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09 March 2020

Comments

Todd’s father

What a bunch of drivel. You bulldozing bud Trump has tried his best to dismantle our government in utmost haste.

George Rebane

"... dismantle our government in utmost haste." I wonder what evidence for that can these worthies cite.

Robert Cross

Your views are just like you.. old and obsolete in the 21st century. The framers lived in a totally different world and structured the new system to reflect 1776 not 2020. The electoral college was a compromise to slave owners and the economic importance of their labor to the national economy by making it impossible via legislation to eliminate slavery regardless of its moral depravity. It took the bloodiest war in American history to do that. That 18th century logic was intended to give a minority viewpoint (pro slave) equal or greater power than the majority so as not to endanger the economic status quo. Not too different from the resistance to today's demands for economic equality. The pro-minority rule electoral college is now being used by the same wealthy minority segment of the population to maintain enough political power to steer politics and, thus, society and economics in their preferred direction despite losing the popular vote. This has manifested itself, just as with slavery, in the form of further concentration of wealth and power which, in turn, leads to further and further concentration and inequality. The children of all political persuasions and economic levels, for example, are called upon to fight and die for what amounts to political reasons. Reasons that most often involve protecting or expanding the afore mentioned wealth. However, some people can use or buy influence like bone spurs or a spot in the air national guard to avoid such dirty business as fighting for our country. Just like lowering the voting age to 18, so that young people who were being called upon to fight and die via their local draft boards in Vietnam could at least have a say in things, the majority of the population of America, ie. those who aren't die hard conservatives, should also have a say in who gets elected President by using the popular vote instead of the archaic electoral college.

As it stands, you folks really shouldn't bother to participate in presidential elections anyway. Your vote doesn't count...not in California. Or you could move to Florida or Michigan or some swing state where it might count. Have a nice rest of your day.

scenes

re: GeorgeR@1:12PM

I wouldn't sweat it, it's just some drunk guy with a cell phone. I expect that the sum total of 'dismantling' is the easing up of some EPA rules.

Just to throw out a couple of opinions.

. The primary value of democracy is not the decisions it results in or a higher degree of fairness, but simply that it's a really good system for avoiding succession issues. About the only other model I've run into that avoids periodic (and inevitable) civil wars is hereditary monarchies with a *very* strong religious backing.

. I rather like that the primary election system overly depends on the opinions of small town/small state people. They seem like excellent proxies for good sense. It's obvious that a national system would simply result more and more in large media buys since the hoi polloi can be convinced of about anything with enough minutes-on-screen.

Dunno why the Left hates poorer, smaller places given the tendency of money and influence to pool in cities. I guess that when you are saving the world it's OK to crush anything in your path.

fish

Posted by: scenes | 09 March 2020 at 01:27 PM


I wouldn't sweat it, it's just some drunk guy with a cell phone.


Guy?


I wonder how long she stood in front the bathroom mirror practicing that speech!

scenes

'Robert' Cross @1:21PM

A bunch of silly stuff plus this:

"Your views are just like you.. old and obsolete in the 21st century."

I actually agree with that. The surveillance industrial state is growing at a good clip and that, combined with the potential of intelligent agents, is going to build an (upper case) State that is gonna do what it's gonna do.

I'm afraid that any hope you might have for a nice segue from the dead white male traditional culture to a world of unicorns and Obamahope is likely to be dashed. A certain amount of wealth and nihilism can be a shield, but to paraphrase, you might not be interested in the State but the State will be interested in you.

See ya on the other side.

Walt

DAMN Babs,, Just what Communist somebitch did you rip that off of?

Walt

BTW Bobby,, the LESS gov. the better. Really not the Commie way you have accused Trump of being.

babsie cross

Gee Walt, I didn't know you're opposed to fair elections or support slavery.

Robert Cross

scenes 1:47

I actually agree with you as well. It's a brave new world.

George Rebane

re RobertC 121pm - Talk about being "old and obsolete" and out of touch. Hobbled by his collectivist ideology, Mr Cross continues to fly hot, true, and normal. He apparently is totally unaware of the national electoral college debate, and again (like so many of his brethren in these pages over the years) thinks that the topics and arguments I present in RR originate from and are limited to a small isolated cohort of troglodytes in these foothills. I want to draw attention of our mid-road readers to the ongoing part of this blog's Right/Left dialogue. Our liberal readers have little idea what is the landscape of our national discourse, since they only avail themselves to blindered media outlets. As an example in this case, Mr Cross appears ignorant of the electoral college debate that is reported and conducted in the pages of the WSJ, one of the few flagship newspapers of our country (and the world).

Walt

Slavery? That's getting a little desperate don't you think?
And it's your LIBS that are messing with elections.
You sure have lost your mind Babbet.

Just who is getting sold into slavery? Good luck with that.

L

Rx @ 1:21 Arrogant bastards such as yourself should be more careful about displaying your ignorance in public- was Keach your history teacher?

The electoral college had nothing to do with the debate over slavery, but responded to the concern of the smaller states that their interests would be simply ignored by the mega states of the day- MA, NY, PA, VA.

In fact the slavery question was solved legislatively by the 13th Amendment; Mr. Lincoln's wartime proclamation freed zero slaves.

Finally, your offhand remark about "demands for economic equality" suggests you are far worse than your obvious role as a useful idiot. Don't like your economic situation? Learn to do something that other people are willing to pay for; Marx' methods don't work very well.

Walt

Hey Babs!! Here's your "slavery"..
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/03/09/new-york-using-prison-labor-to-make-superior-hand-sanitizer/
"“We are introducing New York State clean hand sanitizer, made conveniently by the state of New York,” said Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D) said in a press conference."

And slavery by the usual crowd no less!

Yup I STAND corrected... Good call there Babs ol' girl.
The South has risen again! So waive the stars and bars high and proud.

Walt

L.... He/she/it,, can always learn to code.

Jim Dandy

Hey Ellie-

"The electoral college had nothing to do with the debate over slavery, but responded to the concern of the smaller states that their interests would be simply ignored by the mega states of the day- MA, NY, PA, VA." Who was your history teacher, David Dukes.

The electoral college had everything to do with slavery. James Madison (you ever heard that name before?) came up with the 3/5ths rule to get around the thorny problem of them rag headed slaves.

https://www.history.com/news/electoral-college-founding-fathers-constitutional-convention

Jim Dandy

3/5 compromise.

Walt

The Dem controlled slavery is getting worse Bobby,
New York State prison labor paid between 16¢ and $1.14 an hour
New York Prison Labor Makes Hand Sanitizer, Prepares to Dig Graves if Coronvirus Worsens

It's enough for you to vote Repub.,,, isn't it Babs?
All that REAL cheap labor in a union state.

Scott O

Bob X is back with his take on reality. He would do well to think about the fact that California has the full on 'democracy' he wants nation-wide.
California has one of if not the highest rates of income inequality in the nation. California leads the nation in homelessness and poverty. Its school system is near the bottom of the heap.
Doesn't seem to be working out the way you promise, Bob - but just keep doing the same thing and maybe one day everyone in California will be poor. That's the 'equality' of pure democracy.
BTW - we got rid of slavery over 150 years ago and the electoral college wasn't an issue until the Democrats decided they needed something to blame for losing other than themselves.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - getting rid of the electoral college will lead to bloodshed within a few election cycles.
So - go ahead and be rid of it. The mob always knows best - just ask the French.

Robert Cross

George--which pages of the WSJ, because if it's the editorial pages it means nothing, just opinion..and with a heavy corporate billionaire bias... just like this blog... Conservatism is about supporting the status quo.. against change...the only problem is that such an approach simply will not work in a rapidly changing world. Apparently some of you bloggers are devoid of any sense of history beyond what you got in the 7th grade. The electoral college is all about slavery even if you choose to ignore that to quell your consciences. Of course none of you directly offered any kind of rebuttal other than " WSJ blah blah blah". your a commy, hand sanitizer, blah blah blah..

What reasons do you have for not electing our president through the popular vote...... other than two of the last three presidents, both republican, lost the popular vote but became president anyway and you all liked that.

How loudly would you all squawk if the tables were turned?

Walt

How Marxist of you Babs.

Walt

So Comrade Bobby,, when is your move to Cuba or Venezuela?
Maybe the fat kid Kim would love to take you in.
Don't like the way things are here? By all means go to where it is. America will let you do that.
I know I know. You would rather see things phucked up here than take the energy to get out of momma's basement.

Walt

What's wrong Babs? A flag waving American give you the chills?
You clammed up tighter than a stear's ass in fly season with my posts above.Funny what you bitch about, a Commiecrat does.

George Rebane

re RobertC 630pm - So how do you communicate with someone who believes "... if it's the editorial pages it means nothing, just opinion"? Mr Cross is someone who not only never reads op/ed pages, he also wouldn't understand that their presentations include factual content, often the only place where such facts are presented because they also support the editorial's larger narrative. But to understand that, one needs the ability to parse claimed statements of facts from their adorning interpretations. Throwing away everything in toto because it also contains opinions is beyond sophomoric. There is a reason why op/eds are the most sought after parts of media content - something that apparently Mr Cross has yet to learn.

BTW, "... some of you bloggers ...", I am the only blogger here, the rest are my readers with some of them also commenting on a wide variety of topics, not all of which I introduce.

fish

Posted by: Robert Cross | 09 March 2020 at 06:30 PM


Apparently some of you bloggers are devoid of any sense of history beyond what you got in the 7th grade.


Hey…Roberta Dunning-Kreuger checking in….lets give her a warm hand…..clap, clap, clap!

scenes

RC: "The electoral college is all about slavery "

Huh? Perhaps the 3/5 vote compromise, but I can't see the electoral college design involving slavery. There was some arguing about it in 1800, close elections can be won by having more slaves, but that was later.

Electors weren't even selected by popular vote until some years later (nearly all in the 1800's), so you have to have some method to apportion weight by the size of the state. Plus the elector counts roughly equaled the state proportions (about 10:1 in large vs. small). The 1790 House of Representatives had 10 members from Virginia and 1 from Rhode Island (110k free white males over 16 in VA, 16K in RI).

As mentioned above, the very smallest states got an extra bit of vigorish by having 3 votes rather than 1 (two Senators plus one Rep).

The thing that didn't exist back then were the large differences that you see now (40M in CA vs 600k in WY for eample). The real inequities in vote value are a modern issue.

Lemme see why you think this so positively.....

OK. I get it. There's a bunch of contemporary popular news articles on slavery = electoral college because Trump won with a minority vote in 2016. Trump = slavery = Hitler. Example article:
https://time.com/4558510/electoral-college-history-slavery/

Bill Tozer

Kinda blows the electoral college/slavery mantra out of the water when you consider that Virginia was the most populous colony when the Founding Fathers drafted the Constitution.

scenes

re: BillT@7:49

I think that the argument is that the free white male vote stretches further if you have more slaves. Given that New York had quite a few fewer than Virginia, it's surprising that New York went for it. OTOH, you can argue that proportional representation based on total population makes sense.

I'd have to pick through really old letters-to-the-editor to see what the real thinking was. It isn't like electoral college electors had to be the result of popular vote, each state could have it's own method. The early mechanism for VP was an interesting idea but went away.

Slavery itself is a peculiar institution. It has existed since people lived in groups of any size and in my mind mostly went away when it became economically impractical. The years that it was made to go away are typically about the same time that 'modern' technology began entering farming and mining, whether it's in Russia (1861), Brazil (1888), parts of Africa (yet to happen), end of US Civil War 1.0 Of course, the most advanced industrial culture (the UK), was the main force behind exporting an anti-slave philosophy...New England brahmins being a low rent version.

Scott O

Bobby X - great lines!
"...and with a heavy corporate billionaire bias.. just like this blog."
Good one! I laughed so hard, I almost blew out the $100 bill I was using to light my cigar. Yes - all of us conservatives here have this idea that billionaires are humans and have human rights. Imagine that!
"Conservatism is about supporting the status quo.. against change."
No, Bobby - conservatives are not against change. And there is a lot of the 'status quo' that we do not support. We are against 'change' that will lead to the destruction of our society and our Republic.
"The electoral college is all about slavery even if you choose to ignore that to quell your consciences. Of course none of you directly offered any kind of rebuttal other than " WSJ blah blah blah". your a commy, hand sanitizer, blah blah blah.. "
Well - I did but apparently you can't read.
"What reasons do you have for not electing our president through the popular vote......"
The reasons were addressed and taught to me in school decades before the elections you mentioned. We do not want a handful of urban areas dictating to the rest of the nation.
"How loudly would you all squawk if the tables were turned?"
Not one bit.
Would Hillary have declined the presidency if she had won the electoral college and lost the popular vote?
Hmmmm?

Scott O

scenes 8:05 - "...parts of Africa (yet to happen)."
Yeah - where's that Kaepernick guy on actual slavery?
The Trump admin did something about it but gets no cheers from Bobby X.
https://www.voanews.com/africa/mauritanian-activists-cheer-us-move-end-trade-deal-over-slavery
Go to Kap's website - see anything there about ending actual slavery?
Nope.
https://kaepernick7.com/
Now - what was Bobby X saying about the folks supporting the status quo?
As Gomer Pyle would say... "Fer shame, fer shame, fer shame!"

Bill Tozer

ROFLMAO

“The electoral college is all about slavery even if you choose to ignore that to quell your consciences.”

My conscience is clear, sorry about yours, Roberta. I be a free man, not a slave to Liberal White Supremacist Guilt, something Malcolm X warned all Negros against.

While the Leftinistas spout that they just want a popular vote to decide our Presidential Elections (winner takes all), they also spout against even having a US Senate to temper the passing passions of the Mob and support stacking SCOTUS to put their thumb on Lady Justice’s scale and eliminating due process while they are at it.

All the Lefties have to do is get 3/4 of the State Houses on board, get 2/3 of the Senate to go along, and then call for a Convention of the States, misnamed a Constitution Convention.

Easy peasy, but noooooo. They want to do their current workaround the Constitution and have a Presidential popular vote by doing an end run around the Constitution, per their normal MO.

Lincoln was a minority popular vote President. Bill Clinton never got 50% of the popular vote, something that really bothered him. Could you imagine a national recount of all the votes? What a clustergluck that would be.

Heck, call a convention of the states together and abolish everything. But, just be careful what you wish for. How do the Lefties like Harry Reid’s Nuclear Option today? How about them apples. Not so tasty with the Reid worm in it, now is it

scenes

"Liberal White Supremacist Guilt"

an oldie but a goodie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwYd5cRlROE

Bill Tozer

Man, does that Roberta ever projection her own babble to quell her conscience.

scenes

re: BillT@8:33AM

You can definitely see the problem.

. Political campaigns are extremely well marketed and often result in near-ties.
. The Electoral College system slightly favors small states.
. In a near-tie, small states win the Presidency.
. Roberta's side loses to the NASCAR-watchin', beer guzzlin', masses in the small states.

This can not be allowed.

It sure would be simpler to just push government functions to the lowest possible level. There's nothing keeping California (or Nevada County for that matter) from building a scad of abortion clinics, providing free stuff for the poor, making tax levels whatever the majority likes, firing up a single-payer health plan, and then leave federal matters (immigration, military, a handful of rights) to the feds.

Somehow that's always turned on it's head.

...and because no day is complete without irony.

https://legalinsurrection.com/2020/03/yale-psychiatrist-who-has-repeatedly-called-trump-mentally-unfit-refuses-to-diagnose-biden/

L

Fun thought. Before the 2016 election, it was the Dems bragging about their "electoral college firewall" of WI, MI and PA. Remember?

As Bill sez, if you don't like the electoral college, pass an amendment to abolish it.

Finally, RX as I said to begin, the electoral college wasn't to do with slavery, but the tyranny of majorities, a problem that didn't leave along with slavery.

fish

Posted by: scenes | 10 March 2020 at 08:50 AM


Yale Psychiatrist Who Has Repeatedly Called Trump Mentally Unfit Refuses to Diagnose Biden


What's to diagnose? Ol Shotgun Joe is senile!

scenes

L: " ...the electoral college wasn't to do with slavery..."

If it was, New York, owning a lot fewer slaves, would have never gone for it. Easy peasy.

So far as I can tell, it breaks out like this:

Evil: States to use slaves to get electoral college votes and House seats
Good: States to use illegal aliens to get electoral college votes and House seats

The world confuses me sometimes.

None of this is based on morality, it's just competition for power.

scenes

The problem with the R. Cross's of the world (well, there's probably more than one problem, but that's an issue for another day), besides the humorless hectoring, is their attraction to a sticky idea.

I don't doubt for a sec that you could take Ms. Cross to a highly detail seminar on the formation of the US government, grind through contemporary speeches & correspondence & handbills, show the opinions that led to the Electoral College and their complexity, get an agreement on the details, finish up, and still hear "THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE IS THERE BECAUSE OF SLAVERY".

No doubt everyone should watch out for 'BECAUSE OF' since it never holds up against the real world, but in this case I think you are just seeing an attractive notion that meets other needs...usually written by a 20 some year old at a monthly political magazine. As usual, the Historian's Fallacy bites people in the ass.

Bill Tozer

Veer off topic, briefly.

“..and because no day is complete without irony.”

Irony? That ain’t the word for it! That Yale headshrinker was on TV as much as the Deliverance creepy banjo player kid Michael Avenatti, the media’s mental health EXPERT. My kind we’re screaming from the rafters that you can not diagnose a patient without examining them per the standards and practices (and ethical concerns) of her governing board.

I listened to many shrinks (many who did not ever consider voting for Trump) say the Yale expert shrink was out of bounds and in violation of profession.

The last laugh was discovered by Mark Levin or somebody that the Yale Professor’s license to practice had expired and thus not fit to practice her craft on anyone, roflmao. If so, it would be a violation of ethics and standards. If that is still the case, I do not know or care.

“I do not diagnose without examination and do not speak about public figures in general....

Belly laugh of the day.

I can hear the 420 Nevada City Brigade now. “We believe her!” Where do these nutjobs come from?

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