and the last time when everything had changed, for the worse.

The Khmer Rouge were socialist, to remind everyone. Not the touchy feely good kind that flap their lips in western societies nowadays. But the KR also had their identity politics down pat.

[Bill Tozer]

Love to see Bobbie pout so. Warms the cockles of me heart.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IBzZu7hSUSk

Shorter

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zXI9qGhLHmo

[Gregory]

"Gregory-
"Raghead" isn't racist enough for you?
"Today most of America’s Left are proudly anti-American" isn't black and white enough for you?"
-"Ozzie"

Is that all you got?

I've taken George to task about "raghead" but I understand his reasons. And "anti-American", even though there are a helluvalot of folks on the left who seem to hate the America that I love and grew up with.

Free enterprise? Privacy for everyone? Including Donald Trump's tax returns? Or just privacy for the good folks on the left?

How about statues of George Washington, or Thomas Jefferson. Should they be taken down from the public sphere because they lived in North America with the economic systems the British left us with? What about cleansing the south of references to Robert E. Lee?

Have you ever called me or anyone else "a denier", Bobbie? WHat about under your real name, not the sock puppet you're fisting at the moment.

[fish]

Posted by: Roberta Cross | 25 April 2019 at 05:49 PM

Really.....there are days I can’t tell who’s the biggest lefty whiner.

(I gotta tell you though.....you are always a strong contender)

[Scott O]

Cross Bobby - "Today most trump conservatives are proudly pro-Nazi."
Poor soul - reduced to spittle blowing insults.
Most? Are you sure it's not every single one?
There are millions of 'trump conservatives' and yet Bobby can't name a single one who's 'proudly pro-NAZI'.
Yet he is convinced most of them are, without any proof, reason or facts.
Better get your story straight with Emery - he claims he knows about every NAZI in this country.

[Don Bessee]

Conspiracy to obstruct justice? I suspect there may be a federal reaction to this one -

An executive order by King County, Washington, Executive Dow Constantine signed this week bans the Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agency from using the King County International Airport, commonly known as Boeing Field, to deport all illegal aliens from the country, including those convicted of crimes against Americans.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/04/25/sanctuary-airports-washington-state-official-bans-deportation-of-criminal-illegal-aliens/

;-)

[scenes]

DonB's article lead me to this:

https://www.foxnews.com/us/massachusetts-judge-who-helped-illegal-immigrant-escape-ice-arrest-indicted-federal-authorities-say

"A Massachusetts judge and court officer accused of helping an illegal immigrant flee an Immigration and Customs Enforcement agent waiting to take him into custody were indicted Thursday by a federal grand jury for obstruction of justice and three other counts, officials said."

Well, that's a terribly sad story. You do have to wonder how far the Blue Mob is willing to go in the name of Open Borders activism. It's a heckuva strange thing to fight a civil war over, but c'est la vie.

[scenes]

...a more original source.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-ma/pr/massachusetts-district-court-judge-and-court-officer-indicted-obstruction-justice

"BOSTON – A Massachusetts District Court Judge and Trial Court Officer were indicted today in federal court in Boston on obstruction of justice charges for preventing an ICE Officer from taking custody of an alien defendant. "

(I like this part)

"According to court documents, on March 30, 2018, Newton Police arrested and charged an alien defendant under Massachusetts General Law with being a fugitive from justice and narcotics possession. Further investigation revealed that the defendant had twice been deported from the United States - in 2003 and 2007, and that a federal order had been issued prohibiting the defendant from entering the U.S. until 2027. "

[Don Bessee]

Drain that resistance swamp, its not just in DC @1014

;-)

[AVMan]

,,,@GeorgeR,,,divide much??? Gotta love how you have simplistically (((for the simpleton peanut poppers here))) defined Democrats as ‘’’anti-Americans’’’

And by extension of course you mean the Ryghtys are the chosen ones,,,the only true Americans!!!!

BWAHAHAHAHAHA

[Ozz]

Yes Aqua Velva. George Orwell has nothing on George Rebane. The biggest difference is that Orwell knew he was telling a story. Rebane believes he's saving America so it can be enjoyed by those with American Values (as only an Estonian can define)..

Nazi is not at all inaccurate, regardless how they spin themselves. Actually Todd is too stupid to be an idealist, he's "just taking orders" "Doing as he's told".

[Todd Juvinall]

OOZE and AVman are the true fascists here and elsewhere. hut down speech, frame opponents for crimes they did not commit. Steal the Medicare and welfare money. File phony EITC and rip off the true Americans money. And open borders for all. Yep you are the fascists while the others here are true Americans. You got it right.

[Ozz]

"America is made of either fascists or True Americans." Yes Todd, so we've been told, thank you for clarifying the black and white position this board.

[Todd Juvinall]

Yes you are so transparent a three-year-old can see you are a fascist. You are welcome.

[George Rebane]

re AV 759am - the illustrations continue. Nowhere in this post were all Democrats described as anti-American, a label, my use of which, I have carefully defined. However, as noted above, liberals are usually not capable of reasoned debate, for they all seem to have a deficit in understanding and/or accepting the nuanced semantics of the used lexicon. For them, language is an ever-shrinking set of words, each with fixed, multiple, and indelible meanings. And their claimed logic - e.g. "And by extension of course you mean the Ryghtys are the chosen ones,,,the only true Americans!!!!" - is essentially non-existent.

One wonders how these intellectual pinheads would do attempting to read a text on mathematics, physics, engineering, computer science, molecular biology, ... in which authors constantly introduce new words and revise the definitions of previously used terms to better explicate the new ideas they present. Expanding science and technology belong to one of the few areas in which the use of language needs to be both dynamic and concurrently precise - seen correctly, words are just variables to be defined carefully, and then used contextually to form more complex statements, propositions, and ideas.

Such mental exercises seem to be either cynically rejected by liberals and/or simply outside their ken. The years of this weblog contain hundreds (thousands?) of examples illustrating how the grassroots leftwing handles contextually defined words (especially new ones) in the discussion/debate of socio-political issues.

There is no hope for any enlightenment in this regard. And that is one of the mainstays of the Great Divide argument. Not only do we not share any communicable common ground, but one side does not even possess the tools to join in the fashioning of a semantic that can serve as the nascent framework for building something that can bridge meaning, so that a profitable conversation can begin.

[fish]

Posted by: Ozz | 26 April 2019 at 09:19 AM

Why so defensive......the "Black and White" argument is the one you pinheads have been running since the sixties! Don't lose your nerve now!

Remember....there are only Progressives and The Radiant Future and the "Past" mannnnnnnn!

(Hey....anybody got odds on how many in the democrat presidential field succumb to the inevitable cold hand of death before the election.....so many geriatrics....!)

[Bill Tozer]

“But whether or not Ross was entirely candid about the origins of the discussion, the administration isn’t wrong to worry about the implications of the census on their legal mandate to ensure a “one person, one vote” standard for the process of determining representation in Congress. Instead of an attempt to undercount Hispanics and minorities, what is really at stake in this debate is Democrats’ effort to blur the line between citizens and non-citizens to create or maintain House districts where those who are legally unable to vote will exist in large numbers or even predominate. Legal voters (who would presumably be more likely to be Democrats) in such districts would wield more power than those in other districts in which there are far fewer non-citizens.“
~
“The goal of the census is to count every person residing in the country. But the notion that its purpose is to ensure that those who are subject to deportation are as entitled to representation in Congress as U.S. citizens is as bizarre as it is untenable. It also makes a mockery of the principle of “one person, one vote” that is at the core of the Voting Rights Act.”

https://thefederalist.com/2019/04/26/democrat-objections-citizenship-question-ploy-help-illegal-aliens-vote/

[Gregory]

Toes 1246pm

I expect the Citizenship question is the fallout from the lack of cooperation the Trump administration had with its attepted survey of registered voters two years ago. OK, so instead, they'll get a census with citizens and a count of non-citizens.

Remember the caterwalling?

[Ozz]

George-
Since lexicon seems to be today's whirligig, please elucidate for those of us with only a university education, what is a "True American". Is a True American the same as a Patriot or an extreme right wing Christian conservative?

True American, as in Todd's "you are the fascists while the others here are true Americans."

[George Rebane]

Ozz 313pm - BTW, the development and expansion of this blog's lexicon has been what in your world is a "whirligig" for its entire history. Thanks for picking up on it.

And why do you ask me to "elucidate" on what is a "True American", since that is a term I have never used and consider to convey more waste heat than light? Perhaps those who use the term should let us in on their sense of its usage. For example, how do you characterize a person with such an appellation?

But you did surprise me with the announcement that you have a university education. If you told us before, I'm sorry to have missed it, because it would be most interesting to know what you studied where.

[Gregory]

Ozz... If your University education was in what used to be called a ”State College", that would explain why you want GR to define a term that only you, the other lefty sock and Todd are using.

The CSU let just about everyone in.

[Scott O]

Oooze - "Nazi is not at all inaccurate, regardless how they spin themselves."
I don't suppose you could offer any actual proof?
Easy to do that kind of name calling behind the keyboard. There a few folks out there that would have you coughing up your teeth if you tried that sort of BS in public.

[Ozz]

I guess we'll wait for Todd do define True American since he brought the term into play.

[Todd Juvinall]

Hey I am using me as the example. There, easy to see.

[Paul Emery]

Trumps ideal for a great man is Robert E Lee.

"“Whether you like it or not, he was one of the great generals. I have spoken to many generals here, right at the White House, and many people thought — of the generals, they think that he was maybe their favorite general,” Trump said of the Confederate military leader."

[Scott O]

Paul - are trying to appear an idiot or what?
You claim that "Trumps ideal for a great man is Robert E Lee." He didn't say that, but lying about it is par for your course.
The proof you offer is “Whether you like it or not, he was one of the great generals. I have spoken to many generals here, right at the White House, and many people thought — of the generals, they think that he was maybe their favorite general,”...
There is a difference between what you think of a person as a humanitarian and what that person accomplishes in their professional role.
History acknowledges that Lee was indeed a very good tactician and general.
The Union had some crappy generals who didn't like African descent folk any more than the KKK.
I realize your limited view of history doesn't allow any kind of nuance, but you might want to become a little more educated before you shoot your mouth off.

[Paul Emery]

Why didn't he laud the Great American Generals of WWI or II or great Union Generals such as Grant but no, he picks the General who was responsible for more American deaths than any other. Sure, Rommel was a "Great General" as well right Scott.

[Don Bessee]

Note to the pony tail of ignorance, the North wanted Lee to lead their army. Black Jack Pershing? Why don't you tell us all about him since you claim to know so much about military history.

I would submit that the Union Generals before Grant and Sherman rose to the top were responsible for the most deaths due to weakness and incompetence.

;-)

[Todd Juvinall]

Trump was correct that Lee was a geat General. And it was in the context of the Charlottesville riots caused by the commies and the nazis slow dancing. All that was caused by the history cleaners trying to rid the toen of the Lee statue. Perfectly done by Trump. Of course Paul Emery and his pals all lie about what Trump said that day.

[scenes]

Well, thank goodness he didn't peg Manstein as a good general. We'd never hear the end of it.

The only thing worse would be for Trump to declare that Sheridan was talented. No doubt the Mob is plotting how to tear down his statue even now.

[Don Bessee]

Lets keep this shit in context from the pony tail of ignorance, the truth about the Prez's actual Charlottesville comments. Keep pretending that antifa was not rioting -

"You had some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides. ... I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name. ... So you know what, it's fine. You're changing history. You're changing culture. And you had people — and I'm not talking about the neo-Nazis and the White nationalists, because they should be condemned totally — but you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and White nationalists. Okay? And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly. Now, in the other group also, you had some fine people. But you also had troublemakers, and you see them come with the black outfits and with the helmets and with the baseball bats. You had a lot of bad people in the other group."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/04/26/joe-biden-donald-trump-charlotttesville-fine-people-neo-nazis-column/3588970002/

;-)

[Paul Emery]

Why was Lee a Great General Todd? Was it because he was able to kill millions of Union soldiers? What exactly did he do that was "Great" by
Trumps standards?

[Scott O]

Ah - so now Paul Emery is caught lying and he tries to side step the issue by making this an issue of whether or not Lee is considered by history to be a great general.
Sorry Paul - your TDS has caught up with you once again.
Trying to impugn Trump because he acknowledges a common historical fact is just stupid. Ike cheated on his wife and admired many aspects of the NAZIs. Is he next? Oh, no. Just Trump. MLK jr constantly cheated on his wife and he gets a Natl Holiday.
Paul Emery tries to tell a stupid lie about Trump and got caught.
You know what they say about digging yourself into a hole, Emery. Go back and re-read what you originally posted about Trump and then read what he actually said.
Not the same thing.
We understand you haven't got the emotional balance to handle being so desperately wrong about Trump getting elected Pres after shooting your mouth off for months that he had no chance. Just enjoy the crow along with all that popcorn you bought and wait for the next election. Hope springs eternal!

[Don Bessee]

Answer the question oh great pony tail of ignorance @my 759!

==============================================================

" Why was Lee a Great General Todd? Was it because he was able to kill millions of Union soldiers?"

It is astonishing that you are so willing to make a fool of yourself so regularly oh great pony tail of ignorance!

FACT CHECK -

Approximately 620,000 soldiers died from combat, accident, starvation, and disease during the Civil War. This number comes from an 1889 study of the war performed by William F. Fox and Thomas Leonard Livermore. Both men fought for the Union. Their estimate is derived from an exhaustive study of the combat and casualty records generated by the armies over five years of fighting.

https://www.battlefields.org/learn/articles/civil-war-facts

You have absolutely owned the title Pony tail of ignorance. The snooze has fallen to the wayside but he could make a comeback. You should stick to talking points for lefties ya putin party parrot.

;-)

[Bill Tozer]

Punchy's ignorance is showing again. I believe the total number of deaths in the Civil War was around 600,000, not millions. Of course Lee was a great general. West Point and other military academies study Lee's defensive tactics to this day. Lee's maneuvers influenced Dwight Eisenhower, Patton, MacArthur, and countless military generals oast and presebt throughout the world.

[Paul Emery]

So Don you claim that Lee did not kill very many Union soldiers. Why do you consider hm a Great General ?

Oh pardon me. Lee only killed 360,000 Union soldiers in the Civil war. That's no problem right Don

[Don Bessee]

None of your bs games oh great pony tail of ignorance your 854 is a mill stone around your neck you will never lose just like your last couple of years of utterly failed prognostications. Ignorance is your stock in trade and you are caught by your lies wallowing in it.

Show US were your numbers @854 came from...……. Just another lying sack of shite otherwise. But at least your are consistent. Consistently ignorantly wrong.

Time to hand the device to the next bar stool, they couldn't do any worse.

I am sure KVMR is thrilled with your leaving a trail of ignorance and lies, but hey you can claim its Trumps fault. Be sure to wear your pink knit hat when you explain it to the bosses.

;-)

[Paul Emery]

I humbly corrected myself Don. So Lee is your hero. It's now on the record.

[Todd Juvinall]

CAreful DonB Paul is putting words and intent into you again.

[Don Bessee]

More lies @952 but hey its what everyone knows to expect from the KVMR fakenews guy AKA the great pony tail of ignorance.

"So Don you claim that Lee did not kill very many Union soldiers. Why do you consider hm a Great General ?

Oh pardon me. Lee only killed 360,000 Union soldiers in the Civil war. That's no problem right Don "
Posted by: Paul Emery | 26 April 2019 at 09:38 PM

Keep digging that hole humbly, you might find gold. LOL

But here is another problem for your lame rap -

Humble means "modest; without an excess of pride." A person who brags about being humble may have too much pride in being humble to actually be humble.

;-)

[Bill Tozer]

Oh Don, you Putin cuddler you.

[Bill Tozer]

I do like what Scott Adams had to say at the end of the link.

http://dlvr.it/R3bJZH

[Gregory]

SO 713pm
"Paul - are trying to appear an idiot or what? You claim that "Trumps ideal for a great man is Robert E Lee." He didn't say that, but lying about it is par for your course."

That's right, but it wasn't a lie. Paul completely misrepresented Trump's words. He doesn't have the language skills to know the difference between Trump's words and his mischaracterization of them.

Paul isn't trying to appear an idiot. He is an idiot. It comes naturally.

And Paul, if Lee had accepted the offer to command the Union army, the War Between the States would probably have been shorter.

[George Rebane]

Gentlemen - you in your enthusiasm for historical debate have strayed from this post's topic. Get back on subject, or off to the Sandbox.

[Don Bessee]

nuff said

;-)

[Bill Tozer]

Back on topic: Census.

“Are you a U.S. citizen?”

“Only in self-defeating, sovereignty-eroding America is the idea of asking whether people living in America are American citizens for the American census a matter of controversy.

“But we live in a Trump-deranged age, so now it’s tantamount to an international human rights crime to ask anyone about citizenship status at any time for any reason. Heaven forbid we inconvenience or discomfit legal noncitizens or illegal immigrants with a question.”

https://patriotpost.us/opinion/62567-beware-soros-funded-hijacking-of-us-census?fbclid=IwAR3vGBj2W5vRVet-fbbDACqA1NjZwGYHBldwWiamEURp7Hvtah1_mI1yzVU

[Scott O]

BT - really liked this one: “damage all our daily lives for decades.”
Asking me if I'm a citizen?
Gee - I was detained and asked that as I drove along an interstate highway.
I must admit I was pissed that I was detained without probable cause, but was I 'damaged' daily ever afterward?
Trump Derangement Syndrome.
Stop It.

[L]

Disappointed in Frisch, George. From years past, he was the most coherent of your blog's lefties- we last sparred about CA energy sources, probably about six years ago. He seems much angrier and less reasonable these days.

[L]

Actually, he still is the best spokesperson for the 'reasoning' on their side among those frequenting these conversations. Yikes!