Democracy Destroys the Electoral College

George Rebane

[This is the addended transcript of my regular KVMR commentary broadcast on 19 February 2020.  An edited version of this was published in the 7mar20 Union (here).]

The nation’s Left is again demanding that the country should give up its republican roots and become a democracy – something which our Founders warned us against and were careful to avoid when they gave us a constitutional republic, with Ben Franklin’s admonition “… if you can keep it.”  It’s doubtful that those fine points of civics and governance are still taught in our public schools.  What’s happening today in Virginia gives evidence of that.

Now that Democrats completely control what used to be a battleground state, their House of Delegates have “passed a bill that aims to do an end run around the Electoral College.”  When the governor signs it into law, Virginia will become the latest state to join the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact.  The compact calls for each member state to award all of its electoral votes to the candidate who gets the most votes in the national election – 50 plus percent will do the job, leaving the other 50 minus percent voiceless in a presidential election.

Virginia ratifying the compact will bring to 209 votes in the Electoral College that will be apportioned by a democratic majority, a compact that has already been enacted into law by 15 states and the District of Columbia, and is pending in all the other states.  When the total ratified reaches 270 out of the total of 538 Electoral College votes, we will have effectively done away with the Electoral College, and will then elect our president by plebiscite.  This major step toward a pure democracy will mark a dangerous milestone in the regress of America’s governance from what the Founders bequeathed us. (more here) and here)

The dangers of direct democracy have been studied for centuries; its devastating effect on nations having accepted it fill countless books and history texts.  Unfortunately, America’s history texts have undergone a major rewrite since the Great Society’s onset around 1970.  Under the impact of socialist and radical historian Howard Zinn, two generations of public schooled Americans have been taught that the United States is the leading dystopian country, and can be blamed for almost all of the problems now facing the world.

Our country’s leftwing ideologues in academe and the media have embraced and promoted this view, which today is firmly baked into our high school history texts.  Moreover, few of our adults know what has happened to teaching American history in our schools.  Due to Zinn’s influence, only 31 states still require high schools to even teach his jaundiced version of our country’s past.  Progressive academics recognize that the young become more receptive and malleable as their knowledge of the past is either omitted or properly managed. (more here)

On the face of it, governance by direct democracy sounds really good to lightly read ears.  They know little or nothing of its inevitable consequences such as the tyranny of the majority that already afflicts states like California with its penchant for holding emotionally managed plebiscites.  Tyranny of the majority is but a temporary waystation on the road from direct democracy to autocracy.  In governance, its inherent weakness invites excesses of centralized rule that rapidly overcome local governments, as it promotes the abandonment of rationality, especially by voters with educational deficits and few abilities to vet the claims of their political demogauges.

That is why our Founders gave us an ingeniously structured democratic republic with three co-equal branches of government that contained only one legislative chamber with members determined by popular vote who then represented the people’s will.  And all of that is based on a historically novel Constitution designed to govern the government, and not the people.  Our Framers agreed that government’s most basic purpose is to secure for its citizens the so-called ‘John Locke trilogy’ or ‘Bastiat triangle’ of rights to life, liberty, and property – the weakening of any one of these minimal yet fundamental rights immediately weakens the other two. 

Today our collectivist elites know this and have used it to chart the country’s road to their promised fundamental transformation of our nation.  And that is why the promotion of wholesale democracy by our socialists is now embraced by an increasing number of America’s receptive voters.

My name is Rebane, and I also expand on this and related themes on Rebane’s Ruminations where the addended transcript of this commentary is posted with relevant links, and where such issues are debated extensively.  However, my views are not necessarily shared by KVMR.  Thank you for listening.

[Addendum]  Desperate and politically voiceless Oregonians are attempting to solve their representation problem by making plans with northern California counties to petition Idaho to annex them. (here)  (This kind of rearrangement of existing states’ boundaries is different from the approach of calving off a state’s counties that would then become a new state – e.g. CA’s State of Jefferson movement.) Oregon is among the growing number of coastal states that are rushing into socialism through adoption of any kind of collectivist policy they can get signed into law.  As RR readers know, collectivism is an ideological blight (here and here) that continues to infect democratic governments the world over.  (See also Great Divide)

Particularly vulnerable to the siren song of socialism are countries with their lowest income classes so poor that they believe they have nothing to lose to vote in socialist leaders who promise to cure all by confiscating from the rich and giving to the poor – somehow it never works out that way and you have a Cuba, Venezuela, … as a result.

“For collectivists, the group, not the individual, is the basic unit of moral concern.”  Therefore, collectivist organizations of society promote the interest of the groups identified by their elites, who also demand that individuals make ever greater and enduring sacrifices ‘for the greater good’ that is never realized. (more here)

Apropos to all this is the dismal state of ignorance of our youngest citizens whom the Left is attempting to usher into voting booths as soon as they can print their name.  Liberal syndicated columnist William Galston carefully surveys the attitudinal contours of our young (here), and concludes -

Against this backdrop, it isn’t hard to understand why only 15% of those under 30 think the U.S. is the greatest nation on earth, why nearly half believe hard work is no guarantor of success, or why so many of them support a single national health-care program—and Bernie Sanders for president.

Some more technical definitions of terms and types of democracy –

• Subsidiarity principle: delegate/implement control at the lowest level of governance that can manage the impact of a public policy.
• Direct democracy: franchised voters vote on all policies, taxes, and laws (e.g. ancient Athenian democracy). Today under the subsidiarity principle, the US implements direct democracy in the form of town meetings.
• Double majority democracy: this form requires a defined quorum to exist, and a majority of that quorum to approve of measures considered.

Comments

[L]

Seems to me the SCOTUS needs a finding that to so fundamentally alter the Constitution an Amendment is required.

Once that is clear, the abolition of the Electoral College will be a permanent, practical impossibility (think about it), something the founders must have considered.

P.S. If anyone here believes that the left cares if the desired new voters can print their names, they're giving our collectivists more credit than they deserve.

[Cross Town]

"If anyone here believes that the left cares if the desired new voters can print their names"...... statistically speaking, on the whole, Trump voters have a lower level of education than Dem voters and are, thus, more easily influenced by lies and propaganda because they lack the necessary skills to analyze arguments and go for sound bites and tweets for their truth.. turn about is fair play.

[George Rebane]

Cross 1109am - Glad you brought that up. The which party is smarter debate is far from settled, here's LA Times reporting on Pew Research findings. Given the large portion of Democrats who are minorities (black and Latino) and score abysmally below Asians and whites, it is hard to make any such claims about intellectual abilities. Add to that the overwhelming enrollment of liberals who pull worthless degrees from our progressive universities, and your argument becomes even more spurious (BTW, it's politically incorrect to do an analysis of such data.) And finally, consider the voter cohort that believes in the wisdom and stability of pure democracies (and wants to eliminate the Electoral College), and it's pretty much 3 strikes and you're out.
https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-voter-groups-20180320-story.html

Interesting footnote from Pew on the ideological stability of both parties - the Dems have moved left, and the Repubs have remained stable. Here's a recent take on what I've been preaching for a long time. Pew agrees.
https://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2019/04/two-americas-a-national-emergency-on-steroids.html

[Scott O]

CT 11:09 - Hilarious!
Perhaps - with your obviously superior intelligence - you could point out what "lies and propaganda" caused me to vote for Trump.
As near as I can tell, the Dem candidates are all running on the assumption that the voters have no intelligence at all. All that is needed is to go to their official web sites and look at the blather. It's platitudes, lies and absurd statements that can't be defended with facts and reason.

Getting back to George's post concerning states that are pledging their E.C. delegates to whomever wins the national vote - the next time a Republican candidate wins the national vote, you can bet those geniuses will be howling with anger. If the Dems run Bernie, it could happen.

[fish]

Posted by: Cross Town Hooker | 20 February 2020 at 11:09 AM

Trump voters have a lower level of education than Dem voters and are, thus, more easily influenced by lies and propaganda because they lack the necessary skills to analyze arguments and go for sound bites and tweets for their truth.. turn about is fair play.

Yes Roberta.....those Feminist Dance Therapy and Sex Toys throughout History courses that you paid $1200/credit for seem to have done wonders for your critical thinking skills!

[The Estonian Fox]

From USA Today:
Intelligence employee pleads guilty to leaking classified info to journalists.

"Federal prosecutors say he researched multiple classified intelligence reports – some of which were unrelated to his job duties – and leaked information about a foreign country's weapons systems to two journalists.

Prosecutors said that Frese, 31, who worked as both a contractor and a full-time employee for DIA, was in a relationship with one of the journalists and sought to advance the reporter's career.
Timothy R. Slater, Assistant Director in Charge of the FBI's Washington Field Office, stated that "By disseminating the same classified information he had pledged to protect, Henry Kyle Frese put the US and our national defense equities in danger."

Frese faces a maximum penalty of 10 years in prison and will be sentenced on June 18."

Wow, tough sentence. And to think, Hillary only got 4 years in prison for her mishandling of classified info. Looks like they're going after white guy privilege. Or, did I miss something?

[George Rebane]

EstonianF 524pm - "Or, did I miss something?" Yeah, the four years ;-)

[Steven Frisch]

Boy reading that Pew study I think you have quite a bit to be concerned about George. The least of your worries should be "who is smarter."

"Given the large portion of Democrats who are minorities (black and Latino) and score abysmally below Asians and whites, ...."

The point that the share of people of color identifying as Democratic leaning has increased does not necessarily mean that the intellectual level of those identifying as Democratic over time has declined, as a matter of fact at the same time the share of people of color identifying as Democrats has gone up the level of education amongst people identifying as Democrats has gone up.

Perhaps it's that Democrats attract a smarter set, whatever the color?

But what you really have to worry about is the fact that millennials, Gen X and women are abandoning the Republican and conservative identity in droves. At the current rate of change Republicans look to be a minority of the voting block for a couple of generations to come.

I believe that shrinking support explains why the only way Republicans can hold on to power in our Republic is to twist the rules, cheat, suppress the vote, partner with Russians to interfere, lie to the American people, attack the courts, and run campaigns based on fear to motivate their shrinking, frustrated, grievance laden, mostly white, male, Christian, aging, paranoid base.

[fish]

Perhaps it's that Democrats attract a smarter set, whatever the color?

.......yes, yes.....by all means cling to that.

[Barry Pruett]

Yes Steve. It’s republicans doing the contorting. Like banning the electoral college, adding Supreme Court justices, term limits for justices, allowing felons to vote, promoting illegal immigration in order to fatten democratic rolls. Oh brother. It is Saul Alinsky all over again - blame the other side for what I am doing. The fact is that there is a movement happening - a shift and it is not in left direction. Democrats have socialism and no chance except to bring up phony Russia crap in attempts to destroy. What they are selling and gonna be bought.

[fish]

Hillary lite........

HER POSITION HAS EVOLVED: Elizabeth Warren, Who Said She Wouldn’t Take ‘A Dime’ From Super PACs, Is Now Accepting Support From A Super PAC.

https://dailycaller.com/2020/02/20/elizabeth-warren-super-pac-accept/

[Bill Tozer]

“At the current rate of change Republicans look to be a minority of the voting block for a couple of generations to come.”

Now, where have I heard this before. Wish I had a dollar for every time that song is sung. Oh Lord, stuck in Lodi again.

[scenes]

s. frisch: "women are abandoning the Republican and conservative identity"

Looking at a Pew study, I'm seeing:

Women 1992: Dem - 54% Rep - 39%
Women 2016: Dem - 54% Rep - 38%

Interestingly

White Women 1992: Dem - 48% Rep - 44%
White Women 2016: Dem - 46% Rep - 47%

You probably shouldn't listen to your staff for gender-news. The difference is obviously ethnicity.

[Gregory]

Level of Education... a PhD in Grievance Studies (including PoliSci) being greater than a BS in Engineering or Computer Science, eh, Steve?

The main dividing line may well be climate, with Dems wishing to throw 'deniers' into the volcano to appease the gods... but what happens to voting as Sol goes into its sleepytime?

[George Rebane]

Re StevenF 508am – Steve’s analysis of the fortunes of the Republican party are pretty much on the mark, but his explanation for its diminishing membership comes off the rails when he embraces the Alinsky Apologetic as pointed out here (e.g. BarryP’s 710am) and elsewhere in these pages. Unfortunately there is a much simpler explanation for the fortunes of the Democrats that hews to the initial success of all historical ascendancies of the Left. And it also explains away the demonstrated relative intellectual acumen of the two parties. As its invited speaker, I first illustrated the problem to the NC Republican Central Committee back in 2009 –
https://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2009/05/republicans-need-a-new-strategy.html

As these pages reflect, I’ve been very disappointed in the Republican Party for many years now, and therefore also a proponent of expanding our country’s political landscape to at least four viable and ideologically distinct political parties that give voters a more nuanced choice for politicians and policies.

[Robert Cross]

I agree George, the more political parties the better. Not only would it give voters more choices but could also force politicians to form coalitions and cooperate with each other rather than the partisan roadblocks to real progress we now have to endure. The only problem with that is the big monied interests who control both political parties don't want more ideas and perspectives as it would become more difficult to control the relative outcomes. They want us to only have a choice between tweedle dee and tweedle dum both of whom are in their pockets regardless of political label.

[Bill Tozer]

The topic of the post is so disturbing to me I have yet to find the words to reply. Elimination of the Electroral College, Court stacking, etc? Bye bye ‘Republic for which she stands.’

[Gregory]

GR

The one thing that unites Dems is climate.

Other parties should get ready to pounce as CO2 isn't the cause of the warming that isn't really there.

[George Rebane]

Gregory - Not sure the Repubs are either smart enough to pounce, or even up for it. :(

[Gregory]

It does take confidence to stand up and take the heat.

[scenes]

Gregory: "The one thing that unites Dems is climate."

Not to be argumentative, but I think that climate politics is nearly all an urban/suburban white deal. Whether it's a valid issue or not, it looks to emanate from coffee shops, public high schools, NPR, and nearly all colleges. It's not the kind of thing that the Congressional Black Caucus or the La Razans really care about aside from cutting deals with their palefaced comrades and perhaps as a method for funds extraction (see: climate justice).

[Gregory]

frisch 508am

"I believe that shrinking support explains why the only way Republicans can hold on to power in our Republic is to twist the rules, cheat, suppress the vote, partner with Russians to interfere, lie to the American people, attack the courts, and run campaigns based on fear to motivate their shrinking, frustrated, grievance laden, mostly white, male, Christian, aging, paranoid base."

While DEMs motivate their young and old with a classic "Repent, as the End is Near" apocalyptic end of All Things.

This is the last Presidential election that Climate Change! has a chance to work for you... 2024, the Democratic Party will be in full retreat on the subject... unless V. Zharkova got it wrong.

[scenes]

RCross: "I agree George, the more political parties the better. Not only would it give voters more choices but could also force politicians to form coalitions..."

and then you just end up with a dominant coalition (or two), and you end up right where you started.

In the US, politicians already have to form coalitions. Western vs. Eastern vs. Southern states. Congressional caucuses defined by ethnicity. In the (D) party, young socialists vs. old party hacks (most everybody in (R) is an old party hack).

Generally, peoples' ideals on how things oughta' work don't hold up well to reality.

[scenes]

GeorgeR: "Gregory - Not sure the Repubs are either smart enough to pounce, or even up for it. :("

At this point I'd say that Republican leadership is chasing it's voters. It's a party that is redefining itself.

[Gregory]

scenes 353pm

Climate Justice is quickly becoming a key feature. It ain't just for white hipsters no mo'.

[Gregory]

Here's some reading material on the 'work' being done by SBC in GV and the County:
https://www.theunion.com/news/keeping-the-ship-afloat-nevada-county-solar-experts-consider-the-best-way-forward-for-the-areas-energy-system/

and

https://www.theunion.com/news/keeping-the-ship-afloat-nevada-county-solar-experts-consider-the-best-way-forward-for-the-areas-energy-system/

The SBC's Kristen York, Steve's Vice President of Business Innovation, is described as a Professor at the Presidio Graduate School on her blurb at sierrabusiness.org, but she isn't. She's an adjunct, with only one class to teach.

[Scott O]

RC 10:02 - I get really tired of hearing about 'big money' forcing us to choose between A and B and not allowing us to have new ideas and perspectives. I haven't seen you write one damn thing that wasn't totally in line with any number of billionaires. Please let us all in on the fantastic new ideas you have that 'big money' won't let you and your lefty buddies tell us about.
Oh - that's right - you can't!
Because 'big money' won't let you.
Get real. We have a stark dividing line between the left that wants free stuff and the conservatives that want freedom.
Sure, there's endless gray areas and many folks have mixed ideas about governance, but in the end you have to choose between heading left or heading right. More parties just means having no clear idea when you vote what kind of coalition will form after the election and exactly which way that coalition will end up. More parties will not end the fact that you and I have diametrically different ideas about life, government and reality.

[scenes]

re: Gregory@5:01PM

"Kerri Timmer, vice president of the climate and energy team with the Sierra Business Council, favors Community Choice Aggregation because she said it allows localities to purchase cheaper energy, particularly from local renewable energy sources."

cuz, you just know that small scale energy production is ever so much cheaper than large.

If you can get someone to pay you to write reports, it doesn't look like a bad way to make a living.

What all this discussion always lacks, is that absolutely no one ever takes the f'in time to take the number of homes in a town, look at the daily usage in kwh (a peak number plus some overhead), jot down the cost of the needed solar panels and battery systems (dealing with fluctuations in sunlight), add in the cost of modifying and maintaining a local grid, and present a number. Heck, it'd probably be more accurate to just find some area that already gave it a shot, although I doubt there are any towns that are rich enough.

The inevitable handwaving that goes on make me dizzy. But hey, ya know, there's some property at the airport. No problemo.

[George Rebane]

Gentlemen - keep the topic in mind; SBC ain't it.

[Steven Frisch]

The issue I am daylighting is that if one reads the PEW reports support for conservative values and the Republican party is rapidly decreasing amongst the fastest growing cohorts of voters in the country, young people, young women, people of color, and religiously unaffiliated voters.

There is something about the policy positions and framing of those issues that is missing the mark with these cohorts of voters, who will soon be the majority.

This is not just my opinion, it is clearly identified in social research like the PEW studies and was the main point of the post 2012 Republican autopsy report. Republicans have failed to garner a majority of the popular vote in 6 of the last 7 Presidential elections.

It is indeed true the the election of President Trump was achieved through the increase in voter turnout amongst a shrinking base while voter turnout amongst these new cohorts was either low or intentionally suppressed, but every year more of these cohorts are engaged, they are a year older, and more likely to vote. Soon the millennials will be the middle aged cohort and the majority of voters.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/05/29/gen-z-millennials-and-gen-x-outvoted-older-generations-in-2018-midterms/

https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2019/04/behind-2018-united-states-midterm-election-turnout.html

https://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/RNCreport03182013.pdf

[Gregory]

Steve, what happens to that large turnout when Climate Change Extinction Now! loses its power?

The biggest scare story in political history.

[Scott O]

Steve 10:56 - I don't think anyone here is going to argue with you about what the PEW reports say. In fact, if you'd pay attention, many here including myself and George have been pointing out essentially the same thing for years.
So if you and fellow leftys actually believe this, why the constant harping about the need for changes in our election rules? Are you afraid the mushy-brained youngin's are going to get older and notice they've been lied to?
The glaciers didn't disappear on cue, the ocean didn't swamp Manhattan, and 6 dollar a gallon gas isn't going to stop the climate from changing.
Your only hope is to disarm the populace. Young folks that are growing up now in a fairly healthy financial climate are going to be mighty pissed in 20 years or so when they find that unicorn farts don't produce the energy needed to provide the kind of lifestyle they were accustomed to. And also that their 'dear leaders' strangely still live in luxury while the proletariat are mired in a socialist cesspool.

[Steven Frisch]

Scott, clearly I'm paying attention, and I know George posted the PEW study, I acknowledged that in my first post.

What you guys are not paying attention to is the core question I posed, what is it about the Republican party positions and message that is falling flat in the fastest growing cohorts of voters?

I hate to tell you this but a persons values and electoral behaviors are largely set by the time they reach the age of 30. The people the Republican party is turning away today are very unlikely to shift back to the Republican party and conservatism.

Although you and George have been harping on the change occurring for years your message has turned the fault for that change back on the people who are increasingly rejecting your views instead of looking inside your own faction and asking the question what are we doing wrong? This lack of introspection and ability to re-craft conservative principals for the 21st century is what is killing you.

The rule of law? Who cares. Deficits? Who cares? Respect for institutions? Who cares? Support for US intelligence agencies, the military and their traditions? Who cares? US global leadership? Who cares. Global free trade? Who cares. Moral relativism in support of Trump and his authoritarian tendencies....bring it on.

You are not conservatives any more, or even George's 'conservatarians,' you are essentially nihilists.

Until Republicans address that truth your turnout may stay high but eventually you will be swamped by demographics.

[Todd Juvinall]

The polls I read and the ones that come from the inside are quite different from the PEW results. But the November poll will tell us all what it will be.

[Don Bessee]

Support for US intelligence agencies, the military and their traditions? Who cares? @1248

Now that's funny considering how team 0 flushed out 100 of the war fighting generals for PC lap dogs and put sensitivity training ahead of war fighting skills which ended up killing people.

Global free trade? Who cares

Certainly not the American workers who have been screwed out of good paying jobs over the last decades by your so called global free trade which was not free or fair for Americans.

I hate to tell you this but a persons values and electoral behaviors are largely set by the time they reach the age of 30.

Right up to the point they get screwed and ignored and then they look for someone who will respect their needs like all the blue collar Obama voters who now back Trump.

;-)

[scenes]

Steven Frisch: "What you guys are not paying attention to is the core question I posed, what is it about the Republican party positions and message that is falling flat in the fastest growing cohorts of voters?"

Good question. I suppose that Mexican (or Central American) nationals turned legal or illegal immigrants find more to like in the Democratic party. Looking at the way those countries are run, I can't say I'm surprised since people seem to prefer what they're used to.

There's really no mystery here and shows, in a nutshell, why the two parties have their own immigration policy preferences.

I'm repeating myself here, but after another decade or so of single-party rule in California, I fully expect a schism into a Latino and a White Liberal party. There are just too many differences in philosophy.

[scenes]

Steven Frish: "...you will be swamped by demographics."

Exactly. Thus the high interest in (or opposition to) walls.

[scene]

GeorgeR: "Gentlemen - keep the topic in mind; SBC ain't it."

My apologies, although I was more making the point that you never see hard numbers in redesigning electrical grids.

As far as the SBC is concerned, you go for it girl. If I could cook up a scam like that, I'd do it in a minute. It isn't like anyone forces them to take money.

re: The Electoral College.

It's reasonably obvious that it was a setup designed to suit the original colonies and grows a bit rusty over time. But...you can see the point of giving regional voice to national elections. Without it, the elections would consist entirely of mass media buys in a dozen cities. Given the high efficiency of propaganda fed to densely settled areas, we'd probably swing from Wyoming being over-important to the North East corridor and LA.

Maybe it would be best to just not have the executive branch (or the federal .gov generally) be so important. Somehow, the country survived for some time with a more loosely bound matrix of states.

Good luck on convincing a government to shrink though. They grow and then spin apart in an ugly fashion, like an over-large star.

[George Rebane]

StevenF 1248pm - "What you guys are not paying attention to is the core question I posed, what is it about the Republican party positions and message that is falling flat in the fastest growing cohorts of voters?"
Steve, you're not paying attention. I answered that question first in 2009, and many times since, including in the present post. The Republicans are not promising 'free ice cream cones' in return for votes. Compared to the pie-in-sky Dem promises, the Repubs' message to voters is a dour one that does not recognize them as aggrieved classes.

Oh yes, and don't confuse "level of education" with smarts. Half of your today's educated levels live with their parents. Why? They don't know crap for which anyone wants to pay a living wage.

[Gregory]

frisch 1249pm

What's a "conservative principal"?

I can't remember ever meeting one in Nirvana County.

[Scott O]

Frisch 12:48 - Frisch comes up with an interesting list:
"The rule of law? Who cares. Deficits? Who cares? Respect for institutions? Who cares? Support for US intelligence agencies, the military and their traditions? Who cares? US global leadership? Who cares. Global free trade? Who cares. Moral relativism in support of Trump and his authoritarian tendencies....bring it on.
Rule of law? No way, man - anyone who breaks the law by coming into or staying in the USA illegally should not be prosecuted and they should actually get rewarded with freebees from the taxpayers!
Deficits? Ha - we can complain about them when there is a Republican in office, but as soon as we get control, we'll run them through the roof!
Respect for institutions? What, respect some outfit run by old white males? No way, man. And hey - I have the RIGHT to poop in the sidewalk! Don't talk to me about the 'institution' of civil order.
Intelligence agencies? The ones that told us that Saddam had nukes? The ones that told us it was just a protest march over a video that happened in Benghazi?
The military and their 'traditions' - now that's a whole can of worms you really don't want to open, dude.
Global free trade? Hey, leave China alone! They should be able to do whatever they want. And besides, I have relatives doing business with them.
Global leadership? Yeah, what's with all this lowering of CO2 output more than any other nation? Why shouldn't we increase the output like China?
Trump has authoritarian 'tendencies'? You mean like - "I have a phone and a pen!" ?
So Frisch - just what are you talking about, hmmmm?
That awful sin you see in Trump starts looking pretty good as soon as it applies to your side, doesn't it?

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: George Rebane | 22 February 2020 at 01:30 PM

George, I have been paying attention.

You have been saying for years that young people are stupid and just want free shit. Republicans are loosing young people because they say young people are stupid and just want free shit. I think as long as that is how your principles are messaged you will keep losing young people.

[Steven Frisch]

Posted by: Scott O | 22 February 2020 at 02:47 PM

Scott, I think you are missing he point. I did not say I support those things, I said Republicans supported those things and then abruptly turned their backs on them when a populist charlatan who calls himself a Republican rose up to by rejecting them, just to stay in power. That is the moral relativism I referenced.

People are not stupid, they know that when a group rejects their own values to maintain power it is inherently corrupt.

[scenes]

S.Frisch: "I said Republicans supported those things and then abruptly turned their backs on them..."

It's worth considering that Republicans rethought what is important. They can get back to bailing the ship once the hull is repaired.

[George Rebane]

SteveF 318pm - This discussion doesn't go anywhere because 1) you again lost the topic, and 2) you don't understand what I've been saying about Republicans. (It's not about me, it's about the Republican strategy that we're talking about. You have this constant problem over the years of not being able to either understand or focus. You're just interested in getting your own thoughts out, and you attach them to whatever topic appears proximal to what you want to say. Not to worry though, with people who share your ideology, you're not alone in that affliction.)

Go review your original question. (Hint: 1248pm)

[George Rebane]

Administrivia - I've deleted some comments that have not even a distant relationship to the topic of my commentary. I may have missed a few.

[Scott O]

Steve F 3:23 - au contraire. My point was that most of what you accuse Trump of is totally false. He isn't authoritarian, he hasn't disrespected the military, he does respect institutions that deserve to be respected and he does want free trade but it has to be free and fair. The US can not have free trade all by itself. He has bad mouthed a lot of the so-called 'intelligence' community because a lot of them don't come up with any good intelligence. He calls out incompetence as he sees it. All of the POTUS do the same. Yes, he is undiplomatic on occasion and too often blows off his mouth when he should keep it shut. His main crime is saying out loud what everyone else is thinking. As far as the deficit is concerned - he'll get slammed by the left no matter what he does so that criticism by you is moot.
Obviously you don't like his stand on the climate crises hoax, but that is simply a matter of disagreement over policy. It hardly makes him a hypocrite or evil.
Trump is popular because he is doing well with the economy and jobs and because he is getting judges seated that will uphold the Constitution and rule fairly according to law and not some fabricated BS 'social justice' fad.
The vast majority of the young have no idea of what George has called them. They just hear some guy say he'll give them freebies and they no education of the world that would warn them of the actual price you end up paying for free stuff.
Free beer has always sucked in the voters.

[Scott O]

Gregory 3:33 - Booty-Judge as Veep? Can't see that what he could bring to the ticket would offset the fact that millions of Americans of all colors and political stripes just won't accept him as a national leader. He isn't going to bring much from his home state and he hasn't any pull in congress. Right now, the woman-who-eats-with-comb would be better. More centrist, has some connections in congress, is female, might bring in some of the mid-west.
We have a ways to go, anyway.

[Steven Frisch]

Here is what I wrote George"

"The issue I am daylighting is that if one reads the PEW reports support for conservative values and the Republican party is rapidly decreasing amongst the fastest growing cohorts of voters in the country, young people, young women, people of color, and religiously unaffiliated voters."

12:48 Question:

"What you guys are not paying attention to is the core question I posed, what is it about the Republican party positions and message that is falling flat in the fastest growing cohorts of voters?"

Here is your response: "You have this constant problem over the years of not being able to either understand or focus."

I think my questions was pretty focused. You just refuse to answer it.

Instead you are firmly in the, "Get off my lawn," stance.

In 20 years todays young people will be the majority and they are abandoning Republicanism and conservatism in droves.

I once respected much of conservatism, even while not necessarily agreeing with many of its policies. Instead your generation is taking a once meaningful and at times great conservative intellectual tradition and turning it to crap.

[Bill Tozer]

Well Steve, you can be on the team of Puritan outraged moral screamers till the cows come home....except for day of birth abortions, of course. Your enlightened scream with moral outrage for it, lol. Slippery slope!

If Trump is such an authoritarian, he must be the worse one in history. He tries to do something, get blocked by a federal judge, then puts his policy or agenda on hold and goes to court. That’s following the rule of law, Mr. CEO.

I think a bunch of folks go crazy with TDS when Trump tries to actually enforce the laws...especially the ones on the books. Kind of part of his job description, you think?Lawlessness is no bueno.

Tell me what is wrong with free and fair trade. We impose a tariff of 3% on say, Chinese cars, and they impose at 13%, 19%, 21% traffic on our cars. That is your idea of free trade? Free for them maybe. Has to be reciprocal. Canada charges us a tariff on dairy products of up to 247% and we charge 3-7%. We are getting screwed, folks. Good thing the farmers have stuck with Trump through the free and fair trade, even though some were hurt. Some did not even want to take the money offered. They just wanted it to be fair and stop having us I port their goods, yet get locked out of ours.

Ah, no minds have been changed. A least you haven’t joined the crazy chorus that Trump is going to impose martial law and become God Emperor for life. Something tells me you are opposed to draining the swamp. The gravy train for you is still rolling down the tracks. What, me worry?

https://www.facebook.com/PatriotPost/photos/a.82108390913/10157098888010914/?type=3&theater

[Bill Tozer]

Steve sez: “I once respected much of conservatism, even while not necessarily agreeing with many of its policies. Instead your generation is taking a once meaningful and at times great conservative intellectual tradition and turning it to crap.”

Can’t argue with that.

https://i0.wp.com/www.powerlineblog.com/ed-assets/2020/02/Screen-Shot-2020-02-19-at-8.58.20-AM.png?w=1004&ssl=1

https://i2.wp.com/www.powerlineblog.com/ed-assets/2020/02/84290062_2603828476412015_8097989493182693376_n.jpg?w=749&ssl=1

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[Gregory]

htps://i0.wp.com/www.powerlineblog.com/ed-assets/2020/02/Screen-Shot-2020-02-19-at-8.58.20-AM.png?w=1004&ssl=1

May he-who-shall-not-be-named bless America.

[Scott O]

Steve F - "Instead your generation is taking a once meaningful and at times great conservative intellectual tradition and turning it to crap."
Yeah - the left has done such a great job with CA. (speaking of crap).
I'd love to see Steve make pretzel logic out of what he would consider 'good conservatism'.
Look folks - as has been stated right above me - "Ah, no minds have been changed".
There are vast areas of America that are largely rural and generally conservative. And many densely packed urban areas that are largely leftist/socialist. Areas of agreement in governance are getting scarcer and scarcer. Leftys that want to put the hammer down and strip away what political power the rural areas have left are begging for violence. Remember Watts? Detroit? When folks have nothing left or see that they will have nothing left they get a tad testy. The rurals are armed and they aren't going to burn their own fields or the local hardware store. The left better just calm down and get to work fixing their own messes.

[Bill Tozer]

Oh Scott. It’s all because we haven’t climbed up on the rafters and cried aloud to the heavens denouncing Trump for all to hear. Come on, doesn’t he make your skin crawl too? Doesn’t he make everybody’s skin crawl??????!!!!!!!

Burp. Imagine what Trump’s USMCA will mean for Wisconsin with their 27,000 tons of milk and those 72,000 head of dairy cows. Yep, Trump beats every Dem in a head to head in WI. Biden had Trump by 10 just a few months ago. Trump knows how to win ‘em over. :)

@ 6:51 pm
“The rurals are armed and they aren't going to burn their own fields or the local hardware store.”

https://i1.wp.com/www.powerlineblog.com/ed-assets/2020/02/Screen-Shot-2020-02-20-at-8.49.02-AM-1.png?w=718&ssl=1

[George Rebane]

re SteveF 556pm - Here's the perfect illustration to the interested reader how how progressives sidestep debating issues - my 130pm answer to his question went completely unacknowledged and unrecognized because it doesn't fit his narrative. And this gentleman has been reading my blog for over ten years, knows my commentaries on almost every conceivable socio-political topic, and has at his disposal my extensive credo which he can download at any time. He along with his liberal cohorts wake up to each day as a 'Hello World!' happening, and start circling the same barn again and again. But note that in the process they seldom expose their own solutions, and never their preferences or beliefs. Their forte is to misrepresent what their challenger has said, and then go on with great hubris to deconstruct that.

[scenes]

"What you guys are not paying attention to is the core question I posed, what is it about the Republican party positions and message that is falling flat in the fastest growing cohorts of voters?"

Let's say you correct for mass immigration, I don't doubt that you are still correct to some degree.

Perhaps a better question is "why are Democrats going further left over time and why are younger people increasingly Democrats". I haven't seen a good explanation, perhaps it's simply a matter of increasingly good propaganda combined with relatively easy times.

A modern evil Nazi Republican is, of course, probably quite a lot further left than practically anyone of a generation or two ago. These moods sweep through the population with some inevitable denouement, never a pretty thing.

So, are we heading for a brave new world, temporarily interrupted by Trump, or just another rotation of the wheel? Dunno.

I'll pose my own question, a serious one. Let's say that the conservative/traditional inhabitants of the US, at least for the last 300+ years or so, become a minority here and that they are pushed aside into a subordinate role. You can see the initial bits of that happening. How much in the way of civil uproar do you see occurring? Will they simply accept their new position as either a suppressed minority or (at best) one among equals?

If demographic changes and poor marketing by Republicans implies that, and civil strife is baked into the cake, it's easy to see why there's such a rush to add gun laws, surveillance capabilities, government controls in general.

I hope I asked that in an understandable way.

[Scott O]

scenes 8:52 - totally understandable. The biggest factor as it relates to your question is the old saw about how quickly you boil the frog.
CA and some other lefty areas of the country are getting out there a little too quickly. Of course, since it isn't national, there's the escape hatch of other welcoming states. If it's a national deal - say Bernie makes POTUS and the Dems get control of both houses, they will over-do it and the frog will turn into Rambo. As long as it's a nice steady progression of ever increasing devolution of rights and freedoms, the conservative minority will just have to keep their heads down and hope for the best. Eventually the country will splinter into several squabbling grievance groups and the good ol USA will be easy pickin's for China.

[L]

Steve, the obvious reason the youth of America have no simpatico for the conservative ethos couldn't be simpler: from K thru 12 and beyond, they have never been exposed to anything but leftist viewpoints. It's to be expected.

Fortunately, a fair proportion used to grow out of it, tho I'm not sure that's still possible. Churchill had it exactly right: "If you're not a liberal at twenty, you have no heart. If you're still a liberal at forty, you have no brain.

By the way, since I have no kids, what do the fill up the high school hours with now that they no longer bother with history, geography or PE?

[scenes]

Scotto: "CA and some other lefty areas of the country are getting out there a little too quickly. Of course, since it isn't national, there's the escape hatch of other welcoming states. "

I was thinking about that. California is a Petri dish for the dissolution of traditional America, done without much fuss so far...interstate immigration dealing with a lot of any pent-up pressure.

This, to me at least, is why gun law is so interesting. On the face it's just an argument about the best way to achieve safety in a country vs. a tradition that goes back 400 years. In reality, it's a proxy for a lot more. The situation in Virginia is a nice little set-piece for how seemingly trivial policy issues can grow. I'd say that the push for gun law doesn't come from worrying about murders, that's mostly an issue for a subset of traditional Democratic urban voters, but people nosing about an elephant in the room. A need to disarm uneducated NASCAR watching hicks vs. a real fear by those hicks that their world will be destroyed.

I wish I were younger, I'd like to see how it all turns out.