Enduring Impact of Imported Cultures

George Rebane

As we anticipate the horrendous impact of abandoning Title 42 for managing the current tsunami of illegal aliens crossing our southern border, George Mason University economics professor Garett Jones comes out with The Culture Transplant (2022), a major essay on the enduring impact of cultures brought in by America’s immigrants.  In the book review (here) we read –

… cultural traits can persist for generations after migrants arrive in a new country. Newcomers don’t simply assimilate to their new homes; as the book’s subtitle puts it, they “make the economies they move to a lot like the ones they left.” It’s a thesis that is at once highly provocative and a restatement of common sense: Poorly chosen immigrants can undermine a country’s success; cultures don’t disappear when people move from place to place.

A point long made in these pages, the presentation of this research underlines the damage, not only possible, but to be anticipated from the hordes of millions of illegals that have been released with no effective controls into all corners of our land.  More ominously –

… even after four generations in the U.S., immigrants continue to hold attitudes toward trust that are significantly influenced by their home countries. On a host of other matters, such as family, abortion and the role of government, fourth-generation immigrants on average converge only about 60% of the way to the national norm. “Overall,” Mr. Jones contends, “that low level of conformity is a bad sign, unless you think most immigrants come from countries with better political attitudes than Americans currently have.”

The bottom line is that immigrants from bad and backward countries don’t leave their cultures behind.  They continue to embrace and practice them here, especially when they gather in ethnically homogenous enclaves.  The resulting disunity impedes the falsely touted assimilation, and gives lie to the progressives’ chant that ‘Our diversity is our strength.’  In this shibboleth Jones writes “you’re hearing the cultural equivalent of second marriages: a triumph of hope over experience.”  As demonstrated over the centuries, first and foremost, people like to live with their own kind, no matter where they locate.

In this work Prof Jones has introduced a migration-adjusted SAT (state, agriculture, technology) score which usefully predicts the assimilation attributes of our immigrant ethnicities – e.g. predicts more than 60% of modern day income differences between the groups as derived from their countries of origin.  It turns out that the technology component of SAT is the most impactive.  Correlating with their home countries -

Technology also seems to be the best long-run predictor of government quality. So the main story seems to be about technological development persisting over time, and of people bringing their technological capabilities to new places. 

Continuing to allow uncontrolled entry of millions of illegals portends a cultural and existential disaster for America – “These concerns are immediate and tangible, not preoccupied with the effect of immigration generations from now. To address some of the more compelling worries, we might start placing greater emphasis on skills, perhaps implementing a points system, as Australia, Canada and the U.K. do, to grade potential immigrants.”

But first and foremost, to implement any of these factors into an immigration policy that sustains America, we have to secure our borders.  This is also understood by our neo-Marxist and anti-American elites who will fight tooth and nail to maintain our borders in their current dysfunctional state that promotes, nay invites, the uncontrolled invasion by millions of illegals who will implant their own counter-cultures in this fair land.

Comments

[Paul Emery]

So George what happened to Trumps promise that he would build a wall and Mexico was going to pay for it? Was that a lie, incompetence or wishful thinking?

[George Rebane]

PaulE 1153am - Opposed by anti-American Democrat Marxists.

[Don Bessee]

Another magnet for illegals -

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/hhs-approves-washington-state-request-offer-health-insurance-illegal-immigrants-citing-health-equity

;-)

[Paul Emery]

George

Thats no excuse. Trump controlled the Senate and House in his first two years and still couldn't get the job done. Add to that his broken promise to get us out of Afghanistan among other things. What happened there?

[The Estonian Fox]

George @ 12:23PM-

I believe that's the 3rd or 4th time that you have told Mr. Emery that the liberals prevented funding for the entire wall. Although in the first 2 years of Trump's presidency, the anti-Trump Republicans surely didn't support him.

Can you hire Parag Agrawal to censor, or shadow-ban, relentlessly asked questions? I hear he's out of work now.

Where do we go when the America of our Founders is interred? Will there even be a funeral service? If so, will it be in English?

[Gregory]

"So George what happened to Trumps promise that he would build a wall and Mexico was going to pay for it? Was that a lie, incompetence or wishful thinking?"

It was incompetence on the part of Listeners who interpreted it as Mexico would write us a check.

Listeners like you, Punch.

[Bill Tozer]

Punchy would have thrown a fit if Trump did complete the wall.
“What about the poor unskilled uneducated illiterate in his native tongue illegal who is just trying to provide for a better life for his family?”

Everything Trump got accomplished was dismantled by the Dems immediately upon taking office. The 10,000 Mexican troops guarding our southern border with another 10,000 troops guarding their southern borders to break up caravans, , the very successful Remain in Mexico policy…all gone the day Joe Biden took office. Heck Punchy, we almost had a government shutdown over Trump trying to get the $ for the Wall. Not one Democrat voted for needed 18,000 Border Patrol agents funding. Not one. DNA testing gone. It’s all gone.

The Lefties throw everything at Trump to block the wall and every step was met with lawsuits coming out of the Yang Yang.

Punchy, you yourself and Roberta Cross and every single Lefty who ever commented here was 100% against the Wall, bar none. Heck, they had a fit…a conniption fit when Biden was going to do some repairs to the old falling down wall which has old metal panels scraped from old Vietnam Nam army equipment. Every step towards any type of Border security was meet with a fury and flurry of resistance.

The Dems want it exactly the way it is now. Flood the zone with illegals (not legals), chaos, defund and nueter border and law enforcement, defund ICE, total breakdown of law and order, breakdown/erasure of any semblance of order……

No Mexican troops busting up the caravans. Now we have Mexican police and the Mexican government driving buses full of illegals from around the globe to the border and dumping them off there to release the borders to run across the border and not at a legal point of entry.

So, here we are. There are no plans to finish the Wall. Biden paid contractors to sit and do nothing with funds Trump squeezed from the Dems to continue the Wall.

Joe Biden and every single person in his Democrat Administration are 100% dead set on border security. They want 100% amnesty for every single border jumper to is here illegally.

And what will this do to our country? Ann Coulter was right when she blew up at Trump. It’s goodbye America. Say goodbye. When the safety net is torn asunder, chaos will erupt in our streets, the place will be torched to the ground, and out of the ashes will arise the New America. Marx. Lenin. Cultural Revolution. No God, no churches, no dissent and and no prisoners.

But, I am more interested in the culture ramifications and the many many future no-go zones proliferating across the land. Our diversity is our strength, ROFLMAO.

Immigrants wave the American flag. Invaders wave their country’s flag. Now give me money to get an apartment, like now. Fuck you homeboys, it’s our neighborhood now.

[Bill Tozer]

‘A new way to measure the border crisis’. Bryon York

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/a-new-way-to-measure-the-border-crisis

Sending the illegals to the Whitest Island in America (Martha’s Vineyard) did not work out so well.

It’s a different Mexico than Trump dearth with. Now as the Cartels have taken huge swathes of Mexico and run the place, it’s only going to be more chaos and carnage.

[Bill Tozer]

E Pluribus Unum – Still? Really? (updated 2aug20)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXGxRKlA70A

It’s all part of the Great Reset.

[Beep Beep]

‘ICE Officers Told to Reduce Arrests in Anticipation of Border Surge’
Monday, Dec 12, 2022

If only Biden would just enforce the laws on the books. If only Creepy Joe would enforce the laws on the books and uphold his oath of office.

[Kendal Jonsey]

Massive Weekend Migrant Caravan Overwhelms Texas Border Town

Blake Barrow, the director of the Rescue Mission of El Paso, told the Times that his shelter was “bursting at the seams” and was mostly filled with migrants rather than U.S. citizens.

“The numbers are like nothing I’ve seen for the last 25 years,” he said. “Honestly, I don’t know how to address this problem. The situation is overwhelming us.”

Rosalio Sosa, who runs a network of shelters in the area, told the outlet that her facilities are struggling to keep up with the constant inflow of migrants. “The queue right now is endless,” he said.

An anonymous administration official implied the federal government is still attempting to tackle the “root” causes of illegal immigration in economically ravaged and politically tumultuous countries in Central America that are sparking the migrant upheaval. The Biden administration has not come up with a plan to fix the border catastrophe, he said.

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/massive-weekend-migrant-caravan-overwhelms-texas-border-town/?

It’s going exactly accordingly to plan. Fix it? Surely you jest. The border catastrophe is the plan as far as the eye can see, bigots.

[Bill Tozer]

‘The End Of Title 42 Caps The Worst Year For Illegal Immigration In U.S. History’

The Biden administration has no plan for what to do beginning next week when it loses the ability to quickly expel illegal immigrants.

https://thefederalist.com/2022/12/14/the-end-of-title-42-caps-the-worst-year-for-illegal-immigration-in-u-s-history/

There is plenty of room at the Rood Center

[Laptop Dancer]

Reality. What a concept.

‘Newsom: California is overwhelmed by immigrant crisis’

The federal government is sending more and more flights, and more and more buses directly here to California because this state is doing what no other state's doing," Newsom told ABC's Matt Guttman, "and that's absorbing and protecting and preserving our values and advancing them by doing health care screenings, and taking care of folks, and the more we do, the burden is placed disproportionate on us."

Newsom said the state is overwhelmed.

"We're already at capacity and nine of our sites," said Newsom. "We can't continue to fund all of these sites because of the budgetary pressures now being placed on this state and the offsetting issues that I have to address."
He said with Title 42 being lifted in one week, the state will not be able to handle the influx.
"The reality is, unless we're doing what we're doing, people will end up on the streets," said Newsom.
Newsom said this is an issue that needs to be addressed by Republicans and Democrats, but not like how Florida Governor Ron DeSantis is doing it by sending immigrants to Martha’s Vineyard.
"I mean, that's just comedy and tragedy," said Newsom.

He said the system is about to break in California.

"The fact is, what we've got right now is not working, and it's about to break in a post-42 world unless we take some responsibility and ownership," said Newsom. "I'm saying that as a Democrat. I'm not saying that to point fingers. I'm saying that as a father, I'm saying that as someone that feels responsible for being part of the solution, and I'm trying to do my best here."
———————-
‘Eric Adams seeks $1B from Biden as NYC migrant crush swells to 30K’

City Council Minority Leader Joe Borelli (R-Staten Island) said that lifting Title 42 would “put the Biden administration in a liberal conundrum.”

“Adams first floated the $1 billion price tag for providing shelter and other services when he declared a state of emergency over the city’s migrant crisis in October. The city’s estimated migrant population then was around 17,400.

As of Sunday, that number had ballooned to more than 30,300, with over 20,900 living in taxpayer-funded shelters, according to City Hall.”

“They will have no tools to enforce the border nor will they have political capital within their own party to change the policy,” he said.

“The feds will have even less ability to stop people at the border. They will make their way here.”

Staten Island Borough President Vito Fossella also said the end of Title 42 would be “not good for the city of New York.”

https://nypost.com/2022/12/14/eric-adams-seeks-1b-from-biden-as-nyc-migrant-crush-swells-to-30k/

[Don Bessee]

Adding insult to injury -

Biden administration considers extending asylum option to Cuba, Nicaragua and Haiti: Report
The Biden administration's plan could allow asylum seekers to apply from outside of the country and fly into the US

https://www.foxnews.com/us/biden-administration-considers-extending-asylum-option-cuba-nicaragua-and-haiti-report

;-)

[The Estonian Fox]

Let's use school absenteeism as an adjunct to culture:

For San Francisco USD, compare the 2021-22 school year to the '19-20 year, the chronic absentee rates are:
https://www.joannejacobs.com/post/no-shows

African American..('19-20)38% ('21-22)64%
Hispanic...24% 47%
White.......9% 20%
Asian........4% 9%

So the Wuhan virus shutdown roughly doubled the absentee rates over 2 years. Doesn't look too good for long term education success for certain groups.

[Paul Emery]

So George do you consider the European invaders who conquered the native peoples on this Continent to be an "imported Culture" ?

[psfish]

Posted by: Paul Emery | 15 December 2022 at 10:36 AM

You know what to do to atone for this....don't you Paul? C'mon man....do the right thing....if you follow me!

[fish]

Well of course he did......

'Some Sort Of Sex Slave'? Son Of Paul Pelosi's Attacker Breaks Silence, Fuels Speculation

"My father had progressive views..."

They always do!

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/some-sort-sex-slave-son-paul-pelosis-attacker-breaks-silence-fuels-speculation

[Gregory]

So Punchy, do you consider the warring tribes of folks who had walked here to have rights superior to the folks who sailed?

[Paul Emery]

Ever hear of Manifest Destiny Gregory? What does that mean to you and how does that "destiny" affect the cultures of people who were already here?

[Gregory]

What does Manifest Destiny mean to you besides a club to try to hit me with?

It was in my Jr. High American history books.

So, you admit there were "cultures" of people who had walked here before the Euro-trash sailed here. Why was there more than one, and why were they fighting each other?

[psfish]

Posted by: psul Emery | 15 December 2022 at 01:18 PM

Tell it to the Denisovans.....

[Paul Emery]

Here's a definition of Manifest Destiny Gregory

"Manifest Destiny, a phrase coined in 1845, is the idea that the United States is destined—by God, its advocates believed—to expand its dominion and spread democracy and capitalism across the entire North American continent."

Do you believe in that ?

[Gregory]

Why would I believe in a 19th century phrase, Punch. Do you?

[Gregory]

You're flailing, Punch.

[George Rebane]

re PaulE 1036am - This would be a very interesting discussion thread to pursue, but I'm afraid that Paul, with his notorious nose for liberal logic, will kill it in its infancy.

[Paul Emery]

George

Your disregard for a diversity of cultures perusing their traditions, religions and customs in this country is what troubles me considering the lack of regard that we had for the cultures and religions already inhabiting this land that we, as white European Christians, were willing to trample, kill and scatter while taking possession of their land and property in the name of Manifest Destiny.

[Gregory]

"So George do you consider the European invaders who conquered the native peoples on this Continent to be an "imported Culture" ?"

What about the "native peoples" (they also all came from somewhere else) who didn't fight the Eurotrash invaders? Were they "conquered"?

[Paul Emery]

George

My question is reasonable considering your concern that "Poorly chosen immigrants can undermine a country’s success; cultures don’t disappear when people move from place to place." Were we not "immigrats" when we arrived on this Continent?

[Gregory]

"Historians have emphasized that "manifest destiny" was always contested; many endorsed the idea, but the large majority of Whigs and many prominent Americans (such as Abraham Lincoln and Ulysses S. Grant) rejected the concept."

[Gregory]

"Historian Daniel Walker Howe writes, "American imperialism did not represent an American consensus; it provoked bitter dissent within the national polity while the Whigs saw America's moral mission as one of democratic example rather than conquest."

The Whigs were the good guys, Punch.

[Paul Emery]

sp Immigrants

So Gregory what justified the warfare we imposed on Native Americans who chose to resist our invading their lands and driving them out after destroying their means of survival-such as the Buffalo heards?

[Gregory]

The buffalo "heards"?

[Gregory]

"Historian Daniel Walker Howe writes, "American imperialism did not represent an American consensus; it provoked bitter dissent within the national polity while the Whigs saw America's moral mission as one of democratic example rather than conquest."

This time act as if you read it.

[Gregory]

Now, Punch, be a good chap and go away. Your simplistic thinking and simple minded jabs add nothing.

[Bill Tozer]

Bet the Native Americans wish they had a wall to protect them from the European invaders.

[Bill Tozer]

G @ 3:08 pm

Bison
———————-
DOJ Sues Arizona for Allegedly Violating Federal Law, Neglects to Mention Biden’s Gross Violations of Federal Law

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/doj-sues-arizona-for-allegedly-violating-federal-law-neglects-to-mention-bidens-gross-violations-of-federal-law/

[George Rebane]

PaulE, as usual, you are all over the place with your assertions, allegations, and questions. Can you focus a bit, and come up with a thesis about cultures that you are willing to state precisely and defend? Then let others take a crack at it.

For example, your 250pm indicates that you haven't understood a word of what I wrote in my commentary, especially the part that I "disregard cultures" - what!!?

[Bill Tozer]

Diversity can be our strength when all are committed/working together for a common goal.

For instance, the military. All military personnel from the top to bottom are committed to be the most lethal fighting force on Planet Earth. In times of war, that common goal is to bust up the enemy and defeat him. In times of peace, that common goal is to prepare to bust apart the enemy and leave their capacity greatly dismissed. That is when our diversity from all walks of life and colors and ancestry is our strength.

Same in high school sports. All on the same page to beat the other team. Or a company striving to be the best in the field.

No common goal, no strength. Our diversity is our strength only when we are on the same team striving together for the same goal. Out of many, One. Otherwise, diversity is a solvent to dissolve our ties that bind.

[Paul Emery]

Also we paid bounties for Indian scalps in California. This was their homeland and heritage that we invaded and stole in our greed for land and power. And of course we had God on our side despite violating what the Ten Commandments states when the it says Thou halt not steal of kill.

1852 Treaties were not ratified
1853 Extermination ordered by the State
1856 The State of California issued a bounty of $0.25 per Indian scalp
1860 The State of California increased the bounty to $5.00 per Indian scalp

https://www.tachi-yokut-nsn.gov/history

[Bill Tozer]

Wow. Talk about inflation!

1856 The State of California issued a bounty of $0.25 per Indian scalp
1860 The State of California increased the bounty to $5.00 per Indian scalp

Oh my, Paul. Are you going to kill yourself? You can have all the guilt your can hold and a whole bunch more. Now, get off my lawn and go back to your hometown and your home state.

[fish]

Posted by: Paul Emery | 15 December 2022 at 10:00 PM

Seven hours.....? Seven hours scouring the internet for something.....anything so as to not talk about the matter at hand and that's the best you could do?

Embarrassing!

[Gregory]

From punchy's history, " The state's first governor, John McDougal, famously declared, "A war of extermination will continue to we waged between the races until the Indian races become extinct."

McDougal was a Democrat. He was also wrong.

[Bill Tozer]

I have been waiting to see what anyone thinks our country will look like after four generations….the main thrust of the post. I can only tell you what I think or hope our country will look like, but it may not be close. My crystal ball is a cloudy ball.

We need to tighten the screws on illegal immigration and be a nation of legal immigrants. Ellis Island was a legal point of entry. The Emma Lazarus poem stands at a legal point of entry.

“But first and foremost, to implement any of these factors into an immigration policy that sustains America, we have to secure our borders. This is also understood by our neo-Marxist and anti-American elites who will fight tooth and nail to maintain our borders in their current dysfunctional state that promotes, nay invites, the uncontrolled invasion by millions of illegals who will implant their own counter-cultures in this fair land.”-gjr
—————
I get where Paul Emery is coming from. America has never been great. Walls are bad. I do not agree, but I get it. Now we must atone for sins of people none of us have never met. We must erase our borders…er…our Southern Border to amend how we treated the Native Americans?

What should be our legal immigration policy is to ask what are the chances of any legal immigrant making it and being successful in the United States. Sure, as the Nation that takes in more legal immigrants from across the globe than any Nation on Earth, we have made allowances for asylum and humanitarian policies for some.

Looking at the hordes ready to cross the border at any spot other than a legal point of entry and with the El Paso sector in mind, reports are in some clusters the soon to be illegal aliens are mostly Nicaraguans. The illegals cannot be deported to Mexico because Mexico will not accept Nicaraguans. The US has no formal relations with Nicaragua, so the illegal foreign nationals from Nicaragua cannot be deported to their home—Nicaragua.

95% of the asylum claims will be rejected, so we are stuck with Nicaraguans who refuse to come across at a legal point of entry.

The Europeans settlers arrived well before any colony was formed. Manifest Destiny (1845) was a talking point idea after the Louisiana Purchase and before The War Between the States. The Native Americans received the right to vote (citizenship) in 1924. The first ones here were the last ones to receive citizenship. Thank you Calvin Coolidge.

So, to atone for all that, we must tear down our walls, have catch and release (open borders) and forsake Sovereignty?????? Sovereignty is vary vary bad. We are a vary vary bad people. Well, not me. My hands are clean

All the blood and dirt goes in Paul’s hands, not mine. A debt he can never fully repay. Altas. Lo is he. Much sorry. The border is more than he can bear. He (the Leftinistas) must must hate America and must must must must hate themselves terribly to atone for the sins of his people, his fathers.

Suicide is an option to t(e self-loathing. Wait, it’s not him, it’s those other dudes, lol.

[Gregory]

here's the first Indian massacre listed by the wiki...

Investigators "found the remains of at least 486 people killed during the attack. Most of these remains showed signs of ritual mutilation, particularly scalping. Other examples were tongues being removed, teeth broken, beheading, hands and feet being cut off, and other forms of dismemberment. In addition to the severity of the attack, most of the people showed signs of malnutrition and many had evidence of earlier wounds, likely from other attacks."

Nasty doings. Mid-14th century AD, perhaps 150 years before Columbus sailed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crow_Creek_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_massacres_in_North_America

[Bill Tozer]

“Seven hours.....? Seven hours scouring the internet for something.....anything so as to not talk about the matter at hand and that's the best you could do?
Embarrassing”
Posted by: fish | 16 December 2022 at 06:44 AM

Anything but the topic at hand. Bingo! Bingo! Bingo! Let’s see what’s behind door #3.

I suppose that because we craved a new nation out of the New World, that means we are bad and everyone else is good. Everyone else is good except us non-colored folks. We have no right to borders, no right at all. We are berry berry berry bad people. MS-13 are good people, people on the terror watch list are good, there are no shithole countries, and all cultures are equally the same. No shithole or hellhole countries or Stone Age cultures.

Hey, man, it’s a relative and there are no absolutes….except we are absolutely bad. Got it.

[Paul Emery]

Gregory

Who cares what political party John McDougal was in. Why is it important to you? The fact is we were an invading culture engaging in a " war of extermination" as you documented.

[psfish]

Posted by: psul Emery | 16 December 2022 at 10:32 AM

Gregory

Who cares what political party John McDougal was in?

If he happened to be Republican it would be the most important thing in the world to you.

[Gregory]

That stung, did it? Good.

"We" were not an invading culture intent upon extermination. You are ignoring facts in evidence to the contrary... to wit, "American imperialism did not represent an American consensus; it provoked bitter dissent within the national polity while the Whigs saw America's moral mission as one of democratic example rather than conquest."

Lincoln was a Whig leader before he led the new Republican Party to victory in 1860. Against Democrats.

My culture is perhaps best represented by John Locke and his main American prophet, Thomas Jefferson. What's yours?

[Hunter's Hard Drive]

What is being ignored in these attempts to own the libs is that America needs millions of workers. The tsunami of immigrants is required to take care of, and replace as workers, the "bald wave" of retiring baby boomers.
The "brown wave" fear mongering is usually perpetuated by old white Euro-immmgrant inbred racial biases set loose by born again woke MAGA propaganda platforms.

[Bill Tozer]

Word of the day: perusing

“George
Your disregard for a diversity of cultures perusing their traditions, religions and customs in this country is what troubles me”
Posted by: Paul Emery | 15 December 2022 at 02:50 PM”
———
“PaulE, as usual, you are all over the place with your assertions, allegations, and questions. Can you focus a bit, and come up with a thesis about cultures….
For example, your 250pm indicates that you haven't understood a word of what I wrote in my commentary, especially…”
Posted by: George Rebane | 15 December 2022 at 08:39 PM

Word of the day:
pe·ruse
/pəˈro͞oz/
verbFORMAL

gerund or present participle: perusing
read (something), typically in a thorough or careful way.
"he has spent countless hours in libraries perusing art history books and catalogues"
examine carefully or at length.
"Laura perused a Caravaggio"

What is the opposite of perusing?
Opposite of to examine carefully or at length. neglect. overlook. skim. ignore.

For example, your 250pm indicates that you haven't understood a word of what I wrote in my commentary - what!!?
Lack of purusing

[fish]

Posted by: Hunter's Hard Drive | 16 December 2022 at 10:54 AM

Every progressive….desperately wanting to be a welfare recipient in their dotage.

[Bill Tozer]

Hunter's Hard Drive @ 10:54 am

True, we need workers. We need skilled workers, people who speak English (the language of commerce ), people who can read and write, people with skills we need, no criminal records, and also laborers.

The point I wish to made is we, as a sovereign nation, should be able to welcome workers of various skills we are short into the nation through a good orderly process known as legal immigration. We can sort out those who have a reasonable chance to be successful here, which is fair not only to the host nation, but to the immigrant as well.

What I oppose is millions of illegals being forced upon this nation with knowing who they are, their background, their skills, etc.
Tell me how a 53 year old single mother of two who is uneducated, illiterate in her native tongue and whose only skill is making hand made tortillas s going to now be a burden on the USA. Yes, we need those who can make home made rolled tortillas, but does, say, Nevada County need 50 or them? How many carpenters do we need? Lab techs? Truck drivers. Do we need 50 plumbers for a town/area that can only support 9?

Better economic opportunity is not a valid reason for immigration to the USA. Legal immigration involves both parties. The immigrant who applies to be welcomed/invited in and the host country (USA) that welcomes/invites the immigrant in. Workers are given Green Cards which is another name for Permanent Resident Status…with restrictions.

Yes, we need workers. My beef is for those who push their way in….line jumpers if you will, to shove their way into our country without regard to our legal orderly process. All nations on Earth have jails and prisons because all nations on Earth have bad actors…criminals, cheats, and behave outside the norms of the law. From pickpockets to rapists to the criminally insane. Thus, there is a vetting process. Good grief, we have enough home grown murderers and cheats and pushers and anti-social types of our own.

Good Orderly Direction vs chaos, turmoil, carnage. Chaos is what is expected next week as 100,000 line jumpers per month with no regard to our laws or society come pouring in between legal points of entry.

PS: illegals from Red China cannot be deported back…the CCP refuses to take them back.

[Gregory]

Let's have free and unfettered immigration, assuming good character (no arrests) and a bachelors degree in physics, chemistry, mathematics or engineering (all types). Everyone else wait in line.

Ooops, that would drive down the wages of people like me and my kid. Scratch that.

[Paul Emery]

George and Bill

I'm just putting things in perspective that our "road to freedom" included brutality, slaughter and looting to the cultures that already lived here. Even more disgusting is the notion that we were supported and encouraged by some Christian God or whatever in our pursuit of wealth and power leaving genocide and destruction in our path.

[Gregory]

Even more disgusting that that, Punchy, is your ignorance of our history of the past 6 million years or so.

There's an australopithecine in all of us.

What you are doing is judging the past by the standards of the present, and conveniently putting yourself on the side of goodness and light in your faulty storytelling.

Can you repeat after me... the doctrine of manifest destiny was never universally held in the USA?

[Paul Emery]

Gregory

Are you able to deny that the "doctrine of manifest destiny" was the driving force behind our possessing and annexing all the lands west of the Mississippi making them part of the United States of America? How can you justify, for example, that the State of California supported bounties for the scalps of native people in what is California? Also can you show me one President who didn't support the process of westward expansion and genocide against the Native Peoples during our "destiny" to control the lands and cultures that occupied the land previous to us invading and taking it over?

[Gregory]

"the driving force"? Where is your proof that is true?

Again, you've not responded at all to this quote:
"American imperialism did not represent an American consensus; it provoked bitter dissent within the national polity while the Whigs saw America's moral mission as one of democratic example rather than conquest."

I'm more of a Whig than you are, Punch. Many real Libertarians are.

[Paul Emery]

Gregory

I'm looking at the end result. Manifest Destiny was fulfilled was it not? Hoe does the ol' song go?

"America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!"

And what is this "God" thing praising the slaughter and genocide of the true Native Americans"

God shed his grace on thee

Does that not imply god blessing Wounded Knee for example?

[Gregory]

"American imperialism did not represent an American consensus; it provoked bitter dissent within the national polity while the Whigs saw America's moral mission as one of democratic example rather than conquest."

[Bill Tozer]

The G word: fingernails on the blackboard. SCREEEECH.

I get it Psul. Before we can move from point A to point B, we must first go back to point L and point T. Ready to move forward, yet?

I did find Gregory’s 8:23 am fascinating. Delicious. Before one European invader arrived. This is how it was…..point W.

“here's the first Indian massacre listed by the wiki...
Investigators "found the remains of at least 486 people killed during the attack. Most of these remains showed signs of ritual mutilation, particularly scalping. Other examples were tongues being removed, teeth broken, beheading, hands and feet being cut off, and other forms of dismemberment. In addition to the severity of the attack, most of the people showed signs of malnutrition and many had evidence of earlier wounds, likely from other attacks."

Nasty doings. Mid-14th century AD, perhaps 150 years before Columbus sailed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crow_Creek_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_massacres_in_North_America
Posted by: Gregory | 16 December 2022 at 08:23 AM

Now, what’s your take on unsecured US borders? Should we tear down all sections of the Wall Trump put up? What is the way to fix millions coming through over breaches? How to best plug the biggest gaps? Should we even want to plug the biggest gaps?

Keep looking for that perfect President, the perfect nation, the perfect world. It will never exist on Earth because of bad hombres. Some are not as spiritually advanced as you and it’s a good thing you shoot blanks.

[Gregory]

Take a literate people with a mastery of 19th century science and engineering away from a stultifying crowded Europe and let them loose on a continent sparsely settled by aboriginal hunter-gatherers... putting my George Carlin hat on, the result will not require an all powerful invisible man in the sky to forsee.

The result you refuse to see is that the carnage stopped, and California now has more indigenous peoples than any other state.

[fish]

Posted by: Gregory | 16 December 2022 at 03:25 PM

The result you refuse to see is that the carnage stopped, and California now has more indigenous peoples than any other state.

Yeah but that means that psul would have to concede the point. Once that happens he’s just another old guy who made questionable life choices.

No more moral superiority.

[Bill Tozer]

If you told me this would have fit anywhere near being on topic two days ago, I would not believed you. Yet, here we are.

'White supremacy': Presentation at Washington governor’s summit condemns objectivity, individualism
Gov. Jay Inslee warned, "We don’t break centuries of habit and thinking, unless we decide to break the chains of that history."

It listed such values as “Objectivity”; “Individualism”; “Perfectionism”; “Worship of the written word”; and a “Sense of urgency.” The presentation advocated that these values be replaced by “indigenous relational pedagogy.”

https://justthenews.com/nation/states/center-square/white-supremacy-presentation-inslee-equity-summit-damns-objectivity

Ah, time to have a moment of silence for the Polyps

[Gregory]

Inslee's The Evergreen State College's intellectual meltdown continues with Critical Theorists on top having their way with Western norms of truth, justice and the American way.

[Bill Tozer]

First New York City cries for help, the Gavin, now Denver. Just pick up the phone and call the White House.
"Hello, this is the White House. The border is secure. We are unable to take your call. Please try again later." dial tone.

https://www.rmpbs.org/blogs/news/migrants-arirve-in-denver-city-creates-emergency-shelter/

[Gregory]

lest i be pilloried for incorrect cultural appropriation... happy saturnalia everyone!
https://reason.com/volokh/2022/12/17/happy-saturnalia-6/

[Jose Koyote]

Border disaster is not an act of God — it’s an act of Biden

https://nypost.com/2022/12/16/border-disaster-is-not-an-act-of-god-its-an-act-of-biden/

[Smokeshow]

The latest narrative attempts to equate border crossing with drug smuggling. If true it would be a simple matter to search the luggage of the people crossing the border into our country. The TSA screens over a million passengers a day. The people crossing the border aren't checking any luggage. Statistics indicate 2 million people crossed the border this year. TSA could have cleared them of drugs in a couple days.
The border patrol is either incompetent or has been bought off by the cartels.

[Don Bessee]

WTF is that @1248 how does the TSA fit into the open border reality and creepy grampa joes team has all the agents babysitting the tsunami instead of protecting the border. That was a joke right?

;-)

[Bill Tozer]

Don @ 4:14 pm

WTF is correct. We are talking about hordes of illegals invading our country like a locus swarm over the southern border and Smokeshow is talking about the TSA/customs at airports?

Most of the fentanyl seized that enters the USA is from vehicle traffic via our border checkpoints one agent says. If very well disguised, checking luggage will not help. Too well concealed. As far a foot traffic goes, the smugglers wait for a couple hundred or more illegal unvaccinated uneducated foreign nationals to cross, which of course draws all agents in the area to process and transport them. That is when the cost is clear and the drug smugglers waltz right on it without an agent in sight.

Smokeshow sounds about as informed as that dipshit who said Bongino and somebody were banned by New Twitter, lol. Sounds more like Kenny Jonesy or Mr. Dick Howler, or Ms. Cooked….who said CNN will bust at the seams and grow, grow, grow.

Why we entertain such fools shows our higher character. May be never be like them.

[Bill Tozer]

Anyone who claims the border is open They say anybody who claims that the border is open “is doing the job of smugglers and is peddling misinformation. Back to you.”

FOX NEWS: CBP SEIZES 230,000 FENTANYL PILLS AT BORDER IN ARIZONA
‘62 pounds of meth and 13 pounds of cocaine seized by CBP officers in three separate incidents there’ [just since last Thursday]

https://news.grabien.com/story-fox-news-cbp-seizes-230000-fentanyl-pills-at-border-in-arizona

Wow. I am doing the work of smugglers and am peddling misinformation. Yes, I am that important. Back to you in the TSA booth, Snortshow.

[Gregory]

“The problem isn’t that Johnny can’t read. The problem isn’t even that Johnny can’t think. The problem is that Johnny doesn’t know what thinking is; he confuses it with feeling” – T. Sowell

Sowell meant to write Paul.

[The Estonian Fox]

From the Gatestone Institute-
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/19217/britain-multiculturalism-islam

"Fewer than half the people in England and Wales are now Christian, the recent census revealed, with atheism and Islam gaining ground. For the first time since the 7th century AD, England is no longer majority-Christian. That was 1,300 years ago, when the islands were converted from paganism to Christianity. In 2011, in the previous census, Christians numbered 59% of the population. Now, they number 46%."

The former Archbishop of Canterbury, Lord Carey, warned that Christianity "is a generation away from extinction".

We now face the aging and self-destruction of the Christian populations of the Enlightenment and their religious and cultural traditions; the exponential growth of Islam; the elites celebrating multiculturalism rather than working for the integration of minorities, and overturned demographics. What could possibly go wrong?"

Fortunately, that can't happen here in America. Or at least not until 3322 AD. I was worried there for a minute.

[Paul Emery]

Yeah Gregory it took a lot of deep thinking by the highly intelligent to come up with Trump as President. Hows your Trump Digital Trading Card collection doing?

[Gregory]

I see you're still pretending that I'm a Trump supporter in order to damage my reputation.

We'll chat soon. Want to go target shooting?

[Gregory]

In the meantime, you were the idiot using the lyrics of America the Beautiful, written by a reputed lesbian professor of English years later, trying to prove Manifest Destiny was universal and the reason the first governor of California, a Democrat, had declared war against native peoples.

[Bill Tozer]

Well, the mayor finally switched his tune.

Not Safe’: El Paso Mayor Declares State Of Emergency Over Border Crisis

https://www.dailywire.com/news/not-safe-el-paso-mayor-declares-state-of-emergency-over-border-crisis

Let’s do the math. Projected 15,000 illegal entrances a day works out to 100,000 per week.

[Bill Tozer]

Abbott Sounds The Alarm About The End Of Title 42: ‘Total Chaos…Catastrophic’

“Abbott called on President Joe Biden to enforce the existing laws. Earlier this month, a federal judge blocked the administration from ending Trump’s “Remain in Mexico” program, which sent some non-Mexican migrants to Mexico while awaiting immigration hearings rather than being detained or released in the U.S.

“If the President steps up and does his job, required by the Constitution and required by the federal courts, and enforces Remain in Mexico, that would have the same level of effectiveness as keeping Title 42 in place,” said Abbott.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/abbott-sounds-the-alarm-about-the-end-of-title-42-total-chaos-catastrophic

[Bill Tozer]

Narcan could be required by California in gas stations, schools following rise in fentanyl deaths

https://justthenews.com/nation/states/center-square/narcan-could-be-required-california-gas-stations-schools-following-rise

[Smokeshow]

Thanks for making my point about the rightwing propaganda equating smuggling drugs with immigration yesterday evening.
Don't rightwingers get tired of rebooting the same old Trump lies and being fact checked?
And let's not talk about the demand in El Norte for workers and drugs. That's the Mexican's fault, of course.

[Gregory]

shitshow 106p

"Thanks for making my point about the rightwing propaganda equating smuggling drugs with immigration yesterday evening."

Most migrants don't smuggle, illegal migrants do. You know, "criminals".

Don't try to fight "rightwing propaganda" with baldfaced leftwing/progressive/Marxist propaganda.

[Bill Tozer]

@ 1:06 pm

It’s hard to have an intelligent conversation on the specific topic our border crisis if you refuse to differentiate between illegal aliens and legal immigrants.

Sure, the old “if there was not a market for ______,, then we would not have the drug problem. Fill in blank with cocaine and the cocaine wars, heroin…black tar heroin, Angel Dust, etc. The initial COVID first wave sure killed the demand for Corona cerveza.

The Cartels own the fentanyl traffic and the human trafficking (smuggling) traffic, as well as the child sex slave traffic. The Cartels now control about 1/3 to 1/2 to more of Mexico’s terroritory.

And the Cartels now control some areas on the US side of the border, aka, sacred ground.

[Paul Emery]

Gregory writes: "My culture is perhaps best represented by John Locke and his main American prophet, Thomas Jefferson."

Well we have something in common supporting Thomas Jefferson who was a deist during the time of the writing of the Declaration of Independance.
Have you by any chance read "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth" sometimes referred to as the Jefferson Bible?

http://www.mauropesce.net/IT/attachments/article/176/Th%20Jefferson,%20The%20Life%20and%20Morals%20of%20Jesus%20of%20Nazareth.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

[Bill Tozer]

“Yeah Gregory it took a lot of deep thinking by the highly intelligent to come up with Trump as President. Hows your Trump Digital Trading Card collection doing?

Posted by: Paul Emery | 18 December 2022 at 08:52 AM”

Well, this has been enlightening…not! Paul has covered the slaughter of the indigenous peoples, the Manifest Destiny, the first CA Governor putting a bounty on Ca Indians, the usual anti-God anti-Christian rant, the song ‘America’ (God shed his grace on thee) and now the election of Trump and Trump digital trading cards. I probably missed some things, none of which is on topic.

Opps. It’s on topic because Paul says it’s on topic. Hmm. Hey, what did Horace Greeley say? “Go west, young man.” Total anti-slave dude.

Good job Paul. Everything but the topic.

Me thinks Paul’s quiver was empty before his first comment.

At least Newsom is crying for help because the waves of illegals are going to break California’s bank. Unsustainable thang.
—————
How the Native Americans treat other tribes got we thinking. If Paul was a Native American whom other Native Americans captured and whose tongue being removed, teeth broken, hands and feet being cut off, and other forms of dismemberment, how in the heck could he play is guitar or type or post a comment here. Don’t think even the best dictation software could decipher his words. Opps, off topic.

Trump digital cards? Lol.

[Bill Tozer]

We are on uncharted territory, folk.

Gall out in the ‘open’ at the US border

https://nypost.com/2022/12/17/gall-out-in-the-open-at-the-us-border/
A couple of nuggets:

“For generations, immigrants from around the world played by the rules, but now on a presidential whim, there are no rules. Get here however you can and the door is wide open.”
———-
“Of course, there was a second ring of protection provided by the left-leaning media. If you only read The New York Times or Washington Post and watched CNN and MSNBC, you probably didn’t know anything about the nonstop caravans crossing the border or that the number of crossers exceeded 5 million people.

The only thing you would have been told was that “MAGA” Republicans and “right-wing media” outlets like Fox News and The Post were “bashing immigrants” who were simply looking for a better life.

So, in coming days, as Title 42 expires and the caravans multiply, remember the greater truth the whole episode has revealed: The mainstream media and the Biden White House are America’s largest sources of lies and misinformation.”

Bonus!! Don’t forget the WH said, “anybody who claims that the border is open “is doing the job of smugglers and is peddling misinformation.”

[Gregory]

Punchy, i am not interested in a deep dive into deism.

Have you actually read Locke's Two Treatises on Government?

The are the foundation of classical liberalism.

Go read.

[Bill Tozer]

ABC's Raddatz Blames Trump, DeSantis & Abbott for Border Crisis

“According to Raddatz, Republicans stating aloud the fact that the border isn’t secured, is the reason for the border crisis, not the fact that the border is unsecured.”

https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/kevin-tober/2022/12/18/abcs-raddatz-blames-trump-desantis-abbott-border-crisis

[Gregory]

"Well we have something in common supporting Thomas Jefferson who was a deist during the time of the writing of the Declaration of Independance."

We have nothing in common, punchy. You have a superficial interest in Jefferson as a foil against modern Christians, a group i choose to have peaceful coexistence with.

Now, get back to the subject at hand.

[Paul Emery]

Gregory

How can you possibly say you hold Jefferson as an "American Prophet" and not read " "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth"

[Gregory]

Easy, Punchy. I was speaking of Jefferson as a prophet of the father of enlightenment liberalism... John Locke.

As the author of the Declaration of Independence.

As the author of America.

I even f'in spelled it out for you, Paul, but you're so bloody single minded.

[Paul Emery]

Gregory

But you never read "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth"

I sent you the link. Check it out. Basic reading for any American Historian.

[Gregory]

I knew it existed, Punch, and it has less to do with our form of government than Jefferson's recipe for macaroni and cheese.

I also doubt you've read it.

[Don Bessee]

Ditto @1017 LOL

;-)

[Bump Bump]

“If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.” Jesus of Nazareth

“Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.” Jesus of Nazareth

[Steve Frisch]

"....written by a reputed lesbian...."

Gregory, I am wondering of what relevance the point that Katherine Lee Bates was "reputedly" a lesbian has to your argument above that citing America the Beautiful is a poor choice of proof points?

[George Rebane]

SteveF 849am - Steve, have you ever considered the alternative to your implied allegation of homophobia? There is not a single news or commentary program in the land, aired or printed, that does not mention the non-heterosexual preference of notable persons reported on. It is always stated that this or that individual, officer, politician was 'gay', 'lesbian', ... . That inclusion may be specious or even gratuitous, but it is the custom of today's reportage culture.

[Steve Frisch]

Posted by: George Rebane | 20 December 2022 at 09:39 AM

So first, no that is not the standard today, the standard is the media mention the sexual preference of a subject if the subject mentions it.

Second, there is no historical consensus that Ms. Bates was a lesbian, it is in dispute, and a very strong case could be made that she was either asexual or even heterosexual, but did not marry due to her tenure track at Wellesley that at time did not allow married female professors.

And third, the homophobia of the audience here is not really in dispute, it simply is, as evidenced by the massive chip on your shoulder. :)

All that grievance is bad for your health George.

[Gregory]

Some of my best friends have been lesbians, Stevie, and in general, the standard for 'outing' is that conservatives get outed by media if it strengthens a case against them.

It is more likely the long deceased Bates would not be tarnished, as a former Wellesley professor, by being thought of as possibly lesbian.

Professor Bates wrote the words to a syrupy song pushed by Punchy as proof of Manifest Destiny being a universal in the 19th century... you tap dance around that claim.