“… to protect the children.” (addended with 9jun22 update)

George Rebane

That is the only slim thread of agreement that the Republicans and Democrats have for new legislation pursuant to the mass killing of students and teachers in Uvalde, Texas this week.  Yet the Dems’ solution continues to be to enact senseless gun legislation to stop senseless mass shootings.  Their entire initiative is based on appealing to the hoped for raw emotional response of their constituents to ‘do something’, or anything that can be used to advance the final objective of removing firearms from the country’s law-abiding civilian population.

The Dems’ entire argument is that since ‘guns kill people’, the “gun lobby” (aka NRA) wants more people killed through the unhindered sale of more guns.  For the Left there are no other considerations for the private ownership of guns, least of all the antiquated and misconstrued Second Amendment to defend against rogue government.  Every successive gun control measure is understood to be nothing more or less than a ratchet toward socialist autocracy’s final objective of an unarmed, compliant citizenry.

In a country with over 340 million variously un/registered firearms, there is no guarantee that a quietly deranged person with no previous criminal record or recorded history of mental instability will be stopped from a serendipitously inspired and spontaneously launched mass murder.  LE officials have told us for decades that no level of gun restrictions will bring an end to what happened in Uvalde.

What journalists and clear-thinking politicians don’t ask, during the inevitable gun control hysteria that follows every mass shooting, is ‘what is the evidence that this legislation would have stopped the previous mass murderers, or will stop them in the future?’  Posing this question will quickly reveal the real purpose for the newly proposed gun control measures.

The real solution – possibly unattainable – is what may be called a ‘cultural reset’.  The American culture of, say, fifty years ago prevented such mass murders occurring in a population equally populated with firearms – both semi-auto pistols and long guns.  Today, wholesale human life is cheapened and cheap.  With widespread and instant salacious news coverage, we continually hear of hundreds of people gunned down weekly without giving it much if any thought.  Unless the life belongs to family or close friends, the deaths don’t matter much irrespectively how they are snuffed out.

And our polarized society no longer supports community-wide solutions.  Remaining solutions have become very personalized – you pull up stakes and move to a safer place if you can, or you stay put, become insular, and hunker down while the killing continues around you.  That will continue in perpetuity as long as the state makes it so that only criminals have guns to use with impunity on an unarmed citizenry.  To various extents this has proven to be true both under so-called liberal democracies and police-state tyrannies.

A cultural reset, even if attempted, will take at least a generation to gain traction in our society.  In the meantime, IMHO we should recognize the ground truth that active killers with guns are stopped only by defenders with guns.  So, if we really have an interest to do something to protect the children, then we must always remember that when seconds count, LE is minutes (or more) away.  Actually, an hour away in Uvalde and similarly at previous shooting sites.  As far as the killer is concerned, LE has not arrived until he is assaulted with arms.  It doesn’t matter how quickly LE arrives on the scene, the clock starts when the killer perceives that his further intentions will now be curtailed.  For example, LE getting to the Uvalde school and dicking around for an hour before a Border Patrol agent confronted and shot the killer, means that LE effectively arrived an hour late.  So consider -

Policies that don’t work – place one security officer per school.  These have proven to be career-limited, marginally trained, timid people who either have no idea that killing is taking place in another part of the school, or who will not confront the killer until summoned LE people (‘back-up’) arrive to take control of the incident.

Policies that have a chance of working – Every teacher and certain staffers are trained and required to be concealed-carry armed when on duty.  This policy is then made public.  Israel has demonstrated the efficacy of such policy.  (more here)

[Addendum]  In ongoing discussions about solutions to such wanton and unpredictable massacres, it was brought out that there may be a significant share of teachers who will refuse to be trained and armed.  The point makes sense since so many teachers are liberals/progressives whose logic doesn’t always concur with reality – e.g. similar to those leftwingers who believe that declaring a building or facility a ‘gun-free zone’ will hinder instead of attract the manic mass murderer.  No matter, for whatever reasons, not all teachers can qualify or be relied upon to be armed and confront their students' would-be killer.

The alternative to concealed-carry teachers in the classroom is a cadre of volunteer CCW holders who would also receive the required additional training.  These would come from the students’ parents, grandparents, and (retired) friends or community volunteers.  I’d bet the farm that there would be more than enough volunteers to sit in the back of classrooms while instruction is going on.  Each school could have a ‘security coordinator’ volunteer to coordinate with the school’s administration, maintain the active roster, and manage the ‘duty calendar’ for the classroom security volunteers.  The marginal cost to the school district and community would be nil.

Given today’s mobile devices (laptops, pads, smart phones, …), the security volunteers can easily be productive on their own projects as they carry out their assigned watches.  I know from our family’s circle of friends and contacts, that almost everyone would volunteer who could pass the training requirements.  As an example, for years I was a member of the Banner Mountain firewatch team and pulled many a 4-6 hour morning and afternoon stints on the tower (until the tower was decommissioned).  It was a rewarding experience, as I’m sure it would also be to serve as a classroom security volunteer.

(For the record, America's CCW holders are the most reliable and law-abiding cohort of citizens when it comes to psychological stability, gun safety and proficiency, and criminality/gun violence.  Statistically, you are six times more likely to be assaulted by a rogue LE officer than a CCW permit holder.)

[28may22 update]  A commenter raised a valid question about the availability of sufficient volunteers to implement the above described classroom security approach.  I’ve taken a more detailed look at the numbers, and it appears to be doable.  These back-of-envelope calculations are available here -  Download Classroom Security Volunteers.  Readers thoughts are always welcome, especially as they point out any errors or weaknesses (not already covered in the comment stream below).

[4jun22 update]  Certify retired military personnel to serve as armed school security guards – so proposes Sen Lindsey Graham (R-SC).  Above I have made case for such a solution that can be implemented more rapidly than any ineffective anti-gun legislation.  (more here)

The Left, of course, is dead-set against such a practical solution, and surprisingly they are joined by some folks from the other side who also think it’s the dumbest thing they ever heard of.  Nevertheless, that kind of solution, using trained and certified volunteer security guards, is staring us in the face with no reasonable opposition save ‘schools should remain a gun-free zone’, or more simply, ‘it’s a stupid idea that will never work’.

[9jun22 update]  Well, things may be looking up with getting more defensive guns into schools and classrooms.  Reports are coming in that in certain red states teachers are volunteering to carry guns (here).  And we now hear that even in progressive New Jersey militant parents are convincing school districts to hire off-duty and retired LE officers to serve as added security in schools (here).  These people will be paid.  So that brings us a few steps closer to the volunteer security concept outlined here as the affordable solution to protect our children.

BTW, does everyone notice that the ‘do something’ new gun regs coming out of the House have nothing to do with protecting the children?  (They’re just a desperate Dem election issue since everything else they propose is a demonstrable disaster for the country.)  And no Republican has the balls to resist the new ‘do something’ hysteria by asking why existing gun regs – from past ‘do something’ hysterias - aren’t being enforced and/or have proven to be totally ineffective in reducing ‘gun violence’.

Comments

[Scott O]

As in most of these situations, what actually happened is hard to discern. First it was reported that he had body armor and now I'm reading maybe he didn't. I have read some accounts saying that the school safety officer was there and 'engaged' the killer. Whatever that means. This should be easily available info by now, but yelling at your political enemies is more fun.
We know how to stop this sort of thing at schools but I seem to recall certain folk complaining that they don't want to turn their schools into an 'armed camp'.
Shrug - OK, then enjoy dead children. Right now the problem/remedy flow chart always starts at the bottom first with the remedy being "blame Republicans" and then it winds its path upwards towards the problem. It shows us the left and the Dems are not serious about actually stopping the problem.

[Gregory]

There is a claim the newest dead shooter (best kind) was wearing a vest that had pockets for bullet resistant plates, but he didn't have the plates.

Again, here's a list of grievances over HR 8 that Congresscritter Scalise wrote up:

https://www.republicanwhip.gov/news/h-r-8-facts-and-failures/

and

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/rep-steve-scalise-democrats-dont-want-you-to-hear-what-i-have-to-say-about-guns-and-the-second-amendment

[Gregory]

"Policies that have a chance of working – Every teacher and certain staffers are trained and required to be concealed-carry armed when on duty. This policy is then made public. Israel has demonstrated the efficacy of such policy"

Gaaaad no! Not in this country and not with this country's teaching and administrative school staff. It is my understanding that in Texas today, by district, schools can allow concealed carry by teachers and staff who have a CCW. Opt in, not required.

I've heard it claimed that to date, there've been no shootings, accidental or on purpose, in the districts that allow staff to carry concealed in accordance with local law.

[Gregory]

Paul Emery...

I assume you have had a chance to look it up. Are you now convinced all retail gun sales come with a background check, and the latest shooter did pass?

[Paul Emery]

Here's what I found Gregory

"The 18-year-old who shot and killed 19 children and two adults at an elementary school in Uvalde, Texas, legally bought the weapon he used, law enforcement officials said Wednesday.

Salvador Ramos purchased two AR-style rifles at a local federal firearms licensee on May 17 and on May 20, according to the Texas Department of Public Safety. He also purchased 375 rounds of ammunition on May 18, according to Texas DPS.

In Texas, an individual between the ages of 18 and 21 can buy a long gun or rifle, such as an AR-15. With certain exceptions, an individual must be 21 to buy a handgun.

Carrying a gun in Texas required a permit, until September 2021, when a state law freed Texans from the permit requirement. Texas Gov. Greg Abbott signed a bill last summer championed by gun rights' advocates that allowed for permitless carry."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-school-shooting-ar15-gun-laws/

[Scott O]

Typical Psul - blows his mouth off and then decides to look up the facts.

[Gregory]

And Paul... he passed the background checks? You had claimed both rifles were purchased without it.

So, what did the background check prove?

Carrying without a permit isn't likely to stop a murderer, is it? Do you see Ramos deciding against carrying the gun to the school to murder a bunch of kids because it would mean he could also be found guilty on a much lesser charge... assuming he had any idea he'd live through it.

The white-adjacent Virginia Tech shooter a number of years ago was apparently getting tired of pulling the trigger 'cause he shot himself when he heard LEA driving up.

[Don Bessee]

Here is another brainiac who does not know the difference between an AR15 and an AK47 -

Washington Post editor flamed for claiming the AR-15 rifle was ‘invented for’ the Nazis

;-)

[Paul Emery]

The background check did not include the mental stability or maturity of the purchaser and no permit is necessary in Texas for rifles. Purchase required only a felony and age check as I understand it. If you find more information let me know. So Gregory how is it that in Texas you can buy two AR 15's and hundreds of round of ammunition without a permit and you cannot legally drink a beer? Don't you find that a little odd? Also less than 2 ounces of pot carries a maximum penalty of 180 days in jail and a fine of up to $2,000.

[psfish]

Posted by: Psul Emery | 26 May 2022 at 02:51 PM

…..truly the king of changing the subject.

[Don Bessee]

Stupid is as stupid does @251

;-)

[Paul Emery]

I agree with you Don. It's stupid that you can legally buy two AR 15's and hundreds of rounds of ammunition at the age of 18 and at the same time can't buy a beer.

[Gregory]

The background check is not an FBI investigation, Punch. There is no sainted Bureaucrat in charge of background checks with the wizdumb to decide who is worthy. It's a query of all databases that know if you are sleeping, know if you're awake, know if you've been bad or good, yad yada yada.

If you've been adjudicated a loony, you won't get the gun...unless a bureaucrat didn't enter the judgement into the database.

This isn't hard. The rifle is there and you have a right to own it unless your actions have marked you as someone who doesn't get to own and carry guns. That's what the background check *IS*.

Now, if you live in a state that allows the unwashed to own machine guns, you do get an FBI background check before you get the permit.

[Scott O]

Psul - "It's stupid that you can legally buy two AR 15's and hundreds of rounds of ammunition at the age of 18 and at the same time can't buy a beer."
So Punchy thinks the kid shoulda been able to pick up a case of beer on the way home from the gun store?

[Paul Emery]

So Scott if you are old enough and mature enough to buy two AR-15's and hundreds of rounds of ammo why aren't you old and mature enough to buy a few beers? Any ideas you might have would be appreciated.

[Bill Tozer]

Highway funds, Punchy. Highway funds. Been that way since Jimmy Carter was President. Before that, a man could legally drive with an open container between his legs from Wa State to the Great State of Texas. Back then, the drinking age was 19 in Idaho so a lot of trips to Stateline to the Buy & Bye. Idaho also had Coors, which paid for the trip cause Washington State banned it. 3.2 beer only. Anyway, Carter ruint a good thing, drive 55 and no beer for you until you are 21. Hawaii was 18 to purchase the adult beverages. Darn Carter.

Highway funds. In CA, a person cannot buy a cigar under 21 years old, but that kid can die for our country overseas. I believe the CA Supreme Court (or maybe SOTUS) declared CA’s law to require one to be 21 to buy a rifle was declared unconstitutional. End of story.
—————-
PS: I resent people comparing Biden to Jimmy Carter. Carter made a mess of every problem. Mishandled every major problem of significance. Biden, on the other hand, has created every problem, every mess.

[Gregory]

Punchy 512p

Where is beer listed in the Bill of Rights?

[scenes]

If an 18 year old can't buy a rifle, you have to wonder about the 26th Amendment.

[scenes]

"Where is beer listed in the Bill of Rights? "

Right after the free education and free healthcare part.

[Scott O]

Paul 5:12 - "...why aren't you old and mature enough to buy a few beers?"
Because too many 18 year olds would buy more than a few beers. And then drive.
18 year olds buy firearms every day. You might notice the overwhelming majority (like 99.9999999%) don't go out and murder people. And kids of any age have no trouble buying a firearm to murder people if that's what's on their mind.
The problem here we are dealing with is that our society is cranking out an increasing number of messed up teens and young men. They are bitter, alienated and seem to have no self control. They will obtain weapons or destructive materials or vehicles and kill lots of people unless we identify and stop them. And do this without turning into a police state or infringing on our Constitutional rights. Bickering over the age of legal ownership of a firearm vs that of buying booze gets us nowhere.

[psfish]

Where is beer listed in the Bill of Rights?

I haven’t found it in there either but if you can locate it I will surely be in your debt sir.

[Gregory]

"Bickering over the age of legal ownership of a firearm vs that of buying booze gets us nowhere."

Especially since there are your choice of 50 states, DC Puerto Rico, Guam and the US Virgin Islands and perhaps another territory or two. Vive l'differance!

They ain't all texas.

[Steven Frisch]

There is something inherently inconsistent about complaining that school teachers can't be trusted because they are indoctrinating children with critical race theory and advocating that they be armed to protect from mass shootings at the same time.

Which is it, trusted protectors of children, or viscous tools of left wing propaganda?

I have a solution, lets have armed school teachers attend school board meetings where they are debating critical race theory :)

[Gregory]

The Truckee six figure 501c3 CEO stops by to make a joke out of the recent shooting.

Vicious or viscous, Steve?

[Gregory]

"I have a solution, lets have armed school teachers attend school board meetings where they are debating critical race theory :)"

That was written by the President of the so-called Sierra Business Council, which isn't a council of businesses.

[George Rebane]

SteveF 759am - I trust your claim of 'inherent inconsistency' is not a mental deficiency, but just a set up for your punchline. What teachers teach in the classroom and what they may tactically do to protect the safety of their students are independent behaviors. Most people would have no trouble sorting that out.

[Bill Tozer]

My theme which I will hit on again.

‘School Shootings Aren’t Caused By Faulty Gun Laws But By The Collapse Of The Family’

“But whether he meant to or not, Abbott’s comments approached the heart of the matter. Indeed, he could have made an even more expansive claim. Texas has been awash in firearms of all kinds for two centuries, ever since the first American empresarios began arriving in Texas at the invitation of the newly formed Mexican Republic. For the past 60 years or so, there have been no major technological advances in firearm lethality. So why is it that only now, over the past two decades, do we see the kind of mass shootings we saw this week in Texas?”……

“Politicians and pundits don’t want to talk about these things partly because there’s no law we can pass to fix it. It’s not a problem with an obvious solution. But they need to start talking all the same. We need to confront, collectively, the social maladies that create young men who murder indiscriminately, and chief among these maladies is the collapse of family and community.”

https://thefederalist.com/2022/05/27/school-shootings-arent-caused-by-faulty-gun-laws-but-by-the-collapse-of-the-family/

[scenes]

S. Frisch sez: "Which is it, trusted protectors of children, or viscous tools of left wing propaganda?"

I think that's a fair statement, although it's not meant as a constructive point.

Naturally, teachergroomers make piss-poor protectors of children, whether it's their minds or bodies.

So where do you go from there? Home schooling? Nuns with rulers? A complete re-do of public schools?

The thing is that the 'viscous (vicious?) tools' not only poison children but they create children who come back and kill children. It's a feedback loop that needs interruption.

Mass school killings, unlike urban gang shootings (mostly a product of a black underclass), are a massive tell of a failed modern culture that the Left has shoved down everyone's throat. Their assumption is that they can cure it by doing more of the same. It'll take decades for the crazy to fade away, so the best a sane person can do is segregate themselves.

[Gregory]

GR 843a

Of course, the punchline Steve was setting up was making light of threatening parents with being shot at school board meetings for opposing his (and the teacher's unions) Leftist point of view.

Very funny, Steve.

[Gregory]

scenes 919a

The murderous "black underclass" like the latino underclass and the emerging white underclass largely consists of aimless young men whose fathers were mostly absent from their lives.

[Gregory]

me 949p

I sincerely apologize to people fond of American Samoa and the Mariana Islands.

[psfish]

Posted by: Gregory | 27 May 2022 at 08:27 AM

The Truckee six figure 501c3 CEO stops by to make a joke out of the recent shooting.

I’m sure it has been agonizing for him having to wait a few days until the details were out to thus avoid repeats of previous incidents where upon climbing to the top of the pile in preparation to pontificate embarrassment followed when the shooter turned out to be the wrong color or hold political views uncomfortably close to his own.

[Scott O]

Steven F 7:59 - "I have a solution, lets have armed school teachers attend school board meetings where they are debating critical race theory :)"

Sounds good. Since the backers of CRT have no sound or valid arguments, shooting the parents dead would be their only avenue of persuasion. And it would expose the lefties for what they really are.

[Steven Frisch]

It's actually a very constructive point.

It's clear many posters here do not trust teachers to teach but they trust them to be warriors, protecters and armed agents.

I know that of course you don't see the inconsistency in this world view but I assure you, thinking and rational people do.

[George Rebane]

LE response time - it's heartening to see that the Uvalde parents were finally able to start the national discussion about the realities that characterize the actual LE response time as described in my commentary. This morning it was revealing to see senior LE officers attempt to explain away the one-hour ten-minute delay in confronting the killer. As with all self-serving bureaucracies, there was little shame apparent when the bureaucrats circled the wagons.

[Gregory]

"I know that of course you don't see the inconsistency in this world view but I assure you, thinking and rational people do."

No Steve, everyone can see the difference between methodically murdering students in cold blood, and teaching a bad curriculum to bad ends against the will of parents.

[Scott O]

Steven F 11:20 - "I know that of course you don't see the inconsistency in this world view but I assure you, thinking and rational people do."
Of course 'thinking and rational' people would be able to explain their view, but we see that Frisch does not. He simply trots out a grade-school level passive-aggressive insult.
You could, of course, try the patented Punchy argument: "it's obvious..."

[scenes]

" It's clear many posters here do not trust teachers to teach but they trust them to be warriors, protecters (protectors?) and armed agents. "

Why would I trust them to do any of these things?

They are drawn from a completely different population than those I had myself some time ago.

'Teacher', 'Warrior','Protector', 'Armed Agent' lol

https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1528907712007790592

[Gregory]

Checking, the wretchedly misnamed Sierra Business Council is down to 14 white women (well, one is white-adjacent) and one white guy, besides Steve.

How do you keep your leftist cred, Steve?

[scenes]

"they trust them to be warriors, protecters (protectors?) and armed agents. "

https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1530241586646331392

To be fair, we really should find jobs for mentally ill people. It's a problem worth thinking about.

[scenes]

Gregory@12:27PM

I just think of Steve F. as a genius. There's a huge opportunity out there for the 'Sierra Equity Council' and another genius is going to grab it.

re: Mentally ill kids and shootings and the mentally ill teachers that help produce mentally ill kids, even parts of the Twitter hivemind are on it.

https://twitter.com/Mast3rmo/status/1529487203612631043

[Don Bessee]

Then there is another area we need to protect them from woke medicine -

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2022/05/27/doctor-loses-licence-after-prescribing-transgender-9-year-old-puberty-blockers-during-ten-minute-skype-call/

;-)

[scenes]

"I know that of course you don't see the inconsistency in this world view but I assure you, thinking and rational people do"

'Thinking and rational' being shorthand for 'people who agree with me' naturally.

Just kicking in one more micro-thought on the matter, it's funny how that tendency in argument rhymes with Psul's 'gotcha' moments.

I think that the canonical version goes like so:

IF YOU ARE PRO-LIFE, WHY ARE YOU FOR CAPITAL PUNISHMENT??!!
CHECKMATE, BIGOT!!!

It's the kind of thing that got tiresome in the junior high lunchroom many moons ago and didn't age well since. There's always That Guy who comes up with these highly original observations. Of course, they usually ate glue in their private time.

[Gregory]

"The alternative to concealed-carry teachers in the classroom is a cadre of volunteer CCW holders who would also receive the required additional training."

No!

There is a world of difference between a person who is competent in self defense in their own world to being transplanted into K-12 and being able to grok who belongs and who doesn't and what is the appropriate behavior for them as the odd person out with a gun.

How about this as an alternative: every K-12 school has no more than 40% of the certificated staff being female, and all staff are allowed (but not required) to keep and carry a weapon.

This was one school out of what, 130,000? Let's not create more problems than we have already.

[psfish]

Posted by: scenes | 27 May 2022 at 12:44 PM

I just think of Steve F. as a genius. There's a huge opportunity out there for the 'Sierra Equity Council' and another genius is going to grab it.

Probably going to need to be that other genius. Not the best optics with The “Master Race All Stars” over at the SBC. Maybe an Affirmative Action “President” fronting and he could pull it off though!

Let’s see if it’s Brass Ring time….

[George Rebane]

Gregory 241pm - Wow! are we ever on opposite sides of that concept. You are picking a non-existent nit. In my scenario the CCW holder can be equally trained to provide classroom security more reliably than can a fledgling non-CCW teacher starting from scratch. The standing operating order for a classroom CCW security volunteer is absolutely no different than it is for him when carrying in public. You are allowed to use deadly force only AFTER you reasonably determine that murder and/or mayhem has started or is in the offing.

And 'grokking' who belongs in a classroom and who doesn't is a non-starter. Shooters are real easy to tell when they enter a classroom - furtive and brandishing. Bottom line, the volunteer can tell as easily from the back of room as can the teacher who addresses the entrant from the front of the room. Apparently some concerned citizens would rather classrooms go without any security than have trained volunteers fill in - an attitude beyond my ken.

Right now we have a killer-friendly system in place in our schools guaranteed to support massacres. Are you among those who demand some 100% reliable system before doing something as obvious as what I have described? Is 'perfect' the enemy of 'good' in your world?

But then again, I may not have described my solution well enough for you to understand. Mea culpa.

[Gregory]

No George, I understand your proposal very well. Your volunteer CCW geezer corps will be a non-starter.

You assume current k-12 staff are firearm naive. Most are, but by allowing them in a must issue sense to bring their arms with them, they take away the gun free zone freedom from the would be shooter.

[Paul Emery]

George

Why would requiring registration and training in basic gun safety as a requirement for ownership be a violation of the 2nd amendment in your view? It doesn't violate the right to bear arms. Anybody can own a gun they would just have to go through that process. Much like a drivers license .

[Barry Pruett]

When Cain killed Abel with a rock, the Lord did not get rid of all the rocks. The Lord rightfully blamed Cain and not the tool with which Cain killed his brother. The point being that we don't have a gun problem in the USA, we have a sin problem.

[fish]

Posted by: Psul Emery | 27 May 2022 at 03:53 PM

You are at your most entertaining when you think you’ve stumbled onto a bold new argument.

[Gregory]

Basic Gun Safety:
1) don't play with guns
2) don't point a gun at anything you don't want shot
3) don't have your finger near the trigger until you are ready to fire

What else you want covered, punchy?

[Paul Emery]

Barry

I'm asking you as to how the Constitution forbids screening, training and registration in order to own firearms. It's not forbidden in the Constitution which says simply " "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."

It does not forbid training and registration since anyone who takes those trainings would be eligible.

[Gregory]

"Much like a drivers license"

Driving on public roads is a privilege, not a right.

Owning and carrying guns are rights.

Punchy, you are describing an infringement of a constitutional right.

How about this one... no freedom of speech or a right to assemble without a speech safety class and certificate?

[Scott O]

Complete Idiot 3:53 - "Why would requiring registration and training in basic gun safety as a requirement for ownership..."
So - you want to make sure a wacko intent on killing people has BETTER aim?
Or maybe Punchy thinks if mass killers would only take safety training, they'd think: "golly, we're not supposed to kill people?"
Paul - read reality at 4:58.
I've said for years that gun safety instructions would fit on a pack of matches.
And, moron - the NRA is the leading single national source for gun safety and the Dems and the Left want them shut down.
But thanks for showing up here to show us you just shit your own britches.

[Paul Emery]

Gregory

Yes, we have the right to own as gun. But does that include everybody even those that are mentally not firm? How else can you determine that other than through training, background checks and registration?

Your reference to freedom of speech is very week Gregory.

[Scott O]

How about - no one gets to vote until they demonstrate basic literacy and is even vaguely aware of our form of governance?
Deal?

[Paul Emery]

sp

"very weak Gregory"

[Scott O]

Ha ha - "How else can you determine that other than through training, background checks and registration?"
Why - you just ask them on the federal form. Next to where you ask them if they're a drug addict.
Who would lie about that?

[Scott O]

I take it Paul thinks that people need to prove fitness to the govt before the govt will allow them to exercise their Constitutional rights.
Sucks to be a fetus. They got no chance in hell.

[Paul Emery]

Off to a gig

More later

[Gregory]

The US Marine Corps turned Lee Harvey Oswald into a highly skilled marksman able to kill a guy in a moving car with an Italian bolt action rifle purchased for $30. Outstanding!

[scenes]

Psul Emery: " But does that include everybody even those that are mentally not firm?"

That strikes me as a good question.

The more general form is whether insane people have the full rights of adults.

Should a crazy person be able to vote? drive a car? the freedom to excrete in doorways like a couple of the local homeless? buy alcohol?

Maybe the right thing to do is to restrict those things. It sure is tricky to determine reasonable set of tests though...plus I'm not sure how the Constitution deals with the insane.

I will stick with the concept that anyone not old enough to buy/own a gun is not old enough to vote.

[scenes]

Psul Emery: " How else can you determine that other than through training, "

That strikes me as a bad question.

What possible difference does training make to a mass shooter, or even your average criminal.

I suppose it improves their ability to use a weapon, so there is that. Wasting rounds is to be avoided.

[scenes]

whoof. Just spent 20 minutes looking through the various states' rules on voting by the mentally ill, court cases, how it's handled in other countries.

What a morass, like any of these corner cases. I'm not equipped to argue one way or the other.

[Scott O]

Once again we see the basic failure to understand the problem.
The problem is folks whose brains don't operate within an acceptable parameter of social politeness.
I.E. - they're F'n nuts and angry.
Since we desire to have a free and open type of society, how do we identify and stop these poor bastards before they harm anyone and not sacrifice our own rights and freedoms?
I seem to recall some trouble with a few amateur pilots and a lot of major destruction and death.
No firearms involved.
Then there was that issue with a rental truck and some sort of building collapse.
No firearms involved.
But Paul (along with millions of other fools) focus on the tool of destruction de jour and run with that due to that particular tool's affiliation with people he doesn't like.
Paul has allowed emotions to overwhelm what feeble thinking power he possesses and dreams up scenarios that erase actual reality in order to feel he has the answer to our problems.
How did the nutter obtain a firearm to kill all those kids in Sandy Hook?
How would Paul's little scheme have prevented that?
Paul doesn't know and doesn't care.
The answer has to be something that annoys or pisses off the people he doesn't like. It may not solve the problem, but that really isn't the point, is it?

[Scott O]

scenes 6:15 - This is the crux of the issue. No one wants to allow violent nut cases to roam freely among us and as soon as we look at an actual try at preventing that we very quickly come to the conclusion that giving the govt the power to really make sure that doesn't happen, we realize that is not a power we want ANY govt to have.
If you think the govt needs to get rid of the witches consider that you might get fingered as a witch.
And it's up to you to prove you aren't a witch.

[George Rebane]

PaulE 353pm - "Why would requiring registration and training in basic gun safety as a requirement for ownership be a violation of the 2nd amendment in your view? It doesn't violate the right to bear arms."

Who in hell said anything remotely like that??! Paul, every once in a while you give 'off the wall remark' a totally new meaning. Were you really meaning to relate to anything that I said?

Gregory 342pm – I said nothing to restrict security volunteers to be members of your pejorative ‘CCW geezer corps’. But now that you bring it up, it is clear that 1) you don’t have a clue as to the cross-section of people who make up our CCW population, 2) are equally deprived of how members of the geezer corps (anybody over 60?) shoot and train, and 3) apparently don’t understand my specification that they are required to pass the same TBD qualifications as every other person, including teachers, who qualifies and is prepared to provide armed classroom security.

For classrooms with unarmed teachers, I would bet a heap of cash that the more mature security volunteers, those who pass all the other requirements, would make the most reliably performing (and available) cadre that could be assigned to classroom security.

[Don Bessee]

Now that they had time to review video i spent a little time reading the details. There was a string of one-off things that facilitated the massacre.

A teacher propped an exterior door open for some reason, heat perhaps?

The school had hardened doors.

Then the shooter walked quite a ways into the school to the classroom of the dead.

There had been an end of year awards assembly and kids were just getting back to the classes and that's why the hardened classroom doors were open when policy was classroom doors to be closed and locked at all times.

When he went in he closed and locked the doors fortifying himself in and barricading the doors. The cops knew their small arms would not penetrate the doors.

The first on scene had nothing to breach the doors and had to wait for keys to engage and kill the shooter.

As seen in airplane crashes it is often a string of individual events that lead to doom. In this case the shooter had the benefit of a stupid teacher leaving an exterior door propped open then the assembly and finally the shooter benefiting from the hardened classroom.

I wont get into how many dem shitholes droop more bodies on a weekend night.

;-(

[Bill Tozer]

Punchy is punching…..the dope on the ropes. His strategy is just to wear you out.

No offense Dr Rebane, but that last Townhall meeting aired by our local alternative underground FM station was a complete waste of time. The moderator of the TownHall in the Art Deco City Hall was the former public pretender….er….former public defender now a judge who declared no talking about the 2nd Amendment! You are going to have a Townhall meeting of the minds about school shooters and you are not allowed to bring up the 2nd Amendment!! Insert big rolling of eyes here.

That last waste of time Townhall on guns was sparked by people like Psul E. Eeeeeemery who were moved, very moved I say, by little piglet David Hogg. Listen to the children. It’s really moving and it made be have a nice smooth consistent movement.

Strike that about a total waste of time.
I did learn one thing from the hastily thrown together public panic over guns. That is, THOSE early birds who applied for permit to smoke Medical Marijuana before it became recreational do not qualify to buy a gun in CA. Nope, your got a script from a licensed medical doctor for MMJ because you have mental problems, lol. Script is your own proof that you are crazy or at least have mental problems. Sucks to be them……Surprise, surprise, surprise. :). Honesty is the best policy.

PS: Judge Anderson, how you doing, Your Honorable Discharge?

[Don Bessee]

Now you know what kind of idiot's support robert francis -

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/05/27/watch-white-beto-orourke-supporter-calls-black-cop-fcking-disgusting-pig-at-anti-nra-protest/

;-)

[scenes]

"THOSE early birds who applied for permit to smoke Medical Marijuana before it became recreational do not qualify to buy a gun in CA."

Interesting idea.

That pesky 2nd Amendment aside, it would be fun to feed in all the confidential Big Data to an AI and see who was most likely to not get the gun license. Maybe you could do the same thing and perform preemptive arrests.

re: Geezer Patrol

While I can't imagine they could handle a low-income urban classroom, just due to the constant uproar, the main problem I see is one of liability. In the post-Floyd environment, a single mistake in a fluid situation puts you in the poorhouse or the hoosegow. If I were providing security, I'd sure want ironclad guarantees.

re: locked doors

It's hard to avoid the fact that forts often work both ways.

[scenes]

Scotto: "And it's up to you to prove you aren't a witch."

Easy peasy.

Witches float.

[Gregory]

scenes 758p

So do very small rocks.

With about 130,000 elementary schools and say 8 classrooms per small elementary school, that's a million classrooms of which 1 gets hit every few years.

A lot of waiting around. It'd be a lot easier just to let teachers and required staff to take up the slack. But a "must issue", not a consensus.

The Geezer Brigades are best used elsewhere.

[Gregory]

Punch 515p

"But does that include everybody even those that are mentally not firm?"

Yes, folks like you with mental infirmities can buy a firearm if there isn't gov'mint paperwork filed. If you're concerned about the public safety, you can commit yourself to be sure.

[Bill Tozer]

Texas protects its grammar schools differently than it’s high schools. A small grade school is where you can really lock it down and get by with one in-and-out entrance, while the high schools it’s not possible to have one entrance. So, screening and more protective measures are needed. The door ajar…. The school also had invested in a system to track the social media comments by the school kids. Opps. Failed to pick it up. To be fair, he posted his intentions for the first time six hours before he went Psycho Killer to a girl on-line in Germany.

Let’s cut to chase. The left has a 2nd Amendment problem. That’s the bottom line. There are ways to amend the Constitution but Biden’s big victory left them with a split Senate and a handful majority in the house. What did they think they would do with that hand?

When the Leftists took over the Virginia State Houses, the first thing they did was crafted the most extreme gun legislation before they were even sworn in. What, was it three days or a week after Election Day. Busy writing the law and bragging about it.

Then came Youngkin and the flashpoint Virginia School Boards and…and….and…don’t hear much about Virginia’s new gun confiscation plans, now do we?

The Left has a 2nd Amendment problem. And they don’t like rodeos either.

[George Rebane]

Yeah, there are lot of considerations (legal, insurance, etc) to sort out before teachers or security volunteers will bring guns to classrooms. But none of it is undoable per se; however, the politics might well be.

One more time. Most security matters inherently involve lot of waiting around. But there is always the benefit of prevention when the bad guys know that people with guns are waiting around for them. And re 'taking up the slack', which appears to be confusing. Here I've been talking about the slack that occurs when there are not enough willing teachers/staff, it's only then that security volunteers would be used, and only a fraction of them would likely be members of the Geezer Brigade.

[Gregory]

George, in ~30% of Tejas schools, teachers and staff can already Cc legally.

Put up a sign: staff may be carrying their own hand cannons OR Gun Free Zone.

This was a collegiate example, but I recall subsequent to the massacre at Virginia Tech, a controversy at the University of Utah was whether a freshman could demand to be assigned a roommate who wouldn't keep a gun in their room.

I'm not surprised there ain't been no shootin' at UU.

[Bill Tozer]

‘Man Fires Multiple Shots At Party. Woman Yanks Out Gun, Shoots Him To Death.
Miraculously, no one was injured as the woman saved everyone’

“She did the right thing.”

https://www.dailywire.com/news/man-fires-multiple-shots-at-graduation-party-in-park-woman-yanks-out-gun-shoots-him-to-death

[Barry Pruett]

Paul. I think you missed my point. Our cultural that dehumanizes is the root problem. Abandon modern culture and some nearly all of our problems.

[Barry Pruett]

Solve nearly all of our problems.

[Bill Tozer]

Since we are circling the barn again, flashback feel good story.

‘Columnist fails gun check, blames store owners’

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/columnist-fails-gun-check-blames-store-owners

[scenes]

"...
The “teaching” that supposedly goes on in schools is a broken remnant of preparation for an economy that no longer exists. We’re no longer a society of people who do things, but rather a society of people to whom things are done, many of them harmful, humiliating, and arbitrary. America’s demoralized teaching corps is so unhinged by their own anomie that they resort to imposing sadistic fantasies on the children in their charge.

Thus, all the inappropriate curricula around adult preoccupations with sex, such as the Drag Queen Story Hour, for which mentally ill men are invited to act-out impersonations of women-as-monsters for young people who can’t possibly be expected to make sense of the spectacle. (I suspect that even six-year-olds, hard-wired to function as successful animals in this world, understand it as some kind of affront to reality.) Otherwise, American teachers are out of ideas, and are themselves damaged by the same forces in culture that they are now asked to direct...."

https://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/childhoods-end/

[scenes]

A comment from, well, the comments section, in the Kunstler column. Pretty insightful:

"One of the worst features of the public schools is herding hundreds or even thousands of kids into one place. Another is segregating them by age. As a result, they virtually have no adult influence, since the adults in schools act primarily as police, with no personal relationship with the kids. So the kids bond entirely with each other and get their worldview and values from each other: the immature leading the immature. "

If that's so, how do you redesign education? The modern mass production of how children are taught is a fairly new procedure and not written in stone.

[Gregory]

George, this is what you are up against:

​​"The powerful gun lobby and their allies did not waste a second after the horrific killing of 19 students and two teachers at Robb Elementary School to call for arming teachers. Bringing more guns into schools makes schools more dangerous and does nothing to shield our students and educators from gun violence. We need fewer guns in schools, not more. Teachers should be teaching, not acting as armed security guards."

National Education Association President Becky Pringle on proposals to arm teachers.

Back to your small slanders at 640p:
", it is clear that 1) you don’t have a clue as to the cross-section of people who make up our CCW population,"

Oh, but I do, George. But only the retired are likely to be eager volunteers, to be useful a'gin.

" 2) are equally deprived of how members of the geezer corps (anybody over 60?) shoot and train,"

Anyone with a Mediscare card would qualify as a geezer in my book... t-t-talkin' bout my g-g-generation. And how they train to shoot is the least of the issues.

"and 3) apparently don’t understand my specification that they are required to pass the same TBD qualifications as every other person, including teachers, who qualifies and is prepared to provide armed classroom security"

You apparently don't understand the issues arrayed against the proposal to being with. Teachers and staff have a function at the schools already... you don't, and neither do I. Teachers and staff will push back and hard at any requirement for them to carry a gun, and any requirement to allow a certified Armed Geezer(tm) into their classrooms.

Pouring a million armed CCW old farts into classrooms has its own hazards even if they were seen to be selfless saviors, which would be a non starter at the NEA,

[George Rebane]

Gregory 721am - Nowhere have I claimed that arming teachers or augmenting them with security volunteers would be easy or even politically possible. I fully understand "the issues arrayed" against the above proposals that I have posited as solutions, which I firmly believe would work were they to be implemented. (Thankfully, I'm not as dumb as I look.)

Re my "small slanders" - "how they train and shoot" is central to the entire concept of security volunteers that will fill the gaps of un-armable teachers and staffs. And you may be right about the possible preponderance of the retired as volunteers. But so what if they qualify.

What good-intentioned people like you don't seem to get is that we're talking about a trade-off of children's lives saved by 1) doing nothing while criticizing imperfect solutions, 2) implementing proposals I and others have suggested, or 3) continuing to clutch our worry beads while hoping that someone else will some day come up with the perfect solution accepted by all. Under which scenario would we minimize mass murders in schools over a time horizon of, say, the next ten years? Unless you can show that #2 above will increase the number of classroom deaths (we can develop the current death rate from data), you have become part of the ongoing problem.

[Gregory]

"Unless you can show that #2 above will increase the number of classroom deaths (we can develop the current death rate from data), you have become part of the ongoing problem."

That's punchy logic, George.

Assuming a million classrooms, a four year cycle of occurrences and a 150 day school year... do you really think your geezers are up to spending 600 million volunteer days between having something to do?

Madness.

[Gregory]

More Geritol for thought:

There Have Been 13 Mass School Shootings Since 1966, Not 27 This Year... Don't conflate mass shootings with school shootings.

https://reason.com/2022/05/26/uvalde-texas-mass-shooting-statistics-gun-crimes-misleading/

[George Rebane]

Gregory 1036am - Marvelous! we may be getting somewhere. How is #2 "punchy logic"??

And just as I thought, you really have not understood my proposal for security volunteers taking up the slack in schools with insufficient teachers/staff who can/will carry arms. You continue to assert that all classrooms will at all times be manned only by security volunteers.

BTW, I'm not sure about your mathematical reasoning. What does evoking a "four year cycle of occurrences" have to do with steady state security staff loading?

[Gregory]

You are blinded by your Bright Shiny Object du jour, George.

Madness.

But it is closer to every two years for a "mass shooting" at a school, so that's only 300 million days for the volunteers to sit with nothing to do.

[George Rebane]

Gregory 1135am - Well, we tried. I think the conversation is over. Thanks for the effort.

[Gregory]

George, thanks for pretending to have a conversation.

Perhaps you'll take a swag at the number of schools in the US, the classrooms per school, how often a mass shooting happens nationwide and therefore the amount of time the unpaid labor spends twiddling their thumbs waiting for something to shoot to walk in the door.

If the volunteers are old, they'd likely be the first taken out , thus lessening the burden on the future income of the kiddies left living.

[Randy]

Interesting article on Yahoo News of all places regarding an interview by Politico (of all places) https://www.yahoo.com/news/really-consistent-pathway-society-stop-185445896.html

A fairly long read with some of the common anti gun tropes but the things I found poignant include "There’s this really consistent pathway. Early childhood trauma seems to be the foundation, whether violence in the home, sexual assault, parental suicides, extreme bullying. Then you see the build toward hopelessness, despair, isolation, self-loathing, oftentimes rejection from peers. That turns into a really identifiable crisis point where they’re acting differently. Sometimes they have previous suicide attempts.

What’s different from traditional suicide is that the self-hate turns against a group. They start asking themselves, “Whose fault is this?” Is it a racial group or women or a religious group, or is it my classmates? The hate turns outward. There’s also this quest for fame and notoriety."

And "...we really need resources at institutions like schools. We need to build teams to investigate when kids are in crisis and then link those kids to mental health services. The problem is that in a lot of places, those services are not there. There’s no community mental health and no school-based mental health."

But of course in the Left's view it's the guns dummy, they have a way of making people do things...

[Don Bessee]

How is suddenly we have to protect the kids from the teachers? -

A North Carolina preschool used flash cards featuring LGBTQ themes to teach kids colors, including one card depicting a pregnant man.

The principal was able to locate the cards in the preschool classroom and verify with the teacher that they had been used

The principal took possession of the cards and alerted the district superintendent and human resources about the incident, which she said she was unaware of until being alerted to the situation by Paré.

The incident comes amid an effort in the North Carolina General Assembly to pass legislation aimed at giving parents more control over what their children are taught in school, including giving them the option to opt out of what they consider "age-inappropriate classroom materials."

https://www.foxnews.com/us/north-carolina-preschool-pregnant-man

;-)

[Gregory]

"A reader objected to the idea on several counts, most of which were the result of misunderstandings"

None of my points were based on misunderstandings, George.

And let me add another issue... there is no way that old gun enthusiasts will be allowed into the classrooms led by young progressive teachers to observe their lessons.

There is no way classrooms will be watched over by volunteer armed guards. Ever.

[George Rebane]

Gregory 202pm - your misunderstandings aside, I never claimed that implementing my solution would be either easy or even possible. And ref my 321pm, 1124am, 1021am, and 920pm for a record of your having missed salient points of my proposal.

[Gregory]

Your 321pm, 1124am, 1021am, and 920pm were all made in error.

[George Rebane]

Gregory 442pm - I guess that establishes that you and I live in and experience very different worlds. Good to know.

[Gregory]

George, that's just your feigned superiority showing through.

[Don Bessee]

Defund the cops is working so well -

https://www.foxnews.com/us/nyc-crime-man-randomly-stabbed

;-)