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04 October 2020

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scenes

"So what are we to make of those who wish President Trump dead?"

To me, they are simply the natural side effect of years of hysteria.

When Emmanuel Goldstein is on your viewscreen 24/7 for years, the mob is always going to share common attitudes.

It's worth considering what comes next. When Trump is gone...in a week, January 20 2021, January 20 2025, where will they redirect their crazy? You can argue that the MSM and higher education is in charge, but even they are just another mob.

Will the 'white supremacist' moniker be enlarged to more and more people? There's always going to be more Nazis to punch, and you don't really need a Trump or Trotsky to get that Two Minutes Hate fired up.

None of this is even slightly resolved in the short term.

Steven Frisch

"That wish by the president’s opponents and enemies has been reported numerous times since he tested positive for Covid-19 and was admitted to Walter Reed."

Yeah, there are always morally compromised people who wish evil on others....it crosses all ideological boundaries.

Let's be clear, wishing actual ill on others is wrong and morally repugnant. Wishing ill on the President and his family or staff is wrong and morally repugnant.

There is a difference between wishing someone was held accountable for their actions, for example Trump's policy on mitigating Covid-19 and the almost breathtaking irresponsibility of it, and wishing ill.

There is also a difference between hoping someone is held accountable for their crimes, which I believe Trump will be after he loses this election and there is the ability to fully investigate his actions, and wishing them ill.

But to your larger point that...

"Now stepping back to a peacetime political environment; if a group of people sharing an ideology and worldview which holds that the ascendancy/survival of a politician will result in a disaster for their country and its citizens, a disaster that will give rise to uncounted subsequent deaths of innocents through tyrannical and/or negligent public policies, then is it evil to hope for the early and imminent demise of the so-identified dastardly political leader?"

In my opinion the answer is yes, in our political system and in our time, we support the rule of law, and thus it would be evil to hope for or advance a violent outcome rather than the rule of law. I would also say that engaging in rhetoric that encourages others to wish for the violent death of the politician is evil.


scenes

"Trump's policy on mitigating Covid-19 and the almost breathtaking irresponsibility of it, and wishing ill."

Heck, I wish I knew what that even is/was besides funding endless unneeded ventilators, writing checks, and keeping the national labs operating.

It's like blaming the EU for the COVID rate in Italy vs. Germany.

COVID policy is obviously (I wish there was a stronger word than 'obviously') based on the actions of states and counties, the demographics and layout of states and counties, and probably just sheer luck. If it was simply urbanization, DC wouldn't have less than 1/2 the COVID death rate of New Jersey.

But yeah, I know. TRUMP KILLED 200,000 PEOPLE! If it bleeds, it leads.

My guess is that no one will know how the whole deal went down unless they read it in a book in 20 years. The amount of certainty-without-knowledge is itself breathtaking.

Bob Hobert


Let them have their fantasy. Schadenfreude when their man actually keels over. Frisch - we are still waiting for an accounting of Biden's crimes - and he's on tape admitting some big ones. Let's not hold our breath for political accountability.

paul emery

George

Personally I wish Trump a long and healthy life when he becomes our ex- President on Jan 20 2021 which will almost surely happen.

paul emery

Exactly what Biden "crimes" are you referring to that he admitted?

scenes

Paul Emery, October 8, 2016:
"After he loses the election he will be the biggest media star ever and will probably start his own network."

October 9, 2016: " after Hillary wins. "

October 11, 2016: "Come on Gregory do you really think Trump has a chance? It's over. "

Well, at least your braying is consistent.

paul emery

Thanks so much scenes for taking the time to find my "16 posts I really appreciate it. Bring them on. You must have a lot of free time.

scenes

"You must have a lot of free time."

Actually I just have a computer, it does the searching for me. It's like magic.

No problem though.

"Blame the Repubs for picking Trump who was un-electable from the start."

oooh, you used the word "Republicraps" way back when. I guess that 'crap' (which is related to 'chaff', interestingly) sounds like 'crat'. Good one.

"Whatever Trump is doing hasn't worked."


...and, by golly, lots and lots of endless prattling about polls. Some things never change I guess.

I expect that more of the certainty-without-knowledge will crank up sometime in late October 2016 for Mr. Paul. I'll keep an eye out.

paul emery

You do that scenes. I greatly enjoy your reminiscences of times gone by.

Todd Juvinall

Paul Emery has lost it again. All the years of GW Bush we heard him cry about getting into the Iraq war and how Emery hated being the body bag guy for the dead. And how much we all had to agree that was the biggest issue he screamed at Bush about. Then Trump actually stops these wars and brings the troops home to avoid more death. But like a good lefty partisan, not good enough for Emery. You have no cred here so move on to the Nation" where you have a better fit.

George Rebane

Gentlemen - Recall the topic; please stay on it. Also consider the difference between wishing, publicly advocating outcome, and actively working for outcome.

Don Bessee

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-campaign-hosts-call-to-prayer-for-president-trump-and-first-lady-amid-their-coronavirus-diagnoses

;-)

Steven Frisch

Posted by: George Rebane | 04 October 2020 at 02:05 PM

Noted, but....

People are always free to wish, although in the case of wishing ill or physical harm to befall another I consider that immoral, unless in the extreme that person is engaged in the active murder of others. There is a Talmudic passage, “Let sins cease, is written. One should pray for an end to their transgressions, not for the demise of the transgressors themselves.”


In the case of actively working for an outcome of ill or physical harm, well that is a crime and should be prosecuted.

In the case of publicly advocating an outcome, and remember we are speaking of ill or physical harm, that is the rub, and the grey area. In my opinion actively encouraging another person to commit a crime is also a crime...but only if it is specific and actionable...which is a standard that protects political speech.

Let's say someone publicly says, "I wish Bob died," and them someone went out an killed Bob. Not specific and actionable. Let's say the same person said, 'Bob will be at the corner of 1st and Main at 2 pm today, I would like Bob to die, and there is a gun on the table." Specific and actionable. Wishing and directing are not the same thing.

Don Bessee

The prez did a roll by visit -

Trump thanks supporters gathered outside hospital: 'I'm about to make a little surprise visit''

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-thanks-supporters-gathered-outside-hospital-as-he-battles-coronavirus-they-really-love-our-country

;-)

George Rebane

StevenF 257pm - Good specifics, thanks Steve. Would such homilies also apply to a Stalin or Hitler, both of whom had already demonstrated their abilities to slay millions, and slay millions more were they to survive?

scenes

re: GeorgeR@4:43PM

Does the Stalin/Hitler example imply wishing for an accidental death or some sort of direct action like this?

https://dailycaller.com/2020/08/28/fascist-rapist-criminal-dc-protesters-put-trump-effigy-under-guillotine-white-house/

George Rebane

scenes 647pm - StevenF will have to apply his homily here. But I suspect with those two, the wish would be for some sort "direct action".

Bill TozetM r

Gentlemen - Recall the topic; please stay on it. Also consider the difference between wishing, publicly advocating outcome, and actively working for outcome.

Posted by: George Rebane | 04 October 2020 at 02:05 PM

fish

In more attempted “guilt by association” news, Democrat strongholds Portland, Seattle, Chicago (among others) burning and looted most of the summer......Mandersonation whining over at Crabbs about guys in Hawaiian shirts...all three of them. Obligatory MLK quote thrown in for a patina of legitimacy.

Makes me miss the good old days before male menopause set in when he could still get a war boner over thinking about the government mowing down the the Bundy family and supporters with attack helicopters.

Good times.....

Steven Frisch

Posted by: George Rebane | 04 October 2020 at 04:43 PM

These hypotheticals are always difficult, but let me start by saying I included the modifying phrase in my first post,"in our political system and in our time" anticipating just such a hypothetical.

To answer the question directly re: would assassination of Hitler or Stalin be justified: baby Hitler, no; post March 1933 Enabling Act Hitler, yes; post Nuremberg Laws Hitler, hell yes; baby Stalin, no; 1918 Cheka Stalin, yes; 1924 General Secretary Stalin, hell yes.

Steven Frisch

So let's go back to that, "in our political system and in our time."

In our current system we support the rule of law, and a representative democracy.
As such we are members of a social contract that allows for the restriction of some freedoms for the benefit of the whole. We also agree to restrict our actions like the arbitrary or unilateral use of violence to the rule of established laws and norms.

The burden for political violence in our society has to be extremely high in order to protect that social contract...not impossibly so but very, very high.

I have stated here on many occasions that I do not believe that political violence is justified in American society. I have also stated on many occasions that I believe that some of the rhetoric used on this page, and the tacit acceptance of the threat of, or insinuation of, political violence is philosophically un-American and un-patriotic.

I see it as un-patriotic because it threatens the social contract we live under that protects all of us from the excesses of the few, which was one of the key founding principles of the republic. But it is not criminal, nor should it be. The use of effigies [see Scenes example] et.al has to be protected speech, even if distasteful, and the legal line comes when insinuation becomes direct action.

scenes

StevenF. "The burden for political violence in our society has to be extremely high in order to protect that social contract."

So what is the correct response when law enforcement and city government, particularly the mayor and DA's office, completely fail you as in Portland, Seattle, Chicago?

Is huddling in your home a viable response?

" The use of effigies [see Scenes example] et.al has to be protected speech, even if distasteful, and the legal line comes when insinuation becomes direct action."

Interesting point. So is threatening to kill the President a legal act? Should it be?

George Rebane

StevenF 734am et al - Steve, I appreciate your thoughtful comments. I would like to continue and expand this conversation that predictably (and profitably?) is migrating to the larger issue of governance. I will throw in my two cents worth in the appendix to my post.

Steven Frisch

Posted by: scenes | 05 October 2020 at 08:20 AM

With all due respect the extent of the violence in the streets in these cities has been dramatically exaggerated by portions of the media, social media, and by the President. The reality is the locations where rioting led to property damage and violence was limited in most cases to a dozed few square blocks of the cities. In comparison to for example the riots that broke out after the murder of MLK which were very widespread these were contained acts of violence.

With that said, and as I have said several times, no use of political violence, physical violence, or for that matter rioting leading to property damage is acceptable and the perpetrators should be prosecuted, regardless of ideology.

The burden for law enforcement in the cases of Seattle, Portland and Chicago falls at the local level. If those mayors choose to ask the Governor of the state to call in the National Guard, then the decision rests with the Governor, and in all three cities at different times this spring and summer the National Guard was deployed at the request of the Mayors and the approval of the Governor. The last an final resort is the use of federal troops, and that, under current law, is only permissible under current law, at the request of the Governor, unless the clause of the Insurrection Act is triggered that allows for federal action, then there is a set of precedent established through its use in the past.

I would argue that the last thing in the world we want is widespread use of the Insurrection Act; it should be an absolute last resort. None of the cases listed above came anywhere near the triggers necessary.

BTW, if we currently had a democratic President and they were using the Insurrection Act promiscuously I am sure all you all would be the first to scream bloody murder.

Steven Frisch

The use of an effigy is not threatening to kill the subject--it may be distasteful and ugly--but is protected speech. If while burning that effigy the person doing so said, "now go kill the subject" that is specific and direct, and criminal in my book.

Robert Cross

"That wish (trump's death) by the president’s opponents and enemies has been reported numerous times " When, where, and by who has this been reported?

So what are we to make of those who wish President Trump dead?....You have claimed Democrats are evil.. What are we to make of that?

scenes

re: SteveF@9:23AM

I guess I'll ask my question again rather than whatever question you thought you read.

"So what is the correct response when law enforcement and city government, particularly the mayor and DA's office, completely fail you as in Portland, Seattle, Chicago?"

I'm not seeing 'Insurrection Act' or Trump in any of that. Do you? I'm referring to the citizens of those cities.

So far as the size of the riot damage (ie. the 'few square blocks'), I have no idea what was said on MSM, I'm going completely from raw video footage. Shootings of police, more buildings burning and businesses looting than you can count. It's something of a hobby as watching a battle from a distance can be addictive.

The citizens of those towns, and quite a few others, have been failed by their local officials. I'm afraid that burnin' and lootin' and violence are rather like epidemics, if you don't contain them early, you're somewhat out of luck.

Watching this all in action simply tells me that the Left has lost the moral high ground in any political disagreement. What was formerly a fight over healthcare policy or abortion rights has turned into what is essentially a revolution.

On a related note, you should watch the documentary on Bret Weinstein and Evergreen College if you get a chance (on youtube). My working theory is that that is what is in store for all of us.

George Rebane

RobertC 930am - Mr Cross, you are at a disadvantage competing with a sack of hammers - have you no shame at all with such grossly ignorant comments. Your reading habits are clearly the most limited of the liberals who visit these pages. Help yourself for God's sake, just google 'wishing for Trump's death'.

scenes

speaking of the 'few square blocks', I suppose that the insurance industry will be the best back-of-the-napkin estimator of all this.

"Insurers May Rethink Property Risk After Unprecedented Losses From Riots"
https://www.claimsjournal.com/news/national/2020/07/06/298012.htm

Mind you, this is from early July.

Luckily, the 'Transition Integrity Project' (lol, what a bit of legerdemain that name and organization is) informs us that only a landslide from Biden results in less widespread destruction.

I dunno about you, but that's what you might call a 'threat'.

back to the topic: SteveF: " "now go kill the subject" that is specific and direct, and criminal in my book."

I don't know if that's possible anymore. With scads of threats against the President's life (among others) on twitter every day, I think that ship has sailed. If you arrest everyone with a 'Kill Trump' sign or 'imma kill Trump' tweet (on that great gift to humanity known as twitter), the jails would fill up right soon.

We are probably left with actual planning and/or execution as a criminal act from a practical standpoint.

D

Trump's Life Matters! All Lives Matter!
I don't want Trump to physically die, but it would be a classic case of Karma if he did.
It would serve him right for being so clueless.

“It’s been a very interesting journey. I learned a lot about COVID,” Trump said, standing in his hospital room in a video posted on social media. “I learned it by really going to school.”

He added, “I get it, and I understand it."

It only took him 7 months to figure it out.

Scott O

So - when are Duh and the leftys here going to explain the "Karma" of the ones that preached masks, hiding at home and no socializing that get CV?
Look at the tightly controlled and expensive pro sports players getting it.
We have a national economy to run. You leftys think we can just print money and sit at home ordering food to be brought in which will then assure that no one gets CV.
What a joke.
We all have a different level of tolerance for risk. If you want to smugly hide under your bed until CV magically disappears, then do so. The rest of us want to live our lives. Trump never said it was a hoax - he never said he would not get CV - he took more risk than others and now he has it. If he dies, we have a chain of succession to run the country. Life goes on. But only if people get out and produce the things of value we need to continue as a civilization.
And of course - we once again see the left continue to claim Trump did a terrible job with absolutely no idea of what a 'good job' would look like.
Just more hot air and rock-throwing from the losers.

Scott O

Booby 9:30 - "You have claimed Democrats are evil.. What are we to make of that?"
Uh - that Democrats are evil?
Just throwing that out there.
I forgot that leftys have a hard time with plain English.
We conservatives don't use secret code or BS talk.

fish

Posted by: Scott O | 05 October 2020 at 10:56 AM


I especially enjoy the sneer behind both Punchy and (D)ugsKKKi's posts hinting that if only Hillary had prevailed that all those dead people (all 180 million according to putative democratic nominee Joey Fingers) would still still be thriving and happy…that the governments response would have been vastly different!

Don Bessee

Bad news for the TDS haters and a market rally too -

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-tweets-that-he-will-leave-walter-reed-medical-center-tonight-says-he-is-feeling-really-good

;-)

scenes

fish: "that the governments response would have been vastly different!"

Not only the 'government', but the 'national government'.

After all, one of the factotums in the Department of Health and Human Service or the Agriculture department or something is just the guy to invent rules and policy for South Dakota.

It's a laughable accusation, my take is that they still don't know what to do (if anything), but, ya know, Trump!

scotto: "when are Duh and the leftys here going to explain the "Karma" of the ones that preached masks, hiding at home and no socializing that get CV?"

I have the feeling that they think that masks are magic instead of simply lowering the virus load somewhat.

My guess is that the folks that squawk the most are the ones with no jobs to go to and some savings or .gov iron rice bowl. Just imagine the death toll, and not just from suicide, you get from letting the economy free fall due to a national kinda permanent quarantine.

Next up will be the series of vaccines that don't really work. If I had to guess, all that's being done is a change in the timeline of the epidemic while trying to keep the economies on life support. No doubt it's a tricky matter but it doesn't keep the certainty-without-knowledge crowd from piping up.

Robert Cross

George 9:50 --
I did a search and all that came up was articles about social media banning such posts. No information on who actually made the posts, country of origin, or anything at all that would lend credibility to your claim.
Twitter, TikTok and Facebook are not in any way, shape or form reliable sources. Any moron can post whatever they want. What makes you think those tweets, etc. cheering for Trump's death aren't Russian bots targeting old fools like yourself who pass it on as truth because it re-inforces their distorted political viewpoint? Passing along garbage like that just makes you and yours pawns. Dunning-Kruger strikes again..

scenes

re: The original blog entry.

Greenwald asks a good question.

https://theintercept.com/2020/10/04/why-are-democrats-praying-for-the-speedy-recover-of-a-fascist-dictator/

scenes

At least the Democratic party street army has a little honesty.

https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1313218015626846208

Bill Tozer

Bobbie Mary Cross sez to Dr. Rebane:

“No information on who actually made the posts, country of origin, or anything at all that would lend credibility to your claim.
Twitter, TikTok and Facebook are not in any way, shape or form reliable sources. Any moron can post whatever they want. What makes you think those tweets, etc. cheering for Trump's death aren't Russian bots targeting old fools like yourself who pass it on as truth because it re-inforces their distorted political viewpoint?”

Hmmm. Sure are a lot of Russian bots pretending to be a bunch of Obama, Hillary, and Pocahontas staffers and confidants. Gotta watch those commie bastards.

‘I Hope They Die’: Left-Wingers React To Positive Coronavirus Diagnosis For Trump, Melania
https://thefederalist.com/2020/10/02/i-hope-they-die-left-wingers-react-to-positive-coronavirus-diagnosis-for-trump-melania/

D

As the POTUS and FLOTUS vectors spew Covid from their maskless mouths through the hallowed halls of the West Wing and White House contaminating every surface driven by their need for positive imagining optics, more reasonable minds are taking care not to infect others as they live their daily lives.

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