Looking for Uncounted Votes (updated 20nov20)

George Rebane

Daily we hear of another discovered tranche of uncounted votes.  And these announcements are followed by a chorus of leftwingers (Democrats and their talking heads) pooh-poohing the latest discovery because it isn’t enough to swing the majority.  These come with admonitions that such efforts should cease because they ‘prove’ that there are not enough such remaining votes to make a difference.  Actually, that is not only a self-serving criticism of the continuing effort to find more uncounted votes, but it is also a profoundly illogical conclusion and most certainly a very unscientific deduction to come from the party of science.

I’ll soon get to the technical aspects of why it pays to keep looking, but there is also a simpler explanation that is accessible to wider audiences.  The bottom line may be summarized as the ‘tip of the iceberg’ principle.  When you find some more of which you already know there are many more, then there’s a good chance that what you found is neither the only nor the last of such a thing to be found.  If the find is valuable, you keep on looking for more.  This satisficing policy evolved into critters of ALL sizes hundreds of millions of years ago – when you find some food in a region that does not completely satisfy your hunger, you don’t assume that this was the last morsel to be found and you quit looking – not at all, you look around for more.

This policy can now be grounded on some serious science of probabilistics.  Readers may recall that several years ago (2014) I introduced physicist Richard Gott’s work in the calculation of probabilities for arcane questions like how long can the human species expect to survive on earth.  Unfortunately, Gott didn’t express his results in a more comprehensive or clear manner, and his work lay fallow in the mountain of scientific literature.  As a result, and to quote from ‘…, and this too shall pass’ -

“And then I came along – ta-daa!!  Plowing through (Gott’s) paper I was struck by the apparent unrecognized utility of Gott’s theory to the analysis of what we may call minimally known processes (MKPs).  It was immediately clear to me that in our daily round we are awash in such processes, but very few of us are able to identify them as MKPs, and fewer still have heard of Gott.  Since my professional activities continue in various areas of uncertainty, I recognized a diamond in the rough and got to work.  My humble contribution from the effort has been a clear derivation of a simple and elegant formula for Gott’s probability, that I then extended to support dealing with arbitrary future time intervals, and finally demonstrate the complete scalability of the theory.  (For those still awake, we will carry on and promise an intriguing reward to the persistent reader.  Nothing beyond clear thinking and the ability to punch numbers into a couple of simple formulas is required.)”

Actually, since 2014 I’ve done even more work in this area (e.g. here) and have now extended the R-G theory of MKPs to processes that consist of a sequence of arbitrarily timed discrete events, the discovery of discrete tranches of votes is but an example of such minimally known event-driven processes.  As a quick review, we first consider continuous time MKPs for which all that we know is only their age OR their expected lifetime – i.e. the length of time T that they have been going on, or their lifetime T_L.  We ask and answer the question, ‘what is the probability that the MKP will stop in the next time interval ΔT?’  These probabilities are given in the first two equations below.  Then we answer the more comprehensive question, ‘what is the probability that the MKP will stop during in the time interval ΔT₁₂ = ΔT₂ - ΔT₁ that begins at an arbitrary future time ΔT₁ from now and then ends ΔT₂ from now?’  These probabilities are given in the third and fourth equations below.

And then we look at MKPs consisting of a sequence of discrete events about which only the number N of such past events is known OR processes about which we only know the total number of events N_L before it halts.  Here we ask the question, ‘what is the probability that the discrete MKP will halt with at most n (greater than zero) more events?’  These probabilities are given in the first two equations below.  Then we also expand to the more comprehensive question, ‘what is the probability that the MKP will halt within at most n more events after having survived n_F events in the future?’  These probabilities are given in the third and fourth equations below.

So, let’s calculate a few of these probabilities.  A natural first question to ask is ‘Now that we’ve found the first tranche of uncounted votes in (state), what’s the probability that this was the only tranche of uncounted votes, i.e. that we won’t find any more such tranches?’  Well, we know that this minimally known process has started and that N = 1.  So what is the probability that the next discovery will be the last one, i.e. that with n = 1 the process ends?  We use the first equation from the above figure to get 1/(1+1) = 0.5 = 50%.  This also says that there’s a 50% chance that more than one tranche of uncounted votes will be found.

Another way of looking at it is to ask ‘what is the chance that this single find of uncounted votes will be the only one?’  This is the same as asking what is the chance that we will find any number of more tranches, i.e. that the discoveries will end before a very large number n of more tranches will be found.  Putting a large number, say, n = 1000, into the first equation gives 1000/(1+1000) = 0.999 or almost 100% chance that the process will end with no more than 1000 additional tranches found.  That also says that the probability that the MKP ended with its first find is vanishingly small, i.e. it pays to keep looking.

This morning (18nov20) we heard on the news that in Georgia they have now found four tranches of uncounted votes.  Using our above formula, we can calculate the probability that there will be only one more tranche left to find, n = 1, is 1/(4+1) = 0.2.  Another way of looking at this is that there’s an 80% chance that two or more tranches of uncounted votes will be found if the search continues.  The obvious policy would then be to keep on looking in order to discover more uncounted votes and restore confidence in Georgia’s election process.

[20nov20 update]  From the comment stream below, there seems to be some confusion as to the intended takeaway from the above development and commentary.  The purpose of applying some relevant probabilistics to the effort to discover additional uncounted votes is to illustrate and quantify the chances for success in persevering in such pursuits.  My intent here is not to analyze or counsel anyone on the larger question of whether, how, and for how long should contesting the election’s evolving outcome be carried out.  But I do submit that knowing what the chances are for finding additional uncounted votes is a factor that should weigh on the larger question.

Reading such technological essays with incomplete understanding (or poor reading skills) often inspires leftists to expand the topic considered, and attribute to the author all manner of unexpressed intentions.  This in the vein of the revolutionary Jacobins who sent thousands to the guillotine with nothing more than the indictment that ‘We know what you were really thinking”, followed a fortiore on the exact synthesized nature of the unspoken dastardly thoughts and intentions.  Over the years the comment streams of RR have been populated by countless such diatribes directed against me and other commenters of the wrong political coloration.  I suppose there is no point in hoping that such ripostes, no matter how illogical or unreasonable, will ever cease; at a minimum they are grasped opportunities for launching barbs.

Addendum – For those wishing to delve into the details of how the above formulas were derived, please download the following technical notes.

1. Rebane, G.J., TN0708-1: Predicting the Lifetime of Minimally Known Processes – Gott Extended Download TN0708-1_GottExtensionConfirmation190120
2. Rebane, G.J., TN1411-1: Gott’s future duration, …, and this too shall pass Download TN1411-1_and this too shall pass
3. Rebane, G.J., TN1902-1: Predicting Termination of Minimally Known Ongoing Processes Download TN1902-1_lifetimeMKP
4. Rebane, G.J., TN2011-1: R-G Probabilities for Discrete Events Download TN2011-1_DiscreteEventR-Gprobs

Comments

[Walt]

And look just who the racists really are where vote counting is concerned. (hint... It ain't the White folk.)
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/11/18/watch-democrats-launch-personal-attacks-against-wayne-county-republican-canvassers/

[L]

I'm already on record as predicting GA would be given to Trump upon recount. Unfortunately, I'm also fairly sure that GA was a secondary target for the Dims.

On another front, looks like PA is on its way back to the SCOTUS as the partisan Dim Supreme Court of the Commonwealth will be denying the R challenges. From there up the chain where Benedict Roberts won't hold a decisive vote, thanks to Trump's diligence is foreseeing just such a development

[L]

The real challenge is to get the truth out of Michigan and Wisconsin. The action in Wayne is noteworthy, but also of the sideshow variety designed to waste time and resources. The issue here is not pissant Dim petty theft at the fringes- that's just who they are; it's the 110k overnight dumps (likely difficult to prove) or the Dominion/Hammer etc. crap that shifted votes from T to B. This is where the action will be.

[Walt]

And this seat stays in Repub side. And in NY no less.
https://dailycaller.com/2020/11/18/new-york-jackie-gordon-concedes-andrew-garbarino-house-congress/

Yes, every legal vote counts.

[D]

Poor, brainwashed "L". Still no proof Lar. missing "miracle" ballot counts are not enough to matter.
But I guess Trumpers will continue to print these fake ballots for Trump and "find" those ballots.

[L]

Keach, the mental attitude you continue to display (7:25) isn't partisan, it is criminal. The ballots aren't "printed" by Trumpers, but "lost" by deep staters.

[Walt]

Notice the key words that the Proggy Press is using?
" No "widespread" voter fraud." It doesn't need to be "widespread". Just where they need to.

[paul emery]

George

As a Constitutional scholar what is you opinion of this Trump tactic to flip he election?

"According to the Washington Post’s Amy Gardner, the Michigan lawmakers are flying into Washington at Trump’s request.

Trump’s legal team has spent the last two weeks trying to overturn the results in Michigan, despite the fact that Biden defeated him in that state by more than 150,000 votes.

Trump’s legal team has said that they want GOP-led legislatures in swing states to appoint their own electors who will overturn the vote results in their states and hand the election to Trump.

Such a move would be unprecedented in the history of American democracy and many legal scholars believe that it would not be permitted by the Constitution.

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/11/michigan-gop-lawmakers-meeting-with-trump-as-he-tries-to-stop-state-from-certifying-biden-win/

[SexBuxton]

Sorry Lar, yours and Trump’s conspiracies are criminal and doing major damage.
You have no proof, Trump has no proof.

Please show is the board of directors, organizational structure, and membership.
Oh, you can’t. Then STFU

[Gregory]

Punchy... rawstory?... again?

[George Rebane]

My internet is down.

[paul emery]

So What
Quotes are from the Washington Post Gregory.

Are you saying they are are made up?

[Walt]

Hi Emery!! A little tip for the poll dancer.
https://www.breitbart.com/2020-election/2020/11/19/nolte-top-pollster-finds-47-say-likely-democrats-stole-election/
"Top Pollster Finds 47% Say ‘Likely’ Democrats Stole Election"

A poll that plenty closer than anything you were saying about some fantasy "blue wave".

[paul emery]

clarification:

Information is from Washington Post.

Rusty Gulli's press conference today verified details.

[Walt]

"jon" has reared his ugly head.. We have more "proof" then what you and your Proggys tried to pass in 3.7 years.

You don't get out much... Do you,,? Try something other than the Proggy Press greasing you up good... Judging by your new TROLL name,, the grease has been applied "Liberally". It's your choice to ever walk upright and normal ever again.

[Gregory]

punchy

you're obviously just skimming rawstory looking for rawmeat you don't have to think about

so, you saw today's presser? nothing to say about it?

[Walt]

Here is some bad news for Emery and crew.
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/11/19/georgia-county-elections-director-fired-after-audit-finds-uncounted-votes/
"The board met for little more than an hour Thursday afternoon in a special meeting, which resulted in [Floyd Chief of Elections Clerk Robert Brady’s] termination. Officials cited at least two reprimands that Brady received in the past six months as the reason for his firing. […] Election officials discovered around 2,600 votes that were not counted in the county’s total earlier this week during the statewide audit. Election workers ultimately had to recount more than 8,000 ballots to get to the bottom of the problem."

"The elections board of Floyd County, Georgia, on Thursday voted to terminate its executive director after an audit found ballots left uncounted prior to the county’s initial certification."

[Larry Wirth]

BA @ y1:22- you're addressing the wrong respondent, it's Keach who can't supply the requested organizational chart for QAnon and needs the advice. Please fix your broken thinker.

[Bill Tozer]

Well, sitting here in the peanut gallery watching the action on the floor, I encourage all readers of all persuasions to think back briefly to before 2020, before 2016, and before 2008.

Every single time the mere mention of voter fraud prior to 2008 drew the immediate knee jerk reaction from the Left that “There is NO voter fraud! Period. End of conversation.”

But now we have moved beyond the denial of the very existence of voter fraud to its not widespread voter fraud to well, the voter fraud was not enough to sway the election. (But, a $100k buy in on Facebook was?).

Anyway, I think we are making real progress here folks. Baby steps,

[Scott O]

SB 11:22 - "...Trump’s conspiracies are criminal and doing major damage."
Must be fun - just make up any sort of pearl-clutching hysteria with not one shred of proof or evidence.
Repeat as necessary - right?

[George Rebane]

Administrivia - Internet back up. ATT is an abysmally POS company. Please note the 20nov20 update above.

[paul emery]

Scott writes:

"Must be fun - just make up any sort of pearl-clutching hysteria with not one shred of proof or evidence."

That applies to Trump of course. So far not one bit of evidence that comes near to switching the election. He's pretty pathetic as is his faded Lawyer Rudy the Drip who made a fool of himself yesterday.

[George Rebane]

re PaulE 355pm - Excellent progress from denying the existence of any evidence of fraud, to claiming that "So far not one bit of evidence that comes near to switching the election." - so far indeed.

[paul emery]

George

Rudy himself said he couldn't release any evidence to the public because it's criminal and needs to be investigated first. It that is the case it may take months to be resolved. What are you proposing happens with the election? Are you of the belief that Trump should remain president in the meantime?

[Gregory]

"Rudy himself said he couldn't release any evidence to the public because it's criminal and needs to be investigated first"

I didn't hear him say that, Punch. I did hear Giuliani and Powell say they weren't free to release more than they have already because they would be presenting it in court in the next two weeks.

Can't you wait two weeks?

[Gregory]

Does anyone know if Dominion Voting Systems are used locally, meaning Nevada County? I did see in the company's website that they've sold into 40 different counties in California, but didn't find a definitive list.

[Gregory]

the answer to my 428pm is apparently no, unless they're splitting hairs about that specific product...
https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/ovsta/frequently-requested-information/voting-systems-used-counties/how-use-your-countys-voting-system/dominion-voting-systems-imagecast-evolution

[D]

Yes Gregory, Dominion systems are only used in counties where LaMalfa wins.

[George Rebane]

PaulE 407pm - I am disappointed that Giuliani and Powell can present no evidence publicly that will get traction. If the real reason is that these are all criminal cases for which evidence cannot be released, then there's also no real reason to oppose the transition and Biden's inauguration. The criminal cases will continue on their merits, and if subsequent convictions occur then Biden can be impeached (were he involved/guilty) or forced to resign (and Kami or Nancy becomes president).

Without releasable evidence of fraud, Trump should move on and start planning for 2024 if he still feels electable. But in the meantime, the investigations into the various kinds of reported fraud should continue, if only to determine ways to make future elections more secure.

[paul emery]

Gregory

Presenting it in court is not the same as establishing it is true. First there would need to be an investigation and who knows how long that would take.

Gregory

If this process were to take weeks or months would you support Trump remaining President till the process is completed?

[Gregory]

Rip Van Punchy, you fundamenally misunderstand... have you been asleep? Either there will be 270 electors in place in mid December, or the election of President will happen in the House of Representatives.

There will be an inauguration of someone on Jan 20th.

[paul emery]

Well George we agree on this one. There will soon be a time to move the process along despite what Trump thinks .

That was also the opinion of the Michigan Republicans that met with Trump today. This seems to be their opinion. From Politico

"It was unclear how many GOP legislators visited the White House, but the group included Michigan state Senate Majority Leader Mike Shirkey and House Speaker Lee Chatfield. Jason Wentworth, who is succeeding Chatfield as speaker, was also spotted at a D.C. airport.

After the meeting, Shirkey and Chatfield said in a joint statement they had "not yet been made aware of any information that would change the outcome of the election in Michigan.".....

Later in the Politico article:

"Shirkey confirmed the sentiment after the meeting in his joint statement with Chatfield.

"We will follow the law and follow the normal process regarding Michigan's electors, just as we have said throughout this election," they said. "Michigan's certification process should be a deliberate process free from threats and intimidation."

The lawmakers said they also presented Trump with a letter at the meeting requesting additional federal funds to assist the state in its fight against the coronavirus pandemic. Republicans and Democrats have failed for months to pass an additional round of Covid relief money, despite a bipartisan agreement that more financial assistance is needed."

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/20/michigan-gop-dc-trump-election-438690

[Gregory]

George, chill out. There is no hurry.

[Gregory]

punchy wrote
"Presenting it in court is not the same as establishing it is true. First there would need to be an investigation and who knows how long that would take."

The investigation is happening now and Trump's legal reps have promised it will be presented in court in a couple weeks.

"If this process were to take weeks or months would you support Trump remaining President till the process is completed?"

Trump's first term will end when the next president is sworn in on Jan 20. This process will result in either Trump or Biden being the one standing there, taking the oath.

[paul emery]

Who is conducting the investigation Gregory? State, Federal or Trumps legal teams investigators?

[Gregory]

Paul... you don't know?

[Gregory]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-wants-congress-to-decide-election-and-that-strategy-could-win-dershowitz-says/ar-BB1bdezw?mc_cid=c8c72d54e5&mc_eid=50882e5b3b

[paul emery]

It's not clear from what I've read. What do you know about it? This would be a good time for Barry to chime in. He is, of course, a lawyer and would know the process.

[RV Ranchiarrhea]

"Presenting it in court is not the same as establishing it is true. First there would need to be an investigation and who knows how long that would take."

No indictments, no guilt. Indictments are proof of guilt. Just ask Arthur Anderson and the Enron trial.

[Don Bessee]

If not for double standards they would have none at all -

CNN pundit says Trump’s rumored actions ‘out of bounds,’ but is reminded Dems did same in 2016

'It’s so out of bounds that the same thing happened not 4 years ago,' Stephen L. Miller wrote

https://www.foxnews.com/media/cnn-correspondent-abby-phillip-election-trump

;-)

[Gregory]

Not a criminal court matter at this time, RVR.

Punchy, read it more. Think!

[paul emery]

Gregory

Well then what is the process and who determines if what Rudy and the crew produce in court about the election is factual? Got to do do more than just accept it at face value.

[Joe Sixpack]

Tiny has determined the Drippy`s allegations are rock solid fact...and sadly, 77% of Repugnantcans will accept this as fact. Amazing.

[Gregory]

Paul, I've already mentioned everything you need to understand. So did Dersh.

[Gregory]

A little historical hint... the last time this (possible) route was taken was the election of 1824.

[Bill Tozer]

@ 7:05 pm

“Got to do do more than just accept it at face value.”

Why, it’s never stopped you before. Putin has blackmail material on Trump, Trump is in Putin’s pocket, 17 Intel agencies agree...
————————-
Contrary to The Enemy of the People’s talking points, the media as no right to see evidence. None.

“Well, the unabashed arrogance of the media was on full display today, as they were demanding to see the evidence. They are not entitled to see the evidence. Evidence is presented in a court of law, eyewitnesses, affidavits, sworn under penalty of perjury. That is how the legal process goes. So as Giuliani pointed out, he has to go state by state. It takes time. It’s taken two weeks to gather that evidence, and now he is going about the arduous task of presenting it judge by judge, jurisdiction by jurisdiction. But look, where you have blank ballots that are assigned names, thousands of them, and then filled in with votes, when you have thousands of backdated ballots, when you have ballots that don’t match valid voters, when you have ballots that don’t match signatures, and importantly, where you have the integrity of voting machines and the critical software called into serious question because there is a backdoor that allows tens of thousands of votes to be transferred from one candidate to another instantaneously, with the click of a mouse or the stroke of a keyboard, these need to be looked at in a court of law. That is how the process works. Of course, the media could be searching for this evidence on their own, but they wouldn’t do that because that would jeopardize their coronation of their chosen candidate, Joe Biden, and it would be the responsible journalistic thing to do, and they’ve proven they won’t do it.”—GJ

[Don Bessee]

Creepy grampa joe is a joke in china -

https://www.breitbart.com/asia/2020/11/19/hong-kong-bakery-decorates-cake-uncle-joe-biden-sniffing-anime-girl/

;-)

[fish]

Creepy grampa joe is a joke in china -

Here too.......

[Bill Tozer]

From Don’s 8:45 pm

“Since his days as senator, reporters have photographed Biden sniffing the hair or neck of various women and girls, as well as appearing to touch them inappropriately. The Washington Post referred to Biden in 2015 as a “creepy uncle.””

A creepy uncle is one whom you do not want to be seated at your Thanksgiving Table.

[fish]

I’m just so angry.....so angry at this......angry as only an old man channeling a thirteen year old girl can be angry at Trumps latest grift......just angry......did I mention that I was angry.....

@JoeBiden

Joe Biden

Here's the deal: “Because President Trump refuses to concede and is delaying the transition, we have to fund it ourselves and need your help.

If you're able, chip in to help fund the Biden-Harris transition."

https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1329878933043515392

Wait......wut....?

[George Rebane]

Gentlemen, keep it on the voter fraud topic. The sandbox is for your ad hominems for Biden, Trump, Rudy, ...

[Gregory]

"To Err is Human
To really screw things up takes a computer"
-wisdom circa 1965

This election seems to have gotten really screwed up. There may be no way to unscrew it.

That makes it a job for the House of Representatives for the President, the Senate for the VP.

And this is what makes it really fun... every state gets one vote. The California delegation fights it out, agrees to vote for Biden. One vote.

Wyoming's one congresscritter thinks a bit and decides to cast Wyoming's vote for Trump.

This is what happens when a party trashes an election to ensure its ticket wins. that's the Democrats this time, folks. Not the GOP.

It still might not happen. I give it maybe a 40/60 chance but what do I know?

[Walt]

No,, it wasn't the foxs guarding the hen house, it was the pack of weasels. A fox actually has a bit of honor...
With weasels,, one will lie,, and all the others will swear to it.

[Barry Pruett]

To be fair George there’s like seven different threads of voter fraud. I don’t know where to put anything. Lol

[George Rebane]

Barry 627am - not a problem, put your fraud comments under any of them you like; I am only talking about naked ad hominems.

[Bill Tozer]

What do Lizzy Warren, Amy Klobuchar, and Ron Wyden have in common?

'Democratic senators warned of potential 'vote switching' by Dominion voting machines prior to 2020 election'

"In a December 2019 letter to Dominion Voting Systems, which has been mired in controversy after a human error involving its machines in Antrim County, Michigan, resulted in incorrect counts, Democratic Sens. Elizabeth Warren, Ron Wyden, and Amy Klobuchar and congressman Mark Pocan warned about reports of machines “switching votes,” “undisclosed vulnerabilities,” and “improbable” results that “threaten the integrity of our elections.”

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/democratic-senators-warned-of-potential-vote-switching-by-dominion-voting-machines-prior-to-2020-election?

[Bill Tozer]

Why would USA Today find it necessary to print this? Are they also now a rightwing rag? No, pointing out Matrix is not perfect does not make USA Today a traitor to the cause.

'Will your ballot be safe? Computer experts sound warnings on America's voting machines'

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2020/11/02/computer-experts-sound-warnings-safety-americas-voting-machines/6087174002/

[paul emery]

Gregory writes:

"This is what happens when a party trashes an election to ensure its ticket wins. that's the Democrats this time, folks. Not the GOP."

What proof do you have for that statement Gregory?

[fish]

Posted by: paul emery | 21 November 2020 at 08:12 AM

What proof do you have for that statement Gregory?

Go Matlock go......!

[NC Right Wing Watch]

Do you guys really enjoy being Cult Members? The whole thing is funny to watch. Sidney Powell is full of SHIT. Not a single person here has stated the obvious.

[George Rebane]

PaulE 520pm - Paul, I think you misunderstand what a court does with introduced evidence. It does not launch a new investigation, but merely decides whether there need be a trial given the evidence for a complaint or wrong doing, and whether parties have appropriate standing to deal with the court. The trial itself will determine the verity and impact the evidence has on the complaint.

Greg 542pm - "Chill out."??!! Interesting response given my most reasonable 519pm.

[paul emery]

George

I appreciate you informing you on this process. So if there needs to be a trial there first must be an investigation and arrests right? that of course would involve law enforcement investigating and making arrests if appropriate. Either way it would take months. For example look how long it took to slam the sleaze Maninfort.

So the question is how this process would effect the election results. If indeed the courts determined after a trial that Biden broke the law then impeachment would be the remedy and he would have the same privileges that Trump exercised as POTUS. Of course that wouldn't apply to others arrested if it came to that.

Either way it would take a long time and wouldn't change the reality that Biden is the President elect.

[Bill Tozer]

"I appreciate you informing you on this process."

Well, at least you are informed by you.

[paul emery]

Thanks for catching the typo Bill. You're good at that. As usual you have no input on the subject but who cares.

[Gregory]

"So the question is how this process would effect the election results. If indeed the courts determined after a trial that Biden broke the law then impeachment would be the remedy and he would have the same privileges that Trump exercised as POTUS. Of course that wouldn't apply to others arrested if it came to that."

Punchy... can you think of any court hearings... that aren't criminal? Like when a citizen sues in XXXXX court to protest some government action and requesting a XXXXX court order to remedy the problem?

"What a maroon! What an ignoranimus!"
-bugs

[paul emery]

Well Gregory the scope of the conspiracy that Rudy alleges suggests a massive international conspiracy that would defiantly require a criminal investigation.

[Gregory]

gr 1133am

You had written, "Without releasable evidence of fraud, Trump should move on and start planning for 2024 if he still feels electable. But in the meantime, the investigations into the various kinds of reported fraud should continue, if only to determine ways to make future elections more secure.".

That they do not want to publicly release what they have, showing their hand to the jackals in the press and their opposition (but I repeat myself), does not mean they should drop out and think about 2024. It means everyone needs to CHILL OUT.

[George Rebane]

PaulE 1152am - Not sure that all such evidence submittals require extensive investigations, but they probably will have to pass before a grand jury to hand down an indictment. I'm not quibbling about the timeliness of it all, and have said so. If it's criminal, and will take a long pre-trial time to sort out by Trump's lawyers and LE agencies, then I've already said that the transition should be started and Biden be sworn in. What more do you want?

[George Rebane]

Gregory 239pm - don't recall anyone suggesting that they drop the investigations. Like walking and chewing gum, Team Trump can continue the investigations and think about 2024.

[Gregory]

Well Punchy (233pm), that would be another process altogether and I doubt it would happen at all if Biden gets sworn in on 1/20/2021.

What Sidney and Rudy will be arguing in the next week or three is in a XXXXX court, not a criminal court. Can you fill in the blanks for XXXXX?

[paul emery]

Even if it's a Civil Court Gregory the facts still need to be verified if there is a legal judgement to be rendered. That of course take time.

[Bill Tozer]

Pick a card, any card. Just The News has too many links to post to keep up on what is happening. Patience is needed in the Year of the Reckoning.

https://justthenews.com/

Oh, voter fraud does not need an investigation. It’s just needs an injunction from a judge. That’s the Dem playbook. First do judge shopping and run to the most sympathetic fellow or lady in a black robe. Didn’t Biden treat Justice Thomas rather shamefully? Anyway, if Sydney is shooting blanks, then it’s over. If not, then it is beautiful in it’s unfolding. A rose.

Just takes a judge to throw out a state here, a state there. Wouldn’t that be a fine mess. Queen Nan, the temporary POTUS. Lol

[paul emery]

Pennsylvania’s Republican senator, Pat Toomey, congratulated President-elect Joe Biden and Vice President-elect Kamala Harris on Saturday night.

Earlier in the day, a judge in Pennsylvania ended the Trump campaign’s legal efforts after Rudy Giuliani’s legal team could not provide evidence to back up their conspiracy theories and delusions about the facts and the law.

Direct quote from Sen Pat Toomey

“With today’s decision by Judge Matthew Brann, a longtime conservative Republican whom I know to be a fair and unbiased jurist, to dismiss the Trump campaign’s lawsuit President Trump has exhausted all plausible legal options to challenge the result of the presidential race in Pennsylvania,” Toomey said in a statement.

“I congratulate President-elect Biden and Vice President-elect Kamala Harris on their victory. They are both dedicated public servants and I will be praying for them and for our country,”

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/11/pennsylvanias-gop-senator-admits-biden-won-trump-has-exhausted-all-plausible-legal-options/

[Bill Tozer]

Holy Smokes. Now PBS is a right wing rag.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/will-georgias-new-voting-machines-solve-election-problems-or-make-them-worse

[Don Bessee]

The pony tail of ignorance loves him some rawstory. Problem for him is -

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/11/21/trump-lawyers-pennsylvania-lawsuit-dismissal-moves-us-closer-to-supreme-court/

;-)

[Gregory]

Golly, Punch 248pm, if you'd bothered to read the piece by Dersh, he seemed to think there was plenty of time to work some magic in court.

But in general you don't read and when you do read, you don't understand or remember.

[Bill Tozer]

There is a wee bit of time left, but Gregory gets my vote for the quote of the weekend.

"To Err is Human
To really screw things up takes a computer"
-wisdom circa 1965

[paul emery]

I did read it Gregory and thought it interesting but not a likely scenerio. What is ol'Dersh up to now days? Don't hear much about him. Last I heard he endorsed Joe Biden

"Alan Dershowitz, a longtime Harvard law professor and frequent contributor to Fox News, said Thursday he could "enthusiastically" support Joe Biden over Donald Trump if the two meet in the 2020 presidential race.

But Dershowitz would not support Bernie Sanders, he said in a report from The Hill.

Speaking on The Dan Abrams Show on Sirius XM Dershowitz told host Dan Abrams that he has liked Biden "a long time."

"I'm a strong supporter of Joe Biden. I like Joe Biden. I've liked him for a long time, and I could enthusiastically support Joe Biden," Dershowitz said on the show.

Abrams then asked, "Over Donald Trump?"

"Over Donald Trump, yeah," Dershowitz said."

https://www.newsweek.com/alan-dershowitz-says-he-would-enthusiastically-vote-biden-over-trump-2020-matchup-1443945

[Don Bessee]

Giving away the hispanic vote with socialist retoric and defund the police and the green new deal. Its going to stick and will pay big dividends in two years! -

But, in interviews with more than a dozen experts on Hispanic voters in six states, no factor was as salient as Trump’s blue-collar appeal for Latinos.

“Most Latinos identify first as working-class Americans, and Trump spoke to that,” said Josh Zaragoza, a top Democratic data specialist in Arizona, adding that Hispanic men in particular “are very entrepreneurial. Their economic language is more aligned with the way Republicans speak: pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, owning your own business.”

And then there’s the way the left spoke — or were framed by Trump’s campaign for speaking. Calls to “defund the police,” a boycott of Goya Foods and the threat of socialism turned off some Latino voters. And even using the term Latinx to describe Latinos in a way that’s gender-neutral only served to puzzle many Hispanics.

“About 97 percent of Latinos don’t say ‘Latinx,’” Zaragoza said, referring to a Pew Research poll on the subject. “We’re building strategies around young progressive activists and organizations — and they’re necessary and we appreciate what they do.

“But a lot of Latino voters are focused on ‘I’m a hardworking American trying to feed my family or build a business,’ and a lot of this language doesn’t speak to them.”

https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/culture-wars-fuel-trump-blue-120032820.html

;-)