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30 September 2019

Comments

Scott O

I believe the main problem here is the lefts' total lack of understanding as to how the finances of govt work. There is revenue from taxes, fees and levies - that is income to the govt. Then there are appropriations (spending) that are parceled out through many and varied venues.
Unless you are talking about something like fees from general aviation and the budget of the FAA, there is no direct connection between the income and the outgo of the fed govt. No one in our legislative bodies (save a few libertarians) cares one whit about the amount of money coming in when it's time to allocate the money for expenditures.
No child has had their breakfast taken from them to 'pay' for a tax rate cut for the wealthy.
As far as the lefts' newfound excuse to not provide evidence or proof of their assertions - well, I suppose if you have no proof, then this is as good an excuse as any.

Steven Frisch

You misrepresent the issues. It goes to this:

"It is blatantly obvious that if billionaires can save millions in their taxes from going to the under class, they can invest that money in something else."--J. Barron

and your response....

"In more tempered and reasonable societies the one making an assertion is required to substantiate it with some supportive evidence."--G. Rebane (That is you bemoaning the lack of data provided by J. Barron)

and my response...."Seriously, there is proof that what Barron stated is true ....."

Whereupon I posted multiple links to the sources...which anyone who desires can go to.

I can't help it if you won't read or value sources...which is what led to my last comment..."Robert is entirely correct...there is no real point in using data or information to support a point of view here because the participants are not longer governed or motivated by reason."

What a tool.


George Rebane

StevenF 502pm - you are simply incorrigible in your attempts at logic and reason. There was never any issue about the existence of substantiation, pro or con. The only issue here is who was to provide the substance to ascertain the verity of the assertion. Barron's approach has been replicated for years on RR, and you don't have a clue how to parse that understanding. But the tack taken by Barron and you all in these debates is telling, because it is replicated at the national level - else no one here, most notably I, would not give a damn for your modes of discourse.

ps. I respond to you to in order to communicate with the inquiring readers. I have no hope of changing your mind on anything. However, I am forever puzzled as to why you spend so much time on a site that you and yours consider in such low regard and reach. I would never, and I don't, spend any time contending ideas with people calcified or beyond understanding.

Scott O

Frisch - "You misrepresent the issues. It goes to this:

"It is blatantly obvious that if billionaires can save millions in their taxes from going to the under class, they can invest that money in something else."--J. Barron"

That is entirely false.
That is not what JB stated that started this thread.
Hard to have a discussion when the goal posts are being moved with every riposte.
And I would love to know how billionaires can save millions in their taxes and ensure that at the same exact time, the 'underclass' will be deprived by the same amount.
My previous post above is now proven.
Frisch has no idea how the govt obtains and spends money.

Steven Frisch

Seriously Scott and George, if the President proposes and passes a tax cut, and the majority of the benefit of the tax cut goes to wealthy individuals and corporations, as the revenue from the Trump tax cut did, then the Trump administration reduces benefits, including SNAP and school lunches using the rational that it is necessary to reduce costs, then children have had their breakfast taken from them to 'pay' for a tax rate cut for the wealthy.

I know full well how budgets work--and no there is not a specific dollar to dollar relationship between the tax cuts and school cuts--but if relative revenue falls and cuts are made there is clearly a relationship between the two.

Todd Juvinall

Looks like this attack on America by the democrats is tanking the markets. Check your 401K and see what the democrats have cost you.

J. Barron

Todd-
You mean the 10 year low in production output caused by the Trump's trade war?

fish

Just think how many more children who need breakfast we could invite in if only all the tax breaks went away! (Insert….."for the price of one B-2 bomber" trope here)


Really…..at this point shouldn't we just annex Mexico and Central America?

Walt

How many more kids could be fed if Steve didn't get free money from the government. Take your grant money Steve and give it to the local school chow programs... Like that will EVER happen.
Judging by your latest picture you ain't missing any meals.

Steven Frisch

Posted by: J. Barron | 02 October 2019 at 08:35 AM

Yep, J. Barron, and the two hardest hit states--Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

Steven Frisch

I didn't want to post this up in George's nice little family thread but perhaps his daughter could teach him something about dispute resolution.

You know George, the parts about joint fact finding, active listening, accepting responsibility, not attacking the person but addressing the problem, creating a fair process, and finding mutual benefit.

Having done a number of dispute resolution programs I can tell you that none of the behaviors you exhibit here or standards you create here lead to resolution of disputes. They are all about creating and perpetuating conflict.

You asked above why I bother posting here.

I long ago I gave up on the idea that any rational discussion based on any of the principles of dispute resolution or even rationality could be conducted here. Going back to look at the early days of this platform anger was the dominant characteristic.

The answer to why I post here is simple, you have an audience, you live in my community, and you are a racist, separatist and propagandist for a dangerous, radical and anti-American philosophy that I oppose, and as long as you allow me to post here I will hold you accountable for your statements.

George Rebane

StevenF 819am - Not at all Steve. If lower rate taxes don't make up from GDP growth, the proximal effect is to just increase fed borrowing, which increases the deficit, which increases national debt. When have you seen entitlements (especially school meals) go down in lockstep with lower govt tax revenues?

George Rebane

StevenF 907am - Steve, I would venture that my dispute resolution talents and career accomplishments in such endeavors would make yours pale in comparison. You have even missed the extensive discourses on dispute resolution that have been covered here on RR. You have nothing to compare here, especially in the 'business' you conduct for your livelihood. As I've demonstrated numerous times, you and yours march to a different logic (witnessed also on the national scale), which then makes almost all accepted dispute resolution approaches problematic.

BTW, looking at the dispute resolution best practices curricula as taught in today's law schools, you'll find that they hew to the methodologies I have cited, used, and posted here. And your demonstrated methods of argumentation are a disaster in the realworld - perhaps you use a different approach elsewhere.

And I am still waiting to read tenets of your socio-political credo, or to hear your criticisms of mine to which you have had access for years. Nevertheless, I welcome your visits here, and that includes expressions of your eternal hubris in that you somehow hold my statements "accountable". Your civil repartees are always welcome; nay, they are needed to illustrate, test, and confirm these commentaries.

Todd Juvinall

Steve Frisch is one of those people that know everything about everything and you just have to accept that it is true. What a hoot.

Eric Sczurek

George 9:11
"When have you seen entitlements (especially school meals) go down in lockstep with lower govt tax revenues?"

Right here. Cut taxes to the wealthy and make up for it by cutting SNAP funding.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trumps-cuts-to-food-stamps-are-indefensible-economically-and-morally-2019-07-31

Walt

Snap funding down? Well just MAYBE the NEED has gone down.
With MORE people working earning a living, that's what supposed to happen. I know that's not good news for the Left.
Has ANY child been denied due to lack of funding? Prove it if so.

Paul Emery

George writes:

" If lower rate taxes don't make up from GDP growth, the proximal effect is to just increase fed borrowing, which increases the deficit, which increases national debt. "

Isn't this what happened with Trumps lowering of tax rates? It is well document that increased GDP did not make up for the decline in tax revenue. Under Trump we have at least a Trillion a year in increased deficit something he promised wouldn't happen as he also promised that lowering tax income would be made up by increased GDP tax income.

George Rebane

EricS 952am - good point to bring up which illustrates how a partisan interpretation can mangle what really happened. The reality is (as Walt's 1004am points out) that with unemployment dropping below 4%, the number of needy have decreased. And as this low unemployment persists, those numbers will continue to decrease. This, of course, violates a fundamental liberal tenet that calls for all forms of transfer payments to make up an ever-greater share of government budgets.

PaulE 1004am - You're right. To date the economy has yet to respond enough to make up for the tax cuts - although the calculation is more complicated than anti-Trump propaganda makes us believe. However, the real contention here is about the impact of tax rates on economic growth. The liberal shibboleth is that taxes have no causal influence on the economy.

Walt

Emery STILL refuses to comprehend revenue is UP.
Nor does he acknowledge Nazi Nan produced the SPENDING BILL.
Emery has no clue how fiscal crap works in D.C.

What does Emery have to say about the Proggys running for President multi TRILLION dollar spending plans?? Those facts have been given, yet no answer from Emery, except more drivil bitching about Trump.

Walt

Something the whining LIBS can't produce...... Proof.
https://www.cbpp.org/research/food-assistance/snap-caseload-and-spending-declines-have-accelerated-in-recent-years
"Participation and spending in the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP, formerly food stamps) continue to decline, reflecting the program’s responsiveness to economic conditions, which improved in the years after the Great Recession.

The number of people participating in SNAP declined by more than 7 million people, or about 16 percent, between 2013 and 2018.[1]
By the end of 2018 the share of the population participating in SNAP had returned to late-2009 levels and is projected to fall further."

Kinda shoots Stevie and friends argument all to shit.

I just ran over your squirrel,, and backed up to finish the job.

fish

Holding George accountable for his statements = Humble bragging about dispute resolution skills/training.


Well that "Triple Bottom Lines" it for me!

Eric Sczurek

Rebane 10:20
"The reality is (as Walt's 1004am points out) that with unemployment dropping below 4%, the number of needy have decreased."

Are you trying to convince us that 3.1 million people are losing food assistance because they are now working more?? Categorically false and you know it. 3.1 million people are losing benefits because Trump is raising the bar for eligibility (gotta pay for those fat cat tax cuts, you know).

"Under Trump's proposed rule, people whose gross income is 130 percent above the federal poverty line (slightly more than $16,000 for one person) or have more than $2,250 in assets, will no longer qualify to receive federal food benefits."

Own a 20 year old Nova you use to drive to your job as a maid? Bingo, you must be rich. Your family no longer qualifies for assistance.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/heres-who-could-lose-food-stamps-under-trumps-proposed-changes

Paul Emery

Walt writes

" Nazi Nan produced the SPENDING BILL."

Yes Walt it came from the House , it was passed b the Republican Senate and Trump signed it. It is therefore a Republican Bill. Besides, we were supposed to have a balanced budget because Trump promised the Tax cuts would raise more revenue and balance the budget. Gosh and Golly Walt. What happened?

Gregory

Steven Frisch 907am

"The answer to why I post here is simple, you have an audience, you live in my community, and you are a racist, separatist and propagandist for a dangerous, radical and anti-American philosophy that I oppose, and as long as you allow me to post here I will hold you accountable for your statements."

It isn't "your community", Steve.

Checking once again, by appearance, Frisch's staffing shows he's assembled a 100% White staff, and he's working for a 100% White board of directors at his wretchedly misnamed Sierra Business Council which is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a council of businesses.

In addition, it appears his hiring practices are unbalanced by gender with 13 of the low level staffers being women, and three being men, not including himself. Perhaps balanced by the the board which is lopsided in the other direction, 3 women and 10 men, including the male chair and male vice chair?

Racist is as racist does. And hires.

... PS I could swear SBC used to have 19 staff, not 17...


Bonnie McGuire

It's stupid to attack the wealthy, and worker taxpayers from whom the government gets money to spend however...mostly on itself. If you've ever been poor you know you can't afford to give to charity, nor pay taxes to the gov either. Gov wouldn't have any money to spend except for robbing enterprising individuals in the private sector. Blaming big business for not helping the poor is baloney! The gov money collectors who redistribute most to themselves are to blame. Take a look at their salaries, benefits and retirements.
Notice how those who belong to the chosen political cult can commit crimes and are never punished like what we've been watching. Think about the taxpayer $ billions gov wasted investigating and investigating and investigating alleged gov criminals that fade into nothing but distractions. Not much for the poor other than using them as an excuse to abuse and accuse those who pay of not paying enough.

George Rebane

re PaulE's 149pm - That's an interesting concept. The federal budget, fashioned by a Democrat-controlled House that threatens to shut down govt and blame Republicans in an election year as a campaign tactic, suddenly becomes a "Republican Bill" when the Repubs knuckle under and accept it. More sane heads will look at who sponsored/demanded what spending items to make up their minds about who are the licentious spenders in Congress.

Gregory

Regarding free or subsidized school breakfasts and lunches, nothing is free.

My father, who retired as a public middle school vice principal in SoCal, when working would occasionally drive kids home when they were ill, and at home we'd occasionally hear from him how nice the home was, and all the nice high dollar toys were (boat, RV, etc)... but the family was signed up as low income and the kids in the family were all getting free lunches.

He officially kept quiet because they were forbidden to challenge parental statements. If they said they were poor, they were poor and that was that.

In short, parents sometimes lie and some have no pride.

Jig Wiggly

Oh Bonie, Bonnie, Bonnie.

"Think about the taxpayer $ billions gov wasted investigating and investigating and investigating alleged gov criminals that fade into nothing but distractions."

Hillary has undergone 17 investigations, and is undergoing another where 130 people have been queried over 3 years. Is this the waste of time and money you are wringing your hanky over? Oh no, it's only the Dems who investigate, investigate and investigate.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/state-dept-intensifies-email-probe-of-hillary-clintons-former-aides/2019/09/28/9f15497e-e1f2-11e9-8dc8-498eabc129a0_story.html

Gregory

Wiggly Jiggy 209pm

There's a new sheriff in town. The earlier whitewashings need rework.

George Rebane

re Jig 209pm - Is Hillary being investigated for specific and established actions - i.e. something she actually did - that are definitely illegal under US Code? Or is she being investigated for something that she might have thought or said or implied or ...? In short, her actions are a matter of record; the question(s) under consideration concern the nature of their criminality.

Paul Emery

George

what cuts specifically would you recommend Trump should have made to the budget in order to balance it as he promised? Keep in mind he promised he would not cut Social Security or Medicare and Trump never breaks his promises.

Gregory

Here's a candidate for cutting, Punch... money funneled to NPR/PBS/CPB.

Not enough to balance the budget but it's the thought that counts.

Walt

Simple question,,, just how do you plan to pay for it?
Emery won't answer up,,, and the President wannabe's can't do simple math,, yet are planning on writing checks our collective butts can't pay.
https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-democrat-candidates-big-spending-20190521-story.html

Yet Emery and crew think THEY are the saviours.
Free this, free that. It will just magically be there.
There is a sucker LIB born every second.

Walt

Oh yes... And when I put it to Emery if Trump should just shut down Gov. till a balanced budget is sent his way,, it's nothing but crickets. Emery would be one of the first to gripe that Trump did that.

Jig Wiggly

George, you are talking about a trial not an investigation. 17 Congressional investigations later, wouldn't you think they would have the information they need to go to trial, if indeed they found criminality?

Paul Emery

Sure Gregory that would be a few buckes of the deficit but whjat do you propose that would make a difference? Trump promised a balanced budget but gosh and goly we're running a Trillion a year in the red.

Inm y our view was Trump lying or ignorant when he made that promise?

Gregory

Not lying or ignorance, Punch. Wishful thinking and Campaign hyperbole.

If you want to put the President on the hook for spending, a line item veto is it.

Walt

Sure jiggered one,, Proggys will NOT indicate a high level Proggy.
Yet a Proggy will indicate a ham sandwich if it has a "R" next to it on the menu.
No criminal act is too big to turn away from.

Walt

Since the Queen of the DEMned has no guts to bring a formal vote to impeach, in any form, Trump should hold off on giving ANY documents until such a vote is made. No person to testify in any setting as well.

Gregory

Walt, the word you want is "indict", not "indicate".

Walt

Shit happens. Blame it on spellcheck.

J. Barron

Walt - How do the words President Pelosi sit with you. She's never been closer than now. PRESIDENT PELOSI!

George Rebane

Jig 248pm - Can you give us a link to the list of those 17 infamous "Congressional investigations" of which almost all of us are unaware? Thank you.

And regards the duration, none of us know how long and fine grind the wheels of bureaucratic investigations. For example, count the number and duration of the investigations seeking to nail Trump, several of which are still ongoing and new ones starting. Here the problem Dems have is finding any evidence of Trump's wrongdoing, whereas Hillary's wrongdoings are established, it's the criminality of those that is yet to be established. Recall, over 50 prosecutors wrote a letter saying they would take the case against Hillary to court with existing evidence, this after Comey claimed that no prosecutor would.

George Rebane

PaulE 224pm - Hard to start dissecting in detail the possible cuts to balance budget in such a comment stream. But the Repubs have been pushing the revamp of our entire entitlements programs - recall that's the elephant in the room. And also note that your throwing the ability for the President to make cuts doesn't exist; he doesn't have line item veto. All he can do is jawbone, and I already covered that.

Jig Wiggly

Hillary has been investigated 15 (not 17) times while Sec. of State. I'm sure Bonnie thinks this isn't enough times and is happy to see her tax dollars are funding yet another.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investigation_into_the_2012_Benghazi_attack
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-31806907
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_Foundation

Walt

Get your excuses going now Emery,, there are whispers that Trump just might VETO the new budget.. You know shut down the Gov.? A fine retaliatory move for this bogus whistleblower coup 2.0
Trump can make plenty of valid excuses in the bloated Proggy budget.
That should make you plenty happy.

Walt

It will be a cold day in hell first Barron Von Proggy.
You will see armed insurrection first, before the Queen of the Damned would get the job. It would be considered a Communist takeover.

Jig Wiggly

First in line for the civil war, eh Walt. Take Todd with you.

Paul Emery

George

What does it mean to the process that Trump said he won't allow cuts to Social Security or Medicare? It means to me he would veto any budget that made those cuts.

Walt

Wishful thinking there jiggered boob. PLENTY will beat me there.

We all know the Left can win the W.H.any other way. They can't win elections, so they will need to steal power.

Don Bessee

You mean he lied -

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/10/02/adam-schiff-could-have-been-more-clear-about-contact-with-whistleblower/

;-)

Walt

Gotta hate it when this happens.
https://dailycaller.com/2019/10/02/state-department-inspector-general-urgent-meeting-old-news/
"“The matter is from four months ago. They’ve been sitting on it for four months. The urgent-ness of this seems a little contrived,” the official told the Caller. “This was handled the exact way it should have been. The information was turned over by a senior official to a career lawyer who then gave it to the IG. That was four months ago.”

The briefing was a huge blow to Democrats, who were expecting bombshell information regarding the Trump administration’s contact with Ukraine and investigations into former Vice President Joe Biden. In fact, several news outlets reported earlier in the day that the briefing would be about State Department leadership retaliating against career employees who wanted to cooperate with the Democrats’ investigation into Trump. "

Another attempt by Wile E. Proggy to get mail order "gottcha" records from the ACME ginned up DOC dept.
Fine print: "Use at your own stupidity"

Walt

Just to add insult to injury, The biggest tool the had was the "unnamed source" to attack Trump and the Administration with, with manufactured claims. Planted stories in LIB rags, to Proggy cable news. Usually the name comes out and that subversive is discredited in short order. This Adam Schitt show plant will just take a little longer,,thanks to "changed rules" just before the accusation was leveled... HOW convenient. The LIB's go to scam will backfire sooner than later. But you gotta love the "informant is in fear of losing he life"... Now that's a nice touch..

George Rebane

PaulE 457pm - Well, a veto would most certainly fulfill his commitment to stop such cuts. The broader question is what other actions short of that could he visibly take to fulfill that commitment.

Don Bessee

Meanwhile outside of the swamp -

As the Ukraine Hoax begins to unravel, President Trump’s job approval rating has jumped to its highest level of the year.

The latest polling from Hill-HarrisX shows that Trump now enjoys a solid 49 percent job approval rating with registered voters. This is a two-point jump since September 11-12 in this same poll.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/10/02/nolte-trump-job-approval-jumps-to-2019-high-as-ukraine-hoax-unravels/

;-)

Scott O

Frisch 8:19 - Not even 'nice try'. Just a total bunch of straight out BS start to finish.
Let's break this stream of offal down.
"if the President proposes and passes a tax cut, and the majority of the benefit of the tax cut goes to wealthy individuals and corporations, as the revenue from the Trump tax cut did,..."
Notice lumping in corps and individuals - if you take out corps, then what?
Corps don't pay taxes, their customers, stock owners and workers do.
You're not even starting to be clever dude.
"...then the Trump administration reduces benefits, including SNAP and school lunches using the rational that it is necessary to reduce costs,..."
First of all, you're going to have to show how Trump reduced 'benefits' and then how the rational of reducing costs is tied to tax cuts.
It has been the 'rational' of conservatives for decades that the costs of wealth transfers should be reduced as much as possible simply on logic and reason. Frisch shows no tie between the tax cuts and some sort of sudden 'need' to 'cut' benefits'.
But on he sails!
"...then children have had their breakfast taken from them to 'pay' for a tax rate cut for the wealthy."
What?
What children have had their breakfast taken from them?
Now we are off into hysteria. Frisch provides absolutely no proof of any kind of any children having their breakfast taken from them at any time.
Of course, remember that the leftys here are on record as saying they don't have to provide any proof or evidence to us.
"I know full well how budgets work--and no there is not a specific dollar to dollar relationship between the tax cuts and school cuts..."
So - Frisch admits there is no direct connection between the two.
But -
"...but if relative revenue falls and cuts are made there is clearly a relationship between the two."
So - he admits there is no relationship between the two - except there is a relationship!
Well Frisch - you have us there.
There IS a relationship.
It's called the fed govt.
And the type of relationship is called "casual".
Not "causal".
I'm sure Frisch and the left wing yahoos he hangs with think this type of thinking is groovy.
Sorry Frisch.
You have actually proven you don't know jack baloney about how the budgeting of the fed govt works.
And no child had their breakfast or lunch or dinner 'taken' from them to pay for anybodies' jet aircraft.
If they went hungry it was most likely because daddy doesn't give a shit and mommy is passed out on the floor.

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